NYT becomes Korean political battleground. Again.

A group of Korean-Americans in Los Angeles has placed a full-page ad in the New York Times blasting the Park administration for a) its handling of the Sewol disaster and b) weakening democracy in Korea.

You can read a pdf of the ad here. The group that released the ad has more stuff in English at their website and at their Indeigogo page. The campaign apparently began on MissyUSA, a site for Korean immigrant women in the United States that, last time I remember reading anything about them, was where some folk were conducting a signature campaign against the KORUS FTA in 2011.

Needless to say, how you feel about said ad largely depends on your political bend:

The ad got a mixed response back in Korea. While conservatives condemned it as treachery and an act of agitation, liberals claimed the Park administration deserves such humiliation abroad given the extent of its wrongdoings.

The ruling Saenuri Party yesterday expressed concerns about the campaign overseas, defining it as “instigation.”

“When some people believe that political factions are trying to instigate the public, we need to be much more cautious,” Hwang Woo-yea, president of the party, told the members of its Supreme Council yesterday. “I am extremely worried that those factions are perpetrating various acts of sedition via overseas media.”

According to reports, Korean-American opinion about the ad is divided, too. I find it hard not to sympathize with “John” here:

”I understand people are angry. We are all furious about the tragedy, but what do we get out of publicly condemning the government in a New York Times ad? What’s with all these New York Times ads anyway?’’ says John, 44, a PR firm executive in New York who didn’t want to disclose his last name.

”Being in the marketing and public relations industry, I know that this newspaper ad is going to do very little to help organizers get what they want,’’ he said.

Other overseas Korean groups will release statements of their own refuting the NYT ad.

I’m sort of frustrated with everybody involved in this story. I actually agree with the folk who posted the ad that there are journalistic practices that need improving and the government’s handling of both public relations and the press has been, as usual, hamfisted. I’d love to learn more about what happened to a Korean-German journalist who was allegedly harassed by the Korean embassy after writing something critical of the government in Die Zeit. That said, I’ve read so much bitching about what the government did or didn’t do during and after the sinking that if the government really is trying to control and sensor the media, it’s doing a piss poor job of it.

And I’ll be honest—the Sewol sinking is starting to remind me a lot of another recent maritime outrage, the 2010 sinking of the Cheonan. And by that, I mean that just as everybody became an expert on naval engineering and forensics in the aftermath of the Cheonan sinking, now it seems everybody’s an expert on maritime search and rescue. Do I think the government is being 100% honest about the sinking? No. Do I think Park’s detractors really know what they are talking about? No, I don’t think anybody knows at this point. Do I think the government is trying to spin events to minimize the political damage? Yes. Do I think certain elements of the opposition are cynically using the tragedy to attack the government politically? Yes. Do I think the NYT ad represents said cynical use of the tragedy to score political points against the government? Yes. Do I think the government, its paranoia heightened, may react to the ad in a way that at least partially justifies the complaints made by the people who ran it? Yes.

Like I said, it’s pretty much all bad.

(HT to the folk who sent me links)

  • madar

    I’m started to get pissed off about this now. It has turned from a tragedy into a full scale mob justice witch hunt now. They are thinking of arresting rescue workers for manslaughter now for not entering the rooms of a sinking ship and lacking the ability to teleport instantly to the disaster location. This is far beyond reason.

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/116_157013.html

  • Wedge1

    Listen to the PR guy.

  • flyingsword

    Amazing how well the nK agents work in South Korea, even more amazing the South Korean population rises to take the bait every time.

    All these people protesting and calling for everyone’s head on a pike, I wonder how many of them run red lights, do not buckle their kids in the car, drive drunk?

    The truth of this accident it reflects the Korean mentality to safety and following laws. Safety is an after thought, if thought of at all and following laws/regulations that inconvenience them is not required.

  • flyingsword

    Oh, first rule of live saving, don’t become a victim yourself.

  • Lliane

    Now Asan, South Chungcheong, can be called the Korean Pisa

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/511_157030.html

  • MikeinGyeonggi

    I’m extremely disappointed with the NYT for printing this. Can you just pay a prominent newspaper of record to run any paranoid, opportunistic political ad? I must admit, I haven’t read the NYT in quite a few years, so maybe this is par for the course.

    I completely agree that SK’s manipulative media and suppressed freedom of speech should be made known to the world. But blaming a specific presidential administration for not being able to rescue passengers from a capsized vessel in cold, turbulent waters off a rural coast?? Perhaps I hold the Times’ readers in too high esteem, but I imagine many readers will be scratching their heads at this.

    How about instead we look around us, at this widespread culture of broken rules and indefensible disregard for safety, and ask ourselves how we can prevent an entirely preventable tragedy like this from happening again.

  • Wedge1

    Are you kidding? The NYT can use all the revenue it can get.

  • Ewnerd Nasalo

    I don’t think too many are scratching their heads at this, but rather I
    take a different objection that has not yet been mentioned.

    I
    think arguments over politics need to be kept in their respective
    countries media. Perhaps exceptions to this are anarchist states and
    third world countries that actually need advocacy. But seriously, Korean
    political garbage need not be pissed in America’s latrine. It’s
    advocacy to the wrong people, and like you mentioned, it doesn’t have
    much of an effect other than make otherwise ignorant readers dubious
    about Korea’s political stability.

    I had the same criticism of
    Obama when he went globetrotting during his first presidential campaign.
    This kind of attempt at international exposure doesn’t really reach
    anyone who actually votes or (presumably) makes campaign donations.
    Rather it just serves to tarnish reputations abroad, and I’d sooner
    think its reputation of the entire nation rather than a sole politician
    or party.

  • Seoulgoodman

    I remember seeing on the news a few years a story about a building (in Seoul, if I’m not mistaken) that fell on its side on a windy day. Turns out the foundations were only about a foot deep.

  • Seoulgoodman

    Well, I think these sort of ads have for effect of making Koreans look bad.

    PS. And the NY Times only? That seems so very colonial of them.

  • KWillets

    Somewhere at the NYT there’s a person who answers the phone when these people call, and he takes their payment and puts it in a bank account. That’s the extent of the political battleground.

  • cmxc

    So the chickens come home to roost!

    The Korean government was all about supporting/encouraging NYT ads to popularize Korean food or bolster claims for Dokdo, but now that activists are using the NYT ads to criticize the buffoonery and corrupt practices of the Korean status-quo, it’s considered an instigation and an act of sedition!

    I don’t have to criticize Koreans because they are showing their true colors so the whole world can see just how unbelievably screwed up Korea is and how desperately in need of change.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Keeping it in perspective means:
    (if we are talking about PR)

    The PR damage done by the Sewol disaster and the handling of it with everybody dying who did not have to >> The PR damage done by NYT ad.

    As for the actual damage, has anybody died from the ad?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And I agree about the morons who take out these ads, be it 독도, Comfort Women, 비빔밥, 동해, anything..

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Also the last time I was reading about MissyKorean, it was supportive comments for the intern against Park’s spokesman who had no panties on as he opened the door of his hotel room to her, yes the same guy who packed his bags and left early to do a runner to Korea before schedule.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    You, like many others in your circle are in danger of equating legitimate investigation results which is against Park government to ploys by government detractors.

    감사원 is a government body. One does not have to be an expert to know that 45minutes+ was quite a long time for kids who were all alive to be texting and filming to crawl out of cabins..

    http://news.donga.com/Main/3/all/20140512/63398019/1

    In the past, 해경 has concentrated on dealing with rough illegal Chinese fishermen.

    At the moment, the Chinese are sweeping 싹쓸이 ing the area using this chance. The Marine Police should immediately go back to their original everyday jobs.

    http://article.joins.com/news/article/article.asp?total_id=14594802&ctg=1200%20%20&cloc=joongang|home|newslist1

    Also, they should seriously think about strengthening their non-existent rescue operations protocol, if not relinquish it to some new body.

  • http://www.zenkimchi.com/FoodJournal ZenKimchi

    I had to read it again before I remembered that men wear panties in Korea.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Yes they do:

    http://news.hankooki.com/lpage/society/201404/h2014043014234521950.htm

    The captain of Sewol also escaped 팬티바람으로 (attired only with “panties” or something similar)
    It used to be 빤스 but maybe they stopped saying it thinking it was a bastardized Japanese/English word.

  • Seoulgoodman

    These ads are meant to generate buzz in South Korea. It’s shameless self-promotion at the expense of Korea’s reputation.

  • I AM IN ODE

    “Geun-hye, like Monday!”

  • brier

    After reading the advert for the over throw of the current administration and the vague and generalized accusations in it, I think the only hope they have is to take a page of current Thai democrat practices.

    Embarrassing.

  • JW

    Like Yuna said, this can also be accused of engaging in false equality reporting due to political bias. There’s plenty you can read about that topic from paul krugman.

  • Aja Aja

    The first ever fire drill at COEX Mall attracted only one third of the people inside the building the other two thirds who work in the building, didn’t even bother to participate. They would have blamed the government if there was a tragedy there. But it tells you what the mentality is. Safety starts with each and every one of us. In their quest to drive out this government, they’re redirecting the focus from the real problems, entirely onto the government. But even if the other party and Moon Jae In was in charge, would it have made any difference?

  • Aja Aja

    Nobody really cares about the ads. All it will do is it will make South Korea confused with North Korea, even more. They should have donated that money they collected, to the family members of the dead, instead of donating to NYT.

  • Aja Aja

    Under severe political pressure from the media and the public, they’ll find the scapegoats that they want, and once again, sweep the real problems under the carpet. Firing and arresting people that got thrown under the bus, is not a true fix.

  • Aja Aja

    It takes some outside perspectives to put everything into perspective.

    http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/113_157031.html

    They all have good points, but I particularly liked these:

    Salmon: I believe the democracy we find in Korea is clearly a miracle. Politicians, regulators, public services and civil servants, they are, broadly, accountable. Maybe not as accountable as they ought to be, but still, they are accountable. On the other hand, there are other sectors in the Korean society, particularly big business, which is completely not accountable. Their leadership is very bad. This is the problem of the shipping company and the crews. The government came in here to clean all the mess. But the government was the one who’s taking criticism the most, which surprises me. And I think the navy divers and the Coast Guard rescuers themselves did a fantastic job. If you know about rescuing, it’s incredibly dangerous work.

    Oh: So many of them went underwater to recover the remains of more than 200 passengers who have been unaccounted for. The divers even dared death to do this, throwing all the safety regulations away, only to recover the remains.

    Breen: People there threw a bottle of water at the prime minister, shouting. In my country, that would not happen. And somebody would stand out and say, “On behalf of the families, Mr. Prime Minister and Ms. President, I’d like to thank you for all you’ve done. We don’t want any divers to die.” In Korea, there’s the recognition that no one’s going to listen if people don’t protest or kick up a fuss. But then, my wife explained to me the Korean point of view. I came to understand that there are good reasons that happened. And one of the reasons was the mentality of government officials — if you don’t behave in a certain manner, they’re not doing their best.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Aja Aja, I think so far only you are the one who keeps on mentioning 문재인’s name. That is the crux of the current government’s problem. They keep likening it to a political crusade against themselves from the opposition party supporters when the majority has been criticism against the current one, and little else. When 문재인 or whatever-the-cat-dragged-in gets into power next, they will be held liable for the disasters that happen during their time, fair and square.

  • MikeinGyeonggi

    I agree, except that the Korean media wouldn’t allow for this type of political dissent to get published.

  • Aja Aja

    Anyone with even a cat’s brain can see what’s happening here, with blaming the government for not being able to rescue the trapped people AFTER the ship capsized and sunk. Look at the NTY ad again, Yuna. It says it right there. If Moon was in power, there would have been no ad in the NYT, and the brunt of the people’s anger would have been redirected to the US military in South Korea.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    No. There is an ongoing investigation carried out by the government to account for the timescale and the 해경’s failure to rescue the people from the time they arrived until the boat fully capsized. That you don’t even need a cat’s brain to acknowledge.

    This is on top of all the bungling up of failing to notify/noticed by the 진도 control tower for anything entering their area, and the systematic way this was being carried out within the marine police and crew.

    From the beginning it was not about silly people saying “divers not doing their jobs properly” .One should not try to divert the attention away from what’s blatantly wrong.

    I haven’t read the NYT ad, but I have not read 독도 or Comfort Women ad in it either.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And mentioning US military in South Korea?

    Your *would have done* *could have been* has been going a bit too far.

    Why up the scale of crazy so before it actually happens?
    What good is that?

  • Aja Aja

    Because it’s happened before many times.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    That’s just funny.
    If anything it brings into light the legitimacy of the past incidents.
    It sounds like 국민정서 comment.

  • Aja Aja

    Of course, the government have to investigate the haegyung, if they don’t, they get burned alive at the alter. I’m sure the coast guard could have done things better, but it’s after the fact, it’s like analyzing a baseball game and questioning the coach’s moves after the game was lost. We learn from the mistakes which were probably all systematic, and not to make the same mistakes again in the future, instead of blasting the coach and players in the media, and telling them they’re fired.

  • Aja Aja

    That’s exactly what I’m implying.

    국민정서

    Sorry, but I have no facebook account, which could be mass attacked.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Yet it does happen.

    You know that even in sports games they do blast the coach and the players and sometimes they do get fired.

    I don’t think Park should go for this.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Well you know there is another guy who just got fired from the 홍대 Arts professor post, and he said

    홍익대학교 광고홍보대학원 겸임교수인 김모씨는 지난 9일 자신의 페이스북에 “대통령이 세월호 주인인가? 왜 유가족은 청와대에 가서 시위하나? 유가족이 무슨 벼슬 딴 것처럼 쌩 난리친다. 이래서 미개인이란 욕을 먹는거다”라는 글을 올렸다.

    이어 그는 “세월호 유족에겐 국민 혈세 한 푼도 주어선 안된다. 만약 지원금 준다면 안전사고로 죽은 전 국민 유족에게 모두 지원해야 맞다”고 덧붙였다.

    from http://www.asiae.co.kr/news/view.htm?idxno=2014051310532895510

    It sounds like a lot of pre-emptive foot-in-mouth comments have emanated from those who want to protect Ms Park.

  • bigmamat

    It’s not really just about South Korea, it’s about South Korean Americans. It also gets their group recognition, for better or worse.

  • Aja Aja

    Yet the NYT Ad takers will want her gone.

    What leadership, what public servants, will do their job by taking charge of a situation and making quick decisions that will save lives in the future, without being told what to do from above (so that they can cover their asses)? They’re all going to be scared stiff that they will make the wrong decision and get blamed over it later on, if things don’t turn out the right way. This is exactly what happened to the coast guard, with the Sewol rescue. And it will happen again.

  • Aja Aja

    That’s exactly the person I was talking about. Foot in the mouth? Not really. He said the truth, unfortunately the timing was incorrect when the full witch hunt is on, and they’re all looking for someone to make a comment which could be attacked for.

  • Aja Aja

    Every time this type of ad appear in NYT, it embarrasses me to no end.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Actually, now that I was brushing my teeth, as much as I find distasteful the stupid 독도 비빔밥 Comfort Women ads before, maybe in a country where the freedom of press is felt to be compromised, maybe an ad against the government in a foreign publication is not such a preposterous thing.
    If a civilian Japanese group had taken out a Japanese ad against the government’s possible 은폐 or bungling up in the Fukushima incident that would be totally understandable.

    I mean, 독도 비빔밥 Comfort Women is pretty much the government’s voice against another country and that’s why it doesn’t sit well with me.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I think your way of thinking here is exasperating.

  • JW

    The facts are: 1) air pockets are possible. 2) the government authorities responsible relayed to the higher ups that EVERYONE WAS RESCUED during the first day, thereby giving those people a false sense of reassurance and a reason for giving up on getting serious help and equipment to the site as quickly as possible (How the fuck does this happen any way? A report that goes to the higher ups saying that everybody survived? How is that even remotely possibly unless somebody intentionally tried to misinform?)

    You mean to tell me that if it was your kid in there, you wouldn’t go bananas over that response? Yea, ok. Whatever. Fuck you.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Or as the 홍대 professor said about the victims families:

    “대통령이 세월호 주인인가? 왜 유가족은 청와대에 가서 시위하나? 유가족이 무슨 벼슬 딴 것처럼 쌩 난리친다. 이래서 미개인이란 욕을 먹는거다

  • RElgin

    This is about the lack of credibility and reform.
    The chickens are coming home to roost.

  • A Korean

    Maybe you guys living there know the answer.

    It’s been more than two weeks – no possibility of survivors in ship at this point.

    Why aren’t they pulling up the ship yet?

  • RElgin

    Exactly.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Somebody is quite a silly person.
    The *Korean point of view* is that Sewol Tragedy would not have happened where that somebody is from.
    You must have read countless number of “outside prespective'” in foreign publications (and not Koreatimes interviewing men with Korean wives explaining how it is to them) on this incident.

  • bigmamat
  • bigmamat

    Are you saying that people outside of Korea can’t understand government neglect, corporate greed and public complacency? Now that would be silly.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And as for his

    “On behalf of the families Mr.Prime Minister” comment

    Hillsborough anyone?

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/hillsborough/48991/jack-straw-blames-thatcher-hillsborough-police-cover

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Nono, I’m not saying that.

  • A Korean

    So is the diving operation.

    I’m showing my ignorance here, but letting the ship sink to the bottom (in a shallow water near the coast) is not an option, is it? Not to mention the fuel oil leaking out.

  • bigmamat

    Well if you look at it this way, at least Koreans are willing to take a stand on something. At least they are willing to speak up. In many ways this ad and public outrage by any Asian American is going against a western stereotype. Asians are often portrayed as the people who keep their mouths shut and defer to authority.

  • bigmamat

    You’re saying Koreans think that way?

  • bigmamat

    I read a couple of days ago that a diver had died. They have to dive with lines not tanks since the cabins are full of debris and tight spaces. I think his line got cut off. I can find that article if you’d like. It hasn’t been an easy recovery.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Nono not that either…

  • bigmamat

    I don’t understand what you are saying here….”somebody(I don;t mean you Aja Aja) is quite a silly person.The *Korean point of view* is that Sewol Tragedy would not have happened where that somebody is from, at least not in this day and age.”

  • JW

    “Do I think the NYT ad represents said cynical use of the tragedy to score political points against the government? Yes.”

    Protesting against the government’s incompetence and corruption is INHERENTLY a political action. And if you are against the political opposition getting riled up to protest at legitimate grievances, then you might as well ask for a one party dictatorship. It’s like telling one race of people, whether korean or jew or whatever, “you don’t have the right to complain about racial injustices perpetrated against your people because you are biased.”

  • bigmamat

    I think the ad also placed a lot of emphasis on the shoddy media coverage and attempts to silence the complainers. I don’t find that very strange coming from a bunch of Americans. The ad seems to be more about the dialog afterward than the tragedy itself. I don’t have a problem with that either. Nothing gets corrected without recognition and discussion.

  • Aja Aja

    It’s called an initial confusion in communication during a confusing time, when someone jumps the gun. It has happened all the time in other countries with other accidents.

  • JW

    So you’re gonna go reporting to the President without double, triple checking if a critical piece of information is correct? Highly highly unlikely. And even if not intentional, it points to gross incompetence.

  • Aja Aja

    Answer his question. Is the president the owner of the Sewol ship? The people who broke the law that was in place were the safety inspectors and the shipping company. The president cannot make the safety inspector and the shipping company to respect the laws. We can talk about tweaking the law and making it better, but it’s still no good if the people under the law will not respect the law. Why don’t the family of the dead go protest in front of the shipping company, and the safety inspectors who broke the law?

  • JW

    NK Immigrant Stooge here. His question is a non-sequitur. It’s not even worth replying to.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    What I meant to convey is the silly nature of trying to portray the Korean reaction against the government as something Breen cannot understand as a British national.

    I mean, Aja Aja linked to that as demonstrative “outside view”, we can link and highlight a piece from the Guardian article I’ve linked to and highlighted before

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/21/president-park-ferry-disaster-murder-south-korea

    It is perhaps doubtful whether, in the western world, any national leader would have survived such a delay in responding to what is undoubtedly a national tragedy, with their ratings, perhaps even their position, intact.

    This straight from the horse’s mouth. From the country of origin of many Breen’s.
    I can find many other “outside views” to put things into perspective..

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Because the families probably know that (and this is just a guess) the shipping company and the safety inspectors who broke the law probably already have the hell-and-highwater brunt of the whole government labelling them murderers and out to bung all the ills of the world onto them in order to lessen the responsibilities on themselves..

  • redwhitedude

    Oh look, they are taking out the seowul mess on the NYT subscribers. :-/

    However the Die Zeit piece is the type of critical piece that Korea needs more of.

  • Aja Aja

    Are you saying the Brits would gather in a crowd, and go mob hunting their PM, then justify a mob justice? What are you saying?

    You’re right, this is also the president’s fault.

    http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2014/05/13/2014051302352.html?news_Head1

    They rang the fire alarm, most people just ignored it. Why didn’t the government make those people take this drill seriously? Why didn’t the government do something? It’s all government’s fault!

  • JW

    They’re not only labeling them as murderers, they’re actually gonna use that law called boojakwee-eh-eui-han-sal-in (sorry no korean available at work). The word sal-in is probably a term of art here, but still, it comes pretty damn close.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And most importantly, as I have been saying from the get-go, the responsibility of most deaths lies squarely on the fact that they were not rescued.

    They really did bungle it up, the rescue operation where nobody was rescued because the people were told to sit tight.

    I mean, I never learned a protocol, but in these situations one would hope the common sense is to establish a chain of command, seek out the captain, establish who’s where, and get as many people off the boat as possible instead of letting them watch you through the window sitting there like sitting ducks on a sinking ship.. this is over more than 45 minutes.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I mean Thatcher is getting done politically many years after the Hillsborough incident, and after her death, whether rightly or wrongly for possible covering up of the police’s fault in handling of the incident.

    Your continuous defending of these government defenders and their pointing of the fingers at anything but themselves, and away from the problem but at the victims families themselves is showing to the rest of us what a lot of Koreans are angry about. I think even 바둑, that staunch right wing commenter has shown more sense than you on this incident…

    Korean people are so exasperated with the system (and yes that is represented by the government) that they do not think the tragedy would happen in other (developed) countries on this scale. It’s not about if somebody else had been in power, like you keep bringing up.

  • Sumo294

    NYT has been broke for decades. They ran glowing articles on Putin when he was paying them to.

  • Sumo294

    Yes true–the money should have gone to the kids.

  • A Korean

    I’m aware of the death of a rescue diver.

    It appears that they have not figured out how they will pull up the ship, and the diving operation is continuing out of respect for the victims’ families.

    I’m afraid more death of the rescue personnel may follow.

  • bigmamat

    But these things do happen on this scale in other countries and for pretty much the same reason. A company just poisoned the water supply of 350,000 people in the U.S. Nobody has died yet but a lot of them are sick. The company bankrupted and whatever clean up that takes place will now have to be borne by the taxpayers. Did the lack of government oversight play a role you bet. The Korean people are naturally outraged at a company gambling with the lives of it’s customers. They have a right to ask the government what role they should be playing when it comes to public health and welfare. As I watched this tragedy unfold all I could think was “welcome to America”.

  • bigmamat

    I would hope they will be more cautious now that they’ve lost another life. They will just have to be slow and methodical. The remaining families will have to wait.

  • Aja Aja

    The reason why they weren’t cautious before that diver died, was that they were criticized for being too busy trying to cover up wrongdoings and for failing to bring anyone out alive from the wreckage. They were rushed into justifying themselves. Going slow and methodical will nail a death sentence on anyone in charge of the salvage. Inevitably, someone will complain that they’re going too slow to deliberately cover up something. For sure, there will be more deaths to come, but they will be forgotten.

  • Aja Aja

    “They really did bungle it up, the rescue operation where nobody was rescued because the people were told to sit tight”

    That was the ship’s crew’s fault for instructing people to sit still against coast guard’s orders to abandon ship, not the coast guard’s fault. Even if it was the coast guard’s fault, how is that the president’s fault?

  • Aja Aja

    “I think the ad also placed a lot of emphasis on the shoddy media coverage and attempts to silence the complainers.”

    Shoddy media coverage is not the government’s or president’s fault. Attempts to silence the complainers? Oh Jesus, if you read the Korean media, there’s nothing but complaints, with complaints after complaints of how everything and everyone are bad. If they’re trying to silence the complaints, they’re doing a real piss poor job at it. But I do agree that the government has overreacted to unfounded comments and rumors and trying to clumsily defend their public PR nightmare.

    “The ad seems to be more about the dialog afterward than the tragedy itself. ”

    If you read the ad, it says the Korean government failed to rescue the trapped people inside the sunken boat. To 100% assume that there were even survivors after the ship went down, and that the government failed to bring them back alive…. is insane. I am confident that most experts will tell you, the chances of survivors existing in an air pocket on that ship was close to nil after the ship submerged. So who are we kidding here, it was already basically a salvage operation after the 2nd hour of the disaster, and it’s like blaming the government for not bringing back the dead.

  • bigmamat

    It’s a mess no doubt. I’m sure most people agree that if just one or two things would have been done differently there would not have been such a horrendous waste of life.

  • JW

    “To 100% assume that there were even survivors after the ship went down, and that the government failed to bring them back alive…. is insane.”

    I think you are jumping to the insane conclusion on your own. The ad says not a single person trapped inside the ferry due to the crew’s bad instructions were rescued by the government, even though they could have been. I agree that the statement is not entirely correct, since there were in fact a few people rescued by breaking through glass, but for the 300 that died, it is true that the government failed to rescue them. As I’m sure you are aware the prosecutor’s report concluded that the coast guard had the opportunity and ability to warn the passengers but they simply failed to do so.

  • bigmamat

    It’s an ill advised, fairly inarticulate rant I concede. I don’t know how many times I need to say here or elsewhere. There is enough guilt and outright neglect to go around with this tragedy. I don’t think Park is responsible for regulatory policies that have been in place prior to her tenure. Perhaps her party is responsible and now she’s wondering if she has to continue to “dance with them that brought me”. She may have limited direct power to effect the regulatory process anyway, if she’s like an American president. However, if that’s the case then she likely has a larger role in enforcement which appears to also be part of the current problem. She does have a mandate now to act within the scope of her actual role. If nothing else she is the president and has the loudest pulpit in the country. This could be an opportunity for her as president to show that she can lead a nation. Obviously she’s struggling.

  • Aja Aja

    No JW. Read the ad:

    “There were numerous chances to rescue children on the first day of the ferry accident; however, President Park failed to exercise her executive power and quickly organize a central emergency response unit in the days to follow.”

    Numerous chances to rescue children by exercising her executive power in the DAYS TO FOLLOW?

    Furthermore the ad says:

    “What started as an “accident” by the irresponsible captain and his crew became a “man-made disaster” by the South Korean government’s utter incompetence.”

    It was already a man-made disaster, way before the government got involved. They are now taking the captain and the crew, to minimize their responsibility, and now pinning the entire thing solely on the government, responsible for the ‘man made disaster’.

    The people who were responsible for the man made disaster were the safety inspectors (part of the government), the Sewol owners, and the ship’s crew. The focus for punishment should be on them.

    As for what the government/navy/divers/coast guards should have done and didn’t do should be subjected to review and the system should be changed or improved.
    But don’t pin the whole thing on them. For instance, the coast guards weren’t even aware how many people on the ship were onboard because they weren’t told. When they arrived, they were too busy ferrying out the people who were outside, they must have assumed that most of the people were already outside, not knowing that the crew of the ship were instructing the people to sit still.

  • Sumo294

    You blame the coast guard for the 45 minutes? Have you lost your mind? How about the captain and crew during that 45 minutes tell the kids to get the hell out of their cabins and on to the decks instead of having sexual orgies and calling the main office and telling them to rig their books. Is that too much to ask for? Is it too much to ask for Korean commie liberals to accept that the captain is a criminal? Where were the captain and crew during that 45 minutes–on shore drying their money cause their wallets got wet. from ocean spray–the crew who stayed behind died saving lives.

  • Sumo294

    Its fortunate that the commies in the ROK are so terribad at being socialists. http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2989123&cloc=joongangdaily|home|newslist1

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Absolutely. And no, not lost my mind.

    http://www.segye.com/content/html/2014/05/11/20140511003337.html

    47 minutes to be more precise.
    And so the captain and the crew will get the come-uppance, but the 200 plus people that went down unnecessarily, their deaths will be the responsibility of the awful rescue system that failed them. The typical bumbling up of disaster management which has come to represent Korea.

    The investigation is on the way by the government and we shall see the result.

  • JW

    What ad are you reading? This is the NYTimes ad that I’m talking about, that Robert’s post is talking about.

    http://www.thetruthofsewolferry.com/media_files/nyt_ad_design_final.pdf

  • Sumo294

    The 200 plus died because of a criminal captain and crew who instead of helping the passengers chose to use that time to have sexual orgies, phone the boss eight times and tell him to fake cargo data, take the first boat out, and flat out lie about their names and who they are. At shore the first thing they did was dry out their wet cash. However, some of crew stayed behind against the captain’s orders and helped saved lives. You have never on this site ever expressed your sadness over the heroic crew who stayed behind–why?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Excuse me, I believe I was the first to point and link to the heroic girl who stayed behind and died helping the other students.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXgW6NtDTsk

    47 minutes.

  • Sumo294

    Exactly–she saved lives–who do you think did not do their job–if the captain had done his duty–very few would have died. The first responder is the captain and his crew–who in this case–the captain was not at the helm but instead having a sexual orgy, standing in his underwear his first order of business was to call his boss eight times to tell to cover up data, told the passengers to stay in their cabins more than fifteen times, took the first boat off the ship and told his crew to do the same–the girl who bravely stayed behind died saving lives–how many lives did she save Yuna?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    What is your point?

    Evil captain is evil captain.

    Rotten cargo/shipping practice is rotten cargo/shipping practice.

    Incompetent rescue operation which resulted in many more deaths which could have been prevented (and currently under investigation by the prosecutors and the special government committee) is incompetent rescue operation.

    They all need to be addressed, and by saying this, what, one is politically motivated?

  • Sumo294

    The captain who was having a sexual orgy–straight out lying to the coast guard, lying about his name, lying to the passengers and telling his boss to lie instead getting his passengers off the ship is the one who killed those kids. The crew who stayed behind against orders saved lives. How many lives did that brave girl save Yuna?

  • Aja Aja

    I read it from here.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/full-page-nyt-ad-denouncing-the-south-korean-government

    Admittedly, I probably read the draft and a blog explaining the reason for the ad, and not the final draft that appeared on the paper. But my point still stands because the logic for the ad hasn’t changed.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I actually read it, thanks to you.
    It’s not that bad.

  • JW

    I agree that the writing on indiegogo is badly worded in the parts you mention and exaggerated in an irresponsible fashion. However, the ad that actually went out is correct in saying that the 300 that died should have been saved by the government response. The rescue effort and the events leading up to it was as close to a total disaster as you can get, and the government agencies were simply not prepared for it, and this is before we even get into the loosening of regulations and the general culture of dismissing safety procedures and training by the LMB government and the party that PGH has been the leader to for multiple years.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Koreans in general, along with KA ajummas, want PGH to appear in TV and sincerely apologize and assume responsibility. Any president would have done it. Including da-da Park. But, she no. She thinks she is better than anybody, just because she hobnobs with other world leaders. Marie Antoinette in Korea! If not careful, she will be kicked out.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    She always put the blame on others. Never on herself. Is this leadership? I call it finger-pointing. When a bad president sits on the throne, more chance for NK to attack. SKs are divided now along the old line of Kyengsang generals and Jolla Commies. KJU may think it is a good time.

  • Aja Aja

    Why is this ad appearing in a foreign paper? No, the explanation that they won’t get free speech in South Korea is not a good explanation.

    It’s been a month since the accident, but the nation is still awashed in anger, sadness, self doubt, and gravely traumatized and injured, as this opinion article says.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/opinion/kim-south-koreas-tragic-failure.html?_r=0

    Instead of writing accusatory ads in foreign papers, isn’t it time for Koreans to pick themselves up and go on with normal life? I’m not saying forget what happened. At least stop pointing fingers, and restart the economy. Koreans have virtually stopped all the events around the country, as the economy has come to a full stop. And there’s no laughter anymore, as the entire country is still in a state of mourning. How long is this going to go on? This country can work together to identify the problems that needs changing, and fix them for the future.

  • Aja Aja

    Go back and review the Roh Mu Hyun days. In 2003, another subway accident happened in which hundreds of people died needlessly. That too involved criticisms of firefighters for not reaching the trapped passengers. It also involved the train driver who locked the train doors full of passengers, told them to stay still, and fled the scene to save himself only. That incident too highlighted Korea’s lack of safety procedures – in tick for tack in exactly the same way the events unfolded as the Sewol incident. But one thing that was different about that case was that Roh’s administration didn’t face the same kind of public and media scrutiny. Why is that? Weren’t they responsible for the disaster? And same could be seen with the Kim Dae Jung administration, with the Sealand fire. How is it possible that those administrations were largely allowed to get away without being criticized for allowing those accidents to happen and messing up the rescue operations? After all, isn’t it all president’s fault?

    Isn’t it the case that it really doesn’t matter who’s in power at the presidential office? It doesn’t matter if the laws were strengthened or deregulated, if the people from top to bottom do not respect the laws that are there to protect the safety of the people, it really doesn’t matter what laws or regulations you have. In the end, I think it all boils down to one thing, enforcement and punishment against corruption. It wasn’t the deregulation that killed those people. It was the people who didn’t follow the law that was there, that killed the people.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    But one thing that was different about that case was that Roh’s administration didn’t face the same kind of public and media scrutiny.

    So according to your latest comment, when you are mentioning 국민정서 you are actually just applying to what you think are the anti conservative half of 국민 then.
    How ironic it is then you are decrying political motivation.

  • Aja Aja

    Nope. That’s not what I meant. But why are you equating 국민정서 with anti conservative half of 국민?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    You 운운 (go on about) 국민정서 about people blaming the government now.

    You then gave an example of a case where you deem it similar to 세월호 incident which happened during the opposition government, but then said the difference was that they did not face the same kind of public and media scrutiny.

    Therefore, it sounds like the bad kind of national characteristic/low level 국민정서 is only applied to the supporters of your political opposition by you.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    How not to be “politically motivated” in Korea.
    i.e. not to be a radical leftist with an impure intent to turn an agenda into a political one.

    http://bbs1.agora.media.daum.net/gaia/do/debate/read?bbsId=D115&articleId=2736778

    대한민국에서 정치적이지 않으려면

    즉, 불순한 의도를 갖고 사안을 정치화시키는 좌경분자가 되지 않으려면

    – 자식이 물속에 빠져 죽어도 그저 곡이나 할뿐, 진실을 물어서는 아니된다.

    – 미개한 국민이라고 손가락질하는 주류층, 그들의 사회적 공헌을 생각하여 왠만한 망발은 감수해주어야한다.

    – 물가가 올라 살림이 조여들어도, 값이 비싸니 뭐니 하는 체제불만적인, 이념적 소비행태를 하면 아니된다.

    – 사회의 모든 재난, 특히나 인재와 관재의 사안들에 대해서 콘트롤 타워가 아니라고 하는 청와대에 불만을 가지면 안된다. 죽음은 그저 캐서민들의 팔자일 뿐인것이다.

    – 자식이 억울하게 눈앞에서 죽더라도 절대로 겸허함과 예의를 갖고 울며불며 짐승처럼 소리지르지말고 차분하게 윗사람의 방문에 알현해야한다.

    – 윗분들의 치부가 눈에 밟히더라도 그것을 굳이 입에 올리는 것은 매우 정치적이다. 대한민국 체제에 도전하는 일이며 사회불안과 분열을 조장하는 행위이다. 절대로 그분들을 놀라게 해서는 안돼.

    – 재벌가문과 권력자는 면죄받고, 없는 자는 가혹하게 다루는 사법제도를 탓하면 아니된다. 국가체제에 불만 많은 종자가 될수 있다.

    – 월급쟁이라면 임금 올려달라고 하면 아니된다. 조국을 위한 희생-가난-정도는 당연한 의무이다.

    – 자영업자라면 재벌프렌차이즈나 대형유통업에 불만을 가져서느 아니된다. 그들이 너보다 세금 많이 낸단다. (근데 실제로는 캐서민들이 더 많이 낸다.)

    – 삼청동에서 누군가 대통령을 만나러 가고자 할땐 삼계탕 집에 가지 마라. 경찰이 2,3중으로 에워싸 줄것이다. (잠재적 사회불안세력이 되지 마라.)

    – 군대 다녀오는 것은 서민의 의무이다. 다만, 윗분들의 자제가 군에 안가는것을 탓하는 것은 사회불만 세력이다.

    – 세금에 대해서 찌질하게 따지지 말라. 그분들 덕에 너네들 대학나왔어~~~ 라고 어떤 할배가 말한다.(미친.ㅋ)

  • redwhitedude

    Also who is instigating this dissent? Korean Americans? Perhaps after being in the US they get annoyed at that so they take it out in the US.

  • JW

    Did you see this amazing graph that TK posted here a a few days ago? After LMB came in maritime accidents immediately more than doubled.

    http://www.index.go.kr/potal/main/EachDtlPageDetail.do?idx_cd=1621

    Go on. I’d like to see what you can make up as a non Saenuri related explanation for this. You appear to be pretty good at making things up. But goodness it really is difficult to have a conversation with people who just make shit up. So I’d like to bow out now. Good bye.

  • Aja Aja

    stupid piece. Not even worth replying.

  • Aja Aja

    I’ fully aware of that graph. It’s like the foreigner crime stats where foreign crimes rise because the number of foreigners entering Korea has risen. Again, that graph doesn’t prove it was liberalization was the fault.

  • Aja Aja

    I didn’t mention 국민정서 with any political party. What are you saying? Only liberal party members act like that?

    When I say I want Koreans to have better 국민정서, or national character, I mean putting some value in grieving with dignity, and arguing/protesting with civility. Although I sympathize with what happened to them, wailing and screaming like animals and throwing bottles at the Prime Minister, assaulting and heaping obscenities at officials who have no control over anything, and trying to march with pitchforks to hang the President on a tree, are not going to bring back the dead.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And yet you just said that this (although again, what you describe above is *your grossly partisan depiction* of the events) did not happen after the equivalent disaster in the previous opposition government.

    I fear now every time I get your comment, you are just going to say one thing closer to Jack Nicholson’s lines in A Few Good Men.

  • Aja Aja

    Look back at the NYT ads. The NYT ads in the past, included anti Mad Cow import from the US, anti-FTA with the US, and now add the Sewol disaster. I don’t know the political persuasion of the people who took out the stupid Dokdo and Bibimpab ads on the same paper, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the people with same political persuation. In Korea, the extreme nationalists and radicals are the leftists – a complete opposit of how it is in the west.

  • redwhitedude

    A really risky attempt at creating a copycat tourist attraction.

  • redwhitedude

    I wonder if they’ll print an ad from those cartels in Mexico saying that they are doing a service to american consumers and should get the DEA and homeland security off their back. NYT seems to be whoring a lot.

  • redwhitedude

    Well they should be running those ads now with the mess in Ukraine.

  • Tapp

    You sound like a broken record with all this “liberal commie” bs that gets mentioned in every one of your posts. “Sexual orgies”? Throwing out misplaced rhetoric like that makes you sound more and more like the North Koreans you claim to despise. The strange part is that I agree with everything you said in this post, but you detract from your message by throwing in the extra nonsense. cmxc does the same thing on the far left. The two of you are two sides of the same coin. Cut the hyperbole if you want anyone to take you seriously. Or don’t. I suppose you reserve the right to look like an asshat or to constructively add to the conversation.

  • Sumo294

    A lot of Koreans overseas think they are have all the privileges of criticism–but at least the commies living here will die with us if the Norks ever open up their artillery on Seoul. The Starbucks sipping NYT reading socialist socialites should donate a little to the kids instead of making their feelings understood by white liberal America. So instead of helping the kids–they feel the need to have their emotions heard and reacted to–tragedy strikes and its about them–its about what they saw and felt that day.

  • Tapp

    You keep saying “sexual orgy” (which is annoying repetitive, by the way, there is no such thing as a non-sexual orgy)… can you provide a link of some sort? I’m not defending the Captain or anything, but this is the first I’ve heard of anything sexual going on during the tragedy.

  • JW

    Dude, you are like a walking comedy show. How do you do it? I mean, come up with these batshit crazy statements in response to a deadly serious matter? And you managed to make me laugh all the while. That’s quite some skill you have.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    An orgy of violence. A spending orgy. And so on and so forth.

  • JW

    I see absolutely nothing wrong with bringing criminal negligence/manslaughter charges against the coast guard, if the prosecutor’s report is true in that they had the ability and opportunity to get in there and the knowledge that people were trapped inside, and yet failed to carry out their duties.

  • gbnhj

    Orgies are simply acts of excess. Totally possible to talk of an orgy that has no sexual component.

  • Sumo294

    Yuna knows what happened and why he was in his underwear and not at the helm–but the liberal so called “democratic” lefties in Korea are dishonest and refuse to disclose what the captain was doing in his cabin.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    If this is the first you’ve heard, you have not been paying attention. Also, be aware that “orgy” is often used to describe other things: an orgy of violence, a spending orgy, etc.

  • Tapp

    All apologies. I have always thought that the *other* orgies were derivative of the sexual one and that the phrasing was chosen specifically to invoke the sexual situations. If you remove the qualifier, would “orgy” ever be used to refer to anything other than sex?

  • Tapp

    How do you and Yuna know and no one else does? Again, I agree with your stance but the extra crap thrown in is disingenuous to my mind. Your personal imagination is the only reference I’ve seen so far.

  • Sumo294

    Well–ask her–right now.

  • jk641

    I believe it’s a figure of speech.

  • Tapp

    I’ve admittedly tuned out the last two weeks or so. The only news I’ve read has been from international publications and I guess they haven’t included any of the rumor mill stuff.

    I still stand by my statement that orgy used in regards to sex is the only usage that doesn’t require a qualifier. That makes it repetitive. If he were to use orgy in any of the ways you mention, he would need to further define the word and it wouldn’t have annoyed me so much. I wasn’t trying to grammar police, but that’s the way I came across. Sorry bout that.

  • Tapp

    I completely looked this up afterwards out of fear of being called out, but I’m pretty sure I’m still correct. A *sexual* orgy does not need the qualifier… Every other usage does. An orgy of . The word orgy as a stand alone always refers to sex making his phrase repetitive in my head. It’s no big deal, I was just reading the thread and it was used over and over again. I didn’t mean to grammar police

  • bumfromkorea

    The simple truth is that while the Sewol Tragedy isn’t President Park’s fault, it is still her responsibility. 즉, 잘못은 없지만 책임은 있는거죠. A wiser politician in her place would have apologized immediately, publicly and officially for incompetence, corruption, lack of oversight etc. etc., say a few well-written statements about expressing her 애도, and offer a specific course of action she will take as president to address the shortcomings (repeating the ones widely publicized, like investigating the Maritime Police, cracking down on the company and the maritime regulatory organizations). The “Park administrations killed these kids!” angle then would have lost its edge (nothing mutes a criticism like a public apology), and Park would have more room to maneuver.

    Instead, she and her administration has been too busy offering excuses after excuses after 변명s. Listen, in the long run, no one except the UPP was going to say that the tragedy was Park’s fault. Everyone knows it’s not Park’s fault; hell, even the parents who are specifically blaming Park right now probably knows. Park administration is the surgeon who is arguing (face turning blue) with the grieving family over how her procedures and techniques are not to blame for the death of the patient who died 30 minutes ago. Just say sorry and sympathize.

    There is political opportunism from the far left at work here, absolutely. But conservatives probably should’ve keep their mouth shut about how they’re all North Korean instigators and 좌빨종북 on this issue, because now they’re the assholes who’re calling the grieving families leftist zombies instead of letting their opponents be the cynical assholes using the grieving families for their political ends. We got Saenuri morons mouthing off in public like a bunch of Ilbe pests – one even directly accused a specific parent of being an impostor instigator.

    As for the NYTimes ad… who cares. No one reads paper news anymore. I don’t even remember the last time I saw someone actually hold a newspaper and read them in real life. Let them waste their money – NYTimes could use the money, that’s for sure.

  • redwhitedude

    What might be worse is that there might be other countries in asia that might do just that. Take ads out.

  • jk641

    47 minutes does seem like a long time.
    However..

    If you’ve actually watched the video, you’ll see that the ship was listing at a 45 degree angle when the Korean coast guard arrived.
    This made it very difficult for anyone to move around the ship.
    Even the captain of the Sewol, when he radioed the coast guard for help, said that the crew was unable to move around the ship because it was listing at such a steep angle.

    If you’re a rescuer, how would you even enter the ship?
    How do you climb a smooth deck, a 45-degree incline?
    (and getting steeper by the second?)
    It would be like rock climbing – you would need rock climbing gear, seriously.

    Once again, if you actually watch the video, the rescuers had to move very very slowly, holding onto the railing or whatever else they could grab onto.
    They had to rescue the passengers by lowering them one-by-one, by rope.

    And even if the rescuers had successfully entered the cabins, there was no guarantee that they would have been able to come out. The ship was listing ever more steeply, the situation changing by the second.

    I really wouldn’t blame the rescuers for not rescuing enough passengers. I wouldn’t do it, unless I myself had been on the sinking ferry, and I myself had found it easy to move around the ship.

    Let’s face it. It was a really sh*tty situation.

    Unless you yourself were there on the sinking ship, how could you possibly say that the rescuers didn’t do enough?

    The best possible way of saving the passengers would have been to evacuate them from the ship as early as possible, when the ship was listing at a shallow angle.
    Get them into lifeboats.

    But in order to do that, the lifeboats would have to have been serviceable, and the crew actually trained to deal with such emergencies, and the company actually to have spent some dough on safety, etc, etc..

    Or, if the lifeboats weren’t serviceable, the crew should have evacuated the passengers to the deck as quickly as possible, and when the ferry had listed too much, tell them to jump in the water.

    So the captain and crew (most of them) blew it.
    The shipping company blew it.
    The safety inspectors blew it.

    In sum, don’t blame the rescuers. Not unless you were actually there on the ferry and you have first-person knowledge what they were dealing with.

  • Aja Aja

    Well said. I can’t believe all these arm chair rescue experts who were never there, to criticize the rescue effort, when they had no ideal what was going on. It’s easy to point out the flaws, after looking at the video and have a total view from above, and say they should have done this and they should have done that. And what about all those people who were outside, are the rescuers going to ignore them and try to start entering the ship? Remember too, the rescuers had no ideal how many people were on board, and they never knew that the majority of the passengers were stay down there because the fucking crew of the ship told them all not to move. With all the missing information, the rescuers must have thought that the majority of the passengers were already out on the deck. The common sense tells you that everyone should have been out on the deck.

  • JW

    These fuckers use the North Korean insults so often that you have to wonder if they’re not secretly sending thanks to Kim Jong Eun himself for giving them such a handy tool for putting down the political opposition. It really is turning into a comedy.

  • Aja Aja

    Park apologized twice, and she will do it again third time, but this time she will announce some concrete steps to improve safety along with the another apology. But it probably won’t be accepted.

    “and offer a specific course of action”

    That’s not exactly fair, she was never given that chance to come up with concrete steps. She would have to confer with her advisors and experts to formulate concrete steps, but come on, she was accused of not doing anything in the first week of the accident. But she’s already come up with steps, which worries me because these steps need careful study and need to be examined systematically to ensure they are the right measures. Sounds like she hurriedly formulated something with half-assed responses that may worsen the situation later.

  • jk641

    Yes, it is absolutely despicable that some people are criticizing the rescue effort for political purposes.

  • bumfromkorea

    Park’s initial “apology” was in a private meeting, which is such a PR-ignorant move, she might as well not have made it. And you bet that her subsequent apology won’t be accepted. Now the public perception is “Oh, she’s just apologizing because she’s politically threatened”. She missed the golden moment when she could have actually come out on top while labeling her opponent as evil, manipulative, and cynical. Now she’s just screwed.

    That’s not exactly fair, she was never given that chance to come up with concrete steps.

    No, she clearly knew what had to be done and actually took those steps early. She should’ve hammered these points right off: “We’re going after the Maritime Police for their incompetence”, “We’re going after the Maritime Regulatory boards for their corruption”, “We’re going after the Sewol owners for their illegal operation of their ferry business”. Instead, the sound bites we got are “At least he didn’t put eggs in his ramen” and “The Blue House is not the control tower”. It’s like the 민주당 has operatives inside the Park administration specifically sabotaging all her PR coordination.

    Again, when the public opinion began to sour, she should’ve immediately and aggressively apologized publicly. That gives her the initiative and the control of public discourse. All she has done is give excuses, which is a defensive posture that gives both the initiative and the control of public discourse to her political opponent. Stupid, stupid move.

  • Aja Aja

    “She should’ve hammered these points right off: “We’re going after the Maritime Police for their incompetence”, “We’re going after the Maritime Regulatory boards for their corruption”, ”

    You expect her to announce all these in the first week of the accident, without even knowing what the problems were? You can’t just start announcing you’re going after all these people without establishing concrete information as to what went wrong. Remember, you’re saying all this after you had the privilege of watching the media reporting the stories daily for a month, with all the dirty details. But frankly I don’t know what they report are either true, or exaggerations or just rumors or what is what.

    “All she has done is give excuses, which is a defensive posture”

    She was already on a defensive stance, after being accused of not doing enough to rescue the children who were trapped in the sunken ship, and that she was using the visit to Jindo in the first week of the accident, as a publicity stunt by using an old woman pretending to be one of the families struck by the disaster. That’s the crux of the complaint against her. The fact that she didn’t apologize in time or not had no bearings on anything.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    That is what the head of any organization should do. Take the responsibility, “It is my fault when one of my subordinates make mistakes. It is MY FAULT”. That is the leadership. You will make a better leader than PGH. I remember at the time of 9/11, reporters asked the head of CIA. “who made a mistake?”. The CIA head said “it’s me. I made a mistake. Don’t blame anyone but me”. That is the leader. He never gave a name of his subordinate. He took the responsibility. PGH cannot lead. She must go.

  • Sumo294

    Bad advice–you are not from a political background. The meet and greet was necessary. The others were not and she did it against competent advice. She owns the mess cuz she is the prez–the blame train was coming for her. Stay out of sight for now and let the media slowly gravitate to the court stage and the subpoenas and indictments. The narrative will change in three months but for now she has no ability to drive a domestic agenda.

  • Sumo294

    NK can’t attack now–China wants the rail deal to go through–its why they suspended all oil to the NK–to make sure that they behave properly. I am very curious to see if the Norks test another weapon despite Chinese pressure. KJU is young and he is not building ice rinks, horse stables, malls, and ski resorts just to blow everything up this year.

  • Sumo294

    Well said–you must have some experience in politics.

  • Sumo294

    No bum is right on the money–she lacks real expertise at her cabinet level. She should have hired some KA guys to help her put her narrative out there and most certainly the turn around should have been within two days tops. Aja Aja the best guys for hire are expensive because they can get things like this done quickly and under pressure but they cost a lot of money. She is notoriously tight pursed but she should have had at least one hired gun for these contingencies–she better hire one soon. These hired guns practice for these occasions and since Katrina they have drills in place on how to proceed.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Whenever RhoMuHyen opened his mouth, I along with most Koreans, was worried. His most ridiculous quote, “NK will never use nuke on SK”. WTF! How can he guarantee that? The Jolla Commie idiot did not know what he was talking about. Pure double-eyelid frog. Now PGH says “Unification is f***ing good deal”. What is she? Some kind of a small item peddler? These two losers, along with Chun and Nho, should never have been the presidents of SK. Other better people are protecting the country while these losers are messing up.

  • bumfromkorea

    You expect her to announce all these in the first week of the accident,

    You’re missing the fact that she has already taken those steps by the time she should’ve made those statements/apologies. I expect her to announce all those because she has already done it. This isn’t a criticism against how she handled the tragedy (which, without the PR factor, was not that bad). This is about how she’s communicating with the public.

    That’s the crux of the complaint against her. The fact that she didn’t apologize in time or not had no bearings on anything.

    That Jindo visit was a PR nightmare waiting to happen. The mood there was already angry with the “officials”, and Park, the “officials” of the “officials”, with her presidential entourage + journalists just walk in there? Why?! I cannot believe she didn’t expect to be pelted with the accusation that she’s just there for photo op, especially when one of her cabinet member was being publicly crucified for taking a commemorative picture in front of the list of deceased.

  • Sumo294

    I know the Norks have the will to use nukes, but its not this year. Ever since Clinton came within 15 minutes of bombing the Norks–the elites in Korea and big business have developed their own risk management protocols for asset management in the ROK. You will see a nosedive in certain commodities and stocks days before imminent possibility hit the fan.

  • Aja Aja

    If she didn’t go to Jindo, she would have been accused of not caring about the people and the accident, and the fallout would have been just as bad, if not worse. She would have been accused no matter what she did. What was she supposed to do, other then to just to go there and comfort the family?

  • Sumo294

    She had to go to Jindo–but Bum is right–she muffed it badly. I blame the ‘princess’ because she should have had a crisis team in place already.

  • Sumo294

    I like how you think–you are clear headed–sir!

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Where did you get that nonsense about the US president bombing NK? No US president is that stupid. You read that in Korean newspaper. Kim YoungSam needed some popularity boost so he goes around saying he stopped Korean War II. If Clinton was serious about bombing NK, would he stop it because KYS told him not to? What kind of idiot Clinton would be? Making an almost wrong decision and later stopped by KYS? Only one who could stop Clinton was Monica. She told him to come on her clothes, not inside her, so that she has the evidence.

  • Guest

    one blog i highly recommend is ‘buhay sa korea’. it’s a blog run by a filipina lady living in korea since the early 2000s. i love her blog. somehow, the picture attached does a far better job of conveying sentiment. the filipinos are so graceful. i love them!

  • Sumo294

    KimYoungSam was never consulted. The ROK was never consulted. The fact that the ROK was never in the loop was alarming to the leadership here.

  • Guest

    oops the picture!

  • pawikirogii

    can we no longer post photos here? my don’t seem to showing.

  • Sumo294

    Clinton was very interested in doing a surgical strike on the infancy of the nuke program, however he was ratted out by elements in his state department who leaked it to Carter. He threatened to go public and then visited the Norks to ensure that the US would not bomb the Norks.

  • pawikirogii

    ok getting confused here! the ‘guest’ is me.

  • jk641

    bum,

    To be fair to PGH.. This really has been an unprecedented disaster for Korea.
    Hundreds of kids dying all at once. It has been a huge shock for the whole nation.
    During the first week, no, the first two weeks even, everyone was desperately hoping that at least some of the kids would be rescued alive.

    Then hope faded as they started pulling out bodies by the dozens, and eventually everyone realized that no one had survived.

    And the victims’ families.. well, who can blame them for how they have reacted.
    Recall that when PGH first visited the victims’ families a couple of days after the sinking, they didn’t react too well. She received some tongue lashing from them at that time.

    What could any president have done, I wonder.

    But I think now.. enough time has passed for the president to offer a formal public apology and offer a specific course of action to make sure such a disaster never happens again.

  • Sumo294

    Better be the speech of her lifetime. She is toast if she muffs it. Practice in front of a hostile crowd over and over and over and over again till she gets it right.

  • Sumo294

    The Americans could have cared less about KYS and KDJ both of them visited DC and about three journalist showed up on each occasion and they let anyone with a heartbeat ask questions. The president of Congo got more press than those guys. The security for them was so lousy any Nork agent with a butter knife could of got to them.

  • bumfromkorea

    Not when her subordinates were already mucking things up there already. By the time she got there, the public buzz was about 1. The Ramen incident 2. The commemorative photo incident, 3. The Saenuri assemblywoman accusing a (genuine) mother of the victim of being a leftist instigator/impostor. That’s the environment she walked into – a 100% hostile environment where nothing was going to go right.

    The situation and the environment up to her visit isn’t Parks’ fault. But she chose to walk into a situation where her political brand was already thoroughly poisoned by her idiot subordinates – of course she shouldn’t have gone to Jindo then. Even a press conference at the Blue House where she says something like “As President of this great country, I take full responsibility for [blah blah blah]” would have been good. And, a journalist (it can even be someone from Chosun) could ask her “Why haven’t you visited Jindo yet?”, and then she could’ve hit the PR home run: “If I visit now, I would be causing too much disruption to both the rescue operation there and to the grieving family. While I would like to do nothing but visit the families and apologize in person, I will stay out of the way out of the respect of [blah blah blah]. My utmost priority right now is the rescue operation.”

    Instead, she visited, and got pelted with accusations of disrupting the rescue operation and, ironically enough, playing photo ops for PR purposes.

  • jk641

    Sumo,

    No, I don’t think it’s the speech of her lifetime.
    Everyone knows that it wasn’t her fault that all those people died.
    And the victims’ families, well, I understand that they suffered unfathomable losses, and if some of them want to blame the president, then I understand.

    But I don’t think this whole thing will in any way sink PGH’s presidency.

    However, she DOES have a responsibility to do everything she can to make sure this sort of disaster never happens again.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    RhoMuHyen was surrounded by other Commie idiots who advised hiim to ask for the wartime command. Their thought was that the US would never give it up. But they were dead wrong. The US response – “we never liked to have that responsibility in the first place”. Like Subic bay, the US just respected the local’s wish. RMH, the Jolla Commie idiot, put SK national defense in such risk that when the first NK artillery shell lands in SK, people will kill his family and other Commie families.

  • Sumo294

    I thought his family went to the US? His son bought a house in Cali near you if I recall correctly.

  • Sumo294

    The liberal left in Korea is fractured right now by an intimidated labor union coalition, and a divided leadership in the democratic left. If she appears weak it might unite all three to unite and go after her–that will be catastrophic if that happens. The teachers union right now is fighting its own PR battles and scared for its life but it too will spring to life if they see everyone else pile on her.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    China is not stupid. It wants NK to be the gangster in the region. China is telling when to do the next nuke test – nobody knows it is real nuke. Anyway, China is in control of NK. China do not want the rail deal. It does not want to open up NK in any shape or form to countries other than it.
    You are right about NK could not attack. As long as the USFK (army, AF can fly out in one day) is in SK, NK and China cannot attack SK. But when the war command transfer happens and the US army moves out, leave the country asap. SK will tell its citizens nothing is different. REMEMBER SAEWOL. The captain told the student to stay in the cabin. The same thing will happen. Politicians, Chabuls and generals have special flight leaving directly from Kimpo airport.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Other presidents have weathered the similar storm better than PGH. Why was she talking to a fake victim when she visited Jindo? So amateur. If she is so stupid, what other stupid things she is going to do? Daebak! What is she going to do in war situation?

  • jk641

    While PGH’s approval rating has indeed fallen due to the Sewol disaster, I don’t think her presidency is in any danger.
    Yes, the Saenuri party has been losing public support, but the opposition parties have not been gaining any support either.
    I think people are just angry at the government and the establishment in general, and PGH, as the current leader, is obviously taking heat.

    I highly doubt that the opposition could take advantage of the situation and oust PGH. That wouldn’t make them look good either, if they flagrantly tried to take advantage of the Sewol tragedy for political purposes.

  • bumfromkorea

    I think that she would have been in a much better position if she just came out and said something like “죄송합니다. 모두 제 책임입니다” instead of “라면에 계란을 넣어서 먹은것도 아니고” or “청와대는 컨트롤 타워가 아니다.”. Notice that the sound bites that are coming around against Park are all about Park skirting her responsibilities. If she faced the blames head on and said she took responsibility, what would the public reaction have been? After that point, if someone accused Park of something related to this tragedy, the public reaction = 쉴드쳐주기.

    Personally? I think Park is completely blameless except for her choice of ministers and cabinet members who seem to be a bunch of gaffe-producing machines at this point. And I think the rescue operation, while not as best as it could have been, was reasonably competent – if those putrid scumbags of senior crews did 25% of the job they were supposed to do, I don’t think anyone would’ve even had the perception that the rescuers were incompetent. But because the underlying cause is systemic (corrupted inspection system, questionable ship maintenance standards and enforcements, etc.), she should still take responsibility.

  • bumfromkorea

    I agree. The Sewol issue is such a sensitive and precarious issue, only a idiot would invoke it in an election this soon. The damage is to the public’s trust of the government, not necessarily Saenuri (of course, the individual Saenuri members opening their mouth on the Sewol issue certainly has been specific political damages).

  • Koreandumbdumb

    RhoMuHyen and Kim DaeJung are Jolla Commies. Jollas protected them. And, newspaper people were afraid of Jolla retaliation. But, Korea has gotten much more civilized than those days. People are better educated. Why can we expect the same from the president? We want a smart president who can think better than average street walker (sounds weird). A person who can handle emergency. PGH left the matter to Coast guard and went back to the blue house to prepare for Obama visit. She is not a people person. She wanted a brawny point from Obama. Koreans did not care much about Obama visit; they cared more about Sewol. There – she lost her people. She does not know what is important. Maybe she has elite mentality – average Koreans are beneath her. Da-da’s little girl is turning into Marie Antoinette!

  • jk641

    Yes, the underlying cause of the disaster was definitely systemic.
    The president should take responsibility and promise the public that things will change. And do her utmost to carry out those promises.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Koreans will get them.

  • bumfromkorea
  • Koreandumbdumb

    I disagree that she is blameless. The president should set the tone for the administration. With the sexual misconduct case in Washington and with this incident, either she is not in control of her administration or she is actually spreading counterpoints through her subordinates. In any case, things said by her subordinates are amateur and horrible. She is a bad leader.

  • Bob Bobbs

    Yeah, because you have solid evidence that the passengers were alive when rescuers arrived.

  • Bob Bobbs

    Is your campaign of tireless aid to hapless Koreans done out of love, or out of spite?

  • Bob Bobbs

    Georgy Porgy. Scourgy. More G. Supercalifragelisticexpiale-orgy.

  • Bob Bobbs
  • RElgin

    . . . Perhaps her party is responsible

    Perhaps *all* parties are guilty though the Saenuri/Hanara are more responsible since they have allowed so much to happen on their watch. Unfortunately, their political opposition are little more than poor boat captains themselves.

  • RElgin

    I agree with this assessment and would like to buy more red paint to throw on any Saenuri Dang member that is over fifty, if not forty-five.

    I think now the time is ripe for a red-paint party.

  • RElgin

    It really is difficult to lead. I know this from experience but it is worse if one is leading a mixed bag of nuts.

  • bumfromkorea

    I thought UPP was the red-paint party. 😀

  • JW

    Question – if you believe the rescue operation was ‘reasonably competent’ you are saying you disagree with the prosecutor’s report which said that the coast guard could have but failed to save the victims? Is that correct or do you have some other reason?

  • bumfromkorea

    I think that the Prosecutor’s assessments are a little too hindsight 20/20 heavy. The question isn’t whether the Maritime Police was physically able to rescue the victims, but whether the decisions made by the Maritime Police at the time was reasonable. They could have aggressively gone into the ship to save the passengers, but my speculation is that the decision-maker on the scene at the time (who, if you remember, came to the scene with minimal manpower and expecting the passengers to be floating in the ocean) hesitated because of the safety issue.

    A bit conservative, in my opinion, but not an unreasonable decision. The moron who said “at least we saved 80 people!” to the press should be fired, but given the circumstances, the Maritime Police did a reasonably competent job.

  • bumfromkorea

    Unless you specifically chose those nutbags in the first place…

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    This is the extent of the farce that was the rescue operation.

    They have a recording of a conversation between the 119 (Fire and Emergency Service) and the Marine Police at the time of the accident that the Emergency service is requesting the port where they would bring in the survivors to be at 팽목항 instead of the original 서거차도, despite protests from the Marine Police that they need to leave the rescued at the nearer 서거차도 and head back to save more people, because the important people from 중앙부처 (central office) are arriving at 팽목항.. Well, now we know at least why 팽목항 was chosen as the base. Great.

  • JW

    Did you read about the interview that was done with 김홍경씨? Here is part of what he said —

    “김씨는 4월16일 사고 신고 접수 뒤 진도 앞바다로 출동한 해양경찰청 해양구조대가 너무나 어설프게 대응해 더 많은 아이들을 구할 수 있었음에도 기회를 놓쳤다고 주장했다. 자신이 커튼과 소방호스를 밧줄로 삼아 아이들을 끌어올리는 동안 구조대원들은 이 모습을 곁에서 지켜만 보았다는 것이다. 선실 안에 남아 있던 승객들에게 바깥으로 나오라고 해경이 방송을 하는 모습도 보지 못했다고 한다.”

    In one of the pictures in the news article below, you can actually see the coast guard officers standing *right next* to this guy, just watching and not doing anything. I actually didn’t come across this article until just now, and now I am 100% certain that they should be held criminally accountable.

    http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/society_general/635539.html

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    which picture? I see nothing of the sort. They are numbered so tell us the number

  • JW

    #6. The guys in black suit are the coast guard officers. Mr. Kim in his interview also said as much — that they stood nearby and didn’t do anything.

  • bigmamat

    Which party is ideologically more inclined to protect it’s constituents from collapsing buildings, sinking ships, derailed trains and mass poisonings? Neither? Like I said deja vu….welcome to America.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I don’t know why Sumo294 thinks I know.
    But looks like there was no *orgy* sexual or otherwise.

    http://www.ajunews.com/view/20140509140856891

    The Filipina singer that some character assassinating press and authorities(cough cough) pointed to initially was part of a Filipina singer couple, who happened to be staying in a room close to the control room of the ship, and they happened to be in the right place at the right time (to be rescued along with the crew) They are now treated by the investigators as “important objective witnesses” in assessing the conducts of the crew at the accident scene.

    The captain was about to change into his uniform (he’d had a rest) apparently.

    Could I say for probably 1000th time, I am not denying the gross misconduct of the captain. He was one of the main causes of the accident, same as the way the ship was run.

    However there is a need to clearly establish and shed light on the rescue operation which the 해경 are so proud of saving 80 odd people, but actually 0 people saved from within the ship. This as well as why the control tower at w진도 had no idea about the ship being in their area in the first place, and the details of its cargo/passengers (as is the rule)

    We need to get to the bottom of this.

  • bumfromkorea

    With all due respect to Mr. Kim, who is a hero, he doesn’t know anything about maritime rescue. No one is more incompetent than a professional in the layman’s eyes.

    The accusation that the coast guard officers stood by and did nothing is not too dissimilar to the accusations that the divers in the rescue operation only went in and out of the water in minutes, or that many divers were just laying around not doing anything.

    “소방관이 화재 현장에 도착하면 인명을 구조하러 건물 안으로 들어가잖아요. 그런데 구조대원들이 배에 올라타고 나서도 선실 안으로 들어가질 않아요.”

    This shows that his perspectives are limited by 1. his extraordinary experience and 2. his unfamiliarity with maritime rescue. He (and by extension, we) doesn’t know why those Maritime Police officers were disappearing in and out of his view. He also doesn’t know why the Maritime Police officers didn’t go inside the ship. Maybe they were worried about choking a potential life-saving pathway out of the ship. Maybe they were worried about the stability of the area. Maybe they were told to stand by while equipments can be deployed to make the situation safer. Maybe they were fresh recruits who didn’t have too much experience, and was told to wait until a senior officer arrived to the scene. The possibilities are endless as to why in that specific situation, those officers just watched.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    So let me go back and address your question to me before, where you were a bit confused with what I’d written about an interview with a British guy (but here Britain may well be replaced by West/developed country)

    The *Korean point of view* is that Sewol Tragedy would not have happened where that somebody is from, at least not in this day and age.

    If you watch the NewsTapa interview with the father of the dead who released the video clip taken by his dead son, he talks of leaving the country. He also says (though I cannot remember word-by-word) “in countries like the U.S. even if a whale is trapped (in ice), the country does its best to save that whale.. than these kids in Korean who just went down, who were not saved by their country. I don’t want to live in such a country”.

    Now we know that this is not entirely true, as you point out, this sort of failure *can* happen in other “developed countries” as well, but to the average Korean mindset, this is not so.
    Thwarted justice and the powerful doing well at the expense of the weak is the theme that probably goes down most well with a lot of Koreans..it’s just how it is.
    And there are a lot of rotten 갑-을 type corruption in the Korean society, that is undeniable.

  • JW

    Bum that’s not an accusation but fact — at least some of them stood there and watched and didn’t even help the guy. I agree with you that there might be a legitimate reason although I can’t imagine any and the possible reasons you laid out do not seem legitimate to me so my default assessment as of now is to go with Mr. Kim who was actually there and his view in that they didn’t contribute when they could have. And please do not compare the coast guard situation to the divers. They are in completely different environments and to suggest otherwise is totally wrong in my opinion.

  • bumfromkorea

    The main idea to take away from that list of potential reasons I wrote is that you, I, and Mr. Kim are not experts or even remotely familiar with the subject of maritime rescue. Thus, none of us knows what a proper maritime rescue operation would look like in such a situation. In such situation, your default assessment should be to go with the experts, the Maritime Police, as Mr. Kim’s account must be filtered by the fact that he doesn’t know how or why a maritime rescue is done in a certain way.

    I also did a further reading on the Prosecutor’s report, and it appears that the 검찰 only conducted a preliminary study with the Digital Forensics Center. They’re saying it was possible while only accounting for the degrees of the ship listing and the designs of the ship. The proper investigation, whose result would be an expert’s opinion on the performance of the Maritime Police that day, began yesterday. When those investigative results come out, my opinion on whether the Maritime Police’s rescue was reasonably competent may change.

    The main idea for the diver comparison is that to a layman, how and why a professional does something often appear completely unreasonable. “Why don’t they just do [layman’s idea]?” is a common complaint, and one that often goes unchallenged because it would take quite an effort and time to explain to a layman why a professional does something in particular. Risk assessment, probability, efficiency, practicality, etc. are all factors that would be considered by the professional while being invisible to a layperson.

  • Sumo294

    Hmmnnn yes . . . the crew guy who had to rush to the cabin of the captain because he was not picking up his phone and he saw . . . what did he see? A captain so flustered he went to the helm in his underwear and then moved around for about an hour in his underwear and then he escaped in his underwear. It takes ten seconds to put on your pants–where could have those pants been that made it so difficult to locate? And Bill Clinton accidently put his cigar in a girl because he just could not find a cigar holder–we need to get to the bottom of this missing pants scandal–like Ms. Yuna said.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Go to the police. They obviously need your input.

  • JW

    I agree on your point about the prosecutor’ s report. I obviously should have done more reading on it before making it sound like a final report. Regarding the main question about what our default assessment should be it should be noted that the maritime police has not as far as I know given a satisfying explanation for their behavior. Safety concerns cannot be legitimate or it would be impossible to argue that a fireman has a duty to go inside a burning house as mr. Kim implied.. Basically I disagree with you on how much common sense can take us here. If the objective in this situation is to save as many lives as possible why did they not do what Mr Kim was doing even though he was doing it right in front of their face? Any reason offered as far as i can see would either kick the can or diminish that objective. And so given the preliminary report and the first hand evidence provided by Mr Kim I think the sensible conclusion here is that: 1) they should be criminally prosecuted and 2) the burden is on them to give a legitimate reason why. I admit I am wrong in giving the impression that I can be 100% certain that they are criminally liable.

  • bumfromkorea

    I agree with 2, but 1 is too premature at this point. #2 is why the 검찰 is investigating the Maritime Police involved with the rescue. There are too many unknowns between just us two and Mr. Kim’s account.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    You find all sorts of things on the Daum Agora.

    This is supposedly the position of the people behind the NYT ad in question,

    http://bbs1.agora.media.daum.net/gaia/do/debate/read?bbsId=D115&articleId=2736719&RIGHT_DEBATE=R1
    Somebody here wrote that they should have given the money to the victims families or children or something.
    They say that the victims families thanked them and said it was better than giving them the money.
    I actually read about that before. The victims families are saying no to the money donation, and actively rejecting, saying they don’t even know/care where the money is going. They are especially shunning government initiated gestures like “building a memorial garden”.

    무엇보다 그렇게 아이를 보낸 유가족의 아픔 마음에 위로가 되고 그분들을 대신해

    할 말을 해야겠다는 취지가 있었습니다. 광고가 나간 후 다행히 유가족분들께서

    기뻐하셨다고 성금을 모아주는 것보다 훨씬 더 고마워하셨다는 말을 전해듣고 저희들

    모두 감사했습니다.

    They maintain that they did not call for an overthrow of the government, and that they found an outlet of foreign press due to the closed channels within the domestic press (this is probably very true).

    Also, they are upset about the Nork-relation that keeps being attributed to them.

  • JW

    I thought they already begun their criminal inquiry? Looks like they already made the decision to do that according to this report.

    http://m.sbs.co.kr/news/endPage.do?newsId=N1002383659

  • Sumo294

    I think you are right on what she did–I finally believe it. Incredible crap.

  • Sumo294

    Wow–I actually liked this comment I am in shock!

  • Aja Aja

    I’ve read about this man’s version weeks back, but what I don’t understand is if he had time to point his camera and video tape the coast guards, why wasn’t he using that time to save the children, as he said he was doing? He said there were so many children in there, he just didn’t have time to save them all.

  • Sumo294

    Bullcrap–how many families–huh–three guys and two girls do not represent all of them Ms. Yuna!!! Daum Agora–yep–fine–fine journalism. 300 kids with extended families would affect about 5,000 people who could all claim to be family. Why don’t you bring back that fat Krispy Kreme eating mentally deranged chick for some more expert testimony. How would even begin to verify your source?

  • Aja Aja

    Just because it’s in Daum Agora, it doesn’t mean it’s true. Daum Agora is the same place where the US Mad Cow rally and the Cheonan sinking conspiracy theories were largely spread on the internet. Give us an alternate source that would be less of an ideological place.

  • Aja Aja

    Speaks volumes about where she’s getting all her information from – Daum Agora… oh my god… why not go to to FOX, that’s 1000 times better.

  • Sumo294

    She has to the potential to be a real journalist but she wastes her talents on being a victim. I don’t mind her left leaning tendencies and when she does her work–her comments are interesting but her sheer amount of comments is crazy.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    What do you mean it’s true?
    What are you on about?
    That it’s not actually written by the people behind the NYT ad or what they are giving as their excuse/position is not true?

    BTW Last time I linked to Daum Agora it was the Korean Culture Centre in Berlin (독일 문화원) not the *Korean embassy* like OP says, who was making sorry ass excuse on the laughable 다움아고라 itself. The government body, using 다움아고라 first to deny any connection to 국정원 and then writing at length about how they asked for correction from The Zeit and their sordid “I said” “she said” account between the head of the cultural centre (yes employed by Park as a personal PR for her government) and the German Kyopo woman who wrote the Zeit article.
    Good enough for the government, good enough for you no?

  • Aja Aja

    I don’t usually bother replying to you, but just to set a straight record for others, that old woman was not a fake victim. The woman came forth and denied all the press accusations. She was a resident of Jindo, and denied the unfounded accusation that she was the same woman who was Park’s support. Park’s supporter was a totally different another woman who looked like the woman who lived in Jindo. That was verified in the press.

  • Aja Aja

    Neither. This would have happened no matter who was in charge.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Here it is!

    http://bbs1.agora.media.daum.net/gaia/do/debate/read?bbsId=D003&articleId=5208246&RIGHT_DEBATE=R0

    독일문화원.
    I know! I was completely gobsmacked just as you are!
    The government explaining their sorry ass PR stunts through 다움아고라!

    OMG

    But then again, they have been found guilty of those million tweets by the prosecutors so probably 다움아고라 is like The Economist in their PR campaign.

  • bigmamat

    I understand their inclination and they really wouldn’t be wrong. Naturally each player in this tragedy is going to be attempting to mitigate their responsibility. However if any kind of broad change for the better is going to take place people will need to be thoughtful and reasonable. That’s why I’ve said all along that President Park has very likely squandered an opportunity to show her leadership abilities. If she actually has any.

  • bigmamat

    Well there is always the lesser of two evils….or a side that is more inclined toward “populism”. Or even a side that feels weaker and will cave to public pressure more quickly. The public needs to keep up the protests and perhaps one side will decide it’s politically expedient for them to engage.

  • Sumo294

    Now I get it–you actually read every article on that site!!! Wow–wow–wow–its makes sense now–a few great comments and the craziness.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    No, I’m just saying the last time I linked to it (and really it came to light in my knowledge for the first time) was when the government body used it to say what a great job they did in protecting their figurehead.
    It was probably because it was one of the main sidebar items, just like this latest one was. I don’t read it unless it’s linked from the Daum/Naver main page.

    You’re a strange one.

  • Aja Aja

    And this was the president’s fault too. Damn her! How did she allow this such a horrible thing to happen! Irresponsible! Get that woman out of there!

  • Aja Aja

    If the 독일 문화원 says it’s true, then damn it must be true. Who are they anyway? This is the first time I’ve even heard of Korean Culture Centre. I’m surprised you haven’t yet quoted the 1074 petitions signed by foreign political researchers from American universities. Names like 남태현 from Sullisbury University, and 김선미 from New Jersey Ramapo College.

  • JW

    I wondered about that too, even though I have no questions whatsoever about his character, which is what you seem to be attacking here even though he saved dozens of kids. He does give the reason as to why he did that — he was upset that the coast guards weren’t doing anything and wanted to capture evidence as part of an overall gathering of evidence at what was going on. The fact that he thought of doing that in that kind of scenario speaks volumes about how incredibly he kept his equanimity in the middle of an ongoing disaster, and also perhaps, that the movement situation on the ship was NOT AS BAD as some people are making it out to be — that is, the coast guard had plenty of opportunity to move around and save the passengers if that was their topmost priority.

    Admittedly , those thoughts are mostly speculation at this point. But to re-iterate I stand by my point based on the fundamental problem of not doing anything here and the evidence that is captured that they should be be criminally prosecuted. You have to ask yourself also this basic question — if the ship crew can be faulted with criminal negligence for abandoning ship without helping the passengers, why not the Maritime Police, when the evidence shows that they could have done something also and they did not?

  • Aja Aja

    Maybe the logic is, to convince the radicals, they have to go to where the radicals live in order to do so. Who knows? But I wouldn’t have wasted my time on them, frankly.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    What are you on about?

    What is true?
    You are not making *any* sense here.

    http://bbs1.agora.media.daum.net/gaia/do/debate/read?bbsId=D003&articleId=5208246&RIGHT_DEBATE=R0

    문화원? They have one in the US too. In Washington DC, definitely and probably in New York. For example the ambassador has 4 or 5 minister level people below him, and Minister of Cultural Affairs would head the 문화원 in DC. They are usually hand picked by the president.

    It’s like a subsidiary wing off the embassy in major cities around the world. It’s the *government*.

    Among other things it deals with promoting Korean culture to the host country, but part of the job of the 홍보원장 or 문화원장 is to PR the government with the 현지 press, as well as dealing with the Korean press posted in the cities.

  • Aja Aja

    That doesn’t make any sense to me. If there were kids crying out to be saved as he said, then your first instinct is to save at least one more before the ship goes down. Pointing a camera at what the coast guards are doing when there are screaming kids begging for help?

  • JW

    I’ll just let this stand on its own. If you really want to know how wrong and confused you are in making that statement, please do let me know and I’ll explain.

  • JW

    Again, I agree with you, it’s hard for me to understand also. But I can also understand the desire to grab evidence of the coast guard’s atrocious behavior.

  • Aja Aja

    Hey look, you don’t get what i’m trying to say. I’m not trying to argue that the comment described didn’t happen. I’m sure the victim families are angry at the government and blame them for everything. That’s not a big revelation. Why I’m giving you hard time is the way you cherry pick and choose your ‘evidences’ of government conspiracy and wrongdoings.

  • Aja Aja

    If grabbing evidence against the coast guard was more important than saving one or two more kids to that man, than I really have to question his entire story of the desperate situation. How is it that this man’s name is not being mentioned as one of the heroes? Where are all the testimonials from the kids that this man saved them and hailing him as their saviour and hero? I’m not trying to say he is not a hero, it just that I have not read much about him, other than this one story from Hankyoreh, three weeks ago. Again, I’m not claiming this didn’t happen, I’ve heard so many stories on the press that later turned out to be BS, I’ve got my guards up.

  • JW

    Are you serious? A simple google search of ‘김홍경 인터뷰” would reveal that he is mentioned in multiple outlets. The bigger question here is — why do I keep responding to you? (Smacks myself)

  • Aja Aja

    I’m not talking about his interview which is floating around all over. I’m talking about his heroic rescue of the passengers. Not much is talked about his heroism, and have not heard much about him. That’s all I’m saying.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Nope. Still confused.

    I linked to the NYT ad takers position on Daum Agora without any opinion of my own because it was relevant to this thread, and because some sentences seem to answer some questions raised on the site.

    You attack the legitimacy of the Daum Agora itself, and my getting info from it saying it’s all left wing loonies who write there and say sarcastic things about where I get the info from.

    I show, that last time (and the first time I came across it) was actually a government body used it to defend its position.

    But you still going on about truths, and picking my evidence and such about government wrongdoings.

    Weird.

    Do you ride a horse called Rosinante?
    It’s quite endearing.

  • JW

    Good question actually. Here’s one obvious theory: because the mainstream media and their government connections are scared of what he’s saying about the coast guards. He mentioned that that part of his interview was initially edited out by some of the media people he talked to.

  • Aja Aja

    When the first reports of the ship in distress was reported, I read all the text messages that appeared in the media reports in the first hours of the ship being in trouble. Many of the texts sent by the kids said that they were fine, and awaiting in their rooms, patiently waiting for the rescue boats to arrive. One kid texted to his parents that some of the kids, in accordance to the announcement by ship’s crew, they locked the door and were patiently waiting for the rescue to arrive. When I read this, I immediately thought, this wasn’t right. My reaction was WTF? They shouldn’t be locking themselves in the room and waiting, they should be hauling their asses out of there and onto the deck, I must be reading something wrong. Now looking back in hindsight, where were all those parents? Why didn’t they urge their kids to get the hell out of the ship as soon as possible? Why didn’t any of them text them back and say what the crew is telling you, is wrong?
    Where were they? Aren’t they also negligent in the deaths of their own kids?

  • Aja Aja

    Yes I know you were going to suggest that theory. But that doesn’t mean non-mainstream media is being stopped from publishing his heroic acts. Few stories that are online, most of the stories seem to be is about how he is describing himself, how he saved 20 kids. But so far, no stories of people/eyewitnesses coming forward with his rescue heroics to corroborate his efforts. Why hasn’t Hani, and the rest of the non mainstream media interviewed any of the saved kids? If they did, I’ve not seen them. Look at how Park Ji Young’s story made the headlines. People in droves came forward to talk about her and hail her as a hero. Surely the non-mainstream media are also not getting silenced too? Color me skeptical because things don’t seem to add up here.

  • Bob Bobbs

    My gut feeling is that all or most passengers were dead by the time the ship had listed 45 degrees, i.e. in the first 45 minutes- certainly within the second hour. The captain was getting off a ship already full of corpses. Stating that people who arrived after this point actually could have saves lives is wishful thinking. Your condescension is not necessary.

  • JW

    There’s a video that was broadcasted of him saving the students.

    “침몰하는 ‘세월호’에서 한 생존자가 목숨을 걸고 탑승자 20여명을 구하고 탈출하는 장면이 담긴 영상이 공개됐다.”

    http://www.asiae.co.kr/news/view.htm?idxno=2014041807350136368

  • JW

    Ok so you weren’t confused. But it’s pretty amazing that you do believe that. I suppose people are capable of believing anything no matter what the evidence. Makes me doubt my faith in religion actually…

  • Aja Aja

    Instead of him taking pictures of the coast guards, did he scream at them to come and help him to get the kids out? Did he communicate at all with the coast guards? Did the two coast guards say anything back? I only recall from my memory of reading that interview, he did not mention about this. If he made no attempts to communicate with the coast guards, then why didn’t he? This whole thing just doesn’t add up.

  • Aja Aja

    But what’s 99% certain, people were already dead after the hour was up. The golden hour for a successful rescue was the first thirty minutes which was wasted by the crew The air pocket theory is just wishful thinking.

  • JW

    That’s a fair question and it does make him sound like a sort of an oddball but a heroic oddball nonetheless. And I don’t see the validity of doubting the ‘whole thing’ as a result.

  • JW

    Interesting thing is that Mr.Kim of that hankyureh interview also said the same thing. He is something of a fearless truth-talker it looks like cuz saying that to the media could then be passed on to the parents, etc.

  • bigmamat

    I have to agree with Sumo on this one. Granted he’s pretty much got a one track mind and sees a communist hiding behind every bush. He must dream in color. It bet it’s red. Anyway, I have to somewhat agree with his assessment of this ad.

  • wangkon936

    Wow… I find myself agreeing w/Mr. BB.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    What *are* you on about?

    They were texting, photographing until quarter past 10. That’s how the “golden time” is defined, from the moment the 해경 arrived, until the last text from a passenger was received, and even then we can only presume that it was the last moment of the mobile phone reception.

    http://newstapa.org/news/201410608
    Last photo at 10:11 by the dead boy, and even then, no water filling up.

    They were sitting tight because they were told not to move and nobody came to get them.

    What happened after the ship actually went down fully, we can only hope it was a swift death (and I’ve said it before I think it was a swift death, therefore divers efforts were all pretty 무단)

  • bumfromkorea

    I’ve actually been hoping that it was hypothermia (a relatively painless way to die) instead of drowning (a horrific way to die). But given the absence of air pockets inside the ship…

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I know, I heard drowning was the most painful way to die. That’s why from get go, I just got angry with all the stupid yellow ribbons and wishing for a miracle crap…
    I wish to God they’d died quickly and painlessly, poor souls.

  • jk641

    They weren’t just standing around.
    If you watch the video footage, these officers had been lowered onto the ship from helicopters, and they were hoisting the passengers up to the choppers in baskets.

    There were a lot of passengers out on the decks holding onto railings, waiting to be rescued. So I guess these people were the first priority.

    Would it have been good if these officers had helped pull more people out of the cabins onto the deck? Of course.

    Could they have saved more people that way? Probably.

    Could they have saved every passenger? I highly doubt it.
    The passengers remaining in the cabins had to be hoisted out one by one by rope. It was a slow process.
    Especially the weaker female passengers had difficulty climbing out.
    So at best they could’ve saved tens more passengers.

    What doomed the passengers were the ship’s announcements that told passengers to stay put and not move. These announcements kept repeating until the moment the ship sank (or the moment the senior crew abandoned ship rather).
    Just unbelievable.

  • jk641

    Unfortunately.. they died a horrible death.
    When they examined the bodies, they found that many of the victims had suffered finger fractures.
    Meaning that at the last moment they were struggling greatly to escape the sinking ship.
    I think some of them were even trying to break the windows, in vain.

    I don’t even want to think about it.

  • redwhitedude

    They’ll be changing the stereotype to being annoying and really poor PR skills.

  • JW

    Yes I thought about that. That they would waste their time hoisting people up to the helicopters is simply incredible, and certainly proves my thesis that any possible explanation would diminish the goal of saving as many lives as possible. You’d have to be a complete moron to think that that’s the best way to save as many people in that situation. It really borders on criminal negligence but I don’t care about sending these guys to jail really. If we can somehow just fire everybody in the Maritime police and replace them with competent professionals, I’d be perfectly happy.

  • bigmamat

    Well since it’s America you can just blame it on the Chinese.

  • Aja Aja

    How else do you propose to get those people off the boat, who are on top of the ship which was used to be the side of the ship? They are way too high up above the ground for them to jump into the sea. If they jump, they fall and die. Do you know what the rule of engagement is for the coast guards rescuing hundreds of trapped people from a ship that’s on its side? I don’t know that myself, but I would guess that you pick off and rescue the easy ones first, then go for the harder to reach people trapped below. They had half an hour to do all this.

  • redwhitedude

    Yeah with their hissy fit approach to PR.

  • JW

    How else? By getting on one of the rescue boats, which was how Mr.Kim got out…or waiting for the right moment to jump into the water if worse comes to worst, which is standard evac procedure.

  • jk641

    I think this is very easy to say with 20-20 hindsight.
    But at the time, they had no idea if the ship would suddenly shift or sink or whatever else.
    Besides, the rescue boats below were busy rescuing people on the other side.
    They were rescuing people until the moment the ship slipped underwater.

    I guess they could have saved the most people had they pulled as many people up out of the cabins as possible in the time they had and had them hold on to railings or something, but recall that the ship was listing more and more severely, and it really wasn’t safe.

    I guess they wanted to get the people off the ship as quickly as possible.

    And it really wasn’t a rosy idea to jump into the sea, the water being freezing cold and the currents being very swift.

  • Tapp

    Get to the bottom, but feeding the rumor mill is counterproductive. Thank you for clarifying, Yuna

  • JW

    “I think this is very easy to say with 20-20 hindsight.”

    Disagree wholeheartedly. The standard procedure is that you get everybody out onto the deck as soon as possible with the topmost priority. That is the most important action that everything else revolves around. The wisdom of that very standard procedure is borne out by the fact that EVERYBODY who made it out to the deck to the last man survived and that includes the one boy who made it out to the deck but who was thrown into the water because he was too afraid to get himself onto a rescue boat (as attested by Mr. Kim of the Hankyureh article).

    It’s almost as if a one standard is being applied to the Maritime Police and another to the ship crew who failed to get everybody out to the deck. Really, there is no fundamental difference to both of their circumstances. If you’re wondering why I’m not talking about the ship crew, that’s obviously because we know that they will be charged with something akin to murder. It is those people who may get off scot-free even though they are also significantly responsible that I feel very strongly about, for obvious reasons.

  • Bob Bobbs

    I suppose condescension is your religion, then.

  • Bob Bobbs

    Thanks, eh.

  • JW

    Hey, if you really care that much about what I say, then I apologize for the condescension.

    But that doesn’t change the fact that what you claimed was completely absurd. :-)

  • Bob Bobbs

    I admitted it was a gut feeling. I am not an expert on the timeline. Thank you for the video; the pictures inside from 10:11 are fairly chiling. However, it’s hard to believe they lasted long enough that anything the Blue House could have done would have saved them. Are we talking an hour? Two? Three? Maybe. Not 24. Yes, keep hope alive. But don’t cast about endlessly for someone to blame, i.e., the cops, the President, the media, the divers, North Korea, the Americans, the local fishermen etc. It’s a natural response and part of the grieving process, I know, but depriving the families of the rescuers of their parents by putting them in prison isn’t going to bring the kids back. Yes, lock up the crew- or at least those who had decision-making capacity. Locking up the rescuers sounds like overkill.

  • Bob Bobbs

    So how long were they alive in there? The accident occurred around 8 am, didn’t it? At what time did the captain get off? We only have pictures from inside as late as 10:11 am. Do you really think they lasted much longer? Locking up people who arrived after, say, 10 30-ish makes little sense. To paraphrase another commenter here, the first rule of rescue is: don’t get yourself killed, too.

  • JW

    “We only have pictures from inside as late as 10:11 am. Do you really think they lasted much longer? ”

    I dunno, but what I do know is that at around 9:30 when the ship was tilted 45 degrees, everybody, or if not everybody the vast majority of the passengers, were alive.

  • Aja Aja

    When they got there the ship was 45 degrees slanted, how do you suppose the coast guards are going to get those trapped passengers out onto the deck? At this point, it’s too late. That should have been done by the crew of the ship half an hour earlier. You’ve got the benefit of the hindsight. When the coast guards arrived, they had no ideal how much time they had, what the ship was going to do, how fast it was flipping over, how many passengers there were on board, how many were on deck, how many were still down there. On top of that they lacked any kind of equipment. And they didn’t know that the captain of the ship had told the passengers to stay put. Even if they mucked it up good, it’s still is not the president’s fault. It’s the coast guard’s fault and they should be studied so that they’re better prepared for the next crisis. Putting them in jail is exactly the wrong move to make. No coast guard will have any pride left in the institution, and you’re going to sap out the morale.

  • jk641

    “It’s almost as if a one standard is being applied to the Maritime Police and another to the ship crew who failed to get everybody out to the deck. Really, there is no fundamental difference to both of their circumstances.”

    I disagree.
    I blame the crew for not evacuating the passengers out onto the deck, because at the beginning of the disaster the ship was only listing at a shallow angle and it would have been easy to evacuate the passengers.
    But by the time the coast guard arrived the ship was listing at a 45 degree angle, and eventually at a 90 degree angle, before sinking.
    This made it exponentially more difficult to get the passengers out of the cabins.
    The passengers had to be pulled up one by one, by rope.
    Especially the weaker female passengers had little chance of escaping in that fashion.

    You would have to have been Spiderman to dive in there and rescue the weaker passengers.
    You would have to have had rock climbing gear, so you could create handholds and footholds.
    It wasn’t easy by any means.

    Besides, the rescuers were unfamiliar with the ship’s structure.
    They would have needed time to study the situation and figure out a safe method of getting the passengers out, but they simply did not have that kind of time.

  • JW

    “Even if they mucked it up good, it’s still is not the president’s fault.”

    That was pretty hilarious (I’ve been focusing pretty single mindedly on the maritime police and that line just came out of nowhere and made me laugh out loud. No offense). As everyone has been saying, nobody really thinks she is directly at fault here. It’s not like we’re calling for PGH to get sent to jail.

  • Aja Aja

    The argument, as the eloquent ad in the NYT says, is that PGH is not fit to be the president because the coast guards did not do their jobs properly and didn’t rescue a single person. That was one of the reasons why PGH was not fit to be the president. So are you saying the ad does not blame PGH for the coast guards failing to save those people?

  • JW

    Understood. What I meant by the fundamental sameness of standards is the primal importance of getting even one more person out of the cabins as opposed to hanging around outside and not even attempting to do what the likes of Mr.Kim were able to do.

  • jk641

    JW,

    I’ve noticed a discrepancy here.
    The guy in the blue pants is not 김홍경.
    He’s a man named 김동수.
    See video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjbsdvY2pY

    He says that he could only rescue a couple of kids before the ship sank.
    And no, he didn’t have the leisure to take pictures of himself rescuing people.

    As for 김홍경, I don’t know who he is.
    Hmm..

  • Aja Aja

    You are so sure about this, but how about we hear from those two coast guards their side of the story? Besides, does the accusations that no coast guards helped Mr. Kim applies to those coast guards in the picture, or the entire coast guards that was there that day?

  • JW

    Like bumfromkorea said, people are holding her responsible because she is where the buck stops and there is no doubt that system wide changes have to take place, which she has to lead.

  • JW

    “You are so sure about this, but how about we hear from those two coast guards their side of the story?”

    I’m all ears.

    “Besides, does the accusations that no coast guards helped Mr. Kim applies to those coast guards in the picture, or the entire coast guards that was there that day?”

    Whoever failed to reasonably perform his duty.

  • Aja Aja

    If system wide changes have to take place, then give her a chance, and that’s going to take some time. It’s been less than a month since the accident, but already, there are protests demanding her to kicked out of office, and this ad in the NYT is saying “she’s not fit to be the president”. Does that sound like what bumfromkorea said?

  • Aja Aja

    JW, read jk641’s comment above, questioning your video link of “Mr Kim”.

  • Aja Aja

    Good catch. So they are deliberately giving this mysterious Mr. Kim Hong Gyung who says he rescued 20 people yet no survivors have come forth to give him credit, for the good work that someone named Mr.Kim Dong Su, who saved people, as proofed by the video by SBS TV.

    So who is this Kim Hong Gyung, and why isn’t he appearing anywhere after he gave that interview to Hankyoreh news?

    JW, any ideal?

  • JW

    “If system wide changes have to take place, then give her a chance,”

    Does anybody seriously think that she is gonna be kicked out of power? No. You are overreacting here.

  • gbnhj

    Tapp, I agree with you – people typically first think of the word ‘orgy’ that way. Also, considering this particular case, the meaning’s clear, so you don’t really have to add a qualifier. I was simply pointing out that, contrary to what you wrote, it’s possible to use it to label other activities. Anyway, I wasn’t trying to be a grammar cop, but was only trying to respond to what you’d written. :)

  • JW

    No idea yet, if that was a serious question.

  • Aja Aja

    I don’t think she’ll be kicked out of power, but there’s momentum that’s rolling to get her impeached. Fourty four Korean Teacher’s Union signed a petition to impeach Park, 1046 so called “foreign scholars” signed a petition that Park is not fit for president, there are more protest marches scheduled all throughout the country for impeachment demands. If not careful, this could spread like wildfire, like it did during the 2008 Mad Cow protests. Where innocent law that liberalized importation of US beef turned into a terrible battle ground on the streets.

  • jk641

    I think it’s interesting that in his interview with 한겨레, 김홍경 never once mentioned the guy in the blue pants, 김동수, who was the real hero.

    Also, I read in that 한겨레 article that at the end of the interview 김홍경 just mysteriously disappeared into the night without saying goodbye.
    Which adds to the intrigue.

    It’s my suspicion that 김홍경 just took pictures of the real hero working and afterwards tried to take the glory himself.

    Also, for some reason right now I’m unable to open that Hani article.

    http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/society_general/635539.html

  • JW

    I’d like to see how much money you’d be willing to bet on those chances! Money where the mouth is my man.

  • Aja Aja

    I just knew something was up. Good work. These fucking papers are nothing but instigators making up stuff. This is why we run into these problems of people not being able to distinguishing truth from lies. It’s the same old pattern. Mad Cow 2008, Cheonan 2010, Anti-US marches 2002, the list goes on.

  • Aja Aja

    I am not predicting anything, please read and understand.
    What I’m saying is that it could happen again because it happened before with instigators of the crowd working overtime. That is why we must put our guards up and take nothing for granted. I see the same old pattern here how this works, and this game is getting really predictable.

  • jk641

    Perhaps a retraction is in order..

  • JW

    You are aware that 김홍경 claimed in the hanky article that he worked with a few other civilian people, not by himself? I’m not sure yet what exactly is the basis for all this suspicion. Here’s the exact quote from the article —

    “저와 한 객실을 쓰던 사람들(김씨 외 3명)과 함께 커튼을 찾아 끈처럼 이어서 아이들이 있는 아래로 던졌어요. 아이들이 그걸 붙잡으면 어른들이 끌어올렸어요. “

  • Aja Aja

    Even if they did retract. It’s way too late. Look at how much damage it did. I think this was calculated.

  • Bob Bobbs

    Hm. You may be over-stating things with ‘the vast majority.’ Some. Anyhoo, who wants to be a rescuer if they get blamed for everything? What we seem to have here is a culture that pretends everything is hunky-dory, but then draws from a deep well of awareness of corruption when a disaster occurs. This is perhaps not so unlike other countries. Sad.

  • Aja Aja

    Then why does your link’s online paper have the name of 김홍경, when it was Mr Kim Dong Su’s doing the rescue? And then publish the story of 김홍경 saying the coast guards were just standing and watching? It’s all too convenient isn’t it?

  • JW

    “Then why does your link’s online paper have the name of 김홍경, when it was Mr Kim Dong Su’s doing the rescue?”

    Because they interviewed 김홍경 and he was a party to the civilian team that was getting people out. Obviously he can’t take pictures and rescue people at the same time unless he can magically create carbon copies of himself on the fly. What is the problem here!?

  • Aja Aja

    김홍경 said he rescued 20 people. Kim Dong Su said he rescued only couple. Why are there so much discrepancies and odd ball behaviors like taking pictures of coast guards? That is the problem. Then there is the matter of this mysterious 김홍경 who has completely disappeared after he gave his interview. No video of him rescuing anybody, no eyewitnesses coming forward to say he did any rescuing, no survivors saying anything about him. Other then the fact that he said he rescued 20 people, how do we know he really did rescue 20 people, based on what? Furthermore, notice Kim Dong Su doesn’t mention anything about 김홍경 either. So where did this guy come from and why isn’t he appearing anywhere?

  • JW

    You’re starting to make shit up again! Have a good night!

  • jk641

    I don’t think 김홍경 was flat out lying.
    But I strongly suspect that he exaggerated his role in the rescue.
    (Some people do that.)
    In the Hani interview he really made himself look like the main hero.
    But he was probably mostly taking pictures.

  • Aja Aja

    Same as lying. Taking pictures so that he can sell them later, while more trapped students are begging to be saved. That’s even worse.

  • jk641

    What’s clear is that 김동수, the real hero, said that he only had time to rescue 3-4 kids.
    If that’s true, then the coast guard officers wouldn’t have been able to make much of a difference either.

    김홍경, OTOH, said in the Hani interview that he rescued like 40 kids himself.
    And he blamed the coast guard for not making any effort to enter the cabins.

    So I guess there is a clear discrepancy between the two men’s accounts.
    And this has large ramifications as to whether the coast guard did enough.
    Did the coast guard really have a chance to enter the cabins and rescue the passengers?

    If 김동수 is correct, then there just wasn’t enough time.
    The ship keeled over just too goddamned quickly.

  • Aja Aja

    This reminds me of the 홍가혜, the fake diver who claimed that the navy divers were preventing anyone from diving, and telling them to standby and told the divers to just waste time. And this is what started all the accusations against the divers that they’re relaxing and not doing their jobs, as the victim families took up the same theme.

  • jk641

    I think 한걸레 was really trying to instigate the public here.

    You don’t see 김동수 accusing the coast guard of standing around doing nothing.
    If 김동수 is correct then there really wasn’t enough time for the rescuers to enter the ship’s cabins.
    The rescuers did all they could, rescuing passengers until the moment the ship sank underwater.
    (They say the ship went from 45 degrees list to 90 degrees list very quickly.)

    And Hani certainly isn’t the only leftist news outlet that’s accused the coast guard of not doing enough to enter the ship.
    Do they even know what they’re talking about??

    Now I’m getting mad.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    To protect PGH, you are getting absurd. Don’t you feel like the youth under Hitler? They lost all fairness. Heil! Very biased. So much so that they would kill people with smile. PGH is not Korea. Be fair to average Koreans instead. PGH is a daughter of a dictator. A dictator is a bad man who fights against democracy. A sort of elite who maximizes his rights while taking other people rights. A very greedy man. An evil man.

  • 8675309

    Asphyxiation by drowning is never a “swift” death. Suffocation is the most horrendous way to die. Just imagine the way Harry Houdini died…x 300. Absolutely horrific and the most terrible thing you can imagine…

  • 8675309

    There was no “hypothermia” or chance of it. The water temperature that day was 54 deg F (12 deg C), and just to let you know, in the U.S. Army, they consider that as “good-to-go” and “safe” as far as open-water training goes (water temps falling below 50 deg F are considered potentially hypothermic, but anything above 50 F is safe).

    That said, I’ve swam in 48-49 deg F. water in the open ocean in just swim trunks (no wetsuit or dry suit) in the middle of January off the coast of San Diego for 30 minutes with absolutely NO ill effects (then again, I’m kinda chunky), so dollar to donuts, these kids could’ve easily survived — fully clothed and in life preservers — for up to 60 to 90 minutes with absolutely no danger from hypothermia.

    And even if they became hypothermic, the effects of hypothermia at those temperatures are easily reversible, while suffocation and a painful brain death is not.

  • Aja Aja

    So says a man named “Korean Dumb Dumb”.

  • JW

    “What’s clear is that 김동수. the real hero, said that he only had time to rescue 3-4 kids.”

    This is clearly a misreading. In the video he’s referring to that one attempt where he was trying to pull up 3 or 4 kids all at once and he failed because of water rushing in. In media interviews, he is cited to have said that he saved around 10 people. Look at this yonhap report for example —

    http://www.yonhapnews.co.kr/society/2014/04/17/0706000000AKR20140417152400056.HTML

    Besides which, number of people these guys saved or couldn’t save doesn’t take away from the simple the fact that all the rescue workers were outside all along while the civilians were inside pulling people out. It’s utterly absurd. At least a few of the rescue workers had to go in but they didnt.

  • jk641

    Maybe these particular rescue crews were specialized for helicopter rescues.
    There were other specialized rescue units and diving units which got to the accident site too late.

    You shouldn’t blame the ones in the photos too much.

    Could they have done more? Probably.
    Should they be vilified as murderers? No.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Meanwhile in Turkey:
    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/15/world/europe/turkey-mine-accident/

    I can almost hear it : “How is it the Prime Minister’s Fault”

    Look at all those people why are they angry with Erdogan?

  • Koreandumbdumb

    I am telling you when the war starts nothing will work.
    Sewol IS Korea.

    http://imnews.imbc.com/replay/2014/nwdesk/article/3463510_13490.html

    http://www.dailian.co.kr/news/view/437725

    Change the president . Change the system. Prepare for the war that is coming. The more Korea is prepared the less people will die.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    A rather well-written article about the president’s moral responsibility.

    http://www.mediatoday.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=116560

    박 대통령은 사고발생 8시간 만에 중앙안전재난대책본부를 방문해 “일몰시간이 가까워진다”며 돌연 구명조끼 구조론을 펴 도마에 올랐다. 그는 “그렇게 구명조끼를, 학생들은 입었다고 하는데 그렇게 발견하기가 힘듭니까”라고 말했다.
    8hrs into the incident, PGH appeared at the center for disaster recovery and chided the staff ” how hard it is to find students wearing floating jacket? Is it so hard?” (Either she is misinformed about the capsizing or does not even watch TV. Nobody is reporting to her. Maybe because she is FKIA? She is in charge of a country? It is a comedy. Just imagine her leading troops in the coming war. )

    Marie Antoinette – “Give them cakes!”

  • JW

    “Just imagine her leading troops in the coming war”

    I’d rather not do that. That really is a scary thought. Thank God the US still maintains control over the military.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    ChoongAng newspaper apologized. http://joongang.joins.com/article/aid/2014/05/16/14277252.html?cloc=nnc&total_id=14697010

    Their apology was detailed and critical. Some items were not their fault but they felt responsible. The writing was sincere. This is what Koreans want from PGH. The real heart-felt overall apology that contains even items that are not her fault. So that Koreans will be teared-up and say “Ms President, those not your fault. It is our fault.”. And, “Let’s go forward!” should come from the people hearing the apology, not from PGH. If you are a president, do a better job than ChoongAng newspapermen. If you cannot rally the average citizens in this crucial time, then maybe the presidency should be given to someone else who can do the job.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Presidents dont lead troops you idiot. Military officers do.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Yes, because US Presidents lead their troops in war. Are you two idiots?

  • Bob Bobbs

    Washington did.

  • Bob Bobbs

    Swum. You have swum.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Then resurrect Washington.

  • bumfromkorea

    I’m… not sure what you’re trying to say here. My hope was that the passengers died of hypothermia instead of drowning, and the only way that would’ve happened was if there were any air pockets inside the ship. But since there wasn’t any, it just makes this tragedy even more horrific.

  • Bob Bobbs

    He’s on the island with Richie Valens and Jim Morrison.

  • Aja Aja

    The more tragic thing is that the families of the victims still believe that most of the kids survived for at least a day and possibly for days, in air pockets. No Korean media reported that this was very unlikely, instead peddled the unrealistic line that most of them were still alive and waiting in air pockets to be rescued which never came. Completely irresponsible journalism.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Bermuda?

  • 8675309

    “Hoping” that these kids died of hypothermia is actually NOT any kind of hope that I’m familiar with. Specifically, dying by hypothermia is a long, drawn out and gruesome process that is not only painfully slow, but not as idyllic as you seem to imagine it to be.

    Also, “hoping” that someone would’ve died that way is not only incredibly insensitive, but also ignorant and reprehensible because GOD FORBID that YOU should ever become uncomfortable with the prospect or even the idea of someone having the nerve to die on you in any other way except in a way that you deem acceptable and makes you feel good too!

    That said, everyone – PLEASE STOP IT with these “I hope it was a quick and painless death” type of statements. For the record, there is no such thing as a ‘quick and painless death,’ as every death is gruesome and painful.

    If you’re going to use the word “hope” vis-à-vis this tragedy, how about expressing a real hope? Like, I had hoped that these kids would’ve all been rescued or never had gotten on that damned cursed boat to begin with, and as a result, had lived a long and complete, full life so they could experience everything that life had to offer.

    I had hoped every one of these kids who perished could’ve experienced the joy, the happiness, the sadness, the highs and lows of everything from finishing school, going to college, their first love, their first job, getting married, their first child, their first grandchild, etc., etc., etc., until they lived to the ripe old age of a typical Korean octogenarian or even a centenarian, but unfortunately, none of these hopes will be realized now.

    While we don’t get to choose how and when we’ll die, we can hope that when people wake up and finally realize how devastating and cataclysmic this tragedy really was not only in terms of sheer numbers of lost lives, but also in terms of the loss of a generation’s worth of young lives that represented unknown, untapped and wasted potential, people will really get motivated to do something about it to bring on a sea change of rethinking how this country does business and values human life, so something like this never, ever happens again.

  • Yu-Hsing Chen

    This shit happens around the world.

    It must be nice being NYT, with all the cynical groups around the world buying adds to attack their opponents and all.

    Taiwan’s opposition is happily attack the government for Vietnamese burning down Taiwanese (and Korean and Japanese) factories, for example.

  • bumfromkorea

    “Hoping” that these kids died of hypothermia is actually NOT any kind of hope that I’m familiar with.

    Please. It’s not at all unreasonable nor reprehensible to hope that the victims died in a less suffering way, especially when scientific facts all but scream that the survival rate is going to be virtually zero.

    Specifically, dying by hypothermia is a long, drawn out and gruesome process that is not only painfully slow, but not as idyllic as you seem to imagine it to be.

    Obviously, death is horrific. However, hypothermia puts you in a stupor/amnesia, and you essentially fall asleep to death while not thinking about anything. This is a million times preferable than drowning, which, while quicker, is a horrible, painful, and scary way to die.

    Also, “hoping” that someone would’ve died that way is not only incredibly insensitive, but also ignorant and reprehensible because GOD FORBID that YOU should ever become uncomfortable with the prospect or even the idea of someone having the nerve to die on you in any other way except in a way that you deem acceptable and makes you feel good too!

    The whole point of the comment was that I hoped that they didn’t suffer, now that it’s blatantly obvious that they did not survive. It has nothing to do with what I deem acceptable and make me feel good, and you just extrapolated that phantom meaning from my comment for god knows what reason.

    Last three paragraph

    Yeah, all hope on survival kinda dashed for anyone even remotely familiar with physics and biology. And how the hell do you hope that these kids were never on that ship to begin with? How in god’s name does that happen in your hopeful hypothetical situation? Do you invent a time machine to go back and warn the school not to go on the field trip?

    What a wasteful and inane response this is. You either have no understanding of what “hope” means, or you’re just being blatantly obtuse to satisfy some twisted desire to morally reprimand people. Do you also “hope” that the Sampoong building never collapsed, now that it’s only been almost 19 years?

  • Sandra

    First of all, I wonder if there aren’t any foreign political issues on NY Times ad. Is it making the issue because it’s the “Korean” issue? If not, I think it’s not a problem to show other countries the reality of government’s media censorship. As you guys know, if there are domestic controls on the media, one of the ways to resolve it is to reveal it to other countries. Revealing is the way to make the government be under pressure internationally.
    As the main controversial issue is this ad posting on NYT, my opinion is this has nothing to be blamed. If the government has their rebutting, they can rebut it. Also, we all have the right-to-know. So using this Internet-developed environment now, I think issues should be revealed. One country’s government is not just for one country anymore. They are responsible to be blamed internationally if they didn’t handle the crisis properly, because the world has been changed a lot.
    I, personally blame the government and don’t like the way how Park treated after the accident, but apart from everything else, the first thing we have to do is mourning those many people’s death and compensations to the families.

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