≡ Menu

Open Thread: July 27, 2013

Have a good weekend, folks.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    This is a good one. If you’re foreign, and you take photographs of Korean girls in a public place, you will be subject to police harassment and arrest for “sex crime”. If you’re Korean, especially a photographer for a Korean newspaper, no problem.

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    Allow me at least one instance of shameless self-promotion on this Open Thread.

    My novella, The Bottomless Bottle of Beer, is now available (since July 20th) on Amazon Kindle (or iPad, smartphone, desktop computer, etc.).

    It’s a postmodern Faustian dark comedy about a naif who trades his ‘soul’ to the devil for a bottle of endless beer. Your cost is far less, merely the low price of $4.99 for about 150 pages with illustrations by the renowned artist Terrance Lindall.

    Preview is enabled, so you need not purchase blind . . .

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • ryuNchoosk

    I think that’s found in the no masturbation to Korean women law for foreigners, because they aren’t theirs or only belong to Korean men.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Yap, hands off (pun intended) from Korean women. They are the properties of Korean men.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Koreans are pure-blooded super race that excel in everything we do. Science, engineering, manufacturing, sports, arts, music, everything. Soon, to rule the world^^. With China factories slowing and Japan with massive nuclear contamination, Korea is the only success story left. Go Korea!

  • Koreandumbdumb

    If you don’t believe me, see this video

    http://www.youtube.com/user/crayonpopvideo?feature=csp-in-feed

  • Sinister

    Just when you think Korea is progressing something like this nonsense comes up. It’s almost like one step forward and three steps back.

    There are CCTV cameras everywhere in Korea, if I have a ‘legal right’ to my image, can I demand that the Korean authorities and private businesses I enter send me the files? Do I only have to sign a disclaimer if I’m wearing my ‘sexy clothes’ to give them the right to film me? Or is it the case that I don’t have the legal right to my image because I’m not Korean?

    Who defines what my sexy clothes are? Is there a board of ajeoshis and ajummas somewhere who say that ‘Mr.Sinister with his rugged handsomeness is too sexy in his cycling shorts and funky t-shirt’ so we must delete all files of him so he doesn’t take us to court?

    The imbeciles who come up with these laws are little better than the bloody Taliban idiots.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    To recover man’s rights all over the world, this man jump to Han river for his death. He promised that he would do this and he did it. Koreans mourn for this guy but personally I think he was lacking the basic human trait – survival instinct. As my name suggests, sometimes dumb Koreans get born. And, it is nobody fault but their mothers.http://imnews.imbc.com/replay/nwdesk/article/3316362_5780.html

    It is not unusual to see suicides in Korea. With the brainwashing by the Chinese and the Japanese that suicide is honorable and justifiable way to show to the world that he or she is mistreated or is sorry. Asiana pilots next to do this?

  • RElgin

    Well, consider the UK, which has gone crazy over putting CCTV cameras everywhere, as if this will solve some security problem AND they snoop with special microphones as well over pedestrians in public places.

    You should talk about the bad and not safe habit of Koreans fogging during the middle of the day for mosquitoes, which are nocturnal bugs.

  • Sinister

    I agree that the UK is messed up, and it’s been a screwed up place for a long time. At least there aren’t laws about ‘foreigners taking picture of people’ there, that is messed up on a whole different level. I hate the nanny state that the UK has become, and I hate to see Korea going down the same path.

    It will be fascinating to see what happens in Korea if or when Google Glass gets here. It’s going to be a very entertaining spectacle.(pun intended)

  • ryuNchoosk

    Korea Tourism Org.(KTO) new selling point – “All Foreigners Come to
    Korea But Leave Your Cameras Behind Or One Wrong Click and You Are a Sex
    Criminal.” I can see the flocks and herds of foreigners arriving now. I think I’ll put a full page add in the New York Times and Billboards in Times Square telling Americans what a wonderful place S. Korea is.

  • ryuNchoosk

    Maybe it’s just that Korean men don’t want foreigners to go to Korean beaches? I’ll addendum my full page NYT advert.

  • Sinister

    Crikey. That is so awful, it’s almost entertaining. I presume the helmets are due to the fact that the young ladies are special needs, and can’t be trusted to move around without causing themselves potentially serious brain-head injuries.

    Personally, I think their management should have been wearing those helmets since birth.

  • Aja Aja

    I don’t see how this can be anything to do with singling out foreigners. It’s just that foreigners are just ignorant of this law, so more inclined to get into trouble over this. That arrested Chinese student probably blended well into the local population, how did the people who called police know he was a foreigner? The law states, you have to ask permission for taking pictures of naked women. It’s up to foreign visitors to know the local laws, or should Koreans give special favorable treatments to foreigners? Now, if you’re questioning the merits of this law, then that’s a different issue.

  • redwhitedude

    Bah! Kpop for toddlers.

  • Gurusam

    One police official stated, “Korean men take the same type of images but usually don’t stand out so don’t get caught , but foreign men, who stick out like a sore thumb, and have the same tendency to satisfy their curiosity and take pictures are pretty easy to spot. If you want to take pictures of a girl, ask her for her permission and even if you get the shot, posting it online is illegal.”

    There fixed it!
    Every summer same old crap in the media. They must have it marked on their calendar.

  • Gurusam

    Yep, agree UK is pretty messed up but at least there isn’t a national media outlet that would run such shite in the first place.

    Edit- Well, maybe the Daily Mail!

  • hoju_saram

    Well, if it’s as full of witty ripostes as your contributions here at the ‘Hole, it will be well-worth reading. Congrats on writing and publishing your book!

  • Adams-awry

    You’re not funny. In fact, you’re really disgusting.

  • Adams-awry

    “I thought some woman might, some eve or other, find him seductive.” I see the puns are there if you look for ‘em, dad. Wonderful!

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    AA, in the shorter, anthologized version of the story (with few illustrations), an editor failed to recognize the pun, assumed I had erred, and capitalized the word as “Eve,” leaving the impression that the Naif was not so naive!

    If only you had been editing, my son . . .

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Yeah, he is disgusting. Take it from me, Carlos Danger.

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    Wiener’s pseudonym was intriguingly close to “Careless Danger.”

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Aja Aja

    So, that Chinese man who got arrested for taking the picture without permission, stuck out like a sore thumb?

    I don’t think so.

  • RElgin

    If Korea became more like the UK – Damn, that is not progressive in a good sense.

  • RElgin

    Well, you are both not funny, so I guess it is a matter of taste.

  • RElgin

    Hey, that’s a great name for a lawyer! ^_^

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Why Carlos? I guess he knew women go for Hispanic men. Weiner should have used “Carlos Wiener”.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    How can you change the culture of suicide? How can you educate this people about this dirty act? It goes on like public urination. How can you change? Unless people like me make fun of the situation. As more foreigners deride this behavior, Koreans will give up like some Koreans have given up “dog meat”.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Not only that when a Korean woman have sex with a non-Korean man that man will die of a disease. It is local to Korea. All women carry “gold-digging” disease. Once infected, men become feminine and have difficulty in you-know-what. Many Korean couples are sexless – never done it for decades. Stay off Korean women. Many have died.

  • ryuNchoosk

    Who said Google Glass was coming to S. Korea?

  • Gurusam

    No I’m sorry your right. All asians look the same, don’t they!
    Neither of us were there though so we don’t know for sure do we. But the point is the newspaper made a big play about it being foreigners up to this sort of thing and that’s the issue I suspect for many here.

  • Arghaeri

    Shame you’re an American then and doomed. By god to miserable failure :/)

  • Gurusam

    “If Korea became more like the UK”

    Ah, Mr Elgin, never said or implied that at all did I.

    I personally have no desire for Korea to become anything, and certainly not the UK.

    Just meant that British media, despite its rather dubious methods at times, wouldn’t have run the same story.

    I’m beginning to think I have to add disclaimers in small fine print to every post around here.

  • Arghaeri

    Where are these naked women? Tell me, I promise not to take photos :/)

  • RElgin

    It is not just Koreans that commit suicide. The rates for suicide have taken a noticeable increase amongst men in their 50s in the States, so it is not purely cultural but more a sign of how the world turns nowadays.

  • RElgin

    Those are not naked women but women in swimsuits, in a public place. This is one law that is looking for a challenge since it is nonsensical and selective in its application.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    RElgin, but it is partly cultural. Some cultures accept suicide as honorable or interpret it differently. Certainly Catholic culture does not accept suicide and sees suicide as the venal sin that God will not forgive.

    Even the interpretation of suicide is different between Korean and western cultures. When RMH committed suicide, the Koreans I spoke to interpreted it as an honorable act and demonstration of how he had been so obviously wronged. They told me that, by culture all investigations should stop. In the west we interpret such acts of suicide as cowardly. The difference between honor and cowardice makes suicide culturally easier.

    (BTW, I have my own pet hypothesis as to why Koreans are so prone to suicide. It’s not genetic, of course. I wonder what Korean-American suicide rates are among first and second immigrants to western countries.)

  • Arghaeri

    Damn, Ana Aja promised me naked women. :/)

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    You’d probably enjoy the Koroviev character — he’s the ‘devil’ I most identify with. Of course, he’s also the most annoying character in the story . . .

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • bumfromkorea

    I still can’t get over how awesome that name actually sounds, in spite of the context.

  • bumfromkorea

    I’m against it. Whether it’s mostly because it’s racist or I don’t want pictures of girls in bikini to be illegal… I cannot tell.

  • Sinister

    It will inevitably get here at some point. Ajeoshi perverts won’t be able to live without it once they get hold of it.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    I don’t know what the “law” is, exactly. I’ll have to do a little research this week in the office. I know there’s a right to publicity which may limit the distribution of images in a commercial context, but I’m not aware of any law making these sorts images illegal if taken in a public place.

    In the United States, there’s a Federal statute against toilet and changing-room cameras, designed to protect people’s privacy in circumstances where they would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. This law, though, is aimed at protecting your so-called “private parts” — I don’t see how it can apply to photographs of women whose parts are intentionally exposed to the public.

  • bumfromkorea

    The tale recalls such writers as Neil Gaiman, H. P.
    Lovecraft, Stephen Vincent Benét, Charles Pierre Baudelaire, Honoré de Balzac, Herman Melville, John Milton, Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoyevsky, Mikhail Bulgakov, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, and
    more.

    I think it’s safe to say that the book meet that standard and more. X-D I haven’t even started reading it, and I love it already.

  • bumfromkorea

    I bought it, but only for $2.99. Because I’m a cheap bastard like that.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Ugh. I found it: Art. 13, para. (1) of the Act on Special Cases Concerning the Punishment, etc. (sic) of Sexual Crimes: If an image of another person’s body causes “sexual stimulus or shame” and is taken “against the will” of the subject, the photographer may be imprisoned for up to five (5) years or fined up to W10 million.

    Now it all makes sense. Having your picture taken by a dirty foreigner is shameful, while having your picture taken by the Chosun Sports is not.

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    That $2.99 is actually the price I requested be set for customers, but the price I see listed is $4.99. If you can get it for $2.99, more power to you!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Arghaeri

    Course he did the greasy hair was a dead give away to Koreans who are well trained in such matters.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    “I thought some woman might, some eve or other, find him seductive.”

    As a post-published editor or, as I more aptly see myself, MMQB, I would have played it “I thought some woman, some eve or other, might find him seductive.”

  • ryuNchoosk

    I’ll assume the law changed since Mr. Hurt wrote his interesting but mostly now outdated piece. It was just a civil law but now it’s both civil and criminal. Hurt’s “caveats” are still good to know for anyone who likes taking pics in public. And, in civil law as Hurt pointed out “actual, concrete damages have to be shown to have specifically resulted from the picture” and that goes with this newer criminal law where special “shame” is felt when a foreigner takes a Korean woman’s.
    Hurt included some situationals that were worthwhile as well. Now, the police don’t have to wait for a Korean female to complain. They can go after the foreigner taking pictures and then convince the Korean woman that she better feel “shame.”

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    I considered your version, AJ, for the sentence does flow better that way, but I went with the less graceful, published one because I wanted to hide the pun a bit more.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    You’re a bit misinformed on Catholicism. First of all, the sins are classed as mortal and venial (with an “i”). Mortal sin destroys the state of grace, and therefore denies entrance to heaven, but God forgives even mortal sin if the sinner participates in the sacrament of confession. Venial sin, by contrast, does not break the relationship with God.

    Suicide may or may not be a mortal sin. Mortal sin requires knowing and willful violation of God’s law in a serious matter. Yes, taking one’s own life is serious, but the Church recognizes that extreme emotional distress may make it impossible for the violation to be “knowing”. It’s in the Catechism. But you could also ask your local priest about the state of your soul if you’re worried about your sins.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Yes, I did mean mortal, and though it has been many years, I thought that venal (as in unforgivable, and without an ‘i’ **) sin was for lay purposes about interchangeable with mortal.sin. I appreciate the clarification.

    **BTW, the silly mnemonic I used as a child to remember venial was that venial had an ‘i’ as in “I forgive” and venal did not. Perhaps over the years I let venal drift to “not forgivable”.

    ******************

    By my late teens, I had lost interest in Catholicism and tried to make philosophical sense of Christianity while I was in my early 20′s. I spent quite a bit of time in philosophical and theological studies. The more I studied, the less I found it internally philosophically consistent and inconsistent with the world as I observed it. By my late 20′s I considered myself agnostic, which was my mealy way of staying philosophically consistent because I couldn’t disprove God. After spending more time reading (particularly Russel) and thinking, I have come to recognize that I am an atheist. I no longer spend time considering such things.

    I have not saddled my children with a religious upbringing and hope to subtly dissuade them from such ideas. I do believe, however, that a knowledge of Christianity is important for an understanding of Western culture, literature, classical art, and so much in the west from names to idioms that we are not even consciously aware of it.. I see biblical allusion and references in art, literature, and media everyday.

  • BadBob

    My children are grown and not saddling them with religion seems to have worked out fine.

    Turned against Catholicism and Christianity while attending a Catholic high school. Being beaten for the sin, whatever flavor, of asking questions sealed the deal.

    Back to the topic: sadly, the U.S. Army has a suicide problem with vets and retirees now.

  • Gurusam

    Where’s Pervy?

    Can you find him?

  • dlbarch

    Well, maybe in Korea, but this Anglophile keeps hoping that the next time I fly into Heathrow for my bi-annual Christmas vacation in the Cotswolds, there will be a dedicated line at immigration for holders of American passports. The “special relationship” demands no less!

    And, yes, the same reciprocity should be enacted on this side of the pond.

    ….dammit!

    DLB

  • Hardy N. Tiny

    “I didn’t realize taking pictures was a crime”.

    It’s not.

  • Guest

    Lindall’s illustrations are amazing. How did you get him!

  • RElgin

    The additional 2.00 is Amazon gouging foreign buyers. If you purchase, from the U.S. it is 2.99 but if you use a foreign address or card, they add two more dollars. This is precisely why I don’t buy e-books from them unless I can not find another source.

  • RElgin

    . . . and the Korean Government wants to promote tourism!?

    This sort of law is what I would expect of a place like Malaysia, where they have Islamic conservatives of the worst sort. There is a reason that I do not consider taking a vacation in Malaysia.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Nevermind the $25 shipping you don’t have to pay, and the three months you don’t have to wait. Amazon is screwing you!

  • RElgin

    You seem to forget Brendon that it costs the same to download a book while in NYC as it does in Seoul. There is no justification for imposing a two-dollar foreign transaction fee on a customer.
    I switched to buying from Kobo instead of Amazon, though they have DRM issues thanks to Adobe (probably).

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Your premise that it costs the same to download a book in New York City as it does in Seoul is false, because it presumes that government does not impose costs on the seller differently in different jurisdictions, and that the seller has no right to recover its costs. Additionally, you presume that publishing rights holders (i.e., copyright holders), who hold those rights separately in each jurisdiction, have no input into the costs charged to the customer. You presume these things because you have no idea what’s happening on the back end.

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    He volunteered. We got to know each other through my blog. I had been blogging a lot on Milton’s Paradise Lost and in the process of looking into illustrations, I came across Lindall’s images for that epic poem. Tthe name “Lindall” rang a bell — I recalled his illustrations of Creepy, Heavy Metal, and other quasi-underground comics I’d seen in the late seventies. I blogged on the connections, and at some point about six or seven years ago, he noticed my blog entries on his art and left a comment of appreciation. Gradually, we became friends.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Gurusam

    Give us back Cadburys and take back Madonna and I promise i’ll put in a good word for you. :-)

    One of the reasons for putting you in the Non-Euro line is to get you accustomed to the accents you’re about to hear at the immigration desk. Can’t have you fine folk arriving expecting everyone to sound like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins!

    Have your tried Schipol-Birmingham? Heathrow is a feckup of monsterous proportions. I try to avoid it like the plague.

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    Elgin, Brendon, I suggest we cool down those emotions with enough good, cold bottomless beer that ordering my novella — whether for $2.99 or $4.99 — seems like an exceedingly wise choice to both of you . . .

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    I don’t have any emotion invested in this, only knowledge and experience with these exact same issues. I’ve worked with companies in the cross-border e-commerce space in Korea, and Elgin, I presume, has not. I’ve had clients justifying (i.e., defending, at great cost) consumer complaints to the Korea Fair Trade Commission about differential pricing, and Elgin, I presume, has not. He’s just wrong about this.

  • RElgin

    Rather, I contend it is wrong to slap additional costing upon the consumer when it is contrary to common sense that anyone should pay extra for anything digital simply because of their physical location. There is no such thing as transportation fees in cyberspace; only the notion that a company can gouge me just because of where I download from. “Cross-border e-commerce space” makes no sense and is just an attempt to justify grabbing money.
    I suppose being a barrister means that if someone paid you enough, you would argue that blue was really a shade of green.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    “Cross-border e-commerce space” means the business of selling and electronically delivering downloadable content (music, video, books, software) to consumers in Korea by businesses located outside the Republic of Korea. It’s much more complex than you are willing to admit. So by all means, continue with your fantasy version where the corporations are all out to screw you because they’re like, all corporationey ‘n stuff, instead of thinking logically about what factors might account for differentials in price.

  • Andrew

    So wait… did these women all give permission for this photo?

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/07/116_140112.html

  • jk641

    holy crap, how did that picture get on there?

    err, maybe it’s a Japanese bathhouse or something..

  • Andrew

    Seriously, it’s nuts right? Only a few articles away from the one mentioned at the top by Mr. Carr.

  • jk641

    The writer must be a pervy guy. :

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Thank you for the info. We,Protestant Christians, do not believe that there are different categories of sins. We recognize Jesus is a living person and He will judge each person when He comes back, not Catholic church. So, it is up to each person and his relationship to Jesus. In Protestant churches, if we want, we can tell the pastor to go to Hell. The congregation can decide to remove pastors. We have much freedom.

  • Koreandumbdumb

    Most denominations treat suicide as a murder; he “killed” himself. And, it is a serious sin. Yet, the final judgement is up to Jesus. Jesus may forgive some murderers if they confess their sins to Him. But it is not carte blanche as some preachers claim. Jesus is not fooled. Again, these things are left to each individual to figure out. For a smart person, Protestant theology is good. It is “do what you think is right” kind of theology. For a lazy and ignorant person, Catholicism and “fathers” may be necessary to teach Bible verses and stop wrong interpretation.

  • platethief

    Really?

    I was in Malaysia last year, Langkowi and up by the Thai border to be exact. Didn’t see any police by the beach and plenty of skin on show without any sign of nerves. You sure you’ve got the right country, there?

  • RElgin

    I understand what “Cross-border e-commerce space” means well enough. Customs duties have always been one way that a country’s government gets a piece of everything that comes into a country. It is merely an invented means of taking revenue, much like parking meters and the fines that come from the unfortunate whose is fifteen minutes late.
    I quit buying e-books from Amazon and undoubtedly save money over time.

  • RElgin

    You must be living in a cave . . . time to get out more often:

    http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/sideviews/article/malaysias-muslim-brotherhood-nicholas-chan

  • platethief

    ‘This sort of law is what I would expect of a place like Malaysia, where they have Islamic conservatives of the worst sort. ‘

    Yeah, you’re right. Malaysia is the best example of the Islamic conservatism possible.

    I remember how I couldn’t even drink beer, such as Tiger (Malayan Breweries), Anchor (Also Malyan breweries) or Heineken at any bars or restaurants I visited in Malaysia. Except that every bar and restaurant openly sold alcohol, almost as if it was legal.

    I also couldn’t eat anything that wasn’t halal, except all the stuff that wasn’t halal. Completely unmarked, almost as if it didn’t matter or wasn’t illegal.

    I remember being equally annoyed at being able to smoke, or talk to women, or dress in shorts, or see women dress as scantily as they wanted, when I or they went to the beach in Malaysia (Langkowi, Tioman and a few others).

    Definitely: ‘Islamic conservatives of the worst sort.’

    ‘There is a reason that I do not consider taking a vacation in Malaysia.’

    No-one’s missing you, dude.

  • dogbertt

    A prevalent argument in Korea, incidentally.

  • Wedge1

    I wonder if Canadian pilots have to follow this:

    http://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2975357&cloc=joongangdaily|home|newslist2

  • que337
  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Yeah, but if it’s legal compliance cost that accounts for the pricing difference, your statement that Amazon is gouging you is defamatory.

  • RElgin

    Follow my link above and read that since you haven’t seemed to. Malaysia is changing and I don’t like or support fascism, especially Islamic.

  • platethief

    Yeah, right you are. Heaven hope nations such as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan don’t go the way Malaysia has, which is most definitely home to ‘Islamic conservatives of the worst kind.’

    There is little evidence and much conjecture in that article, and certainly plenty of hyperbole with the type of short-hand cross-referencing to get the right kind of audience excited, eg. ‘This process of mild “Talibanisation”. Mild Talibanisation? What kind of moronic and grasping phrase is that?

    You’ll have to take my word that you’re missing out on not visiting Malaysia. And not the other way round.

  • ryuNchoosk

    This chick(Levy Tran) is HOT in this elicit song called “Asian Girlz,” oh and it’s being criticized for being racist.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/asian-girlz-racist-song_n_3688786.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular