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BBC’s Mariko Oi on history education in Japan

I came across this rather personal and refreshing account of history lessons in Japan by the BBC correspondent Mariko Oi.

As somebody who has also been educated in Korea as well as outside of Korea, I can identify somewhat with her. I was just talking with some friends the other day about what history topics we have learned about at school, and the way history is taught in Asia compared to say, the UK – whether the emphasis on learning the skill of objective dissection based on several pieces of evidence (e.g. in the UK) is actually as clearly more beneficial as it sounds compared to the rote Asian method of getting through as much of the actual historical facts (e.g. names of Kings and dates of things).

From Oi’s BBC article:

My friends had a chance to choose world history as a subject in Year 11. But by that stage I had left the Japanese schooling system, and was living in Australia. I remember the excitement when I noticed that instead of ploughing chronologically through a given period, classes would focus on a handful of crucial events in world history.
So brushing aside my teacher’s objection that I would struggle with the high volume of reading and writing in English – a language I could barely converse in – I picked history as one of my subjects for the international baccalaureate.

My first ever essay in English was on the Rape of Nanjing.

It’s funny to see the comment protesting against this article by the other Japanese as I came across the article because a Japanese friend posted it on her Facebook. One protest comment (in Japanese) asks why should Japan be pressured by the neighbouring nations about Japanese history lessons when the UK PM Cameron didn’t apologize to the Indians during his recent visit and when the US never apologized to the Japanese for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

  • dogbertt

    Is “Oi” a real name?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    大井. And without sounding like she has a zainichi-root either :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/bobbymc Bobby McGill

    I think it’s a middle name when the last name is “vey”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bobbymc Bobby McGill

    I read that article when it came out. I could relate to Oi’s feeling, I’ve come to call it a “Howard Zinn moment,” –one which I experienced at 20 after reading his book and realizing that my history class in high school had kinda glossed over a few things.

  • wangkon936

    Yuna,

    What’s up with the wolf-like gravatar? Did you hook up with NetizenKim or something?

  • bumfromkorea

    Isn’t that her dog? He (or she) looks pretty cool.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Thanks. Yes, he’s my ROGUE whom I love dearly, that if I were to have a non-furry offspring I will tell him/her, “I’m afraid mummy loves the furry one just a little bit more than she loves you, so go cry in your shrink’s armchair when you grow up.”

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    Oy gevalt! The Japanese are one of the ten lost tribes!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • silver surfer

    In the UK, I remember learning social and economic history like the industrial revolution, the agricultural revolution, the Great Reform Act, the Chartists, the rise of the Labour Party, and the General Strike – very useful background, although very unglamorous. OTOH we learned virtually nothing about Irish history besides the Great Potato Famine – no mention of the Irish Civil War, for instance – and zero details of the Opium War besides the name. In other words, we didn’t look at our own crimes any more than the Japanese do.

    The most valuable lesson we ever had in history was on how to evaluate sources – to consider who was writing, in what kind of genre, for what purpose, for what audience, and how much they are likely to have known, and to compare with other sources, written or non-written. This sceptical approach, of course, transfers over to interpreting news and the media right now.

  • bumfromkorea

    The US history class I took in high school was one of the best class I took in my life. We went from colonial times through Bush 2, and learned so much about the ups and downs of American history. The “Captains of Industry” vs. “Robber Barons”, “Andrew Jackson, the Hero of 1812 and popularism” vs “Andrew Jackson, the bastard responsible for massive Native American relocation”, Federalists vs. Antifederalists, Spanish-American War, Tammany Hall, Philippines War…

    The overall lesson was clear. Always think about more than two sides of the story. My teacher used to have a ‘side’ portion where that was explicitly discussed – a good example being how Native Americans reacted to the Civil War. Very interesting stuff.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    The essay title I remember was something like “To what extent was Neville Chamberlain to blame for the outbreak of the WW2? Discuss.” but then when I was visiting UK last Christmas, they had this sort of crap which makes me think, Europe is on a different cuckoo level from the la-la land of Asian countries altogether.
    The American runaway PC education used to give me the hebejebes as well with its “African-American history” and “American-Indian history” “American-Asian history”.

  • ChuckRamone

    “One of the protest comments (in Japanese) asks why should Japan be
    pressured by the neighbouring nations about Japanese history lessons
    when the UK PM Cameron didn’t apologize to the Indians during his recent
    visit and when the US never apologized to the Japanese for the atomic
    bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”

    They really don’t get it, do they? It’s not about being forced into anything. It’s about learning as much of history as possible, as truthfully as possible, and then forming your own opinions about it. It’s not about pretending like certain things didn’t happen, glossing over certain unpleasantries, glorifying select things, and being told what to think by your conservative elitist government. Alas, what can you do in the case of Japan? The people in power there have been very effective in their nationalist policies.

  • One for all

    One of the readers’ comments:

    “It’s so easy to be cynical and and sneering about someone else’s achievements. She set up a clinic in a war zone. What have you all done with your lives? Unless it’s something better than that you should all haud yer whist !”

    Couldn’t have said it any better myself

  • RElgin

    You have been in the UK a bit too long perhaps because you have that 누김 down all too well. ^_^

  • junichi tatsumi

    I think there is few thing in korean fistory.
    there are so much in Japanese history.

  • ft52528

    他媽的關閉你的陰戶

  • chuka

    Ms Oi states Japanese people barely learned any 20th century history and they do not understand the reason why Chinese and Korean harbor a grudge. That is laughable . In US there are full of people who don’t know about history but know enough about the right and the wrong. Japan’s racism toward other Asian nations is more likely the cause of ignoring their anxiety and animosity .

    I would like to say that many Japanese are appalled at Korean and Chinese bashing and also the Japanese opponent bashing. The voices by fascists are much louder and more abusive than us.

  • will.i.aint

    If the kanji for the name is as Yuna writes it (大井), the pronunciation of the 大 character is a stretched out ‘o’ sound, and in fact, is written in Japanese as a double ‘o’ (おお). If you wrote the name 大井 in hangul, it would be like writing it as “오오이.”

    Another example of this (there are many) is the city of Osaka, which is written in hanja as 大阪, and in hiragana, it’s written as おおさか.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dcmusicfreak DC Musicfreak

    http://aparc.stanford.edu/research/history_textbooks_and_the_war_in_asia is a study that suggests that Japanese textbooks, although bare-bones, are less politicized than Japan’s neighbors, because history remains highly contested in Japan, while South Korea and China have settled on official narratives that are highly nationalistic in both countries, and particularly distorted in the case of China, because they are dedicated to glorifying the Communist Party. The world needs to pay a lot more attention to the content of the Patriotic Education campaign China launched in the wake of the 1989 killings. Brainwashing is a word I hate to use but it arguably applies to the PRC. Ever wonder why nearly every Chinese comment on an article in, say, The Economist comes across as stridently as North Korean bombast?

    Oi’s remarks square with my experience dealing with Japan at the 50th anniversary of the end of WW2.

  • Kevin Miles

    Yes, but the Chinese and Koreans do use Japan’s history as a stick with which to beat modern Japanese people, sometimes with a vitriol verging on racism. Even if the Japanese were to learn the names of every victim of that era it would not stop either the protests or the boycotts. After all the Japanese are too much of a useful distraction for the governments of China and Korea.
    What is of more concern is the anti-Japanese hate that is being inculcated within the minds of generations of young people in Korea and China.

  • TheKorean

    Yes, the comfort women was all a devious plan made by evil Koreans and Chinese to make anti-Japanese hate. LOL

  • will.i.aint

    What is of more concern is the anti-Japanese hate that is being inculcated within the minds of generations of young people in Korea and China.

    The vast majority of young Koreans in the ≤30 age group basically don’t give two shits about the Japanese occupation. And that’s not going to change as they grow older. It’s ancient history to them. It’s like asking a 25 year old American if he/she hates the Japanese for bombing Pearl Harbor.

  • ChuckRamone

    Japan’s government also does a good job of fostering divisions and creating an environment for ignorance and severe misunderstandings. Japanese in general are swinging to the right these days and becoming increasingly vocal. This can no longer be brushed off as a fringe netouyo element of Japanese society. There was a huge demonstration in April in shin-okubo where protestors had signs saying Koreans should kill themselves, eat poison, etc. It’s no longer valid, and never really was, to paint the Japanese as passive and peaceful citizens being assaulted by Korean and Chinese nationalism.

  • junichi tatsumi

    history is cause and effect.

    history is not court.

    history is not place tu judge the action of an individual.

    history us not a place to dicide whether it was good or bad for current administrarion.

    history is not place to judge the moral issues of histrical events.

    history is a place to learn what happend, and why happened, and cause and effect pf histrycal events

  • bumfromkorea

    Then the Japanese people shouldn’t elect assholes who publicly whitewash the Imperial atrocities to some of the highest political seats in the country. I would agree if it was just some representative representing a hicktown district or mayors of small to medium cities… but Osaka? Tokyo? The Prime Minister? (Repeatedly elected, no less) That’s where I start questioning – Am I fooling myself when I say that vast majority of the Japanese people don’t think that Comfort Women were willing sluts, Korea just loved getting colonized, and that the Pacific War was started to defend the shivering Asian countries from the evil grasps of the Americans?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    This is the part of the protest comment on the Facebook in Japanese which I will reproduce anonymously for the Japanese readers among you, because to me this represents the reasonable voice amongst the young Japanese we know and love.

    アメリカが広島、長崎への原爆投下について、公式に日本に謝罪しているでしょうか?日本への各都市への無差別爆撃について公式に謝罪しているでしょうか?その後の歴史的経緯があって、そのような歴史があるにせよ、今では同盟関係にあるのです。
    本来の意味での「」が求められる時代だと思います。また、過去の歴史の責任について、戦争を体験していない世代が、前世代の責任まで負わなくてはならいのか?議論はあると思いますが、個人的には「そこまで求めなくても…」と思います。逆に「なぜ中共や韓国がそこまで日本を糾弾するのか?」と日本人として考える必要があります。

    I do agree with the nice overall sentiment of the “forward-facing” 未来志向 (mirai shikō) or 미래지향, and how the guy is obsequiously saying that Chinese or Korean history lessons are not. There is really an element of truth in that.

    Then he notes (last sentence) it is necessary for a Japanese to think about the reason behind why the Chinese and the Koreans condemn the Japanese to that extent.
    To me, this is the crux of the matter. It’s the separation of history into political tool which Japan is accusing China and Korea of which they themselves are culpable of immediately.
    If it is indeed “future-facing” they want, then first it is necessary to come to some sort of consensus from a purely academic historical point of view, which is obviously not happening. Then, they delve straight into the current geopolitical situation themselves – China and Korea are making noises about these things because
    1. They are becoming more central in the world stage, Japan’s No.1 position feels threatened in the region as a consequencce.
    2. They are power-flexing. Japan should be ready by being aware of this backward-facing (as opposed to their forward-facing, peaceful and collective amnesia) nature.
    3. History only becomes of some consequence when there are islands at stake.
    4. Islands are also used as political tools, they are actually rocks.
    As I have said myself in the past, I do think that it’s none of Korean business what they teach in Japan, and vice versa. As the economic power and the culture develop to reach equilibrium, these discords will simply become inconsequential. Japan can remain in the same dark ages as North Koreans about the reason why the neighbours view them they way they do.
    We have missed that boat, I’m sorry comfort women.

  • Kevin Miles

    So these people were elected because they were anti-Korean or held revisionist views about the Pacific War? You want to make out the Japanese on mass are bigots based on the stupid statements of some of their elected officials? If you do I sincerely hope you are not an American.

  • Kevin Miles

    We both know that China, Korea and Japan have all experienced shifts to the right and mass protests decrying their neighbours.

  • Kevin Miles

    I was referring to the educational activities within China and Korea that breed irrational hate of the Japanese. That is not to say similar things do not happen in Japan.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And what do I mean by “these discords will become simply inconsequential”?

    Those who watched the Ladies’s Figure Skating Free Event in Ontario will know the feeling.

    It was as if everything became of no consequence – the beautiful grey-dressed girl dancing on the ice against the backdrop of Japanese sponsor signs after all the previous 몸치 klutzes in unfashionable tutus had their go.

  • Kevin Miles

    You know that was not my meaning, but if you insist on being a coward and not addressing what I have to say…I wont stop you.

  • bumfromkorea

    My point is, how are they not a political kryptonite in Japan? In America, when a politician says something stupid in public, his ass is out faster than you can say “What did he just say?” Just look at Todd Akins, who have all but won his senate race. He opens his yapper about how a woman’s vagina having laser turret defense against rapist’s sperms, and he loses.

    In other words, from my point of view, in Japan it’s not a big deal to whitewash Japan’s imperial past. Politicians who spew that bs are repeatedly elected to high office, and that makes me question my own views about what the Japanese public thinks about Japan’s imperial past.

  • Kevin Miles

    I think you are reading too much into it really, these people are undoubtedly nationalistic and as a result they try to justify past crimes. Not saying that it is right or indeed that they themselves should not be called out for it, just that trying to attribute anything more is a bigoted leap.
    In China they scream blue murder about the things that went on during the ‘century of humiliation’ and yet are proud about the other 49 centuries of their own bloodthirsty imperialism.

  • Sigmund

    A reference to this old gem? http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~magi9/isracame.htm

  • bumfromkorea

    How is it a “bigoted” leap? At best, this means that the Japanese people don’t care about their country’s imperial past, and at worst, this means that the Japanese people don’t view their country’s imperial past as anything negative. Imagine if Michael Bloomberg went on to the press to say “I don’t know what those Indians were complaining about. We did them a favor by enlightening them.” Despite his popularity in the city, he would be signing his own resignation in less than a week. Or if Villaraigosa went up there and said what Todd Akins said. Same story.

    I saw Ishihara say the contextual equivalent every other month, and not a peep from anyone in Japan. How am I supposed to interpret the complete political impunity that people like Ishihara, Hashimoto, and Abe enjoy in Japan? Just “Oh, it must be all that propaganda in Korean schools that I never got, since I moved to America when I was in 4th grade.”?

  • TheKorean

    I live in Korea for many years and I never heard of hate teaching about Japanese. Sure, we have to talk about the occupation and brutal things Japanese have done, is that anti-Japanese? Many people are aware of this.

  • Kevin Miles

    Oh in that case I am sure it has never happened. Maybe if you paid more attention you would.

    I have listened to many a Korean child experessing rather frightening hate towards the Japanese. The eternal optimist that I am I tend to ascribe that to their education and not a genetic predispostion towards racism.

    It is anti-Japanese when the crimes of the past are used to insult the Japanese of today. I am not saying other nationalities dont do it, I am just saying it is wrong.

  • will.i.aint

    Shin-Okubo? Isn’t that a red light district?

  • Kevin Miles

    Yes imagine an American politician making a bigoted comment, I am sure such an outrage would never occur. That being said your comment was interesting because although a Bloomberg wouldn’t say that about Indians, I would imagine a lot ordinary Americans think in that way.

    These issues are about national pride, do you really expect the Japanese to apologise because the Koreans scold them? The Koreans forget that whilst the Germans were prepared to apologise, the other Europeans were likewise prepared to forgive.

  • will.i.aint

    Well . . . these educational activities don’t seem to be working very well in Korea then. Like I said, the younger generation just doesn’t give a rat’s ass about 일제시대 (日帝時代) – and no amount of trying to get them to start caring is going to work. It’s just not on their radar.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I have to concurr with the Korean. I remember learning in detail about Yu Kwansun and Ahn Joongkun, and even admiral Lee Sunshin who all fought against the Japanese at different times, but really I would not say it was 1/10 inciting as it was, against the North Koreans. I remember clearly having to draw bordering-on-propganda 반공 (anti-Communist) posters for schools which depicted the North Koreans as evil communists, and posters to advertise the telephone number one had to dial in order to dob a NK spy in (was it 112 or 113?) but NEVER did I have to draw or say anything anti-Japanese.
    I know there are these anti-Japanese Dokdo posters which people link to which Korean kids are supposed to have drawn that I see on the internet, but I have never experienced that first hand.
    At least in Korea, the perceived anti-Japanese sentiment stems less from a formal history education than you or the Japanese people tend to think. It’s more of an underdog kind of feeling maybe more propagated by the media and sports events.

  • Kevin Miles

    I hope you are right. I like 소녀시대 (少女時大).

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    As I keep pointing out, it’s not all hunky dory in Europe either, but just on a different level than in ASIA and Japan is very much on the level of ASIA.

  • bumfromkorea

    Yes imagine an American politician making a bigoted comment, I am sure such an outrage would never occur.

    Find me one equivalent of Ishihara, Hashimoto, or Abe in America that has made a bigoted comment without his career being totaled and him spending weeks trying to apologize, backtrack, and otherwise deal with the massive public backlash. Find me one.

    That being said your comment was interesting because although a Bloomberg wouldn’t say that about Indians, I would imagine a lot ordinary Americans think in that way.

    Based on…?

    These issues are about national pride,

    Indeed. And the impression I’m getting from Japan lately is that the national pride is overriding what otherwise should be a very obvious moral equation.

    do you really expect the Japanese to apologise because the Koreans scold them?

    No, I think one out of their own volition, enforced by their own public sentiment, ought to happen. So that when the Ishiharas and Abes of Japan open their mouth, they are met with political isolation and public scorn.

    The Koreans forget that whilst the Germans were prepared to apologise, the other Europeans were likewise prepared to forgive.

    Yes, that’s clearly what’s causing Ishihara, Hashimoto, and Abe to say what they say. Because Koreans aren’t prepared to forgive. It couldn’t possibly be their own nationalism. Must be the Koreans.

  • Kevin Miles

    Whilst I defer to your experience, I think the level of anti-Japanese sentiment is a little bit stronger than banter. Also I was not just referring to schools.
    Though dont take what I am saying as an attempt to tar all Koreans, that would be just as bad as those who use the textbook issue in Japan as a reason to bash Japanese people on mass.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Yes, I agree because I never mentioned the word banter.
    I do not belong to “all Koreans”, and I cannot “bash Japanese people en mass” because I have too many close ties with that country myself. However, my Spiegel link points this out.

    It’s been this way for decades. Nazis are practically an obsession in Britain, and associating Germans with them is such a strong reflex that it stifles almost all interest in the real Germany of today. The Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, a British education authority, found that the teaching of history suffers from excessive “Hitlerization.” For British schoolchildren, Germany came into the world as a freak in 1933 and, thanks to then Prime Minister Winston Churchill, died a well-deserved death in 1945.

    This(Spiegel) is a German publication, writing about the English history education TODAY.
    Germans are using the textbook issue in England to try and understand the English feeling towards Germany today.
    People don’t want to bash, people just want to understand, like Mariko Oi herself.

  • Kevin Miles

    You suggested that the relationship between Korea and Japan was simply a result of an underdog complex. You know that is patently not the case.

    As for the England/Germany thing what is your point exactly? Surely if it were true it would strengthen my point about the dangers of using history to bash present day descendants.

    In any case it is more shocking than you can know, as the link below will demonstrate.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

  • Kevin Miles

    You win, I tried to find an American politician saying something bigoted and I couldn’t find anything. I looked at other OECD members and nothing there either. Japan is the only country on Earth with stupid politicians who say offensive things. I guess masses of Japanese are indeed racists.

  • 3gyupsal

    I worked in a Korean middle school a few years ago and I witnessed a few Dokdo days. As a father of a half Korean half American child, I don’t want to send my son to school on bomb Japan poster making day. I don’t object to it because it is racist I object to it because it is childish and fails to prepare the next generation for responsible adulthood. That said, I hope that kids from this generation can learn about the occupation from their grandparents. Also I recently had a class of elementary school students up in arms because they mistook my severe indifference to the Dokdo matter for thinking that I supported Japan’s claims. That day we were studying about low wages in third world countries and so issues of Korean activism sneaked in. The point is that in the last few years Dokdo has been used to stoke nationalistic flames. Korean students in the middle school that I worked at had such a boner for those stupid rocks that they couldn’t notice the interested eyes of the Japanese kids from their sister school in Foukouka when they came to visit. They passed on the opportunity to make some friends or play no parent hook up in order to be worried about something that no one else in the world cares about. If I were a Japanese student visiting Korea, I wouldn’t go home and raise a Takeshima flag, I would just think that Koreans are dorks.

  • bumfromkorea

    Did you just went ahead and skipped what I actually wrote? Where is the PUBLIC backlash in Japan? How are these people getting reelected again and again with political impunity, unless the Japanese people are either apathetic or sympathetic to what they’re saying?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    And I am hoping that “no one else in the world” includes the parents of those Japanese children in Fukuoka.

    Japan wants Dokdo and Senkaku. To play innocent in this game and pretend that it’s somehow Korean and Chinese political brainwashing using history against the Japanese which has brought the conflict about is the very source of the ill in the first place.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I linked to that “Don’t mention the war” clip myself on youtube on this blog in the past so if I were you I wouldn’t be so hasty in saying what I can know and what I cannot know. I also have very close ties to the UK myself.
    Strange, banter is light hearted conversation. Underdog sentiment is not light-hearted.
    Underdog is when your country is occupied against your own will, it’s when also you are competing in a sport where the sponsor is dominated by one certain nation, it’s when everybody else in the room thinks you are in the wrong or will not win – It’s that feeling – I just cannot see the word “banter” in that sort of context.
    My point is like I said, Japan is not above reproach. They are being reproached. They should cut the “forward-facing” crap and actually look backwards for a change.

  • seould out

    Wait, a post that indicates that rote learning may not be the greatest form of learning and TheKorean hasn’t shat all over it yet? Is he sleeping?

  • One for all

    Hitlerization is only part of it. Through out my years 7-9 classes (Geography, Science, History, English Lit, Religious Studies, etc) there were countless references to both wars…some nationalistic, most objective. One would imagine that most (if not ‘all’) British secondary school educated students have a grounding not only in WW2 history, but also that of the great war (WW1).

    What disappoints me to this day however, is that the general curricula did not (and still do not) offer much after 1945. As a school kid I could tell you anything and everything about WW1 and WW2…..but I would have been hard-pressed speaking about the differences between East and West Germany……or when/how/why the Berlin wall fell.

    The British do not hate Germany because of WW2, we hate Germany because of WW1 AND WW2…..well these days the ‘hate’ is more like the dislike you have for that cousin that comes round every Christmas and breaks one of your toys.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Yes, but the Germans (as the Spiegel writer demonstrates) find the English feeling surprising because to them also, Hitler is THE evil incarnate, whom they have successfully studied to the point of obsession (there are at least 2 documentaries on Hitler every night on German TV channels), and gone through the self-examination and now have *almost* arrived at the happy separation of themselves from this evil entity.
    The Japanese, also, on the other hand, suffer the same, but for a different reason – because they are missing this part of education altogether and their Hitler doesn’t exist – Tenno the No.1 War criminal lived well after (according to a former German colleague of mine from East Germany who visited Japan who expressed this)
    This is what I mean by the difference in level altogether between European position and East Asian position.

  • Kevin Miles

    Underdog can be either and you used it to suggest that the relations were not so diametrically opposed.
    Reproached? Yes for things that happened ages ago. Also dont try and pretend that these issues are used for one reason and one reason only, misdirection.
    Korea would be better served by diplomacy and cool heads.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    you used it to suggest that the relations were not so diametrically opposed.

    No I didn’t. Underdog is a branch of self-complex. I used it to suggest exactly what I used it to suggest – what I had to explain using examples later to get “banter” out of the conversation which never should have entered in the first place.

    As I said, all this will simply become of little consequence, sorry to say, and Japan will be better served by a cool head and diplomacy when it considers its position in the region.
    Yuna Kim the skater had a cool enough head for the rest of the nation when it mattered.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Not only that, the Japanese would benefit from listening to their own voices like Kenzaburo Oe’s, the writer I most respect and admire at the moment.

    I just finished The Silent Cry It’s so so apt to these discussions in many ways.

    Ōe in a later essay compared the imagination of the writer to a clamp connecting the horizontal narrative with the vertical relationship between the two eras

  • wangkon936

    Sometimes sins of omission are worse than sins of commission.

  • One for all

    Whenever I think of the East Asia situation, the Santayana quote (Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it) always comes to mind. The next major conflict will originate from here (calculated guess).

    Hell, Europe had its limelight in the 20th century…..but this century will star the East Asia nations….albeit under the tutelage of the US and Russia.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    I have found that any point made that does not fit their agenda is met with diversion, lies, ad hominems….. Meaningful debate gets squelched.

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    As long as we’re oversimplifying, I’d say that science is about cause and effect, history about choices and consequences.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I prefer things which have had its day in limelight, things about to die out, I think it’s beautiful, that sentiment.
    Perhaps that’s still why Europe suits my character more than the US, though Freeman Dyson thinks (at 8:50 mark) time left for the US is also ticking fast.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    느낌 ^^

  • Horace Jeffery Hodges

    That sort of thing . . . the kind of reasoning that would prove all Germans to be Jewish because they speak a dialect of Yiddish.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • chuka nekosan

    The protest comment is politically motivated. I think he should not be entitled to complain about Hiroshima and Nagasaki any more than young Americans. But he thinks he is entitled to do so because he is Japanese though he has nothing to do with the war atrocity.
    The fascist in Japan believe and want others to believe that Japan is under attack by Korea, then now by US because of comfort women memorials and comfort women resolutions.

    It seems that this comment writer does not know about Hiroshima. The message from Hiroshima is very clear.
    “No More Hiroshima” means no more atomic bomb killing. Hiroshima peace movement has been and will be for the future, not to be involved into blaming game in the past.

    I encourage you to meet other Japanese people who oppose fascist view and there are many in Japan.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Chuka nekosan, thanks for your comment. I believe you, because my best friend is Japanese (of more than 20 years) and I have many other close Japanese friends (in a way their numbers more than Korean friends). However, some of the acquaintances and better yet “their” friends and acquaintances (as this guy writes) I am still very careful to bring these topics up because we are all aware of the sentiment and the atmosphere in our respective home countries.
    As a reasonable Korean who knows how it actually is in Japan, I would not know what to say to someone about visiting Yasukuni on the 1st of January, nor would I feel it’s my business to ask how much history do they know.
    That’s why Mariko Oi’s report is so refreshing, because it’s still very rare to have such a voice, (but I think this is changing now) I found that when this was posted on the Facebook by my Japanese friend, she did not get the usual number of “likes” and there was one protest comment (part of which I linked to),

  • stereo

    It used to be a red light district. The sex industry is almost gone from the area, and it is now known as Korea town.

  • stereo

    Thekorean, I thought you are a regular commenter here and know a lot better. Why cannot we agree that truth be taught at school, as Japanese government keeps saying? How many comfort women were there? How many of them were Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese? You know that the answers to these questions are not known. A lot of Western media quote “there were 200,000 comfort women”, but the surprising fact is that there is not a single evidence to support that number. I think Korean historians should dig up evidence rather than just refrasing what Japanese historians wrote. I am quite open minded and if they bring up reliable evidence, I believe in it.
    Bigotry is believing without evidence. Who is bigoted in this case?

  • stereo

    Contrary to what she wrote, all Japanese students learn history up to the end of WW2 or San Francisco Peace Treaty. WW2 is one of the most frequently questioned areas in university entrance exams. What they do not learn is contemporary history, which is about the political straggle between LDP and Socialist Party in 1960s and 1970s. Ms Oi confesses that she did not take history classes in Japan. She is criticizing what she does not know.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Here you go Stereo

  • stereohype

    Having worked in middle and elementary schools in South Korea and Japan, I can assert, in Korea’s case, it certainly is the Korean educational system ‘brainwashing using history against the Japanese’. I lost count of the amount of hateful comments and monkey impressions that came from Korean students whenever Japan was mentioned.

    Whenever Dokdo-Takeshima-BirdshitIsland was mentioned in Japan, it was usually met with indifference. It just doesn’t factor into people’s everyday existence there or provoke the kind of knee-jerk reactionary vitriol that’s expected of Koreans.

    But please, go ahead and tell me my experiences are wrong and I haven’t understood Korea properly.

  • TheKorean

    Do you know how actual number of people were killed during Nanjing massacre? Or the actual numbers of people massacred during March 1st movement? No, but we indeed have primary references. Go search them up, I don’t need to waste time with a denier.

  • stereo

    >someone about visiting Yasukuni on the 1st of January
    Those people are basically surviving family of Japanese soldiers killed in battle field. They are very old now and will be gone in 20 years or so. At that time, Yasukuni will be gone too.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I repeat in my assertion that it was not in the Korean syllabus to incite hate against Japan, as I am confident in the omission of anything which makes the Japanese feel bad or uncomfortable therefore you’re right in the sense that it was met with indifference in Japan.

    Knee-jerk and reactionary vitriol that’s expected of the Koreans are there not because of but despite the history education in the resepective countries:
    because they have been that way in order to survive as an independent nation for yonks.

  • stereo

    There are a lot of evidence about the number of people killed in the battle of Nanjing. There is nothing on the number of comfort women. Do you see the problem here? Chinese government did a lot of research. Korean government did almost nothing. You cannot make children believe in something with no evidence.

  • chuka nekosan

    I am very much familiar with this kind of their rhetoric in his nasty protest comment .

    The last sentence you have mentioned above means that we,Japanese, know Chinese and Korean intend to harass us and humiliate us.

    Ms Oi states in her article, “When Matsuoka published her book, she received many threats form nationalist groups”. This is the truth about Japanese fascist. More and more Japanese shut their mouth because of their abusive and threatening language and join the fascist club not to be on the loosing side.

    For me Ms Oi’s article is clueless even though I feel she want to say something, but she surely has made Japan’s fascist angry according to Twitter. She is a lucky lady because not many Japanese fascists can read her English article right, it seems.

    If I were you in Japan, I do not talk about Yasukuni, Emperor, Comfort women etc. with any ordinary Japanese. We only discuss in our blogs anonymously. You can see many Japanese blog articles against Yasukuni.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jensolaf.walter Jens-Olaf Walter

    In Germany dealing with the past has seen different stages. First there was the general view on the nationalsocialism, Hitler, the trials about some major war crimes. later more in detail the Holocaust, then in the 80s more research on the local level. The Sinti and Roma, the regional and local responsibilities for the holocaust in the own area, city. Then came the issue of the slave workers. Compensation, publishing of archives of the involved companies, though some are still refusing to do so. The local AZs, “Arbeitserziehungslager”. Then during the 90ies the involvment of the judiciary, the crimes of the Wehrmacht, the ministeries. Nowadays seems to be the question what happened in each family. Only to name some aspects. And the whole process of discussion and research with that german history is not finished yet. But it is ongoing until now, and not always easy. The latest on TV: Our Mothers, our Fathers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNNUZgFNz8k

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Well, Mariko Oi, who is a Facebook friend (and I imagine also a real friend) of my friend, was the other commenter(apart from the protest comment) on her facebook, saying :
    日本語に訳してくれってメッセも多かった。
    That she has had many msgs which asked her to translate it(the article) into Japanese.

    By the way, have you read this?
    Could it be true??? Very 変なタイトルですね。。。it doesn’t fit the rest of the article at all which discusses about Abe’s Facebook activities..
    I also read about the non-attendance of China and South Korea to the 2nd anniversary in the Korean press at the time. The Korean article said embarrassingly that (from the Korean part at least) it wasn’t a gesture, but some mistake (at the embassy that the invitation never reached the top level because it was all in English). Korean people thought it was a stupid excuse, but some people thought it was a good excuse.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    OK, I actually read the article I linked to till the end, it’s not a strange title. I was just behind in the news and thought Abe’s comment itself was the news – they’re actually talking about the Frenchman.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Thanks for that very thorough input..it’s funny, my Japanese friends in Japan don’t seem particularly aware or interested in this aspect of Germany, as I felt this for the first time I went to see the Hitler exhibition in Berlin with a Japanese friend. I guess it’s true on many levels that Koreans are much more aware of the analogy than the (young) Japanese. As for older generation, it’s different. My Japanese friend who now lives in Germany said her grandma told her “Oh, it will be safe for you in Germany because people won’t hate you so much :) LOL”

  • http://www.facebook.com/jensolaf.walter Jens-Olaf Walter

    Hm, not sure if the average German is aware of that, Japanese are Asians for them in the meantime. But people do not see the connection to WWII. Only occasionally and sometimes with a strange outcome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe See also the movie. The German who established a socalled savety zone for the Chinese during the Nanking massacre.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Seen the film already! I’ve heard him paraded as Germany’s own Schindler :)

    It has that German actor from Goodbye Lenin and Bourne Series in it! I’ve seen a friend’s photo who saw the Rabe memorial.

    Maybe it’s the older German generations..the German colleague who told me about his experience in Japan – how he thought it was strange that the No.1 War Criminal was not punished was probably in his late 40′s early 50′s so not old enough, but maybe the older ones really dissociate themselves from Hitler and so don’t particularly care or remember about their “ally” in Asia.

  • JP

    Yuna, you mean the teacher’s words around 14:00? The infamous “Journeyman” video uses his words out of context.

    Here is the link to University Entrance Exam Center, which produce standard examination that most high school student must take. This year, 23 points out of 100 points of “Japanese History A” test was on the subject of “20th century militarism in Japan”.
    http://www.toshin.com/center/nihonshi-b_shousai.html#overview

  • JP

    >I repeat in my assertion that it was not in the Korean syllabus to incite hate against Japan

    This is said to be an excerpt from Korean government certified history textbook, circulating in Japanese net space.
    고등학교 한국근ㆍ현대사, (주)금성출판사, 2003년 초판, 2009년 6쇠.
    조선 총독부는 병합 직후 임시 토지 조사국을 설치한데 이어 1912년에는 ‘토지 조사령’을 공포하여 본격적으로 토지 조사 사업에 나섰다. 일제는 이 사업이 지세를 공정히 하고, 토지 소유권을 보호하며, 토지의 생산력을 높이는 것이라고 선전하였다 그러나 실제로는 토지 소유권을 새로이 법적으로 확정하여 지세를 안정적으로 확보하는 데 그 목적이 있었다. 또, 토지의 매매와 저당을 자유롭게 함으로써 일본인이 쉽게 토지에 투자할 수 있게 하였다. (p. 156)
    1918년에 토지 조사 사업이 끝났을 때 사실상 농민의 소유였던 많은 농토와 공공 기관에 속해 있던 토지, 마을 또는 집안의 고유지로 명의상의 주인을 내세우기 어려운 동중ㆍ문중 토지의 상당 부분이 조선 총독부의 소유가 되었다. 이 과정에서 많은 분쟁이 일어났지만, 그 해결은 일제에 유리한 방향으로 진행되었다. 조선 총독부는 이렇게 빼앗을 토지를 동양 척식 주식 회사를 비롯한 식민 회사나 일본인에게 헐값으로 팔아 넘겼다. (p. 156)

    However, some Korean scholars, including Prof Yi Yeong Hun at Seoul Univ argue the discription in the textbook is baseless and wrong, citing actual numbers.
    대안 교과서 한국 근ㆍ현대사, 기파랑, 2008.
    토지조사사업에 의해 소유권이 사정된 토지는 전국적으로 총 1,910만 7,520필지에 달했다. 그 가운데 소유지의 신고대로 소유권이 사정된 것이 1,900만 1,054필지로 99.5%의 절대다수를 차지했다. 그 반면에 무신고지로 국유지로 편입된 것은 주로 분묘지나 잡종지였는데, 도합 8.94필지 (0.05%) 에 불과하였다. 총독부가 신고가 무엇인지도 모르는 한국 농민에게 신고를 강요하고, 전체 토지의 40%에 달하는 무신고지가 발생하자 국유지로 몰수했다는 기존의 주장은 원래부터 근거가 없는 것이었다. (p. 85)
    Japanese think teaching untrue description about “wrong doing by Japanese” is hate education.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Stereo, first of all, I am not in a position to tell Japan what to teach and what not to teach in its history. We are just discussing Mariko Oi’s article (I think she has the right) and I had to link to show what others also thought.
    Do you mean Journeyman’s words around 12:00 not 14:00?
    “Japan has a selective and a subjective approach to its military past”?
    In your link the topic says : 20世紀日本における軍事と政治・経済・社会とのかかわり?

    That’s 広範囲 ..How do we know that out of the 23 points it’s not selective and subjective approach (in its emphasis)?
    Finally, Japan has a selective and a subjective approach, most countries do to varying extent. Tada, we are trying to understand why there is a disconnect between the Asian countries and if this is indeed the cause for a lot of the current friction.

  • JP

    Was there anything in the video that supports “Japan has a selective and a subjective approach to its military past”? The video insists that WW2 is not taught at high school, which I have proven wrong. I think it is enough to conclude the video is unreliable.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Again, I have no idea of the verification of these but just briefly reading the comparison account that you posted up, where does it say that 40 percent of non-registered land arose in the first account?
    It says “much of the unregistered land which originally belonged to the farmers and public domain, as well as land belonging to the village, or in family possession fell under the Japanese, which they sold at a low price to the companies and the Japanese. That could just mean that much of the 0.05 percent.
    I don’t see anything particularly wrong in the statement as is or hate-inciting, do you?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    No it doesn’t, it says Japan has a selective and a subjective approach to its military past, and shows that the jiisan who goes to China in the beginning is an ostricized man back in Japan and the arrogant guy eating teppanyaki is the main voice. If the Chinese woman were to be believed at the end the former guys all went on to great and glorious things including being in charge of textbooks.
    I’ve been watching most of asadora, I know that Japanese know a lot of their world war histories, it’s still very selective and subjective though.

  • JP

    Excuse me. What does Asadora soap orera have to do with this topic? Do you distinguish facts from fictions?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    LOL, you are right! :) 漢字の壁が高すぎて まだ高校教科書まではちょっと。。。
    ドラマは、国の情緒を知ることができる窓、特に朝ドラ is well-known for educating the わたしみたいなバカ主婦たち especially about the modern history of Japan

  • JP

    The textbook says, “when the land survey ended in 1918, a lot of farm land that in fact belonged to farmers and land that belonged to public entities, as well as considerable part of land that belonged to village or family but was hard to identify the nominal owner became property of Governor General of Korea. In the process there were a lot of disputes, but they resulted in favor of Imperial Japan.”

    When high school students read this passage in the textbook, they are likely to believe that Governor General took a lot of land from Koreans. However, it was 0.05% of the land and was mainly tombs and land for miscellaneous use. Korean education is just unbelievable.

  • que337

    It is interesting a Nihon TV program on March 15, 2013 showed a survey that Japan ranked #4 in the world at being good at telling a lie, while SK fell behind ranking #15. I guess it reflects hone and tatemae culture:

  • chuka nekosan

    I agree with you. Political struggle continues on between fascist-JAPANISTA and us for democracy and freedom as of today.

  • hardyandtiny

    Yeah, focus on the Japanese in the 1930′s and avoid the Chinese “cultural revolution” and North Korea.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    That’s funny. Did you know that you can find the “actual numbers” on the Internet? Right here: http://kosis.kr/feature/feature_03List.jsp You can look up the statistics compiled by the Governor-General’s office between 1918 and 1945.

    So let’s look up the data for 국유지 (“government-owned land”), shall we? You can actually break them down by dates. First, I will give a good news to our Japanese rightwinger: the part that says “1918년에 토지 조사 사업이 끝났을 때 . . . 토지의 상당 부분이 조선 총독부의 소유가 되었다.” is misleading, because the amount of 국유지 in 1918 was 272,076 町, a little more than 1% of all Korean land (which, according to Governor-General’s office, around 22 million 町.)

    But wait, there’s more. Look up the amount of 국유지 in 1925: just a hair less than 6.5 million 町. In 1926, the amount of 국유지 was more than 9.5 million 町. At this point, the government-owned land in Korea is easily over 40%.

    So the best one can say is that the 40% stealing mark came around 1925, instead of 1918. And that’s also 이영훈 교수’s point–which would have been evident if, you know, people actually read 이영훈’s book.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Even if the Japanese were to learn the names of every victim of that era it would not stop either the protests or the boycotts.

    You are wrong.

  • chuka nekosan

    I saw the some Twitter messages about request for Japanese translation. This is the proof that Japan is very much isolated from international society. Japanese is to learn English for 6 years and English is supposedly taken far seriously that History. Nevertheless it seems most Japanese cannot read the article in question, which is very easy to understand. I believe that Japan’s isolation is a major cause of current JAPANISTA taking over.

    I read the Abe Facebook article you have shown here above. It is farce. Fascist -Japanista often uses the foreigner to endorse their ideology. Typical example is “Texas Daddy”, who is NO TEXAN, born and raised in Brooklyn NY., Mr, Tony Marano.

    Why is it farce?
    Their words are the exact translation from the mouth of Fascist- JAPANISTA , there is nothing to indicate the particular speaker in question is French nor Texan, but only Japanese.

    As for political finger pointing and accusations by both side , I would like to say, “two to dance Tango!”

  • bumfromkorea

    And any point made that does not fit the ET crowd’s agenda is met with red herring, strawman, and ad hominems… usually something about how the ‘koreanness’ blocks the objectivity and rationality.

    Why just in this board, I was strawmanned into saying that Japanese people voted for ishihara and abe because of their nationalist views, and that no American politician said anything bigoted ever. Twice, in one thread (by one person no less!) Is quite a feat.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    As for political finger pointing and accusations by both side , I would like to say, “two to dance Tango!”

    Yes, but in the case of Korean no-show I think it was more the case of “baka odori”.

    The Korean article it was a pure mistake by the Korean embassy staff that they didn’t attend, and I believe this because this sort of stupid mistakes do happen at embassies.

    .

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    I am a regular commenter, and I am recognizable by this lovely artwork that my fan sent me. (Look to the left of this comment.)

  • chuka nekosan

    The Korean embassy made a mistake like any other person does. I have nothing more to say.

    There are some other opportunities to let Japanese people know about sincerity by Korean government in the future, I believe.

    Japan is isolated from the international society due to the lack of English understanding and communication. This is the reason why the fascist -Japanista continues to produce English videos such as ” Texas Daddy” to fool the fellow Japanese and urged many Japanese to send the hate-filled pre written e-mails to the representatives of NY against the comfort women resolution only to cause adverse effect.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    So, you choose the tu quoque defense? :-)

    As I have written, we should have some ground rules.

    (BTW, you should have picked a better battle. TheKorean’s reply to Kevin Miles’s provides poos support for your cause.)

  • bumfromkorea

    What defense? No one’s on a team here, and I’m merely objecting to your statement about what “they” do. I don’t have to defend thekorean to do that.

    Hopefully the rule you have in mind involves restricting people from saying crap like what “they” are like.

    That was my point, btw. You’re commiting what is basically a mass ad hominem on people who aren’t even involved in the discussion. All the while calling for “ground rules”.

  • chuka nekosan

    Are you kidding? Uncle Abe wants to change the constitution so that all the Japanese is to warship at either Yasukuni or a local branch shrine as Japanese custom.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Dude, did you see the smiley?

    Also, you put “they” in quotes. I did not use “they” anywhere in my post. One of the rules I have in mind is misstating positions, which is the problem with the post you picked for your battle, and misquoting, which you just did to me.

    The only serious point of my post was “we should have some ground rules.”

    (BTW (and I am NOT saying that my post committed such), ad hominem is not always an invalid criticism of someone’s position.)

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Interesting. You answered his hyperbolic hypothetical with such certainty, but missed his real point: “After all the Japanese are too much of a useful distraction for the governments of China and Korea.”

    Unfortunately, I have come to believe that the Comfort Women issue is more about Korean nationalism than the victimized women themselves. I hope that before the last departs this earth that they get the comfort they need.

  • jk641

    After all the Japanese are too much of a useful distraction for the governments of China and Korea.

    Stop grouping Korea and China together. The two are separate cases.
    The Chinese govt has a very good reason to encourage its citizens to hate Japan; because so many Chinese hate their repressive, corrupt government. The govt tries to divert the people’s anger outward as much as possible.

    The Korean govt has no such incentive. Korea is a democracy.
    Why would Korea need a “useful distraction”? A distraction from what?

    If it weren’t for the Dokdo and comfort women issues, Koreans wouldn’t hate Japan at all.
    They want to move on.
    Koreans love to buy Japanese products. Really love to.

    Hell, I myself would buy much more Japanese products if it weren’t for the above two unresolved issues between Korea and Japan.
    I love Japanese products, but can’t bring myself to splurge money on them knowing that some of my money could be going into the coffers of Japanese right-wingers.

    I really hate this. This is freaking stupid.
    Does Japan have any idea of all the lost business due to their inability/unwillingness to resolve historical issues with its neighbors??

    I want fully normalized, friendly relations between Korea and Japan.
    But I’m not hopeful that this would happen any time soon.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Good job, bum. That’s a reasoned reply.

    (That said, I don’t know enough about Japanese political issues, and voters vote for a basket of issues. For example, in American politics someone who would normally favor more progressive or liberal politicians except on the abortion issue would (and really should) view all other positions as secondary. I am guessing that politicians’ Comfort Women positions are minor in the minds of the Japanese electorate.)

  • will.i.aint

    I love Japanese products, but can’t bring myself to splurge money on them knowing that some of my money could be going into the coffers of Japanese right-wingers.

    The Lexus owners in my apartment building must not have gotten the memo – because there are dozens of them.

  • jk641

    Yes, Korean gyopos in America also seem to mainly buy Japanese cars..
    I, on the other hand, could never stand to buy a Lexus.

  • bumfromkorea

    Yeah, you’re right. You said their. Holy cow, your position… still stayed the same.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    …and how exactly did you perceive my position?

    I don’t like this win by squashing debate contingent here. When it comes to “their agenda”, their strategy is to squash rather than discuss.

    So, in the referenced post that displayed red herring and diversion, you objected to my pointing out the poster’s red herring and diversion and calling him out for it?

  • chuka nekosan

    I have read the article by Ms Oi and I thought it is rather clueless, but I found that this article has made Japanese fascist very angry. The reason is in Ms Oi’s message in which leaving out the comfort women and other atrocities by Japanese military from history education is the cause of the tension between Japan and neighboring countries. You may recall Japan’s fascist desperately wants to dismiss the comfort women and the rape of Nanking altogether from the school text book.
    Another issue that has made the fascist to hate her is her mentioning of Tamaki Matsuoka. Ms Matsuoka is well known author about the Nanking massacre in Japan and China. She, a former elementary school teacher, has interviewed over 200 former Japanese soldiers who actually took part in the Nanking massacre. She also interviewed many Chinese victims to prove the statements by the soldiers. If her book is true, there is no doubt that Nanking massacre with mass rape happened.

    I hope her books will be translated into English.

  • LaCoreen

    China-Japan-Korea relationship will never move forward because everyone focuses on moving backwards. What is the existence of each other so threatening that we are willing to go to war for over islands? Textbook edits? It should be obvious here that history is precisely why the three countries have failed to move forward.

    Take Europe, even Canada and United States for example. They all have had constant territorial disputes, atrocities committed, women raped, slaves used, ethnic cleansing, war after war, and they simply moved on because they decided to look past the history, and take a good look at their present and the future.

    The future for three countries can be wonderful. Imagine, a Korean graduate student fresh out of school looking for a job easily applies and able to get working visa thanks to the new FTA created by the East Asian Union (or some shit like that). Chinese workers working along side Japanese workers in the same factory, eating same lunch, different cultures mixing freely without worry of racial tension, historical brinksmanship, and also the freedom for human capital to flow freely between three countries so that free market can fully come to effect.

    This economic cooperation would open wonders for really reducing the heat. Of course it would also create problems as well. However, the pie will just be bigger, and even at the low ends of hte socio economy, people will benefit with a slightly larger crumb.

    This is not possible with North Korea in the picture however.

  • 3gyupsal

    Oh no doubt. The Japanese do seem to try to piss of Koreans to incite national unity. Or for fun. Honestly I don’t know their motivations whenever a right wing Japanese person starts talking about Dokdo or suggesting that Japan buy Jeju. By “no one else in the world,” I meant people who weren’t Japanese or Korean.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Unfortunately, I have come to believe that the Comfort Women issue is more about Korean nationalism than the victimized women themselves.

    Attend one Wednesday Protest (which has been going on for 21 years,) speak with some of the women, and see if you can say the same thing again.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Could not agree more with this. It’s true, it’s actually sad If you look, it’s actually a jilted one-sided love, kataomoi, chaksarang, underdog, 열등감 all rolled into one gone bad.
    Japanese always looked down on the Koreans – espeically from the colonial period, to having a remaining minority, and the timing is particularly bad too, with the Korean wave from the mainland taking up only after South Korea has decided Japan(ese government) hates them because of issues like Dokdo and Comfort Woman.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Let me clarify. I have no doubt that the comfort women are genuine and righteous in their protest. I also have no doubt that some others genuinely empathize with their plight. In speaking to Korean university students, I have found that they have little interest in or concern for the Comfort Women, their stories, or their plight. They have, however, a healthy antipathy for Japan. Others seem to conflate the Comfort Women issue with Dokdo.

    I will take up your suggestion and see them on a Wednesday afternoon. I am not one to simply satisfy a curiosity in such important issues, particularly one that I have already made up my mind about. In this case I feel a need to humbly contribute without, of course, inserting myself. However, I will think of something and go. Perhaps remembering and conveying my impressions for my children.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    I have no doubt that the comfort women are genuine and righteous in
    their protest. I also have no doubt that some others genuinely empathize with their plight. In speaking to Korean university students, I have found that they have little interest in or concern for the Comfort Women, their stories, or their plight.

    If you accept that the women are being genuine, why do the opinion of “Korean university students” matter?

  • JP

    It is a historical fact that land survey ended in 1918. There is nothing misleading about it. According to Prof Yi, the incremental land owned by the government was deep mountain area which no one
    could utilize.

    But the point is, Korean textbook falsely describes that Imperial Japan robbed a lot of land through “land survey”, and gives students wrong impression. That is hate education. Governor General did a lot of bad things but that does not mean everything it did was wrong.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Which “land survey” are you talking about? Did you know there were two “land survey”s during the colonial era? The first one, counting arable land, ended in 1918. The second one, counting forests and mountains, ended in 1925-26. And it is the second one that pushed the land stealing rate, excuse me–the “government ownership rate”– over 40%.

    There is nothing wrong with saying that “Imperial Japan robbed a lot of land through land survey.” It is wrong to say that “Imperial Japan robbed a lot of land through the particular land survey that concluded in 1918,” because it has the wrong year. But that does not change the fact that, clearly and indisputably according to the Governor-General’s own records, Japan did in fact robbed a LOT of Korean land through the two land surveys.

  • JP

    It was only Koreans who dissuaded comfort women from receiving an apology from Japanese Prime Minister and compensation. People in other nations did not dare intervene in redress of comfort women. Korea is the only nation on earth with outstanding comfort women issue.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Again, talk to the women themselves, and see if that lie holds up. They are not difficult to find–they have been appearing in front of the Japanese embassy in Seoul for every.single.week for the last 21 years.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    In the context of this larger sub thread, my impression has been that the Comfort Women get used by factions as a chip in the “stoke Japanese hate” game. I honestly believe that I am more knowledgeable and genuinely interested in the plight of the Comfort Women than most Koreans and virtually all Koreans that I have encountered.

    I, however, don’t have the overriding hate for Japanese. I have an intellectual understanding of Korean nationalism as it relates to its history with Japan, but I don’t have a visceral feeling for Korean nationalism, which I suppose is to be expected. I think it’s understandable. The Japanese-Korean feud is something that was well before my life time, and not part of my upbringing, culture, or country’s history. The Comfort Women are human and deserving of all the compassion we can offer, and I think that gets lost in the stoke Japanese hate game.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    I honestly believe that I am more knowledgeable and genuinely
    interested in the plight of the Comfort Women than most Koreans and
    virtually all Koreans that I have encountered.

    Right, because Koreans are “ignorant en masse.” I forgot. Thanks for reminding me how stupid I am, white man. Without you, I would have never known.

    The Comfort Women are human and deserving of all the compassion we can offer, and I think that gets lost in the stoke Japanese hate game.

    How would things be different if your so-called “stoke Japanese hate game” did not exist? Without the “stoke Japanese hate game,” Japan would not have even recognized the existence of Comfort Women, let alone issue the half-assed “apology” and “compensation” (that were clearly insulting to anyone with a functioning moral compass.) And how does the “stoke Japanese hate game” change any part of the moral equation for the Japanese side?

    In what other international issues do you consult “Korean university students,” and let their opinion be the dominant guide of how you think about things? Again, why are they even relevant as to the question of right or wrong?

  • Anonymous_Joe

    I didn’t say that, and I see that you are back to your douche baggery, counselor. And I didn’t say so much else in your post in the given context. Again, take more stuff out of context or misinterpret.

    I am not interested in your blind hatred. I am interested in an exchange of ideas. I see no reason to continue with yours or your lack thereof. I find you not worth my while.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    All I am doing is using your own words, fella. If you don’t want to be called a racist, stop saying racist things.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Here I’ll use your own words, You’ve said that you are “an… obsessive… masturbator ” and you “cannot control… touching…. yourself.”

    The above is more intellectually honest than what you have written.

  • JP

    Who do you mean by Japanese fascists? Would you name some of them? I can think of Japanese right wing or nationalists, but fascists?

    Contrary to Oi’s article, WW2 is well taught in Japanese high schools. She confesses that she did not take history classes in Japan and went to Australia. How can she criticize Japanese history classes if she did not take them? She also says that when she became a teacher, she was told by her principal to make sure teach WW2. History education is not the cause of tension.

    The true cause of tension is the lack of respect for rule of law by Koreans. They want to decide things through political influence. They feel cheated if things are decided just by the rule. That is why they keep demanding compensation for WW2 even though compensation was already paid. Koreans keep demanding “return” of Korean artifacts, even though they waived the right through a treaty with Japan. Koreans keep rejecting ICJ arbitration on Takeshima/Dogdo dispute, though that is the only practical solution. Korea did not send Yasukuni arsonist to Japan, though it was required by treaty. Korea is not going to return stolen Buddhist statutes to Tsushima, though the statutes belong to temples in Tsushima. You bet Japanese feel angry.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Difference between you and me is, I can actually link to where you said those very words: http://www.rjkoehler.com/2013/03/03/gis-go-grand-theft-auto-in-itaewon-one-gets-shot/#comment-820178244

    The Internet is an archive, Joe. There is a record of what we say here. So try the same with what you claim to be my “own words”–prove I said those words.

  • LaCoreen

    TL;DR: Korea got raped by Japan cause we was too honest.

  • JP

    If you are dissatisfied with year of land survey, tell so to textbook publisher or the Department of Education. I just copied from the textbook.

    I think what you said is basically the same as what Prof Yi says. But be careful. Land in deep mountain area is rightly government property, because it belonged to no other person. In that case, you cannot say the government robbed land from farmers.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Sure TK, I remember. Different context.

    Are you going to say that you’ve never said that you are “an… obsessive… masturbator ” and you “cannot control… touching…. yourself.”

    I love that you have this full on hate going.

  • JP

    The Korean, are you saying the women are lying? Is that the reason Koreans dissuaded them receiving redress? It is unbelievable.

  • bumfromkorea

    Unless you’re thinking that TheKorean is a multiple entity merged into a single account,

    So, in the referenced post that displayed red herring and diversion, you objected to my pointing out the poster’s red herring and diversion and calling him out for it?

    is a very, to use your words, intellectually dishonest way of defending what you were saying.

    So who are “their”, Joe? Considering your track records, I think everyone here can figure out what you were really saying – especially after your defense that amounts to “I didn’t say ‘they’, I said ‘their’.”.

  • bumfromkorea

    Wow, thank you, Professor Joe. What grade did I get? A-? Can you bump it up to A for me? I’m trying to keep my scholarship, you see.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Just out of curiosity, what is this “blind hatred” that you speak of?

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Oh, not this again…

  • que337

    Your favorite Professors Yi (이영훈) and Ahn (안병직)’s studies are the product of Toyota foundation (豊田財團) fund.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I see that Stereo/JP has finally realized that Chuka Nekosan is not on the same page as he/she is. I would like to see Chuka Nekosan answer because this disconnect within the Japanese themselves is what I find very interesting – that is, IF Stereo/JP indeed is a Japanese.

    His deliberate obtuseness and insistence in how he’s proved things right when he hasn’t almost makes me wonder if he is a Japanese, and more like, GASP, a Korean :) !!!because the Japanese I’ve come across are more like Chuka Nekosan.

    Maybe he/she’s not Japanese but a gaijin. They are often worse, like Chuka san has said already.

  • jk641

    Sad indeed.

  • provIdence

    I have just come across with an article by Hiroshi Furuta, professor of Tsukuba University, formerly known as Tokyo Univerity of Education.
    http://sankei.jp.msn.com/world/news/121017/kor12101703180000-n1.htm

    This article might give a clue to understanding anti-Japanese minds appearing in this post.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    RK, this response is for you only. I am not interested in engaging The_Korean. Read the exchange here, before and after your post.

    Despite the recent exchanges or for that matter every exchange that I’ve had with The_Korean (all of which I have found not meaningful, constructive, or informative), I still engaged him and answered his questions civilly on a serious thread. I won’t anymore.

    I understand that The_Korean is your buddy. You seem to offer him protection while allowing him to degrade the message board.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Stop grouping Korea and China together. The two are separate cases.

    The Chinese govt has a very good reason to encourage its citizens to hate Japan; because so many Chinese hate their repressive, corrupt government. The govt tries to divert the people’s anger outward as much as possible.

    The Korean govt has no such incentive. Korea is a democracy.
    Why would Korea need a “useful distraction”? A distraction from what?

    Do you remember when 2MB went to Dokdo last year? Do you remember all the smoke surrounding him at the time? I don’t know anyone who did not find it all too coincidental..

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    OMG…this is flabbergasting – that’s pretty bad, that such a publication can exist as one of the mainstream press in a country like Japan…it’s a comitragedy.

  • chuka nekosan

    JP, you are kidding! You know well who are the war-time fascist wannabe.

    As I said in my comment Ms Oi made you angry but not us.

    If history education is not the cause of tension then perhaps,the true cause of tension is political acting out by Japan’s fascist. It seems the fascist-Japanista have already started their own “Comfort women” war against N.J.by threatening and stalking Palisades Park.

    It takes two to tango in the political world. Both Japanese and Korean government must find the positive solution before going to the ICJ or whatever. Bitching and moaning lead us into nowhere but a deep pit of vindictiveness where you are now.

    In order to build the positive relation with neighboring countries Japan at least has to acknowledge the history instead denying it.
    Our problem is not the lack of history education but we are not taught our history right.

  • provIdence

    Although I did not fully follow your discussion here, I thought his article is a good medicine for you. I did not know him before, but he is teaching at a university which is most influential over education and educational administration in Japan.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Today, after reading that, I feel really very sorry for Japanese as a nation, and even for my Japanese friends, although I doubt that any would touch that sort of crappy inciting writing with a stick! And I thought that Korean press was bad.

    Only the Japanese can help themselves, and unfortunately, they are egged on into their false sense of superiority/security by fawning Japanophiles who, instead of telling them to wake up and smell the coffee, who are busy licking their manga arses..

  • provIdence

    I once was asked by a person from Taiwan whether I knew the Nanjing incident. I did not know anything about Nanjing, so I answered No. That’s all. No argument over the matter. He could have been a Kuomintang. His kins or of that sort must have disarmed Japanese army in China. I understand Taiwanese are generally chinilpas.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    I’m still curious about the “blind hatred”. “Blind hatred” for you?

  • Cloudfive

    I was loathe to bring this up, but all this “intellectual honesty” and “meaningful debate” bullcrap is awfully rich coming from someone, who I suspect is the same person, that had an epically childish argument with Brendon Carr and several others a year or two ago. Can’t remember exactly how it started…some sort of generalization based on a conversation with Korean college girls at Helios. One would think you would have learned by now.

  • JP

    So, what? That alone does not affect the credibility of their research.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Wow, that does sound especially childish.

    I am not so loathe to bring up that it wasn’t me. I’ve never been to Helios and would not contemplate going. Clubbing is not my stage of life. I’m a husband and father, and I take those duties serious. I can’t see myself reading, let alone commenting on, such a thread. Clearly, my posting history shows my lack of interest in such threads.

    But let’s vote up your post.

  • Cloudfive

    I’ll take your word on that. Wonder what happened to that guy…

  • que337

    As for blind hatred, here is a good example, a professionally-created music video, “チョン斬る!~조선놈들을 쳐죽여라”(Beat up Koreans to death!):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=560bR8-cNsI

  • Cloudfive

    I’ll take your word on that. Wonder what happened to that guy…

  • JP

    Chuka, do you understand what a fascist mean? Fascism is military dictatorship. Pak Cheong Hue, Cheong Do Hwan, and Mao Ze Dong are fascists. Are there any fascists in Japan after WW2?

    >In order to build the positive relation with neighboring countries Japan at least has to acknowledge the history instead denying it.

    It is not self-evident. But I can at least say it is true with regard to Japan Korea relationship. China and Korea are neighbors. If the proposition is true, South Korean and Chinese must learn centuries of history of Korean submission to China to build a positive relation between the two countries. Probably, Japan can learn something from how the history of Korea China relationship is taught in history class in Korea and in China. I think Koreans are more eager to propagate history classes in China than history classes in Japan, for China is a real fascist nation. Would anyone tell me how it is taught in China, please?

  • JP

    Sorry, I mean Cheon Du Hwan.

  • provIdence

    Here are about 10-year old videos of NHK program discussing history and post-war history education in Japan.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdEjykeyDN4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx5I3Eh0DA0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCVE5rDs55k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OFP9PnIZAs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6LRV7pkSN0

    The discussion was conducted in Japanese, although participants included many Chinese and Koreans.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Eh? I just watched the first clip only. The JAPANESE are telling the CHINESE what to put in the CHINESE textbook! Especially about the Nanjing massacre and to present both good and bad (light and shadow she says)! What a laugh!
    Here I was thinking, that it’s none of anybody elses business, what people put or don’t put in their own country’s textbook but the Japanese were guilty of it 10 years ago!
    Will watch the rest..

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Finished part 4, (cannot find part 5) I’m a bit suspicious about the editing by the uploader that it cuts off the reply (from the Korean professor) that I want to hear about the 日露戦争 to the Portsmouth Treaty ..The young 최(?) guy tried to bring up the German analogy but he was not very good and got told by the Japanese to shut up immediately (they accuse him where did you learn it? From your textbook? Your textbook is wrong).

    And this Sakurai woman, is she still active? Amazing people like these can be so mainstream, and there are Japanese who feel like she can represent them (from the comments) Seriously, where Germans were only recently starting to discuss on TV about Gunter Grass’s ban to Israel, and when I watched I was bowled over by how careful the Germans were to express a view against Israel….or put a foot wrong (not that that’s all good either)…

  • provIdence

    I hope you could see Part 5, summarizing the program, as I could reach it on a different machine.

    I also think that the Korean boy should have given some more time to present his assertion. He was a bit too shy for a Korean.

    There was a Chinese professor, possibly, who discussed Nanjing. It was a surprise for me to hear his saying that the number of victims whether it was 300,000 or 10,000 would not make any difference, which I heard before. It makes me think that the number was closer to 10,000 and it could have been execution rather than massacre.

    I have been reading about Nanjing today, and I am getting to believe that it was a propaganda. I’ll spend some more time on it. As for your inclination for comparing Japan to Nazi Germany, you are wrong.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Hmm, I cannot say, but would 10,000 dead make it into a Chinese propaganda and 300,000 a masscre/legitimate history?

    I know what the Japanese are saying in the program – I also get this very heavy feeling when I go to visit museums in countries like Mexico(revolution?), in Poland (about the Nazis), Israel (I went to a children’s holocaust museum and it was different) about how the events are presented in such an emotionally charged way – I have never been to the Independence Museum in Korea but I bet it’s the same. I don’t think, that at least in Korean text books it’s as bad as it is in the museum or in China. . However, I think it’s still important that they are remembered than denied or forgotten. And certainly it makes me laugh when Sakurai woman says “光と影” to the Chinese about their textbooks.. there’s a Korean saying “병주고 약준다”.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Land in deep mountain area is rightly government property, because it belonged to no other person.

    I am sure the Governor-General’s office said the exact same thing as it appropriated more than 40% of Korea’s land in the 1920s.

  • provIdence

    Of course I don’t like to discuss matters of China and Japan here, and I stop talking about Nanjing. It is still very good of you if you can persevere Ms. Sakurai talking about Korean comfort women.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv1kba_yyyy-yyyyyy-yyyyyyyyyy_news#.UUn1DnC11Et

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Wow, she certainly can talk ‘as a journalist’. I don’t know whether I can trust what she says about her private experience with 河野談話. All these things are mini-histories already, and it’s all 談話 without records, and it’s just her words, no? Exactly what the Japanese say when they accuse the Koreans about Comfort women (lack of records)..And it sounds like an excuse to say “they didn’t mean to apologize back then, but were pressured” – well maybe the Koreans also didn’t meant to stay silent about the Comfort women until recently!

    LOL when she says it’s OK to admit to having a different 歴史観 역사관 and build on that at the end, because it sounds very persuasive.. Clearly it’s not OK when it is stopping the relationship from going forward – I mean that’s why they are all sitting there in the first place. Also 不幸中の幸い(I don’t know if it’s a blessing in disguise) is her much softer stance towards South Korea (saying they need to unite against China and North Korea) at the end. I also noticed it in the other clips..

  • chuka nekosan

    JP, you are a living proof of the lack of history education.

  • Genie

    “If it weren’t for the Dokdo and comfort women issues, Koreans wouldn’t hate Japan at all.
    They want to move on.”

    Really? What do you explain about “Sea of Japan” naming dispute? It is Korea that are making a fuss about this. You know Korea calls East China Sea “South Sea” and Yellow Sea “West Sea”, but why the hell are they trying to force other countries calling Sea of Japan “East Sea” other than the fact that they want to beat Japanese. The rest of the world have no reason to change the Sea of Japan to whatever name self-centered Koreans prefer. You don’t see other countries making a fuss with nomenclatures such as the Strait of Korea (it’s the Strait of Tsushima in Japan), the East China Sea, South China Sea, the Gulf of Mexico, the Indian Ocean, the Mozanbique Channel, and the Gulf of Guinea, to name a few. The French choose to call the English Channel “La Manche”, but they are not going to spam the world in order to change the name. Why? Probably because they are secure with themselves and are intelligent enough to know that names do not have anything to do with ownership.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Sea of Japan should be called Sea of Japan. As I’ve said before this is probably the most stupid move Koreans have ever made and detracts from other serious issues. The sooner the stupids at the top realize that and somehow the Korean VANKs or whoever just wake up about this the better for Korea.

  • ChuckRamone

    Like you said, the French call the English Channel “La Manche,” and they have an official ministry dedicated to battling the encroachment of English words into the French language. Most countries are interested in protecting their cultural identity. Why can’t you concede it’s just as important for Koreans as it is for anyone else?

  • que337

    Okay, this is clearly the outcome of the brainwashing education:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXqWJNOAX8M

  • provIdence

    The problem about the Korean comfort women is whether there was military kidnapping of such women as governmental policy of Japan. Mr. Tanaka, who worked for MOFA, briefly said that the Kono statement did not admit such governmental involvement. Ms. Sakurai is saying that the statement could be misunderstood as admitting governmental involvement, which actually occurred, intentionally or not, and causing the Wednesday protests at the Japanese embassy in Seoul and resolutions and even erection of some monuments in the US.

    It appears that Korean (former) professors could keep their face only by intervention of the NHK moderator. She appeared to be wanting to continue the discussion till Korean professors would admit that the comfort women issue was a mere fabrication.

    Asking resolution in historial problems appears like quarrels in new Korean classes to determine the order of supremacy among students. Koreans must feel very uneasy to live in an environment where the societal order is uncertain.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    But my point is, (I agree that the Korean men looked a bit like 꿀먹은 벙어리, they look more like government officials here rather than professors except one of them, and you have to understand the whole thing is being conducted in Japanese, which probably gives a little handicap) that when it’s done and dusted, it’s still what “Ms Tanaka said”. It would have been better to actually have Kono Youhei on the show.

    When somebody says “I actually heard from so and so” or “when so and so said something” at a discussion, of course it’s hard to refute or agree – they have to back it by evidence.

    As for whether the statement could mislead (and I look at Kono statement again) then it should not have been made, but it was. That is Japanese government’s culpability, especially if they NOW want to say, it was misleading. Like one of the Korean guy at the show says in answer to the same old question “how many apologies enough?”, all Korea wants to know “the real feeling” of the Japanese, and this is not going to be achieved any time soon if Kono says, then later Sakurai(although she is not of the government she represents that faction in power now I would say)says this, and later somebody says..
    If Korean government was guilty of not representing, and not taking up the cause of the women earlier, or delving into the matter earlier to show a conclusive evidence of the Japanese miltary involvement (the state of Korea since the war, was not fit and you know Park was not as great as that Sakurai woman makes out) I would say the Japanese government’s guilty by orders of magnitude more for possible destroying/interference of evidence, non-admission, and back-and-forth stance on the matter since. And her attitude certainly isn’t going to help shed light on the matter.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Asking resolution in historial problems appears like quarrels in new Korean classes to determine the order of supremacy among students. Koreans must feel very uneasy to live in an environment where the societal order is uncertain.

    I see you just added this erai-souna sentence at the end of your comment which I find not so clear. Hm, I think they find it almost too easy because in problems like this, the grey zone becomes quite small.
    Women like Sakurai and Japanese right wing politicians are usually laughing stock fringes of European politics supported by fringe fundamental groups. I would worry about the state of the Japanese students who live in such a society first before the Koreans.

  • Genie

    The French government is not forcing the world to use the French name. They only try to protect their cultural identity in their own country. They don’t have the cyber diplomatic organization like VANK that does things like spamming into foreign media companies and international organizations. And don’t tell me you don’t know that President Roh proposed “Sea of Peace” as an alternative. Considering the lack of consistency in thier assertion, we must conclude that the only reason Koreans want to change the name of the Sea of Japan is that they an’t stand the word “Japan”.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Genie, you are right. Sea of Japan is Sea of Japan. I’m Korean and I never once thought that 동해 should be called anything but Sea of Japan outside Korea. Like the stupid new romanization scheme this is definitely one of the mess-ups.

  • ChuckRamone

    So what if that’s the reason? Everyone has a right to self-determination. How the French do it is their own way of doing it.

    No one’s proposing it be called the Korean Sea, except for the North Korean government, but they don’t really represent all of Korea or even all North Koreans, they just have a dictatorship. Korea is also not involved in territorial disputes with every one of its neighbors like Japan is.

  • provIdence

    Does the Haan, which may not be visible, disappear forever when a man or woman associated with it goes to grave?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Very deep question, but a surprisingly easy one too.
    Probably not according to Macbeth.
    However, it’s all the more reason, because the number of halmonis alive is presumed small compared to the silent dead who died there and then. It would be great that the living feel avenged with the admission from the Japanese government that they were not just 매춘부s but were victims of a Japanese military organized crime, but possibly those who did die at the hands of the Army-sanctioned rapists would feel like they could rest in the grave. In Korea there is even “SALPURI” (살풀이) dance performed by 무당 in the Shaman business to find peace for the dead.

  • provIdence

    Where is the dance performed? At the grave, some special place, or any place depending on the case?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Nowadays mostly in concert halls, because I think it’s become one of those “intangible cultural assets” so more of an artform. But in the old days I’ve seen from film, that it would be more a set-up with food/altar in the middle of the yard or somewhere like that – I guess because most of the time the bodies are not recoverable…

    I think Final Fantasy does a very beautiful job of creating something similar to salpuri – Yuna’s dress almost looks Korean!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PWC6vUext0

    More recently, I think Park Chanwook shot a short art film (forgot the name) entirely with an iphone which also explores this concept…I think it won the Golden Bear at the Berlin Film festival a few years ago..

  • JP

    So, there is no problem. No one lost land because of the land survey. The land in deep mountain area that no one claimed belonged to Governor General. The only problem is that Korean textbooks are inaccurate, and imprint undue hate against Japan to Korean students. That is what I call hate education.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Turn on your sarcasm detector, if you have one.

  • provIdence

    A few more questions, and your wild imagination for old Korea is very acceptable. Do you think a Mudan dancer is available for appeasing the soul of Gim Okgyun (金 玉均)?

  • JP

    Sorry, I did not know your comments were sarcasm.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Depends. Do I have to borrow the sarcasm detector from JP after he’s finished with it to understand the agenda of the question?

  • que337

    Japan’s colonization of Korea was null and void ab initio because it lacked ratification of Korean emperor:

    http://www.japanfocus.org/-Totsuka-Etsuro/3493

    Therefore, whatever Japan did in Korea during colonial period was illegal and invalid.

  • provIdence

    Do you say that the Mudan dancer is not impartial in her services? I wonder how the dancer chooses souls to which she might give her services.

    I am asking this because the concept of Korean Haan appeared in some sense similar to that of Japanese Shinto, as I understand, with Shinto priests as Mudans. In Shinto, souls of those who died with unfulfilled minds are thought to be strong and very destructive to those surviving, and must be enshrined and appeased to contain such souls. If enshrined ‘war criminals’ remain unappeased, such souls will give harm to those who prevent their appeasement. You don’t need to worry this because it could be a superstition. Koreans and Chinese would have no trouble of such souls. You will be as happy as ever. (Beep, Beep, Beep) Everything is OK in the North as long as Choco Pies are flowing as ever.

    It has been a long detour. As I have heard that you have recently read the Kono statement, I would like you to point out its portion which, you think, admits Japanese policy of kidnapping Korean women, and copy-paste it in your comment.

    http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/women/fund/state9308.html

  • Genie

    Out of 193 countries in the world, only South Korea describes the body of
    water separated from the Pacific Ocean by Japan as the ‘East Sea’. All the other
    countries rightly call it the ‘Sea of Japan’.

  • ChuckRamone

    “Rightly” according to whom or what criteria? Use of that word makes it sound like some moral imperative.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Everything is OK in the North as long as Choco Pies are flowing as ever

    Are you North Korean? That sounds too close to what a Norht Korean would say.

    Anyway, my answer is the whole Kono statement admits Japanese military involvement from their “findings” whatever that was, and moreover, their stance “pledging” that they would uncover more, rather than withdrawing it willy-nilly in the future.

    This clip is for those who want to watch Paranmanjang (Meaning all sorts of dramatic ups and downs in one’s life- English Title “Night Fishing”)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tRlqPQ7dAw
    Here the 무당 does more of a 굿 than a salpuri dance… Usually I don’t like Park Chanwook’s works (too derivative) but this film is OK.

    Going back to your other point of “War Criminals” enshrined, I also thought about that when I took my dog out for a walk – I don’t know what’s worse, the people who committed the atrocities, or the people who deny now what’s happened or think that they did nothing wrong under thinking that history is objective. If you don’t believe me, go and watch the Journeyman Documentary I linked to – that old guy who says “he would do it again”. Aren’t you “appeasing” some of these souls? Can you not leave it to the Guards at the Gates of Hell or Ghostbusters to contain them? And yeah, Maybe 무당 could be hired to protect the Japanese citizen from the evil ki if that’s what it takes.

    Maybe it was a silly drama I picked it up from but somebody said “Remeber it also hurts your hand to punch somebody”. . I think that crazy things go on under group-think during a war situation, and there is room for healing, but I think the Japanese do need to widen their appeasing outside their own. I think it will happen eventually when they realize where they stand in the changing world, and the crazy voices get drowned by the more sensible ones. At least I hope so.

  • bumfromkorea

    Yes, the South Koreans are forcing people of the world to use the label “East Sea”. Oh wait, South Koreans are not the supreme overlords of the planet Earth, and all they’re doing is petitioning/trying to convince others to label it “East Sea”. Those bastards!

  • Genie

    What so you say about this article?

    A Country of Liars by Kim Dae-joong

    In every country there are crimes that uniquely reflect its society. National Intelligence Service director-designate Kim Seung-kyu, in a lecture he gave late in May when he was justice minister, said: “The three representative crimes of our country are perjury, libel and fraud.” In simple comparison, not taking into account population ratio, South Korea saw 16 times as many perjury cases in 2003 than Japan, 39 times as many libel cases and 26 times as many instances of fraud. That is extraordinarily high given Japan’s population is three times our own.

    The common denominator of the three crimes is lying; in short, we live in a country of liars. The prosecution devotes 70 percent of its work to handling the three crimes, the former justice minister said. And because suspects lie so much, the indictment rate in fraud cases is 19.5 percent, in perjury 29 percent and in libel 43.1 percent. “Internationally, too, there is a perception that South Korea’s representative crime is fraud,” Kim said, adding that recent major scandals show how rampant lying is in this country.

    The prosecution is not free from responsibility, since there is a sense in which its ingrained attitude in dealing with suspects for libel, fraud and perjury has contributed to making the crimes the scourge they have become.

    Lying is so common in our society because few recognize that it leads to crime. “What’s wrong with telling a little lie?” they think. And here the big problem is that men of power, rather than ordinary citizens, indulge in lying on a massive scale, to the point where it is regarded as a necessary means of survival in some circles.

    A recent example that hurt us all is the lies of Kim Dae-yeop, finally punished by a court for fabricating a charge against the opposition presidential candidate in the 2002 elections. That lie determined the fate of a government. When the opposition party demanded an apology, he laughed in their face by sending apples — phonetically, both apples and apology are “sagwa.”

    More staggering lies were told by the president’s associates in the KORAIL “Oilgate” scandal. Deft alterations of wording by an influential lawmaker close to the chief executive and sudden failures of memory and brazen denials by others have all turned out to be false. Nonetheless, they managed to slip the clutches of the law, as if to show us that they can. We can well imagine why the ex-justice minister made his complaint.

    Such behavior generally has its roots in the arrogance and egotism of those who feel that what they do is always right and anything that gets in the way is wrong. It also springs from a perception that the best strategy is to reject anything that does not fit in with your beliefs — for example by thinking that you don’t have to abide by laws you have decided are “evil”.

    We can glimpse in the way our presidents wield their enormous power a sense that it is all right on occasion for you to distort a situation or slander others short of outright lying if that is what it takes to achieve your aims. Nor can it be denied that our cultural climate has justified the perception that if you manage to get out of a tight spot by lying first, you will be able to overcome the whole matter one way or the other.

    In Western European countries, the life of a politician or bureaucrat comes to an end when their lies are revealed. Mistakes they forgive; lies never. The lies of leaders and men of power are subject to punishment tens and hundreds of times heavier than that given ordinary people, and to call someone a liar is the ultimate insult. In Japan, children are taught from infancy that honesty and frankness are the highest personal values.

    We, too, need nationwide education to foster a public perception that lying is a crime that degrades human nature and causes a plethora of social evils. We must thoroughly punish slander and deception of others. Our leadership and the entire country have much to learn from the mother in Gwangju who early in June sent her son back to police after false testimony got him off an assault charge, with a request that he be taught some honesty.
    http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/07/03/2005070361027.html

  • Genie

    Do you also claim that Korea’s independence from China in 1895 was null and void
    because the treaty of Shimonoseki was not signed by Korea? Then, China can just
    say that Korea was a vassal state of China for many centuries and that
    gives them the right to do whatever they want to Korea.
    Afterall, it is the same justification used by China to sending troops to subjugate formally independent Tibet.

  • jk641

    The “East Sea” issue is not a big issue at all.
    I personally don’t care what that body of water is called. I doubt other Koreans would care much either.

    The biggest issues for Koreans regarding relations with Japan are Dokdo and comfort women.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    English teachers in Korea, meet English teacher in Japan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEnDynAEu_4

  • provIdence

    The Choco Pie is referring to the Gaeseong industrial park. I thought NK might not be serious about making a fuss if the factories were working as usual.

    The Mudan appears similar to some sharmanism existing in Japan, but much different from Shinto at least as it appears now. Where the Haan goes when the owner goes to grave is still in question. Mrs. Bishop said in her book that every Korean has three souls, one for the underworld, one for the tomb, and one for the tablet. When I read it, I thought families of Korean soldiers dedicating their lives in WW2 need not worry about their enshrinement at Yasukuni, because their “no souls” have been enshrined at Yasukuni so far as their three souls were handled properly.

    As for the Kono statement, your understanding appears different from that of Mr. Tanaka, formerly at MOFA, who could be in a position of preparing the draft, and the discussion cannot go any further. Some good English teachers may be able to help us in understanding.

    I also refrain from commenting on something you have withdrawn.

  • que337

    You seem having serious misunderstanding between tributary relation and colony. Even with the tributary relation with China, Chosun was able to maintain her own military, laws, and the Royal political system. I think it’s like the relation between USSR and Poland, Czechoslovakia, or East Germany.

    The treaty of Shimonoseki was agreement between Qing and Japan not to bother Korea and fully acknowledge her political independence. And later Japan violated its terms by the null and void annexation. With the illegal colonial rule, Japan destroyed Korean military, laws, and Royal jurisdiction.

  • provIdence

    Have you forgotten already that Korea begged Japan for annexation?

    http://japanese.joins.com/article/651/18651.html

  • que337

    You can also technically say that Japan begged America for a-bombs.

  • provIdence

    Don’t forget that about one-third of the A-bomb victims were innocent Koreans including a Korean nobility.

  • que337

    Don’t forget that many of them were forced labor and for many years, Koreans in Japan had a difficult time fighting for recognition as atomic bomb victims.

  • provIdence

    Most Koreans came to Japan at their own will, looking for or applying to job opportunities. At the time of bombing, Japan neither had any prior experience in treatment of A-bombed patients. Korean doctors could have been as good.

  • que337

    Werner Gruhl,Imperial Japan’s World War Two: 1931-1945, p 111:

    “Koreans were another source of forced or cheap labor. Some of these Koreans labored in Korea while a large number were sent to Manchuria and Japan to work. Those who were paid received wages that were half those of the Japanese in comparable jobs, and when money became badly devalued by inflation, it caused hardship and death from privation. As m any as 5.4 million Koreans were conscripted to labor for the Japanese from 1939 to 1945. Some 670,000 Koreans were brought to Japan to work, mostly in mines and heavy industry, and approximately 60,000 died under the harsh work-place conditions. On Tinian, one of the Mariana Islands, the Japanese murdered five
    thousand Korean laborers before the Americans invaded. Close to 400,000 Korean laborers lost their lives due to the war.”

  • JP

    The treaty in your link does not say, “This treaty is subject to ratification”. So, signature alone is enough. The treaty is signed by the Foreign Minister on behalf of the Korean Empire. The signature of the Korean Emperor is not required. You say the Foreign Minister signed it against the Korean Emperor’s will? That is too bad. Next time, he should choose a better Foreign Minister. He should have protested Japan immediately, rather than sending secret mission to The Hague.

    Here is the power of attorney issued, signed and sealed by the Korean Emperor, in which he clearly commands that a treaty to merge Japan and Korea be concluded. Merger with Japan was clearly his will.

    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:General_power_of_attorney_to_Lee_Wan-Yong_signed_and_sealed_by_Sunjong.jpg

  • que337

    Firstly, you missed reading in the article “At the time Korea’s domestic law included provisions for concluding treaties which stipulated that signed treaties had to be approved and ratified by Emperor Kojong through his signature and seal.”

    Secondly, it was Emperor Kojong, not Sunjong, who refused to ratify the 1905 Protectorate Treaty. It is evident that the Korean emperor was against the treaty. He sent Yi Jun and two other Korean envoys to 1907 Hague Peace Conference with the document that declare to the treaty was illegal and not valid. The document sent by Emperor Kojong had Royal Seal on it, which the 1905 Treaty lack.

    Thirdly, in the 1910 Annexation Treaty, consent was not given by former Emperor Kojong, who was illegally deprived of his authority by Japan.

  • que337

    Okay, now Long Island Holocaust Memorial takes enforced military sexual slavery issue:

    http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/03/22/2013032201061.html

  • provIdence

    General mobilization in Japan started in 1939, as Mr. Gruhl says, but its enactment in the Korean peninsula had been suspended until August 1944. Mobilization from peninsula to mainland technically existed only for a period of 8 months because shipping between Busan and Shimonoseki was suspended in March 1945.

    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/国民徴用令#.E6.9C.9D.E9.AE.AE.E3.81.AB.E3.81.8A.E3.81.91.E3.82.8B.E6.96.BD.E8.A1.8C

    The description by the writer appears inaccurate and he cannot be a serious scholar.

    I would rather wish you study truths of the annexation of Japan and Korea.

  • ff525828

    diaff please

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