Miki Dezaki, a second-generation Japanese-American teaching in Japan, is apparently under attack from the Japanese netizenry for giving a lesson to his students on Japanese racism and discrimination (HT to James).
Wait, I thought hypernationalist netizens fucking with foreigners who criticize their host nation was something that didn’t happen in Japan.
Anyway, I didn’t know about the “bakachon camera” thing—apparently, some Japanese refer to disposable cameras by a term that means “a camera so simple even an idiot or Korean could use it.”
The comment discussion on the WaPo link is quite interesting. I certainly feel for the guy—nobody should have to put up with getting hounded by online mobs of radical nationalists. How’d you like to get this phone call?
But the outrage continued to mount, both online and in the real world. At one point, Dezaki says he was contacted by an official in Okinawa’s board of education, who warned that a member of Japan’s legislature might raise it on the floor of the National Diet, Japan’s lower house of parliament. Apparently, the netouyu may have succeeded in elevating the issue from a YouTube comments field to regional and perhaps even national Japanese politics.
That few of his students thought there were racism and discrimination in Japan but nearly all thought it was a strictly American phenomenon was probably telling, too—reminds me of the story (perhaps apocryphal) of the Chinese student who said there was no racism in China because China didn’t have any black people.
That said, there’s also merit to the argument that as a guy hired to teach English, he shouldn’t be holding social science lessons, especially on controversial issues. If he spent his days preaching about Japan’s perceived social ills rather than teaching English, I’d say there’s a problem. Sometimes, though, you present controversial topics to students in English conversation classes to get them talking. I have no idea what this lesson was, and from what I can gather, his school actually liked whatever it was before the 2ch brigade started calling.
PS: Apparently, not everyone thinks racism is a problem in Japan.
{ 202 comments… read them below or add one }
Ah, the “bakachon” camera. Yeah, I’m not surprised by that.
If he had praised Japan then the Japanese papers would have called him Japanese American. Since he criticized it, I’m sure the papers are calling him American.
At least one thing in Japan is the same as Korea…
Well, you see, that’s the other thing. I said he shouldn’t be teaching social studies, but at the same time, I’m sure if he were giving lessons on how the Comfort Women are lying whores and how it was really America that started the Pacific War, nobody at 2ch would be complaining.
PS: I’m surprised nobody has chimed in with a “Yeah, but it would be the same/worse if some teacher in Korea did that” comment yet.
Well, It’s only 1 PM in Korea. Wait a while, you know how it can get.
It would be the same or worse had it happened in Korea since Korea is the same or worse as Japan when it comes to our minjok blood is better than yours type thinking. Korea was a diligent student of Japan in this and so many other things as everyone knows.
Well, one could say that the Japanese were simply good students of Western style racism and imperialism.
Oh, you mean all the obedient Wapanese at JapanProbe?
Check out their latest post:http://www.japanprobe.com/2013/02/21/new-academic-article-explores-the-inaccurate-portrayal-of-the-comfort-women-issue/
- Softbank. So easy to create even a Korean can do it….
- Kyokushin Karate. So easy to create even a Korean can do it.
- Yakiniku. So easy to create even a Korean can do it.
- Pachinko parlor. So easy to create even a Korean can do it.
- Kudara Kannon (a Japanese national treasure). So easy to carve even a Korean can do it.
- etc….
That guy wouldn’t be considered an American by the 2ch users. He’s already probably getting accused as a Korean disguising himself as a Japanese American. He’s a “baka-chon”.
Sounds exactly like the usual Marmot’s commentators thrashing on the stupid dumb incompetent local Koreans. Japan doesn’t have that monopoly on that regard.
Whether his criticisms were true or not, this guy lacks prudence similar to that of many gyopos.
A tightly argued paper with upwards of 274 footnotes – which is dishonestly misrepresented as treating the issue as one simply involving “lying whores” – deserves better than this ignorantly ad hominem summary dismissal
Why do we think controversial lessons are the key to getting our Asian students to talk? Seriously, is that what we as native speakers engage in conversation everyday with fellow expats, family and friends? No, we talk about life events and habits, interests, work, etc. I use lessontopics.com which are non intrusive and practical for my adult korean students. They tell me they enjoy them.
I don’t know if it was lack of prudence or just too much innocence.
Well… read my comments AND the comment I put on JapanProbe. I didn’t dismiss it. I did question the blog’s judgement in explicitly taking a side.
That entire site is a pro Nationalist Japan site, calling for the leadership of Tojo to come back.. rah rah Japan! Every second article is about Korea or China doing something bad to poor victimized Japan. It’s a hack site, I don’t take them seriously, and you shouldn’t either. Trying to debate over there is like debating with convicted cons in the state prison.
Yeah, but I like the weird cat commercials.
But it certainly is funny watching the whole thing. Even the existence of racism is denied in Japan, it’s not just the WWII history issues. Their whole culture is built on denials. Just make me chuckle and shake my head.
Yes, and it’s hurting them, not helping them. That’s the real tragedy.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/south-koreas-hottest-import-foreign-workers
“Japan has largely rejected imported labor as a solution to its aging workforce, but South Korea is starting to accept it.”
It’s a nation in denial. It’s not funny, it’s not a joke. It’s just sad.
Nah, I think that’s bullshit that he should just stick to tame topics to teach English. Some of the best lessons that have helped me even today have occurred when teachers diverged from their subjects.
A korean apologist complaining about Japan as a culture of denial! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
No, that’s more like Korean nutizens complaining about and stalking “low quality English teachers”.
Who’s complaining? Just amused. You can turn it around the other way, a Korea basher racist hater, complaining about pot and kettle? pffftt… get outta here and don’t waste my time.
Sure, but an English class lecture becoming causing a national uproar and conservative politicians bringing it up in parliament? Now, don’t bother saying such a thing would happen in the US too. The US is hardly exemplary. We all know American politics are fkt.
I’m embarrassed to ask this because I should really believe that you are only joking, but are you?
I’ve been in this part of the world long enough to no longer be certain or surprised either way. I’m starting to despise myself for it.
If it’s true, I’ve gotta get outta here. If it’s not, I’ve gotta get outta here. I guess I just want to know the reason.
Korean apologist mo:
1. Passive-agreesive posturing – check
2. non-sensical analogy – check
3. unsubstantiated and false ad hominem slur -check
4. lack of pertinent evidence-based reasoned argument – check
Gong, gong, gong – we have a winner!
Perhaps I misspoke. I don’t think controversial lessons are “key” to getting Asian students to talk.
Well, yeah, sometimes. I suppose some more than others.
Touche, Spewer. Just read your first response to me. Now you can’t tell me that post doesn’t match your own 4 point qualifications of a douche bag?
You mean your comment that’s currently flagged for moderation over there?
It’s STILL under moderation? Wow. But notice that the poster’s reply to me ISN’T under moderation. That’s real fair.
Now don’t go all Q on us wangkon.
Your list shows that Zainichi were able succeed despite whatever prejudices against them exist in Japan.
Well…. let’s take that a little further. How many more Zainichis would have succeeded if the Japanese weren’t so racist? Did you know that Masayoshi Son was a hair away from staying in the U.S. after he graduated from UC Berkeley? Since there wasn’t any discrimination for him in California he actually started to use his Korean name, Son Jeong-ui, for the first time. There were a ton of Silicon Valley firms that would of taken him. Hell, he could have build his own company in the U.S. But… he made a promise to his Korean grandmother to return back to Japan and the rest is history.
As I said before, this hurts the Japanese more than it helps them.
Yes, but unlike prgatoried posts here it’s accessible just by clicking
Actually, I think Koreans, over the past decade, have grown somewhat, if not much more, reflective about racism in their own society. There have been many triggers–Hines Ward and his mother’s experience, the growing phenomenon of both imported brides and imported workers, the court decision about the Indian man on the bus getting racially slurred, etc. Don’t know enough about Japan to draw a comparison, but it seems they’ve lacked similar high-profile events or clear demographic shifts that have spurred them to serious self-reflection.
But he didn’t stay in the U.S., he returned to Japan and became one of the richest men in the world. How many non-Koreans or even non-chaebol have achieved such success in South Korea? Is it possible that a few Koreans who were proud of Fleur Pellerin’s appointment to the French Cabinet also were not so happy at Jasmine Lee’s election to the National Assembly?
I think his understanding of “bakachon” is mistaken. “Baka” can certainly mean foolproof. “Chon” does not mean Korean. “Chon” is a mimetic or onomatopoeic for pushing the shutter button or the shuttering sound.
There are a lot of Koreans in Japan, but they look too similar to the Japanese for the Japanese to really think there are a lot of immigrants among them.
Kang Duk-soo, Chairman and funder of STX Corporation. Not from a chaebol family. T.J. Kim, founder of NCSoft. Not from chaebol family. Seung Woo Choi, funder of Nexon. Not from chaebol family. There are more, especially in the mid and and upper mid levels.
Anyways, you do have a point. The chaebol do kind of crowd out ordinary Koreans from achieving more success. However, racism (or even classism) isn’t the reason why they are kept from succeeding.
“Chon” is short for “Chosenjin”, and it is certainly a derogatory term for “Korean”.
Abosolutely. So we’re agreed that its wrong whoever does it?
One minute ur saying u were a crap English teacher when you worked that gig, next minute ur giving advice about lesson planning.
provIdence,
The origins of “baka-chon” is in fact derogatory towards Koreans. However, in all fairness to the Japanese, many Japanese who use it don’t know of its racist origins or that it is offensive. It’s kind of worked it’s way into the Japanese language.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/03/1022522/-Niggerheads-Paddy-Wagons-and-Baka-Chon-Cameras-Reflections-on-Prejudice-Barbarism-and-Etymology
There is another word in the Japanese language that has Korean etymology and that’s Kudaranai, which means “worthless.” It’s not a bad meaning actually. It literally means “Not of or from Kudara.” Back in the 7th century A.D. all the good stuff, like art, literature, statescraft and technology came from the Korean kingdom of Baekje, but the Japanese called said kingdom Kudara. If it didn’t come from Kudara, then it would be considered worthless or pointless.
Your sentence may be right, but “chon” of “Bakachon” is nothing related to Korean.
Providence,
You are wrong:
http://books.google.com/books?id=NJ3uIXixGqQC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=baka-chon&source=bl&ots=nj500VLkrv&sig=1Qgk1mNkDd0KSVgcDOgsVfWEzO4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W3AoUZXSIMqeiAKVwoGQDA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=baka-chon&f=false
Sioux, here is some free advice. Robert himself has only one rule for banning and that’s not to criticize the blog owner. Again, this one is free.
Let me do the warnings regarding that point, Wangkon.
Not a warning…. free advice….
On Korean nationalist distortion of history generally, see Henry Em, “The Great Enterprise: Sovereignty and Historiography in Modern Korea (Duke University Press, 2013).
For the Korean nationalist distortion of colonial collaboration, see Koen DeCuester, “The Nation Exorcised: The Historiography of Collaboration in South Korea,”Korean Studies, Volume 25, Number 2, 2001.
For the Korean nationalist distortion of the comfort women issue, see Soh, Chunghee Sarah, The comfort women: Sexual violence and postcolonial memory in Korea and Japan, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2009).
Come back when you have finished your homework.
Don’t worry; I won;t be holding my breath.
The author must be mistaken. I don’t bother reading the reference now.
You are also mistaken on “Kudaranai.” “Kudaru” means coming from Kyoto. “Kudaranai” refers to something not (usually) coming from Kyoto. Whatever the etimology might be, “Kudaranai” is certainly not derogatory to Koreans.
WK: The only comment I see here is your commenting on Robert’s comment to (inaccurately) characterize the article in question as nothing more than a crude dismissal of the comfort women as “lying whores”. Your comment at Japan Probe is equally bereft of substance, simply taking the blog owners to task for “taking sides” by simply publishing a thoroughly researched and carefully reasoned academic article, i.e, you’re in effect saying, the article is just an instance of Wapanese toadying because it apparently isn’t an example of drink the soju toadying. If that’s not a rationally unsubstantiated dismissal, what is?
Sperwer,
It wasn’t just that post, but it was a number of other posts that JapanProbe had published that made it appear to take a side on a controversial topic.
It was of my opinion that JapanProbe shouldn’t take a side. I think it is within my right to express an opinion. Anyone is free to disagree with me.
There are very well cited scholarly works on the comfort women topic coming from both sides. I think it would show more integrity if a major blog quoted sources from both sides and let the readers decide for themselves. I don’t think that is an unreasonable request at all.
This cached site, from an author named Takeru Mikami, would claim that it is not:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://kitombo.com/e/mikami/0709.html
Sure, you’re entitled to your opinion.
But now you are back-pedaling. Here your opinion is that the article is nothing but Wapanese twaddle, which you don’t really substantiate, but instead direct us to your comment at JP.
There, however, you also don’t come to grips with the substance of the article itself, but demand “balance”. But that’s a red herring insofar as the argument of the article is concerned. JP very well may not be presenting a balanced account of the whole issue, but that doesn’t speak to the merits of the article itself; in fact it’s simply irrelevant in that regard.
… and regarding your objections to the racist etymology of “baka-chon.” Okay then. Give me one English language source that supports your claims that there is no racist origin to that word. Give me just one.
it’s a fact that japan occupied korea. it’s a fact they aimed to destroy korea’s culture. you can bring all of those other facts about a people under a brutal occupation perpatrated by a nation of savages
if you wan to, but you won’t get very far in the public. go ahead and tell the world that daddy sold his daughter. you’ll be doing korea a favor.
people like sperwer must remain in the shadows of the internet to promote their garbage. sunlight is a good disinfectant.
How is the air and water quality down there in the putrid miasma of your little well of ressentiment, little man?
Isn’t that a bit like a snail making fun of a hermit crab for living in a trailer home?
I agree to stay away from sociology as long as the students don’t expect me to discuss TV dramas and K-pop. So far that approach as worked for me.
I wouldn’t know; why don’t you tell us.
Uh, lack of prudence is lack of prudence.
The cause of same may be lack of experience or “innocence” as you put it, but its still lack of prudence.
Why, they were colonising Japan and treating the aboriginals badly long before any significant western influence.
Free to disagree? I thought you “warned” those types.
Why are you arguing with a japanese guy about a japanese word’s meaning and demand him to reference an English source?
It is a silly story for Japanese, and I can only find some Japanese references. Please translate the following into Korean to read. The word is explained in the last paragraph. So-called “bakachon” cameras have been much smarter than disposable cameras:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/コンパクトカメラ#.E5.91.BC.E7.A7.B0.E3.81.AB.E3.81.A4.E3.81.84.E3.81.A6
By the way, discrimination is a big business, and those discriminated do not want to be free from discrimination. In the US, for example, there was a case where medical colleges accepted 10 to 15 percent of their admission from black applicants. Many other applicants who were otherwise eligible for admission sought their opportunities in foreign countries.
WK, this is funny. Even racial slurs don’t exist in Japan. Nothing that exist in Japan really exists.
Yes, there are good-willed Japanese who want to get along well with Koreans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CifcFrw62aE
No, it’s a racial epithet
Prof. Mark J. McLelland, University of Wollongong, a sociologist and cultural historian of Japan have words:
Ooh, good one. Haven’t heard that since 6th grade.
I think that the word “bakachon” was used in later 1970s and early 1980s when Korea was under PCH and CDH administration. Koreans in this period were like clams speaking almost nothing. That is, relations between Japan and Korea had little tention during that time. There is no reason for Japanese to associate such good cameras with Koreans. Japanese are usually not so much conscious about Koreans as Koreans might think. The theory of the Baka-chon etymology must have been employed by many anti-Japanese writers because the theory is interesting and persuasive, and they never forget for life after they heard it once.
It is not. When we hit keys 1, 2, 3 on the keyboard, we hit them saying chon, chon, chon. This applies also to the shutter button on cameras. Ask any Japanese around you, or anyone who lived in Japan long enough to learn it.
Isn’t the internet great. It allows shitheads like yourself to say shit that would, in real life
get your head cracked open.
Hopefully you’ll suffer the same fate fucking cunt.
Please turn to the loaded gun in your drawer, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger,
blowing your brains out. You’ll be doing the whole world a favor. Shitbag.
I would love to smash your face in until it no longer resembled anything human, faggot.
Die painfully okay? Prefearbly by getting crushed to death in a
garbage compactor, by getting your face cut to ribbons with a
pocketknife, your head cracked open with a baseball bat, your stomach
sliced open and your entrails spilled out, and your eyeballs ripped
out of their sockets. Fucking bitch
I would love to kick you hard in the face, breaking it. Then I’d cut
your stomach open with a chainsaw, exposing your intestines. Then I’d
cut your windpipe in two with a boxcutter.
Hopefully you’ll get what’s coming to you. Fucking bitch
I really hope that you get curb-stomped. It’d be hilarious to see you
begging for help, and then someone stomps on the back of your head,
leaving you to die in horrible, agonizing pain. Faggot
Shut the fuck up f aggot, before you get your face bashed in and cut
to ribbons, and your throat slit….
Isn’t the internet great. It allows shitheads like yourself to say shit that would, in real life
get your head cracked open.
Hopefully you’ll suffer the same fate fucking cunt.
Please turn to the loaded gun in your drawer, put it in your mouth, and pull the trigger,
blowing your brains out. You’ll be doing the whole world a favor. Shitbag.
I would love to smash your face in until it no longer resembled anything human, faggot.
Die painfully okay? Prefearbly by getting crushed to death in a
garbage compactor, by getting your face cut to ribbons with a
pocketknife, your head cracked open with a baseball bat, your stomach
sliced open and your entrails spilled out, and your eyeballs ripped
out of their sockets. Fucking bitch
I would love to kick you hard in the face, breaking it. Then I’d cut
your stomach open with a chainsaw, exposing your intestines. Then I’d
cut your windpipe in two with a boxcutter.
Hopefully you’ll get what’s coming to you. Fucking bitch
I really hope that you get curb-stomped. It’d be hilarious to see you
begging for help, and then someone stomps on the back of your head,
leaving you to die in horrible, agonizing pain. Faggot
Shut the fuck up f aggot, before you get your face bashed in and cut
to ribbons, and your throat slit.
Come to the Marmot, feel better about your temper
Okay, let’s listen to a current resident in Japan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOVtOgCbHE&t=2m27s
seriously, hope you get your windpipe slashed
I am almost deaf to spoken English, but I can tell that he is silly. Tsumbo and deaf are the same thing, and he is saying that tsumbo is derogatory and deaf is not. I believe that there are many similar words in Korean. Is not it silly to be too strict on words when there are no good replacements. I explained his bakachon already.
I have never intentionally visited 2Channel. Those bakachons used in 10 and 12 are derogatory and obviously come from the Bakachon camera, but the latter is not derogatory in its origin as I explained before.
Note that the 2ch thread is claiming that South Korean took medals from Japan in London Olympics:
Are you in total denial? Baka-chon absolutely, positively refers to Koreans. My Japanese wife knows that.
The Japanese are stuck at 19th century nationalism ( a form of racism) and this guy explains the 21st century concept. No wonder that he got death threats. Don’t throw pearls to swines.
This Japanese backwardness will lead to China-Japan war. Because China is stuck at 19th century as well. Two countries with severe retardation. They need war and mucho deaths to learn about the world- and grow up.
Sperwer. I admit you probably got an “A+” in your Intro to Philosophy class. Damn you know your fallacies.
But I’m afraid you’re too focused on the leaves and not the forest.
Sure, Dezaki didn’t come out with an eloquent, logically-sound argument. We must remember, his audience isn’t us, it’s his own students — HS Japanese kids in Okinawa without a great command of English nor an appreciation of well-researched ideas. I agree with your assessment that he failed on your 4 points.
BUT, the forest is: He is one of just a few people with big enough balls, Debito A. being another, to point out the elephant in the room. In fact, I think he was actually being nice about it.
The Burakumin problem is real. I once bought a book at a local bookstore just because I thought it was incredulous that it would outline all the areas in map where modern day burakumin supposedly live. I used that book in my cross-cultural understanding class to ask the question: How do you think American would react if a publisher published a book outlining where African-Americans tend to live? The lesson is in empathy.
If you want documented proof of discrimination in Japan, check out the reasoning, for example, of reasons why the Hague Convention was rejected until recently (implicit discrimination: http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/04/16/japan-unlikely-to-ratify-hague-convention-any-time-soon/)
Arudou also has tons of research on discrimination (as well as the infamous personal experience he had), but some are admittedly skewed towards his thesis. But others are very reasonable. You don’t need to know how to read Japanese to make out the meanings of the many examples here: http://www.debito.org/nihongo.html
My point is: Racism is everywhere, yet racism is a form of stereo-typing, which is bad and which, I’m sure you’ll agree, leads to many errors in critical thinking. To take a stand like Dezaki has is to be commended. Period. Pointing out his errors is fine, but should be put into perspective.
Give him credit where credit is due.
Typical jap. apologist mo:
1. Passive-agreesive posturing – check
2. non-sensical analogy – check
3. unsubstantiated and false ad hominem slur -check
4. lack of pertinent evidence-based reasoned argument – check
5. argument of “koreans do the same thing to us!” – check
DING DING DING, WINNER!
It’s interesting. The discussion on bakachon whether it was derogatory or not occurred, possibly, around 1985. At that time, most Japanese did not know, as I believe, that “chon” could mean Koreans. There are only 0.5 M Zainichi koreans in more than 100 M Japanese in Japan and they are heavily concentrated in Osaka and other nearby areas. I wonder how old she was at that time.
Anyways, it is so convenient. Ask her to read the following and explain them to you. If you have understood by her explanation, you must help me in explaining it to others here. I would like to thank you in advance:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/バカチョン
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/コンパクトカメラ#.E5.91.BC.E7.A7.B0.E3.81.AB.E3.81.A4.E3.81.84.E3.81.A6
Are you OK? Can your above post mean that you understood that “bakachon” of the Bakachon camera was not derogatory in its original meaning?
Don’t get stuck in the delusional bubble. Every year is different in Korea. “had it happened in Korea” What is this ‘it’ here? Criticizing racism and discrimination in Korea? Hell, Korean major TV channels and newspapers often cover that.
You don’t even have to be in 2ch. As soon as somebody puts up a video about Korea on youtube. It gets attacked by these Japanese clowns.
Would a source in Japanese be better for you? http://i.imgur.com/CxGmJ5j.jpg
Maybe it doesn’t count because the dictionary is run by a white dude? He must be a crazy liberal who secretly hates Japan.
I feel your last line (If it’s true, I’ve gotta get outta here. If it’s not, I’ve gotta get outta here. I guess I just want to know the reason.) sounds similar to one which was written about 100 years ago.
Being an English speaker doesn’t make you an expert in etymology of English words and provIdence has an interest in defending Japan. That leads to the search for third party academic confirmation.
I appreciate knowing you are getting to understand the point.
Okay, here are more from 2ch:
http://anago.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/streaming/1354942841/l50
Why you do not understand the point? The derogatory use of “bakachon” originated from discussion of “bakachon” used in the Bakachon camera because someone proposed that Koreans might take “bakachon” to mean “fool Koreans.” The discussion was wide-spread around 1985. So some people started to use the word to mean “fool Koreans.” Before the discussion started, every Japanese welcomed the bakachon camera because its so easy to take pictures even for a fool: Just press (i.e., “chon”) the shutter button. The “bakachon camera” tradition continues to this day as you appreciate in taking pictures using that of a cell phone (or smart phone). Japanese media do not use the word “bakachon camera” since then not to cause unnecesary misunderstanding.
Whatever the origin of the word is, my point is that it is a derogatory term heavily used when Japanese deride Koreans for the meaning “idiot Koreans.”
Point is that Japan has Kyouhou* problems, just like how Korea has problems with its Gyopo.
*I don’t think they use that word in Japanese, but it’s the Japanese pronunciation for Gyopo.
You can ask them to call some of you as “idiot Koreans” if you please. “Tsumbo” is derogatory, but “deaf” is not derogatory, right?
In the 2ch Korea-bashing thread they are calling Koreans “bakachon” and “chon.” Having eyes do you not see?
So, I suggested that you ask them to call some of your people “idiot Koreans” which you say is not derogatory for you.
Where did I say it is not derogatory, please quote from my comment, or you are a dishonest person in endless denial.
sperwer, dont look like your effort to get out the ‘truth’ is working; from the white house today.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/02/21/white_house_japan_should_do_more_to_address_comfort_women_issue
Well, I asked my wife for confirmation and she said it definitely means Korean people. 馬鹿でもチョンでもできる。I said is that the original meaning or did it at one time refer to the sound of the camera? She said it’s always been a reference to Koreans. Her co-worker also confirmed the meaning. According to the dictionary, the onomatopoeic meaning is a wooden clapping sound, vigorous chopping with a knife, or some slight movement such as a bird landing. I think a camera shutter closing and opening would not be described in that way by most people. It’s more of a click, whoosh, or mechanical noise.
I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to admit it. Every country has racial epithets for others. Koreans have one for the Japanese, and I think most would admit to it.
Marmot Hole Publications, Inc.
Re. fe528528
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your poem. Regrettably, it does not meet our needs at this time.
We wish you success in your future efforts at publication.
Best Regards,
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
I am always saying that “bakachon,” which came from the Bakachon camera, is derogatory, but “bakachon” used as the Bakachon camera” was not derogatory.
Did not you say that some Japanese are using a derogatory term of “bakachon” for “idiot Koreans?” A video you showed said that “tsumbo” for deaf is derogatory but deaf is not derogatory. The non-derogatory term of “idiot Koreans” was copied from your comment, but I am too sleepy to find it.
In the video of the WaPo article, Mr. Dezaki is talking about the Bakachon camera. He says “bakachon” in the Bakachon camera is derogatory word on Koreans. So, I was saying his understanding is wrong. If you understand this point, I am OK. I don’t want to refute everything you say.
It’s not the sound of the shutter, but the motion of pressing keys or buttons with an index finger. Let’s try from “chon.” Please just press 1, 2, 3, saying “chon,” “chon,” “chon.” They will agree. By the way, I grew up near Tokyo and am still living in Tokyo, although I think this “chon” applies to the most part of Japan.
providence you are wrong.
I would like to see a big time fight over the Diayou/Senkaku so that the world can see how idiotic both countries have become. Japan run by right wing nationalist and china communist who manipulate nationalism to deflect attention from themselves.
That would be waenom or jjokbari.
Yes. true.
So we can all understand it and see for ourselves that it’s not B.S.
In what point?
I have kept linked the 2ch thread that derides Korans with the derogatory words and you are “too sleepy to find it?”
Random poop flung from the kimchi gallery doesn’t deserve better
You seem to have misapprehended both the subject and the object of my comments. I was addressing WangKon and criticized his misrepresentation and avoidance of the arguments of the paper by Gavan Grey to which WangKon referred. The original post regarding Dezaki is of little interest to me, less in fact than the saga well-known to readers here of Gerry Bevers ,who not only was attacked by the moonbat nutizens of the kimichi patrol but actively persecuted by those ostensible guarantors of freedom of inquiry and expression, korean university officials.
The Obamanauts get another one wrong; what a surprise!
I was looking for “idiot Koreans” in your comment.
Gotta ask, how *is* the air and water quality down there in the putrid miasma of your little well of ressentiment?
That’s the best you can do? Come back when you have some material of your own.
I feel as if I’m watching “Menbung school.”
hope you end up with your windpipe slit open, and your skull smashed in
Why don’t you come over and see if you can make that happen.
hope you get murdered, cunt. hopefully by getting knifed to death
I’d gladly smash your head in with a nice baseball bat, until your cranium shatters, and your brains turn to pulp. Or better yet, I’d happily rip your stomach open with a chainsaw, and let your entrails fall out, and watch you die screaming in agony.
Now I have a first and last name – waenom yangnom!
Why don’t you come over and see if you can make that happen…
Just name the time and place. I’ll be your huckleberry.
catch syphilis and die please.
Bend over, boy
Really don’t want to hear about originality from someone who just basically went “I know you are, but what am I?”. And definitely don’t want to hear that from an old man yelling at two bots as well.
http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg612/scaled.php?tn=0&server=612&filename=8bvbb.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640
huh? Then just stop reading. BTW, I know who’s behind the bot; that’s what makes it fun.
Okay I admit it…I’m the bot. Meet me next Sunday at noon, in front of Admiral Yi Sun-shin’s statue at Gwanghwamun.
OK, are you ready to rumble? LOL
Haven’t you noticed that the “fe295299529″ guy appear whenever debate flows against Japanese revisionists? I guess it is an intentional attempt to obscure the debate while making Koreans look bad.
Do you know the identity of the guy on the grassy knoll, too? ROTFLMAO
And you’re here to counter things? Fair and balanced, just like Fox News!
I don’t see anyone here mentioning that ‘baka’ is fool in Japanese. ‘Bakayaro’ is something like dumbass.
Wow. That’s a bit much. Don’t you think that for posting a disagreeable comment on a message board that limb dismemberment, maybe two, would be proportional and more appropriate?
You see, this one’s ok: windpipe slit open, skull smashed… with today’s medical technology, that’s survivable. Your reply below goes too far.
See this one goes too far. Smashed brains, shattered cranium, entrails ripped out by a chainsaw, dying in screaming agony. It’s not proportionate.
You know that’s robot spam, right?
I wonder who is posting using my “name.” What can I do? I hope you can recognize them from the tone.
My bad then. I read the feud among posters whose names I recognized. I did wonder, however, why the mods had not stepped in.
What “feud? I was just playing my corner.
I will try partial translation of Wiki’s. The first one is:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/コンパクトカメラ#.E5.91.BC.E7.A7.B0.E3.81.AB.E3.81.A4.E3.81.84.E3.81.A6
Three probable origins of Bakachon camera:
(1) Translation of “foolproof”: Camera for all types of fools (baka=fool, chon=sound of tree clapping, indicating an unimportant person)
What “feud? I was just playing my corner.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1352768229_darrelle-revis-03.jpg
(3) Full-automatic camera which allows any fool (baka) to take pictures by just pressing (chon) the shutter button
This is the viewpoint which I have been explaining.
Whichever the viewpoint, the Bakachon camera was nothing derogatory to Koreans.
(4) What was the trouble? (This handles the other Wiki, and the number was given just for convenience.)
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/バカチョン
Hazama Kampei (fn+pn), a commedian and TV personality, stated in a live TV variety show; “I have been using only Bakachon cameras for a very long time because I have very little knowledge of cameras.”
A person from the “Buraku” Liberation League telephoned the TV station and protested saying “Chon is a derogatory term on Zainich Koreans and bakachon is a one-sided derogatory term of Japanese on them indicative of their race with very little knowledge.”
The host of the show apologized in the show on the phone of protest. Hazama Kampei also apologized with good grace saying “Let me apologize for myself because I am the person who used the word. I am sorry.”
Viewers’ responses were relatively favorable, but since then, all media tended not to use the word all the more in their programs and publications.
Voila
at first, there is no education in moral caass in my prefecture about buraku people. we were not taught in school. so we did not know about them. people are silent about that. that is why we did not discriminate because we did not know about them and people are forgetting this problem as a far past.
in Kansai erea there is a education. people well know it. and buraku people use propagandas as human right. they got advantage for job and living expense,they insist “we are discriminated” …so we had knew such problem because they insist..
anyway I found a things that we dont to need to know or discuss..
Ah yes, “Korea is changing”™. I’ve been hearing that one for as long as I can remember and always as if this country had some unique capacity in that regard.
(2) Transliteration of “Vacation camera” or one just written as heard (or mistakenly heard)
Can you imagine that “vacation” can be somehow transliterated into “bakachon” through that pronounced or heard by a Japanese (or Korean)?
Example:
http://www.technobuffalo.com/2011/06/02/your-ultimate-outdoor-vacation-camera-picks/
(4) Translation of another Wiki (How the trouble started)
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/バカチョン
During a live TV variety show, Hazama Kampei (fn+pn), a comedian and TV personality, stated “I have been using only Bakachon cameras for a very long time because I am least knowledgeable about cameras.”
Then, a person from the Buraku Liberation League phoned the TV station protesting “Chon is a derogatory term for Zainichi Koreans and it is a one-sided term of Japanese racial discrimination of Zainichi Koreans with least practical knowledge.”
The manager of the show apologized on the matter at the phone of protest, and Hazama Kampei also apologized with good grace saying “Let me apologize because I am the person who used that word. I am sorry about that.”
Reactions of viewers were relatively favorable. But individual TV and newspaper companies started since then to apply stricter restrictions on the use of the word.
the transliteration of vacation would be バケーション, right? so it would be ba-ke-chon camera. but this phrase is often written with the kanji for stupid: 馬鹿, hence baka. a word or phrase’s meaning is usually derived from the commonly accepted usage of the word or phrase. all you’ve offered so far are convoluted explanations and mostly irrelevant anecdotes about what happened once on a Japanese tv show. besides, the source of the controversy in that instance was the commonly understood meaning of the phrase バカチョンカメラ。the entertainer even used it in the “stupid” sense, as in he’s too inept. the etymology you are proposing – “vacation [camera sound] camera” – is dubious and bizarre.
Mr. providence would say they were not derogatory, but Japanese found them offensive so later prohibited in official language. “jjokbari” means “cloven foot” and “waenom” literally means “little people.”
I think for pressing buttons this would usually be written gacha-gacha, kasha kasha, or pon pon pon. “Chon” would be a rare way of writing this.
In Mr. providence style interpretation, “baka”(馬鹿) could not even be a derogatory term, because it literally means “horse and deer,” not an “idiot.” Four words Chinese 指鹿爲馬(indicate a deer and call it a horse) unjustly made it carry the meaning of “idiot.”
Sorry for some confusion in translated installments. (1), (2) and (3) describe possible origins of word “bakachon.” (4) is the episode which triggered controversies on word “bakachon.”
Whichever the origin of bakachon might be, the word “bakachon camera” had been used in Japan for many years without any derogatory connotation againt Koreans until the day of the episode depicted in (4).
I believe your wife can eventually understand this by reading the two Wiki entries, and I am dependent on it. To explain what she learned to you in English is another story. I am rather getting pessimistic on that matter because I cannot depend on her for things I can’t do myself.
I’m not a master of the Japanese language but I can read and write it somewhat. I studied it in college. I saw the Wikipedia article in Japanese and it’s one of those without good sources to back it up. I was asking my wife for confirmation since she is a native speaker and would be more aware than I am of its colloquial usage and meaning. Even if what you are saying is true – and the origin is not derogatory – does it matter considering the widespread belief in Japan that it refers to “baka chosenjin”? The use of chon in compound slang phrases is not unheard of in Japan. I even had a female Japanese friend who used the phrase チョン高 to jokingly refer to a high school whose pupils are Zainichi Koreans. It’s not far-fetched to think that the use of chon could be extended to cameras or anything else involving Koreans.
Your experiences of any sort with Zainichi Koreans appear much thicker than those of mine. Mine is virtually none. According to Wiki, there is only one チョン高 on the north of Tokyo in Japan. That is one in Sapporo, Hokkaido. I have not met any Japanese who would call Zainichis or Koreans as “chon” in my life.
The episode of the bakachon camera occurred at Kansai TV in Osaka where, as I hear, more Zainichis are concentrated. It is interesting to note that the protest itself was made not by Zainichis but by a person of Japanese buraku organization which is alleged to be almighty and making big business appealing always as sufferers of discrimination.
Your thinking appear otherway around to me. “It’s not far-fetched to think that the use of chon could have been extended from cameras and to something else involving Koreans.”
stfu cretn
Just get to the point. If a Korean-American English teacher gives a lecture about racism and discrimination in Korea, he would be mobbed by angry netizens? Is this what you are saying? I find it unrealistic. Why would such a miniscule thing draw any attention when there is the whole multi-culti campaign carried out by the Korean government and media, which essentially involves raising awareness about such matters?
>it’s a fact that japan occupied korea.
Do not rewrite Korean history, please. “Occupation” is a term defined by Hague convention of war on land, and only military body can occupy a city or a country. Korea merged with Japan through a treaty, and therefore it was not an occupation. Further more, Korea was governed by a civil regime, not by a military regime, during the merger period. If Koreans had taken arms to prevent the merger with Japan, and there had been a war between the two countries, Japan might have occupied Korea. But there was no war and there was no occupation.
If you want to see a real occupation, look at Japan just after WW2.
I really hate ever lasting wrong efforts by Koreans to rewrite history.
What “feud? I was just playing my corner.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/1352768229_darrelle-revis-03.jpg
I have replied to your comments with link to 2ch threads many times and you said you are “too sleepy to find it.” For sleepy man, here is wikipedia that describes about the 2ch board:
The experiences I’m talking about are not with Zainichi Koreans. As far as I know, these people are simply Japanese, my wife included. The girl who said chonko is not ethnically Korean. And my wife is not ethnically Korean either, unless she’s hiding something from me. In fact, she often makes jokes about Koreans to me, and I don’t care. I don’t take it seriously.
Well folks, there you have it. No further discussion is necessary on Japanese revisionist history if this is what even some Japanese believe.
There are a lot of words which were wrongly connected to Korea because of Korean lies.
“Kudaranai” came from Korean “Keun Nara” or “Baek che”, which was disproven because “kudaranai” came into usage centuries after the end of Baek che.
“Nara” prefecture came from Korean “nara”. However, it most likely came from Japanese “narasu” meaning flat.
“Wasshoi” which is a shout made by a person who is trying to lift something heavy came from Korean “wasseo” meaning “came”, but unlikely.
“Hana” meaning “beginning” came from Korean “hana” meaning “one”. However, since Japanese “hana” also means pointy end of a stick, it is unlikely.
“Yakiniku”, BBQ came from Korea. However, there were “Yakiniku” in Japan before Korean immigrants came to Japan.
Japanese are now quite fed up with all those lies made by Koreans.
No one in Japan knows the exact origin of “bakachon”. But the word is used only for camra. There is no bakachon washing machine, or bakachon rice cocker. So, I think chon in bakachon meaning a Korean is unlikely.
It is clearly proven Koreans are rewriting history. I am not a revisionist, nor a right wing, but you are.
If you think otherwise, prove Japan “occupied” Korea, as defined by international laws.
stereo, if you can convert your mental gymnastics skills into a physical one, you’d be the greatest Olympic athlete in Japan’s history, past/present/future. Start working on it, buddy.
You must sometimes be old enough to judge social affairs in some accuracy. Assuming that Kampei’s episode occurred in 1985, I rather wish someone at least in their early 50s to discuss the matter. I cannot still identify the date of the episode.
As for the expression “バカでもチョンでも (baka demo chon demo),” on the other hand, I can find it in dictionaries at hand. I could find the expression in a dictionary printed and published in 1981.
The expression is explained also in another dictionary at hand first printed in 1951 but reprinted, with re-editing, in 1984. A good thing about this dictionary is that it gives an example of publication containing the expression. It says the expression appeared in the form of “バカだの、チョンだの、ノロマだの (baka dano, chon dano, noroma dano),” in 西洋道中膝栗毛 (Seiyo Dochu Hizakurige) published during 1870 to 1876. Assuming chon is Koreans, I wonder who noroma could be.
The second dictionary is 広辞苑 (Kojien) published by 岩波書店 (Iwanami Shoten) (Find through ちょん).
fair enough I see your point, I just thought ChuckRamone’s Japanese reference was a better way to go about it. Your point above about the origins of the word was well put.
I’ve never denied that some Japanese address Koreans as chon. I have a mixed feeling for people with that name, but I suspect that Kim, Pak, Lee were too obvious or ambiguous as a slang word.
I just tried to locate bakachon (バカチョン) in dictionaries at hand, but it was in vain. The dictionary 広辞苑 (Kojien) was first published in 1955. Sorry for making a correction here.
Wondering what kind of reactions you are expecting of me.
This is what an online Japanese dictionary say about the word “chon”.
1. an end, 2. termination of employment, 3. a dot or a period, 4. a fool.
Usage as a fool can be found in novel serries “Seiyo Dochu Hizakurige” published from 1870 through 1876 in the form “baka demo chon demo”. The dictionary does not show the etymology of chon used as a fool. But I think it unlikely that chon came from “chosenjin” (Korean), because the interaction between Japan and Korea was very limited, if any, in eraly 1870s. It is more likely that “chon in bakachon means Korean” is urban legend.
Japanese Wikipedia, citing a newspaper article, explains the etymology of “chon” as follows.
“Chon” meaning a fool was already in use during Edo period (1603-1868). In those days, the name and title of an important person was fully recorded on paper but that of a less important person was replaced by a dot. So, “chon” meaning a dot came to mean a person who is so unimportant as not to be recorded on paper. And then “chon” came to mean a fool. “Chon” in this meaning has nothing to do with Koreans.
Mr. providence’s style interpretation should find no problem in this Soft Bank commercial, given that you fantasized Mr. Son insulted Japanese with the dog allegedly “giving birth to Japanese.”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pa7vPn5ovI
I’d like to believe that you are also good at something other than googling. You must understand from my comment above, addressed to Mr. Ramone, that the combination of “baka” and “chon” has been used in Japan for at least more than a few hundred years. Why can it have any connection to Koreans? The very protest made by the buraku people had turned the word bakachon to a swearword. Understood? I think it is a significant loss for Japanese writers and readers.
The YouTube video has been blocked for audience from Japan, but I can easily guess what it would be.
I don’t know whether Mr. Son grew up among Korean friends or Japanese friends. If he grew up among Japanese friends, he did not know that “You, son of a dog!” is the best swearword for Koreans for separating with friends. He knows the swearword now. That is why it has been blocked for Japanese audience. He is a Japanese already, not like the Lotte people.
Okay, now I understand that you would not be offended by the word “jjokbari,” because it originally means “cloven foot,” not related with Japanese.
Of course I am not offended if everyone can understand that you are not using the word as a swearword. You can even eat it. It must be one of your favorites.
Do you not think the use of “bakachon” and “chon” at the following 2ch threads not swearword?
http://anago.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/streaming/1354942841/l50
Are you going to say you are “too sleepy” again?
Yes, they are using them as swearwords. As I said before, I’ve never intentionally visited there. You can visit there and use every swearword you know to your heart’s content, although I can assure you that you will never win a debate there.
I am sleepy of course. Are not you living according to the Japan Standard Time?
How do you know that when you said you have never visited 2ch?
Because I hear that many of them are very intelligent while I am not.
By the way, have you understood that bakachon was nothing derogatory in its original meaning? If you have, you can understand that Mr. Dezaki and many other writers and scholars you introduced are silly people. You’ll never want to listen to them or attend their classes.
2 channel commenters who impose death threats to Koreans are intelligent? You might compliment the “fe123232312″ guy who says similar death threats intelligent.
They are just using such words. They are just like performing Korean activists. Have they killed any Japanese? Demonstrators in Shin-Okubo are also the same. They are just shouting dirty words. If they meant it, their targets were quite near at hand. They are all good at heart.
I did not pay much attention to the robo thing because I had much trouble in posting, but I felt that the messages were rather similar to that of anti-American lyrics of a horse riding singer. They did not seem to belong to Japanese culture.
The 2 ch netouyo seem to be related with hikikomori phenomenon, which the “fe295299529″ guy reminded me of.
There is no legitimate dispute about the etymology of baka-chon. You are digging a needlessly and embarrassingly deep hole for yourself here.
Stop digging. You sound like a North Korean diplomat trying to tell us that up is down and down is up, or a garden-variety PRC nationalist troll.
In the old days “nom” was not too derogatory back in the olden days probably because most of the population were sangnoms.
DC Musicfreak, you are the troll.
“Chon” meaning a fool can be found in Japanese literature in Edo period (1603-1868) when Japan had almost no relationship with Korea. How can its etymology be Chosenjin (Korean)?
“Chon in bakachon means Korean” is an urban legend, desperately spread by Koreans. Do you see the same pattern here? Koreans make up a story to poison the relationship with Japan.
I don’t really know such people. I don’t think that there are as many as 100,000 of them in Japan. Even with that number, they amount to less than 0.1 percent of Japanese population, and they cannot have any influence on Japanese politics.
NTT is the largest telecommunications company. Lotte Korea and Lotte Japan are two different companies and It’s well-known that Lotte Korea shamelessly copied Glico’s “Pocky” and released it in South Korea as “Pepero”. http://www.japanprobe.com/2011/12/10/korean-copies-of-japanese-products/
I’m interested to know how “It was Japanese who invented Chinese characters! – Fabricated 4,000 years Chinese history.” I hope Japan Probe could post about the topic.
I am sorry to say, but I am feeling that it has been a good digging, and hoping that some of you get a second thought on it. Not to change the subject but I have just come across with an example of Koreans turning their big lies to your truths.
Have you ever eaten ramen? I think you have at a variety of occasions on varieties of reasons. Ramen was developed in Japan, and the major figure in its development is Momofuku Ando, a Taiwanese descent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles
Choson Ilbo has recently given an article on Korean ramens as told by P. J. Rogers:
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/02/08/2013020801507.html
He was quoted in the article as saying “The ramen is the best food among those ever developed by Koreans during the 20th century…” When such articles continue to appear in many scenes of your life, the ramen will become an ethnic delicacy of Korea in 30 or 50 years unless the Wiki article continues to exist.
After the Sprint merger, Softbank will be the largest telecom company in Japan. It won’t have the largest Japanese market share, that is true, but it will be Japan’s largest telecom company by global sales.
Lotte in Japan was started by Zanichi Koreans and is the largest confectionary company in Japan: http://www.ats-sea.agr.gc.ca/asi/pdf/6152-eng.pdf
Everything else you said is just a red herring.
The article is now in limbo:
http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/ejcjs/vol12/iss3/gray.html
That is hilarious q.
Interesting…
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2013/02/12/2003554771
And not from Koreans.
What’s interesting about it is the apparent difference in emphasis between Taiwan and Korea, the article referring to the way in which the Taiwanese women have (had) been able to get on with their lives and are “no longer victims of the atrocities of the past” , while in Korea the comfort women have been exploited as fuel for an ongoing ethno-nationalist orgasm of politico-cultural resentment by a country that hasn’t provided for them in any meaningful way. I hope I can get a chance to see the film better to understand the difference in Taiwanese and Korean attitudes.
Hummm…. that’s not what I got. Sure we both read the same article?
The article also said:
and…
I would like to see the documentary too.
I don’t think either of those highlighted passages are incompatible with the clear implication of the article that Taiwan has not simply continued the exploitation of its comfort women for political purposes, as Korea has
That part is true. I do think that both Korea and China do bring up historical grievances with Japan to whip up their respective constituencies when they need to. That, in turn, makes solving the issues harder with the Japanese. That being said, I don’t believe that the Japanese are making anything easier on themselves either.
However, I do not believe what some Korean and Chinese politicians do for the sake of “whipping up” the masses does not diminish the immorality of what the Japanese actually during the Showa era (to many Koreans and Chinese civilians AND practially all American, British and Australian POWs), from a historical perspective.
you’ll be doing korea a favor.
NE555
You must log in to post a comment.