≡ Menu

So much for togetherness

Suffice it to say, the Hankyoreh is not happy with Park’s selection of Munhwa Ilbo columnist Yoon Chang-jung as her chief spokesman. Yoon’s is not the intuitive choice for the face of an administration advocating harmony and togetherness—he referred to the mourners at late President Roh’s funeral as “Yellow Guards,” frequently refers to the opposition—and the 386 generation in general—as pro-North Korean, and seems to think the LMB administration wasn’t hard-line enough.

UPDATE: More about the opposition’s calls for Yoon’s resignation here.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    So speaking the truth disqualifies him?

  • bumfromkorea

    At the point when you start sounding like someone commenting on anncoulter.com, you gotta stop and really reflect on whether you aren’t horrendously skewed towards one extreme of politics.  

    Or, you know, maybe I’m just a filthy communist/Nork sympathizer like everyone who doesn’t like PGH.  Either way.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Its not about PGH. Its about the progs in this country, their Messiah Roh and the years of placating and sucking up to the North. The track record is there for all to see.

  • Cm

    I see nothing wrong with this choice, it’s a very sensible decision for a man who just spoke the truth.  I just have to shrug. 

  • YangachiBastardo

    I agree with both cm and salaryman and i can’t  help quoting, on this subject, the words of Nancy Pelosi:” …And yes we won the elections”.

    PS

    I think many people around the world are not necessarily conservative, but vote for the  local centre-right coalition, ‘cos they’re completely turned off by people like Roh or their equivalents worldwide.

  • Jakgani

    Good for her – following in her fathers steps…

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Better her father than Roh and the gang.

  • bumfromkorea

    Wow, dude.  A murdering, torturing dictator who rewrote the Constitution to make himself the King is better than Roh and the gang?  Really?  Who do you think you are, the State Department in the 70s & 80s?  

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Just imagine Roh got his wish: How do you think life under Park would compare to life under Kim Jr. and Kim Jr. Jr.?

  • bumfromkorea

    Do you really think that Roh’s wish was for South Korea to live under North Korea’s rule?  Is that what you really think, or is this just another “innocent hyperbole”?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    1. Yes, I truly believe that Roh wished for reunification under the leadership of the DPRK.
    2. No, it is not “good hearted hyperbole.”

  • bumfromkorea

    Okay.  Then I just wasted the total of 5 minutes engaging you.  

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Obviously you are a prog and voted for, or would have voted for, Roh, Moon, Lee or any of the other prog scum. The way Roh slithered around the feet of Kim Jr at the summit, the way he deferred to him, his refusal to bring up the nuclear issue, his express support for NK’s right to have nukes, his willingness to totally give up and retreat on the issue of the NLL, and his goal to destroy the US-ROK allience are just some things pointing me to my conclusion about Roh.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Salman, you’re need to be the M’Hole’s Ann Coulter saps you of any credibility your points might have if you only scaled back your extremism a bit.  Are you a chain smoking, whiskey swigging, one time hot chick?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    *your* not *you’re.* Thanks. I dont smoke, I dont drink. I cycle and swim long distances and hit the gym 7 days a week.
    Am I being extreme in saying Roh appeased the North, put the security of his country in jeopardy by actively undermining the allience with the US? Is that extreme or is it simply the way it was? Am I the ONLY one claiming this?

  • SalarymaninSeoul
  • Anonymous_Joe

    So your’re your you’re a one time hot chick then?

    Yes, you are the only one claiming “better her father than life under Roh and the gang.”

  • bumfromkorea

    Obviously you are a prog and voted for, or would have voted for, Roh, Moon, Lee or any of the other prog scum.

    I would have rather voted for Moon, possibly Ahn (though he wasn’t really convincing me).  My father, who has 2 friends whose legs got broken by the Great Half-God Leader Park for walking by a protest, actually made the trip to Los Angeles (Koreans in Phoenix area had to do that) just to vote for NOT-PGH.  And I love how you just threw in Lee there, like progressives are a bunch of mindless fucking zombies- oh wait, so you are exactly like those morons at the donga/chosun.com comment sections chanting “종북좀비” like (and here’s the kicker) a bunch of zombies.

    Roh appeased the North, put the security of his country in jeopardy by actively undermining the allience with the US?

    I truly believe that Roh wished for reunification under the leadership of the DPRK.

    Hardly the same sentiment.  No one argues with the former, but almost everyone will think you’re fucking nuts for thinking the latter.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    The funny thing is that like mindless zombies, the progs pretty much in unison put the sins of the father on the daughter, as if PGH was eresponsible for what her father did. I wouldn’t claim to support her father, hell, Ive expressed my hatred of the State under any form, be that a dictatrorship, a communist totalitarianism or even democracy. However as much as I despise organized nation-states, what I despise even more are those undermining the State to the effect of benefitting a totalitarian hellhole like North Korea. And Roh did just that. The question being, why? Why would he knowingly go about tearing down this country’s security and its most important allience, appeasing the North, stoing hatred of the US if it was not out of the motives I already claimed?

  • bumfromkorea

    the progs pretty much in unison put the sins of the father on the daughter, as if PGH was eresponsible for what her father did. 

    It is one thing to be PCH’s daughter.  It’s a whole other universe to defend the Yushin in public and refuse to condemn it until the poll numbers began to waver.  I actually thought PGH wouldn’t be too bad of a choice until she started saying all that bullshit beautifying her father’s legacy.

     I wouldn’t claim to support her father, hell, Ive expressed my hatred of the State under any form, be that a dictatrorship, a communist totalitarianism or even democracy. 

    Better her father than Roh and the gang.

    For someone who rightly despise NK, you sure are fond of doublethink.  And if you really hate the State under any form, get the fuck out of everyone’s country.  Go live in Antarctica – I believe there are many unclaimed lands there.

    The question being, why? Why would he knowingly go about tearing down this country’s security and its most important allience, appeasing the North, stoing hatred of the US if it was not out of the motives I already claimed?

    You’re starting- well, no, you’re continuing to sound like a conspiracy nutjob.  It blows my mind that you reach these conclusions, then proceed to think that you’re the rational one.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    The conclusion is pretty obvious. The entire Roh presidency was a process of appeasing North Korea, stoking hatred of the US, tearing up the foundations of ROK security and retreating from key stances such as the NLL. Who is the one who would benefit most from a weak ROK? Was Roh acting foolishly, in which case he was the dumbest SOB ever to hold office or did he have an agenda to undermine the country he was elected to defend? What is YOUR take on those disastrous years?

    I see no problem hating the state and recognizing that there are gradiations of evil. Anyone in the camp that placates and appeases the North is worse tha PCH at his worst. Which is not to say PCH was not bad. He was simply of a lighter shade of grey than Roh. While PCH broke some eggs, Roh wanted to see the whole hen house get squashed under a red boot. Many on the prog side still do.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    And what the hell is wrong with what PGH said about Yushin? She presented a balanced take on what her father did. In the original statement for which she got villified she apologized for those who suffered and expressed regret but also made the pretty obvious statement that were it not for her father the ROK today may have been a very different, and probably a much poorer country, and that the economic woes of that time did pose a serious security threat. If I am not mistaken, the North was a far richer country at that time and presened a far larger threat to the South than it does even today with its nukes. Yushin was not 100% bad, and stating that PCH is the father of the rich, modern day Korea is not something evil. Her subsequent apology was not a 180 degree u-turn but more of a clarification of her original statement.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Anyone in the camp that placates and appeases the North is worse than PCH at his worst.

    Oh, crap.  I have concern for the everyday citizens of North Korea.  I think that we should find a way to feed them.  I want to open discussion and hear ideas.  Does that make me worse than a murdering military dictator, Salman?  Apparently so, or you’re you are your overstatements make any reasonable opinions you try to discuss sound ridiculous (much like how an obvious typo discredits mine).

  • Yu Bum Suk

     But if the same people wanting that want the state to stop people sending socks to NK via balloons I seriously have to question their intentions and motives.

  • RElgin

     You have an impaired vision of what the political reality is like here.  Roh did not merely want to placate KJI but he wanted to engage his regime.  Considering the subterfuge and brazen callousness in both North and South Korean power structures, this is impossible. 

    The only thing worse than Roh’s ultimate foolishness is reading of your ignorance of the realities that surround you.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Am I being extreme in saying Roh appeased the North, put the security of his country in jeopardy by actively undermining the allience with the US? Is that extreme or is it simply the way it was?

    No, that doesn’t make you extreme. But claiming that Roh “wished for reunification under the leadership of the DPRK” does.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    And Roh did just that. The question being, why? Why would he knowingly go about tearing down this country’s security and its most important allience, appeasing the North, stoking hatred of the US if it was not out of the motives I already claimed?

    And next up, Salaryman explains how Jimmy Carter’s foreign policy is proof he really did wish for Americans to live under Soviet domination.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Which is not to say PCH was not bad. He was simply of a lighter shade of grey than Roh. While PCH broke some eggs, Roh wanted to see the whole hen house get squashed under a red boot.

    Everybody, together now: “Don’t bogart that joint, my friend. Pass it over to me…”

  • bumfromkorea

     Was Roh acting foolishly, in which case he was the dumbest SOB ever to hold office or did he have an agenda to undermine the country he was elected to defend?

    The former is far, far, FAR more likely than Roh being a fucking NK turncoat.  He is, at worst, a naive fool who obviously couldn’t handle the demands of the seat of presidency.  To claim that somehow he (and by your extension anyone who is not cool with PCH legacy) is a NK sympathizer who tried to hand the country over to the North is one of the most idiotic statement made in this blog’s comment section.  And that includes Mizar5 sucking his own cock, for fuck’s sake.

    Anyone in the camp that placates and appeases the North is worse than PCH at his worst.

    Horseshit.  What Anonymous_Joe said.

    Many on the prog side still do.

    Again, where in christ’s name is all that assurance of random fact-sounding bits coming from?

    And what the hell is wrong with what PGH said about Yushin?

    You mean the part where she said that she’s sorry for any inadvertent damages caused by industrialization (so PCH “inadvertently” kidnapped, tortured, and murdered people?)   Or the fact that what her father pulled in 5.16 was a justified revolution?  Again, I actually thought PGH wouldn’t be too bad – neither did my parents.  They actually felt sorry for her because she lost both her parents (regardless of who they were) at a pretty young age and how traumatic that would have been.  That all changed when she got up there and start spewing bullshit about how her father made the “difficult choice” to completely shit on the Constitution and democracy.  It is one thing to say “PCH made South Korea economically successful.”  It is a whole other dimension to say “…so don’t be too hard on him for that whole murdering/torturing dictatorship thing.”

    It is incredulous to me that between you, a self-proclaimed uber-libertarian, and me, an admitted statist, you’re the one who’s defending the man who have kidnapped, tortured, murdered, and did everything else that flies in the face of personal liberty.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    With Jimmy Catrer, you never know.

  • Cm

    “My father, who has 2 friends whose legs got broken by the Great Half-God Leader Park for walking by a protest,  ”

    Your father and his 2 friends got their legs broke because they protested violently with rocks, fire bombs, and home made weapons.  With the long history of violent Korean protest culture, it’s complete horse shit that they were all peaceful protests.  For supposedly a brutal deadly dictatorship that equate to North Korea, PCH didn’t kill your father and his gang with hail of bullets, and were let off far easy compared to the real totalitarian governments.  Violence begets violence, and emotional riot police can go also out of control in the face of out of control mob of protesters with deadly weapons.  Of course, two wrongs don’t make it right, but pretending 100%  innocence and victim hood is what you just said, complete horse shit.

     

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Except you are defending the guy who was far worse of a statist than PCH in his wildest dreams. Again, shades of grey.

    I think we are pretty much all in agreement that RMH set back the ROK’s security signifcantly and nearly ruined the alliance with the US. The only thing we are disagreeing about is his motivations.
    RElgin, you are a lawyer yet you fail to grasp the nuances of the words you use. To engage does not mean to one-sidedly bend over. what he did was to appease and continued to do so even when it became obvious the North was not going to respond in a positive manner. That is not engagement, it is de facto capitulation.

  • bumfromkorea

    “My father, who has 2 friends whose legs got broken by the Great Half-God Leader Park for walking by a protest/b>,  ”
    Your father and his 2 friends got their legs broke because
    they protested violently with rocks, fire bombs, and home made weapons.
    Either you’re calling my father a liar, or you need to go to a local community college and take English 101 again.

  • Cm

     “You mean the part where she said that she’s sorry for any inadvertent
    damages caused by industrialization (so PCH “inadvertently” kidnapped,
    tortured, and murdered people?)”

    Look kid, you have a whole generation of older Koreans who have resoundingly said the lack of liberties wasn’t that bad, and it was needed at that time to bring discipline to a nation that badly needed one.  The economic achievements came faster because of that.  You have a whole generation of people who lived through that and said their lives improved immensely.   How can you say they are wrong when they have actually lived through that, and yet you haven’t? Kid, you have no ideal what you’re talking about.  Just shut up about something you know nothing about.

  • bumfromkorea

    Except you are defending the guy who was far worse of a statist than PCH in his wildest dreams.

    Untrue on both the premise and the conclusion.

    I think we are pretty much all in agreement that RMH set back the ROK’s security signifcantly and nearly ruined the alliance with the US. 

    We are in complete disagreement as to the “gradation”, to borrow your words.

    아니, 상식적으로 총검으로 대통령자릴 빼앗고 지킨 사람하고 투표로 대통령자릴 받은 사람중, 후자가 더 statist라는게 말이 된다고 생각하는 겁니까?   

  • Cm

     No, I’m calling you a liar, spewing horseshit. 

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Correct on the premise and the conclusion. You are of course going to deny the reality of the left in this country but we can see right through you. 

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Just removed the extra spaces at the bottom of that comment.

  • bumfromkorea

    For every 70% of older Koreans who thought PCH was a great man, there are 30% of the same generation who rejected his legacy.  And my perspective (especially since I wasn’t “tainted” by the “communist” attempt to turn kids into NK sympathizers as I moved to the US when I was little) is purely informed by information untainted by both PCH’s propaganda in the 70s and the teacher’s union’s attempt to make US look like the enemy.  And I have heard plenty of horror stories told as hero’s tales from my grandfather who used to work at 서빙고 to know what I’m talking about.

    And I am not at all surprised that the majority consensus of the generation whose previous experience with democracy before PCH was Rhee and the brief 2nd Republic are not that bothered by the lack of liberties and the dictatorship. 

  • bumfromkorea

    I’m not a liar, and it’s really sad that the only way for you to deny what happened is to just outright question my integrity with absolutely no justification.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Look, I didn’t live under Park, but I know plenty of people who did. You know as well as I do that a lot of bad shit went down during the period, too. That “lack of liberties” and “discipline” was enforced with the billy club and gun. Even people who defend the man’s record will admit as much.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    If I may defend cm here, I can say from experience that women from the Daegu/Gyeongsangbuk-do region do funny things to a man.

  • Cm

     Let me do a little basic math for you.  70% > 30% = the majority of Koreans of that generation who thought PCH’s leadership was great.   If you liberal arts educated good for nothing do gooders can’t accept that little equation, I’m sorry I can’t help you, but you are looking at the facts. Those were different times, in a different Korea, and Korea needed a strong leadership.  We were at war, and in dire straights.  A general can’t run a war plan with democracy.  Korea wasn’t ready at that time. Civil liberties my ass.  Civil liberty to steal and roam around smuggling, and utter corruption and chaos.  The first thing PCH did when he got in power was he cleaned up the streets of all the filth and shipped them all off to get their hair cuts and the little hynies booted with some old fashioned military discipline.  That’s how Korea took itself by the boot straps, son. 

  • bumfromkorea

    Lol, I’ve been meaning to ask… is that a running joke between cm and you, or is cm really dating someone from Daegu? (Or both?)

  • Cm

     No, that’s not what does it to me.  It’s today’s young Korean spoiled brats with their long bleached hairs, make up lipsticks and hand bags, who can’t do 10 pushups without panting, whining like little girls that “we have no democracy”.  For god sakes, North Koreans laugh at today’s South Korean youth as weak kneed pansies who’ll go home to mommy’s laps at the first sign of trouble, complaining about lack of democracy. 

  • bumfromkorea

    I wonder what the opinion poll of North Korea in the 70′s about Kim Il Sung looks like.  It’s probably affected by things like state propaganda and state-controlled media.  I mean, I never lived there so I guess I don’t know what I’m talking about, but that’s just what my liberal arts educated brain thinks.

      A general can’t run a war plan with democracy.  Korea wasn’t ready at that time. Civil liberties my ass.  Civil liberty to steal and roam around smuggling, and utter corruption and chaos.  The first thing PCH did when he got in power was he cleaned up the streets of all the filth and shipped them all off to get their hair cuts and the little hynies booted with some old fashioned military discipline.  That’s how Korea took itself by the boot straps, son.

    Lol… now you’re just sounding like my grandpa.  The 서빙고 one, not the almost-executed by both North and South Korean troops during the Korean War one.  But I guess I’m lying about all that too, right?

  • Cm

     LOL, how well do you really think Roh Moo Hyun or Moon Jae In administrations could have done in 1961? They would have been eaten alive by their own incompetence,  if they were lucky that is.  And yes, my wife is from south eastern Korea as a matter of fact. Fine woman she is though, and proud of her too.

  • Cm

    “Look, I didn’t live under Park, but I know plenty of people who did. You
    know as well as I do that a lot of bad shit went down during the
    period, too. That “lack of liberties” and “discipline” was enforced with
    the billy club and gun. Even people who defend the man’s record will
    admit as much.”

    I’m not at all denying there were abuses of power. What I’m saying is that the benefits of the PCH administration far outweighed the bad.  I’m just sick of reading the historical revisionist garbage put out by the liberal arts educated lefty do gooders who have never experienced that generation claiming that Korea circa 1970 was equivalent to North Korea. Those claims are just fucking ludicrous and outrageous, it burns me up every time I read them.  It burns me up to read the story yesterday that half the Korean kids today don’t know anything about 1945 independence, and the Korean War. They don’t know what caused the Korean war, who were involved, why Korea fought, and who were the friends and enemies of South Korea.  What the fuck are these liberal arts do gooders  and disguised NK forces, called the KTU, teaching the kids these days?  This is “democracy”??
     
     

  • bumfromkorea

    This is in reply to what I wrote about your glaring omission of the kind of control PCH over the national psyche (the one that you and every other PCH apologists inadvertently admit every time a claim is made about how PCH “inspired” people to work hard?), as well as the fact that you called me a liar?  Which, by the way, was completely uncalled for.

    But sure, let’s engage in counterfactual history written by someone who is apparently channeling a fascist cab driver in 60′s London.  I mean, actual historians haven’t even figured that shit out yet, but why not when there’s nothing else to say?

  • bumfromkorea

    claiming that Korea circa 1970 was equivalent to North Korea

    I will give you my left testicle and $10,000 if you can find my comment saying that in this thread.  And none of your complaints about the whiny communist Korean youth applies to me, cm.  I still have my old elementary school diaries, and one of them starts with a book report called “철이는 살아있다”, where apparently 철이 flies the Korean flag before getting shot and killed by 북괴군.  I moved before KTU began their textbook changes.  In fact, when KTU became a legal force, I was in the hospital in Phoenix with a broken femur- oh, what’s the point.  I’m just lying about this as well anyway, right?  

  • RElgin

     So I’m a lawyer now?  Cheez that is really low . . .

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Sorry, Greek marble enthusiast. Same thing

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Let me do a little basic math for you.  70% > 30% = the majority of Koreans of that generation who thought PCH’s leadership was great.

    Aside from the difference in your original statement (“you have a whole generation of older Koreans who have resoundingly said the lack of liberties wasn’t that bad, and it was needed at that time to bring discipline to a nation that badly needed one”), your 70% > 30% math really doesn’t make sense.  If two families enjoy a few extra beans in the stew for each man that the military dictator murders, then I would not say that the tradeoff was equitable.  

    If you want to express your support for PCH, that’s fine, but you’re really on a losing argument when you write that 30% suffered grievously so that 70% could enjoy.

  • Cm

     30% “suffered grievously”? Any evidences to support this? Look, we’re not talking about death squads going around rounding up people for no good reason, shooting them, then mass burying them.  This ain’t no El Salvador.  PCH rule was authoritarian, not totalitarian.  As long as you got out of government’s hair (like organizing and protesting in universities), they pretty much left you alone, were offered opportunity to advance, and you were able to get ahead in society.

    Just in case you can’t tell the difference between the two ideals, here’s the definition (I know you’re not the only one who seems to be continuously confused about this).

    http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/22477/what-are-the-distinctions-between-authoritarian-totalitarian-and-dictator

    “Authoritarianism is a form of social
    organization characterized by
    submission to authority. It is opposed
    to individualism and democracy. In
    politics, an authoritarian government
    is one in which political power is
    concentrated in a leader or leaders,
    typically unelected by the people, who
    possess exclusive, unaccountable, and
    arbitrary power. Authoritarianism
    differs from totalitarianism in that
    social and economic institutions exist
    that are not under the government’s
    control.”

    “Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule)
    is a political system where the state,
    usually under the power of a single
    political person, faction, or class,
    recognizes no limits to its authority
    and strives to regulate every aspect
    of public and private life wherever
    feasible.Totalitarianism is
    usually characterized by the
    coincidence of authoritarianism (where
    ordinary citizens have less
    significant share in state
    decision-making) and ideology (a
    pervasive scheme of values promulgated
    by institutional means to direct most
    if not all aspects of public and of public and private life).”

  • bumfromkorea

    Well, I have to thank cm for giving me a chance to re-read my old school diary.  Here’s the kicker: Apparently when I was little, I was rooting for Lee Hoi Chang instead of Kim Dae Joong in the 15th presidential election.

  • http://twitter.com/joey89924 joey

    I just have to shrug.  
    74HC4052

  • RElgin

    I was reading the Dokdo Times and was highly amused by the following:

    But while Moon and the ultra-left UPP candidate Lee Jung-hee tried to
    demonstrate their North Korean credentials, Pyongyang dramatically voted
    its absentee ballot in South Korea’s election by firing a missile last
    week aimed at ensuring a Park victory,
    shocking those on the left. However, Moon and Lee had failed to
    understand that the election of a dictator’s daughter in the South would
    help legitimize the appointment of a dictator’s son in North Korean
    society, while providing an easier rhetorical narrative with domestic
    audiences. [Link to story: North Korea Asks Moon to Return Home After Election Defeat].

    Touché and somehow the reasoning seems weirdly coherent.

  • RElgin

     ㅎ ㅎ