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So I take it the classroom will be a homosexuality-free zone?

As we mentioned earlier, Seoul education chief-elect Moon Yong-lin wants to change the student human rights ordinance promulgated by Seoul Metropolitan Office of Education earlier this year.

As you can see from the photo used in the link, one of the beefs conservatives have had with the ordinance is that it includes provisions to protect the rights of homosexual students. In his televised debate with left-wing candidate Lee Su-ho—former head of the Korean Teachers and Education Workers Union—on Dec 6, Moon said about these provisions, “Schools need to teach that (homosexuality) mustn’t take place in schools; they mustn’t teach that you have the right (to be homosexual).”

Well, that’s frank.

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  • Ryan

    homosexuality mustn’t take place in schools… as in homosexual acts? I think i can get behind that (no pun intended). heterosexual acts musn’t take place in the classroom either. The classroom is not the place for sexual acts of any kind. No one has the right to commit sexual acts in the classroom. Could that be his intended meaning?

  • Mark B

     Agreed that students shouldn’t have sex at school. However, students definitely should know they have the right to be gay. Schools have the duty to be a safe space for all sorts of students.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Ryan, if your beneficent interpretation is what he meant, then does he support heterosexual acts in school?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    “Schools need to teach that (homosexuality) mustn’t take place in schools; they mustn’t teach that you have the right (to be homosexual).”

    Who filled in the last parenthesis? Without it, it reads “Schools need to teach that (homosexuality) mustn’t take place in schools; they mustn’t teach that you have the right.” The right to what? Based on context of the whole sentence I would say the right to engage in homosexual acts, not to being homosexual. And I agree with him: schools are places to LEARN not to engage in sexual acts of any kind. There is no such thing as a right to be gay, one is gay regardless of any such considerations as “rights.”

    Besides, what a great day in Korea, what with all the 5th columnists getting defeated. This guy defeated the former head of one of the most radical and violent pro Nork groups in the country.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Since most schools are single gender, that question is sort of irrelevant, isn’t it? Unless you mean between teachers and students, then I’m sure he doesn’t.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Here’s the original Korean, so draw your own conclusion.

    문용린 후보는 인권조례에 포함된 내용들도 문제삼았다. 문 후보는 “인권조례에는 동성애에 관한 내용도 포함돼 있다”고 말했다. 문 후보는 “학교는 학교에서 그런 일(동성애)이 벌어져선 안된다고 가르쳐야지 그런 권리도 있다고 가르쳐선 안된다”고 주장했다.

    And as for this:

    Based on context of the whole sentence I would say the right to engage in homosexual acts, not to being homosexual. And I agree with him: schools are places to LEARN not to engage in sexual acts of any kind. There is no such thing as a right to be gay, one is gay regardless of any such considerations as “rights.”

    Here’s some links to some of Moon’s interviews. Read ‘em, and tell me if you still think that’s what he’s saying:

    http://www.newdaily.co.kr/news/article.html?no=134273
    http://www.dailian.co.kr/news/news_view.htm?id=318823&sc=naver

  • Creo69

    His time would be better spent hitting the soju bottle and room salon. South Korea is already about a hundred years behind the rest of the world on most social issues… There is no need for further embarrassment.

  • catie

    I think it means more that gay kids would have to keep wuiet about it and that ostracizing them would be seen as okay.

  • DLBarch

    Wait, isn’t this the same guy who wants to bring back the S&M homo-eroticism of caning?

    Riiiiight, ’cause nothing says latent homosexuality than teachers smacking the backsides of pubescent and prepubescent students.

    DLB

  • Creo69

    In other words … roll it back to the status quo. I worked in a high school for two years in South Korea and had several gay students. Gay students want to study and not be harassed…that’s it. 

    Maybe this guy could work on the litter problem that was created by the counselors handing out condoms to boys like candy and them tossing them all over the campus. Personally, I think most Korean adults have a little too much sex on the brain which is a carry over from it being taboo in with their generation. 

    Young Koreans have grown up with it everywhere and it simply doesn’t give them that “dirty” pleasure that their elders seem to get from it.

  • will.i.aint

    Didn’t you mean to say “bare backsides?”

  • dogbertt

    No porn … no poofs ….

    What’s this country coming to?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Keep it simple. Promise to keep schools as free of aggression and bullying as possible, for ANY reason. The question of homosexuality is a nice prog talking point, but its a distraction. Schools should be aggression free zones where students study. Period. Stop pushing prog social agendas on kids who are already stressed out over having to take a test that could break their future. They are unnecessary in schools. The larger social conversation about this or that, be that gay rights or womenn’s issues, is something that the students can take part in without it being forced upon them by the schools. With such rabid leftists so prevalent in schools here, I would rather schools be places where social issues are NOT touched. Its pretty obvious to me that those who are most behind this ridiculous “human rights for students” crap are the progs in the schools who want to use their ability to keep students captive for 8 hours in a day to brainwash them into the prog worldview.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

     Stop pushing prog social agendas on kids who are already stressed out over having to take a test that could break their future. They are unnecessary in schools.

    Tell that to Moon:

     예를 든다면?
     학생인권조례는 ‘학생이 임신 출산이나 성 정체성으로 차별받지 아니한다’는 규정을 담고 있다.그런데 유초중고에서 ‘학생의 신분으로’ 임신이나 출산을 하는 것, 동성애를 하는 것을 옳지 않다고 가르치는 것이 먼저인가? 아니면 이런 경우 차별하지 말아야 한다는 것을 가르치는 것이 먼저인가?당연히 옳지 않다는 것을 가르치는 것이 먼저다. 
    그런데 전교조는 거꾸로 차별금지부터 가르치라고 한다.이것은 학교에서 동성애를 하는 학생을 교사가 보더라도 지도하지 말라는 말이나 다름없다. 교육적 발상에선 나올 수 없는 내용이 인권조례에 들어가 있는 것이다.

    http://www.newdaily.co.kr/news/article.html?no=134273

  • Yu Bum Suk

    I think the “pretend it doesn’t exist” attitude is not all that unhealthy. I would imagine that most gay schoolchildren here would want to stay in the closet, even if their style is very tom-boyish or effeminate. I have some students who would be assumed to be lesbians in the west, but here it’s not an issue for them, whether they are or aren’t.
     

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Thats a good point, and if you look at the younger guys, the teens and 20s, it really is hard not to make the assumption that many, if not most, are gay.

  • Creo69

    I don’t agree. I am not saying gay kids here want to make an issue of their sexuality. But, no gay person wants to stay closeted…this is not a neutral activity and requires a lot of energy that could be used on something constructive. What they want is to live in a society where they do not have to feel they will be physically harmed if their sexual orientation would become know for some reason.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    No one wants to live in a society where they would be harmed,this does not particularly make homosexual people unique. However, it is not the role of the government to make me like everyone, but only to prevent me from harming them. Its not the role of the school to push a social agenda, it is merely to provide a safe learning environment.

  • Yu Bum Suk

     “But, no gay person wants to stay closeted”

    Actually I think that most gay Korean high schoolers would, at least off-line.

  • Creo69

    The school isn’t pushing any agenda or forcing anyone to like anyone. They are simply creating a clear policy that the bullying of students will not be permitted for any reason. Why do they need to include sexual orientation specifically? Unfortunately, because many societies teach people that gay people are an “exception” to the rule and if it is not spelled out clearly to these thick headed bigots they go on with their business and those in power often overlook, attempt to cover up or defend their actions.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Korea just elected a woman President who is quite possibly lesbian. “A hundred years”?

  • Creo69

    Why do school districts need to tell students exactly what they can and cannot wear and go into detail on grooming? Why can’t they just say “dress and groom appropriately?” Some people are f*^@#!^1 stupid…that’s why.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Great. Stick with “for any reason” and leave the gay issue out of it. This creation of abstract groupings is collectivist-speak. No individual should aggress against another individual. Problem solved. The alternative is the creation of countless “oppressed” groups with unique rights and privileges and agendas.

  • Creo69

    Like I said before, she could accomplish absolutely nothing in her term and have a greater impact on South Korea than any Korean leader in centuries … for several reasons. Woman…no kids…yadda, yadda…

  • Creo69

    For what reason? Do straight people in Korea want to be in the closet? Of course not, they don’t even have to consider it because there is no shame or threat of violence attached to their sexuality. Young gay Koreans don’t WANT to be in the closet. They WANT to live in a country where they will not suffer repercussions for their sexuality. They are forced into the closet…it is not some grand desire they possess.

  • Creo69

    And, as I have already pointed out.That clearly does not work for the reasons mentioned above…basically…bigots thinking the rules don’t apply to certain people. 

    Being able to attend school without being bullied is not a “unique” right. Though for gay students it is often not a “right” at all.

  • Creo69

    If the problem were only the students, your way may be fine. The problem is that the teachers and administrators are frequently the greatest perpetrators of violence against gay students through their inaction when school violence involves a gay student. These inclusions are as much about making sure people in power can be held accountable for their actions as they are for making sure perpetrators of bullying are held accountable for theirs.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Youre creating abstract groups, Creo. Think about individuals and treat everyine as an individual.

  • Creo69

    Couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately, life isn’t all sweet and neat like you are trying to paint it, and if it were, we wouldn’t have groups of people who are disproportionately victims of violence and wouldn’t have words like “n#gger,” “f@g,” “etc,” “etc” in our languages….would we?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Well gee, you don’t say: people in authority failing in their capacity as authority figures?! what a shock! I think you may be seeing the light. But again, I don’t see where the problem is in seeing people as individuals against whom no one should aggerss. Why the need to create dozens of special groups?

  • Creo69

    Why? Because if there is a disproportionate number of acts of violence against people who have a certain characteristic (for lack of a better word) a society needs to be aware of it and increase the efforts to deal with it. You don’t have to “like” anyone but you do have to refrain from acts of violence against them and it is in the best interest of any civilized society to take the measures (including identifying the full cause of the violence) to correct the situation. 

    If you know someone people are being targeted for being gay, more so than other reasons, you can focus your resources on that issue…not the issue of making people “like” gay people…but making the thick headed bastards conscious of the fact that you cannot enact violence against them and if you do you will be punished. Don’t you think it is more humane to identify stupid people and prevent them from acting on their stupidity rather than letting them pay the consequences for their stupidity which a little bit of additional education could have prevented?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    More abstractions and paper creations: groups, SOCIETY. How exactly is society supposed to be aware of anything if society is merely an abstract and rather arbitrary grouping of people? When we start thinking in these collectivistic ways we tend to see things that aren’t there, ghosts, like society and groups of people and then these problems begin.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    “Don’t you think it is more humane to identify stupid people and prevent them from acting on their stupidity rather than letting them pay the consequences for their stupidity which a little bit of additional education could have prevented?”

    I think the latter is far more dangerous and smacks of what totalitarian states call ‘re-education.’ I reject the idea that the government should be shaping thought. It should set rules and punish offenders, but should in no way be re-educating people. Thought crime is already something on the books in most western countries.

  • Creo69

    I guess this is your attempt to marginalize gay people…hardly ghosts…they exist as clear as day in any society in the world.

  • Creo69

    Yes…I know…you are the ever so smart guy who is always calling for freedom from government and wants your tax dollars utilized with absolute efficiency  SIR!. You make it sound so “evilll” which is cute.

    Sure…we should get rid of all the evil anti drunk driving…anti domestic abuse…anti vandalism….ANTI CRIME… education (re-education propaganda). A world of the uneducated would be bliss…of course, for someone who constantly whines about government spending you might want to do a little research on the cost of education as opposed to punishment. Always wanting to eat your cake too…precious.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    You misunderstand. I call anything a ghost that exists only as a concept. So “gay people” is a ghost, “society” is a ghost. These are concepts that are not real, they are abstractions. Society cannot know anything, cannot be taught, because society does not exist. People exist. People trapped within a world of ghosts that fill their heads: they have allegiances to immaginary groups, they hate other imaginary groups and you get all sorts of crimes and hatred in that way especially when you can malign a particular imaginary group.

    As far as educatuion goes, I am all for it, but not from government. I believe government is the worst and the most dangerous teacher especially when it comes to teaching a certain morality. Governments want one thing only: control. And what better way to get control than by getting at people when they are young and impressionable

  • Yu Bum Suk

     A society simply cannot go from having a general consensus that homosexuality is wrong to accepting it in such a short period of time just because a couple of liberal school officials wish so. Try to urge kids out of the closet so quickly is simply a bad idea at this point.

  • Creo69

    Korean society will change ONLY when gay Koreans start to come out of the closet in numbers. Period. 

    And, no liberal school official has asked Koreans to accept homosexuality. They simply made it clear you cannot harass or assault someone for being gay or perceived as gay … basics of a civilized society.

  • Creo69

    Done here… you know, when you give up you should just learn to say you are done. You always end up drifting off into some smoke screen nonsense that just makes anything you have said up till that point irrelevant. Have fun with your ghosts and goblins and “societies that do not exist.”

    Be sure to write us soon from “Candyland!” 

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    You misunderstand the basic point: stop factionalizing things. Stop grouping people into opposed camps, stop giving certain intetrests privileges and most fundamentally start treating everyone as an individual. It should be a transgression of the rules within any school to aggress against any other individual, not because he belongs to a protected group but because he is an individual.

  • Jakgani

    It was up to just 2 years ago – that for any adult to even mention the word “gay” to a child under the age of 19 – was a criminal offence under the Youth protection act.

    That law changed approx 2 years ago.

    Then they started making “gay” dramas and shows on TV – of course all the kids watched the dramas/shows and somehow mistakenly came to believe that the word “gaybar” means a person who is “gay”.

    Enter a school these days in 2012 – and you will hear students shouting at each other “Gaybar” – if they think another student is acting to friendly towards students of the same gender.

    (They don’t know that Gay Bar means a place where gay people go to chat and drink – somehow the Korean dramas messed up)

    So now in 2012 – its fine and very common for students to chat about “gay people” in the classrooms – even elementary school classrooms.

    Seoul education chief-elect Moon Yong-lin seems to be saying that no persons of the same gender should be allowed to hold hands, kiss etc etc in a school.

    Thats going to be hard to wipe out in Korea – because Korea has a history and culture of same gendered people being “touchy”

    If he means homosexual sex in the classroom – then – dah! of course – no sex should be allowed in the schools – the same as how smoking and drinking was wiped out of schools in 2005 (teachers were smoking in school bathrooms and carparks until 2005) and still do in many middle and high school bathrooms, empty rooms and rooftops in schools around the country.

    I remember a few years ago the two middle/high school boys who were caught by a teacher kissing each other in an empty classroom who were kicked out of school for it – and yet in the same year – five middle school boys had been gang-raping a female student in a classroom and received light punishment – such as having to read “sex education books for one week”.

    and at the same time (this is a few years ago) the middle school and grade 6 students who were molesting, raping etc etc younger students in the bathrooms and at an empty apartment next door to the school – they also received very light punishment such as having to read “sex education books for one week”.

    so the whole thing sounds unfair to me - Seoul education chief-elect Moon Yong-lin is saying that any person of the same gender should not be allowed to hold hands, kiss etc etc in a school – whilst he knows full well that people of different genders have been molested, raped etc in the same schools for years and given extremely light punishments when caught.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    Teachers are still drinking and smoking in schools in 2012. Change doesn’t happen very quickly here.

  • pawikirogii 석아

    ‘Thats a good point, and if you look at the younger guys, the teens and 20s, it really is hard not to make the assumption that many, if not most, are gay.’ salaryjerkinkorea

    this says more about you than anybody else, sir. i often say you expats have such problems in korea because many of you walk around the place despising half the population. you’re a good example of that, sir.  

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    What am I supposed to think when I see poofy haircuts, pink shirts and Louis Vuitton handbags on guys? Its my fault that these are all often found on the same GUYS? Perhaps Im hot hip, not up with the times, but to me when men act and look feminine thats a sign of being gay. Then again, I have no problems with gay people so this is not a normative judgement, not a condemnation. I think its more revealing of YOU that you find the word gay offensive. In the closet much, pawi?

  • Creo69

    “What am I supposed to think when I see poofy haircuts, pink shirts and Louis Vuitton handbags on guys?”
    Why would you think anything…aren’t you the one going on an on about treating people as “individuals?” And yet, every Korean with a “poofy” haircut and a “Louis Vuitton” handbag is gay to you. You are a piece of hypocritical work.

  • Creo69

    Sallyman(der) … Maybe you should try to adhere to the politics you so adamantly preach to everyone on this blog.

  • Creo69

    You have a single, woman for a President for Christ’s sake…. change happens very quickly in South Korea when it is wanted …and yes, Korean some Korean teachers are an embarrassment to the profession.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Creo, PGH’s election does not represent change; it’s a throwback to the good ol’ days of military dictatorship.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    If he means homosexual sex in the classroom – then – dah! of course – no sex should be allowed in the schools – the same as how smoking and drinking was wiped out of schools in 2005 (teachers were smoking in school bathrooms and carparks until 2005) and still do in many middle and high school bathrooms, empty rooms and rooftops in schools around the country.

    Actually, what he’s saying is that teachers should teach that homosexuality is wrong.

  • Creo69

    Politically….I probably agree…However, Korean women seeing a women with some balls in action as the leader of the country…trust me, it will create some positive (and long overdue) change in Korean society. NO question on that.

  • Creo69

    He can teach whatever he wants…but the train slowly left the station quite a few years ago in South and it won’t be returning. Idiots like this will accomplish what the “Prop 8″ crew did in the USA. Bring more attention and dialogue to the issue he is trying to silence. God how the world needs these bafoons!

  • Yu Bum Suk

     Park’s rise to president was decades in the making. Some things in Korea can change very quickly (look at the supermarket wine shelf now versus eight years ago) but attitudes about homosexuality isn’t one of them. And it’s certainly not the kind of thing politicians can legislate.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    So things like fads and fashions change quickly in Korea, but deep seated prejudices do not.  I understand..

    And it’s certainly not the kind of thing politicians can legislate.

    I disagree.  One of the historical lessons of Brown vs. Board of Education is that action can be legislated.  In the short term, you can argue that Brown did not change individuals’ attitudes, but it did change individuals’ actions.  In time and with exposure, individuals’ attitudes changed.  

  • Creo69

    Sorry…but you are simply wrong. When I arrived in Koerea 8 years ago no one was out and no one would even imagine to ask if you were gay. There are no gay entertainers who are out…gay characters on several shows…and the Seoul Dept of Education got a policy through that protected gay students from bullying.

    At the country tech high school I worked at one Korean teacher was out and neither the students nor staff seemed to care too much and he didn’t seem in the least bit concerned about any issues that might come of it.

    In only eight years things have changed dramatically…the next eight will bring faster change as the real ugliness is over.

  • Creo69

    Meant to write there are now gay entertainers who are out…one I am thinking of also runs a bunch of successful restaurants..everyone knows he is gay and it hasn’t stoped people from flocking to his businesses and making him rich.

  • Creo69

    And let’s be honest…Korea isn’t really a hostile country towards gays in the first place…violence against gays? Doesn’t happen much. The biggest thing holding gays back in Korea is the fact that gay Korean men are basically a bunch of mama’s boys who don’t want mother and her purse upset with them.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    That guy spent a lot of time out in the cold, though.

  • babotaengi

    When I came to Korea I was a university educated lad who thought everyone had the right to be who they were. Then I started working with a South American chap with a Korean boyfriend. He suggested we go out for dinner with my wife and his SO. Twenty minutes after dinner and ten minutes into drinks, they began fucking each other’s faces. The wait staff were arguing over who had to walk into that danger zone.

  • Arghaeri

    Don’t worry Pawi, we balance it out by loving the female half :-)

  • ChuckRamone

    A recent study found that homosexuality is likely caused by epigenetics during gestation. So, if it’s genetic, and they disallowed homosexuality in the classroom, would they not be allowing genetically homosexual students to go to school?

  • wangkon936

    Well… I’m I the only one here who thinks that sex in any type (be it student on student, teacher on teacher, teacher on student, administrator on student, etc., boy on girl, man on girl, man on man, boy on boy or otherwise) shouldn’t take place at all between K-12? Well, it’s gonna happen, but it should at least be hardcoded in the rules and laws that it shouldn’t happen.

  • wangkon936

    Chuck, 

    On the flip side, if it is epigenetics, then doesn’t that mean that through gene therapy (ultimately through technology advancement) homosexuality can be prevented if the parents wish so?

    Political correctness aside, if a doctor gave parents a laundry list of characteristics to change while in the womb, what parent wouldn’t be tempted to turn the homosexual gene off, if given the choice?  Hell, we can already pick which gender we want.

  • ChuckRamone

    This can be said of any epigenetically inherited trait. Should they disallow introverted students? Or lazy students? Or short students? It’s discriminatory and arbitrary in this light.

  • que337

    Genetic determinism seems not enough to explicate the homosexual orientation.  A study in New Zealand found a 3-fold higher prevalence of childhood abuse for those who
    subsequently engaged in same sex sexual activity:

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-010-9636-x

    Multifactorial model seems more plausible to explain the development of sexual orientation.

  • ecw73

    Epigenetic means that it is not encoded in DNA. Something modifies DNA and alters gene expression. If it is epigenetic, then that means it is not “genetic”, that is there is no gene or genes “for” homosexuality.

  • YangachiBastardo

    WK: amen to that man, we’re 2 and Christ Almighty Mr. Moon doesn’t the third largest metro area in the world have more pressing education-related issues to solve ?

  • wangkon936

    I agree.  Do 12 year olds really know if they are gay or straight or not?

  • YangachiBastardo

    Creo in all fairness you really think all the anti whatever education has actually ever prevented any single episode of crime from happening ? I mean i was thinking about it the other day: aparently we are here in the middle of a women abuse spree (surprise, surprise), and they’re spending quite a few euros in educational advertising. My thought is: who’s gonna stop beating their wife cos they watched an anti-domestic violence video ? I mean i’d really like to know somebody who’s so incredibly retarded that, on top of being a wife beater piece of shit, he also decide to stop cos well tv or school told him so. This stuff just preach to the converts.

    What is truly effective in curbing violence against minorities, women, gays, people in general etc. etc. is an efficient and harsh criminal justice system 

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    I think everybody—well, maybe not everybody—agrees students shouldn’t be doing the beast with two backs in the classroom. At the same time, teachers in public schools shouldn’t be teaching that homosexuality is wrong.

  • Yu Bum Suk

     Like you I arrived eight years ago and back then the only openly gay people I knew were foreigners. And that’s still the case. I know there’s one Korean entertainer / talk show host who’s gay, but he and Andre Kim are the only openly gay Koreans I’ve ever heard of. For whatever reason a lot of male dancers are gay and since boy band members are chosen foremost for their dancing ability a lot must be. It would be interesting to see what happens if they all started coming out. As for my 5’9″ broad-shouldered student with a fourth-degree black belt who I very strongly suspect is a lesbian – I think she’d feel a lot more comfortable flying under the radar as a tomboy than having clueless politicians enact legislation that will protect her from bullying so that she can celebrate her sexual orientation publicly.

  • gbnhj

    Just an aside (and despite any appearance to the contrary), but I don’t believe Andre Kim ever openly stated that he was homosexual.

  • SomeguyinKorea

     Some do and you’re working on the assumption that human sexuality is black and white: either your straight 100% of the time or your gay 100% of the time.  That is not always the case.

  • SomeguyinKorea

     I meant “you’re”, of course.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    Sure, now there is some tolerance…But, you weren’t around when he was immediately fired after he was more or less tricked into coming out, eh?

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7351116&page=1

  • Pingback: Korean Gender Reader, December 15-21 | The Grand Narrative

  • wonderingone

    I grew up as a gay teen in the 80′s, in a small, homophobic town in Canada. Let me add, it wasn’t just homophobic, but violently so. A few fellow high school teens tried to run me down with their mommy’s cars, I was almost stabbed twice, was attacked at school a few times, and even the police refused to take my charges against other students seriously (mostly because the ringleader was the police chief’s son). What got me through? Decent teachers who recognized that I was a straight-A student, and a decent human being. Teachers who took the time to make an effort with me, show me what I could accomplish, and were not gagged or bound by anti-gay laws. Without them, I would have probably committed suicide. No joke. 

    One of the reasons youth suicide is so high, is because gay teens have no support or even legal rights. This isn’t about granting special rights, it is about recognizing equal rights. These rights are already offered to others, so there is nothing “special” about them, only the minority they rightfully belong to. Would you rather have relatively well-adjusted youth, or dead youth?

  • Anonymous_Joe

    It’s the stories I hear gay adults tell of their youth that turned me from an “I don’t care, just don’t bother me” attitude toward gays to an ally for their rights.  I’ve heard stories of such pain and rejection from their families that I could only imagine rejecting my son if he had committed crimes against humanity.

    Everyone knows someone who is gay.  Not everyone necessarily has gay friends, but we all have gay acquaintances, someone we have some kind of human connection with.  If you ever get a chance to hear him speak of the pain in his life (and I don’t mean someone at a bookstore giving a talk but someone you have some kind of ordinary interaction), he will transform you or you just can’t be human.  I don’t think gays want special rights, they want human rights.

    D’ya hear me, bro?

  • ig5959292ee

    well said

  • que337

    Normality of sexual orientations could be an interesting question.  Zoophilia, coprophilia, necrophilia, etc.  Recently, Germany is planning to ban sex with animals:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/germany-plans-to-outlaw-sex-with-animals-a-869402.html