≡ Menu

US Soldier – Filipina mixed kids acquire illegal immigrant status before they are born

This MBC news report highlights the dire straits of the mixed children born between US army soldiers stationed in South Korea and the Filipina women who work in Kiji-chon (military campside towns). There are said to be around 1000 Filipina women who are in South Korean kiji-chon illegally, and when they are abandoned by the US soldiers who return to the country, like the case they show in the report, the women have no support from anybody including the Korean government for the babies.

I am surprised by the dire way the campside towns look in 동두천 – Tongduchun – it’s like we stepped right into a 1960′s film set. No wonder the US soldiers in Korea have a bad time, if that’s all they have to entertain themselves.

It highlights the problem of having a military presence in a country outside its own.
I like this question about the US military presence in Germany. I would add to the answers given (saving the German earned Euros), that even as former enemies, there is no real enmity resulting from difference of culture and race.

I also like the comments by the US readers in the PSY apology pieces. In Washington Post, they range from:

We have nearly 1000 bases in 175 nations no empire in history has had such a broad reach, and like all in history it is draining our economy and leading us to ruin, the New Rome as the PNAC, Neocons liked to claim America is just as Rome was broke and fragmented

to

Heck with it. I’ll comment again. This article doesn’t point out that the South Korean gov’t never asked the u.S. to leave. Back in 80s or so, when a nationalist Philippine gov’t got elected, they asked U.S. to withdraw from its largest port in Asia. The U.S. got out ahead of schedule. (Now, wise Philippines are kicking themselves, because they are left naked against open Chinese aggression against islands Philippines long thought they owned, until newly strong Chinese moved against them).
On the other hand, both Japan and South Korea never asked U.S. to leave.
Guess which country is pleading for U.S. bases? Vietnam! Yeah, Commie Vietnam, cuz Chinese are pressuring them heavily as well. It’s a hoot.
Still, you all must remember that all South Korea has to do is ask U.S. to leave and it will.

It looks like everybody needs their enemies.

Lastly, I would like to repeat what I’ve said on this blog many times. Say what you will about Roh Muhyun (especially those Americans who hate him for anti-Americanism), he was in the process of/implementing a controlled handover from the US army to the South Korean army, eventually paving the way for them to leave, which coincides with what you want.

  • Ironyfree

    for what its with (and this is just my memory of what wikileaks released so don’t quote me) Cheney actually pushed for the US to pull out of Korea.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Hankin/1037654521 Richard Hankin

    How can it be that birth control is not used?
    Haven’t there been stories of Koreans impregnating their “girlfriends” in The Philippines and then deserting them?
    As an aside: the idea that the US has “1000 bases” etc is a Ron Paul talking point and is somewhat misleading.
    Wiki has a breakdown of “US” bases worldwide and is quite informative. Most of the bases are just a few soldiers and are not a strategic asset for the US military.
    And, of course, an old man story.
    I was on a bus near an Ameircan Army base. I heard screaming and looked out the window and saw a brother and sister running in terror from some other Korean children. The Koreans on the bus laughed. I asked what is going on?
    One replied that they were “half breeds”!!!! circa 1974.
    sigh…
    it seems things have not changed so much eh?

  • wangkon936

    Ah, yes. Advocating the withdraw of U.S. troops from Korea. A common theme from the expat community. I have a question though. I can understand those who don’t plan to permanently stay in Korea want the U.S. to withdraw troops. However, it’s harder for me to understand the same desire from those who have decided to stay in Korea permanently. Wouldn’t you fellas want some 2nd ID “speed bumps” and a cloud of F-15s and F-22s between you and your daughters and sons?

  • Anonymous_Joe

    wangkon, an entire infantry division even with F-15s and F-22s couldn’t separate me from my daughter and son.

    Oh. Ok, wait. Gotcha.

    Hells yeah, I do. Also, from the point of view as an American taxpayer, the reality is that if US troops withdrew and the nuts from the north overran this place, it would only cost us more once the UN authorized “any means necessary.”

  • Charles Tilly

    So it looks like our Crackers in Uniform are being dissed by this Yuna. Fear not. She pulls this shit again, you fellas just play the 코피노 card.

  • Charles Tilly

    I hope not in the middle of Korea’s kegel exercise.

  • wangkon936

    CT,

    The main difference here is that U.S. troops are government employees, which may (or may not) imply some responsibility by the U.S. government. I mean, perhaps we should at least give these kids and their moms green cards or work visas if their fathers are not willing to take care of them?

  • Charles Tilly

    The main difference here is that U.S. troops are government employees,
    which may (or may not) imply some responsibility by the U.S. government.
    I mean, perhaps…

    Once you get a better handle on the situation you’re outlining, come back then.

  • wangkon936

    CT,

    We are talking about a post author who probably hasn’t lived the majority of her life in Korea and currently resides in the UK. I honestly don’t think she’s tackling this issue in the manner you think she might be. I don’t think it’s a situation of where a Korean woman is berating American men for not taking care of their bastard offspring but something a little more basic regarding human dignity.

    I think you are injecting your own prejudices at this point (i.e. the “cracker in uniform” and “코피노” references) than what she really meant to convey. You brought those things up, not her. I have seen no history of her trying to do so in the past, so I’m more ready to give her a pass.

  • Charles Tilly

    How is it every time I read you trying to explain yourself you don’t really explain anything and just make it sound….dafter? Help to understand this aspect of you.

  • wangkon936

    I think we are talking above each other. I don’t know about you, but I’m gonna move on. However, as a moderator, I do take accusations (as in your original comment above) that a poster has prejudices against American service members seriously.

    I see no such prejudices by yuna and I ask you to refrain for making such accusations without sufficient evidence.

  • Charles Tilly

    Ugggghh….Okay then.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dcmusicfreak DC Musicfreak

    An important story — but can MBC be trusted to tell it?

  • wangkon936

    Good point.

  • martypants

    I’d be thrilled to have American soldiers leave Korea…as well as Japan, Germany, Panama….but if you think that’s going to happen because of any unilateral decision by a leader of another country you are sadly mistaken about the nature of American power. They’ll leave when they want to – and when there are jobs for all those soldiers back home, and not a moment before. If South Korea asks, don’t be surprised if the US doesn’t say no, but Hell no!

  • HSchmidt

    Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants. Even Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Norway don’t support illegal immigrants.

    Illegal immigrants are a waste of money and resources. Just deport them. Stop wasting money on supporting illegal immigrants and mail order brides.

    Korea should help fellow Koreans first.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Yes, exactly, as I was writing I also thought of Korean-Filipina babies abandoned in the Philippines.
    Not that it’s any better, I guess at least these kids have a nationality when they are born in the Philippines.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I know, again, somebody did say what should the left do for the election?
    It might be one-sided but the room for being unscientific/inaccurate is much smaller than with other issues.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Er, thanks Wangkon for the protection, but it’s OK. If it might seem like I am dissing the US military men to some, it’s open to interpretation and they have a right to pull out the “Kopino” card because I see that as a big problem too. I appreciate your concern (so are you the new moderator? TAN TAN TAN TAN~ ) but don’t worry about me on my post at any rate.
    I find direct curiosity uncomfortable because I am reluctant/shy to personal engagement with online people offline. Also, not that it matters, – I don’t currently reside in the UK, (though not in Korea) I’m not a conventional kyopo in the sense that I speak Korean, and my parents live in Korea, I’ve spent about half of my life in cumulative years in Korea, the other half I’ve moved around many places (yes including the UK) and I am not “settled” in one country yet, but I understand you were trying to defend me.

  • pawikirogii

    where is the outrage from the expats? when its k men leaving babies in asia, its a hundred post thread but when its the expat, you get silence. why?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I guess the more relevant points are that the last time I lived in Korea was during the Roh Muhyun era into the LMB era – I left Korea soon after his suicide in 2009, also during my time in Korea might have been the beginning of when I first started to comment here.
    And the 2002 anti-Americanism people talk about I didn’t experience first hand because although I was in Korea then, I had left for abroad just before the Hyosun-Misun incident.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dcmusicfreak DC Musicfreak

    I’m not sure there is a “side” that is pro-abandoning the love children of soldiers and hookers, but (and I must acknowledge I have not yet looked at the report) MBC has such a poor track record on emotive issues — or a great track record at turning things into emotive issues — that I’m ready for journalistic malpractice or critical omissions. E.g. If 1,000 Filipinas are known to be living illegally and selling sex in northern Gyeongi province, they could be rounded up quickly and easily. Who profits from their presence? Who brings them into Korea and how?

  • Sonagi

    Having a child with a US citizen does not confer immigration benefits nor should it. Many foreign countries have bilateral agreements with the US regarding enforcement of court-ordered chukd support. If the Philippines has such an agreement, they mother would not need to travel to the US, she could file a claim with a local court in the Philippines. These children are not stateless as the Philppines recognizes jus sanguini citizenship. A successful international child paternity and support claim could establish US citizenship for these children, too.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Good point. According to this article(is Women News reasonable?), 90 percent of the women in Kijichon are from the Philippines, and they come into Korea by E6 visa , and both Korean government (who turn a blind eye) and the US military who set up the original Kijichon are to blame.

    A better insight might be this . I mean, why they still think this sort of thing is necessary in this day and age is beyond me. Can they not trust the soldiers to hit the town like the others and behave? Do they not have this sort of thing for South Korea available in Kindle or wot?

  • gumiho

    That’s exactly the reason my wife did not return to Korea when her first marriage (to a GI) fell apart back in ’72-she knew what life would be like for her daughter there. As it turns out, we didn’t even have to go to Korea to experience that attitude-we’ve had plenty of Koreans speak (to us!) disparagingly of the woman in their family who brought disgrace to the family by marrying an American. Of course, this would be the same woman who brought all of them over to the US,but that’s beside the point,I guess.
    Back then, when we we first together, we tried to go to a Korean church, but we soon found out that we and our children were not really accepted.These days, my wife’s friends are solely other women like her, who married Americans.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Say what you will about Roh Muhyun (especially those Americans who hate him for anti-Americanism), he was in the process of/implementing a controlled handover from the US army to the South Korean army, eventually paving the way for them to leave, which coincides with what you want.

    I’m not sure that’s actually what happened. Or I should say, that’s what happened, but I’m not sure that’s what he initially intended.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Two other things: Great post, and Dongducheon used to be a lot worse. When I first visited it, a couple of days after 9.11, it was the grimmest dump I’d seen in Korea. Now it’s got a subway stop and a bit more development. If you want to see grim and depressing, check out some some of the small towns in Paju where US bases have been abandoned. Wander around there and you’d be forgiven for wondering where in Hamgyeongbuk-do you were.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    I dont think what she is saying is so outlandish. The soldiers are employees of the government and the US government should have some responsibility for what they do when abroad.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Yeah, in the short term. In the long term, though, it benefits neither side of the alliance to keep Korea a virtual protectorate. I firmly believe a lot of the holes in the ROK military we’ve seen as of late is due to a sense of complacency bred by the current US troop presence. I also think an argument could also be made that North Korea screws so much with the South because it knows the United States will step in to stop the South from wacking the North back. I believe in the Korea—US alliance, and there are obviously things we can compliment each other on, but the current level of dependence is, IMHO, unhealthy for both parties.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Just out of curiosity, does the US military have regulations regarding this sort of thing? Surely, there must be a way to garnish soldiers’ wages for child support.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com/ Sperwer

    The purpose of US overseas deployments is not to protect my personal interests or those of any other individual expats or group of expats but US national interest. If they are withdrawn, i would calculate the significance and the risks and act accordingly.

  • Sonagi

    Children do not acquire citizenship in any country until they are born.

  • wangkon936

    If Korea, like Japan, paid of 70% of the costs of having two infantry brigades and four wings of fighter bombers, then I would say it’s worth it. I think what Korea pays now is about 30%, or less. I like maintaining full size military assets for a fraction of the cost.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    I’d like the US and SK to use a withdrawal of US troops as a bargaining chip for NK denuclearisation. It would also give the NK and pro-commie SK propaganda machines less ammunition.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    Two brigades is not a hell of a lot and the jets can always be quickly flown back into the theatre of operations if necessary. There’s no reason why Korea couldn’t add two more equivalent brigades for only slightly more cost (especially if most of the troops are conscripts who apparently eat much less expensive meals).

  • John from Daejeon

    It has happened before and it will sadly happen again: http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/left-by-the-ship/

    You would think that the Amerasian Homecoming Act would be at least extended to all current, and former, U.S. military posts in Asia though.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Most likely because they aren’t equivalent. 2 US brigades >> 2 ROK brigades. This goes not only for battle effectiveness but also for what it implies will follow. Mainly though would you trust the defense of this country to US soldiers or the 20 somethings that are conscripted here? My wife has a brother and several cousins who served in the military and let me tell you, I do not feel safe thinking boys like them are the ones defending this place. Not to say the ROK does not have tough soldiers, but the majority of them are anything but. And even then, if a guy like MJI was a special forces guy, what does that imply about the ROK’s special forces?

  • Wedge1

    Long-term, it would force Korea to be responsible for its own defense, which it is entirely capable of handling with an economy far better than the one in the North. Korea is like a 40-year-old still living in his mom’s basement. It’s time to drop the agoraphobia. Short-term, our forces could leave today and the North still couldn’t win. And beyond Korea, it’s time the world *cough* Europe *cough* became responsible for its own defense in general.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    This is not the experience our family is having at the Yongsan International School.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    You’re ignorant as hell. The United States vacated strategic facilities in both Panama and the Philippines simply because the host country asked for it.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    I’m sure that two regular brigades of US infantry pack more punch than two regular ROK infantry brigades, but maybe that would be incentive for SK to form two stronger-than-usual brigades. In the event of hostilities it would also prevent the US from being marred by the inevitable prisoner and civilian abuse, since all it would take is one alleged rape from group of 12,000 guys on the loose for Korean lefties to go apoplectic, no matter what SK or NK forces did to civilians.

    BTW, in Vietnam the Viet Cong didn’t think ROK forces were so inferior to Americans (mind you in that case the former were volunteers and the latter contained many conscripts).

  • http://twitter.com/BROMOTORBOAT Kevin Landry

    everyone loves my kids too.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Yes, but that was in the 1970s when life in Korea was pretty tough and so were the people. Take a look around you today and tell me the 20 something boys with their prissy hair cuts, their prissy wardrobes and their Starbucks lattes are the same as the men back in the Vietnam war era.

    I think in the event of a war the lefties would be shot on sight by anyone with any decency

  • Yu Bum Suk

    I guess that depends on how many ‘tough’ troops Korea would need in modern-day warfare. If the SK units recruits have to request to join (marines, paras, various special forces) aren’t able to hold them off it might be a problem. Otherwise it might not matter much. Look at the weight of some US service people. Would you want them running supplies to you if you were on the front line?

    In a war involving up to 1,000,000 men I doubt two US brigades would determine the difference.

  • Wedge1

    We just withdrew troops from Iraq on their request as well. If that doesn’t prove it, nothing does.

  • gumiho

    Well, this was over 30 years ago,so hopefully, things are different now.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Richard-Hankin/1037654521 Richard Hankin

    Not looking for a fight here but I just did a quick, cursory check on Korean attitudes towards bi racial children etc and things have improved, at least somewhat, though prejudices remain.
    And why would one EXPECT trouble at an INTERNATIONAL school, by definition the children ALL come from different backgrounds?
    I am, as usual, perplexed?
    and as gumiho said MY experience was quite a long time ago. just saying.
    Thanks gumiho.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    The overwhelming majority of families at any international school in Seoul are ethnic Korean. Whether they are ethnic Koreans holding foreign citizenship or whether they’re “real” Koreans who connived somehow to get their kids out of the grip of Korean schools, they have Korean parents whispering in their ears about The Amazing Race. Mixed marriages, and “real” foreigners make up a distinct minority.

  • Craash beck

    Phillippines are Catholic – that’s why NO birth control.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Doesn’t this defeat much of the purpose of going to an international school?

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    Not really. My objective in sending my kids to international school is not for them to be insulated from all contact with ethnic Koreans.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Of course, but there’s a spectrum between total isolation and being in an environment totally dominated by Koreans and the sort of Confucian hierarchy that is, let’s face it, very unhealthy. If you’re on the same end of the spectrum as any public school, then what’s the point? The curriculum? You might as well home-school and your child will learn more.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    OK, it didn’t happen, but here he is advocating the 작전통제권 (OPCON) transfer to ROK. In the beginning he starts off berating the complacency of the ROK army command with exactly your comment below.

    I firmly believe a lot of the holes in the ROK military we’ve seen as of late is due to a sense of complacency bred by the current US troop presence

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    So your position is that if the people in the school are ethnically Korean, it is inevitably the same as attending a Korean public school? That, too, is incorrect.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    No, the curriculum will be different and I’m sure the classes are run differently and I bet the facilities are nicer. Having no experience with the Korean education system I can’t say much about the in-class dynamics. But I would guess that the way the kids socialize outside of the classroom will be very much a Korean way. My son is not school aged yet and I am debating whether to send him to an international school or not. One reason, maybe the main reason for doing so would be to keep him out of the Korean Confucian garbage. My son has a friend who is 9 months older. They have been calling each other by name since they became friends. Out of the blue his father started getting all prissy about my son not using 형 when speaking to him. That’s the sort of crap Id like my son to avoid.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com/ Sperwer

    What you just described has nothing to do with school, though. My daughter goes to an int’l school too, albeit the one with the “best” (i.e. majority)) ratio of genuine foreign kids to ethnic Koreans (all of whom moreover are both foreign citizens themselves and the children of Korean parents with overseas citizenship and usually lengthy periods of actual residence). None of what I consider the undesirable aspects of Korean, let alone “Confucian”, culture are in evidence there or, as far as I can tell, in my daughter’s out-of-school experiences with her ethnic Korean friends; in fact, I’m more concerned about the influence of some of the attitude I see among the dip-kid and corp-kid element. In either case, though, the school itself, which has an almost completely expat teaching staff, is the best check on both those potential ills (which in the case of the ethnic Korean students is only very partially ameliorated by their legal status as “foreigners”). So int’l schools generally are a viable alternative and some are better than others in this connection (as well as in others).

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    If your son speaks Korean, he ought to learn how to speak Korean like a Korean, hyung and all. Sorry, but that’s the fact. Failure to use proper terms of address is as grating as me getting called “Mr. Brendon”.

  • ChuckRamone

    Wow, those sound like some really uptight Koreans. My Korean American family has intermarried with other people and nobody really cares. Maybe I’m just lucky to be from a more open-minded Korean family.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    What’s wrong with the dip-kids and corp-kids? They not respectful of the old white men?

  • gumiho

    Well, like I said, a lot of this happened many years ago. Back then, in ’76 when we were going to get married, the Korean minister advised my wife to ‘get rid’ of her daughter before she remarried. This was pretty much the last straw for her and church. That daughter, who would have lived a difficult, marginalized life in Korea is now a very high-ranking Government official here.

  • wangkon936

    I’m sure the ROK army will do fine. Even 20 something pretty boys have at least a little bit of a hard ass ajosshi in them if they are properly motivated or provoked. The days of “bug out” fever are over.

    Two brigades of modern American mechanized infantry do have substantially more firepower than two equivalent Korean brigades. I’m sure down to the individual rifleman, there isn’t much difference, but I would imagine that there is an advantage to the NCO and officer corps of an all volunteer professional army vs. that of a conscript army.

    Where American forces have a clear advantage is in support firepower such as air assets (including attack helos), artillery, armor, etc. America has more of these assets per capita per combat trooper.

    Oh, btw, only one brigade of the 2nd ID is permanently stationed in Korea. The other two combat brigades are in McChord, WA. The brigade stationed in Korea is a heavy mechanized combat brigade, meaning that it is heavy on tanks, armor, artillery and air assets. In terms of firepower, it would probably be much more capable to most other ROK brigades. The theory is that in times of tensions, the other two brigades can be quickly sent to Korea to make bring the 2nd ID to full strength. Additionally, there is enough infrastructure for the USFK to quickly bring up additional assets such as the 1st Armored Cav Division (tank and armor heavy unit), the 1st Armored Division and the 3rd Marine Division from Okinawa, if necessary. The thinking is that if North Korea is serious about invading the south, then there would be plenty of evidence such as radio chatter, troop and equipment movements, etc. where the U.S. would have time to bring up additional assets and the south can move troops to the DMZ and establish more readiness (i.e. put the fear of God into the 20 year old kids).

    American air assets in Kunsan and Osan is already large, and can support a lot more American ground units, as well as support Korean ground units, although I am not sure how integrated American and Korean ground and air assets are to coordinate support missions.

  • wangkon936

    Maybe the Northern and Southern communists don’t want less ammunition for their propaganda machines?

  • wangkon936

    It was awhile ago. Things have changed, for the better. It takes time for a society to accept other races, even the U.S.

  • wangkon936

    Com’on SMS. A little Confucianism isn’t so bad. A lot of Korean American parents send their kids to Korea to live with relatives in the summer and the kids come back magically more well behaved.

  • wangkon936

    Brendon is giving his kids the gift of bi-cultural and bilingualism, which in this rapidly globalizing world, is a powerful thing to have. Being American has its advantages. Being Korean has its advantages. Being able to seamlessly integrate and move into and move out of both worlds will give his kids an edge in the competitive market after they become adults.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Actually nothing about Confucianism is good, and even a little rots your brain and gives it cavities.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    I don’t think you know what Confucianism remotely even is.

  • wangkon936

    Oh, does it put hair on your palms and make you go blind too?… ;)

    Confucianism refined for the modern era has its benefits:

    http://tinyurl.com/cnukuy9

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Don’t expect him to know much.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    So explain it to me, if you’re such an expert; TK can chime in as well since he’s an expert on everything. One aspect, and for me the deal breaker, is the demand of Confucianism to impart respect on others merely because of their age, social position, gender, etc. One is OWED respect merely because he is older or a relative, and not just respect, mind you, but subservience. 형 may be a jackass but he’s my 형 and I will therefore prostrate myself before him and use language that re-enforces my subservient position with respect to him. Why? Because he popped out of the womb before I did. Confucianism is a form of social control (what better way to control than to destroy independent thinking?), it destroys the individual’s ability to make reasoned judgement about others and hobbles an individual’s ability to assert themselves and their autonomy – the individual is placed into a set and inflexible social order that he need not think about, but needs to obey. Look around at all the garbage afforded respect in this country, the drunks, the loud older men, on an every day basis and you will see the effects of Confucianism. is Confucianism MORE? You tell me, but the above is enough for me to dislike it.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    My wife is Korean and so my son, and daughter, speak the language as fluently as one would expect children their age to speak a language. Language isn’t going to be a problem. Here’s the thing: the cost of an international school is considerable hence it should offer something to substantially raise it above a local school. It could be the curriculum and the teachers – and I’m not convinced that Western curriculum is much better, or better, or even as good as Korean curriculum nor am I convinced that in South Korea the Western teachers are anything but EFL teachers who went to the Philippines for some 3 week “Certificate” and are now teaching Int’l school. Correct me if I’m wrong. Though having gone through Western schooling I’m not sure it matters, really, considering that western teachers are not exactly virtuosos of the art of imparting knowledge and independent thinking. That leaves facilities and precisely what I said: an environment that fosters independent thought and autonomy; and that means as little Confucianism as possible,

  • wangkon936

    SMS,

    I think you are taking particular details on Confucianism and showing a little disdain for it.

    I suggest you read this article: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=east%20asian%20development%20confucianism&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fej.lib.cbs.dk%2Findex.php%2Fcjas%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1767%2F1787&ei=JGDKULueDIq-igLg9oEQ&usg=AFQjCNHx4eCHw7Drwr_x-28se9qYR8VtyA&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.cGE

    Without Confucianism, Japan could not make as good cars or mechanical products, Korea could not make good cell phones or ships, and China would still be a backwater mess like India or South America.

    You are seeing its negative side effects, but you seem to be ignoring its positive direct effects.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    I agree, but to suddenly turn around, after over a year of them calling each other by their names and no one having a problem, and to demand that now my son call his friend 형 is plainly idiotic, though to be expected from an ajossi in his mid 40s.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    So its OK to make people into robots because robots make good ships? And are Korean surgeons the best because they use chopsticks?

  • wangkon936

    If your son wants to live in Korea he’s just going to have to deal with it. I don’t like it when I meet someone recently from Korea who is just a little older than me insisting on being called 형, but I just deal with it so I don’t start a fight.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    That’s entirely possible.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    That’s very true, and we cannot control this, but we can control where our child spends 8 hours of his or her day, i.e. his or her school. If the school does not offer an escape from this then what good is it?

  • Yu Bum Suk

    ” I’m sure down to the individual rifleman, there isn’t much difference,
    but I would imagine that there is an advantage to the NCO and officer
    corps of an all volunteer professional army vs. that of a conscript
    army”

    But the senior ROK NCOs and officers are volunteers, are they not? I would think that at the section / squad and platoon level the Americans would be better led, but above that I’d think experience levels would be similar, except that the ROKs have trained for the Korean War Mk 2 all their lives whereas the Americans might be new on the ground.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Yeah, whatever. Call me when they start installing metal detectors in Korean schools.

  • wangkon936

    Oh, boy. This is gonna take a lot of work.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Read the annotations for the Analects 12:11, and you will learn that everything you think you know about Confucianism is completely wrong.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    So Confucianism really promotes free thinking?

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com/ Sperwer

    No, 95% of them are white, so that’s not the issue. It’s some’s arrogant sense of entitlement – that is inversely proportional to their actual deserts – apparently a trait you share, eh dipshit?

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Depends on what you mean by “free,” esp since you tend to give weird, idiosyncratic definitions to words.

  • wangkon936

    Dear Sperwer,

    Can we refrain from calling fellow commenters “dipshit?” Thank you.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    TK, that’s all fine and good, but can you tell me that Confucianism as it is practiced today is a faithful copy of the teaching of Confucius? Its rather as with Christianity, which is Christian in name ONLY, and has little to do with the teachings of Christ.

    So Confucius may have said ““Respect yourself and others will respect you.” but really, respect in this country is an entitlement based on age and social position and very little about merit.

  • gbnhj

    It’s been my experience that society here judges me not only on how or what I think, but how I act. In simple terms, Korean society rewards those individuals who contribute its collective strength, in ways such as showing age-based deference to others, and withholds reward to those who do not.

    I’ve always felt that, as a non-Korean, it has been my role not to attempt to change Koreans to fit my concept of social order, but to change myself to fit in with Koreans’ sense of theirs. And, although I admit to the challenge of seemingly simple maxim, I can also say that I’ve done well by it, both personally and professionally. If you and your family intend to live here, and wish to maintain comfortable relations with people in general, I recommend that for that for you as well.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    So you know nothing about Confucianism then? Given that you cannot tell on your own if there is any difference between Confucianism and what is labeled as Confucianism in Korea, that seems to be the logical conclusion.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    But how does showing age-based deference contribute to collective strength? So your approach has been to assimilate yourself into the collective. That’s your choice, of course, but not one I would make. Fundamentally I’d like my son to define for himself who he is instead of simply assimilating into ANY culture, Korean or Western, and for that I’d like him to question every aspect of any culture, and see if it passes the sniff test…to me respecting people simply because of their age is one aspect of any culture that does not pass the sniff test.

    But thanks for your permission to live here.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Fundamentally I’d like my son to define for himself who he is instead of simply assimilating into ANY culture, Korean or Western.

    Great. Let us know how that works out for you.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    I see the Korean brand Confucianism, or the pale imitation of the real deal, every day in Korea, TK, you know, the place where YOU ARE NOT. Call it what you will, but it (the modern version) is certainly not conducive to seeing the world from the vantage point of an individual. Whatever it is that reigns here reduces a person to a small member of a larger collective, a brick in the wall. This is collectivism, whether you call it Confucianism or something else. We could have the same discussion about Christianity, which is a pale imitation of the actual teachings of Christ, and which is really a corrupted copy of those teachings. This is not surprising as the institutions built on any sort of teaching end up far from what the original teachings were. When it comes to religions like Christianity or ethical systems like Confucianism the State usually appropriates them to its own purposes: control.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    An appeal to authority? Really? You don’t argue cases in court very often, do you?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    There are certain functional requirements to living in a country, language being one of those. So certainly knowing the language and being familiar with the culture are important things. That is something anyone should know when living in any country.But I do not consider this to be assimilation. What I would not like is for his birthplace to determine more than that, and I would like him to be able to reject moralities and ethics that he has not THOUGHT THROUGH.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    I would not consider a philosophy major just because a large number of people adhere to it. Seems to me more like a collection of spiffy sound bites than a reasoned philosophy.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com/ Sperwer

    Dear WangKon:

    I’m always happy to stay out of the faces of those who stay out of mine.

  • Anonymous

    The main difference, in our experience, is that at a private school the teachers understand that kids who are acquiring several languages at the same time will have gaps in their ability to communicate at the early stages, but will eventually become fluent. In the public school, the teachers nagged our kid in front of the class, humiliating him, because he wasn’t better at English because he’s a “waegukin”, ignoring the obvious reasons why he wasn’t fully fluent in English: 1) he’s no less Korean than the other kids, he just happens to have a father who isn’t, 2) he has lived in Korea all his life and so Korean is his first language, and 3) English is just one of the many languages he’s learning at the same time (he speaks four). What makes it much more infuriating is that the teacher wasn’t able to put two and two together despite the fact that he got some of the best scores in his class in Korean.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Explain to me why what you assume, which I presume is egalitarianism, should be the default? You haughtily think your preconceived Western notion to be universal. Based on what I am seeing from your other comments, you wish to persist in your stubbornness. You throw around the word “Confucianism” as though it lacks substance and merely refers things that happen to be Asian and that you disagree with. I bet you even blame plastic surgery on Confucianism. You yourself exhibit group think, what you claim be against: there are a number of people who think just as uncritically as you do. Before you grandstand how ignorant you are of this subject, I’d recommend you at least read 大學(대학, Great Learning). There’s a 사저성어(四字成語, four character idiom) that describes what your thinking exhibits very well, and comes from another Confucian work, which you should also read, and that idiom is: 坐井觀天(좌중관천).

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    I don’t think egalitarianism should be the default. I actually don’t care what the default is, since I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the collective or society. I do think individualism suits me since, well, I’m really a misanthrope at heart. You are free to be as much of a collectivist as you want, I allow you. But I hope you’ve at least thought it through. If you did, knock yourself out and be a borg.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    It’s self-evident that he doesn’t know much and is merely spewing his insecurities on some phantom.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Well, then. I hope you like sitting in deep wells for the rest of your life.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Was I culturally insensitive and hurt your feelings?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    deep wells?

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Yes, you did hurt my feelings, but for another reason: seeing people as stubborn and ignorant as you, while trumpeting the label “free thinking,” is rather repulsive and makes me lose faith in all of humanity.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Yes. If you were “free thinking” as you claim, you would have taken the time to enlighten yourself by learning another language or script, and would have figured out what I meant by “deep wells” from what I said in a comment above. But that’s too much free thinking for you.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Hey, at least according to SalarymaninSeoul, that would constitute free thinking.

  • gbnhj

    But thanks for your permission to live here.

    Snap! Except I didn’t offer that. Instead, I tried to offer a recommendation. You seem to not to need it, however.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Well, join the club, I lost faith in humanity a long time ago, hence my dislike for any ethics that promotes collectivism. Again, I will make the point that it is irrelevant what the original teachings were about. The only relevant thing to this discussion is what happens on a daily basis in this country. The collectivism, the feelings of entitlement to respect and authority by people who do not deserve it may or may not be in the spirit of Confucianism, but they are the daily reality in Korea.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Don’t let your feelings of self-importance grow out of proportion, I really don’t have time to go hunting for your posts above.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Thank you, but maybe later. I’m not an old fogey collectively thinking like you yet. You fail to define what is “free thinking” and what is “collectivism.” If you were any more “free thinking” and enlightened, you’d realize empiricism is a very weak basis to make your argument on.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    And what exactly is the basis for your argument?

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    I’m not acting self-important. I only wish you to be true to what you’re saying and finish it to its logical end. The post I speak of is only a few up. The word I was referring to is 坐井觀天(좌정관천). I hope you take the time to be as “free thinking” as you espouse and figure out what that means without appealing to such “authority” as dictionaries, since dictionaries came about long before you and I were born; and according to you, people shouldn’t be servile to things older than themselves. As for my being self-important, according to you, I’m servile and subservient, and therefore according to you I cannot be “self-important.” Please do not be in two planes of thinking, without admitting to it. It is a form of cognitive dissonance. Also, don’t use English in your explanation –or any form of set down language–, because that would mean that you’d be servile to a bunch of dead old white guys, whom the rest of sane folks follow because they just happened to be born before us.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Empiricism is reference-dependent. If you take the earth, for instance, to be your reference, the earth would be still and everything would be revolving around it; If you take the sun, on the other hand, as your reference, everything would be revolving around the sun. To sum up, my point is: the world doesn’t revolve around you.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dcmusicfreak DC Musicfreak

    You seem to be a fine linguist, kuiwon, but this is a logical trainwreck of a comment, from start to finish.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    That was not the question I asked. I asked about you. But I would argue that last point: to me, the world does indeed revolve around me.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dcmusicfreak DC Musicfreak

    Fallacious use of reductio ad absurdum.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Language is a tool, nothing else. Is a plumber subservient to his wrench (or the wrench manufacturer) or does he use the tool to accomplish a task?

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Agreed. This could be an interesting discussion if both, though specifically more so one more than the other, get out of the ad hominems, stop projecting the other’s arguments, and quit thinking that lacking knowledge of some cultural allusions totally destroys the dissenter morally, physically, and intellectually.

  • Anonymous

    Exactly. It’s a reflection of the culture, which is why it is an intrinsic part of the Korean grammar and lexicon. Heck, there have been studies conducted in the US on the conflict resolution strategies of first and second generation Koreans, and it was found that they’ll often use those honorifics even if they speak in English.

  • Anonymous

    Exactly. Bilingualism and multilingualism is one of the best gifts parents can give to their children. It’s not just a matter of getting jobs. Navigating between cultures is immensely rewarding, and my ability to communicate in more than one language is the ship that has carried me through that journey.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    It might also be interesting if both, though specifically more so one more than the other, stop making sweeping negative comments about matters he clearly knows very little about.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Yes, please tell him.

  • Anonymous

    It’s not idiotic, it’s the language and the culture. It serves its communicative purposes. Not to make a tu quoque argument, but I’m sure there are many things in Western culture which appears idiosyncratic to Koreans, but to us it is perfectly normal.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Indeed. For that, with a contrite mind, I apologize to the rest of the readers on this thread.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Well, whatever purpose it served, he has managed to fill his son full of Confucian garbage, where the kid started trying to assert his superiority over my son, and the kids have stopped playing together.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    On the off-chance you’re not being sarcastic, I was telling you.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    So, while you refuse to apologize to me for your ad hominems, I will be the bigger man and will apologize to you.

  • http://kuiwon.wordpress.com/ Kuiwon

    Apology accepted. I apologize for my acerbic words too.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    So now I would like to get to the bottom of what you find offensive in what I wrote. Is it that I claim that Korea is a Confucian as well as a collectivist country? That I claim that Confucianism leads to collectivism? Is it my value judgment on collectivism?

  • Anonymous_Joe

    RK, then let their arguments stand on their own.

    (You have a habit of chiming in on these matters, making such statements, and failing to substantiate. Please note that I’m not commenting on the validity, one way or the other, of your comment; I’m commenting on your unsubstantiated comments. Go ahead, attack his statements, but be specific. If you’re going to comment, then comment, but don’t do drive-bys.)

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Go ahead, attack his statements, but be specific. If you’re going to comment, then comment, but don’t do drive-bys.

    Please don’t tell me how to comment on my own blog. Thanks for your cooperation.

    At any rate, do I really need to explain why comments like “Actually nothing about Confucianism is good, and even a little rots your brain and gives it cavities” are asinine?

  • Anonymous_Joe

    OK, RK, I understand.

    The part of the post you referenced that I decided not to post was that this is your blog, and as such you carry more weight in judgment, which you seem to exercise, not necessarily consistently, and without substantiation.

    Yes, this is your blog, and you tell other people how to comment on your blog but don’t want to get called out on yourself.

    That’s cool. After all, it’s your blog.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Actually, its OK, I think RK is right in his comment. It was a bit of good hearted hyperbole but perhaps I should have been more careful.

  • hardyandtiny

    There have been cases where Filipino women hired a lawyer, had the soldier (who was no longer in Korea) take a DNA test and then went on to collect child support, but it’s a very long and difficult process. There used to be a Filipino lawyer in Korea who specialized in these type of cases but I don’t know if she’s still around.

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    How can anyone believe that Koreans are “robots”? These people are rambunctious. Have you never seen protests or industrial actions, or driven on a public road?

  • http://www.bcarr.com/ Brendon Carr

    You’d be surprised. The US military is supposedly highly regimented (har har), but in actual fact what is being inculcated by the military’s “rigid” insistence on values, duty and honor is not robotic obedience, but rather a capacity for independent action.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I apologize for my misunderstanding.
    What’s your excuse then?

    I think my mother told me to be as arrogant as I can be to those who are arrogant, and who like to wield power/authority often. Not very Confucian of her.

    And abroad, dip kids and corp kids and academic kids were all my friends. They were not the arrogant ones.
    Maybe it’s different in Korea. Being white in Korea, and past the age of 12, makes you arrogant, I can imagine that, unfortunately parents attitude rub off on their children, especially the ones disparaging of the locals. “Gawdawful country, we cannot get Ribena, and no deodorant, the gel sort…tsk tsk tsk”

    In Hong Kong international school all the kids got on, even the Chinese ones but looking back, I did see a bit of an attitude problem of all of us who didn’t speak Cantonese. The real problem was with the British army wives, lording over the locals. Thank God I wasn’t put to an Army kids international school.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Wangkon, IT”S OK.
    Imagine, if he had to refrain from writing dipshit, we would never have known how he really felt.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I had no real feeling about Confucianism, except I attributed to my strange attitude of being unable to smoke in the street already well in my adulthood when my uni professors came down the same street to being influenced by it somewhat.
    However, I lost all respect for it recently when a Korean woman who was arguing (although she never tried dogmeat) for the Korean right to eat dog, pulled out the “Confucian” card. Korea is a Confucian society, that explains why Koreans can beat the dog to death. I was like “WURHCIHWENLUWERHERW”.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com/ Sperwer

    “Misunderstanding.” Lol. Thanks for the non-apology apology. Very Korean/Confucian of you!

  • Anonymous

    And you weren’t feeding him your own negative attitudes towards the type of deference that exists within Korean grammar?

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    For you, Sperwer, any time !! (and maybe GBevers, but he cuts a more pitiful figure nowadays, so I should ease up on him)

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Good job. I often write to friends that the United States military personnel are not so unquestionably obedient as Koreans in everyday, every walk of life. American soldiers have drilled into them from day one that they have a duty to disobey illegal orders, and I’ve seen it. I don’t believe that Koreans (as a broad but good generalization) in civilian life would disobey illegal (for lack of better term) orders, and I’ve seen it.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    I’ve written about this to friends too. Koreans are rambunctious in mobs and in the bubble land created by the anonymity of their cars, but not in terms of individual action. I’ve often marveled at Koreans’ unwillingness to openly take individual stances and actions.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Don’t know if it’s a feature of the disshite, or moderators fiddling around, but I cannot see my comments (reply to Wangkon about Sperwer’s right to call me dipshit) or my smoking experience with Confucianism.
    It’s really frustrating. Comments disappear and then appear.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I see, it’s how you view them (best or most recent), when I view them as most recent, they reappear, but the most recent stay within the nested replies loop which is still confusing.
    It’s frustrating to keep going up and down.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    Not true, have you never had a Korean old woman or an old man tell you off because they are old?
    For example, a Korean grandma would tell a young woman – a complete stranger she sees on the bus with hair covering one half of her face off and physically put a hairpin on her. She would also try and pull up the falling off trousers of hip-hop youngsters.
    They are acting individually, and what gives them this preposterous power?
    This is the power of that blasted KOREAN BRAND OF CONFUCIANISM.

  • Anonymous_Joe

    Yuna, do you really think that is acting individually? The examples you gave were “individuals” acting within the full force of their Confucian order and collectivism. The old or those higher in the Confucian order are conferred the undisputed, unquestioned right to act upon others. The older complete strangers had absolutely no right to touch the younger woman with the hair in her face or to pull up the trousers of the youngsters. The old grandma acted within her collective rights to squash individualism, and and individualism that was within their legal rights. The younger did not act on their rights and tell the grandma to screw off.

    If you gave me examples of younger enforcing laws (for example, telling an ajosshi not to smoke), then I’d give you props. The “exceptions” you gave, however, proved the rule.

  • yuna_at_marmotshole

    I would say that I was a walking talking example of that exception, because no way I would take that shit.
    My example with the not being able to smoke in front of a non-Korean prof. outside of Korea shows, I still bear the mark of that system, but again like I wrote in another comment my mother was also a rebel in her own right, and taught me not to take shit from anybody, including the elders.
    Of course this doesn’t mean I would beat up the old people (like it happens abroad, or amongst the young reckless of Korea).
    It’s just old people acting however they want to. Another example being the one I gave of the dog-beaters.
    If they bring out Confucianism, I just laugh in the face.
    I would hope somewhere it’s written in their annals or anals, you must earn the respect, and not simply by aging.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Answer the question: do you know Confucianism is?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    They are rambunctious when others are being rambunctious, though I hardly see how that disproves my argument. I really haven’t got a clue where you people see this going wrong: There is a very strong correlation (even if there isnt actual causation) between Confucian societies and collectivism, with Korea being one of the most collectivist societies on the planet. Ive been here a while, pretty good while, and I am still flabbergasted how Koreans are unable (or unwilling) to do things alone: whatever they do, be that eat lunch, go hiking, have a coffee, or countless other activities, they always do it in groups and when they can, they do it in groups wearing uniforms (just look at the hikers)The togetherness in this country can be stifling, especially for a good-natured misanthrope like me: I really do want to have lunch by myself once in a while, and no, I do not need a posse to take my lunchtime walk with…yes, I really am fine doing things alone. So yes, Brandon (Brendon is a misspelling, isn’t it?), I do concede that they are rambunctious but I think Joe has it right – they are rambunctious (or sad, or angry, or excited, or whatever) when in groups. How anyone living here can deny this is really a mystery. The extreme level of nationalism here, the exclusion of anything outside of the mean, the need to fit in and follow the trend are all things that stem out of a very high level of collectivism. And while Confucianism probably is not the reason for the plastic surgery, the collectivism and the need to fit in probably is…and the Confucianism does not help to counteract this.

    Where Confucianism fits into this is probably a very complicated question, but as ignorant as I am of this ethical system, I would still love someone to actually come out with some quotes that show me where Confucianism promotes individualism over harmony within a rigid and patriarchal social system. Other than ad hominems thrown at me, no one has actually dug out any direct quotes. I’d be interested to see them.

    This takes me to my original point, if you can get past the innocent hyperbole: I still do not see anything good about Confucianism, and part of that is the fault of the people throwing mud around in this thread. Ive read the insults, but no actual argument. Yes, I probably should read 20 books on this particular ethical system, but the thread would be dead by then. Personally, I have a very strong negative reaction to groups. Did I mention I am a misanthrope? Beyond a small circle of people, the most I can say for others is that I (barely) tolerate them. When an ethical system, or a culture, tries to force me into dissolving myself in the collective, well, let’s just say that is something I do not like. What I see every day are people who have dissolved their identities in very rigidly structured groups: hiking clubs, political parties, the Nation, and they follow along. That isn’t for me.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    One, there is no appeal to authority in my previous comment, only logical deduction.

    Two, before the bench, only thing one is allowed to do is appealing to authority.

    Come back when you have something intelligent to say.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    Other than ad hominems thrown at me, no one has actually dug out any direct quotes. I’d be interested to see them

    You’re the one who’s making a broad, sweeping and thoroughly incorrect claim about a major philosophy without knowing anything about it. And the burden of proof is on people who know better to educate you?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Yes. Unless…you can’t. Which is something I can see being the case. Because if you could have provided me a quote, one quote, where my words are directly negated – not by YOU or Kuiwon – but by, oh I don’t know, maybe Confucius?, you probably would have saved yourself a whole lotta trouble. But its easier to throw out an insult and posture, eh TK?

  • wangkon936

    I don’t know how professional the ROK NCO and officer corp is. Although the Koreans have been training for something specific to a Korean conflict, it might be that the U.S. forces have more actual combat experience due to Iraq and Afghanistan. Their NCOs and officers would most certainly have more combat experience.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    I’m starting to think you haven’t got a clue either. If you did have a clue, a quote or two from the Confucian literature would suffice to prove I’m wrong. This continued line of questioning seems to me to be little more than empty posturing from you, which is nothing unusual. Again, Ive been here long enough to observe the strict social structure, the suffocating hierarchy, the group think, and that’s really all that matters. I couldn’t care less if the “great philosophy” of “Master Confucius” is identical or totally different from what is labelled as Confucianism and seen here. All that really matters is what is done.

  • http://www.askakorean.net/ The_Korean

    ㅋㅋㅋㅋ 뭐래냐 ㅂㅅ ㅅㅎ 졸라 개털리는 마당에서도 모른다는 얘기는 죽어도 못 하는구나. 그러고 살아라, 형이 심심할때 가끔 놀아줄게. 이거 읽지도 못 하지? 한국에 몇 년 살았다고? 형은 미국에 16살 때 와서 영어로 변호사한다. 너는 이거 발음이라도 할 수 있는지 모르겠네. 그래도 뭐 넌 뭐 안 창피하지?

  • dogbertt

    As so ably illustrated by Gen. Petraeus.

  • Pingback: Korean Gender Reader, December 8-14 | The Grand Narrative

  • SalarymaninSeoul

     Do you even know my age? 형?:) This is the funny thing, you are still refusing to provide any direct quotes from Confucian writings to contradict me. Don’t worry about whether I can or cannot read what you wrote or about how long Ive lived in Korea, this isn’t a courtroom and you don’t have me on the stand. You’re making yourself look like a fool, TK, making this personal. And PLEASE don’t think you’re something special for being an ambulance chaser, you’re worse than a used car salesman.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    You’re making yourself look like a fool, TK, making this personal.

    You may wish to reflect a bit more before accusing somebody of “making himself/herself” look like a fool” in this thread.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

     So I take it that post was substantive in nature and not a personal attack? I guess if one is a moderator’s pet like TK one can get away with ad hominems on this blog.

  • http://www.rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Substantive? Hmmm… like “making sweeping comments about one of the world’s major philosophical systems while clearly displaying little to no knowledge of said system” substantive? Referring to your Korean neighbors as “robots” and “borgs” substantive? In that case, you’re right—TK’s comment wasn’t “substantive.”

    Making shallow and ignorant observations—repeatedly—about a culture not your own tends to invite ad hominem attacks, and frankly, TK, bum, cm and the other ethnic Korean commenters here have been surprisingly reserved. Sadly, I think this is in large part due to them being long-time readers, hence they are simply used to Western commenters here making ignorant sweeping comments about their cultural heritage.

  • Matty099

    The question left out here is why is the Korean embassy in the Philippines even not scrutinized here. They are the ones giving “entertainment visas” to these girls. Does the Korean Embassy not equally scrutinize the employers and VALIDATE the jobs offered to these girls?

    A lot of these girls who end up in the Villes are duped in their “job description”. And most soldiers hook up with the “Juicy girls” imported from the Philippines and not factory workers imported from the PI.

    In a nutshell: the Korean Embassy in the Philippines is supporting human trafficking.

  • Matty099

    And this does not include Filipinas trafficked to serve Korean clientele! Now, I hope MBC also does a documentary on those who serve the Koreans, too! Ha. But I doubt they will.