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Korean-American suing Hooters for $150,000

A Korean-American in New York is suing Hooters for a racial slur he found on his take-out receipt (video here at CBS NEW YORK).

According to accessAtlanta - the racial slur was the word “Chinx”

Kisuk Cha claims that he was so upset that when he went home he threw away the food and called a lawyer.  The CBS report is quick to note that the Korean-American is a “new American citizen” and that he is now afraid to go into non-Asian restaurants.  He is seeking more than 150,000 dollars in damages.

And why should men have all the fun?  Women in Korea have their own version of Hooters – at least they did in 2011.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Too bad he’s not suing for a lost pair of pants!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson_v._Chung

    … or for a patent on a rectangle with rounded corners… ;)

  • SeoulFinn

    The next time I’m in the States and in desperate need of cash, I’ll make sure to visit a restaurant or a coffee shop. After leaving with a takeaway dinner or coffee, I’ll write Ruskie or Whitey or Swede on the container. Come on, someone must have done this already and laughed all the way to the bank!

    SeoulFinn

    PS. I have nothing against Russians, whites, or Swedes. *hug*

  • CactusMcHarris

    I wouldn’t have expected adjummas being served pork tenderloin by a codpieced Asian Adonis would be a thrill, but I think that just shows what I don’t know about women.

  • cm

    Chinx.

    I like the look of that one. It’s fancy.

    Is it really a slur if it’s spelled that way?

  • CactusMcHarris

    I thought it meant chin crossing, because you know how popular that is.

  • MrMao

    So it’s legal to call someone a kojaengi, jankae or shikamdoongi as long as you do it in Korea, but if it happens to a Korean- American, hello human rights claim.

  • CactusMcHarris

    #6,

    I don’t recognize those – I imagine they’re not-complimentary, though.

  • jk641

    @6,

    Well, it’s never okay to say it to someone’s face.
    That’s illegal in Korea too.

  • bumfromkorea

    So it’s legal to call someone a kojaengi, jankae or shikamdoongi as long as you do it in Korea, but if it happens to a Korean- American, hello human rights claim.

    Yeah, what’s that Korean-American’s problem? Doesn’t he understand that, since other people of his racial identity uses racial slur in a different country, he deserves to be called a chink?

    Moron.

  • MrMao

    So now that’s he a victim, he’s American? As soon as he wins the suit, you’ll be talking about what a great Korean hero he is.

    Under which Korean law is it illegal to call someone those things? If so, 99% of Koreans should be in jail.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    MrMao,

    Not jail. Fined.

  • JK

    To buminkorea @9: LOL!!!!!

  • MrMao

    I agree: 99% of Koreans should be fined. Endless amounts. Trillions.

  • MrMao

    Oh yeah, under which law?

  • MrMao
  • MrMao

    From above: ‘Korea has no law penalizing those making racist statements or engaging in activities instigating racial discrimination.’

  • enomoseki

    It’s america. You can sue anyone for any amount of money.

    WTF did you people expect?

  • MrMao
  • Bendrix

    There have been a few cases like this in America recently, and they all involve idiot fast food workers using slurs on the Asian customers’ receipts. I recall there was an incident at Starbucks, Papa John’s, and I think somewhere else reported in the news.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Is it just Korean-Americans or Korean nationals who get this kind of treatment, or have other Asians in America gotten it, too? It just seems every time an article like this breaks, it’s a KoAm involved.

  • Elowel

    I know what it feels like being called a chink, growing up in the States. As a recently naturalized Korean-American myself, I feel for the dude and he has every right and reason to be angry. But he’s gone too far with suing Hooters. It was just one dumb insensitive employee’s mistake, and she already resigned. It doesn’t make sense to me if he has to make all those other people pay the price.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Having just watched the video, two things come to mind:

    a) If Korea ever adopts an American-style “sue” culture, I’ll be a very rich man;

    b) If he should be suing somebody, it should be his barber.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    PS: This has to be some jackass American kid thing—an “Insult the Asian on the Receipt” game or something.

  • cm

    “It just seems every time an article like this breaks, it’s a KoAm involved.”

    I suspect it’s because Korean Americans are more assertive in demanding their rights, while the other Asian Americans will just forget about it and treat it as no big deal. You can look at this at two ways I suppose.

    1) Korean Americans are just whining bitches who should shut up, and learn to be cool like the other Asian Americans who don’t make mole hills out of a tiny ant hill.

    or

    2) If Korean Americans don’t speak up, and fall in line like the rest of them Asians, will the practice of writing racial slurs on customer receipts ever stop?

  • Yu Bum Suk

    “So it’s legal to call someone a kojaengi, jankae or shikamdoongi as long as you do it in Korea, but if it happens to a Korean- American, hello human rights claim.”

    Remember the Pakistani professor who sued an idiot who racially abused him (and his colleage) on a bus who successfully sued?

    Anyhow Mr Cha can’t be that new to America if the first thing he did was call his lawyer.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Yu Bum Suk,

    Immigrants are assimilating more quickly these days perhaps.

  • cm

    #25

    The Indian professor didn’t sue. He got the police involved and the man was charged for criminal offense of assault.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    cm, but wasn’t there also a monetary settlement? Here as you know the civil and criminal elements aren’t so seperated.

  • commander

    Is it just Korean-Americans or Korean nationals who get this kind of treatment, or have other Asians in America gotten it, too?

    First, the idiots who do this kind of stuff can’t distinguish between a Korean and Chinese anyway, so I would have to vote for the latter. Then the crowd can take care of the rest of the debate, whether some kind of behavior incited the racial slur. Kind of like the defense for a rapist that goes along the lines of: she was wearing a flirtatious skirt so she was begging to be raped.

  • gbnhj

    @22,

    Hell, we’ll all be rich. One of the great things about learning Korean is that you can finally understand what everyone’s saying. It’s also, by the way, one of the shitty things.

  • inkevitch

    Punitive damages is fucking stupid. While racial slurs are deplorable a signle employee writing something on a receipt that only two people will see does not cross the thresh-hold for discrimination. Time to harden up princess. And I agree Robert, that is aridiculous looking head. By the by, does his lawyer have a terrible speech impediment?

  • MrMao

    http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/11/27/bonojit-hussain-gets-1-million-won/

    - YBS, Mr Hussein was charged under a ‘criminal insult’ law and the court read racial slurs into the charge. Racial insults are not yet a crime in and of themselves, although, as Ben Wagner says, this ruling suggests they will be seen as such in future.

    Bum,

    I don’t think he deserves it; my point is that Koreans do very little to combat racism in their own country, but want full protection extended to those of their ‘racial identity’ (whatever that means) when they are in the West.

    Wangkon,

    It is hypocritical to decry Westerners as racist when Korea has no law on the books against racism. Which law protects non-Koreans in Korea against racial discrimination?

  • JW

    – YBS, Mr Hussein was charged under a ‘criminal insult’ law and the court read racial slurs into the charge. Racial insults are not yet a crime in and of themselves, although, as Ben Wagner says, this ruling suggests they will be seen as such in future.

    In and of themselves..what does this mean? The ruling makes clear that racial insult = criminal insult. In many western countries, a person to person racial insult does not provide grounds for a criminal case, as far as I know. So Korea does quite a bit more than western counties to combat racism in this case.

  • jk641

    Mr. Mao @ 32,

    Koreans do very little to combat racism in their own country, but want full protection extended to those of their ‘racial identity’ (whatever that means) when they are in the West.

    It’s because the West is more developed in this regard.
    The West has more stringent laws concerning this sort of thing, so it’s natural for Koreans (and any other minority) to sue against racism.
    I’m personally glad that he sued.

    As for racism in Korea, I must admit that there is plenty of it.
    But in recent years Koreans have definitely become more sensitive about the issue and are trying to fight it.

    Anti-racism laws just don’t just sprout out of nowhere.
    There has to be a sizable minority population, and naturally, they must demand changes and make their voices heard.

    There’s a Korean saying, “우는 아이에게 젖 준다”.
    Meaning that if you just stay silent and passive, you’ll never get anything.

    But Koreans are definitely becoming more sensitive about racism and trying to stamp it out.

  • jk641

    As for the damages the Korean guy is seeking, I think $150,000 is a pretty appropriate amount.
    I’d be curious how much of that money he is actually awarded.

    The only way they [Hooters] will take this seriously is if it hits them in the pocketbook.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    I’ve been called “Waygook” so many times, I’ve lost count, but it’s at least seven or eight. Can’t I sue somebody? I mean, being called a ‘gook’ . . . that’s bad, isn’t it? And then, there’s the time somebody called me “gayseki,” but I’m not even gay! I knew enough Korean to explain that I’m an ordinary “saramseki” — that that’s the only sort of “homo” I am. I’ve probably been called a lot of other things in Korean as well, but those two are the only ones I really understood. I’m sure my feelings would have been totally hurt, though, so I need a lot of money to overcome the trauma. I realize the West is more advanced in this legal area, but isn’t there some way to get me some money. Maybe Korea’s libel laws? Any advice on this? Thanks in advance!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • jk641

    jefferyhodges,

    Once again, you leave me agape and speechless.
    머엉~

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    JK641, thank you for the agape — Christian love is always welcome — but I need legal advice, some glossolalia rather than speechlessness.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • enomoseki

    At least, you don’t see koreans kill waygooks based on their skin color.

    If they start doing that, then you people have bigger problem than whatever you already have at this moment.

  • jk641

    Oh Lordy..

  • gbnhj

    Yes, killing people based on their skin color is bad – very bad. No killing people based on their skin color today, everyone.

  • cm

    “As for the damages the Korean guy is seeking, I think $150,000 is a pretty appropriate amount.”

    Oh come on…! How about accepting the apology from the restaurant and leave it at that? The bad press alone, generated by this is enough punishment.

  • αβγδε

    This isn’t a personal issue – as in, a KA going into a Hooters and then being made fun of for, say, the gap between his front teeth or the color of his bow tie, or his hygeine.

    Hooters produced a racial slur. That’s a big social problem. It’s not a petty one.

    I must say, I applaud the guy for doing what he’s doing. There’s been enough instances of this bullcrap where people think they can get away with doing to Asian Americans what they’d never dare do to others. How about writing “nigger” on a receipt and let’s see how well that goes down and let’s see how many of you castigate a black person for making any sort of big deal about that offense.

    What doesn’t sit right to me about this case is that the lady was not fired. She was allowed to “resign”. She ought to have been fired.

    Anyway, this isn’t the first time I’ve seen a story like this at The Marmot’s Hole. Wasn’t there other cases like this one? I remember reading about others, other cases that have involved other Asian Americans, not just Korean Americans.

  • slim

    I recall at least 3 similar cases like this, all involving fast food chains or franchises. If it takes lawsuits to make it stop, I say go for it. Hard to imagine the lack of common sense, let alone courtesy, that drives somebody in the SERVICE SECTOR to do shit like his.

  • DLBarch

    CM @ 42 gets it.

    $150,000? Try zero. Unless Cha can show that Hooter’s knew what its employee was doing and allowed it to continue, or that it had a pattern of previous racial slurs that it did nothing to contain, this case will either be dismissed at summary judgment or settled for a nominal sum for sheer nuisance value.

    (This is one of the reasons, no doubt, that the restaurant immediately searched its own past receipts…to see if this kind of thing was routine and ignored.)

    Meanwhile, alpha/beta @ 43 is correct that this is only the latest in a string of similar cases…all of which were settled quietly out of court, or, in the few that went to trial, had their jury awards thrown out by the court.

    To repeat, employers are NOT automatically liable for the rogue, unauthorized transgressions of their employees. They CAN be, but plaintiffs like Cha have to show a lot more than just a racist reference on a receipt to sustain any discrimination claim under Title II.

    DLB

  • jk641

    cm,

    That’s the whole point.
    It wouldn’t have made the press, if he hadn’t sued the joint for $150,000.

  • inkevitch

    People insult other people everyday, it happens all the time. If everyone who was insulted was awarded $150,000 or felt that it was worth suing for the courts would be filled with these complaints. The only reason that this has any traction is that it was written and therefore there is evidence.

    Is racial intolerance still present? Yes. Is it better than it has ever been? Yes. Does more work need to be done? Yes. Is there ever going to be a point when people don’t insult each other for diofferences whether they be race, weight, aesthetics, profession. No.

    In medicine all the other specialities insult orthopaedics as being meathead carpenters that can’t read an ECG the right way up. Should they be allowed to sue for discrimination. This is something that is joked about in morning handovers the world round.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0S5EN7-RtI (for Americans/Koreans registrar=resident and anaesthethesia=anaesthesiology)

  • bumfromkorea

    I don’t think he deserves it; my point is that Koreans do very little to combat racism in their own country, but want full protection extended to those of their ‘racial identity’ (whatever that means) when they are in the West.

    Again, you’re assigning a collective guilt generated by individuals to another individual who, for all you know, has nothing to do with whatever you’re accusing him/them of.

    In other words, quit backpedaling. No one is buying it.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Where is the proof that the person suing didnt write it on the receipt?

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Or rather, where is the proof it was written by an employee?

  • bumfromkorea

    I don’t know if you’ve been to Hooters (or any other food/bar establishments in America), but chances are, the receipts get printed out.

    Here’s a picture of it: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/769004/thumbs/o-HOOTERS-RECEIPT-570.jpg?4

  • bumfromkorea

    So, unless you’re accusing the guy of sneaking up to the counter, change the label on his order to “chinx”, and then pretend to get outraged…

  • cm

    cm,

    That’s the whole point.
    It wouldn’t have made the press, if he hadn’t sued the joint for $150,000.

    Well, are you sure about that? In another case involving another Korean American woman, same thing happened last year, and she never sued. She put the story up in her Facebook, and the story made a big splashing news, forcing the restaurant to apologize to her. It was bad press for the restuarant, and I’m sure they lost a few customers. That’s a fitting punishment in my opinion. This 150K is just plain overkill. It will only make the one who’s suing a person who’s not really a victim, but an opportunist who wants to make easy money exploiting the system. It does nothing to combat racism.

  • broona

    For whatever reason, this man refused to sweep this incident under the rug. I say good for him. Nobody likes being called a chink or chinx or jap or gook. If he has the time, resources, energy and whatever else to fight his battle, then good for him.

  • enomoseki

    Asians are #1 target for racism across any countries, realistic or in media form.

    And people bitch at Asians for being racist???

    Luly luz.

  • Elowel

    I’m with DLBarch at 45 and cm at 42.

    @52, that must have been what happened.

    @54 Though I disagree with his decision to sue the entirety of Hooters, I admire his willingness to stand up for it. I don’t ever want to take shit like that while I’m in the States myself.

    While it seems overboard to sue Hooters, I hope this sends a message to people that calling an Asian a chink or “chinx” isn’t cool. We don’t deserve to be harassed, just as foreigners in Korea don’t deserve it either.

  • Arghaeri

    Asians are #1 target for racism across any countries, realistic or in media form.

    Any countries! The number one target! Seriously! Luly luz!

    The number one, outside Africa is blacks, including asia. The number two in asia is however other asians! Go figure!

  • Arghaeri

    moes the pity :-(

  • babotaengi

    @ Hodges

    I know how you feel, sir. I’ve never been called a “homo” or a “gook” (that I’m aware of), but it seems like nearly every time I go out to walk the dog, I get some children pointing at me and calling me a “mongo”. I was wondering where they were getting it from, and then I realized it was the parents – they were even pulling their little toddlers aside to point me out and inform them that I’m a “mong-mongi”!

    Where do THEY get off calling ME, a Caucasian, “mongo”? Korean racism is not only ubiquitous, but also quite puzzling.

  • broona

    Babo, were you consuming any type of soup when you were called “gook?” There may be something to that. Just trying to clear any confusion there.

  • broona

    *babotaengi*

  • robert neff

    I am sure the early American military members were amused when confronted by a group of Koreans cheering

    “Me gook, me gook”

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Babotaengi (#55), we should note the possibility that you might resemble Alex Karras and that the children and their parents were simply mistaking you for the well-known movie star, who passed away only yesterday, bless his soul, so there shouldn’t be any more mistaking you for Mongo.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Creo69

    $150,000? Is this the going rate for the Starbucks Batista calling you a naughty name these days?

    That Korean (Korean American isn’t he?) “legend” KT or TK (whatever his name was) rapper let go on entire audience of white people calling them “honkies.” They didn’t even get a ticket refund.

    I guess racism is only racism when it is directed at someone other than white folks.

  • eujin

    Babotaengi, is it only when walking the dog that you get kids calling you “mongo” and their parents pointing out the “mong-mongi”? Or does it happen without the dog as well?

  • babotaengi

    Well, frankly, since I realized that every man, woman and infant child is calling me a mongoloid, the only time I dare venture outdoors without the cover of darkness these days is to walk the dog – lest he chew all my furniture to bits out of restlessness. So, hard to answer your question, but he was definitely with me the first and last time I was pointed at and referred to as a “mongo mongi”.

  • babotaengi

    @Broona

    As I said, never been called a “gook”, that I know of. They really call Caucasians “gook” too?? This sure is one topsy-turvy place!

  • bumfromkorea

    Creo, the lupus of Expat consciousness.

  • jk641

    cm @ 53,

    Maybe Mr. Cha (the victim) doesn’t do facebook or twitter.
    He got angry, so he said “I’m gonna sue them.”

    BTW, the woman who posted her story on Twitter never expected that it would become huge. She didn’t want the publicity.
    So she clearly wasn’t as upset about it as Mr. Cha is.

    Really, $150,000 isn’t overkill.
    In America people routinely sue for millions of dollars in damages.

  • jk641

    Creo @ 64,

    Bad analogy.
    At least Tiger JK (the Korean rapper) felt that he had been provoked by some in the audience.
    What did Mr. Cha do to offend Hooters? (wear a bad haircut?)

  • MrMao

    Bum,

    I am not backpedaling- assigning collective guilt is what Koreans do best so I always do it when I argue with Koreans (which is quite often). In fact, Mr Cha’s lawyer is using the actions of one former employee to try to assign collective guilt to the entire restaurant chain which, while sexist, does not seem to be overly racist. You’d better be careful or I’ll sue you for what Cho Seung Hui did to all those white people in Virginia.

    JW Marriott,

    No, the ruling does not make it clear that racial insult = criminal insult. The court here looked at all the circumstances of the offence and decided in favour of Mr Hussein. They likely considered his drunkenness, his usage of violence and his refusal to stop despite the attempts of the other passengers to restrain him as factors weighing against him and decided to make an example of him. There is still no statute that explicitly says that racial insults are illegal, just a court ruling that may or may not set precedent for future cases.

    enomoseki,

    Koreans never kill foreigners because they are foreign? See below:

    http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2009/05/the-murders-of-foreigners-in-korea.html

  • MrMao

    JW,

    by ‘him’ in the above I mean the accused, not Mr Hussein.

    Enomoseki,

    I can’t speak of any foreigners I know who were murdered in Korea (off the top of my head), but I certainly know a few white women who were sexually assaulted by Koreans in Itaewon. One had her home broken into and was raped in her own bedroom, one was bundled into a limo and beaten black and blue before being thrown out while the car was in motion on the Namsan ring road. The former left Korea as a result, the latter waited for her broken nose to heal and stayed. Were these hate crimes? I don’t know, but they don’t make me feel warm and fuzzy towards Korea. Oh my lawd, now I’m assigning collective guilt based on the actions of one individual. Why would you think that Koreans are the only people on Earth who don’t commit racially-motivated crimes of violence? Do we have to watch that B.R. Myers ‘The Purest Race’ video one more time?

  • JW

    MrMao

    The court ruled that racial insult falls under the category of criminal insult and that the perp was indeed guilty of racial insult and thereby criminal insult. That’s what I meant by racial insult = criminal insult. So that would make it very clear that racial insult IS criminal insult, regardless of the fact that explicit laws regarding racial insult is not provided. So again, many western countries do not have laws outlawing racist behavior of this type, and yet Korea does. Which apparently you don’t want to acknowledge because you seem to really really hate Korea.

  • MrMao

    That’s what the court ruled in this case. It does not guarantee that this will always be the case. A statute would. You might try the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which in section 15 prohibits discrimination on the grounds of race; national or ethnic origin; colour; religion; gender; age; and blah blah blah. Is there an equivalent statute in Korea, or is there just a ruling? I don’t hate Korea, I hate hypocrisy. I appreciate Korean movements towards eliminating discrimination like the ruling in the Hussein case and the proposal in the National Assembly to enact a law against discrimination, and I understand that this takes a long time. As it stands, Korean demands for racial equality are not backed up by their actions at home.

  • JW

    What “korean demands” are you referring to? You realize that if you can make decent money off a case like this it makes sense to sue regardless of any legitimacy, right? Are you referring to some general movement started by koreans overseas? If there is i’d like to know.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    That’s what the court ruled in this case. It does not guarantee that this will always be the case.

    Actually, it does guarantee that. It is what is referred to as “judicial precedent,” which is considered valid law until overturned by a higher court.

    You might try the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which in section 15 prohibits discrimination on the grounds of race; national or ethnic origin; colour; religion; gender; age; and blah blah blah. Is there an equivalent statute in Korea . . . ?

    The most basic Internet search would have told you that the answer is “yes.”

    As it stands, Korean demands for racial equality are not backed up by their actions at home.

    The demand here is made by a Korean American, whose home is the United States.

  • JW

    The National Human Rights Commission of Korea (NHRCK)’s mandate is to investigate human rights violations perpetrated by central and local governments or detention and protection centers and to provide remedies to the victims. The NHRCK is authorized to conduct on-site investigations of these facilities. The Commission also has jurisdiction over discrimination by private entities and organizations on the basis of sex, religion, disability, age, social status, nationality, race, appearance, marital status, pregnancy, family status, skin color, idealogy, political orientation, sexual orientation, medical history, etc.

    Why this looks to be an equivalent statute. Mr Mao, what do you have to say to this?

    http://www.korea4expats.com/article-national-human-rights-commission-korea.html

  • Arghaeri

    Actually, it does guarantee that. It is what is referred to as “judicial precedent,” which is considered valid law until overturned by a higher court.

    Really, a minor court in korea has the power to set binding precedent, that would be most unusual in many jurisdictions. Are you saying that korean law provides this?

  • MrMao

    thekorean

    - By Korean demands I mean those of Mr Cha, his Korean lawyer, you, JW, Bumfromkorea and the rest of you ‘racially identifiable’ bandwagoners. But not Hines Ward because his mother had sex with a black man- unless he wins the Super Bowl again. It is NOT always ethical to sue when you know you can make money, you ambulance chaser. I suspect his lawyer knows this and that is why he is so aggressive on camera: his argument holds no water and he knows it. This decision could be applied in subsequent case law or it could be distinguished in a case that had a different fact pattern that did not involve drunkenness and assault on public transit. Under stare decisis, it has legal weight but it’s no guarantee that all racial insults are now criminal insults. I’m still looking for that statute, all I see are bills and proposals. Ratifying a UN Convention is not the same as incorporating it into domestic law. You say he’s American? But what about his ‘racial identity’? What about the Minjok? Your Dodeok teacher would be ashamed.

    JW Marriot at Kangnam Bus Terminal

    - The NHRC is not a court of law. I read the act and it does talk about national and ethnic origin, but what are the penalties for violating this act? This act is the enabling act of the Commission, not criminal law. The accused in the Hussein case wasn’t tried at the NHRC, he was tried in court and the circumstances were crowbarred into a charge of criminal insult. If there were such a statute, why wasn’t it used to prosecute the accused in the Hussein case? Is the Korea Times wrong? ‘Korea has no law penalizing those making racist statements or engaging in activities instigating racial discrimination.’

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/05/123_111396.html

  • JW

    Yes, if you haven’t noticed all this time while being a regular MH reader, then you are quite an idiot for not recognizing that Korea Times is not exactly a paragon of journalistic standards. You definitely deserve to be called a fucking moron on that score, and I’m sure your raciall identifiable band-wagoners here at MH would agree… The NHRC as far as I can tell is very much the an equivalent or near equivalent given that they hold “jurisdiction” over discrimination issues. Did you look into whether the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms section 15 is *criminal* law? I highly doubt that it is, considering that discrimination in the US is not a criminal offense.

  • MrMao

    The Charter is not criminal law, but its concepts have informed criminal law. The relevant provision in the Canadian Criminal Code is s. 319(2): “[This offence is committed by] Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group.” The leading case is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Keegstra

    Where is the analogous provision in Korean law? As for the Korea Times, it’s not my fault your heimat has very few journalistic standards. And as far I can tell, they are [for once] correct to say this. If the NHRC has jurisdiction over these matters, why wasn’t he tried there? And I’m not swearing at you, why are you swearing at me?

  • MrMao

    By the way, there are differences between Canadian and American law. This is one of them.

  • JW

    That Canadian criminal law as far as I can see is no better than the South Korean criminal insult law which as we know includes racial insults. It’s all based on legal precedent.

    NHRC has legal jurisdiction and therefore any legal entity in Korea has the power to invoke the NHRC Act to inform their prosecution of law. That much seems obvious.

    I only swear at people who deserve the treatment.

  • MrMao

    So why wasn’t it invoked in the Hussein case? Why did they have to fit it into a different category of charge? There is no statute outlawing racial discrimination in Korea, although case law suggests that the courts are beginning to see this as a problem. Anyway, Hooters sucks and so do its customers. He went to a sexist restaurant and got racist treatment. Boo hoo.

  • MrMao

    Listen, Ben Wagner is a real lawyer. Even he doesn’t go so far as to say that there is yet a Korean law against racial discrimination, just a strong suggestion that the criminal insult law will now be interpreted in this way. Have the bills in the National Assembly been turned into law yet? I don’t think so, but I could be wrong. The Canadian law is ‘better’ because it explicitly outlaws racial discrimination. Korea has no such law. See below for Ben Wagner’s comments:

    Ben_Wagner November 28, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    .
    10 Ben_Wagner November 28, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    @6 – I think you could if the court found it to be an “insult” under the Korean Criminal Code (제 311조 (모욕재)). That’s all that’s happened here despite all the hub-bub.

    I’m not sure I like the idea of having a law against calling someone an S.O.B. (scratch that, I don’t like it), but if it is actionable then to argue calling someone an Arab/Black S.O.B. couldn’t be punished because Korea doesn’t have any laws punishing racial discrimination doesn’t make much sense. . .

    While each of the many news reports on the incident included slightly different details, most of them focused on the alleged “hate speech” uttered by Park and the failure of Korean law to punish it. As Yonhap put it:

    After the incident, Hussain decided to take action against the man by filing a racial discrimination suit. He soon found, however, that no explicit law against racial discrimination exists in South Korea and thus the charge could not be applied. “When I found out there is no such category on racial discriminatory practices, I thought that racism is more serious and deeper rooted in the society,” Hussain said. “Without proper law, foreigners don’t have many options but to put up with such situations.”

    However, while it is true that a specific “racial discrimination suit” was unavailable, we’ve seen that Park’s actions did not go as unpunished as the many reports implied. Park was charged “with criminal insult [mo yuk chae] on the theory that racist language can constitute such” and if convicted, “he could face up to one year in prison or a fine of 2 million won ($1,640).” [link]. (That “모욕” would be art. 311 mentioned above). And now we have a decision and Park’s been “fined 1 million won ($855) Friday for insulting” the professor.

    So while the Hussain case has been put forward to show that “Korean law does not recognize racial discrimination as a crime,” (“한국 법체계가 인종차별을 범죄로 인정하지 않아”) there is a strong argument that it demonstrates the opposite proposition. Indeed, not only was Park indicted, fined and roundly condemned in the press, but as a result of the case two members of the National Assembly announced independent plans to introduce bills with further measures to ensure against discrimination on the basis of race or nationality. (If it happens this would be the third try.)

    That is a big result for someone being racially insulted and way beyond what would happen in most countries, despite the Korean press’s naive assumptions otherwise. (I saw one report that mentioned the “US Civil Rights Act of 1964″ as prohibiting such a racial act. That’s certainly not the case.)

    I think what happened here is that Korean prosecutors struggled to use the laws on the books to punish something they wanted to punish, such an approach is hardly unusual and (in my opinion) praiseworthy. I see this case as similar to a US race case from the 6os. (Fisher v. Carrousel Motor Hotel 424 S.W.2d 627 (Tex. 1967)). A NASA rocket scientist who happened to be Black was attending a convention in Texas. While at dinner with his colleagues the manager of the restaurant came up and shouted that a “Negro could not be served” and snatched the plate out of his hands. Even though the whole case was about that racial insult, it wasn’t actionable since you couldn’t punish it just as speech (or ‘insult’) – however hateful. Instead the case brought on a physical battery charge even though the manager never touched the scientist (just the plate) and the scientist said he was never in fear and suffered absolutely no physical pain. In the end the scientist won his “battery case” got a nominal recovery (like Hussain), but the point of course was never the money or the “battery.”

    I think something similar is going on here, it’s not about the “insult” per se. Hussain said “his goal was to make this issue public to spark a national debate on racial acceptance and tolerance.” [link] That seemed to have worked. It’s a shame that Hussain gets so much flack for bringing what appears to be minor issue when he admits as much himself. He mentions that in conversations with migrant workers they told him: “This is nothing. The media are taking it up because you are a research professor. We face much more serious situations.” [link] He agrees and says he brought the case for others who wouldn’t be able to. He said: “Most of the time, they face much worse situations than mine. They cannot complain for two reasons. One, they might lose their jobs. Two, (they think) ‘even if I go to the police, nothing will happen.’”

    If the Hussain case is to be criticized for anything then I suggest it is for pretty much ignoring Ms. Han Ji-seon, who in addition to being insulted as bad or worse than Hussain (she was called a whore) was kicked and hit in the chest in the bargain. (Some limited discussion in womennews.co.kr). I would argue that as important as it is for Korea to have a dialog on race, it shouldn’t take precedence over the issue of violence to Korean women. I suspect Prof. Hussain would agree.

  • JW

    Wagner says “there is a strong argument that [Hussein's case] demonstrates [Korean law does recognize racial discrimination as a crime]”

    If there is such a strong argument I don’t know why Wagner doesn’t just go ahead and say that that’s his belief, because it is the obvious conclusion. In any case, Mr Mao, the fact of the matter is, in Canada, if someone were to racially insult you one on one, you cannot as far as I can see convict him of a crime. In Korea, you can. That’s a pretty BIG difference.

  • MrMao

    It’s not obvious, it’s up to the judge in the next case and you don’t know what they will say. In Korea, you probably could charge someone with racial insult. In Canada, you probably couldn’t (although there are public order offences that are so broad that a racial insult could perhaps be made to fit into them). You’d only be able to do so if you were inciting violence against a group. This is also true, and even more strictly applied, in the US under the test in Brandenburg v Ohio on ‘imminent legal action.’ Frankly, I don’t see how this Korean restriction on free speech will ever hold up because it will catch millions of people. Are the courts going to outlaw anger? I have a lot of reservations about the Canadian law too, but I’m glad there aren’t neo-Nazis holding rallies outside my house like there might be in Michigan. The free speech debate is endless, much like this thread. Mr Cha was mistreated, but unless he can prove that this was a practice that the management knew about and ignored I think he is unlikely to win. But just like Mr Hussein, perhaps he is trying to prove a point.

  • JW

    Everything is up to the next judge. No behavior that’s accused of being criminal can *automatically* be deemed to be criminal. This is obvious. The judge’s primary goal in most cases is to judge on the the validity of the facts, and because it has already been decided that racial insult can be construed as criminal insult, the only thing up in the air in future cases is whether the facts fit the crime. Unless of course a higher court overturns the obviously true proposition that racial insult can be construed as criminal insult as defined in Korean law.

  • broona

    #62, that’s actually how the term “gook” came to be, except I don’t know that the Koreans were cheering.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Really, a minor court in korea has the power to set binding precedent, that would be most unusual in many jurisdictions. Are you saying that korean law provides this?

    “Binding precedent” is a term of art that means a specific thing — which is why I did not use that term. But obviously, case law is case law. It is a legal authority, no matter which court it comes from. That is a common principle for just about any legal system in the world, including Korea’s.

    By Korean demands I mean those of Mr Cha, his Korean lawyer, you, JW, Bumfromkorea and the rest of you ‘racially identifiable’ bandwagoners. . . .

    Right, “the Korean Race” with its incredible mind-meld through bloodline that transcends space and time, relentlessly seeking racial advantage. Your MO never changes, does it?

  • palladin9479

    @89,

    It was the Korean war vets who went on to fight in Vietnam who spread the slur “gook”. It’s proper meaning is part of identifying someone’s nationality “guk”. Kinda funny how a cultural misunderstanding turned into racial slurs that lasted decades and are used against people not remotely connected to the words origination.

    Still the offended person is being a bit silly at best and down right greedy at worst. Just laugh at someone being an ignorant idiot and continue on with the day.

  • MrMao

    I wasn’t the one who started talking about ‘racial identity.’ It was…a Korean.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    I wasn’t the one who started talking about ‘racial identity.’ It was…a Korean.

    You’re the one who lumped together all Koreans across vast gaps of space and time, and you disclaim talking about racial identity. On top of that, you had the nerve to say you hate hypocrisy! So typical.

  • Wedge

    You guys are wrong on the origin of “gook.” Eugene Sledge refers to a old Okinawa woman as gook (June 1945) in “With the Old Breed” and Leon Uris refers to natives of the island of Tarawa as gooks (Nov. 1943) in “Battle Cry.” The origin definitely predates American involvement in Korea.

  • robert neff

    I was just joking with mine….perhaps later I will go back and try to find all the racist comments that early Westerners used in Korea.

  • bumfromkorea

    I am not backpedaling- assigning collective guilt is what Koreans do best so I always do it when I argue with Koreans (which is quite often).

    By Korean demands I mean those of Mr Cha, his Korean lawyer, you, JW, Bumfromkorea and the rest of you ‘racially identifiable’ bandwagoners.

    I wasn’t the one who started talking about ‘racial identity.’ It was…a Korean.

    Uh huh.

  • SalarymaninSeoul

    Just why should there be LAWS against racism?

  • Creo69

    “Bad analogy.
    At least Tiger JK (the Korean rapper) felt that he had been provoked by some in the audience.
    What did Mr. Cha do to offend Hooters? (wear a bad haircut?)”

    Ahh…so if someone hurts your feelings (king size ego in the case of the Korean rapper) you can then start tossing around racial slurs? Thanks…that makes perfect sense :)

  • Arghaeri

    “Binding precedent” is a term of art that means a specific thing — which is why I did not use that term

    Sorry TK, you made not have used the word binding but thats precisely what your answer implied.

    See statement made,

    That’s what the court ruled in this case. It does not guarantee that this will always be the case.

    and note your response

    Actually, it does guarantee that. It is what is referred to as “judicial precedent,” which is considered valid law until overturned by a higher court.

    You clearly rebutted that it was guaranteed to followed by the lower courts, i.e. binding.

    Your are now retracting that claim, by acknowledung it is not binding precedent and there it is not at all guaranteed that another court case will follow it.

    There is plenty of precedent that case law in lower courts is not binding and not always followed, i.e it is in way guaranteed that another similar case or even identical will come to the same judgement.

    Indeed my understanding, perhaps completely wrong that Korea laws historically have been vaguely framed precisely to allow some flexibilty to local for want of a better word “magistrates”.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    You clearly rebutted that it was guaranteed to followed by the lower courts, i.e. binding.

    No, I did not say anything about “lower courts.” Again, “binding precedent” means a specific thing – a precedent from the higher court of the same jurisdiction that the lower court must follow. It is definitionally impossible for a District Court to issue a “binding precedent,” because the District Court is the lowest court.

    But “binding precedent” is not the only precedent that exists in a judicial system. Recall that the term I used was “judicial precedent.” Judicial precedent means case law, which may be issued by any court. And case law has legal authority that subsequent courts must respect. If, say, Daejeon District Court was looking at another instance of criminal insult involving racist language, DDC could not ignore the existing precedent of SDC and decide willy-nilly that criminal insult law does not cover racist language. DDC must address SDC’s precedent and explain why the case before DDC is similar or different. If DDC cannot come up with a valid reason why the case before it is different from SDC’s precedent, DDC must follow SDC’s precedent, even though SDC’s precedent is not, and cannot be, a “binding precedent.” (Because DDC and SDC are sister courts.)

  • cm

    I’m surprised it’s a criminal offense in South Korea to call someone a racial slur, and that anyone could get charged for it.

    Thinking about this, it may not be such a bad law which could stamp out public racial harassment. You shouldn’t call anyone a slur in public anyway.

  • Creo69

    ” When Asian women in general (Japanese gyarusans might be an exception) get plastic surgery, they have other Asian, often Korean, singers or actress in mind, not Caucasian celebrities.”

    You can’t defame a person’s character in South Korea by law either. How well does that law work? How about just not being so sensitive instead of clogging the court system with people with hurt feelings and bruised egos.

  • Creo69

    Opps…sometimes the clipboard don’t on my Galaxy Tab doesn’t work the way it was intended to.

  • Creo69

    ” Thinking about this, it may not be such a bad law which could stamp out public racial harassment. You shouldn’t call anyone a slur in public anyway.”

    You can’t defame a person’s character in South Korea by law either. How well does that law work? How about just not being so sensitive instead of clogging the court system with people with hurt feelings and bruised egos.

    Worked better that time:-)

  • MrMao

    So now a bunch of hyphenated Americans are telling me that I should stop lumping them in with the rest of the minjok. Logic much?

  • bumfromkorea

    MrMao, missing the point and making an ass out of himself.

    As usual.

  • MrMao

    Koreans (or are you American? Get it straight, will ya?) resorting to personal attacks and bad language. As usual (see Bonojit Hussein case).

  • bumfromkorea

    So now a bunch of hyphenated Americans are telling me that I should stop lumping them in with the rest of the minjok. Logic much?

    Koreans (or are you American? Get it straight, will ya?) resorting to personal attacks and bad language. As usual (see Bonojit Hussein case).

    Notice, it’s not ‘bumfromkorea’, the individual. It’s the ‘Koreans’.

    I hate hypocrisy.

    Indeed.

  • TheKorean2

    America and West invented the racist slurs against other people. Not Korea. Big difference. This man wants justice, let him have it.

  • MrMao

    Is that you talking, Bum, or is it your racial identity? He can have his justice as soon as the South Koreans (or whoever the hell the people in this video are) stop picketing the Chinese consulate in Vancouver:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKZmjGAovas

  • enomoseki

    Don’t really care if he wins or not. He’s not a korean, just another gyopo.

  • bumfromkorea

    He can have his justice as soon as the South Koreans (or whoever the hell the people in this video are) stop picketing the Chinese consulate in Vancouver

    And that’s yet another example of your idiocy.

  • Arghaeri

    No, I did not say anything about “lower courts.”

    The topic is a judgement and therefore precedent of the district court, and your “guarantee” that that precedent must be “considered valid law” until overturned by a higher court. As such, we are clearly talking about the applicability of precedent in the lower courts, and I see no purpose to your obfuscation.

    Again, “binding precedent” means a specific thing – a precedent from the higher court of the same jurisdiction that the lower court must follow. It is definitionally impossible for a District Court to issue a “binding precedent,” because the District Court is the lowest court.

    Indeed it does, which is precisely why and is precisely why I used the term in questioning your “guarantee” that the precedent in this case must be followed in subsequent lower court cases.

    Really, a minor court in korea has the power to set binding precedent, that would be most unusual in many jurisdictions. Are you saying that korean law provides this?

    By the way, I am not at all sure that it is “by definition” impossible, since the definition of what is “binding precedent” may well vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from time to time. The generally accepted definition is simply “a decided case that a court must follow even though it is considered to have been wrongly decided”, it will be for the local jurisprudence to decide whether in that jurisdiction courts of the same level can bind themselves.

    But “binding precedent” is not the only precedent that exists in a judicial system. Recall that the term I used was “judicial precedent.”

    Indeed, but since I am the one who raised the distinction, I am not at all clear why you feel the need to confirm that distinction to me.

    Judicial precedent means case law, which may be issued by any court. And case law has legal authority that subsequent courts must respect. If, say, Daejeon District Court was looking at another instance of criminal insult involving racist language, DDC could not ignore the existing precedent of SDC and decide willy-nilly that criminal insult law does not cover racist language.

    I am not at all clear where I have said, inferred, or even implied the courts may ignore precedent “willy-nilly”. I raised the distinction of “binding precedent” since you in “guaranteeing” the same result implicitly inferred that the precedent in this case was binding rather than persuasive.

    Quite simply, in common law jurisdictions under the principle of stare decisis the lower courts are obliged to respect precedent set in previous judgements, however unless the precedent is binding they are not obliged (“guaranteed”) to reach the same decision, if they decide the case was wrongly decided.

    This could occur for various reasons, one being for example that the principle of stare decisis does not typically play as strong a part in civil law jurisdictions, with reasoning in cases often brief citing on occasions little more than the applicable code.

    Even, in common law jurisdictions a reference in the judgement to the racial slander may not have been the ratio decidendi the case having been decided on other points. Have you even reviewed the courts judgment in this case to examine the reasoning behind their final judgment, and whether it would in fact apply to a similar case involving perhaps only racial slander?

    Similarly, even in common law jurisdictions a ratio decendi in a previous case may not be followed if the decision itself was with reference to other uncited or unconsidered law or precedent clearly incorrect. Also where the decision was based on a point of law that the court assumed to be correct without full consideration by the court, and that point of law is now after due consideration found to have been incorrectly applied.

    Now of course, yours is the claim that the district court is now “guaranteed” to find racial slander to be criminal assault in future, and since I am not in a position to directly contradict that position in Korean law and jurisdiction, I will be most happy if you are able to cite relevant authority in Korean law, supporting and confirming that claim.

    Unfortunately so far the only thing you appear to have confirmed is that decisions of the lower courts are not binding, and that your claim that the decision is “guaranteed” to be followed is in doubt.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    The topic is a judgement and therefore precedent of the district court, and your “guarantee” that that precedent must be “considered valid law” until overturned by a higher court. As such, we are clearly talking about the applicability of precedent in the lower courts . . .

    No we’re not. We are talking about the legal force of precedent between sister courts. Remember, you first questioned whether there is any legal force in a case law issued by the lowest court. And I am saying yes, other lowest courts must address that precedent, facing the same situation.

    I am not at all clear where I have said, inferred, or even implied the courts may ignore precedent “willy-nilly”. . . . Quite simply, in common law jurisdictions under the principle of stare decisis the lower courts are obliged to respect precedent set in previous judgements, however unless the precedent is binding they are not obliged (“guaranteed”) to reach the same decision, if they decide the case was wrongly decided.

    Sounds like your dispute is centered around the word “guaranteed.” Seems like to you, “guaranteed” must involve “binding precedent.” I don’t see why that is the case — to me, it makes no sense to equate an ordinary parlance with a legal term of art.

    When MrMao said “That’s what the court ruled in this case. It does not guarantee that this will always be the case.”, that’s exactly when he said the courts may ignore precedents willy-nilly — he was saying one court may decide one thing facing situation X, and the next court may change its mind facing the same situation X. As you and I know, that’s not the case.

  • Arghaeri

    Arghaeri

    The topic is a judgement and therefore precedent of the district court, and your “guarantee” that that precedent must be “considered valid law” until overturned by a higher court. As such, we are clearly talking about the applicability of precedent in the lower courts . . .

    TK

    No we’re not. We are talking about the legal force of precedent between sister courts.

    You are fiully aware that the District Courts (jibang beopwon) together comprise the courts of first instance, i.e, the lower courts, for both criminal and civil cases in Korea.

    Hence, I really am unclear on what point it is your trying to make since the sister
    district courts together comprise the lower courts and accordingly we are both talking about the force of precedent over the same courts.

  • Arghaeri

    Remember, you first questioned whether there is any legal force in a case law issued by the lowest court.

    No I did not, I questioned whether there was any binding force in case law from the lowest courts, i.e district courts., that would “guarantee” the same result.

    For the second time now I will requote that question for you.

    Really, a minor court in korea has the power to set binding precedent, that would be most unusual in many jurisdictions. Are you saying that korean law provides this?

  • Arghaeri

    . And I am saying yes, other lowest courts must address that precedent, facing the same situation.

    That, as has been already clearly explained is not what is being questioned, what is being questioned is your claim that in addressing said precedent the court is bound to come to the same result even if it comsiders the previous case to have been wrongly decided or alternately decided on different ratio.

    I note you have not answered my question as to whether in making your “guarantee” you even troubled to see if reference to racist slander was part of the ratio in the decision in that case and therefore forming a precedent.

  • Arghaeri

    Sounds like your dispute is centered around the word “guaranteed.”

    Uhm, Yes. Very perceptive of you, I imagine most everyone else missed that.

    Seems like to you, “guaranteed” must involve “binding precedent.”

    No “guaranteed” must involve certainty, this certainty could be provided by legislation in statute law.

    to me, it makes no sense to equate an ordinary parlance with a legal term of art.

    I have not, I have equated ” guarantee” with “certainty” as most others would in this context.

    Even if such assertion were correct then by your own logic it seems to you are guilty of equating An ordinary parlance of “guarantee” with “persuasive precedent” a legal term of art.

    To me it makes no sense to equate a term which in ordinary parlance conveys certainty in results with “persuasive precedent ” which while conveying high level of probabilty of the same result, in no way conveys certainty.

    I mote also that you continue to engage in what seems, considering you have already confirmed the District Courts decisions not to be binding on the lower courts, meaningless semantics when you could as requested instead simply provide samples of Korean legal authority, statute or precedent, that support your case that a racial slur will if taken to court result in a certain conviction.

  • MrMao

    What he said.

  • MrMao

    I didn’t say that courts change their minds willy-nilly. There will never be another situation X, so the hypothetical next time will have a different fact pattern that might not involve such an unsympathetic defendant. As such, he or she and their hypothetical racial insult might be seen as less deserving of punishment. Arghaeri is right to say that a statue against racial discrimination is the only thing that would guarantee legal certainty on this issue. As far as I can see, this statute does not exist.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Hence, I really am unclear on what point it is your trying to make since the sister district courts together comprise the lower courts and accordingly we are both talking about the force of precedent over the same courts.

    The point is that it makes no sense to talk about District Court precedent’s applicability to the lower court, because there is no court that is lower than District Court. At any rate, there is no need to belabor this point, because we seem to be on the same page, just with different terms.

    Really, a minor court in korea has the power to set binding precedent, that would be most unusual in many jurisdictions. Are you saying that korean law provides this?

    As I said, the answer is no. Again, by definition, it is not possible for the lowest court to issue “binding precedent.”

    No “guaranteed” must involve certainty, this certainty could be provided by legislation in statute law.

    Are you saying only a statute can provide certainty? Because there, I would disagree. If what you want is absolute, 100% certainty across space and time, obviously not even a statute would provide that certainty. (The police and the court can just ignore the statute, for example.) Instead, what you are looking for is, as you put it, “high level of probability.”

    Just how high of a level of probability is required before it is considered “guaranteed”? That seems to be the disagreement here, and I am not sure if that’s resolvable.

    As far as I can see, this statute does not exist.

    Then you don’t see very well.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    By the way Arg, I am planning to attend the opera in about an hour, followed by late night football viewing party. Tomorrow, church, golf, then might have to work later in the night. Just in case you bitch about how I am not around to play with you.

  • MrMao

    So, for the umpteenth time, what is the statute? Are you telling me that this ruling is a statute? It’s not. See what Ben Wagner said on whether or not this ruling now means that Korea has a law against racial discrimination. Even he is not willing to yet say that this is now the case, just that a strong argument (that may or may not hold up in court) could be made that it does. If the police and/ or court ignored a statute, they would be acting unconstitutionally and would be highly vulnerable to a claim in constitutional law. You do know what rule of law means, don’t you?

  • JW

    Why does it matter whether its a statute or not? How many times do I have to repeat that in korea a racial minority is protected by criminal law from the threat of racial insult whereas in america or canada he is not? That’s the only important point to be made here. But then again you are MrMao a fucking moron who thinks an individual needs strangers of his own race to behave in certain ways before he can appeal for justice. What a fucking moron, seriously.

  • TheKorean2

    Funny how civilized South Korea has laws against racial prejudice when in America its ok to racial insult an Asian.

  • gbnhj

    ‘Funny how civilized South Korea has laws against racial prejudice when in America it[']s [legally] OK to [use a] racial insult [against] an Asian anyone, regardless of race.’

    Fixed it for you.

  • MrMao

    Mr Cha is not looking for justice, he is trying to sue a corporation for the one time actions of a former employee and you are agreeing with him due to your strange racial identity theory. Your argument is based in your disrespect for American laws which you think should be modified to fit your understanding of law, an understanding which doesn’t understand why statutes take precedence over caselaw and why the enactment of statutes by elected officials gives legitimacy to concepts beyond those espoused by unelected judges. I don’t think it’s ok to insult Asians, but I don’t think it should be a crime. Simple expression of ill will is not actionable at common law. I think that a stronger case can be made for criminalizing incitement of others to racial hatred, but this is taking us into another aspect of the free speech debate. See, I don’t really think it should be illegal to insult someone but your ‘racial identity’ has laws in its homeland that make it so. We’re arguing at cross purposes: I’m arguing against criminalizing insults, while you insult me in order to show me just how superior your laws are at protecting people from insult. You’re going to call me a fXXXing moron to show me how angry you are that someone swore at Mr Cha. Once again: as far as I can see, Korea does NOT have laws against racial prejudice. Show me the statute.

  • enomoseki

    What does Korea has anything to do with this? This is a korean american who most likely either born in US or raised in US is just following any american style of suing others for ridiculous amount of money.

    This isnt gangnam style.

  • Arghaeri

    By the way Arg, I am planning to attend the opera in about an hour, followed by late night football viewing party. Tomorrow, church, golf, then might have to work later in the night. Just in case you bitch about how I am not around to play with you.

    No there you go again, demonstrating how your professed desire for respectful debate is complete shit, since you’re the one who normally drags it into the gutter.

  • MrMao

    What does Korea have to do with this? Well, why did Mr Cha get a Korean-American lawyer to represent him in court?

  • Arghaeri

    The point is that it makes no sense to talk about District Court precedent’s applicability to the lower court, because there is no court that is lower than District Court. At any rate, there is no need to belabor this point, because we seem to be on the same page, just with different terms.

    My original reference was to a “minor” court, “lower courts” was introduced in response to your response referring to “until overturned by a higher court”, so I find it rather perverse that you suggest there is no need to belabor a point that you are the one who has been belaboring.

  • Arghaeri

    Remember, you first questioned whether there is any legal force in a case law issued by the lowest court.

    No I did not, I questioned whether there was any binding force in case law from the lowest courts, i.e district courts., that would “guarantee” the same result.

    For the second time now I will requote that question for you.

    Really not clear why you answering the question again, when it was expressley repeated only to show that you had misquoted it?

    I also note that you have not responded to the point that it is not infact defintionally impossible for courts of the same level to bind themselves.

  • enomoseki

    “Well, why did Mr Cha get a Korean-American lawyer to represent him in court?”

    Exactly. Korean-AMERICAN. He didn’t choose a fresh off the boat Korean lawyer to represent him, did he?

  • Arghaeri

    No “guaranteed” must involve certainty, this certainty could be provided by legislation in statute law.

    Are you saying only a statute can provide certainty?

    Clearly not. Did you not do Comprehension 101 at you school?

    You claimed that I was equating “guaranteed” with “binding precedent”, I countered thst I had made no such equation giving an alternate example of how such certainty “cod be provided”.

  • Arghaeri

    Sperwered

    No “guaranteed” must involve certainty, this certainty could be provided by legislation in statute law.

    Are you saying only a statute can provide certainty?

    Clearly not. Did you not do Comprehension 101 at school.

    You claimed that I was equating “guaranteed” with “binding precedent”, I countered that I had made no such equation giving an alternate example of how such certainty “could be provided”.

  • MrMao

    An FOB Korean isn’t likely to be registered with a state bar association. But why didn’t Mr Cha get a white guy? Or a black guy? Could it be because he’s Korean first and opportunistically seeking a claim under American law? Unless he also becomes an advocate for racial equality in Korea, he can go fly a kite. Even then, he is unlikely to win in court. I bet you ship won.

  • Arghaeri

    If what you want is absolute, 100% certainty across space and time, obviously not even a statute would provide that certainty. (The police and the court can just ignore the statute, for example.)

    Strange I thought you were arguing that the courts cannot ignore the law “willy-nilly”, strange you feel the only argument you have against your incorrect use of “guaranteed” is the very argument you used previously to defend your “guarantee”.

    Instead, what you are looking for is, as you put it, “high level of probability.”

    No you incorrectly provided the “guarantee” of certainty in law, where in fact the precedent you claimed as giving that “guarantee” in law is only persuavive and can legitmately in law not be followed.

    If in fact such precedent on racial insult even exists since you still haven’t answered whether you have even reviewed the ratio in the case before making your “guarantee” !!!

  • Arghaeri

    An FOB Korean isn’t likely to be registered with a state bar association

    Why, I know many who are?

  • gbnhj

    As a bystander, I’d say that it was all pretty clear:

    1) At #74, MrMao stated that ‘[t]hat’s what the court ruled in this case. It does not guarantee that this will always be the case.’

    2) At #76, thekorean stated that ‘[a]ctually, it does guarantee that. It is what is referred to as “judicial precedent,” which is considered valid law until overturned by a higher court’.

    3) At #78, Arghaeri asked ‘Really, a minor court in korea has the power to set binding precedent, that would be most unusual in many jurisdictions. Are you saying that korean law provides this?’

    Since then, thekorean has focused on the term ‘binding precedent’ while Argheari has reiterated his point that, in saying ‘actually, it does it does guarantee [that it will always be the case that a ruling in one court in Korea will be the same in every case in Korean courts’, thekorean is saying that its effect is binding to all courts in Korea.

    I’m not a lawyer, but as a bystander, Arghaeri’s position has been clear: he disputes thekorean’s assertion that a ruling in one district court in Korea would guarantee (that is, ‘provide with complete certainty’) the same verdict in district courts throughout Korea. Why this hasn’t been addressed by thekorean, who instead focuses on what he considers Arghaeri’s incorrect use of the legal term ‘binding precedent’, is less clear to me.

  • gbnhj

    …I’d say that most all of it was pretty clear…

  • MrMao

    Arghaeri, is a newcomer to the US (who may or may not speak English) likely to have a US law degree and have written state bar exams?

  • Arghaeri

    I thought you were referring to the lawyer?
    Or perhaps I misundertood FOB, what did you mean by FOB?

  • Arghaeri

    TK,

    Lets keep it simple, rather than belaboring your continued engagement in misdirection as to what the lower courts are, and engagement in misquotes and misrepresentions of what I have stated, how about you answer a simple question.

    If you were representing a victim in a case involving racial insult, would you guarantee him that the assailant would be convicted, in another district court, without having even read the the ratio decidendi in the subject case?

  • JW

    Hey MrMao you stupid idiot

    I never said Cha’s lawsuit was legitimate. Stop putting words in my mouth. I was simply repeating what you wrote, that you want to see unrelated koreans or asians to stop protesting in front of some embassy before Cha can seek justice. That’s just the most racist dumbest thing I’ve heard in quite a while.

  • Arghaeri

    who instead focuses on what he considers Arghaeri’s incorrect use of the legal term ‘binding precedent’, is less clear to me.

    This is part of his misdirection style,

    I asked him whether he thought the decision of a lower court was binding on the lower courts. He confirmed that it is not and then continues to belabor the definition knowing full well that having conceded it is not binding further elaboration of the definition is irrelevant to the discussion.

    I might note that even then it is not as he claimed “defintionally” impossible for lower courts to bind themselves. It is impossible for them to bind higher courts, and it may well be the defacto case that no lower courts exisst that do bind themselves, (without a study of every legal system and jurisdiction in the world I could not confirm this), but the definition of “binding precedent” does not preclude the possibilty of being bound by courts of the same level. It is well established for example that higher courts in some jurisdictions are bound by their own precedent.

  • MrMao

    FOB means fresh off the boat. It used to be kind of offensive, now it’s kind of archaic.

    If racial identity means that ethnic Koreans can bring their disputes to Canada, it also means that I can begrudge Mr Cha his discrimination claim because his ‘race’ are pretty racist on their own turf. Koreans disavow themselves of Korean racism once they immigrate, but want us to be concerned about their problems. Until they get their own house in order, it’s pretty hard to take them seriously.

  • Arghaeri

    Arghaeri, is a newcomer to the US (who may or may not speak English) likely to have a US law degree and have written state bar exams?

    BTW, Not likely, but possible, you din’t have to have a US law degree to take the state bar exams, and it is quite common to study for the state bar exam in korea.

  • MrMao

    Actually, those statements are quite true. But it’s fairly safe to assume that the person Mr Cha hired is a Korean-American and not a recent arrival, given that in order to join a state bar association they would likely have to be legally resident in that state and this would probably go along with acquiring US citizenship.

  • JW

    So in other words, in MrMao’s eyes, it doesn’t matter if Cha as an individual had a blameless history of treating non koreans with respect. The fact that Cha identifies as a Korean and that some unrelated people who also happen to be korean are protesting in Canada gives MrMao the right to say that Cha’s actions are hypocritical, in MrMao’s delusional and racist world view.

  • bumfromkorea

    @JW

    He just has this incredible angst against the Koreans in general (considering his past comments here) that makes him oblivious to what he is actually saying. I dunno if that makes him a full-on racist, but it is pretty pathetic.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    No there you go again, demonstrating how your professed desire for respectful debate is complete shit, since you’re the one who normally drags it into the gutter.

    I did you the favor of giving my schedule so that you wouldn’t be anxiously visiting MH every three minutes just to see if I said anything in response, and that’s dragging it into the gutter? So far, I have been nothing about civil in this thread. But as you well know, I am all about reciprocity. Keep behaving like an ass, and see what happens.

    If you were representing a victim in a case involving racial insult, would you guarantee him that the assailant would be convicted, in another district court, without having even read the the ratio decidendi in the subject case?

    Absolutely not. As an attorney, professional responsibility dictates that I not guarantee anything to a client. Guaranteeing a certain result to a client is the stuff that malpractice lawsuit is made out of.

    Arghaeri’s position has been clear: he disputes thekorean’s assertion that a ruling in one district court in Korea would guarantee (that is, ‘provide with complete certainty’) the same verdict in district courts throughout Korea. Why this hasn’t been addressed by thekorean, who instead focuses on what he considers Arghaeri’s incorrect use of the legal term ‘binding precedent’, is less clear to me.

    I understood Arg’s point, and I addressed it at least three times — @100, @114 and @121. I don’t really feel like addressing any further arm-waving from him, actually. Three times is about as much as I can attempt to explain something to someone before deciding that my explanatory abilities are no match for the challenge ahead.

  • Arghaeri

    I did you the favor of giving my schedule so that you wouldn’t be anxiously visiting MH every three minutes just to see if I said anything in response, and that’s dragging it into the gutter? So far, I have been nothing about civil in this thread. But as you well know, I am all about reciprocity. Keep behaving like an ass, and see what happens.

    ㅋㅋㅋ you’re so funny, like anyone would believe that I’m gonna stay up all night for you!

  • Arghaeri

    Absolutely not. As an attorney, professional responsibility dictates that I not guarantee anything to a client. Guaranteeing a certain result to a client is the stuff that malpractice lawsuit is made out of.

    Thank you, answered as expected. If the redult was guaranteed as you claimed you would have no concern over a malpractise suit.

  • Arghaeri

    So far the only thing you have answered is to concede that any precedent in this case is not “binding precedent” but that the court is still bound to follow it. Great answer.

    You typically in debates at the hole insist people not only answer your question but substantiate it. Yet despite several requests you have provided no authority for your opinion, you are not even able to confirm what the ratio in the judgement is (if any) i.e. what the precedent is, not having even read it.

    Again, please provide authority for your position, instead of your usual fallacious cop out when you’re struggling, and repeated here, that somehow your explanation is impeccable and it is the other parties fault for failuring to understand you.

    I am out, your complete failure to support your assertion that the district courts are bound to follow precedent that is not “binding precedent” particularly when you can’t even tell us what the precedent in the case was.

  • Avaast

    @ 122

    Do you often attend the opera? I’ve never figured out the allure of sitting around for hours listening to only very occasionally rousing pieces of music composed in Italian/German/French etc. How do they go about explaining the story to people, or is it assumed that everyone present knows the story? I’d appreciate hearing your views on it.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Do you often attend the opera? I’ve never figured out the allure of sitting around for hours listening to only very occasionally rousing pieces of music composed in Italian/German/French etc. How do they go about explaining the story to people, or is it assumed that everyone present knows the story? I’d appreciate hearing your views on it.

    I do attend often, for a very practical — to see my wife play. To be completely honest, I am yet to truly understand its allure. There are beautiful moments in fits and starts, but can’t say I would attend very often if my wife were not playing the music.

    I would say this though — definitely watch the Met Opera’s most recent production of the Ring Cycle. It is absolutely incredible, and that was the first series that made me closer to truly appreciating opera.

  • jtyler79asia

    this lawsuit just ludicrous imo..

  • MrMao

    8 years of getting treated like crap in Korea makes one pretty jaded when one hears of Koreans complain about racism. Sort your own house out before you tell other countries how to behave. Mr Cha and his lawyer are unethcial and greedy and they are going to lose. Have any of you found that statute for me yet?

  • enomoseki

    Then grow some balls and sue some koreans already.

    But oh yeah, your people love complaining in the internet where you think anonymous actually gives a damn.

    Sad life you have, bro.

  • DLBarch

    Avaast @ 155 asks re opera sung in Italian/German/French, etc:

    “How do they go about explaining the story to people, or is it assumed that everyone present knows the story?”

    Most Opera Houses long ago adopted what are known as surtitles, supra-titles, or supertitles that project English translations of whatever libretto is being sung onto a small screen above the stage.

    Opera purists were initially aghast at this, but most have long since given up complaining. It does, in fact, make following the story of any given opera exponentially easier than the stilted old days when only connoisseurs could really follow the story line by line.

    DLB

  • MrMao

    Not as sad as you guys saying, without any regard for the state of the law, that Mr Cha deserves $150,000.00 for hurt feelings because you share his ‘racial identity.’

  • enomoseki

    Never said he deserves it. No one deserves that amount of fucking money because his feeling was hurt or insulted. But this happened in America. Where people can sue over just about anything and can get away with million bucks in their pockets for doing so.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Have any of you found that statute for me yet?

    God, you’re such a dumb shit. Like I said, it is all available on the simplest Internet search. If you search for “인종 & 차별” on http://www.law.go.kr, it pulls up 14 results, all specifically outlawing racial discrimination in various situations. If you search for “지역 & 차별” (to cover discrimination based on “place of origin”,) there are 32 results. All statutes. Will you shut the fuck up now?

  • MrMao

    You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that this ruling is the basis for outlawing discrimination in Korea while saying that laws against it have always existed in other forms, none of which were cited in the Hussein case. My question about the statute was polite and based on a somewhat misleading statement from a Korean media source (which you say are all inherently unreliable all the time), as well as on my experiences in Korea. How can a country that teaches racial purity convincingly advocate racial equality anyway? It’s not your fault, it’s just the way you were raised.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Forget it — it is my fault for dealing with someone who does not have enough brain cells to advance a logically consistent racism.

  • enomoseki

    There is nothing wrong with racial purity. As long as they don’t go out killing other races like the Third Reich. Right? Right? Someone answer me.

    Plus, doesn’t japan also practice racial purity and national homogeneous?

  • Avaast

    @ 156, 160

    Interesting. I’ve only been to the opera in Prague and London, presumably either before these surtitles were in place, or at purist venues. I have a friend in Canada who is obsessed with the Ring Cycle – not sure when I’ll get the chance to watch it over there though.

    What’s the opera scene like here in Korea?

  • bumfromkorea

    8 years of getting treated like crap in Korea makes one pretty jaded when one hears of Koreans complain about racism.

    Well, at least the ugly truth is out. To you, there is no distinction between Mr. Cha, the Koreans who treated you like shit, me, other ethnic Koreans on this website, and really, any Koreans you ever meet (and don’t meet, apparently). We all share the responsibility for your crappy experience, and we all must pay for it. I believe that is the textbook definition of racism.

    Jesus, dude, grow a pair and get over it. You make my friend’s indescribably whiny emo sister sound like James Earl Jones.