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K-community down under at war with Korean prostitutes

Koreans in Australia are calling for a crackdown on Korean prostitutes pushing the flesh on working holiday visas in Aussie land.

More than 2,000 Koreans living in Australia have expressed their willingness to join a street campaign in Sydney, an alliance of the communities said Thursday.

“It’s known that about 1,000 Korean prostitutes are working in Australia. That’s about 17 percent of all prostitutes in the country,” the group said in a statement.

Frankly, said one Korean resident, it’s embarrassing.

“Some jokingly say prostitutes are one of Korea’s major export items. It is shameful for all of us.”

The K-pros have the market cornered through aggressive leaflet campaigns and ads in local papers.

Insert “no happy ending to this growing problem” joke here.

About the author: Founder/CEO of Meme Communications Korea – www.memecommunications.com

  • Yu Bum Suk

    “It’s known that about 1,000 Korean prostitutes are working in Australia. That’s about 17 percent of all prostitutes in the country,”

    So there are only 5,882 prostitutes in a country of over 22 million people? They should be rejoicing that their home’s prostitution numbers are so low. There must be at least that many prostitutes in my province in Korea alone.

  • red sparrow

    Does “aggressive leaflet campaigns” mean they litter the streets as they do here?

  • red sparrow

    It may surprise Yu Bum Suk to hear that not every country has the same enthusiasm for prostitution as Korea. Aside from Thailand, I cannot think of another country that has sex for sale in so many ways, shapes and forms as Korea.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    For an ethnic group supposedly forced to become “comfort women,” many Korean women do not seem to have any qualms about selling their bodies now.

  • Yu Bum Suk

    3 – You’ve never been to Japan or the Netherlands? I was a cheap backpacker when I was in Russia, but I’ve heard that if you have money to splash it’ll find you there, too. Then there’s mainland China, a place I’ve never been but where my friend’s students have taken him whoring.

  • gbnhj

    Right Gerry: if one Korean woman ever entered into that profession willingly, no matter the time or place, then Lord knows they all did, from time immemorial.

  • commander

    beaver logic at work:

    gbevers August 31, 2012 at 2:50 pm
    For an ethnic group supposedly forced to become “comfort women,” many Korean women do not seem to have any qualms about selling their bodies now.

    If beaver logic were to be applied to, say, rape, then one would probably make the following beaveresque statement: for a gender group supposedly opposed to rape, many women do not seem to have any qualms about engaging in sex.

    The beaver mind is obsessed with Dokdo and comfort women.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Gbnhj wrote (#6):

    Right Gerry: if one Korean woman ever entered into that profession willingly, no matter the time or place, then Lord knows they all did, from time immemorial.

    Well, it is said to be the world’s oldest profession, and there were prostitutes in Korea long before the Japanese got there.

    King Sejong Ordered Comfort Women for His Troops

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Finally, we get to the bottom of the Japanophile argument—It’s not that the Japanese military systematically raped thousands of Korean women. It’s that Korean women are whores.

  • hamel

    Robert: and ethnically so. It’s in the blood and/or genes, apparently.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Robert Koehler wrote (#9):

    Finally, we get to the bottom of the Japanophile argument—It’s not that the Japanese military systematically raped thousands of Korean women. It’s that Korean women are whores.

    Are the Korean prostitutes in Australia being raped? Were they raped during King Sejong’s time? Were the hundreds of Korean prostitutes who held street protests in South Korea against anti-prostitution laws rape victims?

  • commander

    Non sequitur, beavers.

  • hamel

    Sometimes I just want to strap someone to a chair and take him through the points with flashcards, one by one.

  • TheKorean2

    Hey Gerry Bevers,
    If Comfort women are prostitutes, then did all get paid? Yea, prostitution existed in every society, so it’s surprising to you? Bevers doesn’t know that there was a huge prostitution system provided by Japanese government in post-war Japan which got nearly USFJ affected with STDs.

  • TheKorean2

    Compare to Chinese, Thai, Russian, Japanese or other ethnic prostitutes in Australia, South Korean does the least.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    there was a huge prostitution system provided by Japanese government in post-war Japan which got nearly USFJ affected with STDs.

    Just like the one provided by ROKGOV for USFK and other UN troops from the time of the Korean War up into the 80s, eh?

  • TheKorean2

    Sperwer, not huge and organized as Japan. S.Korea did provide aftermath of Korean war and was stopped in 60s.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    TheKorean2 wrote:

    Bevers doesn’t know that there was a huge prostitution system provided by Japanese government in post-war Japan which got nearly USFJ affected with STDs.

    I know that was the case in South Korea after the war, so it is likely it was the same in Japan.

    The following is my translation of an October 19, 1959 article from the Korean newspaper Donga Ilbo.

    66% of Comfort Women Infected—Results of Nationwide Testing of Female Entertainers

    According to information obtained from the Ministry of Social Welfare on the 18th, Hagak VD Treatment Center in East Busan and other general practice clinics conducted venereal disease (VD) examinations on a total of 392,707 women last year.

    The examination of the women, which included dancers, hostesses, and unlicensed prostitute, took one year to complete. They found that comfort women had the highest rate of infection at 66.4%, followed by hostesses at 16.2%, unlicensed prostitutes at 13%, and dancers at 4.4%.

    The number of examinees and their infection percentages were as follows:

    261,089 comfort women with 66.4% infected
    63,635 hostesses with 16.2% infected
    51,119 unlicensed prostitutes with 13% infected
    16,864 dancers with 4.4% infected

    However, as part of efforts to control VD, the government receives annually $30,000 worth of medicine in foreign aid, which it uses to provide free treatment at each VD treatment facility. Also, it is said that the VD Policy Committee–whose members include the Head of the Health Section of the United States Operations Mission (USOM), the US Eight Army Medical Operations Supervisor, and other medical specialists—has selected twelve treatment facilities from the ninety-eight nationwide to detect the pathogenic bacteria at an early stage.

  • commander

    Wait a minute… is that you, Marvin Hagler? Right here at the Hole? You know that your cover is blown, don’t you?

  • berto

    only 1000? small potatoes compared to los angeles.
    from wikipedia:
    A Los Angeles police spokesman said that about 90 percent of the department’s 70-80 monthly arrests for prostitution involve Korean women and Los Angeles police estimates that there are 8,000 Korean prostitutes working in that city and its suburbs.[28] Korean women`s customers in foreign countries are mostly Korean men.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    The Korean2 (#14),

    I replied to you, but it is “awaiting moderation” for some reason. Let’s try it this way.

    An October 19, 1959 article entited “66% of Comfort Women Infected-Results of Nationwide Testing of Female Entertainers” reported that of 261,089 “comfort women” in Korea, 66.4% of them were infected with VD. It also reported the percentages for women in other professions. Here they are.

    The number of examinees and their infection percentages were as follows:

    261,089 comfort women with 66.4% infected
    63,635 hostesses with 16.2% infected
    51,119 unlicensed prostitutes with 13% infected
    16,864 dancers with 4.4% infected

  • hamel

    Just like the one provided by ROKGOV for USFK and other UN troops from the time of the Korean War up into the 80s, eh?

    Do you have any evidence to show that this continued up into the 1980s?

  • Yu Bum Suk

    “Compare to Chinese, Thai, Russian, Japanese or other ethnic prostitutes in Australia, South Korean does the least.”

    One time when I was in Japan I got into a debate with a guy at a bar about whether Japan or Korea had a higher percentage of bargirls. He remained firmly convinced that Japan did but I think I still made a good case for Daehanminguk. They probably do have Korea beat when it comes to barboys, though.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    The Korean2 wrote:

    Sperwer, not huge and organized as Japan. S.Korea did provide aftermath of Korean war and was stopped in 60s.

    You don’t know what you are talking about. It was still going strong when I was in Korea in the US navy in the late 1970s, and I have a September 1, 1991 Hankyoreh article entitled “Entering Den of Darkness, Camptown Comfort Women, Again” that I am thinking about translating. In the meantime you might want to read some of the articles on my Web site:

    Korean History

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @17

    Really, over 400,000 women in the system in 1959 (according to official govt figures – that women’s group contest) was not massive and organized? You are delusional.

    Hamel: The references are in the various feminist books on the camptowns

  • TheKorean2

    Gbevers, please state your source and yes, I read your article. Looks like you can’t read Hanja and Hangul correctly. Please provide the Korean source for the newspaper.

    “With the acceptance of the Allied occupation authorities the Japanese organized a brothel system for the benefit of the more than 300,000 occupation troops. “The strategy was, through the special work of experienced women, to create a breakwater to protect regular women and girls.”

    “When MacArthur finally closed the brothels on March 25, 1946, it is estimated that more than 25% of the U.S. troops had sexually transmitted diseases.[49][50][51][52]“

  • hamel

    Sperwer:

    Hamel: The references are in the various feminist books on the camptowns.

    I only know of Moon’s “Sex Among Allies.” Please name the other books. Which of them have you read?

  • YangachiBastardo

    Gbevers, please state your source and yes, I read your article. Looks like you can’t read Hanja and Hangul correctly

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO you don’t know what can of worms you just opened

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Let the Good Times Roll: Prostitution ans the US Military in Asia

    Militarized Modernity: Gender and Citizenship in SOuth Korea

    are the ones that immediately come to mind.

    There also is an extensive literature of academic articles.

    Yes.

  • hamel

    YB: come on man, he has been accused of not being able to read English before (by me, I think), so how is this any worse.

    Sperwer: thanks.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @28

    The only can of worms he’s opened is the one of his own ignorance: whatever his faults, Bevers does know the sources; what’s interesting is that it is evident that nearly none of his koreasentry interlocutors do; they are ignorance of their own history is inversely proportional to their familiarity with the legends and fantasies propogated by the korean educational system.

  • YangachiBastardo

    Sperwer: i don’t dislike Gerry, actually i always learn something from his posts.

    it is that this whole sordid affair here at the marmot is at times a bit frustrating as it seems to go on ad infinitum wth nobody moving one millimiter from their initial stance

  • hamel

    Sperwer: let’s not be too hasty. Let’s see what TheKorean2 can do with the articles that Gerry has found.

  • R. Elgin

    This is months-old news and apparently is flame-bait.

  • hamel

    Yangachi: I disagree. I think from Gerry’s comments #4, #8 and #11 above, we can see that his position has moved more than a few millimeters beyond where he was when he first appeared on this blog many years ago.

  • YangachiBastardo

    Oh Lord hamel i wish i was there to witness it with my own eyes :)

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    The Korean2 wrote (#26):

    Gbevers, please state your source and yes, I read your article. Looks like you can’t read Hanja and Hangul correctly. Please provide the Korean source for the newspaper.

    I’m curious to know how you were able to determine my translation was wrong without even seeing the source article?

    Anyway, I posted a link to my Web site above, but HERE is a direct link to the article, itself.

    I would appreciate it if you would point out my translation errors.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Hamel:

    I didn’t say Bevers always draws the most defensible conclusions from the sources. But it is amusing to see the way in which he can cite, almost at will, evidence to contradict some of the ridiculous claims of the korchavs and then watch them reveal their ignorance of the sources/facts by questioning the authenticity of his sources rather than deal directly with the issue put into play by the evidence of which they’ve heretofore been unaware or chosen to ignore (lest their heads explode)

  • hamel

    Sperwer: …

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Yes, Hamel?

  • http://globalasianculture.com Liz

    Does anyone know who frequents South Korean prostitutes in Australia? Is it the local, mostly White Australian population? Or are they there to cater to the Korean gyopo clientele?

    Also I’ve noticed many of you think prostitution is some laughing matter and these women should be the butt of your jokes.

    I beg to differ.

  • Creo69

    ” it is that this whole sordid affair here at the marmot is at times a bit frustrating as it seems to go on ad infinitum wth nobody moving one millimiter from their initial stance”

    If it is any consolation you can take comfort (no pun intended) in the fact that you and I will never have a disagreement on this topic. I won’t go near the topic of “Comfort Women” with a ten foot pole.

  • Q

    위안부(慰安婦) literally means ‘comfort women’. It could mean bar girls, hostess, or prostitutes. Japanese euphemistically used the term to cover up their cruelty to women at military prostitution.

    Toshiyuki Tanaka’s research has a chapter The organizational structure of the comfort women system.

    Japanese proverb: 嘘も百回繰り返せば真実になる (If you tell a lie big enough and repeated often, then people will believe it at the end.)

    “I call it the sickness of Japan. First, we hide, then we postpone, and then we assume no responsibility.” Mitsuhei Murata (Japan’s former Ambassador to Switzerland )(6:43)

  • cm

    Subject derailed again because of one person.

    Can we get back to the topic at hand now?

  • YangachiBastardo

    Also I’ve noticed many of you think prostitution is some laughing matter and these women should be the butt of your jokes.

    I beg to differ

    Let’s clarify one thing here: not all the prostitutes in this world are trafficked as sexual slaves. Many of them come from relatively normal backgrounds and decide consciously to join the ranks of the sex workers because well it pays good money or whatever other reason they might have.

    To me the sex trade, when it involves consenting adults and it happens under normal, acceptable circumstances (in terms of labor conditions, healthcare etc.) is just well another trade like everything else.

    I have no contempt and no sympathy either for any of the parties involved.

    Where do Korean prostitutes in Australia stand ? Are they sex workers or sex slaves ? I don’t know…according to another poster (PeteDownUnder i think) they’re mosty middle class chicks willing to make some quick cash and sepnd time abroad.

    Their choice, i don’t care truly…i just find the rethoric of hoookers-as-victims a bit annoying at times

    PS

    Ah i’ve never hired a hooker (believe it or not) and i consider paying to get laid a sure sign of imbecillity

  • cm

    This is about saving face for the Korean community in Australia, then anything else. Again, illustrating the Korea’s consciousness toward collective responsibility as a group – a concept alien to Western values.

  • AED

    38: not always the most defensible? nice way of putting it. why not just say that GBevers can be wrong too.

    i can’t fault anyone for pointing out the skeletons in korea’s closet but i’d hope that we can still maintain a sense of fairness here

  • H.Schmidt

    1000 prostitutes make up 17% of all prostitutes in Australia? That is a very small number.

    I’m glad that Koreans are trying to solve this problem. Korean prostitution is also a problem in the US, although it has improved in recent years.

    What is bringing all these Korean women into prostitution in harsh conditions in foreign countries? Clearly the Korean government is at fault here. The Korean government must be more diligent in solving this huge problem.

  • Seth Gecko

    Sperwer said:

    korchavs

    Lol, never heard that before.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @47

    I was being fair; on the big issues, bever generally has the better of the argument over his korchauv counterparts; even then, though, he also often doesn’t have the most defensible position

  • TheKorean2

    Sperwer,
    You must be ignorant like Bevers here, his translations and figures are distorted.

    As for Bevers, there is no direct link to the actual newspaper where you got your source, please provide.

    Good day.

  • red sparrow

    H. Schmidt (and maybe Liz),

    What pushes Korean women into prostitution? Simple answer: No matter what its advances, society here still places a ceiling on where women can go. There is no chance for career advancement. There are no genuine economic opportunities. If by the age of 28 you aren’t married and churning out little princelings, you are washed up and worthless. Why are Korean women whores? Look no farther than a culture that only values them as such.

  • TheKorean2

    Red Sparrow,
    Stop assuming all Korean women does prostitution when prostitution figures are small compare to neighboring countries like Japan or China.

  • commander

    Wow red sparrow wow. Generalize much?

  • DLBarch

    Sperwer @ 49,

    “Korchauv”? Nice. I took me a few seconds to get that.

    I used to live in England and thought at first you meant to type “Korchav,” which also works.

    Or how about “Korboggan” for our friends down-under?

    One could go on, but that would be mean.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKHoMi-U8g4

    DLB

  • hamel

    TheKorean2: You are incorrect. The link that Gerry provided in comment #37 above (here it is again http://koreanhistorytranslations.blogspot.com/2012/05/19-oct-1959-donga-ilbo-66-of-comfort.html) goes to the Donga Ilbo article of Oct 15, 1959. You can read it there in mixed 한글 + 한자.

    Let us know if his translation is incorrect.

  • hamel

    I was being fair; on the big issues, bever generally has the better of the argument over his korchauv counterparts; even then, though, he also often doesn’t have the most defensible position

    I am going to have to cite you for punctuation abuse – double parking of a semi colon in one sentence is just showing off faux erudition; and not ending the sentence with a period, that is just;

    Apart from that, I am not comfortable with labeling groups of people either korchavs or korchauvs.

  • iMe

    I am convinced that Gerry’s lonesome heart was once ripped to shreds by a Korean prostitute in Dokdo.

    Get over it, man.

  • YangachiBastardo

    @ # 57

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Honestly that was an hilarious jab

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    I think this might be as good a place as any to (again) link Dr. Andrei Lankov’s article on the origins of commercialized prostitution in Korea.

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2008/07/165_26554.html

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    iMe,

    Funniest comment in TMH’s in quite awhile…

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    The Korean2 wrote (#50)

    Sperwer, You must be ignorant like Bevers here, his translations and figures are distorted.

    As for Bevers, there is no direct link to the actual newspaper where you got your source, please provide.

    You have the name of the newspaper, the date of the article, and the article itself, yet you still want to see the newspaper page the article came from? If that is the case, then why can’t you find the newspaper page yourself? It’s not that hard, unless you are not really a Korean.

    Let’s make a deal. You first show me the errors in my translation, and then I will give you a link that points to the page from which the article came.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Wangkon wrote (#59):

    I think this might be as good a place as any to (again) link Dr. Andrei Lankov’s article on the origins of commercialized prostitution in Korea.

    As opposed to the slave prostitution that the Japanese ended in Korea?

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    … and they replaced it with something vastly larger…

  • jk6411

    Sperwer @#25,

    Really, over 400,000 women in the system in 1959 (according to official govt figures – that women’s group contest) was not massive and organized? You are delusional.

    -sigh-
    No, there weren’t 400,000 women in the system in 1959.
    The “system” did not exist yet.

    The Korean govt started registering UN prostitutes in 1961.
    This is when they started registering them, issuing them VD Cards, and systematically testing them for VD’s.
    (The reason they did this was that, as the 1959 study found, the VD infection rate among UN prostitutes was really high.)

    But between the 1960s and 2000s, there were on average about 10,000 to 20,000 of these camp-town prostitutes at any one time.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    WangKong wrote:

    … and they replaced it with something vastly larger…

    You seem to be admitting that there were a “vast” number of commercial prostitutes in Korea during the colonial period. If true, then what happened to all those prostitutes when Japan and Korea went to war? Did they return to farming?

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Japan and Korea went to war?

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    JK6411 wrote (#64):

    -sigh-
    No, there weren’t 400,000 women in the system in 1959.
    The “system” did not exist yet. The Korean govt started registering UN prostitutes in 1961.

    If there was no registration system in 1959, then how did the government know that 66.4% of 261,089 “comfort women” tested positive for VD? Did the comfort women wear uniforms as opposed to the 51,119 “unlicensed prostitutes” mentioned in the 1959 article?

    The September 14, 1961 newspaper article HERE, to which you seem to be referring, said, “Seoul Metropolitan Police transferred its authority to register comfort women for UN soldiers to its front-line offices.”

    “Transferred” (전달) means the Seoul police were already registering women, but were apparently doing it at their headquarters office rather than neighborhood offices, where it would be more convenient for the women.

    Thinking to myself, “Man, why are there so many people on his blog who seem incapable of using common sense?”

  • red sparrow

    “Stop assuming all Korean women does prostitution when prostitution figures are small compare to neighboring countries like Japan or China.”

    And here we have the perfect apologist: “Those countries are heroin addicts. We are only hooked on meth and crack.”

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    WangKong wrote (#66):

    Japan and Korea went to war?

    You know, the big war in Asia and the Pacific. You do remember Korea was then part of the Japanese Empire, don’t you?

  • Q

    Gerry, post-war prostitution in Korea is different from Japanese military sexual slavery in many ways: Procurement of Korean and Taiwanese women. Gerry, report to your boss that you are not doing very well at TMH:

    Nippon Kaigi Kokkai Giin Kondankai (日本会議国会議員懇談会)

    Multi-partisan. Established in 1997 and is the largest organization demanding the revision of the constitution. The Japan League, often called the “Japan Conference” in English, denies that World War II was a war of aggression; it downplays the Nanjing Masacre; wants education reform with a strong central control and an educaatino curriculum based on patriotic values; and rejects equality between the sexes. Diet Members’ Japan League was established to support and work with Japan League.

    The Diet Member’s Japan League has three main political goals: 1) history/education/family issues; 2) defense/diplomacy/territory issues (headed by current PM Abe Shinzo in 2002); and 3) Constitution/Imperial Family/Yasukuni Shrine issues. It has succeeded in producing a textbook on morality, Note for Heart.

    LDP Policy Research Council Chairman Shoichi Nakagawa is the Acting Chair, Prime Minister Abe is the Deputy Chief Secretary, Deputy Chief Cabinet Secretary Hakubun Shimomura is the Secretary General and Foreign Minister Taro Aso is a Special Advisers to Prime Minister Abe belong to this group. The League’s President is Takeo Hiranuma, former METI minister, who is a signatory to the “Facts” advertisement in the Washington Post.

    Website: http://www.nipponkaigi.org

    [Source]

  • Q
  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Q wrote (#70):

    Gerry, report to your boss that you are not doing very well at TMH:

    Q, have you ever considered getting a job inside a clock?

  • Q

    Gerry, doesn’t your history manual have this too?: The US, not Japan, was the Aggressor.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    gbevers,

    I’m sure you know this as well as I do, but technically Korea and Koreans didn’t exist from 1910 to 1945. As you recall, Korea was annexed and Koreans were given nominal Japanese citizenship. About 305k ethnic Koreans of the Japanese Empire were direct participants of the Showa era wars. 17k were volunteers and the rest were draftees.

  • CactusMcHarris

    Somewhere, on a group of shit-flecked islets, two seagulls are discussing the pot calling the kettle black.

  • CactusMcHarris

    Sorry, it was two seagulls and a penguin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=R9ETlTZoF1E

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    CactusMcHarris,

    Puffins, not penguins. No penguins on the Liancourt Rocks.

  • DLBarch

    CMcH,

    You owe me a new white dress shirt and maybe a new keyboard.

    Coffee EVERYWHERE!

    DLB

  • CactusMcHarris

    #77,

    No puffins in the link, either, but you get an A for authenticity. Happy now?

    #78,

    Good to know I gave you a spray moment, DLB.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    add the czech republic to the list of nations w lots of prostition. red sparrow, do you see yourself as a hero?

  • http://www.zenkimchi.com/FoodJournal ZenKimchi

    This is an illegible mess. I miss Disqus.

  • enomoseki

    What exactly is this troll “gerry”s obsession with Korean comfort women during WWII?

    I’m guessing he had some kind of messed up relationships with some unknown Korean prostitute.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    No penguins on Dokdo? Not yet, you mean.

    Why not add some to the local bird population there and argue that Dokdo can’t be Japanese because Japan doesn’t have penguins.

    When the Japanese retort that neither does Korea, just point to Dokdo.

    The Japanese will splutter, “But those aren’t native to Dokdo!”

    Koreans can then reply, “That proves you have no valid claim, or you’d know that penguins have always lived on Dokdo.”

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Q

    Seals used to flurish in Dokdo until very early 20C, but went extinct due to Japanese hunters after 1905:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Cl4T2iWq0

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Q, here’s a tip (a Q-Tip?): “on” Dokdo, not “in” Dokdo.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • jkitchstk

    # 52 red sparrow & # 53 TheKorean2,
    “Why are Korean women whores? Look no farther than a culture that only values them as such.”

    Spot on, said to me by a younger male/Freshman Samesung Fire & Marine Insurance employee – “A beautiful Korean woman causes problems(male on male fighting) in the office so the best thing for her is prostitution.” Samesung: Working hard on the continual training of younger Korean males.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    Bevers,

    And you’re going to argue that the 300 Dutch women and girls who ended up becoming sex slaves for the Japanese soldiers in Indonesia did so willingly?

    http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/TenWarCrimes/Sex-Slaves.html

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    we must assume that jkitsch’s korean girlfriend isnt a whore. she also got no plastic surgery.

  • Maximus2008

    Agree with Sperwer on his Gerry’s analysis. Not a very popular guy, but he shows links and such. His opponents are usually not able to do the same.

    Except for Q. Although I don’t like his interventions – that usually have nothing to do with the thread – he also has a good library of links.

    Which makes me wonder: are you guys Jeovah’s Witnesses? These guys have A LOT of ready made references…

    And this new “TheKorean2″…laughable, to say the least…

  • hamel

    Which makes me wonder: are you guys Jeovah’s Witnesses? These guys have A LOT of ready made references

    Only if you try reasoning with the scriptures with them….

    I was approached by a young and nervous Jehovah’s Witness man of about 23 at the wine section of our local Costco. After 5 minutes of awkward conversation (with me wondering when the payoff would come) he handed me a copy of AWAKE! magazined in English.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Hamel! Are you Aussies now using “magazine” as a verb? I’ll disembark at this stop — no telling where your train of thought is headed!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • bballi bballi Paradise

    @89
    I always picture you as the guy who married his pillow on 화성인 바이러스

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @63

    And this might be a good place to look again at the probative value of WangKon’s reference to Lankov’s pieve:

    1. Note first that the reference is an appeal to (purported) authority, one moreover that itself contains very, very few evidentiary facts (but we’ll come back to the latter point). True Lankov is a respected scholar. But note that his academic reputation rests on his monographs regarding north korean state formation. He also has done good work on the topic of ethnic Koreans in the former Soviet Union and its successor states, particularly the Russian Far East Korean communities. All his work in those fields is well supported by documented facts. He does not seem to have any particular scholarly expertise in late Joseon and colonial period history.

    2. More importantly, his cited newspaper feature article contains almost no supporting facts for the proposition that the Japanese were the causative factor in some putative massive expansion and commercialization of prostitution in Korea, and the facts it does contain do not warrant any such conclusion. The single “hard” fact adduced in the article (which is repeated twice, one loosely and then precisely thus) is that “By 1883, there were 94 registered prostitutes in Busan, working in nine brothels and serving a population of 997 males, and regulated by the Japanese consular authorities. These women were exclusively patronized by expatriate Japanese and, as we know from other sources, other expatriate foreigners.

    94 working girls for 997 potential Japanese clients hardly seems to warrant the conclusion that the Japanese massively expanded the scope of commercialized sex in Korea, especially when you just consider that at the time every Korean government office across the country from the capital, through the provinces and down to the counties had anywhere from one to a couple of dozen working girls on staff, not to even mention private avenes of prostitution. Of course, one could argue that such govt sponsored prostitution for officialdom and those doing business with the govt was not “commercial”, but when you consider that most of the women in these positions were slaves, I wonder if that’s a difference that warrants a distinction.

    3. We can hypothesize that as time went on, these numbers increased, particularly when the govt system of institutionalized prostitution was dismantled and some likely high % (if not all) the suddenly unemployed numbers of official Korean prostitutes went into private business, more Japanese moved to the peninsula, more Japanese prostitutes were imported to service them and the barriers to foreign patronage f Korean prostitutes were lowered.
    But as things stand, that’s all it is – an hypothesis – nothing in Lankov’s article “proves” such.

    4. Finally, it’s worth noting an important distinction between what Lankov actually does say in his unsubstantiated conclusory allegations and how WangKon (mis)represents it. Lankov only notes a correlation between the alleged increase in prostitution in Korea and what he describes as the Japanese “presence”. Unlike WangKon, he does not say or imply that the presence of the Japanese was a monocausal factor behind the purported (but note again the factually unsubstantiated claim of) a massive increase in prostitution, let alone that the Japanese were deliberate drivers of some unprecedented increase in Korean prostitution. The clear implication, which after all also is common sense, is that the Japanese presence was, if only by virtue of the creation of additional demand, but one of many factors that contributed to the phenomenon, such as it may have been. For obvious reasons, a much more likely candidate, to describe it at a high level of abstraction, was modernization, a process in which Koreans were as deeply implicated as Japanese.

  • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com The Sanity Inspector

    I agree with ZenKimchi–threads need threadability.

    I once went strolling through a newish, upscale neighborhood in Gwangju, and was stunned by all the prostitution leaflets littering the sidewalk. At first I thought they had just blown off of a phone pole or something. But they went on for blocks and blocks and blocks.

  • Arghaeri

    Also I’ve noticed many of you think prostitution is some laughing matter and these women should be the butt of your jokes.

    Prostitution is fact of life, and there is no obvious reason why they should be any more insulated from commonhumour than any other honest worker.

  • Arghaeri

    Ah i’ve never hired a hooker (believe it or not) and i consider paying to get laid a sure sign of imbecillity

    So you don’t believe in convenience stores either?

    and, so how come you keep getting married, the mist expensive way of getting sex known to man :-)

  • TheKorean2

    Sperwer,

    Those Japanese brothels that was set up in 1880s weren’t filled Korean prostitutes, but Japanese for Korean clients (maybe). They were a lot of Japanese settlers and traders in Busan port back then and still is.

  • Arghaeri

    Hamel! Are you Aussies now using “magazine” as a verb? I’ll disembark at this stop — no telling where your train of thought is headed!

    Bad boy Hamel, you should know the correct american campaign to convert all nouns would result in

    magazinized

  • R. Elgin

    “Arghaeri”, just for the record, prostitution, especially here, is not really “honest work”, rather women are too often snared into it to pay off loans by loan shark criminal organizations, such as the Bongcheon Gang, who work in conjunction with local legitimate spas around Bongcheon Dong.
    They put women under mental intimidation and physical threat to work off the loan in these so-called legitimate spas, which offer their “extra service” along with the sports massage they run mostly in the evening. I personally know of one woman who is doing just this now and she does not have a bank account. All money goes straight to the spa and since she hangs out in the common spa area (jingilbang) and comes around only when her services are needed, the spa can not be held liable for having her on the payroll and, if caught, they can deny they even hired her. They taught the women some massage techniques to augment her sexual services too, just to put a shine on their legitimate services.

    Can you imagine the psychological damage that comes from this?

    Because of this, I will never, ever frequent a Korean spa here or elsewhere.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    i just saw lankovs name in the wsj. just saw sperwer’s name right here amongst the korea bashers. i report. you decide.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Why don’t you address the issues, gooseboy, instead of stooping to the usual ad hominem.

    BTW, on what subject was Lankov quoted in the WSJ?

  • RolyPoly

    I just found two interesting words in the Korean Slang dictionary.

    GerryBevers: someone who turns any topic into Dokto ownership topic
    ex) He played GerryBevers and turned an interesting topic into pro-Japanese propaganda.

    GerryBeverism: another word for obssessing with total nonsense
    ex) She practiced GerryBeverism and was known to lecture hours on the beneficial effect of drinking horse semen

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @98

    Just so, that’s what Lankov says and that’s the point (although as Lankov also says at that time the clientele was restricted to Japanese (although they did admit other foreigners.

    There’s another book by a distinguished Korean historian at Cambridge or Oxfordon early border contacts between the Japanese and Koreans that goes back to the earliest days of the Japanese trading entrepot in Busan, i.e., long, long before the 1880s, after relations were re-established in the aftermath of the Imjin Wars, in which he reveals that a significant area of tension involved Korean pimps smuggling Korean girls into the Japanese compound in violation of korean law.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    you aint credible. you mouth off here. lankov imparts knowledge via respectable publications. you dont. you get now? gooood!

  • Q

    Yuki Tanaka’s research “Japan’s Comfort Women (Asia’s Transformations)” has a chapter The Colonization of Korea and the Growth of the Prostitution Industry:

    One cannot sufficiently explain the establishment and operation of the comfort women system, in particular the sexual exploitation of Korean women in that system, by viewing it from the perspective of military history alone. It becomes comprehensible only when we examine how the trafficking of young women came to be widely practiced in Korea well before the military brothel system was established. This trafficking was a by-product of Japan’s various policies of colonizing the Korean peninsula.

    […]After the annexation, the Government-General of Korea was established as a colonial administrative organ, and the Governor-General was posted to control the entire affairs of Korea. It was stipulated by Imperial Ordinance that the Governor-General was to be selected from among the generals of the Japanese Imperial Army or Navy, and that he was to be directly responsible to the Emperor for administering Korean affairs as well as defending Korea. In other words, with the establishment of the Gevernment-General, Korean society was virtually placed under martial law.

    Aided by the military rule of the Government-General, Japan proceeded to transform the Korean economy. The most catastrophic change affecting social conditions in Korea was a new land ownership system, the result of a cadastral survey conducted between March 1910 and November 1918. Due to the loose nature of the traditional landholding system – which required no official registration – the newly introduced and complicated application system resulted in many illiterate peasants and petit-farmers losing their customary tenancy or land ownership rights. In contrast, the Korean upper-class landlords, called yangban, who knew how to get their land registered properly, benefited from the new system, thereby strengthening their contractual property rights. As a result, the commercial value of arable land increased. Large Japanese corporations, such as the Oriental Development Company, were given priority in purchasing the “public land.” It is said that the Oriental Development Company alone came to own more than 20 percent of the arable land in Korea. This drastic change to the landholding system, together with a high tenancy rate (55 percent of arable land), rapidly decreased the number of small, independent farmers and turned them into poverty-stricken peasants. It is estimated that about 80 percent of the Korean population was engaged in agriculture in this period. Therefore, the impact of this change to the landholding system on Korean society was considerable.

    From the late 1910s a large proportion of rice produced in Korea was exported to Japan, cutting sharply into the supply of rice available for local consumption. In addition, in the coming years, Korean agriculture was severely hit by bad weather. Almost every year between the late 1920s and the late 1930s Korea experienced weather problems which further impoverished the peasants. Many peasants lost their jobs. For example, in the mid-1930s, the unemployment rate in rural areas during the slack season was as high as 85 percent. In 1932, it was reported that there were more than 20,000 beggars in South Kyongsang Province alone. (Higuchi Yuichi, “Senjika no Chosen Nomin: Rison o Chushin ni” in Kikan Senso Sekinin Kenkyu, No.7, 1995, pp. 55-63; Yun Myeongsuk, “Nicchu Senso-ki ni okeru Chosenjin Guntai Ianfu no Keisei” in Chosen-shi Kenkyukai Rombun-shu, No. 32, 1994, pp.91-93). Excess labor in rural areas created a large influx of young men and women to cities. This trend of people seeking employment in the city brought chronic unemployment to urban areas as well.

    Many Koreans went to Japan to work as indentured laborers. They worked under extremely harsh conditions. These Korean workers also suffered racial discrimination by the Japanese. One of the most extreme and tragic cases was the massacre of Koreans by Japanese civilians immediately after the Great Kanto Earthquake, which hit the Tokyo and Yokohama regions on September 1, 1923. Many parts of Tokyo and Yokohama were consumed by fire caused by the earthquake (450,000 houses were destroyed) and more than 100,000 people died. In the midst of the chaos caused by this natural calamity, an utterly groundless rumor about Koreans was spread among Japanese civilians. Koreans were said to have poisoned the drinking water and to be preparing a large-scale political uprising. Many Japanese men, who believed this rumor, armed themselves with swords, bamboo spears and the like, and randomly attacked and killed Koreans. In Kanagawa prefecture, where Yokohama is located, 4,106 Koreans were killed. In Tokyo, the death toll of Koreans was 1,347.

    Despite such deep-rooted, intense, and widespread Japanese prejudice against Koreans, the number of Koreans crossing the Korea Strait to Japan in search of work continued to increase. They were driven by the severe depression in their homeland. By 1931, 300,000 Koreans had come to Japan. Seven years later 700,000 Koreans were working throughout Japan. The Government-General of Korea also encouraged Koreans to migrate Manchuria. By 1930, 1.3 million Koreans had moved to Manchuria. Most of them were engaged in rice production for export to Japan. (Ajia Minshu Hotei Jumbi-kai ed., Shashin Zusets: Nippon no Shinryaku (Otsuki Shoten, Tokyo, 1992) pp.80-82. For details of the history of Korean migrant workers in Japan, see Pak Kyonshiku, Chosenjin Kyosei Senko no Kiroku <Mirai-sha, Tokyo, 1965).

    In this way, a vast number of peasant-class men worked away from home, commonly for long periods. Young women, too, picked up odd jobs to support their peasant families. Thus, large-scale urban migration took place throughout Korea in the 1920s and 1930s. For example, according to a survey conducted by the tax department of Seoul Municipal Office, the city population increased by 9,488 in one year from the end of 1932. Of this number, 6,690 were Korean women.

    However, there were very few jobs in urban areas for uneducated, unskilled rural women. Most worked as low-paid factory workers, waitresses, barmaids, housemaids, nursemaids, and the like. Housemaids and nursemaids were mostly employed by Japanese families living in Korea. (By the early 1930s about half a million Japanese were living in Korea, and most of them were government bureaucrats, policemen, school teachers, factory managers and their families.) It is apparent that many young Korean women turned to prostitution to provide the essential income for their poverty-stricken families to survive. A series of articles entitled “Poverty makes prostitutes,” that appeared in September 1927 in the Korean newspaper Dongah Ilbo, clearly indicates this situation.

    It seems that many young women were sold to brothels in return for an advance payment to their families. Many married women also became prostitutes due to financial difficulties that arose while their husbands were working away from home. However, the amount of an advance paid for a Korean woman was far less than that paid for a Japanese woman. For example, in 1933, brothel owners in Inchon made an advance payment of between 200 and 700 yen for a Korean woman for a five-year contract, while between 700 and 25,00 yen was a usual amount paid for a Japanese woman. In other words, destitute Korean families had to sell their daughters to brothels even though the return was small. In short, brothel owners could “employ” several Korean women for the same cost as one Japanese woman. It was quite common also for owners of “restaurants,” “cafes,” and ‘bars,” who operated clandestine prostitution businesses, to pay far less – between 50 and 100 yen in advance – in order to employ Korean women under the pretence of being “waitresses” and “barmaids.” This “pricing mechanism,” which was closely interlinked with chronic poverty caused by colonization, seemed to be one of the main reasons for a rapid increase in the number of Korean prostitutes under Japanese rule.

    For more reading at google book: http://tinyurl.com/bpy8nrf

    For purchasing: http://www.amazon.com/Japans-Comfort-Women-Asias-Transformations/dp/0415194016

  • Q

    @ Prof. Hodges (#86)

    Thank you for the Q-tip! Some piles of seal skeleton were found buried IN Dokdo. :)

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @105

    still juking and jiving, eh gooseboy. 411: That’s what makes you not credible.

    And BTW i make my media appearances in Bloomberg magazine, where I limit my comments to things on which I am an expert.

    Still waiting for a substantive response to my argument regarding the lack of probative value of Lankov’s KT piece for the proposition for which WangKon wants to make it stand. But I won’t hold my breath. We all know your “contributions” are just kimchi farts

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    At least those poor creatures were given a decent burial. RIP, Dokdo Seals.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Q

    I generally don’t read your comments carefully, if at all, because your systematic anti-Japanese bias leads me to assume that your arguments such as they are will be flawed and too tedious to unravel. However, I would like to acknowledge your contribution in citing Tanaka’s book. I’m suspending judgment re what he seems to be saying as represented by you in the excerpt you posted, but I will read it. It’s been on my list for a long time, and your reference is a good reminder to get to it.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    lol! when bloomberg gets to the level of the nyt, the wsj, or time mag, i might find you more respectable. lankov a world class koreanist. you, otoh, are just an a§§hole looking for revenge. need i say more¿ btw, is your korean wife retired from the trade?

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    remember, folks, according to the expat, korean women are plsstic surgeried whores except their wives and girlfriends. what heroes!

  • Arghaeri

    Arghaeri”, just for the record, prostitution, especially here, is not really “honest work”……

    In that case you might as well say factory work is not honest work, because of illegal immigrant sweatshops.

    Or farmwork is not honest work because of illegal mexicans.

    We, see YB’s comment above, are talking about honest workers, who make their own choices. Trafficking and sexyal slavery are totally different issues.

    And seriously taking your single anecdote and extending it to a whole industry us fallacy indeed. If you want to play that game then I can cite personal friends in the industry who have never been forced in any way.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Thanks for demonstrating once again what a hateful, self-hating and utterly irredeemable little turd you are, Pow Pow.

  • SeoulFinn

    What Pawi just posted, especially about a Sperwer’s wife, was so uncalled for. Mr Koehler, I’d really like to know long you’ll allow insulting posts like these be posted on your blog?

  • broona

    Some women may have chosen to enter the profession, but that doesn’t make it an “honest” one. It’s pretty sad, actually. It isn’t a profession you would be happy to “profess” to anyone unless you were on a Jerry springer show.

  • YangachiBastardo

    and, so how come you keep getting married, the mist expensive way of getting sex known to man

    I neve claimed to be smart ;)

    Some women may have chosen to enter the profession, but that doesn’t make it an “honest” one. It’s pretty sad, actually. It isn’t a profession you would be happy to “profess” to anyone unless you were on a Jerry springer show.

    We live in a Jerry Springer world

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Sperwer @ 94,

    I guess it’s easier to obstruct than to accept, particularly if you don’t agree with somebody and don’t want to find/cite contradictory evidence yourself.

    Why don’t you contact Dr. Lankov directly at anlankov@yahoo.com and ask what sources he’s using. Given the space limitation, I’m sure he couldn’t have brought up or cite everything he wanted to in one KT article. It is unreasonable to expect that. At the same time, let the man defend himself too.

  • H.Schmidt

    #66

    Robert, why is Gerry still not banned?

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @118

    Sure, here’s the deal.

    I know Lankov slightly. The next time i meet him, I’ll have a chat with him; provided that in the meantime you stop citing as authority people whose arguments you not only cannot substantiate but apparently are unable to assess critically because they are so comforting for you to accept on faith. In the meantime , i will continue to “obstruct” ignorant, interested and/or prejudiced credulity, and to point out the flaws in thearguments such as Lankov’s, upon which such credulity feeds.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    BTW, what is it that you suppose I’m obstructing – the advance of the (unjustified) self-righteous falsification of history in the service of that weird miasma of victimization and vengeful triumphalism that masquerades as ” historical” knowledge back, back here in the ROK?

    And here I thought I was participating in a discussion, where one didn’t have to subscribe to any credal admonitions except to respect the procedural rules of argument

  • berto

    @115,
    the rule here is if you are korean, you can call another man’s wife a whore, but if you ban them, then you love japan.
    also, the more documentation and historical references one brings in, the more people can say that said person is bitter and had failed relationships.
    watch out for cooties.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Bingo

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    #111,

    Watch this! Watch this! My Robert Koehler imitation:

    Now, Pawi, play nice.

  • Arghaeri

    Some women may have chosen to enter the profession, but that doesn’t make it an “honest” one. It’s pretty sad, actually. It isn’t a profession you would be happy to “profess” to anyone unless you were on a Jerry springer show.

    I wouldn’t want to profess that I flip burgers for Lotteria, does that make flipping burgers dishonest.

    Your logic as with Elgin is astounding.

  • Arghaeri

    And the friend in question may be sad about her inabilty to obtain a an “honest” job in merchant banking but shows little inclunation to surrender the standard of living she has gotten used to.

  • jkitchstk

    Meanwhile back in Seoul, another 100+ rooms(brothel?), 400 female “staff”(prostitutes?) who entertain male “clients”(Johns?) investigated by prosecutors…
    ‘Making more than a living working nights’
    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2012/09/117_118775.html
    “Some of the details of the night-life business became open information when the owner of YTT filed a court complaint against the Gangnam Tax Office, charging that it was hit with an overtax of 1.7 billion won ($1.5 million).
    Among them, the 400 female staff registered earnings, based on credit card payments, reached 11.67 billion won ($10 million) between the second half of 2010 and the first half of 2011.
    Service charges on credit cards alone were 2,484 million won ($2.3 million) in January of last year.”

    I suspect nothing much will become of this other than a slap on the wrist after favors are done or pimps grease the law.

  • Arghaeri

    Not only that, but what exactly is dishonest about it per se; a simple trade of a service for cash. Seems far more “honest” than the “respectable” women looking for a “loving” relationship with a rich guy to support them until a better prospect comes along.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @122

    If you contest the Korean historiographical legendary orthodoxy, the typical tribal response, even if it very occasionally begins with reasoned discussion of the issues, invariably degenerates into questioning your motives or other forms of ad hominem abuse designed to avoid argument by shifting the perspective to one that underscores your difference/Otherness from the tribe represented by your failure to “accept” the chosenness of the tribe, your effrontery in challenging the flimsy rationalizations of its collective identity and your obduracy in obstructing its realization of its destiny. Does that particular social pathology seem familiar.

  • Arghaeri

    Making more than a living working nights

    if 10,000,000 in sales, i.e before costs, building rents and orher overheads, for 300 general employees, 50 senior hostesses and 400 other hostesses some what 13,000 USD per head is considered making more than a living, then they really should have a look at those engrishee teachers who really making the monte carlo money. :-)

  • Arghaeri

    and jstick why do you assume it a brothel and prostitutes, its much more likely a room salon business from the description.

  • provIdence

    @43
    “Japanese proverb: 嘘も百回繰り返せば真実になる (If you tell a lie big enough and repeated often, then people will believe it at the end.)”

    The said proverb appears more German than Japanese, i.e., The Goebbles doctrine (Repeat a lie hundred times, and it becomes truth.):
    http://bulliedacademics.blogspot.jp/2008/02/goebbels-doctrine.html

  • padaajoshi

    Isn’t prostitution legal in Australial?

    But, even if it is, that doesn’t mean squat. Koreans are supposed to live by the laws of Korea, even when living abroad. Otherwise, the guy who was reported to be seen smoking hash in Pakistan never would have been told to report to the local police office upon returning to South Korea.

  • Arghaeri

    Indeed Korea does, unusually in this day and age, apply its law extra-terratorially to its nationals.

    Although, saying that western countries are making more laws of late that apply extra-terratorialy e.g. the FCPA provision.