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BREAKING NEWS: Verdict in, and Samsung gets slaughtered

If you’re an Apple fanboy, or just really hate Samsung, it’s time to rejoice.

Samsung has gotten clobbered. To the tune of $1.05 billion.

There are a lot of reasons to dislike Samsung—especially if you live in Korea—but I don’t see how this is a good thing for the consumer or the IT industry as a whole.

On the bright side, at least the Korean court found in Samsung’s favor.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • cm

    They haven’t finished yet. The dollars are adding up in the tune of $1 billion a pop.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    This will be appealed (to state the obvious). I know nothing about law, patent rights, or tech stuff . . . but is Samsung really so crooked?

    Or is some aspect of this outcome due to an American jury doing the deciding? I ask in pure ignorance.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • DLBarch

    CM,

    I actually agree…the patent system is clearly broken, but that’s a separate issue.

    The question is whether Samsux broke the law as it’s written.

    The answer to that is, well, yeah, they did.

    DLB

  • DLBarch

    The jury came back in something like 21 hours.

    That suggests two things: Apple’s case was strong, and/or the jury wanted to go home for the weekend and not come back.

    DLB

  • DLBarch

    BTW, if you look at the jury verdict form, Apple did NOT get everything it wanted.

    It looks as though the jury actually distinguished among different products and different patents, which is encouraging.

    DLB

  • Uri Onara

    Oh come on. It is a good thing because shameless copying in any industry is a form of theft. As a long-term Korea watcher who personally owns many Samsung products and cheers the rise of Korean companies on the global stage, I cannot cheer corrupt business practices, which might have worked on the Asian home field, but cannot fly in the USA or be tolerated globally. Samsung knew the rules and chose to copy design and patented features right down to “Retina” level icons (naked eye cannot tell the difference). What’s up with that? Indeed, Samsung was at NO disadvantage whenever Apple entered the cell phone business from ZERO, but they could not play fair while Apple engineers simply did a better job. Apple may not need the money, but they deserved to win this one. I’ll concede that all cell phone users WANT Apple-like smartphone features, plus variety of choices, but without enforcement of existing laws what is to stop other state-coddeled companies that lack a concept of intellectual property to keep from ripping off Samsung itself in the global market? America’s Apple wins one for original research and design — its creativity — while all Asia learns a lesson in how to excel in the 21st century.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    I made the following prediction here:

    http://www.rjkoehler.com/2012/08/09/poor-samsung/#comment-486301

    “… at the end of the day I think this is what will happen. The courts will give Apple partial victory. Not in the shape of the damn thing. I hope to God that they don’t allow Apple to patent a freak’in rectangle with rounded edges and a black screen. I think they will give Apple a win in the look and feel of the user interface, as well as they should. This might mean around half of the settlement that Apple is seeking, about $1B to $1.5B. The judge will probably ask Samsung to change how their tablets look but won’t grant Apple a ban on either the tablets or its phones. This will be a slap in the wrist. It won’t be a thermonuclear result that the departed Steve Jobs was hoping for.”

    I was pretty much right on regarding the verdict on amount of damages (and I’m not even a lawyer!), but surprised and disappointed that the jury gave Apple’s design patents validity (especially patent #504,889). One should not be able to patent freaking rectangles. That’s just bull sh*t.

    Freakonomics (two best selling University of Chicago professors) agrees with me:

    http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/08/03/apple-vs-samsung-who-owns-the-rectangle/

  • cm

    Apparently pinch and zoom is now considered an illegal copy of iPhone?

    What happens to Android?

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    i would like to know the racial makeup of the jury. this aint the end of samsung so dont be too happy. if the jude bans galaxy phones apple is gonna pissb off boatloads of people. apple cant beat samsung with its products so it uses american law with biased jury to do what it cant do in the showrrom. lastly copying leads to innovation.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Look! It’s a patent for a rectangle with round corners!

    http://tinyurl.com/8o6gn2q
    http://tinyurl.com/95okep8

    Bull sh*t.

    Protecting this patent is total bull sh*t.

  • cm

    Just make the smartphones round or triangle. Or is that impossible?

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    I’ll give Apple pinch to zoom. I’ll give them that cool flipping thing and all the UI and software patents because they are REAL innovations… but patenting rectangles is bull sh*t.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    the round corners help protect the phone when its dropped. genius of apple. aint nobody would have thought of that! ridiculous!

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    This is a good example of why Korea doesn’t take Dokdo to the ICJ. Courts outside Korea want proof that an object (or island) originally belonged to the person or persons claiming it.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Pawi wrote (#9):

    i would like to know the racial makeup of the jury.

    Maybe you should be asking how many iPhone users were on the jury.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    we all know that korea bashers will be splattering all over their screens but they should be careful in getting too giddy. if apple gets the galaxy phone banned, its gonna piss off lots of people because apple is trying to limit the choices of the american consumer. i wont be buying an apple to replace my samsung. this is gonna backfire on apple.

  • cm

    pawi, you won’t have a choice if you live in the US. You have to buy the iPhone if you want a smartphone. lol… just kidding.. well not really, if they really do get successful and get all the android phones banned in the US.

  • http://humesbastard.wordpress.com/ Hume’s Bastard

    I have some questions for Brendon Carr.

    1. Samsung lost big in the U.S. Apple and Samsung both were fined in South Korea. I believe there was a case in Germany recently, but I don’t recall the details. Is there a clearinghouse for all these fines? All the various verdicts seem to “push-pull”.

    2. Do these various verdicts have international authority, or just national? Obviously, a decision in the U.S. affects a large market. Does the California verdict affect, say, Britain?

    @#16: You can buy a Nokia Lumia or Sony Xperia Arc, which have a anti-cloning agreements with Apple. It’s possible that these verdicts will encourage companies to create design innovations, to avoid Apple’s legal team.There might be as many consumers who hate Apple as those hating Samsung, and Nokia might now be able to carve out a real niche in the smartphone market.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    its honna create a pr problem for apple if they get the phones banned because they will diminish choicees for consumers. galaxe phones are hot and i really dont care who copied what. i dont like apple because it onky accepts apple media like mp4. i wanted the samsung because it accepts all formats. apple should be careful here. lg may benefit.

  • iMe

    How the hell is Samsung a Korean company? Most of their stocks are owned by foreigners! I personally own 100 shares of their common stocks but I’m happy as hell that this happened. I want Samsung to innovate and lead not blatantly copy and follow. Still long Samsung. They’ll survive. That said, this Galaxy crap I’m using to post this really, really sucks. Where’s my iPad?

  • Uri Onara

    Pawi wrote (#9):
    “i would like to know the racial makeup of the jury.”

    Well, let’s hear your definition of race. Exactly how many races are there anyway? And while you are at it, are Koreans members of the same category as Japanese and Chinese? It is a pretty slippery concept… socially constructed… and utterly meaningless. Ethnicity may be a different matter, but I am sure they were all US citizens. That’s all that mattered. Samsung lawyers had just as much say as Apple there.

  • http://ulsanonline.com martypants

    It’s so funny that in the USA Apple wins. But here in Korea, Samsung wins.
    Makes me wonder if there might, just maybe, be a little national pride going on in both places

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358404577609154169601924.html

  • RolyPoly

    I bet over 70% of Samsung shares are owned by the Japanese or Koreans who are the front for the Japanese.

  • jlee

    Apparently, the $1bb number includes Samsung products found to have infringed. Surely, that number is coming down.

  • jkitchstk

    #19 Pawi,
    ” i really dont care who copied what”

    Yeah, you and Samsung both.

    Robert,
    “…but I don’t see how this is a good thing for the consumer or the IT industry as a whole.”

    Really, not even one possible how? How about these hows: 1) It will make it more difficult for companies like Samsung to intentionally confuse customers. 2) If you got what you wanted-Samsung win- there would have been a Come-N-Get-Your-New-Creations-Here attitude which would have stymied innovation, thus consumers.

  • DLBarch

    WK,

    I have no idea why you’re so upset about the ’889 patent. (I count THREE separate comments above, @ 7, 10, and 12.).)

    Apple did not win on this claim. The jury found no infringement.

    Have you even LOOKED at this decision? Jeesh!

    DLB

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    judt me and samsung? most americans dont give a sheis. i got a samsung for the things that apple dont do ie lg screen and format options. samsung will prevail in the end. they make products. jkits ch, u miserable in korea? you are? so what?!

  • R. Elgin

    Considering all the rulings, maybe Korean Galaxy S(teal) owners should file a class-action suit against Samsung for being arrogant and greedy.

  • R. Elgin

    . . . but then, why is justice SO different in America as compared to the Korean decision???

  • DLBarch

    BTW, for anyone not already tired of this thread, two (or three) things to look for in the coming weeks, aside of the inevitable appeal by Samsung.

    First, since Samsung was found to have knowing and willingly infringed Apple’s various patents, expect Judge Koh to impose special damages, which technically could go as high as $3 billion.

    Second, expect Judge Koh to issue permanent restraining orders on sales of the various Samsung products at issue to replace the temporary restraining orders currently in effect.

    Finally, keep in mind that interest accrues on this verdict despite any appeal. If the appeal fails, Samsung is on the hook for a bit more than the numbers discussed above.

    …because I know you were all dying to know.

    DLB

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    DLBarch (#30),

    If damages as high as $3 billion are imposed, then expect Judge Koh to be excommunicated from Korean ethnicity.

  • Q

    지비버 신났네.

  • cm

    “Does the California verdict affect, say, Britain?”

    It was only about a month ago when Britain awarded the judgement to Samsung by forcing Apple to write “Samsung did not copy Apple because it’s not as cool as Apple”. Or something like that.

  • DLBarch

    The decision today in U.S. (i.e., federal) district court in San Jose does not effect any of Apple’s other international litigation. Those are completely separate jurisdictions, with their own national laws.

    The decision does apply nationwide in the United States, though. This is not a Northern District of California-only holding by any means.

    DLB

  • Yu Bum Suk

    It’s a bad day for consumers, if nothing else.

  • jkitchstk

    #35,
    More Samsung innovation, variety in the marketplace and less copycatting sounds like a consumer win to me.

  • cm

    The biggest loser I see here is not Samsung, but it’s Google.
    Samsung can just jump ship and start offering Windows phones. Now that Android is under attack, no phone manufacturers will be too confident on Android.

  • cm

    #34, isn’t that Apple’s home town, San Jose? How is it that they picked jurors from Apple’s home town? What happens in the appeal? Who decides the appeal?

  • cm

    This editorial from Robert Barr, executive director of the Center for Law and Technology at the University of California, sounds like this result will change the face of the smartphone industry in the US, in favor of Apple and Microsoft, with Android in serious trouble.

    —————————-
    Each of the patents cover a particular feature of the iPhone and the iPad. You can still make a smartphone, like the Microsoft Windows phone made by Nokia. It has a different look than the iPhone, different appearance and different features. That would be an example that is unaffected by this. The important thing here is that Apple’s patents were upheld as valid. Other companies are going to have to avoid the patents or license them. Even though this jury upheld them, other companies still get a shot. They can come in with new evidence and attack them. You have to have new reasons and new evidence.

    The amount of damages is extraordinary. A billion dollars in damages is extra. It’s one of the biggest patent verdicts ever. That’s a huge amount of damages. And the judge has to now decide whether to increase that for the wilfulness. And the judge could increase that as much as triple. The judge has to still decide if there will be an injunction against future sales or a recall of product.

    Even though people can come back and attack them, they are going to need new evidence and it’s going to be difficult.

  • DLBarch

    One last point to make here, comrades, and it’s kinda obvious, but just so everyone’s on the same page.

    The name of the game with patents isn’t really exclusion or market control. It’s licensing.

    Samsung (and others) can still do their thing — no one’s getting pushed out of the smartphone or tablet market — they just need to license (i.e., actually, you know, pay for) those patents necessary to do so legally.

    Believe me, Samsux is gonna be around for a loooooong time. And Apple’s gonna get a little bit richer in the process.

    DLB

  • cm

    Then I’ll just have to make sure it’s a Windows 8 phone. I don’t mind some of my money going to Microsoft, but I’m not giving a penny to Apple.

  • Zonath

    What happens in the appeal? Who decides the appeal?

    This one belongs to the Federal Circuit, I believe, which is one of the more interesting courts to watch.

  • Bendrix

    How come Braun never sued Apple? And why did LG drop its case against Apple over the Prada?

  • cm

    According to Chosun Ilbo, Samsung guilty infractions include multi-touch, pinch and zoom, and design patents. My question is what more can you do to design a smartphone if it can’t do multi-touch, and do pinch and zoom? Aren’t those basic functions of a smartphone that any phones cannot possibly leave out? How does Windows get away from not violating these new Apple edict?

  • raintree_leaf

    #44
    Why aren’t phones smart and doing multi touch and pinch and zoom before apple. Copycats often convince themselves they copy because there are no other ways to do a certain thing. Maybe they are too lazy to think.

  • Zonath

    How does Windows get away from not violating these new Apple edict?

    They license. The two companies cross-license so much it’s like they’re married.

  • iMe

    whoever said that google will be the biggest loser is spot on. and whoever said that its a bad day for consumers is also spot on.

    patent/copyright laws are job & innovation killers. as are lawyers.

  • http://www.chinasmack.com/tag/funny/page/3 Jakgani

    as a former iPhone user – who replaced his phone for a Samsung Note – (which I love much more than the iPhone) – I actually feel sorry for Samsung.

    I wish Samsung didn’t have to pay such a HUGE fine – their phones are actually easier for me to use than iPhone – with more apps that I like using – so I feel they did me a big favor making the phones better than apple.

    why punish them?

  • cm

    I think you need to give up your phone, it’s found to be an illegal.

    But seriously, I don’t think this will effect Samsung at all. A billion or two or three is not even a dent in their financial statement. But it could be a blessing in disguise for Samsung if all the other Android makers go out of business because they can’t pay the royalty to Apple and survive. Could this consolidate the phone industry into two manufacturers, Apple and Samsung?

  • Arghaeri

    Or is some aspect of this outcome due to an American jury doing the deciding? I ask in pure ignorance.

    Isn’t a jury supposed to be made up of ones peers, so why aren’t motoral, google, sony, htc, et al on the jury?

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    DLB,

    That was my gut reaction after hearing that “most” or “virtually all” of Apple’s patents are being enforced. I don’t know where to find the specifics like you can.

    I just don’t like design patents. I like more value-added, tech oriented patents. I don’t like patents on basic functionality because I think they inhibit free market economics and real innovation.

    What would the world be if someone had an enforceable patent that cars can have four wheels or a computer can have a monitor or if only one company could make TVs that were square/rectangular? If only one company could monopolize that, then it’s the consumer who loses.

    As I said before, I think Apple should get something for its GUI and software aesthetics and I’m glad they did.

    On an outside note, I wonder if Samsung will be granted an appeal? If so, could they forgo a jury trial?

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    cm,

    $1B would be 6-7% of Samsung Electronic’s profits for projected 2012. Not bad, not good. I’m not sure if they need to pay it all this year or they could get a bond to pay it out over a few years.

    If this means that Samsung will be forced to think smart and develop some real software and UI expertise then it could be a long term win for them too. Remember, Samsung had the opportunity to buy Android four years ago, but they failed to have the vision to do that. Maybe perhaps now they will have better vision to be trailblazers rather than fast followers?

  • Arghaeri

    i would like to know the racial makeup of the jury.

    Well they’re all Americans! Isn’t that enough to make your point without bringing race into it.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Free market dynamics means that companies not only learn from their successes, but also their failures.

    I am worried about a few things regarding Apple. Their product cycle is way too long. It takes them 18 months to come up with new products. They need real competition to shorten this up because 18 months to get the iPhone 4 to iPhone 4s is BS. Taking over two years to make a smaller iPad (like 7 inches) is too long too. Someone needs to make them honest competitors and make them exert themselves. I think this inhibits free market movement. Only through company exertion is when technology moves forward at the pace it should.

    The arrogance they are exhibiting sometimes towards consumers and market dynamics reminds me of Microsoft of the 90′s.

  • cm

    I own a software company and this could be exciting for me with this decision. I need to investigate how I can patent a lot of my company’s software design in the US, and potentially earn millions of free money by parking my patents there. I’m betting a lot of the stuff that software coders take for granted, are not even patented.

  • Arghaeri

    How the hell is Samsung a Korean company?

    Right, so IMe buys a house in France and it miraculously becomes an amrican house because its 100% owned by IMe. Sound!!

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    cm,

    That’s why the patent system in the U.S. needs reform. But patents cost money too. You need to make one with a lawyer. If you’re a small company then that’s gonna be expensive for revenue you may never see.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    … you also need to monitor and defend. That takes money too. A company like Apple has all the money it need to patent, then monitor and then defend, if need be. Lawyers (especially good ones) are freak’in expensive.

  • Arghaeri

    patent/copyright laws are job & innovation killers. as are lawyers.

    Eh, in these modern days it takes heavy investment in research to come up with new technology, so who’s gonna bother to innovate if everyone else can steal that immediately for free.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Arghaeri,

    Tell that to China!

  • Awarren

    “How the hell is Samsung a Korean company?”

    Why don’t you ask the 1000s of miserable non-Korean (yes – ethnicity is involved in this) saps working in Samsung’s overseas subsidiaries who can never rise above middle management, or even those few token foreign Director/VP (in name only) suck-ups when the they know the masters are out of ear-shot. Yes, Samsung is a KOREAN company.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Awarren,

    That’s okay. These fellas will build their resumes at Samsung then take their expertise to Haier, Intel, HP, Infosys, HCL or elsewhere where they can move up and their expertise they build at Samsung will get lost. However, one cannot do this too quickly. LG tried to move a lot of foreigners up the ranks and it may have resulted in their management moving slower as a company, to the great detriment of their competitiveness and bottom line.

  • TonyK

    @9: seriously, race is the first place you go? Sheesh. Look up Bill Lee from WilmerHale, Apple’s lead counsel. And Samsung’s counsel were all white.

    @38: the case ended up more or less randomly in SJ, if usual practice was being followed. NDCA has three divisions: SF, Oakland, SJ. When a case comes in, it goes on an “assignment wheel” and goes to any judge in the district. Certain judges may choose to take on patent cases, but I don’t know that was the case here.

    In addition to requests for additional damages and injunctions, I am sure that there will be a multitude of post-trial motions. Only after that will it go to the Federal Circuit, which is where all patent appeals go.

  • TonyK

    @58:no kidding about the expense. Each side’s monthly expenses are easily going to hit $1.5 mil starting the month before through the month after. Think about it: each side had at least 4 (presumably) senior partners, each billing over 1000/hour, I figure. Now add in junior partners, associates, staff, translators, and account for that, during trial, 20+ hour days are not uncommon, including weekends.

  • Awarren

    WangKong,

    There are very few foreigners who have built worthwhile expertise at Samsung. Sure, 2-4 years at Samsung will not kill the career of anyone bright and ambitious, but anything more than that can make it very difficult for a person to slip back into the real world.

    Yeah, I have heard many times about foreigners slowing down a Korean company’s speed, but I think it is more the case of Korean companies refusing to change. Can you imagine what it would have been like for the few mid-level design foreigners who might have witnessed the first “strategy” meetings at Samsung HQ after the iPhone came out? Something like – “Holy sh..! How can Samsung get away with this?” Well, it appears Samsung has not.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Awarren,

    To that I say Samsung could have been like LG and missed the smartphone revolution all together:

    http://www.rjkoehler.com/2010/09/18/lg-group-ceo-canned-due-to-the-iphone/

    http://www.rjkoehler.com/2010/09/18/lg-group-ceo-canned-due-to-the-iphone/#comment-392144

    That would have been a worse outcome.

    Corporate culture is a delicate thing, but very important nonetheless.

  • jkitchstk

    #9,
    “i would like to know the racial makeup of the jury”

    Would you like their names/addresses too so you can start a witch hunt, isn’t the judge’s name enough?

    Photo:
    Busted! Kate Upton(Sports Illustrated Cover Swimsuit Model) Caught Using iPhone At Samesung Launch Event
    http://www.businessinsider.com/kate-upton-brings-iphone-to-galaxy-note-launch-event-2012-8

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    i asked about the racial makeup of the jury not the lawyers. my assumption was that they were either all white or mostly white. i want to know about the racial makeup of the jury. the trial held here with asians a plenty. i want to know how many asians were on that jury and how many whites were on that jury. apple’s not too far from here. we have to consider some type of bias and/or nationalism based on the composition of the jury. it’s a legitimate question.

    billion dollar reward. gonna be a long time before apple sees an of that. they may live to rue the day they did this because this is going to light a fire under the ass of people who happen to be korean. that’s bad news for apple; the koreans play for keeps. they’re going to do what they need to do and what to do is very clear. they have the money to do it. apple may rue the day they realize they made koreans into innovators. that’s the last thing they should want.

  • wcy1

    As predictable as one can be, only gbevers is capable of associating Samsung’s legal battle with Apple in the US to Isle of Dokdo. I’m amazed he did not associate the Korea’s “Comfort Women” issue to the smart phone argument. Amazing…..

  • wcy1

    administrator,

    why delete my comment? For stating the obvious? Pointing out the leeches who have no purpose in life except to live off making critical comments about the culture you adopted? Since you’re in the position to do so, why don’t you review all his comments at your blog? Isn’t it obvious, it’s all about Dokto and comfort women, fighting tooth and nail to denegrate one people over others?

  • YangachiBastardo

    @ 39&40

    guys your comments seem to contradict themselves there, so what is gonna happen ? Does samsung seriously risk to have their products banned from the American market or they will simply have to pay a licensing fee ? Who will determine such fee ? How this sentence will affect other Android-based products ?

    Thanks for your help

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    wcy1,

    I didn’t delete your comment. For some reason, it was flagged for moderation. Did you change your login info?

  • YangachiBastardo

    I am worried about a few things regarding Apple. Their product cycle is way too long. It takes them 18 months to come up with new products. They need real competition to shorten this up because 18 months to get the iPhone 4 to iPhone 4s is BS. Taking over two years to make a smaller iPad (like 7 inches) is too long too. Someone needs to make them honest competitors and make them exert themselves

    Well to my salesman eyes Apple has never been really a tech company, it’s mostly a fashion accessories company: from an anayst point of view i think their multiples should be compared to the likes of Coach, Whole Foods, BMW and Prada.

    Totally different companies of course, but chasing the same discretionary (borrowed) dollars of the same demographics.

    How long they can abuse their brand with impunity and arrogance remain to be seen, coolness doesn’t last forever.

    PS

    I know you guys will think i’m an idiot, but i’m convinced that behind Apple roaring success there has been a veneer of Western nationalism, as people could finally buy consumer electronics that LOOKED cool and fresh and young and were not Asian

  • YangachiBastardo

    BTW We did a worldwide patent in Munich, Germany. It does cost 3k a year for the first 3 years, then the cost will shoot up to 90k a year.

    Considering the life cycle of our products, we wont need it anymore, after the first 3 years.

    Monitoring and enforcing costs are a different story: we mostly did this patent thing for commercial reasons, as distributors feel obviously more comfy selling a product patented worldwide

    (They do a good job themselves monitoring the competition for us)

  • http://bcarr.com Brendon Carr

    Well to my salesman eyes Apple has never been really a tech company, it’s mostly a fashion accessories company: from an anayst point of view i think their multiples should be compared to the likes of Coach, Whole Foods, BMW and Prada.

    To my eyes Apple is a software company. Without NeXTStep to replace Mac OS 9, none of Apple’s current success would have been possible. NeXTStep became Mac OS X, which became the iOS which powers iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV.

    The software is so good, it enables the vendor of Apple hardware (Apple) to command margins approaching (exceeding, in some cases) 50% in an industry where others are lucky to get 2%.

  • cm

    @YangachiBastardo, I don’t think # 39 and #40 are contradictory.

    It’s simple really. If you want to make a smartphone, it has to be Windows 8 phone, and give a little bit of money for cross licensing to Microsoft. If you want to make a smartphone with Android, you have to give a little bit of money to Apple for cross licensing so that Apple doesn’t sue you.

    But I think the problem is this. Samsung can afford the cross licensing, but for smaller phone makers like HTC, LG, Motorola etc, are in big trouble. Their bottom lines on the phones have been bad, I don’t think they can afford to either jack up their prices or pay patent money to Apple and still make money. They can risk a lawsuit and not make a deal with Apple, but with Samsung’s defeat, they are risking a lot.

    I think RIM (Research in Motion), makers of Blackberry is an interesting question. RIM better be careful here because they are about to release the Blackberry 10 O/S which reportedly does multi touch, pinch and zoom, and all the other jazz that could make their software look like another Android, which Apple may use to attack. A lawsuit against RIM by Apple may be the final nail in the coffin for this Canadian company which has seen its market share plummet with Apple and Android phones becoming popular. But if RIM can some how avoid the lawsuit with Apple, I think with Google Android phones struggling, there maybe an opening for RIM to sneak into that smartphone race and reemerge as a force again.

  • cm

    Wait until Monday, Apple stocks should soar again.

  • silver surfer

    If only Samsung could have been somewhat less blatant about it. But I suppose the likely sales outcomes all figured into their calculus when they made the decision. Perhaps it’s worth the billion to them.

  • http://vmphotography.com.au hoju_saram

    To my eyes Apple is a software company. Without NeXTStep to replace Mac OS 9, none of Apple’s current success would have been possible. NeXTStep became Mac OS X, which became the iOS which powers iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV.

    The software is so good, it enables the vendor of Apple hardware (Apple) to command margins approaching (exceeding, in some cases) 50% in an industry where others are lucky to get 2%.

    The only experience I’ve had with Mac software is the Ipad 2. The ipad itself works very well, but offers users very few options for customization. It’s easy to create software that has few bugs when you offer few options. It’s akin to selling a car without a steering column, and saying it doesn’t have loose steering.

    When I try to attach the device to a PC, I need to use iTunes. And iTunes is one of the worst pieces of software junk on the market. It’s so bad I now completely avoid plugging it in: whenever I do, it erases all my wife’s podcasts and other downloads, and takes me an age to update (a prerequisite to adding anything on it). Nor am I the only one who has issues with it.

    Recently I connected my wife’s iPad to our Mac at home to add some videos for my kids to watch. The iPad had never been synced with the Mac before, because it was using iCloud and the App Store. The moment I plugged it in, iTunes attempted to sync its own parallel collection of apps to this iPad, which I didn’t want. When I tried to turn off this feature, it offered me a decision I’d never seen before: To delete all the apps on the iPad, or keep them and stop syncing. The second option was exactly what I wanted to do. So I chose it, and watched as iTunes proceded to delete all the apps on the iPad anyway.

    Yep, my experience exactly. I know I’ve said it before, but the day Apple lets me drag and drop and use their products the way I want and actually updates jail-house software that was awful a decade ago, is the day I’ll start to take Apple seriously. They might also want to look at keeping up with hardware design, broadband compatibility, ease off on service-pack gouging (I’m not even going to mention regional pricing for apps), and try to court software developers a bit more aggressively (especially in the bare-cupboards games department). Oh, and bring prices down, by about 50%. Until then, I’m with Yangachi: Apple has no advantage over PCs, except by dint of cosmetic design.

  • http://bcarr.com Brendon Carr

    i asked about the racial makeup of the jury not the lawyers. my assumption was that they were either all white or mostly white. i want to know about the racial makeup of the jury.

    pawikirogii — CNET is less concerned with race than you are, but has published an interesting article about the composition of the jury in the Apple-Samsung dispute.

  • YangachiBastardo

    CM: thanks for your explanation, so no Samsung products ban coming up ? That’s the point i didn’t get.

    If that was the case, is it really gonna prevent Android from taking an even bigger market share ? To my pretty confused ears sounds like a very partial victory for Apple: they will see some not insignificant but definitely not life-changing cash down the road (when probably the objet de contendre will be obsolete btw), while in the meantime the de facto duopoly persist.

  • YangachiBastardo

    Along the same lines of reasoning, the turn out could be even good for Samsung in the medium term: if other less profitable Android players can’t squeeze the money out to pay Apple, very likely Samsung will be even more dominant in the Android world.

    What they will come out of one pocket to pay Apple, they will get in the other pocket from the HTC and the LG of this world (imho they will exit the phone market pretty soon). Unless they turn to a less greedy Microsoft and switch to Windows 8 for their own survival.

    I may be wrong but it seems like the critical mass of Android is too much right now to allow a third eco-systtem to compete

    Hoju: good point and that’s why the lads are so rabidly selling the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (iCloud) which has btw enormous margins.

    I’ll be curious to see what happens to the consumer tech market though when buying, renovating, mantaining and playing with a fleet of smart&tabs will cost the median household of 4 something like 10% of their net annual income

  • cm

    #82, which I’ve already mentioned. I think this could be a two way horse all the way now, with Apple and Samsung. All the rest who are bleeding money already, will now either have to risk a lawsuit, or pony up to either Apple or Microsoft. At least in the US market that is. Considering how nasty this fight has been, what are the chances of Samsung pulling all their phones out of the US market in protest instead of they paying Apple off? I think Samsung must be exasperated by the fact none of their technology patent violent claims against Apple were even considered.

    As for silver surfer’s post,

    ” If only Samsung could have been somewhat less blatant about it.”

    Well, if you can’t do multi touch, nor pinch and zoom without violating Apple’s patents, that’s pretty tough, if not impossible.

  • cm

    This was written before the court result, but it illustrates what’s going to happen to the smart phone industry. Apple will have an improved bargaining position, which could jack up the price that they wanted from Samsung as licensing fee – making Samsung to abandon Android.
    All the rest of the smaller makers are gonna have to stop production or jump ship to Microsoft too, as Apple sues everybody and anybody that makes a smartphone with Android. This indeed is a landmark case for technology.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-57500005-501465/apple-v-samsung-whats-the-worst-that-could-happen/

  • RolyPoly

    Samsung should have prepared for this. It should have spent billions to promote its image at where the trial took place. Build a baseball stadium, own a basketball team, give out some eletronics to the locals.

    You cannot just take. You have to an ambassador.

    The US army was given some chocolates to give to the locals during Korean war.

    You have to get people to like you before you can sell your stuff.

  • cm

    I didn’t know Microsoft had a cross licensing fee with Apple, to allow Microsoft to design software that doesn’t look like Apple.

    http://www.geekwire.com/2012/apple-says-microsoft-patent-deal-forbids-design-cloning/

    hmmm… Microsoft’s UI can’t look like the Apple IOS, but they still need to pay the royalty licensing fee to allow them to design software that don’t look like Apple IOS.

    I need to buy Apple stocks right now, I think it’s going to double again.

  • YangachiBastardo

    cm: so this is thermo-nuclear or not ? Can Apple ask whatever they want as a lincensing fee ? Let’s say they start charging ebsorbitant amounts of money, effectively destroying the Android market, Wouldn’t that be considered market abuse and lead to an anti-trust case ?

    Will Google throw away potentially huge revenues like that ?

    As i said i’m really confused

  • YangachiBastardo

    And if practical effects in the near term apparently won’t amount to much… by the time this charade will be over, i was wondering if Android won’t be so different to actually render this trial meaningless

  • JW

    CM

    Goodness gracious, as a potential investor you’re a little late to the party don’t ya think? Hindsight is 20/20 but man…it still feels to me like if you didn’t buy apple stock starting at some point last year when mainstream media started crowing about how popular their products are in China…that’s really not…good.

  • cm

    YangachiBastardo, Apple may argue charging $40 a handset to Samsung is a fair price, not an act of anti-trust case. I don’t know much about Samsung’s pricing strategy, but if this price wipes out Samsung’s profit on the handsets, I see no reason why Samsung can stick with Android. They maybe forced to go Microsoft in a huge way, and pay $15 for the handsets (or whatever the deal with Microsoft is).

    This is good news for Microsoft definitely, and Apple’s as well, who also takes a pie out of Microsoft’s sales. Whichever Samsung decides to go, Apple will always take a big chunk of the pie.

    If Microsoft Windows 8 fails to impress the consumers, Samsung will lose, but then Apple still wins.

  • cm

    #89, JW, hindsight 20/20, I was listening to all the experts who said the Apple stocks were plateued, that it will only go down. Boy are they wrong. It’s still not too late though, so come Monday you know what I’ll be doing..

  • cm

    This new RIM phone which is on development looks awsome.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fzFyKzD3K0&feature=player_embedded

    It’s run by QNX, and RIM says they are ready to start licensing to other manufacturers, including Samsung.

    http://business.financialpost.com/2012/08/13/rim-chief-heins-confirms-blackberry-10-soon-ready-to-license/

    But I wonder if they’re not jumping into a hot fire with Apple’s patent fight.

  • PineForest

    Apple’s counsel didn’t pull any punches after the decision:

    “In a statement after the verdict, Apple said, “We are grateful to the jury for their service and for investing the time to listen to our story and we were thrilled to be able to finally tell it. The mountain of evidence presented during the trail showed that Samsung’s copying went far deeper than even we knew … We applaud the court for finding Samsung’s behavior willful and for sending a loud and clear message that stealing isn’t right.”

  • Q

    Apple’s next patent infringement lawsuit would be targeting Korean company Sempio’s canned sesame leaves.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    And well it should target Sempio! Look at those rounded corners! Not to mention the sound quality. Why, anyone who can’t hear the similarity has a tin ear! Apple will win this next suit quicker than you can say, “Open Sesame.”

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    Thanks, Q, that was actually amusing. Did you find that pic here: http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=jeaoy&logNo=80109632713&categoryNo=42&viewDate=&currentPage=1&listtype=0&from=postList

    HJH: The less said the better.

  • http://vmphotography.com.au hoju_saram

    I think this video is worth a watch right about now.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    But less is more, Hamel! There’s simply no escape from this vicious circle jerk!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    I wish there was.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    I also wish there were, but one can’t square the circle with commensurability.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    Samsung’s potential avenues of recourse:

    http://tinyurl.com/9qxcm8s

  • hamel

    Prescriptivist pedant.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Alluring alliteration, Heer Hamel!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Creo69

    Whether it is the case in Korea or the one in the US it is hard to eliminate an element of nationalism to some degree. This battle between these two countries is being waged in several countries though and from an article I read it seems Samsung is losing it in other countries as well….more than Apple. Anyone can correct me if they know better.

    Some on this blog will still say that this is occuring because these other countries are afraid of corporate America retaliating but that is bullshit. I think over time Samsung will lose this case in several different countries in the world. Like others have stated, they will pay the license fees owed and move on. Samung is a very creative company and they are killing it in several different product markets. Even 3 billion isn’t going to stop them. By the way, my Galaxy Tab is the best toy I have ever owned :-)

  • Arghaeri

    I think this video is worth a watch right about now.

    Cartier? Rolex, Timex?

  • Arghaeri

    Arghaeri,

    Tell that to China!

    Why are they innovating, and giving their ideas away for free.

    Thats strange cos I heard they are one of the leading applicants for patents these days.

  • Arghaeri

    Samung is a very creative company and they are killing it in several different product markets

    80% of their profits are in smartphones, without those they are in freefall.

  • Arghaeri

    There you have it Pawi, ag least a whopping 33% of the jury were asian ethnicity.

    Of course they were still I assume 100% US nationals.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    just as creo said; there might be nationalism on both sides. trial held a few miles from darth apple. foreman said he wanted to punish samsung. the jury all white even though whites are the minority here. apple won and didnt need to travel far to hear the ‘good news’.

  • Creo69

    ” 80% of their profits are in smartphones, without those they are in freefall.”

    Which is exactly why Samsung wil pay a small licensing fee for the technology Apple developed. Their profits will be a bit lower than normal per unit and life will go on.

    As far as the issue with Samsung copying the shape of Apple products…Samsung will simply make a new line of phones shaped like “Dokdo” and sales will skyrocket.

  • Creo69

    Furthermore, the Japanese will all claim the “Dokdo” phones belong to Japan and every Japanese citizen will buy one just to spite Koreans further bolstering Samsung’s share of the smart phone market.

  • bumfromkorea

    Furthermore, the Japanese will all claim the “Dokdo” phones belong to Japan and every Japanese citizen will buy one just to spite Koreans further bolstering Samsung’s share of the smart phone market.

    And vice versa. Looks like you got yourself a helluva marketing scheme – thinking about working for Samsung with that one?

  • Arghaeri

    Just a few minir makerung issues to resolve, the Dokdo branded phone for korea, the Takeshima branded one for Japan, and maybe an international model fir everywhere else, the Shitehawk Shitcovered rock in the Middle of Nowhere Branded phone…

  • http://bcarr.com Brendon Carr

    the jury all white even though whites are the minority here. apple won and didnt need to travel far to hear the ‘good news’.

    pawikirogii — You’re full of shit about the “all-white jury”. Did you not even read the article I linked specifically for your reference, you hysterical prat?

    CNET reports three of nine jurors were immigrants to the United States: two from the Philippines, one from India. I suppose it’s possible that those three were white colonialists, fleeing like Rhodesians, but given that juror “Manuel Ilagan” (if that is his real name) is speaking to the press I doubt it. Further, while the article makes no reference to the race of these immigrants nor to the race of any other juror, it is not safe to presume that no mention means “white”.

  • YangachiBastardo

    So well i’ll ask another time…what is the most likely scenario:

    1) Apple impose a reasonable licensing fee, Samsung lives easily with it and over the medium term this outcome turns out to be actually good as smaller Android competitors can’t pay hence enlarging Samsung market share even more (what they pay to Apple they will more than make up for thanks to an increased market share)

    2) Apple goes thermonuclear on Android, imposing exorbitant fees (can they do that ?) on competitors, effectively wiping out the viability of this OS. Manufacturers in order to compete have to turn to Microsoft (Apple&Microsoft axis against Google ?)

    3) All this won’t matter that much cos by the time the sentence become effective, after appealing and counter appealing, Android will have been highly innovated so there will be no issues

  • Arghaeri

    brendon, not to mention that I repeated that 33% were asian from your link in the comment immediately preceding pawi’s “all white” claim.

    Although to be fair as a lawyer you should know that your evidence only signifies a strong probability they were asian since it only says they were born in asia not that they are not white.

  • tinyflowers

    No surprise on the verdict since there was zero chance Samsung would get any semblance of a fair trial just miles away from Apple’s HQ, and with almost every American owning Apple shares in one form or another.

    What was surprising was how quickly the Jury reached its verdict, not even sandbagging a bit to give the pretense of a thorough and fair deliberation. They supposedly went through over 100 pages of highly technical jury instructions and 700 individual questions in just 21 hours. I guess they wanted to get an early start on the weekend.

    As it turns out, they didn’t really follow their instructions at all:
    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390

    And while the jury was busy pulling dollar figures out of the air for trivial things like “bounce-back”, “pinch-to-zoom” and “a colorful grid of icons”, they chose to completely ignore Samsung’s patents for essential 3G telecommunications technology. I’ve served on a jury and I really want to believe that the system works. That’s it’s fair and just to all parties and it’s not some kangaroo court determined by a lawyer’s oratorical skills or the whims of a fickle jury, but having served on a jury, I know better.

  • Creo69

    “I’ve served on a jury and I really want to believe that the system works. That’s it’s fair and just to all parties and it’s not some kangaroo court determined by a lawyer’s oratorical skills or the whims of a fickle jury, but having served on a jury, I know better.”

    The jury system certainly isn’t perfect but it is what it is. Without actually sitting on this jury trial how can any of us speculate especially when we never truly know the true “slant” of the so called “experts” who are now attempting to discredit the jurors. Corporations know very well how to use a trial to win and they also know very well how to use PR and experts to try and discredit the verdict of a trial when they fail in court. Again, the jury system isn’t perfect but I will take it over the alternatives any day.

    Samsung was also found guilty as well on their own turf (South Korea). If a Korean court is willing to admit smoke, then you damn well better believe there is fire. At the least, Samsung should have had the foresight to consider the potential ramifications during the design phase. They obviously ignored it and here we are.

  • palladin9479

    Creo69 and all the above.

    There will be NO licensing fee’s. There will be no settlements, no agreements, nothing of that sort. Apple’s sole goal is to outlaw the sale of any smart phone that’s they didn’t make, Jobs pretty much stated that prior to his death. The 1Bn fine is absolutely nothing compared to the value of the entire smart phone market, which is growing every year at an incredible pace. Apple wants the entire pie and in order to do that they have to make anything resembling a smartphone illegal to sell. They’ve already stated their seeking injunctions against the sale of any Samsung phone or tablet anywhere in the USA.

    This is very very bad news for consumers everywhere. If it was any other company I’d just say make cross licensing agreements but Apple doesn’t play ball with other companies. Just wait, we’ll eventually see Google and Microsoft get involved, and then the war will start.

  • palladin9479

    “Samsung (and others) can still do their thing — no one’s getting pushed out of the smartphone or tablet market — they just need to license (i.e., actually, you know, pay for) those patents necessary to do so legally.”

    This is a bald faced lie. Yes DLB is lieing.

    Apple refuses to license any of it’s patents or “technology”. They do not want competition.

  • cm

    Korea Times has an illustration of the iPhone 4 compared to the older Samsung Galaxy S, and what Samsung was found guilty of.

    http://news.hankooki.com/lpage/economy/201208/h2012082621133321540.htm

    Not displayed in that illustration are the UI functions that were also found to be guilty include:

    1) Multi-touch
    2) Double tap and zoom picture
    3) Bouncing list text effect when the scroll reaches the end

  • Creo69

    “There will be NO licensing fee’s. ”

    I am willing to wait, but I assure you there will be. Apple and Samsung have had quite a profitable run working together and sharing technology. You are correct that it is not in the consumer’s best interest to squelch competition. It isn’t in the best interest of either Apple or Samsung either. This is a pissing match and little more. A little tit for tat and they will be back working together to produce products together which cost a few dollars and produce hundreds in profits. Hmm, I guess you are right, the consumer will get screwed :) Business as usual.

  • cm

    palladin9479, you are forgetting that Apple had offered $30 for each Samsung phone they sold, before the trial. Of course, I don’t know what the price will be after their court win, it may have gone up. I don’t know how Samsung does their cost calculations, but $30 a unit may not make sale of a phone profitable for Samsung to pursue manufacturing the phones for United States. Does anybody know how much Samsung make out of each sale?

  • cm

    Since Samsung was found to be willfully guilty of ripping off the iPhone, their fines could triple to over $3 billion.

    But some experts are saying this case is just merely an annoyance and embarrassment for Samsung, but it will be dangerous for other rivals who depend on Android.

    http://gulfnews.com/business/technology/apple-s-patent-win-is-dangerous-for-smartphone-rivals-1.1066266

  • cm

    Pawi, what tipped the balance of this case wasn’t the race of the jurors, it was the email letters sent back and forth between Samsung executives and Google. It was undeniable proof that Samsung knew they were copying the iPhone. Once the jurors looked at this, everything else for Samsung went down hill. Once you lose credibility, nothing you say in court will matter. Samsung tried to argue that Apple shouldn’t have gotten those design patents in the first place because it will suppress innovation. I agree with them on the patent law, but it didn’t work because the patent law is the law.

    Once the jurors determined Samsung was willfully guilty, they didn’t spend much time looking at each Samsung models to determine if that product was guilty of infringing on the iPhone/iPad patents. At that point, the jurors had probably made up their minds, that all the models Samsung offered were pirated copies of the iPhone. So in that regard, I think Samsung could argue in the appeals court, the amount of damages they need to pay to Apple, and it’s not the matter of they were guilty or not.

  • RolyPoly

    Brendon Carr,
    You are such a Korean. “hysterical prat”? Are you still in high school?

    In a grown-up world, we respect each other, even if some people have different opinion from us.

    Stop name-calling. It is ugly and it shows you are a racist.

  • RolyPoly

    cm,
    Good point.
    Email communication is being used as the last proof. I hate this because in several occasions I was told to call instead of “email”.
    Email is such an efficient tool but now corporations are telling their employees do not use it because it leaves trace.

    I personally think copying an email or using it in court should be outlawed just like illegal wiretapping is illegal.

    I just hate to see a great technical advance like email not being used its fullest potential. It is such a waste.

  • cm

    And lastly, in my company where I used to be an employee, this is exactly the reason why we had a specific policy of not using the email for anything that could be even remotely interpreted as a negative by the courts. Even a joke or some off the hand comments that could be misinterpreted, can be used against you. We were not even allowed to leave voice mails discussing anything negative. Any employee who were found to be guilty of doing any of these things, didn’t get dismissed right away, but they got flagged and let go with other reasons. I guess Samsung will have learned a valuable lesson. But I am surprised that for such a huge company, they did not have some kind of a policy in place to deal with these kinds of emails.

  • Q
  • Pingback: So, what’s been going on between Samsung and Apple?