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Korean diplomat says Japan should bet Tsushima Island

Well, this kind of rhetoric is probably unhelpful:

Japan should bet Tsushima on its bid for Dokdo, a senior Korean diplomat said Monday. The island of Tsushima is the closest Japanese territory to the Korean Peninsula, lying approximately 50km from Busan. Dokdo is a group of small islets in the East Sea.

“If Japan lodges a protest with Korea over Dokdo, it should bet Tsushima,” the diplomat, Chang Dong-hee, said in a radio program.

Oh, and Cheong Wa Dae is returning a letter from Japanese Prime Minister Noda criticizing President Lee’s visit to Dokdo.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • brier

    Free Daemado!

  • http://www.busanhaps.com Bobby McGill

    And Noda replies, “I think your bluffing, but I’ll see that bet and raise you a Jeju.”

  • anderson.f.

    They should realise how stupid they are to use rethorics like that. If Dokdo perhaps is deemed to be in a dispute and controversy, how would they defend themselves from Kuril and Senkaku islets?
    Japan is way declining severely not only in terms of competition in the global but also their intelligence.
    Well, otherwise, I have been mistakenly understood them.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    What do you mean, Robert? That’s a great idea!

    Japan agrees to take Tsushima to the International Court of Justice, and Korea agrees to take Dokdo, and both countries agree to abide by the Court’s decisions. In other words, Japan bets its claims to Tsushima and Takeshima against Korea’s claims to Tsushima and Dokdo.

    I would like to nominate that Korean diplomat for a Noble Peace Prize.

  • http://www.zenkimchi.com/FoodJournal ZenKimchi

    It depends on which island has more minerals and vespene gas–and which one can support both a Protoss Warp Gate and Zerg Hatchery.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Seoul adds that the letter contains inaccurate information by saying that Lee visited “Takeshima,” which is what the Japanese call Dokdo. “President Lee did not visit Takeshima, but Dokdo, which is Korean territory, so the letter is incorrect,” the official said.

    So, when the Korean government writes to Japan about an issue related to Liancourt Rocks, does it use the name “Takeshima” since that is the Japanese name for the Rocks?

  • Veritas

    3
    I’m not seeing your point. Rather, you seem to have something confused. The side that’s using a strange “rhetoric” in this case is Chang Dong-hee, not someone from Japan. Not to mention that bringing up Tsushima is this line of argument is… kind of dumb.

    The main reason why the ownership Liancourt rocks is unclear is because no-one has really inhabited it until recently and because neither side really made strong claims for it. Back in those days, there was no EEZ and there would have been no point in owning some rocks in the middle of nowhere.

    Tsushima, on the other hand, has been inhabited for quite a long time and for most of its history, has either been part of or had close connections to Japan. I’m sure it was just rhetoric, but I’m not really sure why Chang Dong-hee even bothered to bring it up.

  • Q

    Dokdo and Senkaku issue is nothing but Japan’s anxiety over rapid decline of Japan and rise of China and Korea:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/world/asia/dispute-over-islands-reflect-japanese-fear-of-chinas-rise.html?pagewanted=all

  • hamel

    Q: do you sincerely believe that Japanese people are also human beings, just like you?

  • Q

    I only abominate Japanese nazis. I do not have any problems with common Japanese citizens.

  • hamel

    Q: I could find 5-10 quotes from you on this blog that contradict what you just say.

  • Q

    It seems Japan would go into war with Korea soon over Dokdo: 日의회, ‘독도 실효 지배해야’ 결의안 확정. American ‘Containment policy of China’ seems on the verge of failure due to the troublemaker of East Asia.

  • hamel

    Q: if you had been born in Japan to Japanese parents, you would be Japanese now.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @11

    Not to mention that his own blood and soil ethno-nationalism has more in common with real Nazism than anything that Japan professed, especially with regard to Korea, in the relevant time period

  • hamel

    @14

    Not sure if I agree with that, but it sure is ugly.

  • Q

    Most topics I talk about Japan are limited to Dokdo and history. Yes, I am, like most Koreans, “anti-Japan” on those issues. In other parts of relations, I do not have much enmity. I see more hope in civilian level of cultural relationship between Korea and Japan than dispute over politics and history.

  • Q

    @hamel,

    Q: I could find 5-10 quotes from you on this blog that contradict what you just say.

    For example…?

  • hamel

    For example, every time you made a perjorative remark about somebody being married to a “Jap woman”.

    Seriously, Q, does it never strike you that you might be as racist as some of the Japanese whom you deplore?

    Sometimes I wonder if the Korean Uber-nationalists hate the Japanese because what the Japanese did was objectively wrong, or if they hate the Japanese because they did not have a chance to visit the same indignities and suffering upon the Japanese that were dune unto them.

  • Q

    Ah, I did not say “Jap woman” when I talk to slim. I said his “Japanese wife”. I simply assumed his unilateral hate to Korea and predilection to Japan are somewhat related with cultural influence on him.

  • Q

    In spite of my apology, I sincerely regret drawing slim’s wife into the debate. It was my fault and sorry about hurting readers’ hearts.

  • Q

    Korean women are often treated like prostitutes at TMH. Does it offend any of you who are married to Koreans?

  • http://www.chinasmack.com/tag/funny/page/3 Jakgani

    Korean women are often treated like prostitutes at TMH. Does it offend any of you who are married to Koreans?

    In my home country – a majority of Korean women are prostitutes.

    Then after a few years, they stop pretending to be students, return to Korea and get married to an unsuspecting Korean man to start a family.

  • slim

    Why is Q, with his Nazi-esque vibe and rank dishonesty and inable to read and understand English, even tolerated here? He’s that piece of shit that gives shit a bad name.

  • slim

    inability

  • hamel

    Let me fix that for you, Q:

    KoreanAny and all women are oftensometimes treated like prostitutes at TMH.

    Yes, that is true.

    Does it offend any of you who are married to Koreans?

    It depends on what is said, and if I feel malice behind it. I try not to get upset too easily at every little thing that some person who I do not really know types into a computer somewhere in the world.

  • hamel

    Ah, I did not say “Jap woman” when I talk to slim.

    But when you started at this blog, you used “Jap” for every comment related to Japan, and then, when Robert K warned you, you began to use “Jap-an” for a while. Remember?

    Why not just admit confidently and proudly that you hate all Japanese and the nation of Japan?

  • Q

    This is a Korea blog and you can easily find out Korea bashing everywhere. Their part time job seems like Korea bashing, often Japanese involved. They keep taking out scabs covering of historical wound Koreans have strived to overcome.

    Yeah I remember I used the word ‘Jap’. I used the word intending Japanese right-wingers and war criminals, like Western media used the word during wartime. Japan does not give up their colonial ideology, still glorifying and beatifying it, intentionally denying what they did to other Asians and people in the world. I condemn it and despise it. In that context, I said ‘Jap’. (Ah, I also remember sperwers use the word like ‘kimchi breath’ when insulting Koreans.)

    Westerners seem to like move on because it does not directly meet their interest any more. Stable Korea and Japan alliance would best serve the American interest in East Asia vs. China. The reality is that Japan does not have intention to work with other Asian nations on cleaning up what they had done in Asia. For them, it is simply a glorious history of Japan civilizing savage Asians. Japanese government is not reluctant to reopen the wounds that hurt Asian neighbors. Those Japanese Nazis deserved to be called ‘Japs’, IMO.

    However, since this blog owner’s policy would not allow use the word, I refrained from using it.

  • hamel

    Ah, Q.

    This is a Korea blog and you can easily find out Korea bashing everywhere.

    I don’t know if you have noticed, but you can also find many positive portrayals of Korea on this blog, both by its owner and the visiting commenters here.

    Their part time job seems like Korea bashing, often Japanese involved.

    Is this hyperbole? It sounds like it.

    They keep taking out scabs covering of historical wound Koreans have strived to overcome.

    I am sorry, but I am going to have to call “bullshit” on this. You, in 99% of your comments here, have shown that you have not striven one iota to overcome the historical wounds inflicted by Japan. If you want to overcome them, rise up and overcome them. If you want to harp on about them forever, then do so. But you cannot do both.

    Yeah I remember I used the word ‘Jap’. I used the word intending Japanese right-wingers and war criminals, like Western media used the word during wartime.

    Ok so here you are narrowing down your target to only the “bad Japanese.” I see.

    Japan does not give up their colonial ideology, still glorifying and beatifying it, intentionally denying what they did to other Asians and people in the world.

    When you say “Japan” here, I hope you are also meaning just the “bad Japanese.” Because it sounds once again like you are targeting the whole nation.

    I condemn it and despise it. In that context, I said ‘Jap’. (Ah, I also remember sperwers use the word like ‘kimchi breath’ when insulting Koreans.)

    Don’t deflect this discussion to make it about Sperwer. If you look around, you will see that I call him out when I think he goes too far.

    Westerners seem to like move on because it does not directly meet their interest any more.

    And you don’t like to move on (or “overcome”) because you are a victim of nationalism. Do you know that? Tell me this, how does it affect your life if Japan claims Dokdo? It only affects your life inasmuch as you give significance to it.

    About a decade ago, I was teaching some Chinese pre-MBA students in Australia. We talked about Taiwan. They got so upset about the idea of an independent Taiwan. I couldn’t understand them. They asked me “how would you feel if Tasmania decided that it wanted to be independent of Australia?” I told them honestly that it wouldn’t affect my everyday life one bit. They couldn’t understand me.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    When Korean embassy officials came to the Japanese Foreign Ministry to return the letter from the Japanese Prime Minister that President Lee refused to receive, they were turned away at the door because they had not made a “formal appointment.”

    It seems both sides can play childish games.

    LINK

  • Q

    Tell me this, how does it affect your life if Japan

    Tell me this, how does it affect your life if Japan claims Dokdo? It only affects your life inasmuch as you give significance to it.

    Are you so naive enough Japan gave up their colonial ideology? They reaffirm it and justify it every possible chance they have. Dokdo is a simply very small part of it. It would affect tremendously the lives of Koreans. Japan does not know any remorse upon their criminal Japanese nazism, which they would repeat if they could because they believe it was beneficial in sum for savage Asians.

    For her justice, like Germany, it should have to be Japan, not Korea, that be divided and controlled by Allied Powers. Japan should not have make complaints even though Allied Powers put them into much harsher condition. Division of Korea, which Japan delightfully has taken great advantage of, has affected a lot post-colonial generations of entire Korean population.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Jiji Press reports the following HERE:

    Japan Refuses to Accept Takeshima Letter Returned by Seoul

    Seoul, Aug. 23 (Jiji Press)–Japan’s Foreign Ministry refused to accept a letter Thursday that was sent by Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda to South Korean President Lee Myung Bak but returned.

    An official at the South Korean embassy in Tokyo visited the ministry to return the letter, but the ministry refused to meet the official.

    Following this, the South Korean embassy sent the letter back by registered mail.

    Due to the unusual diplomatic spat, the bilateral relationship looks certain to deteriorate further.

    In the letter, sent Friday, Noda criticized Lee’s unprecedented visit to the Sea of Japan islands of Takeshima, controlled by South Korea, on Aug. 10 and expressed regret over Lee’s remarks on seeking an apology from Emperor Akihito for Japan’s past colonial rule.

  • slim

    Q is something that seeped up the Marmot’s Hole from the Korea Sentry sewer at some point when an issue that provoked Korean jingoists drew the attention of that site. He’s not the only one; merely the worst of the lot, and bad enough to drag down the overall standards of this blog.

    Without Q’s making a minimal commitment to start using words according to their actual meaning, engaging people based on the actual arguments they’ve made and seeking truth from facts, he has no use as a debate partner. Q’s biggest mistake — and, to be clear, he makes a lot of mistakes — is to think somehow he is different or better or more logical than The Japanese nationalists of 2CH or the Chinese 50-cent/fenqing crew of everywhere. Knuckle-dragging nativists, all of them. The only difference is Q’s ethnicity and the side he cheers for. Same shit, different pile, is all.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Q is something that seeped up the Marmot’s Hole from the Korea Sentry sewer at some point when an issue that provoked Korean jingoists drew the attention of that site. He’s not the only one; merely the worst of the lot, and bad enough to drag down the overall standards of this blog.

    MH would be a better place if you (along with many others who do the same) spent even a fraction of your energy spent stepping on Q to clamp down the knee-jerk Korea haters.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    The Korean wrote (#32):

    MH would be a better place if you (along with many others who do the same) spent even a fraction of your energy spent stepping on Q to clamp down the knee-jerk Korea haters.

    The Marmot’s Hole would be a better place if all hateful, racist posts were simply removed and repeat offenders of such posts were banned. How many times has Q been warned about his postings? Have the warnings done any good?

    Not agreeing with Koreans on Dokdo or other topics does not make someone a Korea-hater.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    “MH would be a better place if [commentators] . . . spent even a fraction of . . . energy spent stepping on Q to clamp down the knee-jerk Korea haters.”

    And also if all commentators eschewed ad hominem, which appears to be the default mode of many in arguing with interlocutors holding opposing opinions . . .

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • AED

    There is no point in engaging in any meaningful discussion with Q. he is a child who will forever lack critical thinking skills. the only upside to calling out his naughty behavior is in the slim hope that those who think like him will see the error of their ways.

  • AED

    damn, there i go with the ad hominem.. but but he really deserves it!

    btw, it’d be a helluva lot easier to stomp on the korea haters if people like Q weren’t around feeding them ammo all day

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    btw, it’d be a helluva lot easier to stomp on the korea haters if people like Q weren’t around feeding them ammo all day

    “Racism would be so much easier to fight if these gooks weren’t so stupid.”

  • AED

    you know, i could easily misinterpret your comment too and say that it sounds like you’re defending Q.. which i know you’re not. as far as i’m concerned, the korea haters definitely need to be called out too. my point is that Q doesn’t help at all. in fact, he makes things worse.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    as far as i’m concerned, the korea haters definitely need to be called out too. my point is that Q doesn’t help at all. in fact, he makes things worse.

    I fail to see how what Q does or does not do is relevant at all to calling out knee-jerk Korean haters.

  • Arghaeri

    How about he reinforces a bad stereotype and encourages the korean haters in their belief!

  • AED

    i guess im not making myself clear. korea haters should be called out whether Q does his thing or not. no argument there.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    How about he reinforces a bad stereotype and encourages the korean haters in their belief!

    Functional equivalent: “I would trust black people more if so many black people weren’t criminals.”

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    korea haters should be called out whether Q does his thing or not. no argument there.

    That’s all I wanted to convey. But it will be a cold day in hell when a Korea hater will receive the same level of recrimination in MH as a Korean nationalist idiot.

    In this space, Korea and Koreans are subject to the vile racism every day. Yet the commentariat only chases after the idiot Korean nationalists like they are something shiny. One has to wonder why.

  • Bendrix

    a lot of the Korea hate here, though, is of a pervasive, nagging, and benevolently chiding type that’s already worn thin for me, and I just started visiting this site. for a Korea blog, I see a lot more Koreans being called out for their shit than Japanese. funny thing is, I go to Japan sites like Japan probe and it’s the same story. not many people call the Japanese out on their shit, for some reason. it’s all very passive aggressive and infuriating.

  • cm

    What vile racism are you talking about? All I see are plethora of differing opinions from individuals, including yours.

  • Bendrix

    #45 Are you asking me? I did not use the words vile racism. I’m specifically talking about people’s constant patronizing attitudes.

    Japan and their defenders: constant microaggressors. It’s actually a great strategy. You can just take the moral high ground for not having acted out, though you know you provoked. Good job.

  • CactusMcHarris

    #43 TK,

    I’m calling BS on that – it is a Korea blog and there are many here, including your humble writer, who combat asshattery from anyone, not just Korea-bashers. Maybe you want an exclusive?

  • cm

    No I’m talking to TK, at post #43.

    It’s people like Q that are the problem, constantly spewing this site with anti-Japanese spam. I’d rather read Gerry Bever’s drivels on Dokto and why it should be renamed Takeshima under Japan. Then oh my god, no.. strike that thought.

  • CactusMcHarris

    #48,

    Wouldn’t it be great though, if Korea was awarded ownership and named it Takeshima but in special Hangul, noting that it’s doing so to promote Han/Nippon love?

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    That’s all I wanted to convey. But it will be a cold day in hell when a Korea hater will receive the same level of recrimination in MH as a Korean nationalist idiot.

    That’s probably true, although in my defense, while I haven’t crunched the numbers, I believe I’ve banned more Korea bashers than Korean “nationalists.”

    I’d also point out that in some quarters of the blogosphere, this blog has been accused, oddly enough, of “kimchi cowboyism” and shilling for the The [Yellow, presumably] Man. So just imagine—it could be a lot worse.

    As for Q and other commenters—I think this blog’s comment section would be a lot better place if we responded to comments that deserved to be responded to and ignored the ones that deserved to be ignored.

    Japan and their defenders: constant microaggressors. It’s actually a great strategy. You can just take the moral high ground for not having acted out, though you know you provoked. Good job.

    That’s probably the best description of the situation I’ve ever read. Thanks.

  • CactusMcHarris

    #50,

    You’re wanted at the UN – there’s a mess or two to understate.

  • hamel

    Gbevers:

    Not agreeing with Koreans on Dokdo or other topics does not make someone a Korea-hater.

    With you, Gerry, it is SO much more. And much of it is up here on this blog for all to see.

    Jeffrey Hodges:

    And also if all commentators eschewed ad hominem, which appears to be the default mode of many in arguing with interlocutors holding opposing opinions . . .

    Why don’t we stop calling ad hominem a logical fallacy and recognize it for what it is – a universally employed debating tactic? Stop making it look like it’s a bad thing.

    Bendrix:

    Japan and their defenders: constant microaggressors. It’s actually a great strategy. You can just take the moral high ground for not having acted out, though you know you provoked. Good job.

    I concur with Marmot here. That is a great description. Japan and the Japanophiles are like the brother or sister who sit next to you in the back of the car, needling you out of sight of your parents so that you eventually blow up and hit them, and then they cry to mommy and daddy “Korea hit me!”

  • hamel

    Q: I no longer know what to say to you. You have stopped making sense. Do you actually believe Japan desires to colonize/conquer Korea all over again? It seems so.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    “Why don’t we stop calling ad hominem a logical fallacy and recognize it for what it is — a universally employed debating tactic? Stop making it look like it’s a bad thing.”

    I have to assume you’re joking, Hamel, since wide use as a debating technique doesn’t make a logical fallacy any less of a bad thing.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    Only half joking, Mr. Hodges. Since everyone seems to do it, I doubt it will be expunged from human behavior any time soon, no matter what Latin label you give it.

    And maybe it is just another sign that humans are not meant to be logical.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    I have no illusions of expunging it — and I certainly wouldn’t want laws against it — but we should all recognize it for what it is.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    I recognize it for what it is – a widely used, and sometimes very effective, tool of debate and public discourse.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Correction: “a widely used, and sometimes very effective, tool of debate and public discourse” despite being a logical fallacy.

    That’s recognizing it for what it is.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    I don’t see the big deal. Humans are not meant for logic. Unless you support the Chicago school of economics, much of human activity is divorced from logic and rationality.

    If you want to label and categorize every human behavior that is irrational, then you will be up for a long night.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    I’ll deboard at this station, Hamel, since your train of thought is about to go off the rails.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    Thanks, Mr. Hodges. That allows me to have the last word.

    To a certain extent, everyone tacitly agrees to a certain amount of ad hominem. For example, few people would dream of defending anything good that might have happened under the Nazi regime in Germany, precisely because Hitler did it.

    By the way, did you make “deboard” a verb by yourself? You Americans, so creative with the language! I hope you found the egress all right. ;)

  • jk6411

    As for Q and other commenters—I think this blog’s comment section would be a lot better place if we responded to comments that deserved to be responded to and ignored the ones that deserved to be ignored.

    Totally agree.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    I prefer e-gress to e-gression, so it was all right . . .

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#52):

    With you, Gerry, it is SO much more. And much of it is up here on this blog for all to see.

    Give me some examples of my hating Korea here at the Marmot’s Hole or anywhere.

    CM wrote (#48):

    I’d rather read Gerry Bever’s drivels on Dokto and why it should be renamed Takeshima under Japan.

    Are you spelling it “Dokto” because that was how it was spelled in General Van Fleet’s 1954 Mission Report?

    By the way, General Van Fleet was a hero in Korea. Not only did he save South Korea from North Korean communism, he helped establish the Korean Military Academy, where there is a life-size statue of him. He is even referred to as “The Father of the Korean Army.” LINK Yet, some Koreans seemed to change their opinion of him after they
    learned that the following was written in his 1954 Mission Report:

    When the Treaty of Peace with Japan was being drafted, the Republic of Korea asserted its claims to Dokto but the United States concluded that they remained under Japanese sovereignty and the Island was not included among the Islands that Japan released from its ownership under the Peace Treaty.

    Judging from his imaginary interview with General Van Fleet in 2006, Lee Jae-hyeon (이재현) seemed to be one of the people who did not have a high opinion of the American Hero. LINK Here is part of the “imaginary interview”:

    Hyun: Your statue is standing on the campus of Korean Military Academy. What do you think about that? A majority of Koreans think your statue should be removed before operational authority is returned (to the Korean military). Even among the Korean military, whose primary mission is to protect Korean territory, there are those wonder why a man who submitted a report that said “Dokdo is Japanese territory” has a statue on the campus of the Military Academy where Korea’s elite military leaders are trained. I am curious to know how you would feel if it were removed.

    Van Fleet: (after a little hesitation) I guess I will be in the same situation as MacArthur. But how many people are there in this majority you mentioned?

    Hyun: Every Korean adult with a 3-digit IQ.

    Hamel and Q, was General Van Fleet a Korea-hater because he wrote in his 1954 mission report that Dokdo was Japanese territory?

  • CactusMcHarris

    #64,

    Just the fact that you’re asking for examples colours you as completely oblivious and utterly self-unaware, Gerry. Initially I found it odd that you’d spent so much time in country and in the language and yet could take a lovely song (Chillekot) and think it was funny to make a ‘satire’ of it using your own excrement as a subject. It just gets worse from there.

  • CactusMcHarris

    Correction – it doesn’t get worse, but it continues along the same vein, Gerry. You dislike the thing you used to love – maybe that has to do with events in your life – that’s none of my business. The fact that you show so little empathy for the comfort women (while ostensibly searching for the ‘truth’) makes you appear to be one cold person, and the fact that you have little / nothing to say positive about this country makes you appear to be bitter about your former love.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    cactus, thnks for writing that.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Cactus wrote (#65):

    Just the fact that you’re asking for examples colours you as completely oblivious and utterly self-unaware, Gerry.

    To question someone’s calling me a Korea-hater means I AM a Korea-hater?

    Cactus wrote:

    Initially I found it odd that you’d spent so much time in country and in the language and yet could take a lovely song (Chillekot) and think it was funny to make a ‘satire’ of it using your own excrement as a subject. It just gets worse from there.

    The lyrics of JjilleGgot (찔레꽂) do not make sense to me. How can you dance like a flower, cry like a flower, and fly like a flower? Flowers do not cry or fly. My parody was done to show how silly the lyrics were, not to show my hate for Korea. Why is it you cannot see the difference? Even Sonagi came to me defense when she wrote the following:

    Good heavens, people!

    A talented artist’s work cannot be degraded or its worth diminished by an anonymous netizen. Funny how more folks got worked up over Bevers’ parody than the Sarah Palin Downs Syndrome kid joke on a previous thread. There is good parody and bad parody, but no one is above parody, not even that imaginary friend in the sky that monotheists talk to. Just because you all esteem Jang Sa-ik doesn’t mean everyone has to.

    Cactus, just because you like the song “JjilleGgot” does not mean everyone else has to like it. HERE is the link to that thread.

    Cactus, please give me some more examples of how “it just gets worse from there.”

  • berto

    say what you will of gerry, but he is one of the very, very few people on here using his real name and backing up his claims with evidence he sees as relevant. empathy has nothing to do with it. maybe he is a cold person, maybe he isn’t. that is not the subject he is arguing. gerry is arguing about facts, not emotion. saying gerry is bitter because of his views on dokdo and comfort women is like saying atheists are unfeeling because they dont believe in god, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. now let’s go back to branding people who complain that summer in seoul is uncomfortable as korea haters.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    “Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.”

    - Gertrude Stein, 1913.

    (But how can Rose be a rose?!)

    A Red, Red Rose

    O, my luve’s like a red, red rose,
    That’s newly sprung in June.
    O, my luve’s like the melodie,
    That’s sweetly play’d in tune.

    As fair art thou, my bonie lass,
    So deep in luve am I,
    And I will luve thee still, my Dear,
    Till a’ the seas gang dry.

    Till a’ the seas gang dry, my Dear,
    And the rocks melt wi’ the sun!
    O I will luve thee still, my Dear,
    While the sands o’ life shall run.

    And fare thee weel, my only Luve,
    And fare thee weel a while!
    And I will come again, my Luve,
    Tho’ it were ten thousand mile!

    Robert Burns, 1794

    (But how can his love be like a rose, and how can he promise such wild exaggerations?!)

    (Plato was right — poetry and songs . . . all lies!)

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @54 et al

    Ad hominem is not always and necessarily a fallacy, especially when it is used as a riposte to claims based on authority (rather than evidence and argumentative logic). Then, it is perfectly legitimate.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    In such a case, it would simply be a correct label, I agree. If, for example, someone really is a Nazi, then identifying that person as a Nazi would be accurate. Since most of us reject Nazi ideology, that would suffice to defeat the Nazi’s argument (if it is grounded in Nazi assumptions).

    Most ad hominem, however, is used to cloud rather than clarify — a smokescreen to obscure the central argument and displace the focus onto the object of the ad hominem attack.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Cactus wrote (#66):

    Correction – it doesn’t get worse, but it continues along the same vein, Gerry. You dislike the thing you used to love – maybe that has to do with events in your life – that’s none of my business. The fact that you show so little empathy for the comfort women (while ostensibly searching for the ‘truth’) makes you appear to be one cold person, and the fact that you have little / nothing to say positive about this country makes you appear to be bitter about your former love.

    Your claim is simply ridiculous, as usual. There are things I like about Korea and things I dislike. Do you like everything about Korea, Cactus?

    For example, I really like Kang Sang-eh’s song “Like Salmon” (연어들 처럼). That’s a great song. I posted about it on my Korean Language Notes blog in January.

    Why don’t you read through my blog and find examples of my hating Korea. Start in December 2006, when I lost my job because of my Dokdo writings, and show me the hate.

    Just because I do not believe everything Koreans say about Dokdo, the colonial period, and the comfort women does not mean I hate Korea. It only means I am skeptical and want to see evidence supporting Korea’s claims. Why am I skeptical? Because my study of the Dokdo-Takeshima dispute has convinced me that I would be a fool not to be.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @72 concur; even when it’s rhetorically/logically legitimate, ad hominem is rarely effective, except to fan the flames and increase the smoke.

  • hamel

    Sperwer: whether it is effective or not depends upon the beholder, I guess. We certainly seem to use it a lot. Even you and I are not above it.

    HJH: I guess you caught hold of the rail on the caboose just as it was whizzing past for one more ride on the ad hominem express, eh?

  • hamel

    Gerry:

    Hamel and Q, was General Van Fleet a Korea-hater because he wrote in his 1954 mission report that Dokdo was Japanese territory?

    I haven’t read enough of Van Fleet’s personal writings to judge. With you, it’s different, though, Gerry.

  • hamel
    With you, Gerry, it is SO much more. And much of it is up here on this blog for all to see.

    Give me some examples of my hating Korea here at the Marmot’s Hole or anywhere

    Really, as I said, it is up here on this blog, Gerry.

    If one or two people (or only Koreans) label you as a Korea-hater, you can probably safely ignore it or chalk it up to irrational emotionalism.

    If, however, a large number of otherwise intelligent people suggest that you are anti-Korean, then maybe it is time for some honest self-reflection.

    Which is it, Gerry?

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#77):

    Really, as I said, it is up here on this blog, Gerry.

    If one or two people (or only Koreans) label you as a Korea-hater, you can probably safely ignore it or chalk it up to irrational emotionalism.

    If, however, a large number of otherwise intelligent people suggest that you are anti-Korean, then maybe it is time for some honest self-reflection.

    In other words, the only examples you have showing me to be a “Korea-hater” are “otherwise intelligent people” suggesting I am one?

    Since you used the adverb “otherwise” in front of “intelligent people,” I am a little confused. Are you saying that by suggesting I am “anti-Korean,” people are showing a lack of intelligence?

  • hamel

    It’s a pity there is no laughing-out-loud emoticon on this blog, for I would surely use it now.

  • Veritas

    I know that I haven’t been around enough to actually carry much weight here, but does this really need to go on?

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    “I guess you caught hold of the rail on the caboose just as it was whizzing past for one more ride on the ad hominem express, eh?”

    Nah, I just went for a stroll with an old friend and discussed issues with mutual understanding based on depth of knowledge grounded in years of experience and breadth of reading, leavened by reflection and maturity, and enlightened by devotion to accuracy and truth rather than by an attempt to score points.

    You’ll experience this someday, Hamel, when you realize life is too short to waste time.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    Nah, I just went for a stroll with an old friend and discussed issues with mutual understanding based on depth of knowledge grounded in years of experience and breadth of reading, leavened by reflection and maturity, and enlightened by devotion to accuracy and truth rather than by an attempt to score points.

    That wouldn’t be ad hominem, would it?

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    no; at least not more so than your caboose jibe

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Nah, Hamel, just humor among friends!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • hamel

    Sperwer: my so-called “caboose jibe” was in line with HJH #60.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    And precisely why I wouldn’t grab hold of the caboose rail!

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Charles Tilly

    #31:

    Q is something that seeped up the Marmot’s Hole from the Korea Sentry sewer at some point when an issue that provoked Korean jingoists drew the attention of that site. He’s not the only one; merely the worst of the lot, and bad enough to drag down the overall standards of this blog.

    Without Q’s making a minimal commitment to start using words according to their actual meaning, engaging people based on the actual arguments they’ve made and seeking truth from facts, he has no use as a debate partner. Q’s biggest mistake — and, to be clear, he makes a lot of mistakes — is to think somehow he is different or better or more logical than The Japanese nationalists of 2CH or the Chinese 50-cent/fenqing crew of everywhere. Knuckle-dragging nativists, all of them. The only difference is Q’s ethnicity and the side he cheers for. Same shit, different pile, is all.

    And blah, blah, blah, blabitty-fucking-blah….Thanks for telling us what we all knew all along. You can go get a fucking life now.

  • dokdoforever

    Northern Tsushima island should be ceded to S Korea as part of a reparation package for WW2 and colonial rule.

  • yuna

    Timing is indeed everything and we are forgetting the main issue here : LMB and why he did it just as he was about to leave after being so lovey dovey with Japan throughout his tenure.

    It was a dirty, irresponsible and messy smoke-bomb he released in order to disappear as quietly as possible into oblivion. The Japanese (politicians) and the Korean public are doing exactly what was expected of them all along, and playing into his hands. I have to hand it to him as a politician.

    The actual issue of Tokdo, Korean hating, Japanese loving – all these things will be of utmost unimportance in 10 years time as China-centric Asia rises, and the rest of the world cannot afford to bash China anymore, and Japan finds its own place within Asia.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    @85, just so: tit for tat

  • CactusMcHarris

    #73,

    Of course there are things I didn’t / don’t like about Korea, Gerry. To say so otherwise would be fool-hardy.

  • Arghaeri

    Functional equivalent: “I would trust black people more if so many black people weren’t criminals.”

    Not equivalent at all, as you well know, in fact the complete opposite, since in the “equivalency” Q is the criminal comitting the crime.

    And frankly your inference in making such a comment is both insulting and racist.

  • Arghaeri

    for a Korea blog, I see a lot more Koreans being called out for their shit than Japanese.

    fancy that, a korean blog focusing on korean issues, are you gonna complain that more koreans are called out here than croatians too!

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    That’s probably true, although in my defense, while I haven’t crunched the numbers, I believe I’ve banned more Korea bashers than Korean “nationalists.”

    It’s your blog, you don’t need any defense.

  • hamel

    Arghaeri: don’t get me started on those Croats!

    Although HJH will be quick to point out that they do make nice cravats.

    *******
    칠성

  • Bendrix

    #93

    Go to Japan Probe and see how many people are talking bad about Japanese. Very few. That place tends to censor comments like that. But not comments badmouthing Koreans. Every post is about how much Korea and China suck. Here, though, you have a very healthy number of posters whose every comment is somehow negative about Koreans, whether it’s outright racism or just bitchy little complaints.

    What I’m saying is you come to a Korea blog, you get negative comments about Koreans. You go to a Japan blog, you get negative comments about Koreans. In neither place do I see a proportionate amount of criticism of Japan.

  • monsieur

    Sorry for posting under a different name this is “Best” but i seem to have lost my password preventing me from logging in under my usual account so I created this one.

    I’ve never seen a people who are more obsessed about another country (Japan) than Koreans are anywhere else in the world. To be honest, I don’t think it’s as much Korea-bashing by westerners that drives Korean trolls up the wall as it is the jealousy they feel when they see foreigners, especially westerners, express admiration for anything related to Japan. I’ve seen this first hand on numerous occasions with Koreans who explode and go ballistic whenever they hear a foreigner saying that he/she enjoyed Japan and likes the country. That person doesn’t have to say a single criticism of Korea, but so many of the K-blog trolls will erupt with jealous anger when they hear a foreigner complimenting Japan and label that person as a “japanophile.”.

    It’s quite funny because I’ve ever seen the term “Japanophile” used as a negative or pejorative term except on this site. The crew here really seem to hate people who think of Japanese as just normal friendly human beings rather than the one-dimensional evil “japs” which is the doctrine that the Koreans here want and attempt to force everyone to adopt. If you don’t despise Japan and refuse to adopt the black/white “Korea = always right and always good / Japan = always wrong and always bad” conventional wisdom, then you are labeled as a despicable Japanophile.

    The Korean nationalist mindset at work is amusing to watch, but at the same time a fascinating study in human psychology with regards to inferiority complexes.

  • monsieur

    #96

    Apparently, you missed the “Japan Today” forums from back around 1999-2009 when Korean trolls basically infested that site’s web board public forums for those ten years. If you were to login and check the postings on that site on any given random day, you would be hard-pressed to find even one posting that was not riddled with “f-ckin jap this, f-ckin jap that” or on how superior K-pop is to J-pop, very tasteless and rude comments about Japanese women, praise for the Hanshin earthquake killing more Japanese people, talk about how Korean men have such sexual prowess with Japanese women. I think it was actually just a handful, of Korean trolls posting under multiple accounts which made it seemed as though there were thousands of them. Anyways, the quality of the forum deteriorated so much that someone finally called attention to the owners of the site to prevent the massive infestation oh Korean trolling to the point that they fortunately cracked down on the multiple accounts and started to monitor the forums closely and ban any sign of Korean trolling. My opinion is thank god the Japan boards finally stood up to these Korean trolls and gave them a taste of theirben medicine. Now, they have no other place other than the Korensentry forums to spew their dillusionsl, putrid, bigoted filth.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    My knowledge of history has a few gaps, Hamel, but one less gap now that I know the Croatian origin of cravats.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • yuna

    #96

    That’s because Japan is one of the things that white people like.
    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/02/07/58-japan/

    Korea, in the collective consciousness *outside of Asia* lie somewhat closer to China (with its Chinese way of reading place names and people names, and not the Korean way. this is not so in Sweden I was told by my Swedish ex, that they group Korea with Japan), despite its language and culture being close to that of Japan, and China is definitely not on the list of “stuffwhitepeoplelike”.

    Also, like people learning to swear first when they pick up a language, Japanophiles tend to pick up the derisive attitude towards fellow Asians from some of the prejudiced Japanese themselves in order to fit in/assimilate better with them.

    Within Asia, the history is too recent and was kept arbitraily by the political powers to run deep for Japan’s neighbours to actually appreciate Japan for its niceness with cultural exchange and friendship between individuals, which the non-Asian Japanophiles just label and condemn “groundless jealousy” and take sides which fan the flame.

    which reminds me Sayuri’s “Yuksik Style”was No.1 searchword on Daum a few hours ago.
    http://article.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.asp?total_id=9140263&ctg=1502

  • αβγδε

    LOL. I’m so glad Sayuri is still ticking. Then again, this is coming from a person who doesn’t watch Korean TV anymore. Perhaps she’s on various shows all the time. I love her.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    yuna, really? and of all the yahoos in korea who despise koreans?
    let me add just one more reason: korean man wont take their shit anymore. lastly, dont matter how many white men support japan. they have no say in this. it aint up to them. they think they’te doing japan a favor but thats the wrong answer. they just encourage japananese behavior which in the long run will be bad for the nipponese.

  • Q

    hamel wrote:

    Q: I no longer know what to say to you. You have stopped making sense. Do you actually believe Japan desires to colonize/conquer Korea all over again? It seems so.

    Isn’t it commonsensical that unrepentant criminal has high chance of doing the same thing again?

    yuna wrote:

    Also, like people learning to swear first when they pick up a language, Japanophiles tend to pick up the derisive attitude towards fellow Asians from some of the prejudiced Japanese themselves in order to fit in/assimilate better with them.

    Japanophile otakus are the worst kind of racists.

    CT wrote:

    And blah, blah, blah, blabitty-fucking-blah….Thanks for telling us what we all knew all along. You can go get a fucking life now.

    퍽유.

  • Arghaeri

    see how many people are talking bad about Japanese. Very few. That place tends to censor comments like that.

    Asked and answered Bendrix! :-)

  • Arghaeri

    My knowledge of history has a few gaps, Hamel, but one less gap now that I know the Croatian origin of cravats.

    Indeed thanks for that Hamel :-)

  • Bendrix

    #98

    “I’ve never seen a people who are more obsessed about another country (Japan) than Koreans are anywhere else in the world.”

    Are you doing a tit for that? Because I said just the opposite in my earlier post. Everywhere I go on the Internet it’s Japanese and Japan supporters trolling Korean news articles, but not as much the opposite. Maybe it’s all a matter of perception.

    #150

    Asked, answered tentatively, and then answered more concretely. Censoring of posts. I know, because I’ve posted at Japan Probe and it didn’t go through, presumably because it was critical of Japan. I didn’t swear or troll in my comment. I see Marmot’s Hole has a more open policy.

  • Arghaeri

    Bendrix, you should bear in mind that this is a Loreacentric blog with a large readership of curren resident or repatriated largely western expats. The stereotypical western expat moans and whinges about the everday things that affect their daily lives. Japan, other than the unstoopable intrusions of the likes of Gerry and Q has little or no bearing on “our” daily lives, we quite simply have little interest except as it directly impacts our lives.

    Korean, traffic, drivers, work colleagues, shop attendants, waitstaff,ajummas, adoshis, politics, charbols, etc do have an impact in our day to day lives, and hence we tend to share and moan about such things. This generally is very little different from the same moaning and whinging they would do if in their home country. It is typically not anti korean per se, but rather environmental commentary and typically we spend little time focussing on the great things, thats just the nature of our culture. If you stop to ask, and make the expact think he will as I do be able to comment ob all the things which are way better than back home, and not just the things which irk him.

    And BTW this is not unique to expats at the Hole, I’ve spent a lot of time in various lorean expat communities and never been in one where they dudn’t whinge and mian about the things they didn’t like about the culture they were living in.

  • Bendrix

    I meant #105 in the second one.

  • Q

    Arghaeri wrote:

    Japan, other than the unstoopable intrusions of the likes of Gerry and Q has little or no bearing on “our” daily lives

    “our” means expats.

  • Arghaeri

    apologies for all the typos, my thumb appears to be suffering from a hangover :-)

  • Arghaeri

    “our” means most readers at the Hole, since I doubt your and Gerry’s unstoppable intrusions come to the wider attention of expats generally.

  • Q

    It affects daily lives of Koreans. Expats would not care because they will leave once earning enough to come back to home, like Keith and Year of Dragon said before.

  • Arghaeri

    After all I think many care very little wherher Dokdo is korean or japanese, in my opinion Korea posesses it Simple. This does not mean that I in any way think that 2MB’s visit was prudent or sensible, in doing so I am disagreeing with his poltical strategy, I am not being anti korean, because I bleive Korea should retain Dokdo. Similarly that belief does that make me anti Hapanese. I simply belive that Dokdo should remain a korean posession, whilst simultaneously holding the view that is is simply bad political strategy to make such a highly charged visit.

  • Q

    I appreciate your opinion on Dokdo and I do not expect non-Koreans have interest in this complicated issue as much as Koreans do.

  • http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ jefferyhodges

    Arghaeri, your thumb should take two aspirins, drink a glass of water, and return to bed till it’s slept off that hangover.

    Jeffery Hodges

    * * *

  • Arghaeri

    It affects daily lives of Koreans. Expats would not care because they will leave once earning enough to come back to home, like Keith and Year of Dragon said before.

    1) Then go and comment in korean on on a blog with a mainly korean readership.
    2) In any case how so exactly. when you go to work in the morning does the taxi driver cut you up because he’s pissed that korea possess dokdo.
    3) I had no idea that Keith and Yotd were representing all foreigners here, and in any case Keith will no doubt be here a long time since dreaming, and actually uprooting family are different things. One of the things about the Hole is that many of its long time
    commenters are have bern here fir years, love it here and will be for a long time more. Indeed we have far more invested in the long term health and future of korea than that other significant part of the readership that have little or no connection to korea other than genetic ties.
    4) I can’t tell you hiw many koreans I know who are waiting to leave korea ior have already as soon as they could adford it!!

    2)

  • Q

    Then go and comment in korean on on a blog with a mainly korean readership.

    I’m here because of gbevers and his friends.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    ‘appreciate your opinion on Dokdo and I do not expect non-Koreans have interest in this complicated issue as much as Koreans do.’

    needs to be repeated cuz yahoo thinks its his right to forgive the japanese on behalf of koreans.

  • Arghaeri

    Jeffrey, nah time to get up, gonna try the cold shower technique, see if that wirks. :-)

  • Bendrix

    Arghaeri, so are you saying if I go to a Turkey blog run by an expat, there will be a bunch of Greeks there trolling about Cyprus? And constantly niggling and nagging about how the Turks stole olives or something like that?

    Maybe that’s true. Maybe I should go check out some Turkey blogs.

  • Bendrix

    And the expats will be saying, oh these Turks are such idiot drivers. What is with Turkish men? Why do they eat so much doner kebab? Why is Turkish flag a crescent moon? They must have stolen that shape from the French croissant.

    Why can’t I teach English here without being treated like a jerk? Why don’t these Turks just get rid of Islam? If they want to join the European Union (i.e., civilization) they should just give up their national identities. Their claims on Cyprus are such bullcrap.

  • Arghaeri

    I’m here because of gbevers and his friends.

    Don’t take it the wrong way Q, it wasn’t intended as an imperative, rather if your concern is everyday koreams then take it to them.

    I actually find that whilst often totally iff topic some if your snippets are quite informative, and when I don’t I just pass over them.

    So carry on, but maybe just reflect that the note on Scapin doesn’t need reminding several times a week!

  • Q

    I’d correct. I feel strongest possible motivation to be here because of gebevers and his colleagues.

  • Arghaeri

    No Bendrix, I am saying you will likely find a bunch if expats moaining, why are turkish drivers crazy, why on earth do they keep forcing sweet apple tea on me, why do they do this that and the other at work, why on earth dies rhe pm have such a hard on for the kutds etc, i.e what effects they’re daily live. They likely won’t be there slagging if the syrian neighbours.

    I’ve no doubt however there will be some interloper equivalents of Gerry and Q arguing about whether Troy should be retrned by the Turks to its “rightful” Hellenic owners.

    Howver, not having been to a turkish expat blog site could be completely wrong, let me know what you find :-)

  • Bendrix

    Gbevers is a beta male exerting his dominance on what he imagines to be gamma males.

  • Q

    It’s not only gbevers. There seem to be organized group of people — I suspect Japanese Nazis or Japanophile otakus — trolling on this blog.

  • hamel

    Q:

    Q: I no longer know what to say to you. You have stopped making sense. Do you actually believe Japan desires to colonize/conquer Korea all over again? It seems so.

    Isn’t it commonsensical that unrepentant criminal has high chance of doing the same thing again?

    No. That is laughable. One lesson that nations in the post WWII era seem
    to have learned (at least since China’s swallowing of Tibet) is that it is no longer acceptable for one state to take over another and make the latter a part of the former’s territory. Japan will not take over Korea again.

    Japanophile otakus are the worst kind of racists.

    Actually, I think you are no better, Q. Your racism is equally ugly.

    It affects daily lives of Koreans. Expats would not care because they will leave once earning enough to come back to home, like Keith and Year of Dragon said before.

    Then what do you really think you are achieving here, Q? Do you believe that if you convince enough 외국인, it will change anything? Or do you believe that if you can just once finally prove Gerry Bevers wrong in an argument, that you will have achieved something in the real world? Be realistic. This is an internet forum, talking about an issue (Dokdo) that will not affect people’s actual lives any more than they allow it to.

  • hamel

    Q:

    It’s not only gbevers. There seem to be organized group of people — I suspect Japanese Nazis or Japanophile otakus — trolling on this blog.

    Right. I want a list of names. You see an organization? Who is in it? Who is the leader? How is it organized? How are you sure that it is not a group of random individuals?

    Come on! Where is the evidence?

  • monsieur

    Q, have you ever read, “The Crucible”? You should sometime, and if you can’t figure out why I recommended you to wear it, just go ahead and swear a blood oath with the rest of your goose stepping, racist brethren at the Koreansentry forums.

    Believe me…the stuff that comes out of your fingertips onto this blog as well as that from the rest of your Koreaphile wangttas and Korean Nazis make your Japanese counterparts seem like The Peace Corps.

  • monsieur

    Q, have you ever read, “The Crucible”? You should sometime, and if you can’t figure out why I recommended you to wear it, just go ahead and swear a blood oath with the rest of your goose stepping, racist brethren at the Koreansentry forums.

    Believe me…the stuff that comes out of your fingertips onto this blog as well as that from the rest of your Koreaphile wangttas and Korean Nazis make your Japanese counterparts seem like The Peace Corps.

  • monsieur

    “wear” = “read”

  • Q

    Feel free have your opinion. Dokdo is not an illusionary issue for Koreans.

  • monsieur

    Q, honestly speaking, if your objective is trying to win over 외국인s to have more positive feelings about Korea, you are doing an absolute horrible job. If anything, your antics and posts definitely make originally neutral foreigners to come to dislike and hate Korea. Believe me, you are definitely not the first Korean to do so.

  • Q

    gbevers and his colleagues attract me like a black hole.

  • hamel

    Thanks to Q, I am starting to believe that GBevers might be right about Dokdo.

    I am henceforth going to cease donating 10% of my income to Friends United and Concerned in Korea about Damage to Ordinary Koreans Debating Online.

  • Q

    It does not matter what you think. Why should not Koreans express their opinions here, whilst Korea bashing trolls, like gbevers and his team are allowed? Isn’t it covert racism?

  • monsieur

    Q, when you watch the swimsuit competions of a Miss Universe Pageant, do you see and dream of nothing other than Japan, Dokdo, and GBevers? This is a serious question.

  • Bendrix

    Those Korean Internet right wingers are such Nazis compared to the many average Japanese citizens who say cults, organized crime, pachinko parlors and TV comedy in Japan are all run by Zainichi Koreans, the same way some Westerners blame everything on the Zionist Jews. And the uyoku in Japan who randomly attack old women on the street who “look” Korean. man, those Korean Nazis really need to tone down their eugenicist Internet rhetoric.

    I agree that all Zainichi must be sent back to Korea immediately. why are they in Japan, anyway? if you don’t like it, go home.

  • jk6411

    best/monsieur,

    You’re really obsessed with Korean internet trolls, you know that?

  • monsieur

    Not as much as Korean trolls are obsessed about Japan and GBevers.

  • jk6411

    Why keep feeding trolls? Why not just ignore them?

  • jk6411

    Why keep fixating on the most extreme commenters at the blog, whom people pay little attention to anyway?

  • jk6411

    You keep lambasting Korean internet trolls, but are you aware that you yourself are spewing pretty hateful stuff yourself?

  • Bendrix
  • Bendrix

    There are even people who say all the uyoku trucks in Japan are driven by ethnic Koreans. ha, talk about nutjob conspiracy theories.

  • hamel

    Q:

    It’s not only gbevers. There seem to be organized group of people — I suspect Japanese Nazis or Japanophile otakus — trolling on this blog.

    I am serious, Q. I want a list of blogger names. You see an organization? Who is in it? Who is the leader? How is it organized? How are you sure that it is not a group of random individuals?

    Come on! Where is the evidence?

  • hamel

    Bendrix: where are those folks? Bring them here. They might help to build the “organization” that Q keeps seeing.

  • Q

    꼭꼭 숨어라 머리카락 보일라.

  • monsieur

    Koreans are funny to watch when they start going 화병 on the internet. They remind me a lot of Fredo from “The Godfather”.

  • Q

    J represents jealousy. 화병 reminds me of this brave man.

  • hamel

    Q:

    꼭꼭 숨어라 머리카락 보일라.

    Is that the best that you can do, Q? Why not just admit that you don’t have any evidence that there is some kind of grand anti-Korean organization on this blog?

    If there is, let us know about it. I am sure Robert would be keen to know.

    I will keep pestering you with these requests for information until you respond, or Robert bans one or both of us.

  • hamel

    monsieur:

    Koreans are funny to watch when they start going 화병 on the internet. They remind me a lot of Fredo from “The Godfather”.

    You are not helping. I am not talking about Korean netizens, just one that is on this blog.

  • Bendrix
  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Why keep feeding trolls? Why not just ignore them?

    Very good question.

  • hamel

    Q is not a troll, Marmot, just a misguided soul.

    You came back early from lunch to say that?

  • Q

    I suspect it is related with sudden appearance of unfamiliar ids, — some of them were multiple ids — thronged the comfort women and Dokdo debates.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#136):

    Thanks to Q, I am starting to believe that GBevers might be right about Dokdo.

    Good! A new convert.

    If you would like to join my secret organization, you must undergo a background check, swear allegiance to the Houses of Oya and Murakawa, complete small arms and scuba training, and pass a final test that includes a nighttime beach assault on an island mock-up of Takeshima. If you successfully complete all the interviews, training, and testing, I will teach you the secret handshake and assign you to one of my Bever Brigades, where you will be assigned a Internet posting schedule.

    If you give me your address, I will send you all the documentation, along with a free Takeshima key chain.

  • hamel

    I suspect it is related with sudden appearance of unfamiliar ids, — some of them were multiple ids — thronged the comfort women and Dokdo debates.

    That is it? Nothing more? Do you know that Robert monitors the IP address of each commenter, and if he notices somebody using multiple IDs over a period of time to stir up debate, he bans them (like that fool Year of the Dragon)?

    If you think it is happening, send Robert a message asking him to examine certain IDs (you must specify which IDs you think are sock puppers).

  • hamel

    Gerry, I hope the brigade motto is “Nice Bever!”

  • Q

    Membership qualification of Nippon Kaigi could be very strict and secretive.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#160):

    Gerry, I hope the brigade motto is “Nice Bever!”

    No, Hamel, our motto is “Stop Screwing Bevers!”

  • hamel

    Q: so what?

  • Q

    The comments they left at the M. Hole are identical with the philosophy of Nippon Kaigi:

    Nippon Kaigi believes that we, that is, yours truly and other Japanese, should return to the traditional sense of unity focused on the Imperial Household. It believes that we should adopt a new constitution that reflects our national ethos that has been nurtured throughout our history. It rejects the “apology” diplomacy that unilaterally condemns ourselves over the last world war and seeks to achieve a true conservative politics.

    It is chaired by Tōru Miyoshi, an 80 year old former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

    Its fifty-five representative committee members include younger names, some of which might be recognizable to casual observers of the Japanese scene, such as Shintarō Ishihara, Tokyo Governor

    We support the visit of the Prime Minister to the Yasukuni Shrine and oppose the construction of a national facility for mourning.

    That’s why I suspect.

  • hamel

    Q:

    From your link:

    More specifically, Nippon Kaigi believes that we, that is, yours truly and other Japanese, should return to the traditional sense of unity focused on the Imperial Household. It believes that we should adopt a new constitution that reflects our national ethos that has been nurtured throughout our history. It rejects the “apology” diplomacy that unilaterally condemns ourselves over the last world war and seeks to achieve a true conservative politics. In education, it seeks history education that transmits our proud history, tradition and culture and education of the sensibilities that enables the recovery of our pristine virtues. It seeks to improve national security and contribute to world peace by, among other things, nurturing the people’s sense of reverence towards those who died in the war. Finally, it seeks world friendship.

    [emphasis added]

    Putting aside the wild contradiction between the first 5 sentences and the last one, have you actually seen people on this blog advocating any of the above?

    I think that you confuse two different things, perhaps because English is not your first language. There are people on this blog who have said (repeatedly) that Japan has apologized enough to Korea and China (make no mistake – I am not one of those people, for various reasons). But I haven’t seen any commenters here say that Japan should turn away from its apologies.

    Similarly, I haven’t seen anyone advocate the Prime Minister visiting the Yasukuni shrine in his official capacity as Prime Minister, and I think that is what Nippon Kaigi seems to be advocating above. I have seen people arguing that it should be okay for the Prime Minister to visit the shrine as a private citizen. The distinction might seem fine to you, but believe me, it is an important one.

    In fact, Q, I feel confident that if any members of Nippon Kaigi came to this blog openly arguing for the things it seeks to achieve, they would be ridiculed and challenged by the regular commenters here.

    Q, I think that you misread a lot of things on this blog, either in wilful or involuntary ignorance. I have told you before that this is not a Korea-hating blog. There are Korea haters in the world (as there are haters of most nations) and even on this blog, but they do not run the place.

    Rest easy, Q, your work here is already done for you.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    This is a clever video:

    Two Special Places for Koreans 2012

  • Bendrix

    since when have territorial rights been due to rightful ownership? if that were the case, America needs to give up the southwest to the Mexicans and Hawaii to the Hawaiian nativists. get a grip, you naive fools. maybe I should start a Sakhalin blog that explores in depth the hunting rituals of the Nivikhs and their corollaries with Russian samis.

  • Q

    Hamel, Nippon Kaigi is the headquarter of Japanese nazism.

  • Q

    Japan has blocked the linked article. Here is the text:

    ‘Japan Conference,’ pro-Yasukuni force, makes up the core of Abe Cabinet

    “Now that part of the postwar regime has fallen apart with the revision of the Fundamental Law of Education, it is high time to break the main part of this regime, the Constitution, and replace it with a constitution specially made for the Japanese people.”

    A recently published magazine called “Nippon no Ibuki (Breath of Japan)” enthusiastically welcomes Prime Minister Abe Shinzo’s call for “breaking away from the postwar regime” as a golden opportunity for constitutional revision. This is a magazine of the Japan Conference (Nippon Kaigi), which marks its 10th founding anniversary this year.

    The Japan Conference was established on May 30, 1997, through the merger of the “National Congress to Defend Japan (Nippon wo Mamoru Kokumin-Kaigi)” founded in 1981 and the “Society to Defend Japan (Nippon wo Mamoru Kai)” founded in 1974. The new organization was a product of their effort to unite rightist pro-constitutional revision forces that had promoted at the grassroots level since the 1970s movements demanding constitutional revision, legalization of the imperial era name, and opposition to the separate surname system for married couples.

    The Japan Conference at present is led by Chair Miyoshi Toru, former chief justice of the Supreme Court, Vice Chair Odamura Shiro, former president of Takushoku University, Vice Chair Yamamoto Takuma, chairman emeritus of Fujitsu Limited. They are also acting as representing worshippers for Yasukuni Shrine, the center propagandizing justification for Japan’s past war of aggression. Thus, the Japan Conference is recognized as the headquarters of the pro-Yasukuni forces.

    235 Dietmembers

    One day before the inauguration of the Japan Conference, the Japan Conference Dietmembers Council was formed with the participation of more than 200 dietmembers. As of June 2005, 235 Dietmembers of the Liberal Democratic Party, Democratic, and People’s New parties as well as independents joined this group.

    The Japan Conference and the Japan Conference Dietmembers Council came into being amid their “sense of crisis” that reflection on Japan’s past war of aggression could spread widely in society. In 1993, then Chief Cabinet Secretary Kono Yohei issued a statement expressing remorse over Japan’s conduct during WWII of forcing foreign women into sex slavery. In 1995, then Prime Minister Murayama Tomiichi in his statement expressed an apology for Japan’s past erroneous policy of aggression and colonial rule.

    The Japan Conference took a hostile view of these moves. Its prospectus said, “The ever spreading view of history of the Tokyo Trial (the International Military Tribunal for the Far East) is creating an obsequious diplomacy of apologizing to foreign countries and robbing young people who will bear the Japan’s destiny of their pride and confidence in their nation.”

    Since then, the Japan Conference has been trying to impose on Japanese society, fully making use of state power, their peculiar values justifying the past war of aggression and eulogizing the state and the society of Japan that rushed to war.

    The Japan Conference produced a movie entitled “We Won’t Forget” shown at “Yushukan”, Yasukuni Shrine’s war museum. This film praises Japan’s war of aggression, saying, “It was a war for self-existence and of self-defense in which 100 million Japanese people fought with heroic resolution for the continued existence of the state and nation.”

    Emperor at the top of the nation

    On May 3, the Preparatory Committee to Promote Enactment of a New Constitution, formed under the Japan Conference Dietmembers Council, made public a draft outline for a new constitution clarifying their view of an ideal nation.

    It proposed an emperor-centered nation, stating, “United around the emperor, the Japanese people have overcome many difficulties and developed their country.” It stipulated the emperor as “the head of the state.”

    The draft devoted a chapter to “Family” in which it states, “The value of family as Japan’s traditional and laudable custom is placed under the protection and assistance by the state.”

    It proposed a complete revision of Article 9 that renounces war, declares non-possession of war potential, and denies the right of belligerency.

    On the other hand, it calls for “a clear definition of the principle regulating human rights” and states that the Japanese citizens have “the duty to defend the nation.”

    The draft is calling for placing the emperor at the top of the nation, imposing restrictions on human rights, regarding the family as the basic unit of the nation, and mobilizing all citizens for war; hence, it is indeed calling for the revival of the prewar Japanese society.

    Causing concerns over its peculiar values

    The Abe Cabinet is pro-Yasukuni and led by members of the Japan Conference Dietmembers’ Council. Prime Minister Abe himself was the deputy secretary general of the council until 2005.

    Among 18 Abe Cabinet members, 12 are in the council. Combined with those who take part in other similar Dietmembers’ groups, the number of pro-Yasukuni cabinet members has reached 15.

    Furthermore, two vice cabinet secretaries and four of the prime minister’s special advisors also are members of the council.

    ‘Just war’

    Prime Minister Abe’s slogan, “Beautiful country, Japan,” comes from “reconstruction of the beautiful country,” a slogan that the Japan Conference put up at the time of its establishment. His call for “breaking away from the postwar regime” implies the reconstruction of a prewar national polity centered on the emperor.

    The pro-Yasukuni force is claiming that Japan’s war of aggression was a “just war,” and denounces the preamble to the Constitution calling for lasting peace as “a bond of apology to the Allied powers.” They appreciate “family values” established within the polity centered on the emperor as “a traditional and beautiful custom.”

    The fact that the pro-Yasukuni force, which maintains such peculiar values longing for the prewar society, has taken the center stage casts a shadow on Japan’s future. Concerns over it has been expressed even in the LDP itself and in the United States.

    At a symposium held in Tokyo on May 20, LDP House of Representatives Constitutional Research Committee Director Funada Hajime said, “Our party has started to deviate from the cardinal idea to restrain the state power by the limits imposed by the Constitution,” adding, “Mentioning of the idea to prescribe in the Constitution duties of people to love nation and other duties will make things dubious.”

    Isolated from rest of Asia

    Referring to Abe’s slogan of “Breaking away from the postwar regime,” U.S. Columbia University Professor Gerald Curtis said that it is hard to understand that the leader of a democratic country calls for a regime change of his own country and expressed his wish to hear Abe’s explanation about what part of the postwar regime is so bad.

    Francis Fukuyama, a conservative critic, said, “Japan’s unilateral revision of Article 9, viewed against the backdrop of its new nationalism, would isolate Japan from virtually the whole of Asia.” – Akahata, May 27, 2007

  • tinyflowers

    You almost have to feel sorry for Japan. An overpopulated, disaster prone island nation suffering territorial disputes and historical animosity with all of its neighbors. Then you remember that they were the greatest mass murderers, rapists and war criminals of the 20th century… I’ll never understand the apologists like gbevers et al. I consider them morally on the same level as the criminals themselves.

  • YangachiBastardo

    I’ll never understand the apologists like gbevers et al. I consider them morally on the same level as the criminals themselves.

    Japan has built arguably the greatest, most efficient PR machine the world has ever known in the guise of their female population

  • hamel

    gbevers:

    Yes, a clever movie. Japan has some good PR folks. Are you on the RSS feed for GloriousJapanForever?

  • Creo69

    “Yes, a clever movie. Japan has some good PR folks…”

    Call it “clever” but it also makes a valid point. Why don’t they take the matter to court.

  • hamel

    Creo69: have you read this blog before? Seriously, this issue has been raised before. Are you new to the issue?

    The video does some nice dissembling and obfuscating to make it look like the Koreans are only appealing where they don’t need to, and refusing the one place where they should. However, there is no equivalence there.

  • Creo69

    “Creo69: have you read this blog before? Seriously, this issue has been raised before. Are you new to the issue?”

    I think I was asking a rhetorical question…in other words, one where no reply is necessary.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#174):

    The video does some nice dissembling and obfuscating to make it look like the Koreans are only appealing where they don’t need to, and refusing the one place where they should. However, there is no equivalence there.

    Obfuscation? Make it look like? Over the past seven years Koreans have done stunt after stunt in place after place to try to convince the world that “Dokdo is undeniably Korean territory.” The genius of the video is that it simply shows a series of those stunts in almost every place imaginable while playing a “Sound of Music” tune in the background. Then at the end of the video, it asks the simple question, “So why haven’t Koreans tried to convince the International Court of Justice of their undeniable claim to Dokdo?”

    Hamel wrote:

    However, there is no equivalence there.

    No equivalence to what?

    By the way, Hamel, as a member of one of my Bever Brigades, you are allowed to choose your own codename. Think about it and let me know by e-mail.

  • provIdence

    I am thinking that the greatest contribution which 2MB has done is that Japan is now free from the “secret agreement” which apparently Japan has been strictly observing up to that point:
    http://japanese.joins.com/article/628/85628.html?servcode=200&sectcode=200

    Please find its English or Korean version by yourself. For a minimum of your understanding, I try to give my poor translation of the “agreement” below.

    (The issue of the islets shall be considered ) Resolved without Resolving:
    (1) Each party shall from now on recognize the other party assert that the islets are of their own territory, and at the same time shall not object refutations by the other party.
    (2) At demarcation of fishing zones in the future, each party shall demarcate assuming the islets belonged to each of them. Overlapped zones shall be fishing zones common to both parties.
    (3) The islets shall be maintained as occupied by Korea. Korea, however, shall not reinforce policemen on the islets, nor build new or reinforce existing facilities.
    (4) Both parties shall observe these articles well into the future.

  • hamel

    By the way, Hamel, as a member of one of my Bever Brigades, you are allowed to choose your own codename. Think about it and let me know by e-mail.

    I think your video has turned me back the other way, Gerry.

    But you didn’t answer my question: do you subscribe to GloriousJapanForever? Or is it because you do the English editing for their work that you are aware when a new film comes out?

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#178):

    I think your video has turned me back the other way, Gerry.

    Because it was inaccurate? If so, where? Or is it just because you don’t like the movie “Sound of Music”?

    But you didn’t answer my question: do you subscribe to GloriousJapanForever? Or is it because you do the English editing for their work that you are aware when a new film comes out?

    No, I do not subscribe to GloriousJapanForever. I saw the video on Japan Probe. And, “No, I do not edit their videos” or do any work for the Japanese government or any Japanese organization. And before you ask, “Yes, I was born in the United States and have a US birth certificate to prove it.”

  • hamel

    Because it was inaccurate?

    Yes. Or at least misleading.

    If so, where?

    Sigh. I choose not to get into that.

    No, I do not subscribe to GloriousJapanForever. I saw the video on Japan Probe. And, “No, I do not edit their videos” or do any work for the Japanese government or any Japanese organization.

    Ok thank you.

    And before you ask, “Yes, I was born in the United States and have a US birth certificate to prove it.”

    Great! But I don’t think that makes one immune from going off the deep end into Nipponophilia, a la our other Texan friend. Is he a neighbor of yours, Gerry? Do you barbecue together? ;)

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#180):

    Sigh. I choose not to get into that.

    Wow! How weird you would say that. I just had a feeling.

    Anyway, I have assigned you to Bever Brigade 3, and your codename is “Ass Talker.”

  • hamel

    Thanks, Gerry. It probably isn’t much of a codename, given that you have revealed it to all and sundry.

    Just curious, Gerry, would you say that the annexation of Korea (by Japan was necessary?
    Was the annexation of Korea an example of colonialist policy?
    And did the annexation of Korea require no apology from Japan?

    I ask these questions because the anniversary of annexation is coming up, so these questions are on my mind. (Others are welcome to reply, too.)

    ***
    Ass Talker

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#182):

    Just curious, Gerry, would you say that the annexation of Korea (by Japan was necessary? Was the annexation of Korea an example of colonialist policy? And did the annexation of Korea require no apology from Japan?

    You claim the Japanese video is inaccurate or misleading and an obfuscation, yet you not only refuse to tell me how the video is inaccurate or misleading, but you are also now obfuscating by changing the subject with inane questions about annexation.

    Let’s just call it a day, Ass Talker.

  • Creo69

    Code name: “Ass Talker”

    ㅋㅋㅋ

  • hamel

    When do I get my “goofball” stripes?

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#185):

    When do I get my “goofball” stripes?

    You have to push out a turd before I can judge it goofball. So far you are just blowing gas. In other words, you need to first make an argument.

  • hamel

    Well here is the argument then: Liancourt Rocks are not actually islands, since they are not self sustaining in terms of water or food supply. Therefore, ownership belongs to whichever country’s continental shelf it lies on. So all the maps and secret documents are interesting, but moot (or did Rusk and Van Fleet deal with this issue too?), and so there really can be no dispute over Dokdo, because it belongs to whichever state controls this peninsula.

    Now then, would you say that the annexation of Korea (by Japan was necessary?
    Was the annexation of Korea an example of colonialist policy?
    And did the annexation of Korea require no apology from Japan?

  • Q

    The record tells that ‘ass talkers’ were prevalent in the empire of rising Sun.

  • hamel

    Q: here you go again. First you claim that you only hate “Japanese Nazis” who are unrepentant, and then you go and criticize Japanese culture as a whole. Stop it, or you will convince all of us that you are an ethno-nationalist who really does hate all Japanese people and culture.

    And besides, Q, people are waiting for you on another thread to regale us with stories of American high school students smuggling drugs.

  • Q

    I assume the satirical paintings of ‘ass talkers’ were pertaining to fanatic Japanese nazis. They should not be common Japanese folks.

  • bumfromkorea

    Stop it, or you will convince all of us that you are an ethno-nationalist who really does hate all Japanese people and culture.

    That’s like saying Gbevers should really take a good look at himself before losing any modicum of respectability he has left.

    That ship has sailed, ran into a hurricane, and now at the bottom of the Pacific.

  • CactusMcHarris

    Trade modicum for soupcon and I’ll think you’re extraordinary spot on.

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#187):

    Well here is the argument then: Liancourt Rocks are not actually islands, since they are not self sustaining in terms of water or food supply. Therefore, ownership belongs to whichever country’s continental shelf it lies on. So all the maps and secret documents are interesting, but moot (or did Rusk and Van Fleet deal with this issue too?), and so there really can be no dispute over Dokdo, because it belongs to whichever state controls this peninsula.

    Congratulations, Hamel. You have earned your goofball stripes.

    Liancourt Rocks is not on a continental shelf. It is a vocanic island that grew up from the bottom of the Sea of Japan. The Rocks are the tips of an underwater mountain that starts between 1,500 and 2,000 meters below the surface. The mean depth of the Sea of Japan is about 1700 meters.

    A continental shelf generally refers to coastal waters that are less than 150 meters deep. Territorial waters extend out only 12 miles (22km) from a coastal state, so I do not know how you can claim Liancourt Rocks is part of Korea’s continental shelf since Liancourt Rocks is much farther away than that. Moreover, Japan legally incorporated the Rocks in 1905.

  • Veritas

    #177
    I personally find that article (or rather, the existence of such an agreement) as highly unlikely – for one thing this isn’t the first time South Korea “broke” their agreement. In regard to agreement #3, South Korea has both expanded existing facilities and constructed new ones after the said “agreement” but that didn’t really change Japan’s attitude about the issue.

    The said “agreement”, if true, also undermines the South Korean position that the Liancourt Rocks are obviously and always have been Korean territory – if it’s “obvious” there’s really no need for South Korea to enter an agreement with Japan to leave the issue intentionally unresolved, especially considering the fact that South Korea had the advantage by actually owning the islands.

    Personally I’m inclined to argue that the said agreement is a concoction rather than a genuine document/agreement.

  • hamel

    Okay, Gerry.

    Now then, would you say that the annexation of Korea (by Japan was necessary?
    Was the annexation of Korea an example of colonialist policy?
    And did the annexation of Korea require no apology from Japan?

  • http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/ gbevers

    Hamel wrote (#195):

    Okay, Gerry.

    Now then, would you say that the annexation of Korea (by Japan was necessary? Was the annexation of Korea an example of colonialist policy? And did the annexation of Korea require no apology from Japan?

    Sorry, Hamel, but I no longer take questions from goofballs.

  • hamel

    Please, Gerry, just answer those 3 simple questions.

  • provIdence

    If the secret agreement ever existed, Korea has broken the yakusoku many times already, so Korean media can be rather free-handed in searching the truth. Here is another story which I read through “machine” translation:
    http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/opinion/column/547295.html

    If it were existed, it would not be possible for Japan to react to Korean breaches on the basis of the agreement which is secret. Anyways, it would not have been possible to start the negotiations of the new agreement without that facility.

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