According to the JoongAng Ilbo, former British ambassador to North Korea John Everard apparently spoke at the Brookings Institute to mark the release of his book “Only Beautiful, Please: A British Diplomat in North Korea.” According to Everand, North Koreans display a rather surprising (given the amount of aid China gives them) level of dislike of the Chinese. For instance, one masseur who was quite OK working on Russians and Germans wouldn’t work on Chinese, saying they smelled bad.
Everand said it seems that while North Korean economic cooperation with China is growing, North Koreans’ deeply rooted independence is at work; for instance, North Koreans think the Chinese are arrogant.
Stanford University’s David Straub, who participated as a panelist, also recalled that when he accompanied James Kelly to North Korea in 2002, then-North Korean vice foreign minister Kang Sok-ju made comments that minimized Chinese assistance during the Korean War.
Everand said while North Korea is full of propaganda about American imperialism, ordinary North Koreans don’t feel particularly hostile towards the United States. He said there weren’t that many people who believed the United States would attack, and not many thought South Korea would since they believe the South to be an American puppet.
He also said that despite the initial debate in the United Kingdom over opening a permanent diplomatic presence in Pyongyang, he believed the placing of diplomatic legations in North Korea by countries like the UK, Germany and Sweden was having a great impact on the North.
You can listen to the entire address at the Brookings Institute website (and no, I haven’t gotten a chance yet).
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
This is such a B.S.
The majority of NKs love China. The blood brother who saved NK from disappearing during the Korean War.
This English diplomat is such a loser. A dumb-ass.
This is similar to a Polish diplomat reporting to his country that Korean young people hates the US more than China. And, he will report some anti-American demonstration done by Korean Commie youth.
However, that is just an attitude. If the war happens, all Koreans, even some Jolla Commies, quickly fall in line with the US.
The same thing here. All these NKs will quickly helping the Chinese attack SK when a war happens.
Very interesting perspective – thanks for posting this.
The guides I spoke to in North Korea didn’t like the Chinese. They were banned from visiting the Kim In Sung Mausoleum because they spit on the marble floor, and there was general disgust over their cleanliness at other places as well. The Rŭngrado May First Stadium toilets, for example, were full of shit – rather than lining up to wait for a cubicle they would squat on the floor and do a shit in the corridor. There was a general feeling that they were boorish, rude and dirty.
I gather that the Chinese are also pretty open in their contempt for the North Koreans and their leaders, where other groups tend to be more circumspect. Also, the Chinese are a much more visible group in the DPRK, sending by far the most tourists, and are therefore objects of envy. Dandong is visible from Sinuiji as well, and is clearly far, far richer than anywhere in the DPRK. I think the Norks even rank the Chinese as having the highest standard of living in the world.
As far as their historical view, the generals and soldiers at the DMZ have whitewashed the part China and Russia played in the Korean War. When we did our tour, the general who spoke to us pointed to a wall with all the names of the countries that North Korea had fought, and then announced proudly that they had done it all on their lonesome.
I don’t buy John Everard’s opinion that American’s aren’t disliked. It’s just a different sort of dislike to that reserved for the Chinese, which is a mixture of contempt and envy, and they’re not hated with the same level of bitterness as the Japanese.
Nobody likes the country they have to depend on. It’s why the U.S. needs to remove its troops from South Korea now.
I don’t thinks it’s BS and I don’t think the guy is ‘loser’ or a ‘dumb ass’. I listened to the presentation whilst eating dinner and I found it very interesting. I’d like to see his photos, they would be fascinating to see.
As the north Koreans are indoctrinated to believe that KIS kicked out the Japanese, the Americans started the Korean war and that China and Russia largely had nothing to do with the Korean war. It does no good to the regime to give any credit to ‘outside forces’.
Everard may be flogging a book, but his observation and opinions certainly hold some value. Everard sounds like a knowledgeable fellow in regards to commenting on that weird and eccentric country.
The Korean distaste towards China and things Chinese stems back to far history, it’s not going anywhere soon. Japan is definitely relatively more recent. Towards the US is a political/strategic thing, that can disappear overnight like it did in places like the former USSR and Vietnam because it’s not real.
and in English :
can you blame North Korea when China already has a plan drawn up to occupy North Korea turn it into another autonomous Chinese territory? Also masses of Chinese tourists who go on the wild life boat safari at the Chinese/NK border to watch all the North Korean animals live in their own habitats, while throwing snacks at them, doesn’t help the North Korean pride either. Then there are the matter of thousands of North Korean women sex slaves who are smuggled out and sold into bondage for pittance.
Heck, even the South Koreans have a hard time liking the Chinese, with all their shinanigans!
I don’t know anything about Everard, but after leaving State and landing at the Shorenstein Center at Stanford, David Straub was a visiting prof. at the GSIS program at SNU.
I would imagine there must be a few MHers who’ve studied under him. Given that his areas of study include both North Korea and anti-Americanism in South Korea, I wonder if any of his former students have anything insightful to say about him.
DLB
As Wedge noted, a chronic donor-recipient relationship breeds resentment on both sides.
Having now listened to Amb. Everard’s 35 minute rap at Brookings (the rest is all panel discussion), there are a few interesting take-aways, most kinda trivial, but still….
1. North Koreans still heat their homes with yontan (old-school Koreanists will have their own memories of this nasty little substance).
2. North Koreans are fond of chess (must be a Russian legacy thing, ’cause this is certainly not true in the South).
3. North Korea apparently has beautiful beaches on its east coast just ripe for tourism (nothing said, alas, about the surfing scene).
4. North Korean farmers prefer oxen to tractors because they don’t have to worry about spare parts or fuel.
5. The South Korean managers of the factories within the Kaesong Industrial Complex do NOT like to have their pictures taken.
6. North Korea’s famous traffic girls are slowly being replaced with traffic lights…and their pig tails are actually fake accessories attached to the back of their caps.
7. And my favorite: Amb. Everard claims that the North’s use of “michin-nom” translates as “American imperialist bastards.” It doesn’t, of course, but it’s adorable that he says it does.
DLB
Regarding 7, I think he was just mispronouncing 미제놈, which does actually translate as “American imperialist bastards.”
regarding number two in your list, thats pretty fascinating stuff.
north korean defectors say they play western playing cards over ther when most south koreans play the japanese hwato that even the japanese dont play with.
i just find these stuff fascinating like in the north korean misuda, we find out that in north korean children still play the same exact 쌔쌔쌔 game. but their variation of the double dutch jump roping is a funny north korean variation…
the initial posting makes sense to me. Americans must seem like abstract concepts for ordinary North Koreans. They always hear about how evil America is, but they never see one. Chinese on the otherhand, they do see, and get to have first hand experience of having to deal with them.
I mean, the Chinese tourists to North Korea must be China’s poor people who couldnt afford a real vacation to a tropical paradise, so they go to North Korea to feel better about themselves by remember how poor they used to be. Makes perfect sense to me why ordinary north koreans are annoyed by them.
marmot, if your post had a “thank” feature on the forum like other boards, your post number 11 would be thanked.
i probably wouldnt have pick that up. funny stuff.
I don’t think North Korean elites are totally in the dark about the real intention of the Chinese aid to North Korea. North Korean rulers know they are a buffer state for China, it’s probably they who feel they are doing China a big favor.
RK @ 11,
Yup, exactly. But that’s precisely why the mistake is so adorable…..especially when he went on to repeated it again just a few minutes later.
The real question is why the good ambassador would decide to use either cringe-inducing word in an audience filled with Korean attendees.
DLB
“It is interesting that with respect to China, Kim Jong-Il warns his countrymen to be vigilant, stating: “Historically, China is the country that forced difficulties on our country, the country that currently has the closest relations with us for now , but could become the country we need to watch most in the future. Keep this in mind and be careful. Avoid being exploited by China.” This frank appraisal explains the perturbed attitude which the late leader had towards his country’s long-term sponsor and ally.”
If his father had listened to China’s military advice, especially about mining the harbours, they may not have needed nearly so much Chinese cannon fodder.
BTW, I’ve loooooooong noticed (but never really thought about) how the suffix “놈” is invariably translated as “bastard,” e.g., mijae-nom, michin-nom, mikuk-nom, ilbon-nom….well, you get the idea.
So my question is this: Does “놈” actually mean “bastard,” or is “bastard” just a stand in for whatever other colorful vulgarity one could insert in its place?
Curiously,
DLB
dlbarch, i made a respectful gravatar of you. may i publish it?
놈 was just a Korean word for a person , nothing to do with bastard. I think the way bastard has acquired its lower connotation itself says interesting things about the western history/culture.
from http://www.italki.com/answers/question/109930.htm
Same could be said about 계집(kyejib) for women. At some point it started to take a lower tone.
Pawi,
I’ve always enjoyed reading your posts, but why do I think I’m about to get the Gerry treatment?
DLB
It depends on the situation and the context of the environment, but “놈” can be either insulting way to describe a person, or it could be used as a friendly jab, not necessarily meant to be insulting. But in the North Korean propaganda, it would be the first.
Apparently Kim Jong Il sarted surfing when he was 3. There are various reports around the place of good waves around Hamhung, but I’m not sure I buy it. The east coast of Korea has poor waves in general (as I’m sure you know), owing to the swell shadow created by Japan. Typhoons and small-scale wind fetches can create ridable waves on occasion, but I doubt the north-east would be a good place to hunt waves.
Still, it would be quite the adventure.
You’re a weird man. But yes, you may publish Mr. Barch’s gravatar.
dlbarch, i respect you. i would not give you gerry treatment. i put you in scholars hat. ya look cool like a mafia boss w those glasses on. plz wont you let me publish it? you will like it.
#10 “North Koreans are fond of chess (must be a Russian legacy thing, ’cause this is certainly not true in the South).”
Probably less to do with Russians and more to due with the availability of Starcraft. I heard the roll out date for video games is a lot later there.
“more due to the…”???
RE #19: As opposed to bone-rank Shilla and Confucian Yi, which assigned secondary status to children born to concubines?
Also, you don’t need electricity to play chess!
DLB,
Watch out, man, you’re going to put on a pantheon. And, just as an FYI, I never thought of you as a Mafia boss. Now, that Hoju guy’s a completely different story. I think you should give permission for The Treatment, but make sure you read the fine print, because you must understand the unique circumstances.
I Finnish guy involved in a seed potato development project told that people have been refurbishing their apartments for yeontan heating, installing pipes and laying new concrete floors as the originally installed heating systems have ceased working.
It would be very interesting to know, how the NK authorities have explained all those thousands of graves of the Chinese People’s Volunteers (CPV). Even Chairman Mao’s eldest son Mao Anying is still buried in North Korea. Maybe the official truth greatly downplays the numbers of these volunteers and their meaning for “winning” the war?
DLBarch @ 10
I found those points interesting too. Another one I found interesting was his observation that north Koreans, even in their leisure time do it ‘collectively’. South Koreans do it to.
I’m not an anti-social guy at all, but I do like my own space. It’s nice to be able to reflect on what’s going on in your life and just be by yourself sometimes. I think most people need that time, unless they’re very shallow types and ‘need an audience’. I play in a band and love playing to an appreciative audience, I also love just messing about on my guitar or computer at home making music that nobody else will ever hear.
I think this is a trait (collectivism) that both north and many South Koreans seem to have from what I’ve observed. If you do something on your own, it is seen as almost weird.
I went cycling tonight and had a great little ride along the river. I overtook a very slow guy with all the gear on in a large group of cyclists. He panted and panted till he got ahead of me. He then pulled over exhausted after getting about 100m in front of me. I carried on at the same average pace for the next 3km. I guess, he wanted an audience. I guess he couldn’t handle the ‘shame’ of being overtaken by a guy who wasn’t wearing all the gear, and wasn’t even riding a racing bike. I ride a mountain bike, and I’m not in particularly great physical shape.
I stopped at a convenience store to have a beer and a cig before heading for home, and the place was rammed with people who had just taken the subway out there (wearing all the ‘kit’) just to hang out with their pals and ‘pretend’ to be cyclists. They weren’t cycling, they were complaining that the chicken and beer deal wasn’t available at the store! They were pretending, preening, finding-the-group, conforming. Some of them had very expensive bikes and could barely ride them at all, I estimate that 25% of that group should have had training wheels on. I was rather saddened by the scene, ditched half a can of beer in the rubbish bin and headed for home.
The fact that Korea is so crowded, the herd mentality, the conformity, must all have a bearing on why Korea has such high suicide rates, the levels of churchgoing and of mental illness and stress.
Don’t be sheeple, be yourself.
Hey, Pawi, I also need a good gravatar! I want to see what I really look, and I know it can’t be like that old codger in the mirror. (This ought to be interesting . . .)
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Err . . . “what I really look like.” (Pardon my senior moment.)
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
use of yuntan probably means a lot of north koreans die each year by carbon monoxide poisoning…
which makes me wonder, do north koreans believe in fan death?
i wonder if it is a korean phenomenon or just limited to south.
Don’t be sheeple, Koreans — the white savior has the answer for you.
Do you like making stuff up? China wants to turn N Korea into a Chinese province. What the f is wrong with you?
You have to read the history for the last 2000+ years. It is not as simple.
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