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Feel the love AND Oh, why do the Taiwanese hate us so?

A couple of interesting, although not all together surprising, opinion polls and news stories recently.

Firstly, it turns out that—and you may want to sit down for this—that Japanese and Chinese don’t like each other:

About 84% of Japanese respondents said they have a negative impression of China, a six percentage point increase from the previous year, according to an annual bilateral survey conducted by Japanese think tank Genron NPO and the state-run publication China Daily that was released Wednesday. It’s the highest percentage of negative views seen among Japanese respondents since the survey began in 2005.

Meanwhile, 64.5% of Chinese indicated that the feeling is mutual, though this figure is a slight improvement from the previous year.

I’d almost be willing to pay money to see how the Chinese results would look like if the Global Times had done the poll.

Meanwhile, to China’s north, Mongolians have to deal with large numbers of Chinese workers at a mining site. And they don’t like it:

The high Chinese profile at one of Mongolia’s most cherished emblems of national pride isn’t coming at a particularly opportune moment. In April, Ulaanbaatar reacted badly to a Chinese bid for Mongolian coal producer SouthGobi Resources Ltd. Sensitive to encroachment and playing to a nationalistic gallery, the government suspended some of SouthGobi’s mining licenses and moved to restrict foreign ownership of “strategic industries” — including mining, banking and telecommunications — to 49 percent for deals worth more than $75 million, unless parliament grants an exception.
[...]
China’s increasing economic might, and the growing presence of Chinese businessmen and workers in Mongolia – some of whom inevitably start up relationships with Mongolian women – has led to a surge of anti-Chinese sentiment in the country in recent years, particularly among young, unemployed men. Chinese people are the chief targets of an neo-Nazi movement in Ulanbataar that made headlines in 2009 after the leader of ultranationalist group Blue Mongol, known to shave the heads of Mongolian women who slept with Chinese men, was convicted of murdering his daughter’s Mongolian boyfriend, reportedly because he had studied in China.

Chinese involvement in mining operations has occasionally led to flare ups in other countries, most notably in Zambia, where Chinese managers of one mine elected to try to contain labor unrest by shooting local employees last year.

Finally, in a recent poll, Taiwanese selected Japan as their favorite country:

The Interchange Association, Japan, which represents Japan in the absence of bilateral diplomatic relations, yesterday released a survey on Taiwanese perceptions of Japan, the third of its kind since 2008.

Similar to the previous two surveys, most Taiwanese continued to list Japan as their favorite foreign country or region, with 41 percent of respondents choosing Japan, 8 percent opting for the US, 8 percent saying China and 6 percent preferring the EU, while 37 percent offered no opinions.

The survey found that 39 percent of respondents regarded China as the country or region with which Taiwan should have closer relations, followed by Japan with 29 percent of respondents, the US with 15 percent and the EU with 3 percent.

Sixteen percent of respondents did not identify a specific country.

Again, to anybody who watched the 2009 World Baseball Classic, this comes as no surprise.

Nor does it probably come as a surprise that another Northeast Asian country was nowhere to be found on the Taiwanese list. Which naturally brings us to the following question:

Why is it that the Taiwanese seem to have a stick up their ass about Korea?

Now, I’ve never been to Taiwan. I’d like to go—I’ve heard it’s a lovely place, almost every Taiwanese I’ve met has been really friendly, it’s got tons of Japanese colonial architecture for me to see and photograph, and it seems it’s quite similar to Korea in a lot of ways. Point is, I don’t really know what Taiwanese think about Koreans other than what I’ve read in the Korean press, which is not good.

Anyway, with that in mind, Kim Bong-su of the Asia Gyeongje newspaper penned a piece last month on why Taiwanese like Japan and hate Korea. Kim notes that at least as far as Korea is concerned, it wasn’t always like this—the relationship between Korea and Taiwan used to be quite close, almost a “blood alliance,” especially when Chiang Kai-shek ran Taiwan and his junior at the Japanese military academy, Park Chung-hee, ran Korea.

Everything changed in 1992. That’s when Korea rather unceremoniously cut its diplomatic relations with Taiwan to establish relations with the PRC, closing the Taiwanese embassy in Myeong-dong and handing it over—as is—to China. Taiwanese watching this on TV felt betrayed, especially considering how much aid the late Chiang had provided Park.

More recent factors have made things worse. Korea’s big corporations have pulled ahead of Taiwanese small and medium-sized corporations—previously seen as Taiwan’s strength—in the high-tech sector; with Korea’s GNP and national power surpassing that of Taiwan, Taiwanese now feel jealous of Korea. Ditto goes for the Korean Wave, which Taiwanese—who consider themselves culturally superior “continental” people—find unpleasant.

Feelings towards Japan, on the other hand, are warm. This despite the fact that Taiwan, like Korea, was ruled by Japan as a colony. The Taiwanese, however, view the colonial era very differently—namely, they see it as having prepared the base for Taiwan’s modernization.

Even when unpleasant incidents involving Japanese take place in Taiwan, they’d don’t generate general “anti-Japanese” sentiment. When Japanese entertainer Makiyo Kawashima’s yakuza boyfriend assaulted a Taipei taxi driver for having the temerity to tell him to put on his seat belt in February, the press were all over it, and the once-popular entertainer’s career in Taiwan was finished, but it did not lead to a rise in anti-Japanese sentiment. The Taiwanese government got directly involved to settle things down, and the incident was soon forgotten. A Korean in Taiwan said if it had been a Korean involved, it would have led to a big stink. Despite a yakuza being involved, it did not lead to anti-Japanese feeling, he said, and then the whole Jeremy Lin crazy hit and all was forgotten.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • 2xA_norcal

    The answer to your question posed in the title of this post is obvious – you’ve haven’t been to Taiwan yet.

    My best bud (a Korean-Am) and I traveled there last winter, and man it was like everyone and their whole family were watching k-dramas and listening to k-pop. My best friend personally had the time of his life, even off on his own when I had to take off early back to the States.

    The problem with these ‘polls’ is that the most vociferous, negative haters tend to misrepresent themselves since they speak out the most anyway. Majority of Taiwanese are whatevers on these ‘tensions’, and certainly don’t have a ‘stick up their ass’ re: Koreans.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Why is it that the Taiwanese seem to have a stick up their ass about Korea?

    a much more interesting question is why, given a shared and even longer period of Japanese colonialism, the Taiwanese don’t suffer from the sort of obsessive/compulsive hatred of Japan that afflicts koreans

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    jealousy for both china and taiwan. lol.

  • 2xA_norcal

    Oops, I meant ‘overrepresent’ themselves in the first comment.

    @ 2: Taiwan had a fundamentally different experience with J-colonization. From the outset a lot of local TW felt betrayed by the imperial Qing gov’t when it ceded TW to Japan back in the late 1890s. So the seeds of an identity shift was planted way back then. Moreover, TW, being Japan’s first colony, the Japanese gov’t wanted to show up their fellow Euro imperialists, and prove that they can build up and develop a colony even better. A lot of Taiwanese, aside from the aborigines, liked it for the most part. After WW2, Chiang Kai Shek’s heavy-handed clampdowns there only pushed TWers further into favoring Japan.

    Imho, aside from that, once there are available, immediate and proximate arenas and avenues for communication and interaction as in the States, people are straight chill with each other. It’s dumb posts like these that don’t help none, and has the double-negative effect of obstructing interethnic harmony and giving fuel to the psychological masturbation agendas of ultranationalists everywhere.

  • 2xA_norcal

    I meant dual negative effects, my bad.

  • thedrew

    Long time reader(3years?) first time poster.

    Have to totally disagree about the Taiwan hate from my personal experience, and it is related to the first reply. My daughter appeared in a TV show here and since it was related to KPop, the show got quite an international following (which was a pleasant surprise). On Facebook the “likes” for her account were tallied by country and Taiwan was first and had 3x more than Korea. I would never had guessed this, but the numbers dont lie.

    I’m not really sure the demographic in the survey, but this kind of thing being posted can’t really help the situation.

    Keep up the goo work!

  • thedrew

    Long time reader(3years?) first time poster.

    Have to totally disagree about the Taiwan hate from my personal experience, and it is related to the first reply. My daughter appeared in a TV show here and since it was related to KPop, the show got quite an international following (which was a pleasant surprise). On Facebook the “likes” for her account were tallied by country and Taiwan was first and had 3x more than Korea. I would never had guessed this, but the numbers dont lie.

    I’m not really sure the demographic in the survey, but this kind of thing being posted can’t really help the situation.

    Keep up the good work!

  • cm

    Taiwan was an island of aborigines, having never dealt with the Japanese, they welcomed the Japanese as their rulers. The Taiwanese already accepted Japan was a better ruler than the Chinese. Koreans on the other hand, had already self preserved identity as a nationhood with a long bloody history of wars with the Japanese, resented the Japanese rule as an invasion, and resisted. The Japanese violently put down the resistance, with some horrible atrocities. Taiwan’s like Germany invading the Island of Tonga, while Korea is like Germany invading France. Apples and oranges.

  • Arghaeri

    Moreover, TW, being Japan’s first colony

    I’m guessing the other terratories colonised before TW might not accept that statement.

  • 2xA_norcal

    @7: I’m pretty sure Taiwan was JPN’s first colony. But I guess one can also argue that Ryukyu/Okinawa was.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Not only the Ryukyu’s, which is clear; one could make a case for all of what became known as Hokkaido

  • 2xA_norcal

    @9: Very true, but then you gotta draw the line at some point.

  • dokdoforever

    cm – Taiwan was an island of aborigines in the 1600s. Then came the Dutch, then rule by Coxinga the Ming loyalist and then Qing dynasty rule. Aborigines only make up 1 or 2% of the present population and were certainly under 10% after 1949. The so-called “native” Taiwanese are Chinese who migrated to Taiwan from Fujian and nearby provinces from the mid 1600s up to 1949. The 10% of ‘mainlanders’ came over with Chiang in 1949.

    What others said here is correct. Taiwan owes its identity and defacto independence to the Japanese. Also some of its culture – in particular the orderliness and politeness in public.

    Why do Taiwanese express anger towards Korea? Of the three countries to have abandoned Taiwan diplomatically (J,K,US) Korea is the only one that the Taiwanese do not depend on to maintain their defacto independence. To fend off China, Taiwan can’t risk offending Japan or the US. That’s not true for Korea.

  • dokdoforever

    Robert, how is Taiwan’s GDP ahead of Korea? Check the CIA World Fact book: Taiwan’s ppp GDP is US $38K, Korea is at US $32K.

  • dokdoforever

    “Mongolian Neo-Nazi”?? Either they are self-loathing Nazis, or they must have removed the part of Nazi ideology which considers non-Aryans as subhuman.

  • PineForest

    If I remember my history, there was a quite a wave of emigration to Taiwan from the mainlandin the 1660s when a dynastic shift was underway.

    The nightmare in 49 probably has gone a long way to erasing Japan as the bad guy and putting the nationalists closer to the fore for TWs who were around before that date.

    The money quote:
    “”The Taiwanese, however, view the colonial era very differently—namely, they see it as having prepared the base for Taiwan’s modernization.””

    Korea will never figure this out.

  • http://globalasianculture.com Liz

    Robert, I would argue that the Taiwanese have a better attitude towards South Korea than they do to mainland China. Cross-straits relations have improved over the past decades, but that still hasn’t stopped Taiwanese media from displaying its intense dislike of the PRC as a political entity. Next Media Animation has gained popularity — even James Fallows loves them — because of its cynical and critical videos of China.

    As an observer of popular Asian culture though, I have to say that Taiwan’s biggest Achilles’ Heel is probably the fact the country doesn’t really stand for anything. The Taiwanese know what they are *not* — but as a culture though they are still trying to figure out who they are.

    And say what you like about South Korea’s 20th century quota on Japanese cultural imports — in place until 1998 — but in retrospect it may have helped Koreans find their own voice in film and music. Needless to say, Koreans now dominate in Asian entertainment — pulling ahead of the Japanese esp. in the Southeast Asian market. Taiwan never found its cultural independence, its youth relied heavily on Japanese culture for cues, and — to be quite honest — has some issues to figure out.

  • Charles Tilly

    The money quote:
    “”The Taiwanese, however, view the colonial era very differently—namely, they see it as having prepared the base for Taiwan’s modernization.””

    Korea will never figure this out.

    Well……. I don’t know about “Korea” never figuring it out. However, I do know of a Korean or Koreans who think they have it “figured out.”

    But there those who say that they don’t.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    ‘ The money quote: “”The Taiwanese, however, view the colonial era very differently—namely, they see it as having prepared the base for Taiwan’s modernization.””

    ‘Korea will never figure this out.’

    probably more like koreans reject the conclusion as justification for japan’s occupation. i wonder if you have figured THAT out.

  • http://dok.do/4aVK41 Year of the Dragon

    Well……. I don’t know about “Korea” never figuring it out. However, I do know of a Korean or Koreans who think they have it “figured out.”

    But there those who say that they don’t.

    I feel sorry for you for having to read that shit..

  • iMe

    Liz,
    could you elaborate further? what issues are they facing?

  • http://globalasianculture.com Liz

    @19

    You mean aside from the soft power cultural chip on the shoulder?

  • Arghaeri

    one can also argue that Ryukyu/Okinawa was.

    since even japanese history accepts it was before TW, the only argument would be your draw the line theory rxcluding any that predate it.

    Very true, but then you gotta draw the line at some point.

    Yeah, lets conveniently ignore historical facts and draw it conveniently wherever it suits your statements ignoring same.

  • Arghaeri

    one can also argue that Ryukyu/Okinawa was.

    since even japanese history accepts it was before TW, the only argument would be your draw the line theory rxcluding any that predate it.

    Very true, but then you gotta draw the line at some point.

    Yeah, lets ignore historical facts and draw it conveniently wherever it suits your statements ignoring same.

  • H.Schmidt

    Taiwan’s pro-Japanese situation is similar to Japan’s pro-American situation.

    When America (the US) nuked Japan twice and Japan surrendered, the Japanese bowed down to the Americans and developed deep respect for them. Even these days, the Japanese have a deep respect for the Americans.

    Taiwan was invaded by the Japanese when the Han Chinese were already living there. However Taiwan had two situations at the time. Submit to China’s cultural rule or the Japanese cultural rule (Japanese culture was highly influenced by European and American culture). Taiwan went for the latter and the Taiwanese believe that the Japanese are more trustworthy than the Chinese.

    The situation in Korea is different. Koreans had fought with the Japanese for centuries and Koreans often looked down on Japan as an island nation full of savages (I heard Koreans have many derogatory terms for describing the Japanese such as “jokbari” and “waenom”). When the Japanese invaded Korea, Koreans were infuriated and resisted.

    Nowadays, Koreans still hate the Japanese. The situation is different among Taiwanese who see the Japanese as best friends. When Korea donated millions of dollars after the 2011 Japanese earthquake which killed 20,000+ people, Japan responded as if they didn’t receive the donations, yet they had a newspaper article with a headline reading: “Taiwan donates $x dollars for victims of the 2011 East Japan earthquake”. No mention of Korea’s support.

    Furthermore, when Korea hosted a TV program in providing sympathy for the Japanese after the 2011 earthquake, this was uploaded onto YouTube. Thousands of Japanese netizens disliked it as they thought it was Korea trying to make fun of the Japanese. There is an irrational hatred among Japanese towards Korea.

    And yes Robert, I saw the headlines last year of the Taiwanese taxi driver touching the breasts of a half-Japanese and half-Taiwanese actress/singer and then the Japanese boyfriend severely beat him up. There was NO anti-Japanese sentiment in Taiwan after the incident. If it was a Korean boyfriend who bashed the taxi driver up, there would have been an all-out protest to the Korean embassy in Taiwan and Taiwanese boycotting Korean products.

    Another source of rivalry between Korea and Taiwan is the economy. Korea is a trillion dollar economy with a GDP (nominal)/capita of >$20,000. Taiwan is nowhere near a trillion dollar economy and has a GDP (nominal)/capita of less than $20,000. Korea is forecasted to overtake Japan by 2015 in GDP/capita. Also Korean brands like Samsung, LG, Hyundai, Kia, Hynix are lightyears ahead of Taiwanese brands in image and quality.

    Taiwanese companies have to resort to buying Korean made hardware parts for most of the stuff they make (screens, mobile devices, etc). Taiwanese like to think of Koreans as “rivals” but many Koreans can’t even differentiate between Taiwan and Thailand.

    Korean companies have also surpassed Japanese companies when it comes to electric, shipbuilding and construction. The only reason why Japan has a higher GDP is because there are more people in Japan to spend money, hence more output in terms of necessities like food, homes, roads, etc. 25% of Japan’s population is above the age of 65 and the health expenditure is more than double of the two Koreas combined. Japan’s elderly is a huge burden on the Japanese economy as elderly people typically have more diseases like cancer, diabetes and kidney disease, etc.

    Another source of extreme jealousy towards Korea is the fact that North Korea has $6 trillion worth of mineral resources. With North Korea’s relatively young population combined with South Korea’s developed infrastructure and production, a unified Korea will surpass Japan in terms of production and economic competitiveness. Japan’s population is just too aged to really combat their economic situation. Korea has to implement strict measures (like promoting more births and stop sending kids for overseas adoption) to avoid the same problems.

  • RolyPoly

    It is like the relationship between Britain and India and the relatinship between Britain and some former British Isles.

    The difference is Britain took so much out of India. Japan took so much out of Korea, even madated name change and Shinto worship. I do not think Taiwan endured them.

    If Japan left Korea asit were, Koreans could love them too. But Japs were SOBs, never tolerant.

  • RolyPoly

    Schmidt,
    Unified Korea will become like Russia -mob controlled.

    Samsung and Hyudai are Japanese front companies. Real know-how comes from Japan.

    Korea will be done when NK mob move down South.

  • judge judy

    it’s always nice to see you bring the sijo structure to these threads, baduk.

  • H.Schmidt

    RolyPoly,

    Most screen panels are designed in Korea and exported to Japan, Taiwan, etc. In terms of vehicles, Korea gets more input from European models and you can see many Hyundai cars are influenced by European design, not Japanese/Indian design.

    Korea is the largest shipbuilder in the world and we know how complex products ships are compared to cars.

    The Japanese blame the yen for their loss of competitiveness but I think it’s not the yen. It’s the loss of competitiveness of Japanese companies due to the fact that a quarter (25%) of the Japanese population is over the age of 65. Also, Korea has superiority over Japan in many industries.

    Many of the people who are researching in Japan’s R&D facilities are old people (i.e. >60 yr old ojisans who don’t have modern skills). That’s why you don’t see many quality products coming from Japan these days. Old people have outdated knowledge and skills and thus contributing to Japan’s economic problem.

  • RolyPoly

    H.Schmidt,
    From whence comes Hybrid technology? Japan. 3D TV? Japan. Samsung is paying tons of royalty to Japan. And, Samsung stock ownership is always a secret. I bet over 60% is owned by the Japanese.

    Hyundai car parts are coming from Japan. I bet over 40% of important parts are from Japan. And, also 60% of stock is owned by the Japanese.

    Outdated? Japan is just maintaining low profile. While sucking up the real wealth from Koreans.

  • commander

    RolyPoly June 25, 2012 at 10:47 am

    H.Schmidt,
    From whence comes Hybrid technology? Japan. 3D TV? Japan. Samsung is paying tons of royalty to Japan. And, Samsung stock ownership is always a secret. I bet over 60% is owned by the Japanese.

    Hyundai car parts are coming from Japan. I bet over 40% of important parts are from Japan. And, also 60% of stock is owned by the Japanese.

    Outdated? Japan is just maintaining low profile. While sucking up the real wealth from Koreans.

    Wow. Just wow. I guess founders Lee Byung-chul (Samsung) and Chung Ju-young (Hyundai) were actually Japanese then.

    You, my friend, are clueless. Just take a look at the R&D spending by Samsung Electronics alone and you might just begin to get an inkling of a clue of how much cutting edge technology is being developed by Samsung, all the Apple paranoia aside.

    Hyundai Motors has a unique vertically integrated model that gives them a competitive advantage. 40% of important parts are Japanese? Bah hah hah.

  • Awarren

    Other than one small chip design center in Israel, the result of one of the very few acquisitions Samsung has ever, Samsung does almost no real research overseas. And anyone (and you certainly are not one of them Commander) who has spent even a short time working for Samsung or any Chaebol in Korea knows that that no cutting technology is being done inside Korean Chaebols, with the exception of some improvements on the technology already out there – that was either licensed or “borrowed” from others. And RolyPoly is right about the licensing from the Japanese.

  • Awarren

    Correction – few acquisitions Samsung has ever “made”

    In fact, 2 overseas acquisitions overseas in the past 15 years if my information is correct – both valued under $100 million. Now pray tell, how does a hierarchal company with no fresh infusion of new blood, technology or anything in the past 15 tears manage to design anything dazzling in Korea, especially when 3-4 layers of management from the design head down are all Korean (in case you were going to say that foreigners here in Korea are actually involved in any real R&D).

  • Lliane

    “in case you were going to say that foreigners here in Korea are actually involved in any real R&D”

    I can hardly imagine that, as there is no real R&D in Korea to begin with. Japanese companies still do all the high precision ceramics that electronic devices depends on more and more.

    They know they control the whole industry for at least the next 10 years through those companies like Kyocera, where real R&D is done.

    Foxconn is just putting those components together and Samsung/Apple is just marketing/distributing them. At least Apple is developing an OS, whereas Asian companies are always terrible with making software (blame those confucianists)

  • Lliane

    “in case you were going to say that foreigners here in Korea are actually involved in any real R&D”

    I can hardly imagine that, as there is no real R&D in Korea to begin with. Japanese companies still do all the high precision ceramics that electronic devices depends on more and more.

    They know they control the whole industry for at least the next 10 years through those companies like Kyocera, where real R&D is done.

    Foxconn is just putting those components together and Samsung/Apple is just marketing/distributing them. At least Apple is developing an OS, whereas Asian companies are always terrible with making software (blame those confucianists)

  • commander

    Awarren June 25, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    Other than one small chip design center in Israel, the result of one of the very few acquisitions Samsung has ever, Samsung does almost no real research overseas. And anyone (and you certainly are not one of them Commander) who has spent even a short time working for Samsung or any Chaebol in Korea knows that that no cutting technology is being done inside Korean Chaebols, with the exception of some improvements on the technology already out there – that was either licensed or “borrowed” from others. And RolyPoly is right about the licensing from the Japanese.

    Again I say very confidently that you have no clue what you are talking about.

    First, just to be clear, we are talking about Samsung Electronics. They are dominant in computer chips, smart phones, LCD panels, flat panel displays along with many other electronic products ranging from data storage devices to telecom gear to PC’s to refrigerators. Some are more high tech than others.

    Samsung has the #1 market share in DRAM memory chips, #1 in NAND flash memory, and are the primary supplier of application processor (AP) chips to the two largest smartphone/tablet PC makers in the world, Apple and Samsung. Innovation, including cutting edge R&D, is critical to grow and maintain market share in these domains. The Japanese are a tiny tiny speck in the rear view mirror. Some licensing is paid to US companies like Rambus and Qualcomm but the rate of innovation is passing them by.

    Foundry is next, and I can assure you that the Taiwanese powerhouses TSMC and UMC are shitting their pants just thinking of Samsung entering their domain. The chip business, driven by Moore’s Law, changes at an mindboggling rate, requiring cutting edge R&D and massive capital investment. Samsung Electronics spent $9 billion in R&D in 2011. You are right that Samsung does very little research overseas; but who the hell cares about some piddly little symbolic center in Israel when you literally have thousands of Ph.D.’s in Samsung’s R&D centers in Giheung and Suwon among their more than 50,000 R&D personnel worldwide. Some of those Ph.D.’s are some of the most respected names in the industry, including foreign nationals.

    Let me repeat it for you numbskulls out there: $9 BILLION DOLLARS in R&D. Samsung Electronics had sales of $145 BILLION DOLLARS in 2011. No wonder the largest Japanese DRAM maker, Elpida, filed for bankruptcy. No one can keep up. The only Japanese chip maker of any significance left standing anymore is Toshiba, and you know they do not sleep well at night.

    Samsung Electronics is a R&D powerhouse with an unmatched portfolio of cutting edge technology for chips, displays (especially OLED), and devices. The ignorant masses cannot even fathom how much cutting edge technology can be produced by $9 BILLION DOLLARS in research.

  • commander

    Lliane June 25, 2012 at 9:26 pm

    “in case you were going to say that foreigners here in Korea are actually involved in any real R&D”

    I can hardly imagine that, as there is no real R&D in Korea to begin with. Japanese companies still do all the high precision ceramics that electronic devices depends on more and more.

    They know they control the whole industry for at least the next 10 years through those companies like Kyocera, where real R&D is done.

    Kyocera??? You are joking I hope. They should stick to their ceramic knives and grinders. The high precision ceramics are not what’s going to stop Samsung from making their $15 BILLION DOLLARS in operating profits, after they have already spent $9 BILLION DOLLARS in R&D and $20 BILLION DOLLARS in capital expenditures. You are obviously clueless about how semiconductor chips are made, and the whole high tech industry for that matter.

  • cm

    Here’s an interesting comparison between Samsung’s and Apple’s R&D.

    http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+to+Invest+42B+USD+in+2012++Mostly+on+Chipmaking+OLED+TVs/article23796.htm

    Samsung doesn’t do any R&D? You must be joking, seriously.

  • cm

    “That’s why you don’t see many quality products coming from Japan these days.” – H.Schmidt

    That’s because the quality items they make is invisible to the consumers. Japan’s strength is in their SME companies that export to the world. That’s something Korea should learn from, but have been unsuccessful.

  • Q

    It seems Taiwan hated S. Korea even before disconnection of the diplomatic tie. Dong-ah Ilbo news article of 1984 headlined “Taiwan, rising anti-Korean sentiment”:

    http://blog.naver.com/saskian?Redirect=Log&logNo=40118225024

  • http://geoju.kr fanwarrior

    Agree with #1, my adult student just got back from Taiwan, she said it is Korean stuff everywhere, music, dramas, food, she said the CD stores basically had 2 full sections dedicated to kpop and 1 section (total) for every other kind of music including taiwanese

  • 2xA_norcal

    @Arghaeri: I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, when I said “you gotta draw the line somewhere”. Allow me to clarify: I am not ignoring the struggles and plights of other peoples/societies who were colonized by Japan before Japan colonized Taiwan. Nor was I invalidating your statement about the grudges the Okinawans have.

    The original question that I was responding to revolved around the differences in reactions toward Japanese colonization as manifested in Korea and Taiwan. The model frame used to compare the two, then, is the relationship between a former colonizer and a formerly colonized entity whose sociocultural AND political identity and independence is recognized both internationally and domestically.

    The “line” that I am drawing separates the above and the following group: colonized sociocultural entities that have become wholly (or at least partially, in the case of Native American tribes) absorbed into the society and political bounds of their colonizers. The issues predominant in their debates with their “colonizers” is, I’m sure you know very well, center around equal rights and treatment, possibility for self-governance or greater self-governance, etc.

    Of course, historical memory is also a critical issue to both groups of relationships which I tried to describe above. But each group responds to and uses such memory will obviously be different.

    Without this line, something like this will happen, more or less:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5xVRXLgLxw

  • cm

    #41, that has nothing to do with whether Taiwan hating or liking Koreans.

    In 2009, South Korea was polled as the most disliked country by the Taiwanese. South Korea even beat China in this regard.

    The reason?

    This Chinese Global Times article below (with factual errors like 12 million Korean tourists to China, and no mention of the fabricated rumors about Koreans claiming Chinese stuff) is the reason why Taiwan, which still falls under the Chinese cultural sphere therefore sympathetic to defense of pan-Chinese culture, hates the Koreans who are allegedly trying to steal the Chinese culture.

    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/716201.shtml

    Then the 2010 Taekwondo match at the Asian games in China, between China and Taiwan, where a Taiwanese woman was disqualified for breaking the rules, caused a massive protest against Koreans and boycott of Korean goods. Taiwanese claimed that the Koreans fixed the match to give China the win. Nobody ever explained why would Koreans do this.

  • Awarren

    Commander,

    Samsung is a powerhouse manufacturer – period. They bunch every technician and any warm-body with some kind of technical skill into their R&D resource pool and are very creative when reporting their R&D figures. You, Commander, are either a paid Samsung operative (unlikely because your English is too good), someone heavily invested in the company (more likely), or someone who somehow derives self-importance for yourself and Korea on Samsung’s supposed greatness (most likely). I will ask you, however, is your impression of Samsung based on direct experience working or supplying something to the company (services, consulting or whatever), or are you simply spouting the usual fluff you find out there from Samsung’s promotional mumbo-jumbo which just gets regurgitated in trade magazines and the business press?

    Samsung has been successful at growing market share and pushing out competitors in maturing industries with chicken game tactics and steamroller investing – both which carry extreme risks in terms of the future. Samsung is NOT a leading company in terms of technology or innovation – which was my original point.

  • commander

    Oh God, Korea just gave Taiwan another reason to hate it and feel inferior. The Korea U-21 team just humiliated the Taiwan team 8-1 in soccer (2013 U-22 AFC Championships). It’s not the first time either. Haters are gonna hate. ;)

  • commander

    Awarren #44 – you are still clueless if you do not acknowledge Samsung as a leading company in technology and innovation. What you say may be true 15 years ago, but the world has changed and Samsung is sitting on top of the technology heap due to their powerhouse manufacturing and their innovative technology.

    This is pure bull: “They bunch every technician and any warm-body with some kind of technical skill into their R&D resource pool and are very creative when reporting their R&D figures.” You can’t cook the books to the tune of $9 BILLION DOLLARS in R&D. By the way, Samsung set a target for more than $11 BILLION in R&D in 2012. They literally have thousands of Ph.D.s working in their R&D centers in Korea, trained in both Korea and overseas.

    Keep guessing about me. I’ll tell you what I’m not: I’m not a Samsung employee and never was. I do not own a single share of Samsung stock (though I wish I had bought them a while ago). And I most definitely am not a Samsung fanboy, in fact I have a love/hate relationship with them. My experience is directly working with them. I respect what they have accomplished in the past 10-15 years. Their technology is extremely impressive, and their leaders are smart, tough and highly motivated.

  • RolyPoly

    commander,

    Do you know what percentage of Samsung stocks are owned by Korean nationals? Lee’s family owns less than 5%. Yet, they are the CEO family. Why is that? Who is the silent majority owner?

    I think it is Yakuza.

  • commander

    Who is the silent majority owner?

    I’m not answering that. That’s a clown question, bro.

    Clown Question

  • Lliane

    “They literally have thousands of Ph.D.s working in their R&D centers in Korea, trained in both Korea and overseas. ”
    1. A Korean PhD is NOT a PhD
    2. An English Litterature PhD is NOT a PhD
    3. Translating user manuals is NOT R&D, I know firms all other the world classify that as R&D to get tax returns, but it’s definitely NOT R&D (nor is paying “noraebang” classes to foreign scientists during conventions)
    4. Buying german machine tools is NOT R&D
    5. Paying licensing fees to other companies is NOT R&D

  • commander

    #49 Lliane, okay you have sufficiently demonstrated your ignorance once again.

    Moore’s Law governs semiconductor technology and innovation. You cannot fake the rapid development and commercialization of 20nm and 10nm chip technology. Simply stated, whoever can fit the most circuits on the chips the fastest wins. The reason Samsung can play the chicken game successfully is they have a technology and a manufacturing advantage. The Taiwanese competitors are basically out of business trying to compete with Samsung because they don’t have the R&D dollars to keep up. I’m not going to sit here and explain to you how it works, because frankly, I don’t think you have the mental capacity to grasp it although it’s really not all that complicated.

    So continue to ignorantly and stubbornly believe that all this is not happening. I am not defending Samsung; I’m just stating facts.

  • Lliane

    Moore law is so 1990′s

  • thedrew

    This debate between you two is legendary.

    I’d like to add that a Samsung CEO (there are 21 of them) that I worked with said, and I quote “The future of Samsung is not Samsung electronics”……

  • yuna

    I think about SONY when I think about Samsung vs Apple etc.
    I think there is a lot to learn from that.
    Hardware-led innovation vs software/design power, at one point it was obvious which was more cool or in, but without the support of matching hardware it’s hard to be in the game long-run, and that’s where Samsung can be in it for long-run. Also Korean consumers are (sometimes notoriously) not worried about the latest/new things at the cost of ridding of old, and this will keep Samsung on the edge.

  • H.Schmidt

    I have to agree with commander on this. Samsung is the most innovative tech company in the world. Samsung is the world’s largest electronics company in the world by volume and provides most of the parts for Apple’s devices.

    Sharp (a Japanese company) FAILED Apple’s quality control test when Apple was releasing it’s new iPad 3.

    Samsung PASSED and is the sole provider of Apple’s Retina displays, the sole provider of Apple’s A5X processors, and the sole provider of Apple’s RAM and storage components.

    Not only is Samsung the world’s largest electronics company, it is also the world’s largest shipbuilding company. Samsung engineers and produces ships for various armies, LNG carriers, luxury ships, etc. At distant second place is China but they make small inferior ships.

    As commander stated, Samsung Electronics alone made more than $20 billion in profits in 2011. Sony lost more than $5 billion and is going to lose more as it can’t spend much on R&D due to their losses. So Samsung will still be superior to Sony in the long run because Samsung is constantly doing R&D as their profits skyrocket.

    It has little or nothing to do with the yen. I am neither biased towards Korea or Japan but I will always pick Korean products when it comes to electronics. Japan’s quality has dropped dramatically and sometimes I think even the Taiwanese are making better products than them.

    Japanese electronics companies have no money to spend due to their huge losses in 2011. This means their R&D will suffer and so their competitiveness will be inferior. Look at what happened to Elpida when it suddenly filed for bankruptcy and Toshiba failed to save it.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    An English Litterature PhD is NOT a PhD

    Apparently, someone doesn’t have a Ph.D. in English literature.

  • yuna

    Also Korean consumers are (sometimes notoriously) not worried about the latest/new things at the cost of ridding of old, and this will keep Samsung on the edge

    This in comparison with

    The first thing I wanted to check then was how well Samsung TV sets were doing in Akihabara – Japan’s biggest electronics bazaar. To my shock, I found out that not a single Samsung TV is being sold in Japan — at a time when the global market was flooded with Samsung TVs.

    from this interesting article : http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/pop-blog/4370919/Sony-pride-turns-to-disillusionment

    Koreans will get their hands on iphones if it’s cool even if it’s only available to them at 20 times the price 10 years later. They have less qualms about being such blatant consumers than the Japanese.

  • yuna

    And two more very interesting pieces by the same woman:

    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4199607/Samsung-Scares-Japan

    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4079295/Samsung-s-Yun-Shy-master-of-Korean-management

    “[The] best companies in the world are collapsing. We don’t know what is going to happen to Samsung too,” he said. “In the coming 10 years, businesses and products that represent Samsung today will mostly disappear.”

    Say what you will about Kunhee Lee, I like how he is aware, even at his age.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    re: discussion on Samsung. Was talking to one of the project managers on the Google Nexus / Samsung partnership at Google and he said “Samsung is an awesome company.”

    It’s not just Korea observers and fan boys now. The business community knows it too. Nothing wins an argument better than what’s on the scoreboard. People who don’t see it are stuck the 90′s or early 2000′s.

    Reminds me of what one of the top Japanese game developers once said:

    “I want to talk about Korean products too. Why are there no Korean products in Japan? Japanese people believe that Korean products are much worse than Japanese ones, that they’re very bad. But throughout the world, they’re more successful than Japanese products.

    Japan won’t admit that Korean products have won the battle. Everybody is buying Korean cars and TVs from Samsung and LG and all the big players. They have good quality products for lower prices. It’s not bad quality or anything. That’s why people are buying Samsung over Panasonic now. But Japan won’t admit it.”

    http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2012/04/keiji-inafune-qa/

    It’s this kind of attitude that will be Japan’s undoing…. not a stronger yen.

  • yuna

    However, I am equally weary of Japanese admitting defeat, to me it’s 설레발 (over-the-top premature cautiousness). No way Korea has ‘beaten’ Japan in anything.
    Whenever I go to Japan I come back feeling, “still they are on a different level’. The fact that they have an domestic economy of a size large enough just meant that a lot of their companies did not actively pursue the global dominance in marketing.
    Also a lot of Korean companies and products benefited from being (mistakenly) assoicated with Japan outside Korea. The awareness of Korea as a country is still very low.
    No matter what, still, Samsung, (and South Korea) is a textbook case of innovation taught at business schools in Europe. Most of these schools are innundated with Chineses students from China and other Chinese speaking countries.
    That is the state of affairs at the mo.

  • redwhitedude

    What about mainland chinese dealings with Taiwan? I’ve heard that areas that are dominated by ethnic han chinese such as singapore, HK and Taiwan tend to complain about the boorish and unhygienic habits of mainlanders. Are they totally blind to that? HK used to look at the mainlanders are poor cousins now they are crying foul over discriminatory treatment of certain department stores in favor of rich mainlanders. Not to mention that PRC may be tampering with the democratic politics of HK.

  • cm

    South Korea has been marginalized, underestimated, and has been written off so many times, yet it still comes back again and again. The way Japanese view Koreans with contempt, is a microcosm of the way the world views South Korea because South Korea is not visible to them. This is what drives South Koreans – a burning desire to prove the world wrong. This is a competitive advantage for Korea, when your competitors constantly underestimate you, so they are not going to bother you with exploiting your weakness. The spotlight is on somebody else, it’s sometimes better to operate under the radar.

    I’m going to go out on my limb and I will predict the country will once again reinvent itself all over again, surprising everybody once again. How it will change, I’m not sure. In twenty years, it will be another totally different country, an economic force to be reckoned with at an entirely different higher level.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    This is true. Japan is still quite a bit wealthier than Korea and still has the key to important technologies. Korea also has a huge trade deficit with Japan, about 11 billion a year or so because most major Korean products need Japanese components.

    However, Japan’s current malaise does not bode well for its future or its relative position with China.

  • redwhitedude

    The really pathetic thing for Japan is that it was their lead for them to lose and they have done one hell of a job losing a lot of it within the last 20 years.

    If trends continue Japan will ultimately lose a lot of their manufacturing which has already moved to other countries like the US due to the high yen.

    Japan looks like it might get shove aside or ignored somewhat due to their stance on WWII atrocities. They used to get away with it but not anymore.

  • Ssamzi

    It’s not even like Korea and Taiwan have had any major interaction for Korea to get this much disoriented hate from Taiwan. Some Taiwanese always seem to try to collect the pettiest reasons to hate Koreans. Their media isn’t coy about producing even completely fake news. There was even a fake Taiwanese news article recently that claimed Koreans are claiming Jeremy Lin is part Korean. That was just another little bashing session with an ego booster: Koreans are jealous of someone from Taiwan! On the other hand, many Taiwanese youngsters are into Korean pop culture stuff. You can easily notice the extremes on both ends.

  • H.Schmidt

    Korea and Japan are relatively equal in terms of PPP GDP/capita (the most accurate measurement of GDP/capita). Therefore Japan is not really wealthier than Korea. Also it’s Korea who is supplying all the key components to Japanese companies. Sony and Sharp TV’s and displays use LG IPS panels and Samsung TN panels. In terms of RAM and processor components, all of them are manufactured in Korea. Apple only uses Samsung displays, processors and RAM/memory because Samsung uses the newest architecture for these essential technical components. Japan is still stuck in the stone age in these areas.

    Furthermore, Japan’s standards of living is getting worse and worse as the nuclear radiation contamination spreads throughout the Japanese archipelago. Various Japanese people are reporting radiation related illnesses and warning their children about birth deformities and telling them not to have children of their own. Japan’s nuclear radiation problem will not go away. Even after thousands of years, nuclear radiation will still taint Japan because the radiation released from the Fukushima reactors have extremely long half lives.

    Japanese people are basically like rats in an experimental study. They are being subjected to long term nuclear radiation which will cause cancers, infertility and birth deformities. I would hate to live in Japan right now and I feel sorry for all the Japanese people living there.

  • Awarren

    You know the thread is winding to an end when it becomes the usual – “Samsung must be great (no arguments there), therefore Korea is great” circle jerk by the usual suspects.

  • http://pawikoreapics.blogspot.com/ pawikirogii 石鵝

    ‘South Korea has been marginalized, underestimated, and has been written off so many times….’ cm

    well, that’s their biggest mistake right there. they don’t understand who they’re dealing with. koreans play for keeps. count them out at your own risk.

  • YangachiBastardo
  • takasar1

    why is the writer so obviously insecure? he seems to mirror korean insecurity himself