Judging by what is now 363 comments on Yuna’s post about eating dogs, you’ve all probably had your fill of the dog debate.
If not, The Hole’s very own, TK, has penned, “Dog Meat and the Cultural Conquistadors,” an epic 7,000 word piece on the issue as part of a series on Haps.
Needless to say, the comments section ain’t pretty. Understandable, with choice passages like this:
“Animal rights groups are ultimately not interested in the welfare of dogs. They certainly care about the welfare of meat dogs, but only as a means to their ultimate end – that is, the validation of their worldview through cultural conquest.”
Whether you agree or not, hats off to a thorough presentation of his case.
{ 41 comments… read them below or add one }
Not once does the Korean address the most important point: there is no way to farm dogs humanely, because they’re protein-dependent, highly intelligent creatures and very difficult to handle. Regulation might improve conditions somewhat, but the practice of farming dogs will always be brutal.
As for the rest, it read like one long inferiority-complex manifesto.
Gandi once said that “the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” (1869-1948).
Was the famous Indian also intent on cultural conquest, or does it only count when big-nose is the culprit?
i seem to always agree with you Hoju and this case is no different. it is just that if there is one thing i’ve learned about TK it’s he’s got more stamina than almost anybody when it comes to defending a stance…
i suppose it is best to leave this one alone and let sleeping dogs lie
#1
Gandhi had a prominent nose.
This did actually cross my mind, moments after I posted it.
I did like the “This article is as disgusting as it is irrational” comment. Not that I agreed with it, but it’s always entertaining when an article/post provokes such outrage.
I’ll be keeping my hat on, thanks.
My favorite comment from the referenced piece is:
I don’t agree that he’s a moron, but TK’s cognitive abilities are obviously impaired and his penchant for sophistry increases geometrically when he’s fueled by his reserves ethno-nationalist resentiment, and this screed is just the latest and longest example.
In fairness, there are a hell of a lot of feverish animal rights activists that can’t actually put together a cogent argument to save their lives. I can see how they could annoy the crap out of people.
Lawyer fight! Lawyer fight!
Only if TK gets into his usual shadow-boxing mode. I don’t do lawyer any more.
Question: is it possible to farm any sentient mammal humanely at all ?
From what i gather industrial production of meat is a nasty, nasty affair (but this is not enough to turn me into a vegan, you guys pardon my moral bankruptcy)
It’s not very nice to dismiss TK’s argument with a laugh and a patronizing wave of the hand. I do think he makes a fair point that animal right’s activist groups didn’t improve dog’s welfare by opposing the Livestock Processing Act, and that it’s unfair to picture dog-eaters as monsters.
I myself cannot understand people who eat horses, but I wouldn’t be against people eating them if I knew the horses had at least a fairly normal life with plenty of grass and open air. Sadly, certain breeds of horses no longer have any other purpose and would disappear if not for the food industry.
I wonder if animal activists are as virulent in eradicating frogs from French gourmet restaurants…
@11
You’re right; TK’s seeding the water with all sorts of red herrings, like the ridiculous implication that the reason a change in Korean law was not made was a result of the protests of the wingnut animal rights activists, is no laughing matter. His captious rant is filled with one after another of obvious fallacies very deliberately designed to distract attention from the fact that he has no answer to the arguments against his position so well stated by Hoju.
Did TK make a good argument? Did he address Mr. Hoju’s central point? Should we eat dogs or not? Is the criticism of eating dog meat and subsequent efforts to ban it a form of cultural imperialism?
I could care less. I’m just glad that either TK or the editors of the piece had the good sense to put up that shot of the sexy PETA girls.
CT,
The girl on the right has some artfuly-growing hair or a tattoo above her mound – does it really read ‘Eat at Kim’s'?
Depends how you want to measure “humanely”, I guess. But cows are docile, easy to feed, and generally live quite well in captivity, with minimal stress. At some farms they live good lives. Pigs, while fairly intelligent, will happily keep their snouts in the swill while their best friend is getting slaughtered next to them.
Dog farms are, without exception, horrific, and they’ll remain so even with a Livestock Processing Act in place, sad to say.
Me thinks dog meat will die a natural, and fairly quick, death in Korea. Considering how style-conscious the country can be and how rapid social mores shift, i wouldn’t be surprised if the whole industry soon ceased to exist, simply out of lack of clientele.
I mean c’mon can you guys envision the kids in BAP or KARA eating dogs ?
PS
I have nothing against eating dogs, food is an area where i’m a relativist: what is sacred to one group is disgusting to another
Just so I don’t have to read through 7000 words of bullshit, is TK actually trying to claim that the meaningless and powerless protesters actually bear responsibility for the putrid state of the dog meat industry and the lack of regulation? Seriously? And he’s doing this without getting laughed out of the room?
Seems pretty clear that in assigning responsibility for the horrific practices and hygiene of the industry, sitting directly on top of the inverted triangle are those in the industry itself who are, oh you know, actually making a conscious choice to employ and carry out the practices. Running a close second are the government weasels who have the authority and power to stop it, but refuse to wade in and regulate (feel free to swap those two depending on your view of government regulation). At the very bottom of the heap, several light years away in distance and pulling in a microscopic and irrelevant fraction of blame, are the powerless, easily ignored, sign-holding buffoons and activists who do absolutely nothing but stand on the fringe and yell at those with the real power and control.
No really, you’re not actually saying that an esteemed “intellectual” like TK threw all logic and reason out the window and flipped that triangle of blame while magically transferring all the power, control, and responsibility to some fucking protesters, while completely exonerating the industry that chooses to carry on such practices and the government that has the power to regulate but turns a blind eye to it, are you?
That doesn’t seem possible unless he’s intentionally trying to make himself a laughingstock. There must be some other explanation.
One thought that occurs to me about TK is when the hell does he have time to practice law? Most lawyers I know back in N.A. do a 60 hour work week followed by equal amount of time on the golf course and in the pub. If you consider the volume of work he produces at his own blog and this one, waging holy war in response to slights real and imaginary in the comments sections, and now producing tomes at Busanhaps, perhaps the man needs a life in addition to an editor.
There is: Korean Pride™
@Angusmack
Interesting point. Has anyone actually seen any proof that he’s a lawyer? The laughable case he’s filed against legitimate protesters in that article certainly imperils his credibility as such.
Speaking of Red Herring…
hoju_saram #15- “Dog farms are, without exception, horrific, and they’ll remain so even with a Livestock Processing Act in place, sad to say.”
I don’t have a dog in this fight, I’ve never eaten dog and I don’t intend to in the near future. But I’m not sure if you can be so dismissive about the possibility of raising dogs in a more humane manner.
It’s the abuse that’s deplorable, not the actual idea of eating dog. Banning dog consumption because of the way they’re raised/treated is correct, but if the industry were properly regulated (OK, perhaps not a sure thing here), then Koreans don’t have to justify their dietary preferences to anybody.
I’m worried: TK hasn’t jumped in to defend himself on this like he always does. What’s up? I would have expected a veritable army of strawmen to have been created by now.
I loved the article and the comments it produced. Really, though, one doesn’t need 7,000 words to figure out that the average pig is about as intelligent as the average dog, and over 99% of westerners have eaten pork at some point. If they have a problem with intelligent animals being kept in confined spaces and then butchered there are thousands of farms back home they could protest. Go to a pig slaughterhouse sometime. The pigs know that something’s very wrong, can smell death in the air, and often have to be prodded electrically to the slaughter. Does that stop me from just fucking loving bacon, ham, samgyupsal, and galbi? Not in the slightest.
I love how, aside from Hoju, the entirety of the comment section is basically a list of assorted arrangements of the words “ethnocentric”, “nationalist”, “inferiority complex”, “obvious fallacies”, and “laughable”. And a ‘tl;dr, but I’m gonna write an argument against it anyway’, for good measure.
Great counterarguments, fellas. It reads like a transcript of a Fox radio show.
They’re calling TK a Kenyan Muslim out to destroy Mercuh?
@21. You mean TK isn’t proud of Korean traditions IMO, the argument from tradition is the strongest one’s he’s got, as well as constituting the motive factor for all his verbiage and argumentative dishonesty. Ad hominem is not a fallacy when a disputant makes it a substantive issue – sort of like a defendant opening the door to evidence of past. Ad acts by. Allimg his own character witnesses first.
“Ad acts by. Allimg his own character witnesses first.”
Sperwer: A little early to be on the sauce, no?
I’m guessing he’s on a smartphone.
You’re (and it’s not just you) just throwing one claim after another without providing any details. You just give bunch of huge premises that you’re just assuming is true (tradition-based argument is the strongest, the arguments are dishonest, the dishonesty is fueled by some ethnocentric spite), which makes your arguments sound like ad hominem with fancier rhetoric.
It’s like the GOP calling Obama a socialist, because he’s a socialist and makes socialist policies that are so socialist. (TK is an ethnonationalist, because he’s an ethnonationalist and makes ethnonationalist arguments that are so ethnonationalist.) Sounds like a Murdoch rhetoric to me.
… Hmm, comment awaiting moderation. I guess that was either one too many “socialist” or one too many “ethnonationalist”.
The smartphone touchscreen is like Kryptonite to Sperwer’s oversized, superannuated meathooks.
You naysayers realize you are only reinforcing TK’s greatness, right? Seriously, sky’s the limit.
But, please pardon my lack of daring for “an epic 7,000 word piece.”
Yu Bum Suk,
You’ve got in wrong on the pig analogy. Pigs will happily eat swill while their best friend gets slaughtered right next to them; they show no sign of curiosity or stress. They can also be led around with a bucket. Nor do they require expensive protein to be healthy. There’s a reason dogs are fed other dogs while they’re waiting to be butchered.
In theory, I’m sure it’s possible to farm dogs in a way that minimises their suffering. But I’ve never seen any examples, and I’m willing to bet my left nut that the Korean and 99% of other dog-eaters have never inquired about the treatment of their fare before eating it. Ever heard of free-range dog? At the end of the day, economics and the commercial realities of farming dog leads inevitably to horrible practices.
@30 – not to mention surgical wound scar tissue, recurrent dupuytrens knots and fighters hands osteoarthritis. Life’s a bowl of cherries.
hoju, I had a part-time job driving a meat-delivery truck for a while, which mostly consisted of picking up sides of pork and delivering them to shops and restaurants. At the slaughterhouse the smell of death was very evident and you could tell that the pigs sensed something was up. Some of the pigs I delivered also had marks on the skin of their backs from being beaten or teeth scars on their side from being mis-matched with larger swine.
Are dogs more compatible with humans? Of course. Does this make eating them worse than eating pigs? Of course not.
I lived and worked on a pig and cattle farm for the first 17 years of my life. Some piggeries are badly run, and animals can definitely be mistreated. But there’s no comparing them to dog farms – not even close.
Never said it did.
‘dem piggies be smart. And tasty. Gotta be sure to cook ‘em well, though.
Obviously, I eat dog, but I wouldn’t argue dogmeat opponents are “cultural imperialists,” certainly as a rule. Sure, some are, but not all. Depends on what they are arguing.
I did enjoy the takedown of Ms. Herrington’s piece, though, even if Ms. Herrington herself seems like a nice enough young woman from her blog.
@ Robert
It just seems to me that everyone is phasing in and out of the either/or fallacy mid argument.
Just realized that I repeated what I wrote @ 15. Anyway, while it might seem I’m really passionate about stopping dog farming, I’m actually very close to fence-sitting on the subject. A part of me is a realist; we’re apex predators, and dogs are protein, lower down the food chain. Who am I to tell people what they can and can’t eat?
Still, having seen how they’re treated, I can’t help but feel pity for farmed dogs. And as a once-purveyor of good meat, I’ll never understand the attraction of dog for the table.
Pathetic really, out of all the things there are to defend in the world…to be known for the right to eat something for the taste at a cost of so much suffering and grief to others.
I agree with ihbb.
I tried to read the essay, but immediately was turned away at the beginning by “how bad it is for an average dog about to be put on the table” because the main theme had *now* become “let’s blame the current state of affairs on the animal righters”
from the former stance “it’s not so bad, all the practices like beating them to death is outdated”. I mean, I don’t know how it works in real law, but that sort of obvious 180 degrees, it’s quite distasteful.
Conducted my first deposition yesterday. Thought I was going to die. Got two more coming this week, so it will be hard to see me online anywhere.
And more importantly, I stopped caring about this forum as far as this topic goes.
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