Oh, the circus that is GNP gets better and better. Go Seung-Deok, a GNP Assemblyman (whose claim to fame is being the only person who passed all three major civil service exams,) said that in the GNP convention held during the last National Assembly session, one of the candidates for GNP’s chiefdom [대표] sent him an envelope filled with KRW 3 million in cash. Go said he returned the money, and the candidate won at any rate.
Go declined to name the candidate, but only two people who won the party chief seat during the last Assembly session (i.e. between 2008 and 2010) was Park Hee-Tae (currently the majority leader) and Ahn Sang-Soo. Ahn is considered to be the more likely culprit, because his election was more competitive. Both Park and Ahn, of course, denied the charges.
GNP Emergency Response Committee requested the Prosecutor’s Office to investigate. Sources say that a large amount of cash changed hands during the past GNP conventions.
It is interesting to see how this would affect GNP’s effort to reinvent itself. On one hand, persistent allegations of corruption are obviously negative for the party’s image. But there are some who believe that this is actually Park Geun-Hye’s high level politics. Because the people who were alleged to have given the money are the pro-Lee Myeong-Bak old guards, corruption investigation against them would naturally take them out of the party’s power. At any rate, this is just too much fun.
{ 208 comments… read them below or add one }
It might also be that for the GNP, envelops rather than apple boxes is considered progress.
DLB
Good point! It went from a whole company, to trucks, to apple crates, to envelopes. Next step might be gift certificates.
Koreans being Koreans. What a surprise.
This is not even about GNP or Liberals, considering that it wasn’t even long ago when Roh Moo Hyun committed suicide rather then face the corruption charges.
You’re funny, TK.
Laughable. The corruption on the progressive side does not even amount to 1/100th of the corruption on the conservative side. The total amount alleged to have been given to RMH’s family was $6 million, assuming $1 = KRW 1,000. In 2002, when Lee Hoi-Chang ran against RMH, the GNP received $80 million in illegal campaign funds. And this is before taking into account Chun Doo-Hwan’s $1 billion slush fund, Roh Tae-Woo’s $500 million slush fund, Kim Young-Sam’s $300 million illegal campaign fund received from RTW, and the millions of dollars received by Lee Myeong-Bak’s relatives (that are known so far.)
Whether conservative or non-conservatve, Korean politicians can be bros and sis when it comes to their own salary. 국회의원 연봉 5% ‘기습 인상’
And the bro/sis-hood of politicians is not exclusively found in South Korea: High salaries for Italian lawmakers stir anger.
Ohio Senate Democrats argue against pay cut for themselves, but take a pass on voting against it.
Anyway, if you think membes of Congress are sneaky now, look at the forty-second Congress of 1873. It not only gave itself a salary raise of 50%, but then made it retroactive for two years.
#4 Are you conveniently forgetting about Kim Dae Jung and his dealing with North Korea, and his son’s crooked business dealings? So all the GNP rule has been marred by corruption. But so have all the Liberal rules that followed it. What’s really laughable is your attempt to equal corruption with GNP, when this is about Korean cultural penchant for corruption.
3 million KrW ? That’s not a bribe..that’s coffee break money, c’mooooooonn
#5 Don’t know why but it’s just this melody comes to mind when it comes to the GNP and corruption.
#7 – well then considering who’s throwing the stone, this reminds me of this lady, 임수경, who was a university student back in 1989, defied the National Security Law to visit North Korea. Look what she had to say about the 386 generation who demonstrated for democracy, who are now in politics.
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/01/05/2012010502611.html
3 mil??? I’m guessing he gave the money back because he felt insulted.
First, about KDJ’s son Kim Hong-Geol. Just the amount that was alleged (i.e. not proven) against KHG is barely over $1 million. So try again. Tally up all the corruption charges against the progressives. You can read Korean and search on it, right? Go ahead and do it. See if it reaches even 1 percent of Chun Doo-Hwan’s $1 billion, Roh Tae-Woo’s $500 million and Kim Young-Sam’s $300 million.
Second, about the money KDJ spent on North Korea. That money was spent on diplomacy, not corruption. Not a penny of that money was spent to increase personal wealth, pay off cronies or influence elections. But even if I go so far as to accept for the sake of argument that the money KDJ spent on North Korea counts as bribes, the total “corruption” by progressives is still a small fraction of the total corruption by conservatives.
She looks like having had eyelid surgery. Feel bad for her son’s death in the Philippines while studying English. Anyway, I often wonder why progressive Korean politicians and activists give birth to their children in the US, have them exempted from military service, and take advantage of education in the US.
보수는 원래 그런 부류의 사람들이라 그런가 보다 하지만, 진보는 뭔가 다를 줄 알았는데 뚜껑 열고 보면 그 나물에 그 밥이라.
TK, the Liberals were in power for only ten years. Of course you’re going to see less examples if you’re going to compare it to the political parties going all the way back to the Chun Doo Hwan era.
The fact that you only stole $500, but the other guy stole $50000 is immaterial. You are both thieves, and corruption is corruption. Like I said, this is a cultural thing, not a Conservatives vs Democrats.
A 3M bribe isn’t much, but it’s enough to get ten years in prison, for a sitting Assemblyman.
So what? Conservatives were in power for 15 years prior to the 10 years of progressive administrations. Does 50% more governing years explain away the 100-to-1 disparity?
That simply makes no sense. A person who steals $10 deserves a slap on the wrist, but a person who steals $1,000 deserves prison time for grand theft. Both morality and law require blame and punishment proportional to crime. What are you going to argue next — fender-bender and vehicular homicide are the same? (You are both dangerous drivers!)
But then again, it is just like Korean conservatives that you have no moral compass.
Progressives’ corruption, what little there is, is a cultural thing. GNP’s corruption is institutional and structural. That party exists to siphon money from the private sector. It has no ideology, no policy direction, just blowing with the wind trying to desperately hang onto power. The GNP’s Emergency Response Committee suggested that GNP should take out the word “conservative” from the party’s mission statement. Some conservative party that is!
TK, look at the record of your progressives’ ten years in power. You talk of ideology and policy directions as if the Socialists and Communist nationalists… oops I mean the “progressives” invented those words. That’s too funny. If you think sucking up to North Korean and Chinese behinds while alienating and driving away all of Korea’s true friends, then sure.
If you want to see how a inept leftist government can take good country and turn it into a debt ridden corrupted isolated socialist country begging for another international bail out, then go ahead, vote for people like Park Won Soon for president.
I’m not sure what Moon Kook-hyun is up to these days, but word on the street is that he can be bought and paid for in exchange for a Starbucks gift card.
DLB
Are you talking about a coffee break at a room salon?
But while the relationship between the amounts might be correct, the sizes of the amounts differ significantly from what is actually observed. Instead, it’s possibly USD millions for one, and USD hundreds of million for the other. Clearly, the latter received vastly more, but IMO, neither is engaged in a minor violation of the law. They may not be equals in crime, but both are clearly corrupt.
Way to change the subject, cm. Out with it. Admit that progressives are less corrupt than the GNP. Given that you cannot tell me how the progressives gave and received more bribes, there can be no other conclusion.
But having said that…
This is just too fucking funny. Do you remember who was the president who took a good country and turned it into a debt ridden country begging for an international bailout in 1997? I’ll give you a hint: he is the founder of the GNP.
I think in the end NoMuhyun jumped off the cliff because he thought exactly this, as he came to realize what had happened without his knowledge (i.e. what his wife had done)
If we are trying to be precise, it is more like tens of millions versus billions.
You are right that neither is a minor violation of law. But one is clearly far, far more corrupt than the other.
#18 – yuna, that’s really convenient (to blame your wife), after what you’ve done (destroyed all the classified documents so that people can’t get at all the dirty laundry). Progressives less corrupt? It may not just involve strictly money, but nevertheless, they are still all corrupt.
“You are right that neither is a minor violation of law. But one is clearly far, far more corrupt than the other.”
For a party that supposedly stands against corruption, how can they even be partially corrupt? Take a million here and another million there, and continues to wail against GNP corruption. It’s too funny, the hypocrisy of it all.
Now that you can’t get away from the conclusion that GNP is more corrupt, you are trying to dance the dance of false equivalence. Tell me, can you never stand against drunk driving if you go over the speed limit just once?
Sure, that’s true. And, keep in mind that the USD hundreds of millions that guys like Roh Tae-Woo took back then have a much greater present-day value. I laugh when I think of claiming that he didn’t have enough to pay his fine. Still, I feel that, regardless of party, the amounts taken are off the scale of normalcy. I’m financially very secure, yet in comparison, the amounts they take in violation of the law far exceed any legally-acquired amounts that I normally experience in my life.
I maintain no sentimentality for any of them. To me, corrupt politicians are cut from the same cloth; despite their party differences, they have more in common with each other than they may realize.
To thekorean –
You are so damn FUNNY! Your defense of the progressives is that they are not AS corrupt as the GNP? That’s like saying one woman is not “as pregnant” as another. Or that the Lusitania didn’t sink as deep as the Titanic. Or that the Sahara Desert isn’t as hot as Death Valley California! Come ON!! That’s your defense? SO when you leave the polling booth you can proudly say that your candidate didn’t accept as many bribes as his opponent?
Now THAT’s what’s laughable.
That point was in my head but I avoided making it, because I thought it might sound petty coming from me. So thanks for making that point.
I respectfully disagree. If you are a politician in Korea, money is practically thrown at you whether you want it or not. It takes extraordinary discipline to refuse them. Even Kim Geun-Tae, the guy who risked his life for democracy, admitted that he used around $245K of illegal campaign funds. (To KGT’s credit, he voluntarily came out with the truth.) If you have ordinary level of human temptation, you will be at least somewhat corrupt in Korean politics. That characterizes most of the corruption on the progressive side. That level of corruption is not excusable, but it is at the very least understandable.
On the other hand, GNP’s level of corruption requires a deliberate penchant for money. It is far beyond simply taking what is given to you; it is at the level where people go out and demand the bribes. And the fact that such demand often comes with an implicit threat makes that type of corruption so much worse. The former kind of corruption is more like a voluntary transaction; the latter, more like extortion.
Sure, sure. And a common shoplifter is just as bad as Bernard Madoff, jaywalking is just as culpable as vehicular homicide, and murdering one person is just as bad as the Holocaust. They all deserve exactly same level of legal punishment and moral blame. Sounds like a great idea.
Fucking moron.
And I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. You say that ‘[t]he former kind of corruption is more like a voluntary transaction; the latter, more like extortion’, but you cannot know what occurs in every case. With that statement, you excuse that actions of some people without knowing fully what has gone on in each case. You use a broad brush of understanding, applied along party lines, to gloss over the corruption of one group while highlighting the corruption of the other.
Incidentally, I don’t think it’s petty to compare amounts taken at different times. Your background is in law, mine is not; in terms of fair comparison, I see nothing wrong with the use of NPV here. After all, have you not already compared amounts taken by persons from different parties? Surely these did not happen at precisely the same time. If the difference is short-term, NPV isn’t really an issue, but it becomes relevant if we compare amounts that differ in time by decades.
I agree. But I was concerned with how it would sound, coming from me.
#25 and #26 – I’ve never heard such nonsense to excuse corruption and categorize it in such a black and white way. When the socialists commit a crime, it’s because they were tempted but their intentions are pure. But when the conservatives commit the crime, it’s because they are greedy bastards.
Do you even understand your own words? You are the one who is categorizing corruption in a black and white way. According to you, a person who received $1 in bribes and a person who received $1,000,000 in bribes are exactly the same.
Who received a one dollar bill as a bribe? How am I categorizing corruption when I’ve already said corruption is corruption? GNP receiving ten million dollars is corruption. Socialists receiving one million dollars is corruption, TK.
Wow, you seriously don’t understand your own words. I’m done with you.
#35 – you seriously have a bad habit of calling people names when they disagree with you, and going off in a huff when things aren’t going your way.
Is this how you act in court of law too?
To thekorean –
Bribery is bribery, whether it is 1 million won or 100 million won. It shouldn’t exist at ALL. So for you to defend the Progressives because they are “less corrupt” is indicative of a person who grew up in a culture where corruption is acceptable, as long as the frequency and dollar amounts aren’t particularly excessive. Excuse me for believing that corruption is inexcusable at any dollar amount.
A ship is sunk whether it is 100 meters below the surface of 4,000 meters below the surface. Would you say the Lusitania is “less sunk” than the Titanic?
Walking in the Sahara as opposed to Death Valley would mean very little to a man without water. They’re BOTH damn hot!! Would you say one or the other is less deadly to a stranded man without water.
A woman is pregnant whether she is one month along or 8 months along. Is one of these women less pregnant?
Now as far as your Holocaust/single murder comparison. Do you sentence the guy to 6 million death penalties for the Holocaust and only one death penalty for the single murder? Does one alternative make him more dead than the other?
Call me a “fucking moron” all you want if you need to get some testosterone out (if you are actually of Korean descent, I suspect that’s not a problem with you, though – more likely estrogen-induced PMS-like symptoms). But the point remains, you are defending the progressives because they are less corrupt and because with them it is “cultural”??? Cultural???? What a JOKE!
You are the one having trouble understanding your own words. No opposing lawyer I have encountered so far had that kind of problem.
Here, I will even do a recap for you. I argued that GNP was more corrupt than the progressives, because the level of bribes exchanged with GNP is overwhelmingly greater than the same with the progressives. You cannot disagree with the fact that GNP’s corruption is far greater. Yet you continue to insist that GNP and the progressives are equally corrupt, as if the 100-to-1 difference does not matter at all. To you, even $1 in bribes is enough to label someone “corrupt”. That is very much a “black and white” sort of classification, except that you accuse me of engaging in “black and white” classification. This is what I mean when I say you don’t even understand your own words. And that’s pretty retarded.
TK has the (much) better argument here. And as a conservative, let me remind the morons on this thread that moral equivalency used to be something conservatives sneered at. Now, it looks like the looney right has embraced it.
There is such a thing as false equivalents, and only TK has a firm grasp of it.
DLB
I’m certainly not going to argue that the progressives are equally as corrupt as the GNP—the GNP has elevated money politics to a veritable art form—but I will say that progressives can be so smugly self-righteous on this matter (I’m sure thekorean remembers the prime ministership of Lee Hae-chan) that when they get caught with their hand on the 돈봉투, it produces the same sort of exhilaration as Republicans getting caught screwing around on their wives.
To TK –
You wrote: “Here, I will even do a recap for you. I argued that GNP was more corrupt than the progressives, because the level of bribes exchanged with GNP is overwhelmingly greater than the same with the progressives. You cannot disagree with the fact that GNP’s corruption is far greater. Yet you continue to insist that GNP and the progressives are equally corrupt, as if the 100-to-1 difference does not matter at all. To you, even $1 in bribes is enough to label someone “corrupt”. That is very much a “black and white” sort of classification, except that you accuse me of engaging in “black and white” classification. This is what I mean when I say you don’t even understand your own words. And that’s pretty retarded.”
My dear misguided culturally challenged man,
If I take KRW 100,000 from you and that causes me to vote on an issue that I would not otherwise vote for, but my fellow assemblyman takes KRW 1 million, he is NOT more corrupt than I. He simply has more in his pocket for being just as corrupt as I. Corruption is not measured in dollar/won amounts. Nor is it measured merely in the number of incidents, or whether it is a cultural thing.
South Korea is a culturally corrupt society. Money changes hands EVERYwhere, even when it is a person’s job to do something. Yeah, Korean’s call it a “gift” or a “thank you” for your time, but it’s a bribe. Korean politicians are corrupt. How many Presidents has South Korea had? How many were either charged with or convicted of corruption based on actions while President? You make excuses for KDJ’s corruption and the purchase of the Sunshine Summit and subsequent Nobel Prize, but you crucify the corruption of GNP Presidents – what HYPOCRISY!! (another Korean cultural trait).
You have even by your language sort of categorized one as a kind of “good corruption” and the other as “bad corruption”. Laughable.
That’s like saying there are good terminal cancers and bad terminal cancers….Come ON!!
Jump off of the hypocrisy wagon before it falls over the cliff of total stupidity into the canyon of ridicule. You are looking dumber and dumber with each defense of your position.
wiess-whatever, my comment was for cm. Unlike you, he is worth talking to at length. As for you, I hope my shit list is comfortable, because that’s where you’re staying.
And Americans call it “lobbying.”
The GNP is so stupid that they included 김종인 (served 2 years in prison for receiving a bribe of 200 million won) on the Emergency Response Committee. This is 전여옥’s reaction:
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/01/05/2012010501080.html
전여옥 may be wacky but never boring… Even though my natural political leanings favor the GNP, it wouldn’t be such a bad thing for them to lose in the coming elections. This should (I hope) help purge the party of its worst members and corrupt practices, regroup and come up with reform-minded policies.
Well i’ll add my 2 cents in here: i think both sides are correct, conservatives are indeed more corrupted than progressives. This is mostly due though to the former being way more accustomed in business circles than the latter, and not to some supposedly better Progressive morality. After all conservatives are the pro-business side pretty much everywhere (or at least they’re the side big business trust the most) hence they have their hands where the big pot of jam is. Progressives are left to strive for scraps, which they are very eager to take.
To thekorean –
How does one measure “corruption”???
Here’s an analogy – Who is the best American Major League Baseball player in history?
Hmmm…one could argue Babe Ruth. After all, lifetime batting average of .342, 714 career homeruns, 2,873. And as a pitcher before he became a power hitter, he was 94–46, with a career 2.43 ERA. Not bad, huh? But what about Ty Cobb and his incredible .367 lifetime batting average, or his 4,171 hits and 892 stolen bases? But wait, Rickey Henderson had 3,055 career hits and 1,406 stolen bases. But wait, Pete Rose had 4,256 career hits!!
Who was the best? And that doesn’t even begin to address pitching.
SO, who is more corrupt? If you measure it your convenient way, you could say the GNP. But there are other ways, and to suggest that in one of the most bribe-saturated exporting nations (ranked #2 of 19 on the international bribe payers index, among other lists) that one party is less corrupt than another is kind of silly. And defending one party over another because it is “less” corrupt (using KRW amounts as the measure) is idiotic.
In the case of the GNP and the DP, you’re comparing Ted Williams to Mario Mendoza.
No questioning the degrees of corruption vary, but some factors partly explain that:
–The era of gigantic slush funds like Roh Tae-woo amassed and got busted for is, if not over, fading.
–Although the Korean state has a heavier hand in the running of the economy than elsewhere in the OECD, deregulation has gradually reduced the scope of government intervention and (in theory at least) the opportunity for graft.
–Big business generally will not throw the kind of money at left-wing politicians that it gives to business-friendly pols.
I think it’s more like comparing Gaylord Perry to Pete Rose.
This might be the most desperately retarded logic I have ever heard in my life. To extend that logic:
- United States has the highest rate of murder in all of developed world. So it is kind of silly to think that one American can be more murderous than another.
- United States has the highest incidence of obesity in all of developed world. So it is kind of silly to think that one American state can be fatter than another.
- United States has the lowest PISA math test scores in all of developed world. So it is kind of silly to think that one American student can be better at math than another.
Keep talking fella. Let’s see if you can top this stupidity.
GNP to progressives in corruption is like Michael Jordan to Kwame Brown in basketball.
Well, Perry cheated for the team’s benefit, while Rose cheated for his own, so I thought it was apt.
Ah, that’s another level that I did not think of. Very clever. Sorry, not much of a baseball fan here.
Am I missing something here?
Didn’t KDJ shovel $500 million accross the border in suitcases that he admitted to and potentially another $500 million that went missing? I guess that isn’t corruption if its for a progressive nobel prize….
Didn’t NMH jump off a cliff after investigators tripped over huge bags of money, watches, cars, apartments, libraries and homes just about every place they looked? I think progressives just haven’t had as many presidencies in Korea to rack up the body count.
If I recall it was Kim Young Sam who uncovered the GNP slush fund, and had two previous Presidents thrown in jail and sentenced to death. This would seem to be anti-corruption. Progressives aren’t cleaner they just haven’t had as much access in the past.
As for Pete Rose, he never cheated. He made illegal bets on his own team to win and then he lied about it. Cheating and Gambling are not necessarily linked, and certainly not in your example.
To theKorean: Kwame Brown just can’t catch a break–
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7421210/kwame-brown
To thekorean at #50:
You wrote – “Keep talking fella. Let’s see if you can top this stupidity.”
I must admit defeat, as I cannot possibly top your stupidity.
To thekorean –
Gaylord Perry to Pete Rose? You mean two guys whose statistics both warrant induction to the Baseball Hall of Fame? So, would one of them be MORE of a Hall of Famer than the other? You ARE right…I can’t top (or is it bottom) you in the stupidity department.
I will say one thing for you. You stick to your guns – and I guess from a Korean’s point of view, if you choose based on whom you believe is less corrupt, that’s one way to go – turning a blind eye to the corruption you admit exists, simply because you perceive others as MORE corrupt.
As I said above, I guess you’ll just have to excuse me for believing that corruption on any level is abhorrent. My bad.
To thekorean –
You know what is even more amusing than your position concerning corruption?
The fact that you even took time to write a little story about a GNP politician (a member of a party you distrust and despise) claiming that sometime in the past 4-5 years, an un-named candidate sent him KRW 3 million, that he gave it back, and that he never reported it until now. Oh, and neither of the possible candidates admits to having ever sent him the money. – and YOU BELIEVE IT!
You are Korea’s answer to James Carville….love it.
Do you think one reason he took the time to write a little “a little story about a GNP politician (a member of a party you distrust and despise) claiming that sometime in the past 4-5 years, an un-named candidate sent him KRW 3 million, that he gave it back, and that he never reported it until now” might be because it was big news today, with several newspapers even dedicating editorials to it?
And you don’t have to despise the GNP to either believe this story or think it speaks to a big problem:
http://news.donga.com/Politics/New/3/00/20120106/43121443/1
http://news.donga.com/Column/Sasul/3/040109/20120106/43120464/1
And wiessej, if I may make another humble suggestion, it’s that you consider that you might not be quite as well-informed as you seem to think you are, and that you readjust your rhetorical style accordingly.
JEEEEZ! He calls me a “fucking moron” and you scold me. OK, Robert…I will just not comment on this story anymore, because I clearly am uninformed, not having pored through the Pulitzer – level Korean newspapers on the subject. My bad.
Might I suggest that when you start off as you did in comment #27, and continue on with a bit of juvenile racism in #37 and #41, thekorean’s turn of phrase, while perhaps a bit crude, was perhaps not wholly inappropriate?
And yet it might still be amusing to see you praise, or even recommend the election of, one murderer over another murderer, simply because the first murderer’s crime was marginally less heinous. Why shouldn’t we aspire to having a non-murderous governing class?
I’m for Rick Santorum. That guy Santorum drowned in the bathtub was just a worthless vagrant, while Mitt Romney has no explanation for that duffel bag full of severed children’s heads.
Robert –
I would suggest to you that thekorean’s “turn of phrase” occurred prior to what you consider my prompting.
@#4, TK called cm’s post @#3 “Laughable”
@#15, TK said cm’s post @#13 “simply makes no sense”.
@#20, TK characherized cm’s comments @#16 as “too fucking funny.”
#27 was my first foray into the discussion. I attacked TK’s logic in defending a political party with the position that they are acceptable due to their apparent relatively lower level of corruption (based on a singular measuring stick of bribes).
@#29, in response, TK referred to me as a “fucking moron”
As for the comments you made suggesting I made “juvenile racist comments @#37 and #41 – I beg to disagree.
First, @#37, my comments were not made in reference to any “race”, but to one gender of one Asian ethnicity – an allusion to how so many young Korean men dress, act and look quite effeminate – certainly by western standards – and I attributed TK’s outburst to an emotionally uncontrollable hormonal imbalance. Come on, it’s simply true – the part about the effeminate appearance. Everyone who reads this will silently nod their heads on that one.
@#41, I made cultural references that are also factually true. TK himself stated @#15 that “Progressives’ corruption, what little there is, is a cultural thing.”
It is a cultural practice among Koreans to bring cash to meetings if you want something done, and failing to do so is a faux pas. These bribes hide under the guise of gifts. I am not the originator of the studies that label Korea #2 of the 19 top world exporters as far as bribery is concerned. It is an all too often accepted “business practice”, until the opposition party comes to power – then magically they are called bribes. Go figure.
I find Korea a fascinating country and culture, in spite of the corruption and hypocrisy exhibited in its politics, and in spite of those who rabidly support one political party, ignoring the very graft, greed, crime, etc. that they openly assault in the opposition – and THAT is the point I was making with TK. I do not know Mr. Go Seung-Deok from Adam, but that does not disqualify me from a working knowledge of political hypocrisy and politics, and it doesn’t dismiss my observations of the Korean press. I am relatively new to this blog, and I didn’t rub some people the right way from the start; however, I have lived in Korea for 7 of the past 10 years, so I am not totally ignorant of Korean politics and issues.
To Brendon @#62 –
Exactly my point – but watch out – lest ye be labeled a “fucking moron”.
Hmmm…or maybe there’s just a “shoot the messenger” attitude afoot.
To Brendon –
Perhaps you would agree that in American politics, voters tend to elect a candidate by choosing the lesser of the two political evils.
But in Korea, one could conclude that many Korean voters elect a candidate by choosing the lesser of the two CRIMINAL evils.
How many bona fide business meetings do you actually attend? Are you willing to consider the experiences of those of us who (i) actually speak and read the Korean language, and (i) live and/or work in the actual Republic of Korea, and not behind the walls of the Yongsan Army Garrison? I can’t believe you honestly believe that bullying and sneering at English-speaking Korean military officers is in any way a representative experience.
I can’t believe that you honestly believe reading translated articles in the Korea Times is in any way representative of the content in the myriad publications in the vernacular press. If you can’t glean anything from a broadcast of the nightly news, how can you honestly imagine you know what’s going on?
It’s ridiculous. And this is why you are ridiculed. Please, I beseech you, dial it down a notch or 10.
Brendon –
You wrote: “I can’t believe you honestly believe that bullying and sneering at English-speaking Korean military officers is in any way a representative experience.”
I am glad you can’t believe it, because you’re just being silly, anyway
You wrote: “I can’t believe that you honestly believe reading translated articles in the Korea Times is in any way representative of the content in the myriad publications in the vernacular press.”
I am glad you can’t believe that as well, as there is no basis for such a comment. I certainly don’t believe it. And thank God, because I shy away from the Korean Times (English AND Korean – I can only assume the Korean/hangul? version is as worthless as the English one – honestly, my once a week high school newspaper was more stimulating).
You wrote: “If you can’t glean anything from a broadcast of the nightly news, how can you honestly imagine you know what’s going on?” You use the word if, as if it represents some truth in the comment it precedes. It does not in this case. I glean plenty from the local news broadcasts, as well as from various publications that are conveniently translated in my line of work – so in many ways, I am quite informed, despite my lack of “facility” in “hangul”. But thanks for the concern, despite its irrelevance to the discussion above.
Tossing aside some of the the expected barbed comments and weeding through all the sarcasm you presented in #66 (retorts omitted here), you’re not seriously suggesting that bribery and corruption aren’t prevalent at all levels in Korean society…are you? I mean, despite all the events occurring over the past several years, even after the convictions of the two former Korean Presidents, and the investigations of no fewer than two others. You can bet the if the Progressives win the Blue House in the next election, soon to be former President Lee will also be vigorously investigated, and the “gifts” he received will magically be transformed into bribery charges by some progressive prosecutor somewhere. Wanna take that bet?
Corruption is so prevalent still that it is an expected evil among so so many Koreans, who simply accept it as a way of life here. It’s common knowledge that parents give “gifts” to teachers to influence their children’s grades. It’s common knowledge that a significant number of actresses and other female entertainers are forced to engage in sexual trysts to further their careers – a stoically accepted form of corruption. More Presidents than not in the past half a dozen have been investigated and/or convicted of bribery-related charges. The head of Samsung was recently convicted, right? 10% of the players in one of Korea’s professional soccer leagues last year were indicted for fixing soccer games. The former KNP Chief was investigated for receipt of bribes for construction site food service contracts. The list goes on and on.
Must I possess a facility in the Korean language to see this? I think not. But ya know? When I don’t really let your silly comments affect me (I never really did before anyway), you can be quite funny with minimal effort.
Have a good weekend.
Hamilton (#54), what you say about Rose is true, yet at the same, not the full story. John Dowd, who investigated Rose, believed that Rose bet against the Reds during the time he served as the team’s manager, yet was finally unable to prove it before he had to complete his report. Given that Rose adamantly denied the allegation of betting in general, did not always bet on the team as he years later maintained, and pleaded guilty to tax evasion, I think there might be fire where ther’s smoke. Still, you’re right – sorry for being too quick to type it up. I guess ‘Shoeless’ Joe Jackson would have been a better choice.
Wiessej, it’s not necessarily that you’re wrong or unintelligent. I think that you’re bright and that you can hit the nail on the head. But you overreach and you overreact. The defense that others do the same may sometimes be correct, but to use that defense is to concede defeat.
My advice — for what it’s worth — is to not take this watering hole so seriously. Some of us engage in trollish behavior. My ironic posts might border on that sort of thing even though I try to stay on the respectable side of the bridge that divides the goats gruff from the troll. With a more relaxed attitude, you can accomplish better results here.
Personally, I think that you add a perspective to this menagerie of beasts that gather round the Marmot’s Hole, and while we may be no better than animals, let’s at least strive to act more evolved. Self-consciousness is a trait of higher species. We should be as dignified as elephants, dolphins, and orangutans — not without humor at our ridiculous appearance here, but also without lowering ourselves too much.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Given that so-called conservatives (and their predecessors) have dominated Korea’s political offices for the past 60 years, it’s hardly remarkable that the absolute scale of their corruption outweighs that of the so-called progressives.
Relatively-speaking – say corruption as a ratio of misappropriated funds, etc. to some combination of number of offices/time in office – who knows, especially considering the billion dollar exercise in extortion/embezzlement/tax evasion celebrated in some quarters as ‘sunshine’ and the apparently lesser but still significant episodes of graft that drove the Great Pretender to suicide and other “progressives” from office.
In any case, more fundamental is the appropriateness of evaluating corruption on the basis of the scale of misappropriation. Of course, the diversion of funds for private or otherwise constitutionally unauthorized use is one of the conventional elements of political corruption. But the real gravamen of the problem is the violation of the officeholders’ fiduciary duty to the public and the resulting weakening of public trust and destruction of the bases of political order. On that score, which is the one that really counts in assessing corruption, the sheer scale of graft in relative, or even absolute, terms is insignificant, and there is no difference between the “conservatives” and “progressives”.
I’ll say.
“Progressives” here should really find new clothes to wear, ’cause it just doesn’t fit. But then, finding a new one that’s well-tailored to the unique ideological jumble won’t be cut-and-dried. The least they can do, though, is to take a long, hard look in the mirror, and see how out-of-form it is now.
I picked up “한국 진보세력 연구” (A Study of Progressives in Korea) by 남시욱 at Kyobo last year. I thought I’d learn a thing or two about them. I still have yet to read it. I think I’ll go for selective reading before this year ends. Now, there goes my new year’s resolution. (chuckles)
To cm: ” I’m done with you.”
“wiess-whatever, my comment was for cm. Unlike you, he is worth talking to at length.”
Should make up your mind or risk looking like an intellectual coward. From what I can gather, you’re generally done with anyone who strongly opposes your views, but you like to pretend that ain’t the case – except for the next idiot who disagrees with you. They’re all so stupid! Why can’t they be as reasonable as you???
To Jeffery –
You wrote: “My advice — for what it’s worth — is to not take this watering hole so seriously. ”
I am beside myself. Why do you think I do? Is it because I occasionally place some words in ALL CAPS to stress them? Is it because I am at time a bit wordy? Please rest easy with the knowledge that I don’t lose sleep worrying about what people write on here. I say that with no stress involved.
Have a nice weekend..
My apologies, then. Have a good weekend as well.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
To thekorean @#42 –
You wrote: “wiess-whatever, my comment was for cm. Unlike you, he is worth talking to at length. As for you, I hope my shit list is comfortable, because that’s where you’re staying.”
A few points concerning this:
1. Uh, is it supposed to be some kind of insult for you to refer to me as “wiess-whatever”? I mean, for real, it takes more to type that than simply to type “wiessej” or just cut and paste “wiessej”. Just wondering.
2. If I am not worth talking to, why did you feel the need to write a lengthy response @#50 before apparently calling it quits for now?
3. Is this “shit list” of yours some sort of place that involves voodoo magic? I ask because I am just not really feeling any negative effects of being placed on this “shit list”. Is this a “talk to the hand” kind of thing? ‘Cuz you told me a few weeks ago I was on your shit list – I’m sorry, I just am not grasping the significance of being on your “shit list”.
4. I don’t really expect a response – I bump into people like you a lot who have rapid one-dimensional views of politics….the kind of people who profess (I find it hard to believe they actually believe the crap they spout) that THEIR particular party is the best thing since sliced bread, that their shit doesn’t stink – or that it barely does, and that their goals and methods are the only sensible ones…..while at the same time professing that the opposition part is made up of criminals and other miscreants bent on the total destruction of the fabric of a free society. That’s pretty much why I referred to you as korea’s version of a James Carville.
OK, back to the shit list, I guess….
To SPERWER @#70 – awesome summary (in my opinion). You said it better than I was saying it.
Marginally less heinous? I think not. Again, 100-to-1 disparity in the amount of bribes (before NPV-ing it) is hardly “marginal.”
You mean, you would prefer anarchy over having a governing class with less taint?
I cannot understand how you go from your premise to your conclusion. But I cannot understand a lot of things about you at any rate.
You gather wrong.
TK, the so called “Progressives” are just overgrown spoiled brats. They should be thankful for what they got. If they had been in charge of the country from day one, Korea would still be a basket case.
Catching up with this thread this morning (California time), it’s truly remarkable that the GNP apologists keep digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole when they would NEVER make the same arguments in any other (unfavorable) context.
Image arguing that since NK has human rights abuses, and SK has had human rights abuses, there is no real difference between North and South Korea.
Or imagine looking over Transparency International’s comparative corruption charts and arguing that since Zimbabwe is on the list, and so is South Korea, that there is no difference between Zimbabwe and South Korea.
Any PoliSci undergrad should be able to see what TK is getting at. It speaks volumes that certain MHers here don’t. Or can’t.
Instead, if the GNP apologists were smarter, or at least more sophisticated, they would concede the obvious and argue that, yes, the GNP is corrupt; yes, it’s more corrupt than the progressive camp; and yes, its corruption is deep-rooted and institutional and is something that needs to be dealt with, but the party’s still right on the issues, and here’s why….
By defending the indefensible, the “there’s no difference” crowd simply (continues) to lose credibility, and can be ignored as unserious and, frankly, just not very bright.
DLB
DLB –
It’s not an issue of the GNP either being or not being corrupt. And there are certainly no GNP apologists here. What is corrupt is the culture of bribery and dishonesty that is rampant in South Korea regardless of which party is in power.
TK presents the progressives as acceptable because they are “less corrupt”. By some arbitrary means he has defined “corruption” as equating to money.
He splits hairs in describing that there is apparently a good kind of bribe and a bad kind, and that, although the progressives are corrupt, there’s is a corruption that does not extend beyond the normal cultural kind. It’s preposterous, and he doesn’t even seem to realize it.
I don’t really care which party is in power, because each one will simply take on the role that the other previously held…one impeding what the administration wants to accomplish, for the sake of impeding – perhaps even tossing CS grenades in the National Assembly chamber, while the other promises transparencey and responsible spending and a change to the status quo, only to flip flop once the oath of office and the inaugural address are complete.
Just watch and see.
Hear, hear!
First, props to Mr. Barch for defending the proverbial underdog, like when he stood up for me.
That said, one seeing not much difference between the two parties in terms of, say, corruption does not mean s/he is a GNP apologist.
Let me leave it at that for the time being until I can offer noteworthy commentary (and refutation, if any) on the “progressive” camp after doing enough homework, with which I’ll be done God knows when.
W.
At the risk of taking this thread in a different direction, are you really arguing that all corruption is equal? That would be interesting, but novel, since many developmental economists (and PoliSci types) would argue that there is a huge difference between, say, graft and corruption, and that in low-trust cultures like Korea, graft can actually play a bonding role between economic actors, say businessman and bureaucrat, especially where other institutional bonds are weak or undeveloped.
This goes beyond the GNP vs. progressive camp dichotomy on this thread, but since, unlike some here, I take you and your views seriously, so feel free to weigh in.
DLB
DLB –
I would not argue that all types of corruption are measured equally, just as there are differentiations between levels of crime (ie., jaywalking vs, capital murder) Crime is not crime, and corruption is not corruption.
However, to suggest that one political party is more corrupt than another based on the alleged number of bribery incidents attributed to one party as opposed to the other (TK says it’s a 100:1 ratio – clearly a made up statistic to support his argument) is simply not quantifiable. And to limit it to bribery alone is also quite one-dimensional.
As I said several times before, bribery and political corruption among elected/appointed government officials is a subculture in South Korea, and regardless of who is in power, unless it is dealt with as the disease that it is, it will likely simply be a baton handed off from one incumbent to another.
Being a progressive, and a rabid one at that, TK has made excuses for progressive corruption, while crucifying the GNP’s.
Unless you change the bathwater, no matter who takes a bath, they’re gonna come out dirty.
DLBarch, no one here is apologizing for GNP corruption. What I’m saying is that the claim that the “Progressives” are less corrupt, so they have the moral upper hand is laughable. Their dealings may have involved less financial dealings than the GNP, but not because they are inherently less corrupt. It’s only because they had far less time in power. Their corruption cases may involve only millions of dollars instead of hundreds of millions, but what about their other forms of corruption involving ties to the leftist radicals and North Korea itself? Their collusive non-financial corruptions are just as bad, if not even worse, in my books. The GNP are no saints for sure, but the alternative is even worse. Just because Fidel Castro was less corrupt than the Cuban administration that it replaced, does that make the Cuban Communists a better choice for the Cuban people? That’s what TK is essentially advocating here, and that’s why he’s being ridiculed.
W. (and CM),
I have no doubt that TK’s politics are not quite my politics, but on the relative corruption of the GNP vs. progressive camps, he is spot on accurate. Whether that makes the progressive camp a “better” choice is an entirely different matter, but saying there is no difference between the two is just simply, objectively wrong.
And at least we have moved beyond comparing (the sliding scale of) corruption to (the binary state of) pregnancy. That, on MH, is progress!
Finally, I will add that TK is hand’s down one of the most perceptive commentators on the state of Korean politics on this blog, and whether one agrees with him or not, there is nothing about him that I would describe as “rabid.”
But I suspect deep down you already know that.
Go Bears,
DLB
Do you really have to get down to this level? What are you going to do next, go around and slap progressive politicians like the crazy woman in prison?
I have no idea how you can keep talking up this nonsense. 10 years of KDJ and RMH are not “far less time” than the 15 years of CDH, RTW and KYS. But if you must insist on controlling for time, go ahead. Take any 5-year period of progressive administration versus any 5-year period of conservative administration, and find me a comparison where the progressive administration even comes remotely close to the conservative administration. What’s stopping you? You know how to read Korean and you can search on Naver.
“THEY’RE COMMUNISTS!! THEY’RE COMMUNISTS!!!” Is that seriously all you conservatives have? Do you ever wonder why GNP is getting pummeled in the polls right now?
“Any PoliSci undergrad should be able to see what TK is getting at. It speaks volumes that certain MHers here don’t. Or can’t.”
I usually respect DLB’s take on things, but here all I see is strawman after strawman. Nobody here is making the reductio ad absurdum arguments that TheKorean is ascribing to his critics. Nearly everybody takes as a given that the pro-business party of generals and businessmen and bureaucrats that formed and ran Korea Inc for all but 10 of its 60 years will far outstrip liberals in the amount of dodgy proceeds. But the liberals did indeed seem to be making up for lost time once they got their turn at the trough. Same shit, different/smaller pile.
Sperwer nails the issue quite well, and I wouldn’t call wiessej the underdog here. The only message I ultimately take away from TK here is “conservatives bad; progressives good.” Extreme partisanship is fine, but it clouds analysis.
My exhortation applies the same to this passage. Take any 5-year period of progressive administration versus any 5-year period of conservative administration, and find me a comparison where the progressive administration even comes remotely close to the conservative administration in terms of corruption.
“Do you ever wonder why GNP is getting pummeled in the polls right now?”
I don’t have to wonder, I know why. The left leaning politicians and media have done a fine job of convincing the public that it was LMB who let in Mad Cow from the US, that it’s LMB’s fault for the global economic recession, that Chonan was sunk by South Korea, that relationship with North Korea is bad because he got rid of Sunshine Policy, on and on, everything is his fault, including the fact that he looks like a rat.
TK has, shrewdly, thrown down a pretty clear challenge. Since it’s Friday here in the States and I’m well ahead on my billing for the week, I’ll be hitting the “refresh” button over the next few hours to see who, if any, of the “there’s no difference” crowd have the intellectual cojones to take him up on it.
By the way, if anyone needs help getting started, I’d personally lead with DJ’s bought and paid for Nobel, but that might be too easy.
Good luck,
DLB
BTW, if anyone;’s interested, the Asan Institute has some great, regular monthly polling on Korean politics. Their latest:
http://www.asaninst.org/eng/publications/board_read.php?num=565&page=1&type=report&keyfield=&key=
Consider it lunch-time reading.
DLB
In other words, you are saying the GNP did nothing wrong, but the COMMUNISTS are deluding the masses. “Oh, those poor, stupid, democratic constituents? Don’t they know they don’t deserve the freedom? If only they knew better, they would always vote for the GNP!” Give me a break.
“TK has, shrewdly, thrown down a pretty clear challenge.”
And it’s already been answered. Just because Roh Moo Hyun’s illegal funds only amounts to $6 million (only the part was known), does not excuse him of being a liar. He consistently lied through his teeth knowingly, and he destroyed evidences that could have been used to discover all the shady dealings of the Uri Party. He said it himself, “you should no longer depend on me to speak up against corruption, I’m no longer fit to do so”.
What about Kim Dae Jung? He stole and embezzled millions of dollars from the South Korean coffers to give them to North Korea without prior consultations with the government and the people. Then he had the nerve to accept the Nobel Peace prize. Not to mention all the shady deals done by his sons. I’m sure he didn’t know anything about those.
TK keeps saying the amount of bribery by the progressives is only $1, in an attempt to minimize the culpability. Corruption is corruption, stealing millions of dollars is a serious offense, we’re not talking about few bucks here.
No it has not. Where is the conservative side of the equation?
Why does a TK post on Korean politics essentially always boil down to cm ranting and raving about the supposed communist threat? I swear to god, the only reason these posts reach the number comments that they do is because of the inevitable back and forth between cm and TK.
Unless he can step up his game, I could really do without it. After all, there’s better shit out there in that vein than anything cm’s offering up at the moment.
On this thread, TK is running circles around his dissenters and not even having to break a sweat to do it.
C’mon, CM, W, et al. TK has issued a simple, even-a-moron-can-understand “any five year period” comparative challenge.
Time to step up. (I’m pulling for you in spirit, but I’m pretty sure you’re gonna lose.)
DLB
cm wrote:
“The left leaning politicians and media have done a fine job of convincing the public that it was LMB who let in Mad Cow from the US, that it’s LMB’s fault for the global economic recession, that Chonan was sunk by South Korea, that relationship with North Korea is bad because he got rid of Sunshine Policy, on and on, everything is his fault, including the fact that he looks like a rat.”
And somehow TK interprets it as meaning:
“In other words, you are saying the GNP did nothing wrong, but the COMMUNISTS are deluding the masses. “Oh, those poor, stupid, democratic constituents? Don’t they know they don’t deserve the freedom? If only they knew better, they would always vote for the GNP!” Give me a break.”
Is TK reading the same thing I am reading, or did he respond to something else???
To DLB –
You wrote: “On this thread, TK is running circles around his dissenters and not even having to break a sweat to do it.
C’mon, CM, W, et al. TK has issued a simple, even-a-moron-can-understand “any five year period” comparative challenge.
Time to step up. (I’m pulling for you in spirit, but I’m pretty sure you’re gonna lose.)”
I hear marijuana is legal in some places in California, but I didn’t know crack was…cuz that appears to be what youa re smoking.
DLB
In other words, you can’t produce. Considering that it’s you, this isn’t a surprise.
“Why does a TK post on Korean politics essentially always boil down to cm ranting and raving about the supposed communist threat? I swear to god, the only reason these posts reach the number comments that they do is because of the inevitable back and forth between cm and TK.”
Because the threat is real? So Charles and TK, you guys deny the cozy relationship that some of these leftist parties have with North Korea?
“C’mon, CM, W, et al. TK has issued a simple, even-a-moron-can-understand “any five year period” comparative challenge.”
OK you two, if you want to play that moral equivalence game, then how about answering why is it that the corruption for GNP usually centers around slush funds that enrich the party’s election standings, while the progressive corruptions usually center around private personal gains?
Sure, the record of GNP corruption is nothing to be proud of (as admitted numerously), but I would think that the ladder type of corruption of personal gains, is far far worse type of corruption.
Once again I repeat, no-one has a higher moral authority in corruption, because corruption is corruption. But if you insist on going down this road, you should answer my question.
I thought everyone would get the proverbial underdog here right. Seems not.
I get the feeling that Mr. Barch is pulling for him just for the sake of argument, ’cause I can’t put a finger on what unites the two… is it opposition to what the GNP stands for?
Anyway, carry on and let it all hang out, gentlemen, and let me be a spectator on this match.
CT, what’s your take? A curious mind wants to know.
Have a good one, y’all.
1) It’s not. Hasn’t been for quite some time.
2) No. But just because there’s a “cozy relationship” doesn’t mean it constitutes a mortal, existentialist threat to 대한민국. Calm down.
W.,
“Crack”? Really?
There’s a better, more nuanced direction to take this, and what I would argue — IF I were a GNP apologist – is that, yes, the GNP is deeply, profoundly corrupt, but unlike the corruption of Marcos, or Mugabe, or Arafat, or Pap and Baby Doc, or, well you get the idea, corruption in Korea — including and especially by the GNP — has been harnessed to promote rather than retard economic development. In that sense, it’s more of a cost of doing business thing than an economic drain on the country.
This is the graft vs. corruption distinction I alluded to earlier, and in a traditionally low-trust culture like Korea, one could argue (and one could disagree) that corruption has — and does — in fact promote economic development. In fact, a GNP apologist might do well to say that if a few white envelops under the table is the cost of, let’s be honest, pretty fucking impressive economic growth over FIVE DECADES, then who’s to say it’s necessarily a bad thing?
And the zinger? If the voters want less corruption, then let them also have the economic sluggishness of the Roh years.
Of course, I would not really make that argument, but if I were a GNP apologist, then I would.
Now, if you don’t mind, W., I’ll be getting back to my crack pipe….
DLB
Is there a greater-than-zero number of leftists in SK who revere the North Korean dictatorship? Sure. But is that number enough such that the communist threat is “real”? That’s the Grade-A bullshit that you and your fellow conservatives have been peddling for the last 30 years, in order to justify oppressing, torturing and murdering your own people.
No, I gave you the challenge first. If you can’t meet that challenge, admit it. Admit the fact that there has never been any meaningful period in the history of the Republic of Korea, in which the progressive administrations gave and received more bribes than the conservative administrations. Then we will talk.
“2) No. But just because there’s a “cozy relationship” doesn’t mean it constitutes a mortal, existentialist threat to 대한민국. Calm down.”
Who says there’s a mortal existentialist threat? Their threat is not existentialist. Their real threat is f*cking up the country (South Korea) and giving a helping hand to North Korea so that they can continue to take advantage of the political division in South Korea.
I agree that it’s a problem. But not one worth ranting and raving about in the manner that you do. This is all manageable stuff in my eyes. Like I said before: CALM DOWN.
“No, I gave you the challenge first. If you can’t meet that challenge, admit it. Admit the fact that there has never been any meaningful period in the history of the Republic of Korea, in which the progressive administrations gave and received more bribes than the conservative administrations. Then we will talk.”
I’ve already answered you numerously on this. Yes, GNP corruption involved more known bribes. But it’s been pointed out already, just because Roh was good at hiding his corruption, and his cohorts halted numerous attempts at investigations of his dealings, does not necessarily mean he was not corrupt because we may never know the true scale of the corruption of the URI party. Again, much of the GNP corruption centers around election funds and improper campaign funds, while most of the KNOWN corruptions by the Progressives are for their own personal gains – graft.
If you want to play the moral equivalence game, then I say the Leftists are far more corrupt even though they may be involved with less money.
“Like I said before: CALM DOWN.”
Believe me, I am calm. I just don’t know why you think I’m ranting and raving. It’s not just me who has been posting comments, many others have too.
That’s not admitting what I posed. Admit that at any given time, GNP corruption involved more bribes. In other words, drop the BS argument that GNP’s larger scale of corruption is only because they were in power longer.
If you think so…
I don’t think you’re ranting and raving. I KNOW you’re ranting and raving.
No shit. I know. You’re just the most insufferable one.
“I don’t think you’re ranting and raving. I KNOW you’re ranting and raving.”
Yes ranting and raving to you, because you don’t agree with the message. Tell me where I’m ranting and raving.
This is a blog, which invites comments. I’m merely responding to TK’s own thread. Does he not want challenges to his opinions? Or does he only invite comments that agrees with him so that everyone can nod their heads in agreement? I would prefer to think it’s the first. If you can’t stand my posts, then do what I used to do with WJK, just skip them and don’t reply. Simple.
It’s called just ignore the poster.
I propose that whoever can’t meaningfully rebut TK’s “any five year” challenge has to watch the entire first season of “Portlandia.”
Cruel and inhumane? You betcha!
DLB
No. There’s plenty I disagree with here but don’t recognize and ranting and raving.
Yes. At first you were. Then-per usual-you denigrated into a McCarthyite boob.
I could. It’s just more fun to remind you about what you are.
#113, Tilly, why not stick to the discussion of this thread, instead of resorting to your usual personal attacks which has nothing to do with the subject at hand? Can we do that?
You first.
To Charles Tilley @100 –
You wrote: “In other words, you can’t produce. Considering that it’s you, this isn’t a surprise.”
Wrong, Charles. In the event you hadn’t noticed, I had already “produced” more than a dozen comments on this thread. My remarks to the gentleman were written at 3:10 in the morning Korea time, so, there are no “other words” except those that had preceded the gentleman’s comments since about mid-day. At 3:10 am Korea time (my time), I decided that it was past time to hit the sack.
But I notice since #96, you posted 7 times, and not a single one had anythign really to do with the topic. You spent your effort simply trying to bait the person you were posting to. But, considering that it’s you, this isn’t a surprise. Good evening, Charles.
All of which did nothing to answer TK’s simple little challenge. “Bravo.”
No. He smuggled in his typical bit of stupidity and I called him out for it. Hope you have a good morning. Maybe it’ll be the inspiration you need to answer TK’s challenge.
“No. He smuggled in his typical bit of stupidity and I called him out for it. ”
- CT.
Mad Cow protests/riots, the violent protests regarding the Pyongtek US base move, violent riots to get rid of the McArthur statue, and other numerous violent anti American riots. A significant number of South Koreans hold those leftist views and they are certainly not a small number. Let’s call it a large minority, and they have been successful in influencing the entire nation and some of the government policies – to the detriment of South Korea, not to mention aiding North Korea so that they can fund their nuclear weapons project. What’s so stupid about reminding someone about what leftists in S.Korea stands for?
That’s the Grade-A bullshit that you and your fellow conservatives have been peddling for the last 30 years, in order to justify oppressing, torturing and murdering your own people.” – TK
Talk about ranting and raving… jeessshhhh.. This is year 2012, can you stop living in the past? Were you even in Korea at that time to say what it was like to live in Korea at that time, to make that kind of a blanket statement?
Yes. Can you?
#119 the Jinbo movement is very much a part of today’s “progressive” parties, Charles Tilly. Why do you think they are in the past?
Right now, you are holding up the same knife that stabbed many in the past. In that case, remembering the past is a great way of figuring out what you’re going to do next.
You mean, was I in Korea to see my mother receiving a phone call that my uncles were in prison for protesting? Was I in Korea to accompany my mother to the prison where they were held? Was I in Korea to see their beaten, broken faces after a night of “questioning”? Was I in Korea to look after my newborn cousins, while my aunts had to run their households while their husbands were in prison for years, for doing the right thing? Do I know the smell of tear gas, the mixed smell of sweat and dried blood, the exhausted smiles on the faces of the students and union workers who managed to get away from the riot police?
Yes, I was in Korea when it all happened, and I know what it was like. Don’t you ever question that again.
ùùDLB i didn’t know you had such a sadistic streak in you ! It’s always the mildest looking ones you have to fear the most
“You mean, was I in Korea to see my mother receiving a phone call that my uncles were in prison for protesting?”
How was he protesting? Was he throwing rocks at the police, making molitov cocktails, or did he get caught up wrong place at the wrong time? I really have to question what really happened, considering that nothing in South Korea is just black and white.
I hope everybody concerned realizes that Portlandia is satire.
cm –
I have seen quite a few protests myself. Once, I saw the KNPs holding their ground, not retaliating at all, while a bunch of protesters with long sticks were beating the hell out of the KNP shields. TK probably saw the blood and sweat and etc. from uncles with overly zealous means of protesting, like the protests I saw, just as his overzealous support of the progressives shines through here.
It’s quite clear that in this society, policemen are not highly regarded. I was in the subway on one occasion when a middle-aged man was clearly upset that a younger man in his twenties did not offer him the proper level of respect. He had the younger guy by the throat. When a policeman came to try to very politely separate them, the older buy pushed the policeman down and over one of the benches, and continued his stranglehold on the younger guy. I wonder if that older guy was TK’s uncle.
cm&TK: honestly this fierce arguing over past (and should i dare to say not particularly relevant nowadays) political events and this left-right tribalisation are very common in the welfare trash cornucopia of Southern European countries…please don’t make Korea a place like that, you as a people can do and deserve much better. I grew up in a place marred with political extremism and now we got nothing but unemployment, desperation, crumbling infrastructures and junkie killers shooting Chinese families for chump change.
Korea has been a democracy for a long time and it faces other more real issues than some imaginary fascist/communist threat
To Charles @#117 -
I recommend you re-read the posts above with the mindset of someone actually interested in the comments and not in badgering people. TK’s diatribes have been responded to in significant detail. You failing to grasp that is not at all surprising. Seriously, Charles, if it’s beyond you, just say so. I’ll help you if you need it.
@wheeze-jay:
Keep dodging.
cm and wiessej, as yet another nephew of progressive uncles who were beaten numerous times by the riot police (and in one case, by the “detectives” during “questioning”), I just want to express my sincere relief that people like you aren’t even the noticeable minority of the future voting blocks of Korea, the 20~40s.
Btw, McCarthyism is so 1950s. Kinda matches the NK armored divisions, now that I think about it.
Now might be a good time for all of us to take a breath, and pause for a moment before hitting that ‘submit’ button.
“Korea has been a democracy for a long time and it faces other more real issues than some imaginary fascist/communist threat”
YangachiBastardo, I’ve already mentioned this, so please don’t fall for TK and CT’s cries of McCarthyism. It’s not the Communist threat that’s endangering South Korea. It’s the threat of dangerous Nationalism that the left parties are peddling which is far dangerous. Just look how they’ve played the issues of FTA with the US, look at the way they tried to muddy the issue of North Korean sub sinking a South Korean navy – blaming the South Korean government. Look at the way they’ve played anti-Americanism in the mistaken belief that this will create a new pan-Korean national unity – and the irrepairable damage that it did to the relationship between US and Korea. Economic Socialism is just a cap in their feather, or a last straw for me. And it’s unfortunately true that what BumfromKorea said above, that a big chunk of the 20 – 40′s voting age buy into all the their Utopian ideals. So they want to go back to Korea 2002 again, what more can I say?
cm: i tend to agree with you overall, particularly about the risk of Korea goin’ down the Euro wacko road (together with the real estate bubble and the shaping of the future relationship with China the real issues of the country imho).
I also wanted to say that all&all i truly appreciate your diatribes with TK: you 2, as venomous as sometimes you seem to be, don’t sink to personal insult level, not to mention i always enjoy learning about different points of view on Korean society (provided by Koreans).
The only thing that sometimes really surprise me is the level of politicisation of the country, kinda unusual for an Asian nation
To charles @#117 –
I guess you do need help. I responded to TK ad nauseum in several posts before you poked your troll head into this particular thread. Not dodging whatsoever, but you’re not particularly inspiring. I seriously doubt you could inspire a man with a sever case of diahrrea to take a crap. Done with you here. When you want to actually contribute somethign, lemme know.
Keep repeating it. Maybe it’ll come true.
If it was over that pathetic mug of yours, I have no doubt that I would.
So cm wants to go back to the Korea of say 1972 again. What more can I say?
Here’s something from 유시민 that’ll warm the chestnuts of certain commentators.
Here’s the hilarious thing. All these people on this thread huff and puff about how progressives were just as bad as conservatives. Yet they fail to present this most obvious supporting material to buttress their argument. And it is not as if this material was hard to find — it was plastered on the nation’s largest newspapers!
Basically, we are dealing with the crowd that gets all their news from Colbert Report. 수준 낮아서 같이 못 놀아주겠네.
Be nice, TK
Wow. Like, just wow.
“Wow. Like just wow.”
I have seen Koreans who were “peacefully protesting”, when suddenly there were physical altercations between them and the police. The one I specifically referenced above ended up with multiple arrests and injuries. What I found a bit odd was how “peaceful” protesters just happened to bring long-ass beating sticks with them to peacefully protest. So, yeah…wow.
…oh…and just like any protest when protesters get injured and cry police brutality, (sometiems totally justified), this one got back page coverage after videotaped evidence proved the police acted with incredible restraint while shielding themselves, until it reached a point where they had to open their own can of whoop-ass to stop the “overzealous” protesters. Wow…like just wow.
Ordinarily, I’d consider your statement in reference to thekorean’s uncle offensive in the extreme. Feeling generous as I am this morning, though, I’ll assume you didn’t intend to be offensive, and that your statement was simply a reflection of your profound ignorance of contemporary Korean history.
Robert –
Feel free to assume. On the other hand I KNOW what I personally witnessed (I was physically within close proximity of the actual event). On one occasion a middle-aged Korean man pushing a policeman to the ground over a subway bench (and the policeman exhibiting incredible restraint in not hauling him off to jail). On another occasion, a slew of protesters beating the crap out of some KNP’s protecting themselves with shields, who only broke up the melee after an extended period of time (even after one policeman was escorted to the back of the altercation with a profusely bleeding laceration to the forehead).
thekorean implied (or maybe you simply inferred) that because his uncles may have been protesting during a period of “contemporary Korean history” it’s not possible they were actually in the wrong. You know, peaceful protest is great, when neither the police nor the protestors are instigating violence. But I wonder, are you blind to incidents in very recent years when “peaceful protesters” have virtually destroyed KNP buses, throwing objects and rocking or entirely upturning them, while initiating assaults against the police? Choose your issue – they were violent concerning American beef a few years ago; in 2002, ex-military protesters ignited improvised flamethrowers directly against the police. I remember it from the news, but here’s a video. I have to wonder, why do peaceful protesters bring long metal poles and gas tanks to a gathering??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2oBSVW6JGk&feature=related
Maybe thekorean’s uncles were in that kind of crowd. Do you know otherwise?
So, seven of the last ten years you’ve lived here, eh?
your point, Robert?
I Wonder. Did TK’s uncle(s) receive their injuries before or AFTER throwing their Molotov cocktails at KNP riot control police?
@Robert
I think you’re gonna have to spoon-feed him your point.
bumfromkorea, the man’s a consultant and a former officer in the US Army. I shouldn’t have to spoon-feed him.
ㅋㅋㅋ
just let him continue,
Wiessej: does your current job involve you giving advice/analysis on Korean political issues to US military officials?
What do you think?
I think somewhere around 1993-95 the conscripted riot police started taking more abuse than the protestors. Don’t forget in 1996 at Yonsei they tossed the geodes from the Geology Dept.’s museum floor and killed one of the hapless conscripts below. Then under DJ they took away the pepper powder (not actually tear gas) and it’s only gotten worse. Our friend Bug documented a lot of abuse of the conscripts during the anti-beef/anti-LMB lunacy of 2008.
Where TK goes wrong is in assuming the GNP of 2012 is the same party that beat up his uncles. It isn’t remotely close. He looks at Korean politics through a prism that was valid in maybe 1987 at the latest. This country has moved on while emigrants keep their misconceptions.
To Wedge @150 –
Oh my GOD!! What political incorrectness!!! Blasphemy!! How NON-Progressive!! How dare you speak such truth so openly!!
#159 – I remember in 1989, when students who were calling for the government of Roh Taewoo to be brought down, took a university building in Pusan, holding several hostages who were blind folded and their hands tied behind their backs. Several hours of negotiation failed, and the riot cops decided to take the building by storm. What ensued was a disaster, as the students took loads of gasoline, threw them all over inside the building, and lighted the fire. Six Korean riot cops, all young draftees, died in the fire. It was cold blooded mass murder, if you asked me. Even back in those days, the violence was a blur of a line, as both sides (riot police and protesters) were engaged in it.
Wiessej?
I’ll go one further. Yes, there were severe abuses in the 70′s and 80′s, and even to the present to a lesser degree. But it is a fallacy to say that every demonstration for every reason was a public uprising against autocratic/ dictatorial rule. Not every Korean rioter from those periods can claim a badge of patriotism and/or peaceful dissent. There were in fact lots of criminals back then. There were also lots of protesters who instigated violent reaction from the police.
I could very easily make a blanket statement that I know of a story of a police officer who made a routine traffic stop and ended up shooting and killing the motorist. Now, if I left out the key details, one would logically assume that the police officer should spend the rest of his life in prison.
However, if I point out that upon doing a background check, the police officer discovered that the motorist was wanted on four separate charges in two states and had his driving privileges revoked for life three years earlier, and that when the police officer attempted to peacefully arrest the motorist, the motorist became violent, and almost gained control of the officer’s weapon in the struggle, forcing the officer to shoot him in self-defense – well, then…what a different conclusion, huh?
To say that the police beat my uncle, and leaving it at that – sorry, doesn’t elicit sympathy when one can see the types of protests that occur now and have occurred in Korea for the past decades.
As far as spoon-feeding…whatever. As far as what I do in my current job…double whatever. Pick on Wedge for a while – he’s pretty much stating my position. I wonder if his job involves giving advice/analysis on Korean political issues to US military officials.
Wiessej: I know Wedge off-blog, so there’s no need for me to ask that. I am asking you because I am genuinely curious.
hamel –
To answer your question in an honest way: Yes, in a very indirect way, but it is more detailed than that. Should you ever feel inclined to meet for a beer, I would happlily go into more detail.
hamel — Why don’t you follow through on your original, ill-advised offer to get together with wiessej for a beer? I’m sure you’ll find out all you wanted to know and then some.
Good idea, Brendon…you come along, too, huh?
..oh….and don’t forget to bring all your double entendres…what would you be without them?
…Awww…come on, my fellow Midwestern US buddy…it could be fun. You responded within a minute of my post to hamel…why so slow? It’s not a fear of confrontation outide of a controlled environment, is it? Off to the rack for me….g’night.
Actually, I was commenting at the very same time as you were. Great minds think alike, and all that. As for the invite, three’s a total crowd.
Robert, that is not even the top 10 most offensive statement hurled against me and my family regarding our struggle to achieve democracy in Korea. I can’t believe you are offended by it — people might think you are a communist or something.
How? Is it run by different people? Does it have a different goal? Does it employ a different tactic? You repeat this claim about how GNP is a born-again vanguard for democracy which has nothing to do with the dictatorship of the past. It would be nice if you could back up your claim once in a while.
Sorry if i intrude in a thread that has already reached tsunami of shit proportions, but as a person coming from a society that used to be a dictatorship and with family ties to that kind of ideology (gramp was an SS officer in what is now Croatian territory), i think i can relate to both sides of the discussion…
As morally questionable as it may be both Germany and Italy (let alone Spain) kept lots of people with an embarassing past in power positions after
their transition to democracy, that didn’t prevent the aforementioned transition from being succesful
Definitely YES…different global backdrop, different times, totally different level of development. Many conservative political execs in Korea may not be in their heart the truest lovers of democracy, still the chance they might revert to the old school tactics of the 1970′s-1980′s era is zilch
Does anybody see the GNP sabotaging the democratic process ? Do they send the 깡패 to brutalise opposition members ? Do they suffocate freedom of expression ? By any human rights watch organisation Korea is ranked as the most democratic nation in Asia, on par with Japan
wiessej: i’m not one of your haters and you have a fair point about the leftist opposition not being exactly saints themselves, btw i completely agree with Wedge. Said so, assuming things about other people family members is a bit shitty, sorry
I don’t know if the GNP is a “born-again vanguard for democracy.” But what I do know is that despite its ties to the dictatorships of the past, it doesn’t represent the threat to South Korean democracy that some believe it be. No, I happen to think that what was achieved in 1987 is here to stay.
There’s simply too much that has changed about South Korea-and for that matter the world-for those accomplishments to be dialed back by any single individual or party. There’s a structural reality that both conservatives and progressives are going to have to live within and chart a course from there.
디도스?
To TK @#162 -
I wonder if it ranks up there with being called a “F-ing moron” for no reason.
The fact that you’re wondering such a thing, wiessej, says a lot.
PS: While calling you an “F-ing moron” might be rude and/or inappropriate, I’m sure TK will disagree with the “no reason” part.
The current GNP was voted in by the Korean people in 2008. But if we accept what TK is basically saying, then they got in power by torturing, killing, and rigging the votes. All international treaties between Korea and other countries are null and void because the LMB’s regime is a dictatorship. Korea-USFK alliance is null and void, Korea-USFK SOFA is null and void, EU-FTA is null and void, US-FTA is null and void – all the signatory treaties are null and void because it doesn’t truly represent the voice of the Korean people. How ridiculous does that sound?
Sounds very ridiculous. As does trying to draw false equivalencies between the GNP and the DP in regards to corruption.
고승덕 fingers 박희태.
Thanks, Robert, for your input.
I wonder if cm or other commentators here moonlight at the editorial desk of the Donga.
it only appears to be a false equivalence if one buys in to the sadly misguided view that the relevant standard of judgment is the relative scale of graft rather than the damage to the integrity of the political process that results from corruption, in respect of which there is no significant difference to be drawn
Sperwer: did you tap that out on an iphone?
Yes?
“Sounds very ridiculous. As does trying to draw false equivalencies between the GNP and the DP in regards to corruption.”
Lots of things sound very ridiculous, depending on which side of the political aisle one is obviously standing on, and what one is willing to ignore or completely dismiss as negligible.
As I have said before – it’s not one party over another that is more corrupt. Sure, you can bunch together a bunch of statistics, or pound your chest more loudly than the next guy, or hurl clever insults, whether as moderator or as your neighborhood contributing “propaganda columnist” if you think that makes your point more valid.
It is the political culture in general that is. When the GNP is in power, their corruption is more likely to bare its ugly head because after all, why bribe a Progressive, who has little influence to actually sway the majority to make things happen?
But when the Progressives are in power (just keep an eye on this new Mayor of Seoul over the next couple of years), the tides will be turned, and have been in the past (a la KDJ’s purchase of the Nobel, and the scandal that drove a recent President to suicide – although TK will likely say it was a case of a “saint” martyring himself for some great good).
Pretty much all of the major corporations in Korea (i.e., Samsung, Hyundai, Tonga, Daewoo, LG, etc.) have paid significant amounts of bribe money or illegal campaign contributions – and I mean SIGNIFICANT) to whichever candidate or officeholder they believe will push favor their way. Even Chung Ju Jong (Hyundai’s founder) admitted it. Hanbo’s founder admitted to giving Kim Young Sam 60 billion won before the 1992 election.
Since President Park took power 40+ years ago, the overall level of corruption slightly increased until the early 1990s, and it has been slightly decreasing since the late 1990s. But it is still there, regardless of whose party is in power.
Until Korea actually transitions from a country with a judiciary that won’t send high level executives to jail for their corruption, nothing will change. It’s a joke, and has been for years, when a court finds an executive like Hyundai chairman Chong Mong Koo “too important to serve time.” The guys important enough to pay corruption money to a sitting President to totally fuck up public trust, but not serve time.
So, blame the GNP or the the so-called Progressives as being more corrupt than the other. It only really depend on who is in office to bribe favors out of.
Wiessej: Obviously, you know a lot. And you care about these issues. Great. I think what would help you in your time at this blog is:
1) show some intellectual humility from time to time
2) rather than appeal to special knowledge that others don’t have access to, or personal experience/anecdotal evidence, refer to external sources that we can check
3) ignore insults and don’t engage in back and forths about homosexuality, levels of sex hormones in the bodies of other commenters, and/or penis size
4) resist the urge to send “and another thing…” comments one after the other in the space of only a few minutes.
To hamel –
Thanks. Your perspectives are apparently genuine, so I will try to keep them in mind.
Just wondering, though. Should I also apply the following techniques? They seem to be accepted methods that don’t receive much criticism:
5) Use terms like “fucking moron” from time to time to accentuate a point.
6) Jump in with the occasional one-liner insult or double entendre.
No, you shouldn’t. Instead, you should reflect on why they seem to be directed at you so much.
“I wonder if cm or other commentators here moonlight at the editorial desk of the Donga.”
Nice of you to point out to a link that shows plenty of examples of corruption by the progressives. Now are you saying those corruption cases are untrue?
Say what you will about Korean corruption (I don’t care which political camp), but I’m going to put my limb out (and duck), and say it’s nowhere near the corruption and graft you see between bankers in Wall Street, politicians in Washington, and the Economists/professors in the American higher institution of learning.
You will not see in Korea, the same magnitude of graft, greed, lack of punishment for white collar frauds, and astonishing lack of public accountability of the leaders, as we are witnessing about America today.
Compare that $3000 gift donation from Korea, with the Wall Street payouts to the tune of tens of billions of dollars that the bankers paid themselves and call it ‘work well done bonus’… well… let’s just say it’s obscene.
I think you missed the point as to why I linked to the article. Not surprising.
No. Nobody was.
“I think you missed the point as to why I linked to the article”
Not really. I think your point was I sound like the right wing nutcases like the Jo-Joong-Dong newspapers.
To Robert –
You’re absolutely correct, of course. I will reflect on why such terms seem to be directed at me so much, keeping in mind, especially, those people who do. Great idea.
Wiessej: what, specifically, have I said to you that would cast aspersions on what I advised you above in #177?
To Robert/TK, I think it’s great that TK provides a different point of view on the Hole, and it obviously stimulates discussion. But, for what’s it worth, I think the bloggers should hold themselves to a higher level of decorum in the commenting section for their own articles, and thus TK should try to hold back a bit on the “fucking moron” stuff. (Although I admittedly think it would be somewhat hilarious if TK were to respond by calling me a fucking moron). At the same time, I think the visitors should lay off the personal attacks on guest bloggers and show them a bit of respect. I could be way off here, but I was wondering if Yuna and a few others aren’t blogging as much because they got sick of some of the shit directed at them.
I just got surprised by an envelope full of cash. It’s fun.
To hamel – Gol dang it….I guess I am just a loose cannon…gonna have to watch the sarcasm. I don’t have a license to practice it here. But I sure am glad Brendon got the envelope I sent.
to gmm @#185 – Blasphemy!!!!
Usually I like good shit, so I’d rather have shit with a point than comments of team-building exercise any time.
I am trying to find good, boring, but relevant stories, and also to *stick to fluff pieces* (as someone once remarked on my post) at the same time..isn’t so easy.
Oh goodie!! So there is some hope for you yet.
The sadly misguided view is that the relative damage to integrity of the political process has nothing to do with the relative scale of corruption.
If we are talking the difference between petty amounts, then perhaps, but there is no moral difference between 1milion dollars and 5 million dollars.
In which case both are seriously corrupt, just the former isn’t as proficient at it,
and as the filipinos would have it, if he can’t look after himself, then how can he look after the country, hence gnp historic domination…
Is there also no moral difference between $1 million and $100 million?
Remember, the $6 million that RMH was accused of receiving came from a single company, and $6 million buys all of 2.5 nice apartments in Gangnam. To accumulate his $1 billion slush fund (in 1980s KRW, no less!) Chun Doo-Hwan had to suck out from the entire economy. $1 billion represents more than 1% of entire Korea’s GDP for the better part of the 1980s. And that’s just one guy.
@9
You now appear to be making a more or less strictly practical argument, to the effect that “progressives” are a better choice because they are less likely to be involved in corruption. This approach at least has the virtue of not constituting a textbook example of ignoratio elenchi, like your previous approach. Unfortunately, it is equally unavailing. On the available evidence, the only demonstrable connection is between time in office and corruption. There is no convincing evidentiary basis for thinking that “conservatives” or “progressives” will be more or less corrupt simply as a function of their identity as one or the other.
@ 191
Politics and philosophy do have a way of making people argue about some strange things–is it worse to steal $5 million compared to $1 million? Which gang of criminals/political party is more corrupt?
@#193 –
He wrote: “Is there also no moral difference between $1 million and $100 million?” Yes, there is no moral difference between the two. Both are wrong. Both exemplify a corrupt person or system.
“Both are wrong” and “there is no moral difference” are two extremely different statements. The fact that you deny that difference is either very comical, or very scary.
I am merely showing that no matter what the theoretical approach to which you subscribe, the 100-to-1 difference cannot be wished away. It is called arguing in the alternative — you might remember it from your lawyer days.
If that is true, answer my standing challenge. Find me any five-year period of progressive administration in which the level of corruption was even remotely close to the same in any five-year period of conservative administration. I know you have the wherewithal to research the answer for the challenge.
@#198 – You’re lost.
@199
You have now left the waters of ignoratio elenchi for the depths of red herring.
No one is wishing away the quantitative difference between the scale of conservative and progressive political malfeasance. Indeed, everyone – me included – has acknowledged it. Your “challenge” is therefore simply a red herring by means of which you unsuccessfully attempt to divert attention from the fundamentally mistaken assumptions of your position.
What I am saying is:
1. that quantitative difference is irrelevant – impertinent in fact – to the question whether one is more or less moral than the other. Political malfeasance is immoral. It doesn’t become more or less immoral because there is more or less of it. To think otherwise is to make a rather simple-minded category error. (Although that doesn’t necessarily entail that, as a practical matter, or even a moral matter, the punishment for such malfeasance shouldn’t be proportionate to its scale.)
2. As a strictly practical matter, one nevertheless could adduce a respectable argument to the effect that progressives are less likely to engage in such malfeasance than conservatives. However, as already noted, the evidence doesn’t support that claim, but rather the conclusion that if and when they assume office the progressives are just as likely to engage in political malfeasance. The fact that historically progressive corruption doesn’t compare quantitatively with that of conservatives is neither here nor there. You certainly have adduced no persuasive basis on which to conclude that conservatives qua conservatives are more likely to engage in it.
” You certainly have adduced no persuasive basis on which to conclude that conservatives qua conservatives are more likely to engage in it.”
Other, of course, than your emotionally overwrought ideological prejudices.
To Sperwer @#201 BLASPHEMY!!!! Uh-oh, despite your very lucid and pinpoint explanation about how “levels” of corruption are not measured in dollars of Korean won , you are now likely to be put on TK’s “shit list” and receive the “fucking moron” badge of rejection. Cease and desist with your logic assaults, lest you be berated mercilessly.
Sperwer, first I gotta say that you have become a lot more agreeable lately. Maybe it’s the seasons, but I appreciate it nonetheless.
To continue:
When you say: “On the available evidence, the only demonstrable connection is between time in office and corruption[,]” I am not sure if you have acknowledged it. Rather, it sounds as if you are making the tired argument that essentially says: “Progressives have a smaller scale of corruption only because they were in power for less time.” To that, my challenge is to control for time when comparing corruption, and you apparently recognize that you cannot meet that challenge.
This paragraph should be nicknamed “cognitive dissonance,” since the later part clearly refutes the former. If there is no such thing as “more” or “less” immorality, from what basis does “more” or “less” legal or moral punishment flow?
Let’s get back to the overarching point first. Recall that not even for a second have I advocated that progressives are not corrupt. I am merely noting (and others on this thread have agreed) that progressives are less corrupt, but you are desperately trying to draw the argument back to the point that I never asserted, by arguing that the relevant measure is a level of damage caused to the faith in the political system.
I easily refuted your argument by noting that the level of damage caused to the faith in the political system is proportionate to the scale of corruption. You could not attack that point. So now, you are retreated to your cognitively dissonant point that even though corruption by conservatives is vastly, vastly greater than the same by progressives, conservatives are no more likely to engage in corruption.
Needless to say that this is a ridiculous position. As I explained above (@193), the scale of corruption (particularly as the scale becomes exponentially larger) is a proxy for the frequency of incidences of corruption. It only takes one company to pay a graft of $1 million. It takes pretty much every company in the entire country to pay a graft of $1 billion. This is the difference between “graft” and “corruption” that DL Barch has explained.
But because you are being nice (by your standards anyway,) I will humor you and tweak my challenge a bit: find me any five-year period of progressive administrations in which the number of incidences of corruption and bribes are even in the same range as the same for conservative administrations. If you want to measure for “likelihood” of corruption, this test should be able to get at the likelihood.
I’m going to ignore the plethora of chaff in your post and focus on the two main issues, which have to do with the nature and logic of moral and practical discourse, respectively, and in respect of the latter what sort of practical judgments are warranted by the avialable evidence in the case at hand.
1. You claim that there is an inconsistency between my assertion that morality is never a case of less or more, and my acknowledgment of the appropriateness of differentially punishing people on a proportionate basis.
Look at it this way. Murderer A kills one person. Murder B kills a dozen. Are B and B’s actions more immoral than A’s. I submit that they clearly are not. To think otherwise would be, among other things, implicitly to diminish the immorality of A’s crime. B nevertheless justifiably can be punished more severely than A because he has committed not one but several immoral acts; each such act is equally immoral but the perpetrators are differentially culpable for the purposes of punishment (because of the number of immoral acts each has committed).
2. Now A and B, after being the guests of Bubba for awhile, come before the parole board. Should A or B, or both, or neither, be granted parole; is there any basis for distinguishing between them on the basis of the number of murders they have committed? (Let’s also assume arguendo that B’s murders were not all committed at once but over some period of time). On the basis of the available information, I don’t think one can make any reasonably principled decision – certainly not one that involves any difference in the treatment of A and B. This is not a case where one defendant is charged with homicide and the other with a moving violation.
Similarly, notwithstanding the fact that more corruption has taken place on the watch of the so-called conservatives and its predecessors in interest than on that of the so-called progressives, the nature and scale of some of the individual acts of malfeasance perpetrated by each is the same (and just as murder is, terminally one might say, destructive of the social fabric) and destructive of the political fabric. In other words, it’s not the relative aggregate scale of corruption that is at stake here (which your claiming to have “noted” as being proportionate to the loss of political faith hardly constitutes an argument, let alone a refutation), but the nature and scale of the individual acts of corruption. On the latter score, I don’t see much to differentiate between Korea’s conservatives and progressives (even if the former because of their time in power have committed more such offenses).
If you want to look for more fundamental causes, I think the answer is in the propensity towards certain kinds of political corruption related to Korea’s the socio-political constitution of Korea and the inertial force of their historical traditions and antecedents, which more or less insure that korean politicians, whether conservative or progressive, are going to misbehave in certain more or less predictable ways. Anyway, it’s not in the notion that one or the other of the contenders in the contest to stick their snouts in the trough is more or less immoral than the other.
He saves that for actual fucking morons.
To Brendon @#206 – Come on, Brendon….climb out of your hole of childishness. Be a grown-up this year, ok? I have to admit..you sure make the most of 11 syllables.
To Sperwer @#205 – Perfect….not that thekorean is going to agree…but oh well.
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