One day ahead of the big funeral, North Korea is upping its verbal assaults on the South, warning Seoul that it will pay a huge price by “sticking a knife in the chest of the people.” And by “sticking a knife in the chest of the people,” it means barring South Koreans (except for the parties of the former First Lady and the Hyundai chairwoman) from traveling to the North to pay their respects to the late Kim Jong-il and banning South Korean leftist groups from setting up shrines to Kim in the South.
Police in Seoul have prevented one civic group from setting up an altar near City Hall and removed another altar set up by students at Seoul National University. Personally, I could do without the police telling radical lefties what to do, but alas, the National Security Law says differently.
Interestingly, the North Korean media ran nine stories related to the South Korean condolence debate, noting calls by some South Korean media and political groups to send an official delegation to Pyongyang.
{ 39 comments… read them below or add one }
I know I am a Westerner and all, and I will never fully understand the Korean psyche, as it has developed over several thosand years. Nor will I fully understand how Koreans feel deep inside about each other, North and South.
But even with that said, I am beside myself to understand how ANY South Korean can set up a shrine, or seriously mourn the death of a man whose own personal actions resulted in the deaths of so many South Koreans, and whose own personal actions have perpetuated the gulags in North Korea that imprison whole families for the most miniscule slights of a totalitarian regime.
While I can understand South Koreans being sympathetic tot he loss of their leader, however misguided their devotion may have been, I would like to have an English speaking Seoul National University student in front of me who had anything to do with erecting a shrine to KJI so I can tell him to his face what a fucking stupid uninformed retard he must be. I swear – find one, tell me where and when to meet him.
“Interestingly, the North Korean media ran nine stories related to the South Korean condolence debate, noting calls by some South Korean media and political groups to send an official delegation to Pyongyang.”
Well, the vast majority of South Koreans despises Kim Jong-il. If anything, the debate (and it’s not really that big of an issue) is about freedom of expression, not Kim Jong-il.
Actually, the condolence question IS a big debate, although the focus has been less on freedom of expression and more on improving inter-Korean relations.
The Dong-A Ilbo, though, ran a piece explaining why anybody calling for alters to be set up for KJI should have their heads examined:
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?bicode=080000&biid=2011122783198
#1 – don’t worry, I’m a Korean myself and — I don’t even understand how any South Korean can be sympathetic to Kim Jong Il’s death. All I can do is give it a sigh…
And #3 – it’s just fucking deplorable that this is even a debate, let alone a big one. And don’t you know, you’re quoting from the Cho-Joong-Dong? They’re just right wing media propaganda, according to the “Progressives”.
It was only a year ago when South Korea was under attack. It’s already all been forgotten, especially by our “Progressive” friends who god forbid, may come into power again next year.
“North Korea says South Korea should not ban civic groups and its people from visiting the North to pay their respects to the late Kim Jong Il. Pyongyang adds that Seoul also should pay tribute to the deceased in a proper way.”
South Korean government really should think outside the box. Let the South Koreans who want to pay tributes to Kim Jong Il, be on their way. But don’t let them back into South Korea for 6 months. Let them stay there and see for themselves what North Korea is really like – if they can even stand it for one day. I’m sure there are other imaginative excuses they can come up with to teach them a stiff lesson.
cm i tend to aggree with you…sad thing is freedom is mostly wasted on the free
cm: Well, I think the argument is that the LMB administration is not fully using the opportunity provided by Kim’s death to improve inter-Korean relations, especially when it seems China is strengthening its hand in the North.
That’s communist talk. Don’t you know that when it comes to North Korea, you are only supposed to say a lot and do nothing?
Well, I don’t agree with it—after all the shit North Korea has pulled since LMB took office, I find it incredibly generous that LMB let even DJ’s widow and the Hyundai chairwoman go—and even the Kyunghyang today said North Korea was being rude. I’m just repeating the argument. And after a decade of Sunshine, I’m actually OK with “doing nothing.”
You know I’m kidding
As in, doing nothing even after dozens of our soldiers get killed?
I would also prefer LMB doing nothing, but apparently the administration is trying to do something, which is far more worrisome. Seriously, has LMB administration done ANYTHING differently from Sunshine?
Of course LMB has done things differently. That’s why North Korea is so mad at him. Can you explain that, TK?
I think it’s absolutely deplorable and utter unconscionable that the same people have never visited the memorial for the victims of Chonan and Yeonpyondo. Yet these traitors are trying to erect shrines of KJI everywhere and visiting the murderer responsible for the deaths of countless South Koreans. How do you think the families of those dead South Korean military men feel just about now? This is the reward that they get for serving their country? This is just simply outrageous, stop defending these scum, TK.
How? Please, tell me. Did the aid to North Korea stop? Did Gaeseong close? Did South Korea respond forcefully after being attacked?
I am serious. Please tell me, because I am dying to know. I am completely disillusioned of Sunshine, but I cannot see how LMB is engaging in anything but an unprincipled version of Sunshine.
I know paranoia runs in the conservative blood, but please, stop being paranoid. I am not defending those who set up KJI shrines.
I’m dying to know, too, because everytime I pick up the Hani or Kyunghyang, they make it seem like LMB’s hardline policies have pushed the Korean Peninsula to the edge of war. Clearly THEY think LMB is doing something different, as do the North Koreans, although what, exactly, LMB has been doing except showing almost Nobel Prize-deserving restraint, I don’t really know.
Sorry, but that made me laugh. What LMB is showing is not restraint — it is cowardice. This administration talks and talks, then puckers up when the rubber meets the road.
Perhaps. But you know what they say—one progressive’s cowardice is another progressive’s irresponsible hardline warmongering.
#12 – I’ll tell you what LMB has done TK. He has done nothing for North Korea. YES NOTHING for North Korea. That’s certainly far better than what the Sunshine Policy was doing. Choking off NK aid, shutting down Hyundai Asan’s North Korean tours, stopping the engagement with the terrorists, strengthening the alliance with the US, and overall, ignoring the NK has done far better to speed up the North Korean collapse and hopefully the eventual end of the suffering for the NK people. It’s the old motto, stop feeding the troll.
“I am not defending those who set up KJI shrines.”
But most of them are your fellow “Progressives”, TK. You certainly are not condemning them. Do you have any explanation for their thinking?
Well played
Right. NK aid is so choked off that South Korea sent aid to North Korea only a day after there was an exchange of artillery fire. Give me a break, will you?
Like the way the Gwangju paratroopers in 1981 are your fellow “conservatives”?
Crap, make that 1980.
Look, I’m not denying that there were some piecemeal aid at trying to relieve flood victims. Giving them Choco pies, flours, and children’s shoes, limits what their military can do with that aid. As you can see below, North Korean leadership just doesn’t like those types of aid, as they refused that same very aid because what they wanted was cement to build Kim Jong Il monuments, and grains to feed their troops.
http://news.sbs.co.kr/section_news/news_read.jsp?news_id=N1000987123
That aid may have gone through in the end, but it’s still a far far cry from your Sunshine Policy which gave North Korea billions in aid, without asking questions or asking something back from NK in return.
my comment in moderation.
I can’t spring comments from moderation in this thread, but I can see them. So:
How many times do I have to say I disclaimed Sunshine Policy before you stop calling it “your Sunshine Policy”? Look, I said I disclaimed Sunshine Policy in this very thread!
To thekorean –
I’ll tell you what LMB is doing that Kim Dae Jung and Roh Moo Hyun didn’t do – or, rather what he’s NOT doing that they DID do.
He’s not filtering money to North Korea to get an audience that will garner him an undeserved Nobel Peace Prize.
He’s not getting down on his knees to suck them off every time they whine.
As far as Kaesong and Gumgang, what is happening at both of those places is barely a trickle compared to what it was under the previous two presidents.
The “aid” (medical AND food) you talk about is also barely a trickle as well in comparison to the previous two administrations.
The 6-Party Talks were a joke under the previous two administrations, always resulting in North Korea acting like a baby holding its breath until its face was blue to get some sort of concession. LMB’s continued reluctance to rejoin the 6-Party Talks has not allowed North Korea a forum for bellicose theatrics.
The previous two administrations gained NOTHING materially…nothing in the form of reconciliation (and it was a DECADE of Sunshine Policy). Sure, there were family reunions – but think of it – only a totalitarian government would even hold such events hostage. Sure, there was that 2000 inter-Korean summit – and we know how that happened and what resulted – again, nothing.
when you keep providing sunshine to an invasive choking weed, it will continue to grow and choke. Take away the sunshine and the nutrients, and it will die…it will wither and die…eventually.
Thanks to President Kim and Roh for ushering in a nuclear North Korea.
“South Korean government really should think outside the box. Let the South Koreans who want to pay tributes to Kim Jong Il, be on their way. But don’t let them back into South Korea for 6 months. Let them stay there and see for themselves what North Korea is really like – if they can even stand it for one day. I’m sure there are other imaginative excuses they can come up with to teach them a stiff lesson.”
My thoughts exactly. I was about to type something almost the same.
I read this all the time in the 조중동’s of the world as well as here at the MH. And I agree that intuitively this could be a plausible explanation for developments in the past decade. However, like the statement above, it’s just a blanket assertion. Once you actually think about it, there’s just too much missing from it to be anywhere near cogent- for the time being. I have yet to read something credible that shows-even in somewhat detailed fashion-how we went from the Sunshine policy to a nuclear armed DPRK.
Now, maybe somebody here is privy to classified information that the rest of aren’t and can thus continue to make assertions like the above knowing full well that they’ll be vindicated in due time. But until information like that gets released to the public, I’m going to bet and say that this and this are better explanations for why the world is confronting a nuclear North Korea.
#3,
Condemning a fringe minority does not constitute much of a debate, does it?
If by “fringe minority,” you mean the country’s largest opposition party (not to mention minority opposition parties) and most of the progressive press, than yes, it isn’t much of a debate.
Just to be clear, we’re talking about sending an official South Korean condolence delegation to Pyongyang and widening the scale of non-official delegations, not so much the moonbats wanting to set up altars near City Hall and on SNU’s campus.
#27,
Really? Then tell me why you provided a link to that Dong-A article?
Great, another typo.
Well, because it’s part of North Korea’s beef, for starters. It also includes the issue of official condolences, particularly at the end. The first piece linked, too, deals with both the official delegation question (as well as the moonbats).
Hi a long time reader, first time commenter.
Hindsight is wonderful thing isn’t it?
First, my attitude toward the “Sunshine policy” is that it turned out to be a chamberlaininan appeasement policy that prolonged the suffering of NK folks and it did not necessarily give us “peace in our time”.
What it gave was delaying of inevitable Chinese influence of NK. I ponder if the bilateral economic cooperation (or appeasement) was still maintained, SK may by now, would have few more strings (or cheaper labor) which she could pull or at least have some HUMINT assets on the ground so she would not look so silly after finding out demise of the ‘Dear Leader” through media releases.
As for some SKoreans suggesting dispatching official delegation with large tear glands (or bouquets), I think it has less to do with any sympathy for the grieving Northern brethrens but more to do with removing excuse for the hardliners (including the newly anointed king) doing something crazy again. (It is said that Jung Un has orchestrated both the Yun Pyung and CheonAn incidents, just to prove to the generals that he’s got guts to kill some capitalist soldiers and civies).
SKoreans now know that throwing carrots at NK doesn’t work. (NK prefer Chinese carrots anyway… no strings attached and no existential dilemmas) and frustrated LMB governments apparent unwillingness (or cowardice?) to crack some whip. May be they are just being pragmatic to adopt the appeasement line again but this time a type of appeasement suitable for a rabid dog.
It is easy to be hawkish your loved ones are not living in a potential “sea of fire”.
To Khanguru –
The Sunshine Policy was probably EXACTLY as you stated. It was “Chamberlainian” – perfect term – appeasement.
However, anyone who believes the decisions to shell PY-do and to torpedo the Cheonan actually originated with KJU is naive. Oh, sure, it’s possible he gave the nod to some General, or that he made the final call – but only after it was clear that Daddy was delegating it. It’s more likely he wasn’t even involved, but that it was reported after the fact in the state media that he was – a way to “strengthen” his image among North Koreans as the heir apparent. remember, this is the same state media that claims the snow that has fallen on the day of KJI’s funeral is heaven mourning.
As far as the “sea of fire” thing. Pigs are more likely to fly, elephants more likely to swim the English channel, and the Cubs more likely to win the World Series than Pyeongyang turning seoul into a sea of fire.
To Charles @#25 –
I wrote: “Thanks to President Kim and Roh for ushering in a nuclear North Korea.”
I agree – too simplistic. Probably more accurate to say something like,
“Thanks to Presidents Kim and Roh for naively helping the facilitation of a nuclear North Korea.”
I agree there are multiple factors. No doubt international exchanges with countries like the Soviet Union/Russia, China, Pakistan, etc. were the practical reasons. But my point was that the ass-kissing attitude toward KJI that the administrations immediately prior to LMB were guilty of were like putting fresh oil in the engine of a car pointed in the direction of nuclear development.
#13 & #14 – LMB is definitely more deserving of the Nobel Peace Price than BHO.
To kuiwon –
Barak Obama was in office less than TWO WEEKS when he was nominated. In those two weeks, he had done NOTHING. I can’t think of anyone LESS deserving. His award by the Nobel committee makes the award a joke. By the way, Teddy Roosevelt, the first American to win the same prize, didn’t deserve it either.
You couldn’t have a person less deserving of the Peace Prize than Barack Obama at the time he was awarded the Prize two weeks into his administration. His record since then, as the US President who arrogates to himself the legal right to assassinate US citizens, in addition to the five wars, is less than inspiring.
An argument can be made that Lee Myung-Bak, by letting the North Koreans sink the ROKS Cheonan and shell Paengnyong-do without military response, is the real peacemaker.
Hey, Brendon, don’t be so quick to award that prize! I maintain that I am better deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize than anyone else, for I’ve done nothing at all in the world! What could be more peaceful than that? Why, you’d have to be nonexistent to better qualify, but that’s like being dead or a mathematician, so you wouldn’t qualify anyway.
So . . . where do I go to pick mine up?
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Jeffery, you were Time magazine’s “Man of the Year” in 2006. I think there’s a point where piling up the awards is just greedy. Spread the wealth around, man!
Barack Obama won the piece prize for simply not being George Bush. I’m not Bush either, where’s my prize?
Kim Dae Jung buying the piece prize was outrageously sly.
The people who want to set up altars to that murdering bastard KJI are sick beyond words. I think they should let them, and the police shouldn’t intervene, the police should also not intervene if any loyal south Korean citizens feel inspired to bloody the traitors noses’s when they come across an altar.
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