Over at GI Korea, commenter “Chickenhead” makes what, IMHO, is a very good observation, namely, even if GI crime stats are low, some of the behavior exhibited by American servicemen is just plain irritating. Read the entire comment at GI’s blog, but I’ll post part of it below:
When GIs come to visit me in Real Korea, I have to explain that they can’t do the stuff that, even now, is considered semi-acceptable in the over-restricted villes where the Koreans understand the GI mind… talking to normal Korean girls like bargirls, staring and laughing at poor/funny-looking/Songtan Sally-style women on the street, ten guys crowding into a shop with “Yo, ajashi!”, “SPEAK ENGLISH? NO? NO ENGLISH? Damn.”, constant swearing which Real Koreans also understand but don’t grasp the context, goofing around and standing on public benches or other very non-acceptable Korean behavior, etc., etc., etc.
One or two guys is not really a problem… except for hitting on the girls as if they were as easy as bargirls and mistaking their friendliness for interest… but 4 guys sometimes gets a bit rowdy after a few drinks in an atmosphere where Big Mama USFK ain’t around to watch.
For drunken fights and sexual assaults, GIs would certainly be minority perpetrators… but they would be the most obvious and most remembered… and have the largest impact on the Alliance.
Speaking of GI crimes, a computer engineer with 8th Army was arrested after allegedly causing an accident in Seocho-gu while driving under the influence. The hits just keep on coming…
{ 117 comments… read them below or add one }
About US soldiers in Europe during WWII:
“Oversexed, overpaid and over here.”
–Tommy Trinder
Might also have added “overfed”.
Sperwer #2, right, there are different versions of the same old line…seems that foreigners and soldiers are two hated groups, yet necessary in many ways…
I do not know the background of the people who post here, but it appears to me by the things they write that many are westerners from English speaking countries who themselves hold some animosity toward America or Americans. Perhaps that animosity s justified, perhaps it is spawned by a sense of jealousy, or perhaps there is no rational basis.
What I can easily deduce, however, is that it is probably safe to say none served a day in a military uniform, stationed overseas at a young age, if ever in uniform at all.
I have no qualms about explaining my background. I served 21+ years in the US military. I first served as an enlisted soldier and then the majority of my career was as a commissioned officer.
Trust me, I could tell you stories into the night about some of the idiotic and/or criminal things I have personally witnessed GIs do..in their OWN country, and I offer no excuses for some of the boorish behavior I have witnessed here in Korea.
But let’s keep it in perspective, folks. Aside from the outright criminal behavior, for which NO excuse can be given – as that same behavior is 100% unacceptable in America as well – much of the perception toward American GIs is either unwarranted or is the result of ignorance of cultural norms, customs, etc.
Let me address first the unwarranted perception. It cannot be ignored that a certain segment of the Korean population (albeit a minority) detests the reality that 28,500 or so American GIs are residing in their country. They do not believe there is a real purpose for it. Whether they be right or wrong, they purposely paint the pincture of American GIs in as bad a light as possible, in order to add fodder to the argument that USFK should pull up stakes and return to America. They present dishonest anecdotal testimony wherein outright falsehoods are perpetuated, and unjust allegations are made.
Now to the ignorance. Many American GIs are young, impressionable men who are away from their homes for the first time in their lives. They are fairly recently out of high school, where their single greatest concern in life was what to do on a Friday or Saturday night after school. They are young and full of vinegar, and their life skills are yet to be sharpened. Yes, they possess an overabundance of testosterone occasionally, and their braggadocio (sp?) is in excess. But inside, there is mostly never any malicious intent. They are victims of misunderstanding – an inability to immediately grasp and adjust to the cultural differences they are presented with.
A small child knows no etiquette; he will pick his nose or say inappropriate things in a crowd. Young GIs are in many ways similar. They are not here to steal away Korean women, or to treat Koreans disrespectfully at every opportunity. For the most part, their boorish behavior at times is a failure to understand that it is inappropriate from a general standpoint in Korean culture. They must be taught to tone down their behavior, and yes, when it reaches the point of excess, punished. But to paint GIs in a universal light? well…that’s just ignorant.
I believe that in terms of reprehensible behavior, there is nothing under the sun this side of homicide that Chickenhead has missed out on in a storied career on the peninsula.
Geez Louise, wiessej — You couldn’t be more wrong. Based on your demonstrated powers of deduction, I’ll guess you were in the Army and your specialty was not intelligence or cryptology. Gah! Army Strong! Army smash!
This blog’s commentariat is, in fact, absolutely chockablock with former military Korean linguists. Plus one former Chinese linguist who was stationed with the Korlings and later became a lawyer who did a research fellowship in the Korean Ministry of Justice’s SOFA team. So stop trying to bring us up to speed, dude. You’re just showing your ass.
I could tell you’re a mustang; the chip on your shoulder is unmistakable.
Come on! Really? Who hasn’t seen myriad examples of Korean males in little tribal groups indulging in analogously puerile and offensive bahaviour, both towards foreigners and amon one another.
wiessej,
Some good points, and I agree with many of them (aside from the idea that other English speaking foreigners might be jealous of the GIs – not sure how you figure that one). Anyway, my two-cents:
Many GIs are just kids, as you say, and 20-year old soldiers are wont to do silly things occasionally. But I can’t help but wonder how well behaved, by comparison, Korean soldiers would be if they were stationed in the US (or any other western country). I could be wrong, but I’m guessing they would be a much better behaved outfit. So maybe censure and criticism is a good thing. If they behave badly (and by all accounts, my own personal experience included in Gwangju, they often do), they ought to cop the feedback on the chin.
One last point, on this comment:
Unwarranted? A minority?
No country, and no people, enjoy having foreign soldiers on the soil, regardless of the reason. I’d say 99% of Koreans don’t like it. That’s the unfortunate reality, and it’s something that I think is entirely understandable in any people with a sense of pride in themselves. Just put yourself in their shoes – how would you feel if there were 30,000 French stationed in America for 50 years, even if it was for your own good – especially if it was for your own good? (Sacrebleu, you’d probably be spitting on them in no time!)
I’m just amazed there isn’t more trouble. It only took a few months of US servicemen stationed in Australia in WW2 before there was open fighting in the streets, despite the very good reasons for them being there, and a very good relationship between the countries and people.
The simple fact is Korean and other cultures are incompatible. And Koreans work very hard to keep it that way. Psychologically, they still want this country to remain the hermit kingdom. I make no judgement if it is right or wrong. It is what it is.
Strange, I was going to say almost exactly the same thing.
I remember walking with my 2 Korean girlfriends near Hongdae and these two English-native-speaking guys came up in that we are all on spring-break manner and said
“YAAAAW WHAT”S UP?” and kept harassing us to pose for photos with them and wouldn’t go away until we did so. At the time I guess we were all too polite and shocked to plainly say f.off.
I don’t know if they were tourists or soldiers or English teachers.
Korean men might act bad but they rarely do it in that same eyecatching manner of “over-the-top horndogs gone wild off the leash”. Maybe they do it when they go for sex-tourism in other countries.
And as for hospitality, aren’t they in the country to serve as soldiers first? Is it the host nation’s responsibility to provide them with nightly entertainment? If you think this is so (like another scum commenter on the other thread I won’t name), then they should go serve in the lala land of Full Metal Jacket as extras.
One last point I forgot to make (my previous message is in moderation) –
Not wanting to put too fine a point on it, but Koreans are under no obligation to try to understand the cultural norms and customs of American GIs when they’re out and about in Korea. On the contrary: it’s up to the soldiers to have a better understanding of the country (and the people, culture and language) they’re stationed in. (And I’d say the same if they were Australian personnel).
You cannot equate the behavior of Koreans and foreigners (soldiers). The in-group/out-group rationalization that occurs when Koreans witness incidents with one group versus the other is inevitable and for better or worse requires that US soldiers live to a higher standard than their Korean counterparts. “But Koreans do it too,” while true, is maybe the least helpful way to approach this issue.
If US soldiers want to act like asses back home where their behavior will be excused because they are young and stupid rather than being attributed to the United States or its Armed Forces then fine. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable that they’re held to a higher standard overseas and I don’t think it’s uncalled for to issue stricter penalties and institute training policies to stress the importance of their roles as unofficial diplomats and representatives of the nation they have enlisted to defend–after all they are on a tour of duty and not a pleasure cruise.
Defending our nation should definitely include defending its reputation from being tarnished by our own inappropriate behavior–whether you’re a soldier or not.
Actually, just revisited that link I posted on the “Battle of Brisbane”, which involved Australian soldiers and American GIs, and there are a lot of parallels between the issues that plague the American presence in the ROK.
The final toll from the fighting that took place in Brisbane were:
- 1 Australian killed
- 8 minor gunshot wounds
- 6 baton injuries
- 100′s with black eyes, split lips, swollen cheeks, broken noses and various abrasions
The reasons for the fighting?
- American pay levels compared to the Australians
- smarter American uniforms compared to the Australians
- shops and hotels favouring the well-paid Americans
- Americans pinching their Aussie girls (and in some cases their wives)
- and the Americans’ custom of caressing girls in public
Sound familiar?
Does anyone have firsthand knowledge about what (if any) training U.S. military personnel receive in Korean culture, living in Korea, being a good guest in a host country, cultural sensitivity, not being an ass, etc.?
All Army and Air Force personnel, at least, had to endure a briefing on all of the foregoing topics while inprocessing upon arrival in Korea. The Army likes to gobble up soldiers’ time — once a week, I think — for various interminable harangues under the rubric of “training” and some of the training is on cultural stuff and don’t be an ass. Plus there’s the American Forces Network, which reinforces the indoctrination by replacing commercials with messages of probity and moderation. AFN is TV brought to you by your Mom and Dad — You’re an ambassador here. Don’t blow all your money. Tuck in your shirt. Eat a vegetable. Wear a belt.
All of this, plus the high quality standards of the all-volunteer force, goes a long way to explaining the remarkably low crime rate associated with USFK personnel. As for noncriminal cretinous behavior, well, that’s mostly explainable by the dumbstick.
I’ve seen just as much dumbassery on the part of non-soldiers as soldiers here, but I think that soldier dumbassery tends to stick in people’s minds more since they’re a lot more noticeable (travel in larger groups, tend to be loud, distinctive haircuts, often physically large, etc.) than the average hagwon monkey.
Pretty stupid assumption… considering some of them are stationed here.
Well we’ve already seen their reaction to the British Army being stationed there!
I notice you all dodged the main point “wiessej” was trying to make…
“I do not know the background of the people who post here, but it appears to me by the things they write that many are westerners from English speaking countries who themselves hold some animosity toward America or Americans. “
You noticed wrong, Hoju’s addressed it perfectly well, and rather politely given the completely facile statement that it was.
Although maybe not quite so facile as imagining that aside to be his main point given the extensuve paragraphs following it.
A lot of issues here to address. First of all servicemembers have received briefings and training on Korean culture for years. However, this is something that has to be reinforced over and over again by unit leadership because all that training they receive when they first arrived goes down the memory hole once these guys spend time in the ville and begin to think that their behavior there is acceptable in real Korea.
Also the DUI is nothing new. Back in August for example there was 2 DUI convictions. There has been a steep increase in DUI’s ever since the lifting of the USFK driving ban that once prevented most servicemembers from driving. In 2009 there was 19 DUI’s and in 2010 there was 28. This is something I have been concerned about because imagine what would happen if one of the drunk drivers runs over some kid?
As far as the stationing of foreign troops in the US, there are foreign soldiers stationed in the US. There are 680 German Air Force personnel stationed at Holloman AFB, NM and well over 2,000 total Germans when you include their families. There are additional German Air Force personnel stationed down at Ft. Bliss, TX as well. There are also 150 Singapore Air Force personnel stationed in Arizona and are a larger number when you include their families. Another nation, Japan regularly rotates troops to the US as well to places like Ft. Bliss and Yakima, WA. Also I haven’t been to a military school yet that didn’t have a large number of foreign military personnel to include a number of Koreans. There are also many foreign military exchange instructors in the US. So there is plenty of foreign military personnel in the US and I have never heard them causing any problems. However they are not clustered in one tight geographic area like USFK is in Korea and there is no media out to sensationalize every little crime that does happen. In my experience in Korea most Koreans have not seen or interacted with a GI and thus their opinion of them are greatly skewed by the media. That goes for foreigners in general really.
Additionally the foreign military personnel sent to the US are generally some of the best that country has to offer since it is a great career progression for them to be chosen to train or be stationed in the US. USFK on the otherhand has to man a fighting force on the peninsula which is primarily composed of young male enlisted men. I don’t care where you go in the world, young males are going to get in trouble. The stats I have compiled shows that there has been an increase in crime in USFK the past few years but most of it has been because of increased driving infractions. There has also been an increase in assault convictions which I think is because of possibly the curfew change because there is more time available to get in trouble and increased willingness of local authorities to prosecute assaults. Overall though the crime rate per capita continues to be lower than the Korean average.
Brendon wrote (#6):
Wiessej’s comment (#4) was a good one, and I think your comment, Brendon, is the one showing ass.
Many of the soldiers and sailors I met in Korea were a lot more humble and interested in Korean culture than many of the so-called foreign businessmen I met there. I wonder how many businessmen have visited Korean orphanages, helped Korean flood victims, or helped Korean farmers in their fields.
By the way, Robert Koehler, who has never served in the military, does seem to focus a lot more attention on “GI crimes” than on the good things the US military has done in Korea.
GB you might have some credibility if your observations had any relevance to the point which BC clearly objected to.
Gerry — I agree with your observation that the country managers and foreign professionals generally engage in less hands-on philanthropy and community outreach than USFK. The AmCham set prefers self-congratulatory charity golf tournaments, and a charity black-tie prom, where they can raise a few tens of thousands of dollars and have pictures taken clapping each other on the back. But hey, they’re busy.
On the other hand, country managers and foreign professionals engage in far fewer punch-ups and taxi-driver stabbings. I know which behavior I find more objectionable, shipmate, but your mileage may vary.
You know, fellow civilians, we could afford to quit whining so much and talk to the “kids away from home” a bit more ourselves. In probably one of my best experiences in Gwangju, I bought pitchers for a fairly large group of GIs visiting town, and spent quite a while talking with a few more senior guys about my Navy family, about how I appreciated their effort, how I loved Korea and how they could pay me back by behaving honorably around Korean civilians. I’ve had a few similar experiences along the way, as well.
That’s how it works, folks. Interact with them, tell them they’re valued, and then guide them a bit. If you’re any kind of teacher, this really shouldn’t be fucking news to you. Nobody’s gonna try to kick your ass if you lead off with how you appreciate their service.
Yes, they need to feel that in this age, a fundamental part of serving their country honorably is behaving honorably among foreign civilians. But just maybe the person to remind them is you.
Hoju,
I couldn’t have said it better myself. That was perfectly put.
#13,
When I was in the US navy, Australians had a reputation for being very hospitable to US sailors. Families would invite you to dinner, guys would buy you drinks, and womens would give you hugs and kisses.
Whether it was true or not, it was said that Australian women preferred American men because Australian men loved their beer more than their women.
99% of Koreans hate the US presence blah blah blah.
Well they don’t hate it enough to SEND THE YANKEES HOME AND PAY FOR THEIR OWN FUCKING DEFENSE, do they?
Until that day, the bitching rings a wee bit hollow, me lovelies.
You could be right there Gerry; after all, this was 1942 Queensland (not much has changed!)
But I think a number of things were at play:
1. The sheer size of the US presence may have weighed: 600,000 yanks in Brisbane! That’s a lot of over-paid and oversexed troops.
2. The fact that many Australian troops had already been fighting for 2 years prior to the Americans showing up (in SE Asia and North Africa), and had had their efforts disparaged by MacArthur and many other US officers*, despite the horrendous conditions they’d been fighting in, and several astonishing victories. Then to return home on leave and to find well-dressed, well-spoken, cocky yet untested soldiers stealing your women and making light of your efforts…
*According to Wikipedia, the American officers in Australia made fun of the Australian army, and the jokes soon spread to all the local troops. The jokes only ceased after the Americans were finally tested in the Buna sector and ran into the same problems – seasoned Japanese soldiers, tropical disease and logistical nightmares – and fared just as badly.
3. The fact that Queenslanders, even today, quite enjoy beer and fighting (arguably more than their women)!
4. As I already mentioned, the fact that US troops had lots more money, smarter uniforms, stockings, chocolates, a foreign accent etc, while the local diggers had to make do with khaki and not much else.
Anyway, my grandfather fought in Papua, and his family billeted American troops, one of whom got in touch for his funeral. In his memoirs he spoke fondly of his American mates, so the ill-feelings can’t have been to widespread. (He also gave blood to save a Japanese soldier, but that’s another story)…
Anyway, I found the whole Battle of Brisbane story pretty funny. But it similarities between how Koreans react and how Australians reacted back in the day struck me as very similar. And the same issues are at play (though less so now that Koreans have more money): the relatively well-off, young, cocky soldier, his disdain at local culture and customs (and men) and offence taken at the sight of him carousing with local girls.
All very understandable, IMO.
Good story, though 600,000 in a space as small as brisbane in the 40′s compared to 28500 in the whole of korea, i can see why thered be a problem.
Push in your dresser drawer after you take out a pair of socks. Anyone else remember that scene in a public service announcement from the early 90s?
I understand why Australians were upset — with that kind of attitude, I kinda feel like punching you in the face myself.
#28
Trust me, they hate enough to badly enough to want US presence to pack up and GTFO.
It’s those government assholes that wants US presence to stay because they lack the backbone. This is why we need revolution in this country. Bunch of spineless old geezers deciding our fate.
Same as Japan. Japanese people want US to get the fuck out. It’s those people in the government and diet members that wants US presence to stay.
Oh yeah, and China and Russia would also like US to get the fuck out of Korea, Japan, and Asia as a whole.
You’re learning, Gerry. Now all you have to do is hint that I’m actually a Zainichi and you’ll be ready for 2ch.
Don’t forget us Americans. We want our troops to get the fuck out as well. Handle your own defense problems, biatches.
Then blame it on your government, bitches.
What do you think all the Ron Paul supporters are doing, exactly?
To Brendon Carr –
I was a “mustang”? You are showing your age and distance from the reality of US military service. The only other time I have heard that term used was when my father described it – and he served back in the 1950′s. I deduce from your tone that IF you ever served, you were an enlisted servicemember – and many of them have their heads so far up their asses with animosity toward commissioned officers that everything that comes out of their mouths is an attempt at condescention.
Nevertheless, it is clear you are out of touch with your OWN assumptions concerning the training and briefings in-bound USFK servicemembers receive – oh, and the impact AFN has on their indoctrination to Korea. Yeah, AFN reinforces them..RIGHT! About as much as watching “Ren and Stimpy”!
Then you go on to mention “the remarkably low crime rate associated with USFK personnel.” WTF, BC!! My WHOLE POINT!! DUH!
Yes. I’m 75 years old and never served.
Gerry,
Robert also posts when good things happen from the US military’s action(s), but you must admit that it’s the drinking and the beatings that puts the butts in the seat here, allowing anyone with a…passion to go on about whatever they want for as long as they want.
weiss,
You are writing with your head up your keister. Brendon is the aforementioned Chiling (Chinese linguist, pointed out to you without a hint of condenscension, and you’re really disappointing in trying to show how much you know and how disagreeable you can be. You could have remained silent and we wouldn’t have known how much you didn’t know, but you had to prove it to us, didn’t you? OK, it’s done – move on.
#41,
Again – I forgot to tell you, some of what you write is interesting, so don’t stop those cards and letters just because you’ve got an omelet on your face. We’ve (mostly) all been there.
#29 is the key comment of this thread. I once was talking to a chica I met in Hongdae and she was bitching about the behavior of U.S. troops (I forget what the complaint du jour was) and how they shouldn’t be allowed off post. I said, “Good point. Our troops should leave Korea tomorrow and you won’t have this problem anymore.”
“Wha…? American troops leave?”
“Sure, why not? You’ve got a great military. I’ve seen it.”
“But, but, then North Korea might think they could attack.”
“Your army rocks. You can handle the midgets of the Nork army driving their rusted T-55 tanks, all of whom will stop at the first Family Mart they see anyway.”
“But, but, the North doesn’t know that. They might miscalculate and attack if American troops leave.”
“Look, I’m tired of subsidizing your defense and then you people treating our soldiers like monkeys who should remain in their cage.”
Anyway, no happy endings with that chica.
#43
Well one things for sure, with his powers of deduction, Wiessej sure ain’t ever gonna be burdened by the nickname Sherlock.
Congratulations on outing BC as a geriatric enlistee private.
is wiessej a sock for mizar?
Cactus wrote (#41):
I was thinking the same thing while reading your comment.
I know Brendon’s history and generally like him, but I do not like it when he goes overboard (that’s a navy term) with his criticism of people and acts like he is better than others.
I’ve noticed every once in a while the Hole gets an empassioned commenter who furiously types out comments, sometimes with strategic placement of CAPs in a futile attempt to make the words shout off the screen, but who eventually gives up and we never hear from him or her again. I think the last one was a certain extremely self-righteous Canuckie-Dutchman.
All I can say is “tic, toc, tic, toc…”
To hoju –
In the US a few years ago, a Korean-born student at Virginia Tech University went on a rampage and killed dozens of students and faculty before dying himself. There was NO outcry against the Korean community, despite the fear by Koreans here that Americans would blame pretty much all of Korea for the isolated actions of one disturbed individual. This guy killed dozens in a matter of hours. No one protested outside his parents’ home or business. There were no vigilante groups going around beating up Asians for this. Because common sense told everyone with a brain that the actions of the one (or the few) do not warrant idiocy and an exaggerated sense of blame. That type of common sense is superseded in this country and society by the group ideology Koreans share – if one does something there is an inherent feeling of guilt or blame attached to all. That is what is done to all GIs when a mere few cross the line of impropriety.
I am ALL for stringing up any GI rapist by his scrotum is found guilty of the crime. But when GIs are 13x LESS likely than Koreans to commit a violent crime in Korea (statistics SHOW this based on the numbers of GI convictions/Korean arrestes in 2009), then it is nothing short of bias when a task force is formed and a curfew is put into effect to address TWO alleged rapes. TWO alleged violent crime in a country where Koreans themselves commit about 10,000 rapes per year. And the whole situation is stoked by a media that perpetuates the group blame ideology by over emphasizing or simply skewing statistics to show them in the worst possible light.
You would say 99% of Koreans don’t like Americans being on Korean soil? You know, in some measure, I probably agree with you. But a LARGE number merely don’t like that we HAVE to be here. They don’t like that conditions exist that have required US presence. A few years ago, in downtown Seoul, about 5,000 protesters assembled to march against USFK’s presence here in Korea. A short time after THAT protest, a group that was probably about twice as large (10,000) as the previous one marched in SUPPORT of USFK’s presence here.
In pretty much every society where free people are dissatisfied, they protest. But what is overlooked are those who are satisfied with the way things are. Unless there is a revolution occurring (Last I looked, the streets of Seoul were pretty peaceful) the silent majority sits at home watching those protests on TV, quietly satisfied that the police are dispersing those protesters.
If 99% of the Korea people wanted USFK gone, then USFK WOULD be gone. The reality is, however, that USFK’s presence (which has continued over the years to be reduced) is wanted in South Korea. Like Japan, South Korea’s economy has been allowed to thrive without the overwhelming burden of maintaining a military force of viable size and strength to defend against an attack of any appreciable size. They have relied heavily on America’s military presence, all the while their civilian population crying foul from underneath the very blanket of security that the subjects of their criticism provide them.
If USFK was gone tomorrow, several things would happen. First, North Korea would be about as happy as a ten-year old kid at Christmas. Second, the South Korean economy would be stressed significantly to replace their military machine with parts left void by the US withdrawal – something the Korean populace would be unable and unwilling to bear. That includes an intelligence collection effort that provides early warning to the South free of charge that the South simply cannot replicate, unless you know of some South Korean spy satellites, U-2s or other TOP SECRET reconnaissance aircraft in the South Korean inventory that I am unaware of. With the US military gone, the South would be without much of the 21st century weapons systems that only the US has. The South’s navy is a bunch of rowboats in comparison to the US, which would move its it entire 7th Fleet of ships (to include aircraft carrier strike groups) out of Asian waters. The 7th Air Force, headquartered at Osan would be gone, along with its two air wings of modern F-16s and A-10s, as well as its support units and reconnaissance aircraft. The bomber support from Guam would also be gone, as would any support headquartered in Japan that is positioned there in the event of hostilities. There would be a HUGE hole that South Korea has repeatedly shown it cannot yet fill – which is why the assumption of control of their own forces by a wartime command has been pushed back at their own request several times – this time until 2015 (Until about a year or so ago, they had agreed to take over in 2012).
Hey, a LOT of Americans want USFK to dissolve and for US forces to exit Korea – it would be one helluva a financial relief to the US. BUt your 99% flies in the face of reality. Koreans have the right to vote. If they vote for candidates that want the US gone, the US would be gone…blaming government officials is not the answer.
@48
I’ve been thinking the same thing, from about the first day he plopped in…
To Cactus –
Thanks for telling me about Brendon’s background. A chinese linguist? Assuming he was int he US Army as a Chinese linguist. HA…I know it is a very tough language to master, so kudos to him for that. I really mean it. It’s like a level 4 difficulty if I recall, and requires a lot of schooling at Monterey (if DLI even existed yet when he served).
BUT – for him to suggest for a moment that having been a Chinese linguist (most are enlisted servicemembers – so my guess was probably right about that) has provided him more insight than my own experiences? Double HA. I will remember that.
To wedge and cmm – get used to me. I won’t waste time replying to most sarcastic personal attacks, as they have nothing to do with my comments, and really aren’t worth the time – like Tilley’s posts. If you don’t like that I write – don’t read it at all – just move on to another post.. If you simply don’t agree with WHAT I write, feel free to maturely critique it and the discussion is bound to be informative for us both. Otherwise have a great day.
The Marmot wrote (#35):
Don’t worry. I am not going to confuse you for a Zainichi just because you wear a hanbok everywhere and generally kiss Korean ass. Also, I know you’re not an English teacher, and I know you’re not an GI. You’re above all of that because you’re an editor, right?
To Cactus –
You wrote: “…you’re really disappointing in trying to show how much you know and how disagreeable you can be. You could have remained silent and we wouldn’t have known how much you didn’t know, but you had to prove it to us, didn’t you? OK, it’s done – move on.”
Please point out errors in my posts so that I can humbly admit I was incorrect. I certainly don’t want to be uninformed. If you have a few specifics, I would genuinely be happy to know. If, though, your opinion is all that is different from my own, please make sure to point that out as well. I would very much appreciate knowing where I have stepped outside of appropriate fact and conclusions.
But to say I don’t know much…well…a blanket statement like that? Not much to go on here.
wiessej (#52):
Brendon was a navy Chiling stationed in Korea, but that does not mean he mastered the Chinese language. It takes more than just the beginning course at DLI to do that, even though Brendon is quite intelligent.
Gerry — Ain’t that a fact! Allegedly I was at the top of my class, excelled only by a Chinese-American airman, but thereafter I may have been dispatched to Korea. Still, I ranked as sixth-best in the Navy in whatever that professional-skills assessment was. Opportunities to master Chinese here in Korea are few and far between. I still hold my own with the Chinese news broadcasts, though, and now also with Korean — especially legal Korean.
And thank for noting my smarts. I have, in fact, been assessed to possess a genius-level IQ perhaps matched only by Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius.
to gbevers – still, Chinese is a tough language – even to master to the 2,2 level. I was able to get 2+,2+ in French, but that’s a language with the same alphabet, a lot of the same words, etc. But I wasn’t a linguist. I just too the DLPT for the extra money. Sometimes attitude + intelligence = sarcasm…not really good for conversation. If someone is wrong (or I think thay are) I point it out. As a rule, I don’t call names or try to inflate my ego by putting others down with sarcastic comments. I know that is the approach some insecure people use, and more power to them.
You are a piece of work, Gerry. Don’t ever change.
Actually, statistics SHOW that GIs are more likely to commit crimes than Koreans.
Actually, I just realized that you wrote: “statistics SHOW this based on the numbers of GI convictions/Korean arrestes in 2009″
That’s some staggering stupidity. Do you even know the difference between “conviction” and “arrestes” [sic]?
@52
Relax bro, nobody is telling you to go away.
I don’t know, you haven’t let too many of them go yet…
case in point.
No need to take offense. There are quite a few of us on this board who have been here for years and have seen the phenomenon more than once. Wedge is one of those, and was just pointing that out.
Re Cactus’s comment @41 – Since a lot of us have been here for years, we know the backgrounds of each other, and we know there are plenty of former soldiers here, so I’m sure several were rolling our eyes at your comments @4. I certainly was. In fact, I was looking forward to Brendon’s reply.
The other thing is–and I’m not saying this as criticism but rather to give you a point of reference for your audience here–offhand I can’t think of single event/news story/that you’ve brought up and explained here that we haven’t discussed in much more detail in the past. The way a lot of your posts read, at least to me, is as if you are coming in here and opening our eyes to a body of knowledge previous veiled, and sounding a bit high and mighty along the way. Again, I’m sure several others’ eyes were rolling, and their heads are shaking up and down now.
If you plan on sticking around, that’s great, welcome to the club. Just curious though – what can you bring to the board aside from knowledge of the USFK? Not that that’s important–I come here mainly just to be a smartass to people who will get it.
Oh, I just remembered, I still owe Brendon an answer to something a few weeks back about taxes and making arguments that don’t come close to trying give a rigorous treatment to the facts.
@59 Here’s a question – for the sake of argument, let’s assume your stats are rock solid. They show that USFK are slightly more crime prone… If you filter the Korean crime stats so that you are comparing USFK crime vs. Korean crime for the same age demographic (the young and old Koreans get cut out of the population count), you’d get the opposite outcome. Not an old argument. But is this a fair defense of stating that the USFK is less crime prone?
I say yes.
#54,
Aside from your complete failure to recognized Brendon for having been that ideal man, the US Navy linguist? Aside from assuming that most of us are unaware of the USFK side of things? Nothing, really, and as I indicated, I like your writing (truth be told, some of it), but so far, your perspective has been clouded by snark and I-know-what’s-going-on-and-you-don’t.
But maturely critiquing it? You were talking out of your ass and you were caught doing so. There’s some concision for you, too.
The Korean wrote (#59)
I just looked at your calculations on the ROK Drop, where you did a comparison with the total population of Korea, which includes children and the elderly. I suggest you redo your calculations using the population of Koreans between 18 and 50 years old, which should be roughly equivalent to the age of GIs in Korea. I would guess the average Korean 3-year-old would commit fewer crimes than the average American 20-year-old since he doesn’t yet have a driver’s license and is drinking juice instead of OB.
The Korean wrote:
Also, GI Korea pointed out that arrests and convictions for Koreans are essentially the same since Korea has a 99% conviction rate.
Wiessej: I think you miss the point on USFK’s departure. It’s not about what the ROKs will be incapable of replacing. They could never in any reasonable timeframe, if ever, replace the capability the USFK brings. The point is they don’t have to. They only have to be better than our friends up north. And by that measure, they way exceed the requirement.
This is my quick answer without going into weapons systems, AEW capability (which the South now has), other C3I crap (which they have), counterbattery, ad naseum. The simple truth is the South Korean military far exceeds the Nork military in capability.
So, you USFK guys rock and all that, and a lot of my friends are uniformed or civilian parts of that organization, but I submit your presence is no longer required to keep the peace on this here peninsula.
cmm — I am totally confused by what you said. Could you explain it differently?
Sure, that’s why I don’t put too fine a point on it. Recall that wie-whatever said Koreans are 13 times more likely to commit crimes than GIs. My sense is that even if we filter the stats that way, Koreans will come nowhere close to 13 times more likely to commit crimes than GIs.
Not all arrests lead to a criminal action in court. In fact, vast majority of arrests do not lead to a court action, particularly given the criminal settlement system.
By the way Gerry, if you have time to hang out in this thread, you should stop by the Kim Tae-Hee thread. I saw JK and frogmouth waiting for you there.
The Korean (#66):
So they did the crime, but they paid the victim money to keep it out of court?
Go deal with the other thread first, Gerry.
The Korean wrote (#67):
Yes, I have read their silly taunts and will respond to them, but I have only had short periods of time at my computer because I have been busy running errands for my dad, doing housework, interacting with my son, and generally doing more interesting things. Anyway, it is nice to know you are paying attention to that thread.
“Crime” is the wrong metric anyway, as Korea defines as criminal a whole panoply of matters which are civil or administrative in the United States. For example, is a moving violation a “crime”? Anti-USFK Korean activists love to cite statistics which include moving violations (and parking violations!) in order to overstate things. Most of us Americans would exclude those. Similarly, if I were sorting things I would not only filter by age and gender, but I would also exclude the Korean prosecutions for crimes such as defamation, moving violations, and parking violations.
When you get down to brass tacks, there are maybe two dozen felonious-type “crime” crimes reported for the USFK population per annum.
To Wedge –
It’s not about whether the South far outweighs the North in military capability. They probably do. But, as things stand now, the North KNOWS that if they attacked into South Korea, the US-ROK Alliance would have as one of its primary objectives to destroy the Kim regime and work toward a re-unified Korean Peninsula. With USFK here, and with the mechanisms in place to make that a reality in the even of such an unfortunate circumstance, North Korea has limited their hostility to occasional acts of provocation that fall far short of warranting action to invade North Korea and topple the regime. The assets and intelligence collection systems that provide the South with enough warning of such a possibility are mainly from the US and are exploited for their intelligence value right here. Take away all of that, and the ROK would be like the man with one eye squinting in a blizzard to see what is coming. So, whether you realize it or not, the North is both far less likely to invade now and far less likely to have measurable success with USFK here if they did. If North Korea was to invade with USFK here, they would have a good couple of days before the tide was turned against them. Without USFK, it is extremely likely that barrier systems would be activated all the way to Taegu before attrition and logistics shortcomings turned the tide. But by the time that would happen, the loss of life in South Korea would be so great that the mere prospect is unacceptable to the ROK.
So to summarize: You linked to the GI Korea thread in which you accused someone else of comparing oranges to apples, when in fact you did the same thing.
You then proclaimed that you had “punctured a hole” in the overarching thesis that GIs are less likely to commit crimes than average Koreans, which turned out to be false, and then claimed that wasn’t “putting too fine a point on it.”
In fact, if you use Koreans of the ages 20-49 (based on the population distribution chart here), assuming about 21.5M in that age range (w/ roughly 27.5M in the 0-19 and 50+ based on a quick eyeballing), the crime rate for Koreans would be about 1.64%, and for GIs 0.72%.
So it looks like there was a hole punctured in a thesis, but that puncturing just occurred on your end rather than his. Given the GI crime rate appears to be less than half of that of Koreans (at worst, with probably a bigger disparity, see Brendon @ 71), perhaps some new these should be forthcoming.
these—>theses.
Yuna,
The only thing that exceeds the banality of your posts is your inability to grasp what people are saying in the English language. To wit, you are a thick little bitch, aren’t you? The comment you misinterpret in no way implies a responsibility, just a reasonable assumption that as extended to the likes of you in western countries, you won’t discriminate, especially when a), GI crime rate is much lower than that of your average Korean citizen and b), these boys could be called on to defend your country, a country that they have no reason to defend. But then again, as with most Koreans of your age, steeped in the kind of bigoted one-blood, uri-nara bile that your Pyongyang-kissing teachers force fed you, you have no idea of the sacrifices made by other countries for the existence of your own. As for the scum comment, that would make us peas in a pod. You’ve repeatedly shown your reluctance to call your co-ethnics, Pawi and the like, on their bigotry, preferring to do what most of your lot have learned to do in the west – only make a song and dance about it when whitey does it. What I said may have been a tad OTT as my postings are from time to time, but at least I have a tad more wit than the almighty breathed into a goat and the capacity to understand context. Anyhow, fuck you, all fifth column fatherland lubbers and all those who sail in you, toots.
As I said, church bells ringing,
in a valley far away..
To thekorean – my metrics were not in reference to “crime” in general. If I forgot to specify that, I apologize. My metrics involved the top five most serious crimes (as a group) that the KNP themselves list on their website (murder, rape, burglary, theft and assault). My comments either said, or meant to say “violent crime”. In 2009, more than 450,000 (I will use 450,000 for simplicity) arrests were made for violent crimes. In that same year, 21 GIs were convicted in a Korean court for violent crimes. I didn’t even consider things like driving violations, DUIs, etc. Just those five violent crimes listed by the KNP. However, the Korean media WILL use such minimal things as a simple moving violation to pad the statistics when they say that USFK members’ crime rate has jumped 64%, – or whatever stat they want to use.
Your suggestion that the factor of 13 would be less if I tossed out the population that is under a certain age is exactly opposite of what would happen. For example, if we assume that rapes are committed by criminals aged roughly 20-50 (what you suggest is the USFK set), and I throw out the Korean population that is under age 20, then rather than 450,000 violent crimes being committed annually in a population set of 48.7 million, I would be dispersing that same number (a constant) across a population of roughly 39 million (accounting for about 20% of the Korean population being below the age of 20). So instead of one violent crime per 101 Koreans, it’s one violent crime per 86 Koreans. In USFK, it’s one violent crime for every 1,357 GIs. So with those figures, insted of 13x more, it’s 15x more. If you think I ought to throw out everyone above say…70 years old, the factor would climb even more.
I appreciate your suggestion, but it strengthens my argument, not weakens it.
For those of us just catching up, those crimes are homicide, battery, robbery, rape, and arson. “Robbery” in this context may mean “larceny” — i.e., theft, burglary, and robbery — but it’s been a while and I stored my statistical materials. I think it’s just robbery, though.
To cmm-
Thanks for your insight. I hope you will re-read my exact words so that you stay a little more on azimuth in addressing my points.
I stated exactly: “What I can easily deduce, however, is that it is probably safe to say none served a day in a military uniform, stationed overseas at a young age, if ever in uniform at all.”
Notice I said I “deduced” that it was “probably safe to say”…..but more to follow on that.
Regardless, from the comments here, I can nevertheless tell that many who comment here (just as I) lack insight into some areas about which they are providing comments, especially about USFK and the US military in general. I don’t know if Brendan made a full career of the military or not – but him having been a linguist enables me to “deduce” that it likely didn’t expose him to some of the things I have been exposed to. I don’t know if that is necessarily true of Navy linguists, but I know 100% that it is true of Army linguists, hence my “deduction”.
As far as me failing to presume that many have been here for years and these comments have been discussed quite a bit during that time, I would submit that a) the moderator ought to find other topics, and/or b) even IF the topics are old and I may be a newbie here, it doesn’t mean that my perspective is inherently inferior or less valid.
If I appear “snarky” (unpleasant/scornful), my apologies. I guess telling someone they talk out their ass is the accepted colloquialism here and isn’t considered either unpleasant or scornful (or “snarky”)?
Again, if you have a particular issue with WHAT I say, and a concern as to its validity or “invalidity”, I would welcome the mature discussion to which I referred. You have said I assumed some things – so that is talking out my ass? I guess I just need to know how you define that….because when I looked it up, “talking out your ass” doesn’t mean others disagree with me, it means “when someone says something stupid that they have no proof of”. By making an deduction (to derive as a conclusion from something known or assumed) and saying it was a deduction, and not a fact – that was talking out my ass? Hell, I would say that pretty much everyone here is talking out their ass, if that’s how YOU define it. Either way, to say that to me was a bit snarky anyway you look at it.
I am only reading the last comment about the number game, but in science pressure is force per unit area innit.
Aren’t we talking about Hongdae and Itaewon and a few taxi rides from the camp towards these night areas?
In perception, conspicuous equivalent to pressure.
If you’re asking whether I ever worked in the motor pool or picked up cigarette butts, the answer is no.
To the Korean:
You wrote above: First quoting me – “But when GIs are 13x LESS likely than Koreans to commit a violent crime in Korea (statistics SHOW this based on the numbers of GI convictions/Korean arrestes in 2009), then it is nothing short of bias when a task force is formed and a curfew is put into effect to address TWO alleged rapes.”
Now your comment – “Actually, statistics SHOW that GIs are more likely to commit crimes than Koreans.”
I didn’t say crime. I said VIOLENT crime. The five violent crimes on the KNP website indicate 485,406 arrests in 2009 (I just stuck with the 450,000 figure to make the math easier. There were 21 convictions of GIs in the same year. No WAY you can skew the demographics to make the ratio of GI violent crime convictions even remotely close, let alone higher than Korean-on-Korean violent crime. It just ain’t possible.
Please respond.
wiessej-
Again, agree with most of what you say, but one small point – US troops are not in the ROK out of a sense of altruism -they’re there primarily to defend the US and its interests. If the US had nothing to gain (i.e., no threat of a new push by China into east Asia, no market to protect, no foothold on the west pacific to maintain), they wouldn’t be there. Not that the ROK shouldn’t be thankful, or that every other country in the world isn’t also motivated by Realpolitik, but let’s be clear: the USFK deployment is no exercise in charity.
And I do sympathise with Americans over the large numbers of anti-American douche-bags about the place, btw.
But I’m just saying: no point complaining about your troops being unpopular. That’s what happens when large numbers of foreign soldiers are stationed abroad. Locals just don’t like them.
Robert-
He won’t, don’t worry.
To Brendan -
You wrote: “If you’re asking whether I ever worked in the motor pool or picked up cigarette butts, the answer is no.”
Nope, not what I am asking. But I do wonder…if you held a TS-SCI clearance, and actually needed it in your job. Wondering if you were routinely exposed to or had access to all-source intelligence. Wondering if in your duties it was ever your responsibility to provide intelligence estimates or summaries for dissemination to any level of command (O-5 up to O-10). Wondering if you ever routinely compiled data and briefed it to a joint commander to assist in his decision-making process. Wondering if you ever drafted for publication in a military journal anything of note dealing with joint military operations. Wondering if you ever spent an appreciable amount of time drafting SOPs that were published and implemented at joint-combined command level. Wondering if you ever routinely sat in on a theater commander’s morning update. Wondering if you ever shared an office with ROK military officer in your daily duties. Wondering if by chance you had any insight into the particular pet peeve expressed this morning by the USFK commander, or if you are privy to his routine updates. Wondering if you have spent 7.5 out of the last 10 years in USFK in any capacity. Wondering if you made the military a 20+ year career. Wondering if you ever did any of this, and if you still do…like me. Just wondering. Oh, I spent my share of time in motor pools and occasionally picking up cigarette butts, too. I never had the joy of painting rocks, but have filled my share of sandbags…but that’s just peripheral stuff.
To hoju_saram –
Trust me, I know that if it wasn’t in America’s interests, USFK wouldn’t be here. But you must also accept that if the President of the Republic of Korea asked Washington that US troops be withdrawn from the ROK, and stood firm, then the US would leave. I don’t begrudge the dislike of US servicemembers by some of the Korean community. It’s a natural thing to dislike or be prejudiced toward people who are different, regardless of the justification. I have never suggested any thing to the contrary. I merely state very clearly that the Korean media dishonestly perpetuates the myth to an already xenophobic society that American GIs are a significant criminal threat – they simply are not. And I provided proof (wasn’t talking out my ass on that) that sch is the case.
To our men and women in uniform, vote for Ron Paul and come home.
wiessej — Keep wondering. Secret means secret. I can tell you I did not make a 20-year career in the military, and don’t bunk with the USFK commander. Guess that makes me some kind of fool.
Especially when “different” is defined as “climbing on taxis, kicking taxis, getting into fights, treating locals rudely, and other acts of general asshatery,” with a side of “long history of unequal relations and high-handed behavior” added in.
Now, as Gerry of Dokdo pointed out, I haven’t served in the military, but I have lived in Itaewon for close to eight years, and in Korea for 14, and if you think the complicated feelings regarding USFK are due simply to prejudice, I suggest you learn about the country in which you currently reside a bit more.
Keeping things in perspective, Korea could have these guys serving on the Peninsula:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mainmenu-26/africa-mainmenu-27/8910-un-troops-accused-of-sex-crimes-worldwide
To Brendan –
Gotcha pal…so, I am talking to a guy who probably enlisted or got drafted out of high school (maybe had some college under his belt first), did a tour or two – possibly making it into the NCO ranks, probably managed to get a college degree or two along the way, or used the GI Bill afterward to do so, and then because the guy he projects his sarcasm to probably has more of a foundation in the topic currently discussed, he sends only snide, sarcastic, one-liner replies. Thanks for responding, BC, and for providing me with. Have a good weekend.
Good Gawd, Robert –
I didn’t say it was only prejudice. You even COPIED my quote. I wrote:
“It’s a natural thing to dislike or be prejudiced toward people who are different, regardless of the justification.”
Gee, I guess I should have added some parentheses, like:
“It’s a natural thing to dislike (or be prejudiced toward) people who are different, regardless of the justification.”
I didn’t simply say prejudiced. Come on…read a little more closely, though.
wiessej — Unless your topic is electrical engineering or Greek philosophy, it’s rare for the person upon whom I’m projecting sarcasm to have a better foundation in the topic than I do. Rare, but not unheard-of; still, you ain’t the guy.
On a slightly-related note, this guy thinks I may have been drafted. The draft ended in 1973. There is a photo of me next to every comment. Contrary to what one may reasonably think, that photo is not of some random model or movie star — it’s me. How old does that photo make me look?! Or is wiessej that clueless?
wiessej:
You are obviously intelligent and have unique life experiences, but do not underestimate Brendon’s intelligence and his unique life experiences, especially when it comes to legal matters in Korea. In fact, there are a lot of intelligent (not me) and fairly intelligent people on this forum. The problem is that many seem often to be in a bad mood (including me) or too “snarky.” Instead of being insightful, too many of the comments devolve into personal attacks and organ measuring.
I am hoping that The Marmot’s Hole will once again become a place where people can come for useful, insightful commentary. I got the impression that you could help provide such commentary, which was why I did not want people chasing you away before you had a chance to get used to the place.
Brendon was right to point out in Comment #6 that you made some wrong assumptions about the people on this forum, but, without your knowing Brendon’s style, I was afraid you would be offended and stop commenting. I like the fact that you were a “mustang” (a new word for me) and a career military guy. That should help give some balance to the comments made about the military on this forum.
Anyway, it would be nice to see the people on this forum commenting without snapping at each other.
Bingo, Bingo, Bingo for cmm @ 61. Hard to say it better than this:
“The other thing is–and I’m not saying this as criticism but rather to give you a point of reference for your audience here–offhand I can’t think of single event/news story/that you’ve brought up and explained here that we haven’t discussed in much more detail in the past. The way a lot of your posts read, at least to me, is as if you are coming in here and opening our eyes to a body of knowledge previous veiled, and sounding a bit high and mighty along the way. Again, I’m sure several others’ eyes were rolling, and their heads are shaking up and down now.”
Seriously, Gerry, you never heard that word before? Weren’t you a chief? I’d have thought for sure you’d know that one.
Slim—And the funny thing is, I think many of us here agree with 90% of what he’s saying. It’s just the way he’s saying it—and the effin’ CAPS—that turn people off. And the line about many of the people here being “Westerners from English-speaking countries who hold animosity towards America or Americans” was just plain asinine.
As others on this thread have said, it is best to judge the USFK crime rate by convictions not arrests for the 5 major crimes. Of these crimes assault is the one crime with a steep increase not sex crimes. I think the increase in DUI’s is something that USFK should be concerned about as well for reasons stated earlier even though it isn’t considered a major crime. What many critics of USFK do is use arrests and minor crimes like parking violations to inflate their statistics.
@66 – Since the KNPA website only has arrests and not convictions I have always made it very clear that the Korean conviction number I am using is based off the reportedly 99% conviction rate in Korean courts of people that are arrested. If you can link to conviction numbers for the 5 major crimes in Korea I will gladly update the statistics.
Exactly, Robert. One can’t show up on a storied blog of 8-9 years running and hundreds of regular readers and assume that history begins on one’s first day there.
The USFK perspective on certain matter is of interest to many of us, but GI Korea and the Kimchee GI (?) have been doing good work on that front for years.
You are still comparing arrests and convictions, and apparently you don’t know the difference between the two.
I don’t give a shit about your argument. Like many on this thread said, nothing you said is new. We all heard it ad nauseum for years and years. All I care about is getting the facts straight. You are clearly incapable of gathering reliable facts and making a valid comparison — so either learn some Korean, learn some Korean law and come up with a valid analysis, or shut up.
GI Korea, you know I respect you and your blog. Your blog is an invaluable resource to understand a major part (if not the most important part) in U.S.-Korea alliance. But when it comes to laws and crimes, your posts often contain huge errors because of your unfamiliarity with Korean law.
Your critical mistake here is assuming that all arrests lead to a court action, like the way it is in Common Law jurisdictions (including America.) That is not the case in Korea. VAST majority of arrests never reach the court. That’s why you have to compare arrests to arrests, not arrests to conviction.
Here is an example — according to KoStat, Korean police nationally arrested a little more than 2 million people. But according to the Jurisprudence Yearbook from the Supreme Court, Korean court tried 263,425 criminal defendants in 2007. You see what’s going on here? In Korean criminal system, more than 85% of arrests never reach the court.
In 2007, 242,196 defendants were found guilty — which makes it about 92% conviction rate among those who reached the court. But if you want to calculate the arrest-to-conviction ratio, it is at 11.5%.
I should clarify that the arrest numbers above also represent the numbers from 2007.
I should also clarify that the arrest-to-conviction ratio is so low because vast majority of crimes in Korean criminal justice system are OSTAC – offense subject to a complaint. This means that even though a crime may have happened, it never reaches the court if the parties settle outside of the court.
Here is the indictment-to-conviction ratio for major crimes in 2007:
- Homicide: 762 indictments, 760 convictions.
- Rape & sexual assault: 2153 indictments, 1800 convictions.
- Arson: 803 indictments, 777 convictions.
- Burglary & robbery: 14044 indictments, 13796 convictions
Gerry,
Understanding the word ‘mustang’ (which, I admit, for as someone as erudite as you are, it’s surprising you don’t know it) could unlock the box holding the original Dokdo map, signed by the King of Korea and Emperor of Japan, agreeing that it’s a worthless spot of shit.
#96 Robert,
Right on, and you gave me a great word to play at Scrabble tonight, if I get a chance – asinine does describe Mr. Weiss’s assumptions, but he’s got more to offer us constructively, I should think.
#102,
And as long as we’re adding to Gerry’s erudition, Mustang in also a place in the Nepal/Tibet region.
I’m ready for an Open Thread.
I’m ready for an Open Thread.
Brendon wrote (#95):
I should have made chief–I was in the navy for four whole years, for Christ’s sake–but they stopped me at CTI2. I suspect office politics were involved.
No, I never heard the word “mustang” used in that way, but a lot of things flew over my head. One of the things I hated about the navy were all the damn acronyms and initialisms. (See HERE.) I could barly understand half of what some of the older guys were saying.
Also, I was not in the “real” navy. I was stationed with only about 45 other sailors at Camp Humphreys, where we had maybe one inspection a year and where I was regularly saluted by the army enlisted and even some of the officers. That eagle on our petty officer caps made a big impression on them.
By the way, for anyone who still does not know, I am American, not Australian, and I do not speak Japanese.
To Brendan -
Your use of the word “mustang” a term used in the 1950′s for someone who became an officer after serving time enlisted was what prompted me to suspect that you served some time ago. As far as your picture – like I am supposed to assume that is you? Should I also assume that yuna (#80) is a little yellow bird who jumps up and down on the keyboard to write? To be honest, if I used your profile photo to try and figure out who you are, my best guess would be some kind of Marty Feldman look-alike, or someone who just enjoys looking retarded – honest. And my picture means I am just a sillhouette, right?
Now going back to the questions I asked about you that you chose to simply answer with sarcasm..I will say point blank that you are too far removed from what happens internally in USFK/CFC to offer an opinion that is more accurate than my own on a number of topics. I am not even depating it with you. No doubt your an intelligent guy, but I knew a guy like you in high school. He got a 38 or something on the ACT, was a good talking, a sophist, actually, but when he was ‘schooled” on a topic, just like you, all he would do was to act more clever and condescending. Hands down..I concede..you win on that basis.
To TheKorean –
You just don’t GET it. According to the KNP, there were about 450,000 violent crimes in Korea in 2009. In that same year, 21 GIs were convicted in Korean courts. Even if I multiply that 21 by 3, that would be 63, the ration is WAY below the Korean rate. You don’t even realize how screwed up you painted the Korean justice system. 85% of arrest not resulting in convictions means the police SUCK at collecting evidence, or the Korean “justice” system allows people to pay their way out of a criminal prosecution, or a combination of those and other factors. SO, another way of saying it is that in Korea, only 15% of violent crimes that are committed make it to court to be prosecuted?? Sorry, but that’s just f’ed up!!
Even so…the incidence of GI violent crime in Korean society is WAYYYYY lower proportionally than the basic crime rate (korean on Korean)…no matter HOW you slice it….so shove it up your ongdong-ee – or however you want to spell it.
As opposed to sounding retarded?
Why? I demand that you “depat” more! I want to know what this “depating” is.
Who even bothers to remember shit like that?
To Robert –
I wrote: “it appears to me by the things they write that many are westerners from English speaking countries who themselves hold some animosity toward America or Americans. Perhaps that animosity is justified, perhaps it is spawned by a sense of jealousy, or perhaps there is no rational basis.”
You wrote: “many of the people here being ‘Westerners from English-speaking countries who hold animosity towards America or Americans’”
Yeah, I know – very little difference there, but since you did put quotes around it, you are clearly attributing it exactly as you wrote it to me – and I didn’t write it that way. In fact, the way you wrote it changes the meaning even. I said it appears to me – because I saw a lot of what could reasonably be characterized as comments that had an anti-American slant to them, plainly written by people whose first language is English. If I am wrong, point it out. Tell me why, as you did in another topic – which I readily admitted. But attacking me draws away from the whole point. I mean, for Christ’s sake, how many of us are sitting here doing doctorate-level research before we sit down and comment about something? I’m a newbie….here! But unless this is some elite dues-paying club, what makes Brendan’s or your opinions more informed than mine – because it’s a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum, and I am not offering any fresh insight? How about you choosing new topics, then…instead of rape cases and GI crime front?
He clearly did, perhaps “asinine” line was too complex for you.
It is also clearly ridiculous to ask someone to to rebut yoir evidence when you gave a sweeping statement of you opinion with no obvious basis whatsoever.
Methinks you you feel the world should bow down to the wonderfulness that it is to be from the land of the free, and any comment even remotely negative is clear evidence of animosity and jealously because naturally we a want to be american.
This kind of world view unfortunaly derives not envy but pity.
As to what makes other more informed than yours, you are the one who superciliuosly has to list your supreme accomplishments and therefore why obly your opinion is “imformed” and tries to classify others as inferior for lacking your superior experience. Non american are dismissed as “seemingly” jealous, lawyers are “deduced” to be enlisted spud bashers whi clearly know nothing. ad infinitum…
Brendon (#92) asks, “How old does that photo make me look?! Or is wiessej that clueless?”
Wait a minute, Brendon! Do you mean in earth years? Or your home planet?
Jeffery Hodges
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I have to admit I liked the Marty Feldman reference. That guy was a genius. Or so I hear — Feldman died in 1982, before my time. I’m not really 75 years old, Ed. I’m six years younger than you.
gbevers #64:
I think that might be the kindest thing Gerry has said about an average Korean (of any age) on this blog for a long time…
That wasn’t called for, I clearly remember him saying he liked Korean hookers once.
Re the crime rate argument, there is the small matter of how often GIs are actually out and about in Korea on their own (or with their peers), and not confined to their bases, or accompanied by senior military brass. A few hours a week? I really don’t know, but I’m going to take a stab (sorry) and say that the rate per hour of GIs causing trouble when in Korea-world are relatively high.
Put it another way, if I’m a Korean cabbie, and I’ve got a choice between picking up a group of western soldiers or Koreans, it’s a no-contest.
I only ever saw GIs out in Gwanju twice. The first time they were at the local foreigners bar, and after a few drinks they all had their shirts off and started doing push-ups on the floor, a ritual that involved a great deal of bellowing and high-fives, and resulted in the rest of the patrons evacuating the bar. The second time they were gathered in a group outside a mini-mart in low-slung jeans and basketball shirts, commenting loudly on the attractiveness of the local females, who scurried past in horror.
The US air-force guys avoided them like the plague, and were good folk. Had many a pint with them at a nearby sedate watering hole; they caused less trouble than the English teachers.
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