The JoongAng Ilbo reports that clubs in the Hongdae area are divided over whether to accept US military personnel into their establishments.
The JoongAng went to Hongdae last Saturday to look around. On one poster advertising “Club Day” was written “No entry for US military or minors.” A staffer checking IDs at one club that belonged to the Club Culture Association said since the recent sexual assaults by GIs, they’ve been cracking down more strongly against GIs entering the clubs. And indeed, the reporter didn’t see any GIs.
At another club belonging to the association, however, there were a lot of foreigners. Even a short-haired white dude who looked like a soldier got in easily. A staffer their said they don’t block GIs from entering, and GIs have never started trouble in their club.
Unlike the clubs of Itaewon and Gangnam, the clubs of Hongdae have banned GIs since November 2002. This, according to the JoongAng Ilbo, was because crimes committed by GIs climbed as more and more GIs went to Hongdae after its club culture caught on. Choe Jeong-han, the chairman of the Club Culture Association, told the JoongAng that there were too many crimes committed by GIs like sexual assaults and sexual harassment, and there was a sense of crisis that the entire neighborhood could collapse if things continued. Choe said all roughly 10 clubs that are members of the association agreed to ban GIs.
Tensions between clubs began from last year. As the Hongdae area grew, dance clubs unaffiliated with the Club Culture Association began mushrooming. When they began accepting GIs, it had an impact on the association’s clubs. The ban on GIs, which was initially mandatory, became an advisory. Choe said some club owners began expressing skepticism about the ban, saying it only hurt them (i.e., clubs in the association). He said from next months, some dance clubs would split off and form their own group, and he was concerned about how well they might enforce the GI ban.
Shockingly, most of the young folk the JoongAng met on the street liked the ban. One 20-year-old dude said drunk GIs would sometimes curse at people and pick fights, and since nothing good comes of running into them, it was best to avoid them. A 20-year-old girl said after seeing the news about the GI assault on the girl student, she felt somewhat uncomfortable, and that since Hongdae was the only place people could go to listen to music and dance, it was best to keep the ban on.
Marmot’s Note: Somehow, I get the feeling this ban on good, hardworking foreigners won’t find itself before the National Human Rights Commission. And not to get into this again, but I think the clubs should be free to ban whoever they like, and you certainly won’t hear me defend loutish behavior from GIs, but if sexual crime is a concern, the GIs might be the least of your worries, judging by some of the headlines I’ve been seeing recently…
{ 50 comments… read them below or add one }
“A 20-year-old girl said after seeing the news about the GI assault on the girl student, she felt somewhat uncomfortable, and that since Hongdae was the only place people could go to listen to music and dance, it was best to keep the ban on.”
Typical xenophobia…fed and nurtured by a biased press. Two GIs alleged to have committed rape against Korean women in the entire year! But she’s not too concerned about rape or assault I bet, when she hears about that 57-year old man with a prior rape conviction who brutalized, beat and raped an 8-year old girl so badly that the girl needs a colostomy bag for life. He got 12 years because he was “drunk” when he did it. Word is starting to come out that the 18-year old consented tot he sex, but cried rape when she discovered the GI stole her laptop. Look it up, folks. Maybe it is true, maybe it isn’t, but it wouldn’t be the first time a woman cried rape to punish the guy…funny thing is…the press reports that there is video of him leaving her apartment…but says nothing of him entering the building alone…is it not possible he entered WITH her? Is there any statement to the contrary? If so, where is it? And if so, why hasn’t the press reported that??
Based on the other thread, the government should revoke the business licenses of those companies discriminating because of the wonderful services and infrastructure government provides them.
In my view, naturally, it is fine those clubs are split. This kind of issue can be resolved by citizens without the government getting involved one way or the other (I’m opposed to both mandatory segregation or mandatory association). This goes for the soldiers as well as the sauna owner. I would oppose the government punishing any of those Hongdae owners for discriminating against US soldiers, most of whom are peaceful, law-abiding citizens who are being blocked from clubs because of guilt through association.
#2,
Substitute “soldiers” and “US soldiers” with the name of any ethnic group in your comment…Yeah, not so witty anymore, is it?
SomeguyinKorea #3,okay. I did substitute the names of every ethnic, racial, gender, lifestyle and religious group I could think of–my point remains the same!
Here’s another quote by the head of the Club Culture Association:
“It’s commonplace for GIs to drink and get into fights in Hongdae, but there are many times when you can’t do anything, even with the police. In what country do US soldiers go around running wild like this?”
http://www.pressian.com/article/article.asp?article_num=30111010175658
adding to my own post #2, using the logic expressed to me on the other thread, not only should the government revoke the business licenses of Hongdae clubs with ‘No soldiers allowed signs’, but the US soldiers should stage an Occupy Hongdae protest (before the curfew, of course).
Every time i have been in Hongdae of an evening. I have been struck by the sheer numbers of drunks making more or less trouble, but always adding to the overall unpleasantnees. GIs are a miniscule drop in the flotsam and jetsam.
I suppose we could. But if you’ve got a link, feel free to share it.
I think we were talking about banning someone merely based on colour of there skin Naya. And taking license away wasn’t for a first instance but persistent refusal to cease denial of entry. i.e a last resort, not on first offence where a fine might be appropriate.
Arghaeri #9, got it. According to what Robert posted above, Hongdae clubs have banned soldiers since 2002. That would seem to be “persistent refusal to cease denial of entry.” So,
1) do you believe Hongdae clubs should be allowed by the government to choose their clientele?
2) do you believe Hongdae clubs should be allowed to single out US soldiers in particular by continuing to ban them in particular?
Bonus question!
3) If the Hongdae clubs continuing banning US soldiers, do you believe it would be proper for the government to suspend or revoke their business licenses?
I’ve caused a considerable amount of mischief in Hongdae and Itaewon and I’m no soldier. Singling out groups and punishing the entire lot of them is just retarded.
When this story originally broke the Chosun Daily reported on October 4 at http://newamericamedia.org/2011/10/american-gi-arrested-for-rape-in-s-korea.php :
“South Korean authorities are expected to take the 21-year-old private into custody, the report noted, adding there is a concern about flight risk. The American, identified as Private Jackson with the Second U.S. Infantry Division in Dongducheon, outside Seoul, is alleged to have tracked the victim to her room, where he repeatedly assaulted her over the course of some four hours. The suspect later claimed to have been drunk, insisting he could not recall what happened, though reports note that he knowingly sought out homes that housed young women. According to Yonhap News Agency, the suspect examined door fronts to see whether women’s shoes were present before trying the door.”
In the US Stars and Stripes recently at Stars and Stripes – http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/korea/u-s-soldier-in-s-korea-confesses-to-theft-not-rape-1.157700 :
Choi Jong-sang, chief of the Mapo police station’s detective division said, “we are still investigating this case and the investigation will be going on until next week,”…and also indicated that police have no plans to request custody of the Yongsan Garrison soldier.
Under the bilateral status of forces agreement (SOFA), South Korean officials may request custody of U.S. soldiers in criminal cases of “sufficient gravity,” including murder and rape. So, if he indeed raped her and terrorized her for four hours, as news reports indicated, why are there no plans to ask for custody? Hmmmmm
Korean papers and police at first said that a surveillance camera recorded the soldier breaking into the victim’s room about 4 a.m. Remember, the Chosun Daily claimed he was a predator who “tracked” her to her room. Now the police say he returned WITH the girl to her room. Originally, the police said the soldier was drunk and used scissors, a knife, a ballpoint pen, and a cigarette lighter in the attack, and that the victim was being treated in a hospital. The Chosun Daily said he repeatedly assaulted her over the course of some four hours.
But NOW, they aren’t even planning to seek custody???? COME ON! Something is fishy here.
To nayaCasey: You wrote –
1) do you believe Hongdae clubs should be allowed by the government to choose their clientele?
My answer: In a society where discrimination IS tolerated, then the answer to that question is yes. And we all know that Koreans are allowed to discriminate based on age and gender, so why not nationality too? After all, in Korean society, it is the entire group’s fault when one of its members causes problems. That was Korea’s apologetic mentality whena Korean-American committed mass murder at Virginia tech University a few years ago
2) do you believe Hongdae clubs should be allowed to single out US soldiers in particular by continuing to ban them in particular?
My answer – again, is a society where a person can have fewer rights than others based on his or her country of origin, or because one in a large group causes trouble – SURE, the clubs should be able to ban US soldiers. After all, with an incompetent police force to deal with the situation, the only way is to ban all US Soldiers. And then when a middle aged Korean man starts to cause problems, they will start banning all middle aged Korean men, right??
Bonus question!
3) If the Hongdae clubs continuing banning US soldiers, do you believe it would be proper for the government to suspend or revoke their business licenses?
Again – if the Hongdae clubs continue banning US soldiers, the government shouldn’t do anything. After all, in a country where it is common accepted practice to advertise for employees only below a certain age or of a certain gender – despite the fact that the job has nothing to do with age OR gender – why should the Korean government do anything to protect US soldiers from discrimination in a country that those very soldiers are here to protect in time of war?
wiessej #12, I agree with your conclusions: SURE, the clubs should be able to ban US soldiers.
“Again – if the Hongdae clubs continue banning US soldiers, the government shouldn’t do anything.
Here’s a common sense question for the crowd:
Can someone tell me how these clubs determine that a potential patron is a GI? After all, if a GI wants to come in, he sure as hell isn’t going to produce his US military ID as proof of age. It is EXTREMELY simple for an American with a valid US drivers license to get a Korean drivers license. I know, because I have one. And there is NO nationality listed on my Korean drivers license. So, if I was a GI (and I used to be), I could walk up to one of those bars, claim I am Canadian (I am Caucasian), show my Korean drivers license, and walk right in….unless these bars are all turning away anyone resembling a GI (American-looking with a short haircut). I kind of doubt that. There are lots of Irish, English, Canadian, Australian, etc. ESL teachers in Korea, and I can imitate most of those accents well enough to fool probably the vast majority of Korean bartenders/bouncers, etc. But then again, if I was an Asian American GI, they probably wouldn’t even bat an eye.
I am thinking that many of these clubs are merely putting a cosmetic band-aid on a problem that has little basis in reality, so that they can appear to maintain a sense of solidarity. But even THAT isn’t working when some clubs that are members of the association are openly allowing GIs.
This seems like a mere paper tiger – but it is quite typical of Koreans, I think. To roar and make believe there is some bite behind it. Happens all the time with North Korea-South Korea relations.
To nayaCasey – if you want to quote my response and keep it honest and in context, please quote it all. To do otherwise is simply dishonest.
wiessej — Indeed, something IS fishy. Namely, you’re confusing two separate cases, the assault in Dongducheon and the assault in Mapo, Seoul.
In the Dongducheon case, USFK turned over the perp, who was detained after the indictment:
http://news.donga.com/3/all/20111007/40900364/1
It took 12 days from the time of the incident to get an indictment, which was quite quick.
As for the Mapo case, even I have my doubts, but the police are still investigating.
wiessej #15, oh, okay, will try to remember that in the future.
wiessej, did some korean give you a fork instead of chopsticks? you are a real piece of work, dude. lighten up. anway, i hope the ban only extends to wae a in.
To Robert Koehler –
I humbly stand corrected. The similarities between the two alleged perpetrators (both 21), rank (both Army privates), the crime scenes (both rented apartments), the ages of the victims (both 18) and the fact that the chronologically first incident was the second one that came to light all caused me to confuse the two events. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Clarification: September 17 incident – a 21-year old US Army soldier stationed at Yongsan allegedly raped a girl in her rented room in Mapo near central Seoul. He had taken the girl home early that same morning about 4:17am after they were drinking together overnight with two others, including one fellow soldier. He allegedly left, then returned at about 5:45 am, broke into her room, raped her and left with her laptop. He admitted taking the laptop, but claims, the the sex was consensual. Video recorded him leaving with the laptop. This soldier is not in Korean custody, and it about this case that the chief of Mapo police department detective division says there are no plans to request custody of the soldier. He could be guilty as sin, too…but more to follow. I certainly would like to see the video of him returning to see if there is any sneaky quality to it. Would also like to know what the lag time between the alleged crime and its reporting to police was. If the sex WAS consensual – BAD move to steal the laptop – hell hath no fury like a Korean woman whose techno gadget has been pilfered.
Clarification: September 24 incident – A 21-year old US Army Private stationed in Dongducheon (Camp Casey) is accused of raping an 18-year old Korean girl. This is the incident for which the highest level US authorities have offered an apology. The soldier allegedly entered her goshihotel room and raped her. He also used scissors and a knife in the attack. He has confessed to that incident. Although he claims he was intoxicated, that is no defense for his actions. He was turned over to Korean authorities on October 13.
Again, thanks for the compass correction.
To #19 – I apologize for using more than fragmentary sentences, and for not exhibiting grossly poor spelling and grammar. For your benefit, I will try to be more infantile in my spelling, punctuation, grammar and content. Will that do? FYI, can you explain what you meant by “anway, i hope the ban only extends to wae a in.” What is “wae a in.”?
I wonder why those night clubs aren’t banning gangsters (you know, the ones responsible for many of the rapes and murders committed in South Korea).
@15
I have a white friend who has very short hair, but is European. He’s been banned entry to clubs in 홍대 out of suspicion he was a soldier. At the time, he didn’t have an ARC, but his PASSPORT wasn’t enough to convince the bouncer he wasn’t a pesky American soldier.
@19 lolz
Apparently you don’t, US Army are not citizens of Korea, and they are not being barred solely on the basis of being the wrong colour or even of just being foreign as othrr foreigner are permitted, me for instance.
Hence there case is more complicated, mord akin to barring punks or rockers from a bar.
However, given the actual amount of trouble they cause, then statistically no i don’t thonk there is any substantive grounds to ban them.
Onthe other hand, its a bit of a difficult case to make when their own government doesn’t trust them to be out unsupervised.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the entire Hongdae/Sinchon area declared “off limits” by USFK anyway? If so, what are GI’s doing there?
As I recall, part of the problem is that USFK doesn’t have a community policing agreement with the police of Mapo-gu in the same way as it does with Yongsan-gu, so it cannot regulate curfew violations or other behavioral problems.
When subway line 6 opened up, Hongdae became more accessible to USFK GIs, leading some Koreans to refer to Hongdae as “Hongtaewon.”
nayaCasey: nice sarcasm there.
Good enough to lay down their lives again for your miserable fucking country, but not good enough to enjoy your hospitality?
Hongdae is crap anyway, they’re not missing much not being allowed in. I only go there for the occasional gig as I live nearby. Hongdae can attract some violent arseholes at times, though the only major trouble I’ve seen there was caused by Koreans.
I’ve seen Korean guys beating up girlfriends, I’ve seen drunken Korean students having fisticuffs on at 8 o’clock in the morning on my way to work, I’ve seen Korean punks fighting in the park. I’m not saying it never happens, but I’ve personally never seen American soldiers get into a fight in Hongdae. I’ve seen them acting like dicks for sure, but I’ve never seen violence.
The silly young lady saying she’s afraid of being raped by soldiers is an idiot, it’s a pretty rare crime thankfully. Many of the creepy Korean ajeoshi types (we all know the sort) get up to mischief all the time, I guess she’s not concerned about them as they’re not foreigners, so they probably don’t have AIDS.
It’s just more xenophobic rabble rousing by the Korean gutter press. I saw a story earlier that was quoting some retard politician saying that many English teachers are using drugs and spreading diseases. If it isn’t Dokdo or some other nonsense with the Japanese, GIs and English teachers are right up their on the list that some idiots love to hate, even though the vast majority of people in those groups behave far, far better than the natives. They haven’t got the balls to complain so vocally about Chinese revisionist history and their psychotic brethren up north which are far more serious issues than Dokdo, or a few GI’s and English teachers occasionally getting up to no good. It’s pretty pathetic really.
Hamel, thanks for the tour guide, nice of USFK to publish all thd best places to go
Yeah, there’s that aspect to it, too. Well, minus the “miserable” and “fucking” part, anyway.
Sorry Robert, eight beers downed in quick succession this afternoon post a fly-in visit from the COO from Hong Kong, a 4 a.m. start and a needless trip to the bank to deal with a dunderheaded lackwit makes one a bit tetchy. Allow me to substitute “miserable fucking country” for “irrelevant cunt of a place full of ignorant hick bigots that have abused the well-intentioned policies of the west while reciprocating with policies that could only ever be borne of a race completely devoid of basic humanity”.
#30 In China expats talk of BCD (Bad China Day), could you possibly be suffering from a BKD? Perhaps that and being slightly two sheets to the wind in charge of a keyboard?
Since he’s in indonesia that would be a BID day
With all due respect, fuck you.
The west isn’t any better when it comes to ignorance but Korea really takes it to another level, I’ve been thinking of staying in Korea as an expat sometime in 2013 so I’ve been visiting this website, hopefully things will improve by then but I think I might just go Taiwan instead.
#30,
For sheer vituperative invective in a description, the award must, if anything is right in the universe, go to you, my saronged colleague.
@ 11 “I’ve caused a considerable amount of mischief in Hongdae and Itaewon and I’m no soldier. Singling out groups and punishing the entire lot of them is just retarded.”
What is retarded is admitting to being a wanker that is part of the problem. You ruin the expat experience for everyone that just wants to make a living or serve their country. Let me guess….. English teacher?
I love the venoms. Really love it.
There was a point in time when I actually loved opening this web site up everyday to see what was going on. Not anymore. It’s the same old same old s*it. It’s now boring and unsurprising, and my visits here have dwindled. I now have better things to do than to wallow in misery.
aaronm,
Are you related to Paul Keating? He’d be proud.
This is so not news-worthy; the Joongang should quit dredging for turds.
I’ve seen plenty of natives sleeping off their drunken stupor on the sidewalks there but never any military guys.
@35 Oh, holier than thou, Sanctimonious much?
I give credit to those such as #11 who have the integrity to admit their actions haven’t always been above reproach. You’ve been on the peninsula too long if you somehow believe it’s more virtuous to carry on like a sanctimonious tossbag who’s never done wrong than to be completely honest and admit there have been times you may not have been a saint.
I worked in South Korea for seven years as an English teacher (gasp, horror). I drank socially, met friends and very occasionally I carried on in a manner my sober self would despise. I learnt from those rare experiences and did my utmost not to replicate them. But, what do you know? In my outings, I’d also encounter many Koreans letting out steam and sometimes going too far. I didn’t tar and feather the whole nation for the acts of a few in drunken stupor.
Let me guess …. prat?
To Keith –
Your post was pretty much spot-on, albeit politically incorrect in its bluntness. In all honesty, we must remember that well into the 20th century, this wonderful country was still very backwoods in most places. In so many many ways, Korea and Korean society are still maturing. This is the country of “fan death”. They have been taught to believe that only Westerners carry HIV. So, it is only logical that they will believe that the American horde is here to rape and pillage. Do not rely on a Western view of common sense – it just ain’t so common here. Koreans will hate Japan forever for an occupation that was relatively (I say RELATIVELY) unhostile toward the Korean people as a whole, while sipping lattes and tuning into the Asian Games in response to North Korea’s shelling of YP-do last November. They say they are banning GIs, but probably the only way to do so with ANY measure of effectiveness is to ban ALL Western-looking men with short hair – Canadians, Irish, English, German, Australian, etc. So, basically, racial discrimination is the only way to come close. But let’s remember, if the person looks Asian (and let me tell you, I know a LOT of Asian-American GIs), they will probably walk right in unmollested. This type of discrimination is just totally idiotic, and anyone imposing it is devoid of common sense – but again, this is still a developing country. You wouldn’t expect your pre-schooler to excel at long division, so lower your expectations of Korean Society a bit and you will not be so disappointed in it all. It would benefit you to remember South Korea’s unofficial nickname – “The Land of the Not-Quite-Right”. If you keep that in mind, you will grow to love Korea, as I have.
To weeze-jay (#41):
‘Sup dude? How’s Na Choi? Actually, nevermind. Lets get right to it, shall we? Don’t worry, it won’t take up too much of your precious time. Not really all that much to address to be honest. Really ain’t all that much there. Here we go:
I guess self-reflection isn’t a forte of yours. Do you have any fortes besides that wheezing whine of yours? Anyways, whatever the case, it’s pretty rich of you to say keef was being “politically incorrect” in his “bluntness” (more like vapidness) given the main body of your own “remarks.” Actually, strach all that. I’m afraid you’re not even at keef’s level. You were neither “politically incorrect” or “blunt.” Just hysterical I’m afraid.
That’s actually really, really, really, really, really GREAT advice weeze-jay. I’ll be sure to apply that bit of “wisdom” right back to you: lower expectations so as not to be disappointed. Thanks, dude.
Alright, you’re free to go enjoy recess.
cm — Do me a favor and shoot me an email address I can reach you at.
cm becoming a guest blogger? That might be quite interesting.
This posting reminded me of the Blackout Korea website. Strangely, I can’t get it to load in my browser. Safari says “cancelled opening page” and Firefox stops loading. It made me wonder whether my ISP has blacklisted the site.
Any readers know what the problem is and how to get around it?
#45,
I checked and apparently it’s limited to 100 views per day. I also found that they have a Facebook page. You might want to send them a message that way. I’m sure they’ll be happy to explain what’s going on.
Thanks. Wonder why such a limit. It’s hardly bandwidth intensive …
Remember the Virginia Tech Massacre by the Korean Seung-Hui Cho? I don’t recall any clubs in the area banning Koreans after he killed 32 people.
Korea = Hub of Xenophobia & Sensationalism! Truly Sparkling!
^ You can always make visit massage parlor or brothel if you wish, Hongdae is mostly for uni students.
Korea should have clubs specially for foreigners, I really don’t like Koreans mixing with foreigners, both troublemakers should stay out each other.
^ Sentry, if you’re so against Koreans mingling with foreigners perhaps it’s time you practice what you preach and return to the motherland.
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