According to the Herald Gyeongje, “Mr. H,” the apparent assailant in this video, told police he felt like the victim was disparaging his race:
During police questioning, Mr. H said, “I felt offended when the man in the seat said ‘Shut up,’ and while I couldn’t understand the Korean that followed, I felt he was disparaging black people.”
He also reportedly said he was wrong and wants to apologize.
Police have decided to recommend to prosecutors he be indicted without detention.
I still hope he’s deported.
{ 275 comments… read them below or add one }
fine him for assault-then kick him out. simple.
Although I had absolutely no information which would support my thesis, my feeling was that these Koreans were disparaging black people. So I belted ‘em.
If he was too stupid not to do a runner as soon as he found out he was on a viral video it’s hard to feel too much sympathy for him. Fined & deported would work most easily.
no, don’t kick him out. the man’s sensitive to racial slight and lost his cool with a perception. he says he knows he was wrong and wants to apologize. if the ajoshi is willing to accept, that should be that.
As always, there is probably more to the story than we saw in the video and have heard in the press. The main point to any of this guy’s (few) defenders, though (such as Metropolitician) is that really nothing else matters. The old man could have been screaming racial insults in perfect English at the top of his lungs, completely unprovoked as this young man sat quietly. Even if this was the case, he made the choice to take it to the next level. He threw the punch, he grabbed the woman, he committed the more serious crime. If he was so sure that racial insults had been thrown, he could have done his best to calmly record the incident and follow suit from Prof. Hussein and have the man fined and sued.
I know everyone makes mistakes and he shouldn’t be crucified for this one, but yes he should likely be fired and leave the country. Additionally, he should really consider what the repercussions are not only on himself, but on the views many Koreans will have of foreigners, especially those of color.
#5, very well put. People with serious mental health problems who have a tendency to unleash are also more likely to do it on foreigners than Koreans. What if a nutcase who thinks Mr H is about to self-explode starts screaming at everyone to get off the bus, pointing to Mr H and calling him terrible words? So Mr H grabs him by the neck and the nut case takes it a notch higher, fighting back for all he’s worth. Then Mr H KOs him and leaves him with injuries, when Mr H could have just laughed it all off. I’ve had a nut case start yelling at me on the subway, including the swear words. I just got off at the next stop and went two cars down. No problem. A Korean even whispered over to me ‘I am sorry. He is crazy’.
Pawi, twice in one day, but I have to agree with you again. Whole heartily.
“the man’s sensitive to racial slight and lost his cool with a perception.”
I’ve disengaged this moron for some time but after Japonymous’ comment I went back to take a look. One word: empathy.
He will be fined some millions of KRW.
As a Korean I also hope Koreans use some polite terms such as “please”. I see many Koreans use rude English phrases when they talk to foreign strangers. “come here”, “eat this”, “shut up” etc. They don’t even know these terms are rude.
There are so many troubles happened for this. Especially when talking to black people. I think English textbooks in Korea should cover language etiquette more.
Oh God i hate the victimization feelings certain minority specimens harbor…basically you cannot tell a black/arab/latino/purple/jupiterian/whatever person to fuck off and die without having him/her accusing you of being racist.
Nothing can justify this dirtbag’s actions. He’s falling back on the old dependable race card to get himself off the hook. Too obvious and too pathetic.
YB@10- As a proud Purple Jupiterean (we prefer “Zeuser”) I am offended by your statement.
Hamel,
My point about the ‘please shut up’ was that it combines the word used to make a polite request with a hostile imperative and is therefore a, um, contradiction in terms.
And I know I just made up the term ‘hostile imperative.’ I think it’s fun to screw around with English. The Koreans taught me how.
I am shocked! Pawi! This foreign devil is taking your Korean girls and defiling them and beating up your Korean grandparents.
Don’t you want to crucify him? – or is that only for “white guys”?
@4
OMG, I agree with Pawi
* There’s no place like home. Some people never should have left.
* I am sure that more than 33% of Koreans would come out to vote to have the bus bully deported.
* Metropolitician’s analysis was shameful, but proof once again that being outrageous can be newsworthy.
Really? There doesn’t seem to be. All I see is a guy who over-reacted with no evidence at all to support his behaviour, which we pretty much all thought before. The only new thing is that the guy wants to apologize, but it’s hardly some kind of killer key information.
BTW, don’t most city buses have at least one CCTV camera? It would be interesting to see the footage from that.
No mention of his apologies toward the woman he threw a punch at? Screw him. He needs to be under the next bus.
Sounds like a well-balanced guy….living with a chip on both shoulders
At least if he went back to the States he would be eligible for a job
#17 not only was it shameful, he’s intentionally not approving posts that contradict his narrative. The guy has got about zero credibility on anything as far as I’m concerned. These kinds of people often do far more damage to the situation and I’ve got very little sympathy for any hardships they’d suffer as a result.
“Pawi” does make sense; his reasoning is rather Korean as well and that’s fine with me.
Anger and hate takes so much energy anyhow.
@21, Haven’t you heard? There are no jobs in the United States.
Take away the race of the men involved, and this stuff would be just another incident involving Koreans on camera. Remember the incident of young girl speaking banmal to a grandmother who beat the girl up on camera? Also the incident where a mother of a young child beat up a grandma who wanted to touch the child because she found the child cute. Bad stuff happen to all races, but as soon as it happens, the first reaction we get is “it’s because of racism”. I don’t know if the Korean said “shut up” because the foreigner was black (only the Korean man can answer what was he thinking when he said that – he probably was thinking it), but I see no evidence that the Korean man yelled aloud racist names at the attacker.
I fault 20% wrong on the Korean man for being rude, and 80% wrong for the other guy. The other guy apologized, so I think it’d be too harsh to deport him and make him lose his job. I think he’s already dealt enough punishment already.
fanwarrior writes:
Sure. True enough. But give credit where credit is due, the schlub has some hot chicks commenting on his blog (see comment #37 by a one “Mina Lee”).
Obviously this guy lives a miserable life in Korea, i don’t understand why he would wanna keep residing in a country where he’s so downtrodden, ship him back to whatever ghetto-ass turf he’s from, the satisfaction will be mutual
Tilly dude chill out i understand it’s still summertime but Christ you’re more obsessed with chicks than i am with plotting shit to make my neighbours life an ignominious misery
talk is cheap.
and all is forgiven?
i’m not part of the lynch-mob, but.. no jail? (a bit much). no sentencing? (thought this would be a given. since it could be a precursor for future… play-time activities between foreigners and koreans). no deportation? (especially since he’s a respectable english teacher).
i believe that race-baiting language wasn’t involved, mistakenly or not. although it says ‘he felt that he was being disparaged based on his race’. puh-leaze… but, that’s a nice cop-out. since koreans and blacks don’t have the best perceptions of each other…
# 9 JLEE,
“He will be fined some millions of KRW.”
If he’s fined only 1 million Won he’ll be able to stay in country, if he’s fined more I think he’ll have to go.
I was gambling in Seoul one time at a busy table, a Korean approaches who wants to play, his buddy tells(DOESN’T ASK) me to “MOVE!” I said F*** You! Security was called and they treated me as the guilty party. I walked out of a place that I thought was for foreigners but seems to be for Koreans, whoever pays off the establishment to get them in as a “foreigner.” At that time you had to stand at tables, now they have installed seats so Koreans can’t pull that shyte no more.
How do you know he will be fined? It seemed like he won’t…
I suppose his lawyer did a brilliant job. Giving him advice to say he was at-fault, and willing to apologize. (That surely won’t change his personal opinion, or others…) but that’s a good face-saving technique! And it seems like it’ll save him… deportation, money, sentencing, etc.
And what credit should be given there?
Is she really that much more attractive than girls you can see on a daily basis? Not really based on years of Seoul subway riding. And did you bother to even read what she wrote or were you just blinded by a hot pair that could speak english?
She’s still trying to push the “Andre Fisher” was set-up, when at this point it’s extremely clear that he wasn’t, especially after the last bit of evidence came out about him having the cabbies money clip on him.
I don’t exactly know what kind of credit should be given for being able to attract vapid air-heads that managed to stick to a diet to your blog.. but yeah.. I guess him that.
Good question. But she looked good enough.
1) No.
2) Yes, I freely admit it (!)
Fine. Can you at least lighten up though?
Ohboy—Given that the police have only just decided to turn the case over to the prosecutors with a recommendation that they indict him, it’s too early to tell what kind of punishment he will suffer, if any.
Really? I don’t know, the two available pictures don’t really show her face that well at all, and all we can see is a rack that, on a Korean girl, is probably not her own.
No promises, but its on my list.
# 34,
That’s what you get for hoping, I think you’d be better off at sticking to stereotyping Americans, especially the elderly.
Curious about people’s opinions on what the guy could or should do at this point to try to makes things right or at least better. Especially interested to hear what Korean commenters would advise.
#37, just issue an apology to the man and the woman, and let’s get on with life. And next time, check his temper.
This violent criminal should be fined/jailed and then deported. Koreans have no real use for Ebonics.
It’s interesting that noone seems to feel any blame rests on the old Korean guy. All too typical.
1) He STARTED the conflict
2) Anyone in the world, being told loudly by anyone else in the world, to shut up, is likely to react badly. Violence wasn’t called for, but the Korean guy has to accept some blame in this conflict. Because it happened in Korea, and your average Korean has racial blinders the size of a barn on, this will never happen.
there’s no excuse for the assault. i only wish haraboji would have taken him down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J–C4uwYOE0&feature=player_embedded
“It’s interesting that noone seems to feel any blame rests on the old Korean guy.”
Read my post #25.
@40, somebody tells you to sit down and shut up and you feel free to threaten old people and hit a woman? Where you from?
I think to find out who the real racists are just read these forums and see who uses the comment : ” deport him” – I mean really? Yes, jail, a fine whatever Korean justice entails but deportation – SPEAKS VOLUMES.
Not to defend the jerk’s actions, but I remember going through a brief period in my first year in Korea, when I imagined every slight and mistreatment I received was racially motivated (and I’m not black). It wasn’t until later that I came to see that the racist assholes I encountered were, in fact, probably just assholes.
Really Drifter? Because if he were white then I’d really be even more keen on him being deported. At least we can sympathize that he may have become paranoid. The problem is the violence. Did you see the video? He almost seems to take pleasure in it. And this guy is supposed to be teaching kids, by the way? This was not some bar fight. He wantonly pounded on essentially defenseless people in crowded pi bbl oc transportation
He should either go back to the USA sign on with a name like “naegamol” and post bitter acrid comments about Korea on Marmots Hole.
Or he could go to Japan and start a blog musing why people are so much more civilized there and still comment on the Marmots Hole.
Once was time when people of the chocolate face had to go to back of bus. ‘dems were dee days.
No chocolate face race think-eeee only dis:
A video of a black man doing something wrong is always a nice catalyst that makes the garbages of humanity float to the top.
#43
How does it speak volumes? Unless he’s an F-visa, that’s what they’re supposed to do. Generally if you’re convicted of a crime while as a tourist, or on an E, C, D visa, you’re given your papers and sent packing.
With a few very serious crimes I believe they’ll hold you in Korea for awhile , and then deport you.
Assault is a crime and if he’s convicted of it, he should be deported.
Compose a letter of apology in Korean. Kneel before the old man, and read the letter out loud. Then bow.
Agree with TK: the guy has a chance to create an awesomely theatrical healing moment, the video of which will no doubt go just as viral. The old guy would probably apologize for saying “shut up” as well. Then the prosecutor would probably drop the case. Get on it, Mr. H, with the 잘못했습니다. You’ll find Koreans are an very forgiving people.
@40
See my post at 5. It doesn’t matter what the old man did, Mr. H took it to the next level and he has to face the consequences. He had other options, instead in reacted violently to what he believed he was hearing.
@43
So deportation is worse than going to jail in your opinion? As said above MOST crimes involving foreigners on E visas result in loss of visa (meaning get out). I don’t want him to spend any jail time over this, but I’m not sure if he should stay.
@50
If Mr. H genuinely wants to stay in Korea, managed to adequately pull off your suggestion (likely with a lot of help) and the old man accepted it, then yes bygones should be bygones and no other punishment would be needed. (I hate to see what the racist claimers would have to say about making him kneel though)
Someone start a “Black Guy On Bus” blog.
There have been at least 120 articles or broadcasts about this story, with there being several dozen about the initial discovery of the video and the netizen response, 60+ articles about him being booked (and his nationality and job), a dozen or more subsequent articles speculating about the ‘니가 effect.’ The number of stories/broadcasts about his side of the story, his admission of being wrong and wanting to apologize? Eight.
I guess the media suddenly became tired of the story?
One wonders if this story of athletes from an African country molesting a Korean university student volunteer in Daegu will take off in its place…
http://news.donga.com/3/all/20110831/39940125/1
Apparently their arms brushed her chest while trying to greet her in their country’s manner.
That’s not good news. It’s the same around the world. The story is the scandal. If it turns out not to be true, or not drama-inducing enough, they pretend it didn’t happen and move on.
Just a note to those who think that asking people to use this incident to think about the fact that 1) it’s fodder for existing pre-conceptions of and negative representations of foreigners/English teachers/blacks and 2) in the everyday reality of foreigner/Korean older man contact, this case is not representative, when in fact, the opposite situation of foreigners being harrassed by drunk older men IS — this does not constitute “defending his actions.”
Seems to me that certain idiots on the Hole are so eager to fit my writings and everything I say into a set narrative that their reading comprehension skills are affected. I just went on TBS eFM with Robert and said the same thing I said on the blog, and felt quite positive about a section of that blog post being used in the KBS report to point out another aspect of reality here, while pointing out the utility of this incident as a “teaching moment” to understand that this incident, despite its sensationalistic value, isn’t indicative of the pattern it might seem to point to.
In other words, to break it down for some of you here who seem a bit on the slow side — Why aren’t Koreans breaking out their cell phone cameras every time some drunk older Korean man calls me 깜둥이 on the subway, told me and my Japanese tourist friend on the bus to “Shut up” on her last trip here, or when two ajussis actually physically assaulted my two female Korean friends visiting in from the States when we took the subway to her Korean corporate headquarters (I put one of their pictures up on my blog), or when MissCoco, a black former foreign blogger here in Korea, was beaten down and kicked in the middle of the main strip in Hyehwa by a Korean man, which was the reason she left Korea? The urge to flip out camera phones doesn’t seem to strike when a drunk ajussi flipped out on me in Seoul Station and came at me, yelling and screaming to “get out of Korea” and calling me a “nigger” in Korean because I was taking too long to figure out which Daejeon stop I needed to get off on, right in front of the security guard, who, instead of arresting this guy or even saying anything to him, simply smiled and apologized meekly, came over to me, and said I should just get on the train?
THAT was pretty spectacular. And it’s far, far more representative of any confrontational encounters between foreigners and Koreans, in my experience and observation. And what I’ve been saying is that it wasn’t like this longer ago, when I knew less Korean and less about this place, when I was a bumbling newbie in the 1990′s. I am simply asking these questions:
- Why does it seem worse now?
- Why has the media never reported on the pattern of confrontational encounters, which generally go the other way?
- Why did this particular incident go from being filmed, from cellphone to YouTube, to national scandal?
These are reasonable and useful questions to bring up, and the advent of this scandal offers itself as a perfect moment to enter into a more constructive conversation about it.
Most commenters here would rather sit here in the communal knitting circle TSK-TSKing about the incident, moralizing, grandstanding and gossiping the details into meaninglessness. Oh, and setting me up as the stupid straw man who “defends” the kid.
Whatever bullshit you say about me, at least I’m actually participating in the national conversation and trying to flesh out some deeper issues here. At least I’m not a bunch of biddies going back and forth on issues no one actually disagrees on, like a bunch of septuagenarians on Wednesday Bingo Night.
And with that said, gentlemen — flame away!
P.S. If you’d like to flame over at my blog and increase my traffic even further, here you go:
http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2011/08/when-the-nigger-starts-to-win.html
Thanks!
#54,
“Apparently their arms brushed her chest while trying to greet her in their country’s manner.”
And they put their cheeks together to kiss the girl on her mouth, in their country’s manner of greeting. The sexual charges were dropped after that was explained. Nothing to see here, moving along.
Can’t we all get along?^^
Apparently the parents of the bus bully didn’t teach him or he didn’t learn the lesson that it is okay to ignore other people who may be rude or impolite. In both America and Korea, I’ve had my share of encounters with idiots, nuts, drunken people. I can’t remember getting so upset about someone I don’t know or respect–one particular incident I recall was in Massachusetts when some whites yelled “niggers” from a passing car–we weren’t exactly sure if they had shouted “niggers” or “we’re getting nearer. Yes, we debated it for quite a while before we concluded it didn’t matter, and resumed having fun.
In the end, does it matter what some yee-haws yell from a passing car, what a drunk thinks about you, or what some old guy on the subway says?
Anyway, I missed another chance to be famous. On Monday, I had a Korean guy tap me on my knee and motion for me to be quiet as I answered a call from a friend. I just moved away from the old guy. Instead, using the tactics of the bus bully or the fighting fantasies of Metropolitician, I should have bopped the guy on the head and waited for the police and reporters show up.
Having said that, we don’t get do-overs, the bus bully should be punished as anyone else would be punished for getting physical with others, as both punishment for him and as a warning to other paranoid people.
So funny! You Koreans deserve to have your asses chewed out. You speak of such hypocrisy! When you come to Los Angeles and Tokyo you speak that horrible language of yours and you spit in public. Some of the nastiest people I have ever seen. Yet, you have the audacity to tell people to lower their voices if they are speaking in another LANGUAGE!!??? Like you would do the same in our country. Your people are so rude and disrespectful to Americans and speak loudly in that god awful Hangul!
we dont want him bro. send him to liberia.
Metropolitician, as I said on your site, I recognize the Chris Rock-like “I don’t defend it, but I understand” as a black man analysis. I don’t know much about you but it seems that you are approaching this as a sociologist or psychologist trying to look at the bigger picture.
One of the points Nathan Glazer made in his book “We are all Multiculturalists now” is that people will argue about the truth, claim they are the keepers of the truth, when they are just looking at different parts of it. I don’t have a copy of the book with me now, but as I recall, he cited examples such as battles over curriculum and history. Some folks will want to highlight the successes of the country, while some others will want to highlight contradictions and previous oppression. They are both speaking the “truth” and will talk past one another.
Or as Jesse Jackson has said: “I don’t want to talk about crime in the streets. I want to talk about crime in the suites.” On another occasion: “Content without context is just pretext.”
So while some are focusing on the actions of the bus bully, you are shining the light on Koreans, which stories they focus on, root causes. I’m not saying there isn’t a time and place for your point and analysis, but this is why experts and expert-wannabes get ignored or laughed at in so many conversations. A guy gets physical on a bus–and you want to talk about the Korean media and stereotypes. That’s even as the guy is living down to the stereotypes and being a public menace. The problem isn’t people wanting something to be done about the guy, but rather, his uncouth behavior.
And about the response—or lack thereof—from the fellow passengers:
http://www.fnnews.com/view_news/2011/08/30/110830182344.html
#63, Korea really needs badly to pass a self defense law to protect people who help other people. Who is going to get involved if there’s a chance they’ll be prosecuted if they make a wrong move?
@Metro
I will apologize for counting you as a defender of Mr. H as I can see how your piece could be intended to add further context and experience to the discussion. That said, I don’t get how you can say you understand his actions. This is because, despite the things that have happened to you (which as you describe seem infinitely worse than what happened in this case), you never responded with violence. To me, it seems you understand that violent reaction just plays into the preconceived notions some (I won’t say many) Koreans have of foreigners here, especially non-whites. As much as I may disagree with your writings, I commend you for expressing your frustrations with words rather than physical action, as physical action (as committed by Mr. H) hurts the image of all foreigners here and I do believe you are attempting to further the cause of minorities in Korea, which this incident has hurt. As to your questions, I believe you really do know the answers:
- Why does it seem worse now?
1. There are more foreigners, so incidents (although still a small number) will increase as well. 2. With your increased understanding of Korean and stronger connection to the media over the years, you are more likely to notice when these happen to you or others. 3. Given your personal feelings on the subject you are more likely to look for incidents that support your agenda.
- Why has the media never reported on the pattern of confrontational encounters, which generally go the other way?
Because drunken ajjoushis yell at and bother everybody. Just last night at my wife’s school dinner (all Koreans) the school security guard got drunk, started screaming and flipped over a table full of food and drink. It may be a poor point of Korean society, but typically such cases are simply forgotten and everyone moves along. For a strictly drunken Korean vs. foreigner on a bus counterpoint, look to the Prf. Hussien story, which got media attention as he took action, but it was proper action.
- Why did this particular incident go from being filmed, from cellphone to YouTube, to national scandal?
Because it has become a fact of modern media, not just in Korea but it is especially popular here now given the recent banmal videos and other incidents. For the cellphone video maker, they see easy video hits, for the mass media they see an easy story that will rial up the netizens and give them lots of page views.
In the end, you can certainly find plenty of deeper issues that can be brought up by this event, but none of that should gloss over the initial catalyst of Mr. H making an incredibly poor decision that he will have to answer for.
Robert, here’s my guess. Those Korean guys didn’t do anything because no one ORDERED them to do anything. The old guy should have called them out, to protect the honor of Korea or whatever. The old guy did show some fight in him when the bus bully hit the short chick in the chest, but he was also very happy to have someone restrain him (probably, with a pinkie).^^
The by-standers….They aren’t all old men, they appear to be old enough to still be able to wrestle and healthy enough to have served in the military. So I assume they have some fighting skills. They certainly could have escalated it by having five of them jump the guy, but I guess they figured it wasn’t their fight and perhaps they have been on the receiving end of such statements from old Korean men so they may not have been sympathetic.
Still, the happy ending to that bus ride would have been the bus bully having his dreadlocks pulled by three different people while others attacked his face and others held onto his arms and others beating him until the bus arrived at the police station. I’m a peaceful man, really, but I do believe in overwhelming force to stop violence.
And that lady screaming at the bus bully…she could have easily moved out of the way, but she remained in the middle.
I’m not posting this to increase hits, but just in case anyone wonders what I would do when faced with someone violent.
http://caseylartigue.blogspot.com/2004/08/memories-of-mayflower-avery-tooley.html
Having said that: it isn’t a bad idea to focus on the by-standers, but the focus is still the bus bully escalating things and later it may turn out that the old guy really said something to set him off.
Metro, how many of those assholes you described are teachers responsible for children, sometimes very young children, all day long? How many of them are language teachers who are unable to speak in any kind of civilised, intelligent manner in any language? I’ll bet that most of them were unemployed losers, and I sure hope that Mr H joins their ranks very soon if he hasn’t already.
@Metropolitician, I completely understand “Mr. H” as well. Completely understand it, because I HAVE actually almost flipped out (not here in Korea or abroad, and I luckily never actually went into violence mode due to racism). But I can place myself in his shoes very easily. I can’t condone violence, but I can so easily see how, given the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) circumstances, I myself could snap. I’m a person of color here who gets it. Hell, I’m a *person* who gets it.
As far as your questions: “- Why does it seem worse now?
- Why has the media never reported on the pattern of confrontational encounters, which generally go the other way?
- Why did this particular incident go from being filmed, from cellphone to YouTube, to national scandal?”
I’d be interested if people would actually be able to confront/acknowledge/answer those questions.
#66, Robert’s link explains it: it’s always a dicey situation in Korea, whether to get involved during third party scuffles. If something goes wrong, you’ll be held liable, and according to someone in that video, he had recently gotten punished by the law, for getting involved. But remember, this video is only 2 minutes out of 20 minute scuffle. Few of the male passengers managed to pull the guy off of the old man, so it’s not really true they did nothing and just watched.
“How many of them are language teachers who are unable to speak in any kind of civilised, intelligent manner in any language?”
You don’t think “you see these rocks?” are civilized and intelligent language?
Good discussion here, as usual. Sure are some colorful…ah…generalizations else-web, though…
I dun understand what is the problem.
The old ajoshi got what he deserved. Many old people in korea are rude and think they can do whatever they want because they earned the right through a life of hardships…. Common guys this is only country in the world i know where you learn to be unpolite when aging…..
Instead of sending away the black man they should send the ajoshi to concentration camp in north korea he wont see any black man disturbing “HIS” bus then he can try saying shut up to a soldier there see what will happen.
If you dont respect people then u get what u deserve. Law is made in a wrong way. Even i would have hit him.
When it’s all said and done, all Korea Inc will do is enforce the same old, tired double standard. An Ajossi can yell in to a cell phone in a restaurant, or on a subway, and no old geezer is gonna tell him to shut up. I’ve seen it a hundred times. And I really do mean A. Hundred. Times.
You Korean apologists can bullshit me , or those like me who have long experience in your country, you see. Your country is so blinded by its knee jerk racism that you can’t see it glowing like a 150 watt bulb right under your nose.
So, you’ll likely put a black man in jail or deport him, and the cranky old fucker who STARTED it will face no consequences. And make no mistake, it’s gonna be because he’s Korean. Viva la Hanguk!! Long live the tribe! I hope and pray your small minded tribal racism continues to bite you right square in the ass for a long time to come, and oh, good luck with that tourism drive you pathetic pieces of shit. If I sound like I hate you, it’s because I do.
What is it with Metro? Does he believe it’s okay to hit a woman half his size under any circumstances?
If so, he’s just another thug. With an inferiority complex.
If not, is he just defending the black guy based on racist generalizations?
I’m not sure there is any way to justify the 24 year old teacher flipping out at people who “disrespected” him… What if the children in his care fail to koutou appropriately? What about their parents? His coworkers?
PineForest sounds like he needs a hug… but his momma isn’t here…
@51
Hopefully he’ll read you advice and take it. I imagine there’s be almost as many articles if he did.
#72, nevermind the fact that he hasn’t even been given his sentencing yet. Aren’t you jumping to conclusions even before all the results are in? If he walks free, nor get deported, then what would you say? And what do you suppose do you want the Korean police to charge the old man with? Being rude in public? Racism? What? And it’s not all true that the old man is letting off totally free because he’s Korean. There are some Korean netizens who wrote into forums, and thought he deserved the beat down – which I don’t agree with.
“Why did this particular incident go from being filmed, from cellphone to YouTube, to national scandal?””
Never heard of the case of the dog poop girl in the youtube? She was hounded out and it almost ruined her life. That was few years ago. Never heard of the more recent cases involving Korean on Korean fighting on subways that made headlines on TV and which lead to huge uproars and national scandal?
In the related blog post of the Scribblings of the Metropolitician, a commenter named “pabb” provided a link to an eyewitness account written in Korean. For those interested to find out what went down on the bus for the whole 20 minutes, click here.
these kinds of public rampages are being increasingly noticed and going viral on the internet in the states as well: http://violentflashmobs.com/
the mainstream media can’t suppress these things anymore
He’d make a very lasting impression if he did one of those public apologies, bowing and apologizing for 사회적 말썽 and all.
As they say, the first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem.
Does anybody else find it a bit disturbing that some commenters appear to be coming very close to the Colin Ferguson defense?
Look, ethnic grievances are like assholes — everyone’s got one. Koreans have their own beefs with the way they’ve been treated by foreigners, both in the past and the present. Mike — and in this case, I think wrongly, considering what we now know about the incident — pointed out, “Left out of the conversation — and a question that every Korean would ask were the court of popular opinion turned against them — is any consideration of what the context was.” It goes the other way, too, though. When incidents like this happen, many foreigners don’t ask themselves why it seems some Koreans resent them. Even in this case, we have what seems to me a clear case of a foreigner victimizing a local man in an outrageous manner, but rather than reflect on the fact that the Westerner community has its fair share of racists and louts who behave with little to no regard for those around them, some seem intent on making this about “Korean racism.”
Anyway, allow me to confront/acknowledge/answer some of the questions posed:
1. Why does it seem worse now?
I know Mike seems to think it’s worse now. I don’t doubt that in Mike’s experience, it is. However, it is my experience that the situation for foreigners living in Korea has improved exponentially since I first came here in 1997. There are many more foreigners here, and Koreans are much more comfortable with our presence. Why does it “seem” worse, then? Because in the old days, there were few public forum in which to bitch. Now, thanks to the Internet, Twitter, Facebook, etc., when the something foreigner-related happens, somebody posts it, and it goes around quickly. In a community like Korea’s Westerner community, where — let’s face it — few bother to learn enough Korean to read a newspaper or listen to the news — this can lead to an exaggerated sense of persecution.
2. Why has the media never reported on the pattern of confrontational encounters, which generally go the other way?
It doesn’t? The local press runs plenty of stories of foreigner woe, although most of the sob stories tend to be from “guest worker” and “foreign wive” types rather than Westerners (which makes sense, as the bulk of the foreigner community is non-Western). For that matter, most violent confrontations started by foreigners against Koreans — and I’ve seen plenty of those, too — don’t get reported in the local press. I would also point out that fewer foreigners make use of major Korean online forum (which is how this story got out), and it SEEMS that fewer foreigners make formal complaints to the police.
3. Why did this particular incident go from being filmed, from cellphone to YouTube, to national scandal?”
Because most societies—let alone Confucian ones—tend to react sensitively to young, uncouth foreigners assaulting old folk on public transportation. And yeah, the fact that he was seemed like a caricature of the “black thug” — big, dreds, baseball cap turned backwards, talking and motioning in a threatening manner — didn’t help matters. Also, see comment #77 from cm.
BTW, thanks for stopping by, Eve. I mean that.
@80 Indeed.
@26 Thanks for the link Tilly. I’ll see your Mina Lee and raise you another:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Mina-Lee/100001649713476
isn’t that like a confucian ritual thing bro? it only really makes sense when the parties involved share the same religion or worldview of confucianism. otherwise it’s like a buddhist or muslim going through the catholic sacrament of confession. just going through the motions. doesn’t have the same meaning as a believing catholic going through the ritual. the guy might think they’re just a bunch of gullible suckers letting him go by BSing his way through some silly ritual from a belief system he doesn’t have any respect for.
Indeed, if so happens.
Ship ‘em out to wherever he belongs.
Barack Obama should have both dudes over for a beer. End of story.
@eve
Are you interested enough in the questions to acknowledge those who have tried to “confront” and answer them? As I think myself and especially Robert answered them fairly completely. So where is the discussion you desired? I wrote a rather involved response to your statements over at Roboseyo that unfortunately either blogger or my phone didn’t want to post. To summarize, it’s very easy to say your want some discourse on a subject and then ignore or dismiss those who don’t match your pre-set views, but really how can that make anything better?
@84:
Right–because clearly, getting on your knees, begging forgiveness, and bowing has absolutely no meaning at all if you are not Confucian. Hell, I’ve never even HEARD of getting on one’s knees to express penitence before I came to Korea! So WEIRD!
One thing is for curtain to come from all this. Every adjossi and adjumma will think twice before telling a foreigner to shut up. If you look at that guys face you know he’s crapping himself.
When I first saw this I couldn’t help to think, South Central LA meet South Korea. Everyone should warn their Korean friends that if it looks like a thug, talks like a thug, IT’S A THUG. Anyone from California would have known better than to tell that guy to shut up.
Please don’t send him back to America either, he belongs in a Korean prison.
@88
True. No reason why he couldn’t offer a more substantial unequivocal public apology. I’m intrigued by the possibility however unlikely and hope he considers it.
Robert #81, I also heard Metro say on the radio this morning that things have gotten or seem worse. I was here for part of the 1990s, I agree with you, things are much better for non-Koreans, and that includes for blacks. It seems like Metro is stuck in a Farrakhan time warp.
The 1995 or 1996 version of this bus fight was the infamous subway brawl in which a bunch of Koreans DID attack a foreigner (he may have been a soldier) who was accused of harassing a Korean woman on the subway–it turned out to be his wife or gf, the guy had patted her on the butt. At that time, I made many of the points Metro is making about the Korean media not highlighting harassment against Korean women, about the media sensationalizing the case, not reporting or downplaying key details. In other words, the kinds of points that can be about any case.
I don’t think there were positive feelings before 1992, but the image of blacks definitely nose-dived after the LA riots. I remember seeing a documentary on a Korean TV show in which black people in Los Angeles were interviewed, it has been some time but I recall they were boasting about attacking Koreans, complaining about Koreans exploiting them, that they had “won” because Koreans were abandoning their businesses and were afraid of them. Newspaper ads (in either or both the Korea Times and Herald) were printed that openly sought out white or blond teachers. On TV shows, Korean commentators would openly crack jokes about blacks. There was one commentator who was talking about how ugly a black woman was, it apparently was bad enough that a few people called the station to complain. A commentator would be careful about making such comments today and I bet there would be many more complaints. Like Metropolitican, I’m not dark-skinned, so Koreans would tell me about how dangerous, terrible and dirty blacks are. I had a Korean woman managing a hakwon ask me if I knew any white teachers she could hire. (I reminded her that would mean I would be unqualified, so the answer was “Hell no.”) I applied for a job on a TV show seeking someone to talk about sports, I was a sports reporter in college and am still a sports nut. They called my home asking if it was true that I am black. I think the show was run by someone named Mr. Ike. I was the organizer of a special program at Korea Telecom–a Korean-American instructor said she couldn’t wait to meet the “black man who wasn’t really black.” Why? Because she was told that I’m educated, with good credentials–and not a criminal, so not really black. I would eventually hear at most jobs that Korean coworkers would be “warned” in advance that their new coworker was black. Etc.
Anyway, point of all of that: Metro seems to be referring back to the good old days or better days that never were. During the 1990s I met many black people who also talked like Metro, they were typically darker-skinned blacks. They had numerous stories, mine seemed so innocent that I would usually just listen to theirs and not mention my handful of slights, especially when for every slight I had so many positive experiences.
People see what they want to see, like the Socrates fable at the gates of Athens they find what they expect to find, so I am not surprised that people who talk about race and racism all of the time constantly find it. I won’t try to read Metro’s mind, but I will say that his post reminds me of the way blacks allegedly got more impatient in the 1960s AFTER the Voting and Civil Rights Acts passed. There didn’t seem to be much progress immediately, so there was more frustration, and supposedly part of the increase in riots after the legislation passed and Great Society was launched.
* * *
“Incident” by Countee Culllen
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/incident/
No, it’s not “WEIRD” at all, really.
Getting down on one’s knees is essentially an act of submission: the actor is saying, “I’m at your mercy.” In other words, the act can be construed as begging for forgiveness.
You know, the funny thing about the question “Why has the media never reported on the pattern of confrontational encounters, which generally go the other way?,” is that if you read the bitching that goes on in the more nativist reaches of Korean cyberspace, a common complaint is that the media concentrates too much on stories about foreigner suffering, while downplaying foreigner crime and misbehavior.
nayacasey — Hey, thanks for listening this morning. And thanks for the comment—I appreciate the insight.
@Casey
Just wanted to say thanks for commenting here as it lead me to your blog for the first time. Found a lot of interest there, so I look forward to reading more in the future.
i didn’t say it has absolutely no meaning bro. just different or not the same. confessing wrongdoings to other people is common in general. that doesn’t mean a believing catholic going through the confession ritual has the same meaning or mental, belief, emotional state or whatever as an atheist doing it.
@93 I’m pretty sure the commenter was being sarcastic and making the same point that you are.
@코리아 – I was interested in what Roboseyo had to say (yesterday, I skimmed most of the comments, saw that some started calling me names like “racist” “bigot,” etc., and went back when I saw that Roboseyo had specifically addressed all of my concerns). Where is what discussion? One part of the discussion has been had already on Roboseyo’s blog and I have no wish to discuss it with him further. Do, uh … you want to discuss it with me? In terms of me and Robo, we both completely understand each other and completely disagree. That conversation is now over.
Everyone’s getting their feelings out about the subject, so I’m not sure exactly what it is you want. I explained my position. Roboseyo (among others) explained theirs. And that’s that.
@Robert Koehler – I don’t know why, actually, some people find it so hard to see where “Mr. H” *might* have been coming from. I think it’s a knee jerk reaction (violence is BAD!) and racism (look at that BAD black man doing the BAD violence thing!) and hypocrisy (that violence against the old people is so BAD that I, an upright citizen, would never even DREAM of conducting myself in such a way!). So, people who don’t understand why I can understand: Have you NEVER had your buttons pushed in such a way that you behaved in a way you later regretted? Have you NEVER been in a situation where everything crashed down upon you all at once, and you acted before you had time to think?
It’s not so difficult to go from the context of what non-White people go through, to freaking out and ending up on YouTube.
I don’t know why some people can’t see the complexities of the situation, why some insist on a black or white thing (so to speak, bad pun). I grew up a minority in a white-majority world, and I went to college and learned about how things are relative and based on context. I learned about when the N-word can and cannot be used and by whom; there is disagreement about that, even amongst people who are experts on the subject.
Things can be BOTH. I can understand “Mr. H” and simultaneously condemn.
Actually, I appreciate the time you took to answer Mike’s questions.
1. “Why does it “seem” worse, then? Because in the old days, there were few public forum in which to bitch. ” — that makes a lot of sense to me, actually.
2. I can’t read Korean, so I don’t read the Korean news, so I can’t comment (agree or disagree). My knee jerk reaction is to disagree but that’s only because I read foreigner-POV blogs and news sources that report on things like how Koreans really hate us (we’re all druggies and perverts, etc., you know the drill). But that’s a knee jerk reaction, not an argument, really.
3. Yep.
“That said, I don’t get how you can say you understand his actions.”
I don’t think Metro is condoning the guys reaction.
A relatively young guy is constantly harassed, gets pissed off and loses control of himself. He’s not Korean, he doesn’t think about the consequences and he fucks up. That happens sometimes. I don’t think it’s odd for someone to say they understand why the guy did it.
@hardyandtiny – Yes. Thank you for saying in four sentences what took me a freaking page to say.
@eve
I apologize, the last I had seen on Roboseyo was when you had decided it was too difficult to explain things to white people. I took another look now and see you fleshed out your comments and responded you others. I still don’t agree with you, but can respect and appreciate your position.
As for what I wanted, you stated you wanted people to confront and discuss the questions and issues without acknowledging those who had on this forum. In your last comment, you did to Rob, so I can appreciate that as well. So, honestly, thank you and I have nothing more to ask, except that you keep sharing opinions and keep up the discourse if you would like. The more minds in the conversation, the more interesting and productive it can be.
I question how anyone can really understand Mr. H, is because even if we have had a desire to turn around and clock the old ajjoushi, none of us (that I know of) have actually done it. So why did he? What happened in his mind that pushed him over the edge when the rest of us were able to refrain. That his something only Mr. H knows and while we can speculate any number of psychological explanations as to why he snapped, I don’t think anyone can claim to understand him because all others have shown restraint. I know claiming understanding is not equal to support, but in a way it does excuse the main question that Mr. H needs to ask himself as to why he crossed the line if we can all already understand his reasons.
but in a way it does excuse the main question that Mr. H needs to ask himself, as to why he crossed the line, if we can all already understand his reasons.
(I realized that may have been a bit strange to read without punctuation. Maybe it’s still a bad sentence, but it’s the best I got)
I’ve had plenty of bad days. And yeah, sometimes I did things I regretted. I said something smartallecky to my wife. I wrote something online I shouldn’t have. I yelled at some kid while playing “Call of Duty” multiplayer.
Never, though, did I picture myself launching a 20-minute tirade—in a foreign language, no less—against a 60-something man on a public bus, and then attempt to throttle him.
Perhaps I just missed my calling as a Zen monk. My wife always bitches that I’m too passive.
Don’t get me wrong — I have no problem discussing “context.” It’s just, like I said, “context” applies to everyone. I’m sure even the Drunk Ajeossis ™ that seem to visit woe upon Mike and his friends at a disturbingly alarming rate have their stories. More so than this guy, in fact — I’m sure Mr. H never had to deal with growing up in the aftermath of the Korean War, under military dictators committing labor and political repression on an industrial scale. You’ll forgive me, though, for suspecting that if this were a video of a Drunk Ajeossi ™ harassing and assaulting a black guy on the bus, some commenters might be far less interested in “understanding” his rage or discussing the “context” of the attack, except perhaps to complain about media-generated xenophobia.
Korean attacks foreigner —> Korean racism. Foreigner attacks Korean —> Korean racism. Or at least that how the discourse often seems…
Imagine a soccer game. It is the Blue team against the Red team. You are watching the game. Your friends are all Blue and they tell you that you are also Blue so you really want the Blue team to win. Every time the ref blows the whistle against your team you think the ref sucks and is favoring those Red b******s and you and your friends all self-righteously agree.
And when the game is finally finished and it ends up being a tie game 1 to 1 you and your friends all agree that the ref sucked and the Red team players were a bunch of skillless a******s and the Blue team should have won and you all decide after drinking a lot of beer it would be a good idea to drop your pants in public in protest and then call the Red embassy and threaten to blow it up. And you do that but then you get arrested which really sucks!!!
Now imagine ANOTHER soccer game. But this time you are hanging out with your Red friends and they are all Red (because they are your “Red” friends) and they tell you that you are Red (and you believe them???) and you are playing that a*****e Blue team. You get the idea? The game ends 1 to 1 and you all hate the ref because he wasn’t fair and the Blue team players are a bunch of cheating………and you call the embassy……which really sucks!!!
Now wait a minute! Bear with me.
Now imagine a country. Let’s give it a name. Let’s call it something, I don’t care what, anything crazy and truly outlandish will do. Let’s call it Canada. Actually, I think there might really be a country named “Canada” because I do occasionally run into way gook eens who do claim to be “Canadians” and they show me red maple leaf tatoos as proof but I am not quite sure. Now these “Canadians” who claim to be from “Canada” assure me that their country is really, really big. I mean, they say, you could fit maybe fifty or one hundred Dae Han Min Gooks into Canada it is so God damned big, or so they claim.
Now bear in mind these very same “Canadians” claim a llloootttt of truly outlandish crazy s**t. Things like Alexander Graham Bell was Canadian, and Canadians are really good at hockey and Canada actually has an army and navy. I know!!! Pretty crazy s**t. Between you and me, I just laugh and WALK AWAY. I don’t want to pop their bubble. But, of course, I secretly fantasize about beating the BeJesus out of them all with an electrical fan (Fan death! I’m innocent!). But in the end, anyway you cut the kim chi, at the end of the day, I always WALK AWAY.
But dig this, these very same “Canadian” dudes and dudettes who are actually are very nice group of people claim that there are less people living in their mythical big land than there are living in all of tiny Han Gook land. They claim that there are about 30 million Canadians give or take a million living in their big land as opposed to about 50 million Han Gook eens give or take a billion living in tiny Han Gook land. I know, the math is kind of funny.
Anyways, to make a short story long, what I am trying to say is that Korea is a very congested society. Have you noticed? And when you have millions of people squeezed into the space of a small petri dish you are occasionally going to have some nasty chemical reactions take place between the red fungus and blue fungus and pink, purple, green and occasionally indigo fungi as well. I know, I know. I am mixing my metaphors.
But I too have lived in Korea since 1997 and I agree with his holy worshipfulness that Korea has gotten a lot better the past thirteen or fourteen years. But anytime you have this many people squeezed into this small of a space sparks are going to occasionally fly and afterwards there is going to be a lot of recrimination and farcical finger pointing which of course is groovy for the blogosphere, especially when there are accompanying videos.
And this may shock and come as a complete surprise to all of you but I am not a genius. I never claimed to be. In fact, at times in the past, I have been a complete dumb ass. In fact, my wife could tell you many stories. But after living many years in this truly beautiful country with many truly beautiful people I would humbly offer up two simple pieces of advice.
DRINK AT HOME. I know it is anti-social but after you finish work just go home and lock the door and slam the dead bolt and then open your first beer and do not leave until morning. Also, and more importantly, always WALK AWAY! I know, I know. This happened and that happened and he did this and that me chin ajumafia woman said that. Doesn’t matter!!!!! Does not matter!!!! SMILE, BOW then WALK AWAY.
“A relatively young guy is constantly harassed”
I have a 23-three-year-old black friend who lives in a county where I’m quite sure he’s the only black male. He is not constantly harassed. In fact I can’t recall him tell of ever being harassed here. In fact the only thing that comes close was one night when we were leaving a bar and a Filipino threw a bottle at someone else that smashed on the ground near us and sprayed a bit of broken glass at us.
He’s also in the habit of behaving himself in public. That may have something to do with it.
“That his something only Mr. H knows and while we can speculate any number of psychological explanations as to why he snapped, I don’t think anyone can claim to understand him because all others have shown restraint”
All others have shown restraint? I have heard numerous stories of foreign guys beating the living crap out of Koreans who called the foreign guy’s Korean girlfriend/wife a bitch simply because she was walking down the street with a foreigner. Of course, that’s a different scenario, but the Korean prosecutor’s office is not going to side with the attacker in either case – and they shouldn’t. People should just move on, especially if they’re in a foreign country.
Yes, hitting an old guy is disgusting, and the young man should be ashamed of himself. However, these type of things do happen. I understand how someone could get fed up and lose control. He’s 24, he’s black, he’s constantly being harassed and some old fucker gives him a nasty “shi-gu-ra!”. He “went off” as they say. He should have never hit him, but I think he had every right to tell the guy to fuck off.
Do you know if this is true? Do you know enough about the guy and his time in Korea to conclude that he was constantly harassed? Do you know that, even if the guy felt he was constantly harassed, that the harassment wasn’t just a product of oversensitivity and spending too much time in the Expat Echo Chamber? Keep in mind that there are many non-white long-term expats in Korea who do not face a constant barrage of harassment, racism, or ethnic chauvinism, or have to dodge pitchfork-and-torch-wielding lynch mobs the moment they step out of their homes.
I really question the entire basis for turning this story into a discussion about race in Korea. Was this an example of racism or perceived racism (born out of the ignorance of and stereotypes held by the assailant)? Because there is a difference, and it matters. We’ve just assumed (without justification) that because a black guy and a Korean guy got into a dustup, that therefore race must have been key factor in the whole matter (It might have, but so far no one has offered up any evidence to justify that leap), Or that somehow this event is paradigmatic of interracial encounters in Korea (It’s not). That’s not to say that there shouldn’t be a discussion about race and nationalism in Korean (there should be), but we need to be careful that we’re not merely projecting our own preconceived notions and agendas onto this incident. How can we claim to “understand” where this guy was coming from if we ourselves lack all the necessary facts to really understand the circumstances?
The dude was not just hitting the old man; he was choking, attacking with gusto! Looks as if he was on crack or meth or both…totally disgusting.
Well the first bunch of those don’t sound like they turned into anything, so exactly what would there have been to capture on film? Someone says “Shut up” to you, by the time you get your phone out its over and done with. The fact that you’ve included these kinds of incidents tells us a great deal about how you’re angling. I’m not dismissing the others, but not every violent event gets caught on camera. It’s getting more and more frequent, but depending on the time, location, etc someone may not record it. We’ve seen plenty of videos of Koreans doing bad stuff on youtube captured by other Koreans.
And we have it compared with this.
What this incident comes down to is this:
We control our actions. To a certain degree it doesn’t matter what anyone else did, Mr. H chose to act the way he did. The old guy and the woman weren’t armed. The woman wasn’t taking someone hostage.
This is really all that matters. The old guy could have been calling him every name in the book, but it shouldn’t have mattered, get off the bus and move on.
No, one eyewitness (the link in #79) begs to differ with what you speculated above.
According to the account, the old man in question seems far from “some old fucker” and, no, the assailant didn’t have “every right to tell the guy [old man] to fuck off.”
@milton:
“Keep in mind that there are many non-white long-term expats in Korea who do not face a constant barrage of harassment, racism, or ethnic chauvinism, or have to dodge pitchfork-and-torch-wielding lynch mobs the moment they step out of their homes.”
Yes, I’m one of them, but I HAVE experienced what may be called a “constant barrage” of harassment, discrimination, etc., throughout my life, in the states (where I come from) and abroad.
“Was this an example of racism or perceived racism (born out of the ignorance of and stereotypes held by the assailant)?
I agree that racism and perceived racism are two different things, but race was a factor in this incident. Obviously, given Mr. H’s statement.
“How can we claim to “understand” where this guy was coming from if we ourselves lack all the necessary facts to really understand the circumstances?”
This, to me, is entering into semantics. When I say I understand where this guy was coming from, perhaps I meant, “I understand what/where I perceive this person is coming from, as I am a person of color.”
No milton, I don’t know. I am giving an example of why it could have happened, in opposition to those who seem completely unable to understand any scenario which could have led to the attacker’s actions.
Yeah, this must come from “spending too much time in the Expat Echo Chamber” as Milton put it.
It did happen to me I have had several “expat rages”..Once walking into an ice cream shop in Germany and everyone turned around to look, I felt like screaming “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU LOOKING AT?”
And another time on a high speed train in Germany. I was tired, people were neither coming nor going with their luggages, blocking the aisles, and there was an old German couple sitting in our seats which you have to pay extra to reserve (often Germans will come and tell you to move from your seat in that Hitler Achtung Schnell way) but when my German speaking friend asked them that we’d reserved the seat, they merely pointed at the seat in front in which a girl was sitting and made very slight gestures of moving but not really doing it. So we took it to mean that that seat in front was theirs. I was more pissed off with my German speaking friend who didn’t explain to the couple to move (the old man had a walking stick he said later).
In the end the girl who went to the toilet with her bag on the seat came back and saw us sitting there and she gave us crap for putting her bag up on the rack in German.
Something just went off in my head and I was screaming “Fucking Germans, it’s German to never bend the rules and have zero sympathy for any special case, why the fuck don’t they move? Why do they have to act like they don’t understand what’s going on? They didn’t make allowances for the lame when they followed the rules and shipped all the Jews..Fucking Germans”
I am a small girl so I don’t think I would have been easily controlled much if I’d started throwing punches around but some of us more hot-blooded we all suffer from these “expat rages” especially if we cannot speak their language and we feel like we are second class citizens by the way we look.
“Because there is a difference, and it matters. We’ve just assumed (without justification) that because a black guy and a Korean guy got into a dustup, that therefore race must have been key factor in the whole matter (It might have, but so far no one has offered up any evidence to justify that leap), Or that somehow this event is paradigmatic of interracial encounters in Korea (It’s not). ”
That’s true. I also can understand another black person in Korea seeing this incident and then saying something like, “Oh, man, you don’t know how many times I wanted to do something like that.” And then go on to say they don’t know why it happened, and maybe the guy is a total fucking loon, but they understand why it may have happened.
@코리아 – Cool.
@Robert Koehler – you can totally still be a Zen monk. me — just can’t. wasn’t so into turning the other cheek, either.
With regards to Korea, it’s just a growing pain. The honeymoon period where seeing a non-army foreigner is a novelty thing pretty much everywhere in the country is over, and now comes the period of sizing each other up in terms of where they fit in the society..”guest workers? what does that mean?”
It makes no sense to apply “Some ajossis are loud on the phone so why should I get told off?” the current hierarchy is usually 1.age(older) 2.sex(male). It will take a little time when things can be viewed by individual cases. Even within Korea you see this rule sometimes going through flares of revolution, where young kids start lashing out like crazy monkeys at some meddling old halmonis, and get the same number of views on Youtube. It’s just it’s a turbulent time, but it will settle soon.
From what I know, the old man, due to his limited English skills, said “Shut up please.” He most likely added “please” word assuming it was a polite form meaning, “Please be quiet.” Then after some verbal exchage, he said something like “니가 여기 앉아…” or something like that. “Niga..meaning, you, sit here…” and that particular wording led to violent attack on the old man. Obviously, it was a matter of horrible miscommunication. Still, the dude needs to be deported for good.
Whatever…the defenders of this guy sound really hypocritical to me ?
I’d really like to run an experiment, going back in time to when i was 24 and living in Chicago. I would be on a bus yelling on my cell phone to my grandma in my Alpine dialect (a particularly obnoxious vernacular, sounding like a mix between Southern drawl and chicken scratch). At some point some old dude would tell me to shut up throwing in the mix the word “What” that i mistake for “Wop”.
Enraged by the racial slur i’d jump the guy trying to strangle him, all hell breaks loose some old American grandma tries to break us apart with the only tangible result of getting herself a few from me.
Now if i wouldn’t be tased or downright shot by the cops, i’m sure there would be the day after outside my place a lynch mob of red-blooded American males, black and white, liberal and conservative alike, waiting for me with pitchforks and shotguns.
Jieun K, Thanks. I tend to believe the eyewitness’ account..
YangachiBastardo… who’s defending the guy?
Amazing, really amazing cos it was really Mister H the one who got his cheek slapped. Unfuckinbelievable
HT many people say he shouldn’t be deported and he should get away with just a token apology and a small fine.
I think a reasonable amount of jail (3-6 months), adequate compensation to the victim (10 mil. KrW) and a permanent ban to enter Korea would be the appropriate punishment
Lest not forget that a strangling atttempt is not a small thing, it could have led to serious injury and imho it qualifies as aggravated assault
You’d be tased, but if you were black, shot. And depending on which neck of Chicago, you might be the start of a riot
BTW I wasn’t trying to defend him. You go by what’s written, and sometimes what’s written is faked. For example, in the eye witness’s account, which I believe 99 percent of what is written is accurate in terms of what went down, I am bothered by this
That’s always bothered me. Why to non-English speaking Koreans, English sounds like 샬라샬라. Sounds more Arabic?
I just realised another hilarious point:
머리통!!!!우하하하! worse than 바로 할아버지 대갈님 위에서..
I don’t know shit about Korean law, at all. I can’t imagine how the prosecutor’s office will handle the case.
LOL Yuna wasn’t thinking of you, if anything i really like your constant cynicism, even if i find it a bit worryin in such a young person.
Funny thing is my (ex) bro-in-law who often travels for business reasons to Japan told me several times my language sounds like Japanese, i suspect it was not meant as a compliment
My own little two-bits.
As someone who has been here a long time I can honestly say that things have improved in a lot of ways in regards to foreigners – especially those of color – but things aren’t perfect and a lot still needs to be done. I have seen and heard about a lot of the things Metro has experienced (not quite sure why he attracts so much trouble – but he does) and I can understand his rage. To be honest, though, I think in some ways he is too sensitive and needs to relax and remember that this isn’t Kansas.
Mr. H., may have been just having a bad day and he lashed out. We all do stupid things when we are young – fortunately for me, mine weren’t caught on film. I also think a lot of times we hear or perceive what we want to hear or perceive – the 니가 probably had very little if any thing to contribute to the incident.
I also agree with some of the readers when they suggested that he should swallow his pride and do the apologies on his knees. Hell, if it is good enough for Korean politicians, why isn’t it good enough for a young English teacher? I also think it would gain him a lot of positive publicity – which is something he seems to need about now.
And, nayacasey – great blog.
HERE IS THE BEST IDEA EVER FOR A REALITY TV SHOW!
Have the Adjossi and black English teacher from the video live together in an officetel for one year with cameras everywhere. Maybe the lady can be the nosy neighbor. Ratings in Korea and the US will go through the roof and they’ll both be millionaires!
It would probably end up something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDC8AluXVE
Hardyandtiny, you’re welcome.
That would really be a compelling experiment in point.
Sounds about ethically right t0 me.
I would hope so. I am big and tall, though I have white skin. Getting on the bus this week has been met with Koreans looking at me with fear, and moving out the way – even though I am one of the kindest, polite persons to be had.
I think the adjumna and grandfather may try to have been “hurt” in the assault and get some cash from the situation – however, that will only encourage more Koreans to tell foreigners to “shut up” to make some cash from it.
Understatement of the year. Easy for me to say, being a white guy, I know – but for the wealth of experience and knowledge Metro has about the ROK, in some ways he’s still a bit clueless. Like his memo on how to handle a situation involving a rude ajoshi – scream as loud as possible in Korean so as to attract attention to the offending gentleman. Right. How about just walk away? Or better yet – don’t incite them in the first place.
Anyway, I’m surprised this has been such a huge talking point. The guy – regardless of his ethnicity – behaved like a complete thug.
Yeah, old Korean men can be assholes. But in many ways they’ve earnt that right – and there are better ways to deal with it. Christ, smile and tell the old guy to fuck off if you have to.
Fine + deport.
@adod
eh, I think there’s better money in ratting out illegal hagwon practices
Gawd
.
.
.
Them Koreans telling you to “shut up,” and then risk getting beaten up and strangled to death only to “make some cash from it.”
Just brilliant.
I wonder about his credentials as an English teacher. Hope he has a college degree, because from the video he looks like a total high school dropout.
Are you stocked up on enough deodorants?
All H’s statement shows is that he perceived himself to be the victim of racism, not that he actually was a victim of racism. Was he singled out, discriminated against, or insulted because of his race or ethnicity? We don’t know, and truly knowing someone’s intentions in cases like this can be impossible, because, based on what I’ve read in the Korean press, there wasn’t any overt racism (being singled out for his race, being called racial slurs, etc.). And if his actions were based on mere perceptions, it’s also important to question what shaped those perceptions. Were they forged from a genuine experience of harassment and discrimination, or based on false beliefs and assumptions about the way Koreans view people with dark skin color? The former case would cause us to put the norms of Korean society under the microscope. The latter would force us to look inwards and examine the attitudes and beliefs common in the expat community regarding Korean attitudes toward race.
I don’t think this is a matter of semantics. How can you truly understand if your understanding is based on unproven assumptions, and thus the situation you think you understand never really occurred? You only think you understand because you assume he was the victim of racism. But if we assume for a second that he wasn’t the victim of the racism, that he was just a bad egg with a bad personality and a history of violence, are his actions still understandable? Would you still feel that being a “person of color” gives you special insight into his state of mind?
I shower twice a day, plus go swimming at Lotte Hotel (& sauna).
I only use the most expensive perfumes (Dolce & Gabbana)
Jieun, you shouldn’t be do skeptical I could tell you much crazier and dangerous things I’ve seen than that.
Welcome to the Guido chav club Tetsuya
Argh Japanese people are not white Northern Europeans, get over it
paulhewson — That was hella funny.
Milton:
Indeed. Perhaps Mr. H suffered from racism by proxy. Kind of like how the Fort Hood shooter suffered from PTSD by proxy before the NYT finally had to admit he was jihadi…
I think you just defined xenophobia.
I’m all ears.
Eve seems to be having a concept crisis
Saying how she can fully understand a black person despite not being one and at the same time posting the racist comment that only a white guy could go off on one like that in korea.
This is NOT an OPEN thread – but as you like to make those type of comments – what makes you think I am Japanese????
My mother has a 40,000 year ancestry of “Australian” and my father is German/Austrian/Hungarian.
no Japanese or Asian in my blood.
BTW, I don’t wish to join YOUR Guido chav club Tetsuya club, Korean people say it wreaks of beer.
I actually prefer Cool waters.
Much to my surprise, I had the privilege of talking about this very topic this morning in front a room of Koreans and I explained how what the Korean gentleman said sounded similar (니가 . . . ) to “nigger” and how the black guy acted wrongly and how patience was needed on the parts of both parties especially since there is a language barrier. I also explained about the social history of African-Americans and how sensitive they can be to the N-word and why I would never use that word around African-Americans either.
It was a decent sharing moment anyhow.
Yuna @ 47 – That is NOT what I said. I was observing the blog situation, but alas, this is not an open thread, and, I think I’m starting to “get” you, as you apparently get me. You are a small woman, with a lot of anger, who is at the verge of exploding at any given time, but keeps it in. The way you release steam is by insulting people who you do not know, and who you decide are loathsome as they asked an honest to goodness question out of genuine curiosity. Should you disagree with my observation, I was hoping to hear from you, as YB pointed out in his comment in another thread where he stated that he encountered many a Japan based expat that had negative things to say about the place. You, on the other hand, read in some deep lurid meaning in a question that I posted on my blog. OK, got it.
I do not think I have ever once been rude to you, and frankly, as a poster/administrator to a blog that I have a great deal of respect for, (as, up to right now, I would say that I have gained respect for every poster and many a commentator on this blog, in particular R. Koehler for putting it all together) I’m kind of surprised by the pettiness that you are showing towards not just me, but others, for merely asking questions or stating their views.
Funny thing is, I gave Q the benefit of the doubt based on a thumbs up from you. Such benefit was lost when he insisted on referring to Japanese people as both “Japs” and “Monkeys” (in a Korea related blog, no less, – he has the right to post it, but Zeus forbid if I call him out on it) in the same post (but, to the defense of Q, he has toned this down, if not eliminated it since Robert gave him a warning). Interesting how you were posting comments in his defense of cutting and pasting Fukushima news 24-7 and using racist terms, but when I pose a serious question related to expat views on Japan and Korea you mark me as some kind of public enemy.
Got it Yuna. I’m a moron for asking a question, which , btw, other posters to this blog, as well as blog owners of other reputable K-blogs responded to genuinely and in earnest.
@Robert Neff<< How's the onsen book going?
Re: 147
+ 10
(Yuna thinks that all big, tall, white guys have B.O. problems)
I have been wanting to say what you said in #147 for a long time – thanks for saying it for me).
+10?
(p.s. I am probably cleaner than her – as I am a clean freak.)
+10 because I agree with what you wrote 10 times over.
I would be too afraid to write what you wrote – as she is a moderator on this site.
I’m trying to understand Mr. H. I don’t know what it’s like to be a visible minority in Korea. All I can go by is what I read and what people tell me, and what’s on TV. And a lot of opinion seems to be Korea is a nightmare, particularly for a black person. I’ve read lot of stories in Korean about the poor state of race relations and how dark skinned visible minorities are mistreated on a daily basis. It all leads to my impression that the race relations in Korea 2011 is a nightmare, hopeless, and Koreans as very ignorant racist people. So when you ask how Mr. H must have felt when he attacked the old man, I have to admit I thought about how he must have been mistreated in Korea for the six months that he’s been in country, for him to react like this over a word. I try to imagine what’s it like to be shitted on daily for being black, for six months and maybe he just flipped because he couldn’t take it anymore. After all, there must be a reason why any person would try to get at an old man for 20 minutes, overpowering several men who tried to subdue him… that rage something must have been a cause of that extreme rage. No normal people would do that if they didn’t have an extreme rage of being wronged.
But then time to time I read threads like this, that things have really improved in Korea in terms of race relations, not like the old days as some of you say. When I read something like, I am confused. I’m totally confused. We have bunch of people who are saying Korea is Alabama circa 1860 while getting worse and worse, and we have bunch of people who are saying it’s not, that it’s getting better.
I am totally confused. How can so many people have two completely different sets of experiences? These opposing views seems to run particularly to any subjects that involve Korea. We have the “whiners”, and the “Korea apologists” – two sets of people with two different completely opposite views – but live in the same country.
I understand Korea’s media is one of the problems exasperating the foreign communities, but what I’m talking about is the daily real life experiences of a foreigner in Korea. I wish someone will answer my question, why this is, because this is just confusing, and I’m sure I’m not the only ones confused. I’m sure people who have never been to Korea and are planning to, but don’t know what the situation is in Korea, would also like to know.
Deeply bowing and apologizing will look silly. Just issue a letter of apology to the victims. The punishment is in the court of public opinion. I’m sure some of the parents of those kids in his class knows who their teacher is. The other punishment is he has to live in Korea for the rest of the contract with his school.
One good thing about this incident is that other ajushis who have watched this news will think twice about saying shut up to a foreigner, lest see what could happen. But one bad thing is that this will not encourage more Koreans to sit, or even stand beside a foreigner in public transportation, cause they’ll be afraid that the foreigner might snap. There, good and bad.
Karma, or whatever you want to call it. One thing I’ve noticed over the years is that someone’s general attitude on day 1 will often tell you what kind of an experience they’ll report.
If someone is looking for an excuse, someone who is miserable and probably shouldn’t be anywhere let alone here, they’re going to be constantly negative, having negative experiences, and reporting as such.
Someone who comes open minded, and rolls with the punches will generally report a positive experience. It’s not totally black and white, but it’s a general rule that I find to be true more often than not.
Those are negative tend to amplify negative situations, carry them over, let it eat them, they don’t view Korean as “human” or “people” but instead view them as “Koreans” as if it’s a dirty word, and adopt a me against them mentality. Their behaviour reflects this, and it colors every interaction they have.
@You only think you understand because you assume he was the victim of racism. But if we assume for a second that he wasn’t the victim of the racism, that he was just a bad egg with a bad personality and a history of violence, are his actions still understandable?
As a Black person, he was almost certainly a victim of racism. I feel pretty comfortable assuming that.
“Would you still feel that being a “person of color” gives you special insight into his state of mind?”
Yes.
@Arghaeri August 31, 2011 at 7:21 pm
Eve seems to be having a concept crisis
. But god forbid a Korean offend a White person. That White person will go ape shit in a way a minority person never would, because that minority has experienced it countless times already in their native country and abroad.”
I’m don’t think I’m experiencing a concept crisis, though you seem to think I am. I believe I have a good grasp of the complexities of race and racism and perceived racism in a different way than white people do.
“Saying how she can fully understand a black person despite not being one and at the same time posting the racist comment that only a white guy could go off on one like that in korea.”
I don’t believe I am being racist, though I can understand how you think I am. You’re taking my comments out of context; I believe that white people scream racism when it is NOT racism and “go off.” I believe that people of color experience racism on a level that is off the charts (true racism, racism based on race and not just “being a foreigner”) and “going off” is something I understand in those cases.
Eve @ 157 – Agreed… and white men have it even better…
Not sure, did someone here post this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY
Hysterical and illustrates your point well.
Yangachi, can you kindly leave me out of your spats with adieopsis gymnophoria.
A couple of stuff:
@cmm (comment #84): Very Nice. Clearly this chiquita know how to work it.
Not exactly a fan Norman Podhoretz, but this “convo” about Mr. H and the attendant reactions in the Korean press and in other venues got me thinking about his famous essay “My Negro Problem-And Ours”:
PineForest writes:
I’m pretty sure the feeling is mutual.
Being the eternal optimist I hope some good comes from this. I’ve had very few run ins with anyone ever in my life. I treat people with the respect I expect to be given myself, I give up my seat on the bus-subway for elderly, disabled or pregnant people, I’ll hold open a door to someone rather than let it crash back into them and I generally behave myself. Sure, I’ve sworn at a few taxi drivers, I’ve been a little blunt with people who runny crappy restaurants, I’ve been rude to people who have tried to cheat me out of money, I’ve called people out when they’re trying to push in front of me in a line. I’m polite, but I’m certainly not a pushover.
Hopefully Koreans and also foreign guests, will look at this and both groups will gain. Most older Korean people have had a truly miserable existence, and even younger ones have not had many of the opportunities afforded to middle class Americans and Europeans. When I was growing up I had a lot of privileges that most people in most countries could only dream of and my parents aren’t even ‘rich’ by western standards. I held open a door for an old guy earlier as he was entering a store and he thanked me. Perhaps that young black man has done us all a favour and made people realise manners are important. When I was a temporary invalid last year Koreans were mostly very kind in accommodating me and I always thanked them politely. Rude old people (I’ve met more than a few) I just ignore.
I have friends from many countries outside Korea who live here and a lot of them are ‘people of colour’, they never get in any trouble. They dress in better clothes than your average Korean office worker, they speak much better Korean than I and they behave politely. No one bats an eyelid at a black American businessman who I know, he dresses well and behaves well. If he was going to dress up like one of the characters from The Wire, people would have a different impression of him. People have to realise that Koreans generally don’t have much experience in dealing with people from other countries. If you’re a black chap and dress up- behave like Obama and behave yourself you’ll have less problems than being a white guy and dressing up and acting like a chav.
Saying all that peace and love stuff above it is also important that there is a hierarchy of race in this country, and even little kids are exposed to conditioning. Maybe H. just snapped after seeing other white teachers around him accorded more respect than he was? Maybe the older Korean guy (we all know what they can sometimes be like) was very rude and the rudeness was ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back’?Maybe people looking at him and sniggering and saying ‘Aprikkua Saram’ and ‘Monkey’ just got to him, he’s a young guy so maybe he decided that rather than be the object of fun to many Korean and a novelty, he’d rebel and become a stereotype of an LA gangbanger in both his manner and his immature fashion sense. He’s a young bloke and young people do some rather stupid things at times. As someone else said earlier, we’ve all done stupid things in the past.
All this about sending him to jail and fining him millions of won is rather silly. He didn’t cause that much damage really apart from to his own reputation. A heartfelt apology and a gracious acceptance of it would go a long way to resoving the issue in a mature fashion.
The real lesson should maybe be to Koreans who own hagwons or run schools. An older, better travelled, more mature candidate is almost always better than a kid who has never left their home country, never lived away from home and never held down a proper job before. Of course they wouldn’t want to pay for it. I was eventually rejected for a job last year because ‘I wanted too much money’, I was at first told I had the job, then found someone who would work for less, who was far less experienced. In a way they were doing me a favour as I found a much better job just two weeks later, more money, more holiday, better schedule, better conditions and a better school!
‘Manners maketh the man’ (or woman) wherever you are.
@Japonymous – Excellent clip. thanks for sharing. sums up a lot of things I believe in a super humorous way.
Especially (and I think this is important) — there is no slur against white people that is comparable to the N-word.
Again, thanks for sharing.
Clearly, I perceive racism as discrimination of one race against another regardless of color, whereas you perceive racism as something only races of color can experience.
Perhaps you might try expanding your horizons to countries that do not fit wirhin your limited perception boundaries.
Eve @158 – Just briefly checked out your blog… interesting side note… the comedian… he’s Mexican.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_C.K.
Actually born in Mexico, and lived there till he was 7. Coolness….
I think theres a number of factors involved.
Pre-departure, people read all kinds of sensationalistic blog posts, articles, forum threads, travelogues, etc. about how “racist” Koreans are. When they arrive in-country, they expect to be treated badly and confirmation bias ensures that they dwell on the burly ajumma who shoved her way out of the bus and the unscrupulous hagwon director who fires people in the 11th month of their contracts, while conveniently forgetting about the friendly ajeoshi who helped repair a burnt out light bulb or the neighbor who helped carry in that load of groceries. People come here expecting Koreans to be racist and so they make sure they find (and imagine and exaggerate) plenty of incidents of racism to fulfill their expectations. People who are looking for trouble are going to find it. That’s human nature. I’ve met more than my fair share of paranoid expats who manage to find racist overtones in every Korean twitch and glance and are convinced that a Korean version of the KKK is lurking behind every shadow.
There’s also the nature of the people who tend to come here. A lot of people (Westerners in particular) tend to go to Japan because they grew up watching Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball, love sushi, and obsess over learning kanji. They go to China because they’re fascinated by Chinese history and hope learning Chinese will give them an edge in the business world. They go to Thailand because they love beaches, ladyboys, and great deals on fake gems. In other words, these people want to be in their host countries and tend to be more forgiving of local imperfections. On the other hand, people tend to come to Korea because they’re looking for adventure and high-paying, easy teaching jobs to pay off their student loans, or in the case of other Asians, because they did poorly on their college entrance exams. They don’t really have anything “invested” in focusing on the positive side of Korea, and don’t appreciate or understand their host culture. For some Westerners in particular, I think there’s some latent disappointment at not being treated like King Whitey, and these folks, with a sense of entitlement, are shocked to be greeted at Incheon by a haggard customs agent instead of Lee Myung-bak and the other tribal chieftains and a harem of Korean virigins for His Majesty’s pleasure. They face further disappointment when they learn that the backwards locals treat them with indifference instead of ooing-and-aahing and mistaking them for Tom Hanks, and that their white skin and English abilities don’t magically open every door in the country.
That said, there is definitely racism here. There are more than enough examples of racism in the media, in the education system, in the national ideology and policy, and other venues to fill several volumes. I don’t doubt (all) of those stories about cab drivers ignoring foreign fares to pick up a Korean fare 5 meters up the road, about foreigners being denied entry into night clubs, about police and bystanders always siding with the Korean, about young nationalistic hotheads deamanding that Yankee go home, or about curmugeoned drunk seniors dressing down Korean women for being near their foreign boyfriends, but I feel that most of the racism is on the “systemic” level as opposed to the person-to-person level. I think a lot of it boils down to how you carry yourself in public and how you behave: if you act like a barbarian and treat Korea like your personel frat house, you’ll be treated accordingly. If you make the effort to adapt, act in professional manner, smile, and be discreet, people will leave you alone.
I have no moderating rights, you two. Even if I had I would not exercise it – I like to let people make fools of themselves and show their true colours – I am not scared of showing mine. Don’t be scared especially seeing as you are adamant that your armpits smell like spring breeze.
The questions you ask are dis·in·gen·u·ous like Gerry Bevers asking “Please list top 10 brutalities of Japanese against the Koreans.” but. you can get plenty fodder here for further such wide-eyed questions.
It’s really unfortunate that you think that way, and that you fail to see the racism inherent in your own statement. Since this discussion is clearly turning toward the irrational, I see no point in continuing.
#148 TheSoulOfJapan
I believe you have me mistaken with the great journalist and writer Robert C. Neff in Japan.
No Yuna. You keep on trying to tie my world view in with G. Bevers because we are both White and we both occasionally speak well of Japan. I have never asked any question like “list the top 10 atrocities committed by Japan.” I’ve extensively studied said atrocities as an Asian Studies/Gov’t major at university, and I have been able to parlay my interest in Asia into an Asia related career which I am very satisfied with. It could possibly be my satisfaction with my life, family, friends and career that deprives me of the need of being petty and attacking people that I do not know.
As I posted on an other thread, my own views on Japan are evolving on a daily basis, but I know that they are not the same as they were when I first touched down in Narita 17 years ago. I do my best not to whine and complain about my situation in Japan, and I do my best to try to understand the culture and the people that are hosting me, even when I do not agree with everything I see or hear.
Further to your insinuation, Milton’s comment at 165 is EXACTLY the kind of feedback I was looking for in my question. I have also pondered the “expat self-selection” cause for the difference in the blogosphere. I think there is also a matter of economic opportunity in that self-selection. Though the passing of the US-ROK FTA may change the situation, the Japanese economy is still more open than the Korean economy, as far as service industries are concerned. While Korea, for example, does not allow any foreign law firms, Japan is packed with many an International Law firm (though, mostly not very profitable). Similar story goes for I-Banks, though there is no out right prohibition on foreign I-Banks in Korea, the I-Banks tend to be not as well staffed by Expats, as the I-Bank opportunities are not as dynamic as they are in Japan. This could simply be tied in to economic size. This influx of more professional expats (as well as Milton’s comment on the self-selection) may play a role in why the blogosphere appears to be the way it is.
You see Yuna… its a polite and academic discussion. That’s all it is…. and though I have never met G. Bevers, I do know that I am NOT him. Your grouping us together has distorted your views on what I write, and quite frankly on what any non-Asian may have to write that you may interpret as being pro-Japanese.
Really? I find it hard to believe that to an ordinary thinking man who’s interested in this topic, that what Milton has written isn’t so earth-shatteringly obvious with loud bells going BLING BLING or have not been repeated a hundred times over in a blog like this that you could have missed it.
If that really is the case, I hope that satisfies your thirst for the “academic” discussions. Keep on loving Japan. I have a suggestion. You could go find Locoinyoko or Debito or whatever site I came across which was just the place you were looking for, and be more useful there. All you do is 불난데 부채질 most of the time in terms of the Korea-Japan relations.
I find it hard to believe [...] that what Milton has written isn’t so earth-shatteringly obvious with loud bells going BLING BLING or have not been repeated a hundred times over in a blog like this that you could have missed it.
ㅠㅠ
So here is the link for Ablahblah Gblahblah. HApparently, this guy also forgot to put on deodorant on both armpits too.
Let’s forget about race for a minute, and focus instead that:
“H” is an adult, and is here to teach (albeit at a commercial academy). Which means, as a grown-up he is liable for whatever action he commits, and as a teacher, he is something of a role model.
Now, enter one eyewitness account:
What do you see in “H”? And do you still see room for acquitting “H” for whatever reason? Let’s hear it.
Debito ain’t my cup of tea. Was a fan 17 years ago. He lost me when he started going on about “gaijin” being a racist slur. Loco I’m a fan of. Think he keeps a great balance in his posts.
Also, I don’t think that what Milton wrote was “earth-shatteringly obvious.” Look, say what you will, but, I genuinely asked a question and I genuinely wanted to get an answer. Moist of the answers I had heard before. Some I had not. I’ve had some great discussions with friends on the same issue, and I just wanted to move it online. Glad I did. You seem to be the only one who was taken aback by the question ans saw some deep insidious inspiration in my posting of the question. Those few comments posted to my blog were appreciated, and those that I read here, and else where were further appreciated. Your “earth-shatteringly obvious” comment is not just insulting to me, but is insulting to everyone who took the question seriously and took valuable time out of their day to reflect and respond.
Yuna – whatever, I get it. You have made it clear in your recent posts and comments. You are an angry woman (or is it “small yellow chick” as your avatar conveys… actually witty… yet another reason that I always gave you the benefit of the doubt) who keeps in her feelings and unleashes behind the ether when no one is there to see. As a poster to this blog I am absolutely amazed that you basically just told me to “get out” because I don’t belong here. Especially as I do not insult, hurl slurs, and always try to keep things civil. This is particularly interesting as you are usually the one who posts the stories related to Japan-Korea relations. Why even post the stories if you want them to be a conversation with you and your various fans? What’s the point? Isn’t the whole point exchanging ideas and learning from each other?
Though as I mentioned earlier, I always try to keep an open mind as to the country that is hosting me, I always try to keep an open mind on most things, and I have changed my views more than once based on discussion I have had on this blog.
Thanks again for your suggestion, and showing me the ether constructed door. You have given me the motivation to spend what little free time I have contributing to my own blog, rather than to any story you may post.
Adios amiga.
To everyone else. Just click on my name above to keep in touch. Hop eto get a new post up by next week.
Oh nooooo, please stay! It’s not even my blog!! Don’t go! I’ll do anything! I’ll even answer your questions!
But you damn right I’m an angry yellow chick. I’ll become like those angry old Robert-de-Niro in taxi-driver halmoni when I grow old.
Jieun K, #173, I already posted that link in the other thread, with a word of caution: I cannot verify this source, that it really is from the person who was in that bus, and not some trolling effort on a public BBS to whip up an internet mob. I’m not saying the story is not believable, but do you have any information that this source is confirmed to be real?
CM, I don’t have the journalistic wherewithal to confirm the veracity of the source, but I’m confident it’s not a fabrication.
If so inclined, one could send a request to the relevant authorities to follow the trail and attempt to contact the source.
Parting is such sweet sorrow – I know it’s not much but we did a quick whip round the thread and got you a rose..
@->->–
We’ll keep your desk in case you change your mind..
In addition to what I wrote in #165, I would also add that, when dealing with people of different races/ethnicities, people tend to attribute the negative actions of others to racist motives instead of seeking out more likely and reasonable motives. For instance, we have a tendency to believe that when a Korean shopkeeper is being curt, he is doing so because he hates foreigners, instead of concluding he’s just a garden-variety asshole to everyone, or is having a rough day.
# 161 Keith,
“As someone else said earlier, we’ve all done stupid things in the past.” Speak for yourself but not Robert Koehler, he pretends to be perfect and since you’re nothin but a moon shadow, I’m surprised your poop stinks.
What do you think about your fella’s English below? It’s a good thing he doesn’t teach English anymore aye?
#82 Robert Koehler,
And yeah, the fact that he was seemed like a caricature of the…“
Ha Ha Ha, learn some English aye!
Sorry my fault i thought cos of your previous nickname and some old posts you were of Japanese descent, it was just a feeble attempt at humour anyway
Dude i’d like to introduce you to some ehm characters i know here who are heay D&G customers, it would change your perception of coolness forever…anyway i do embrace my plebeian roots, so no problem in being lumped in the Guido/Chav league. Again it was all meant to be humorous
?? ?? ??? Are you either a Guido or a chav or a Japanese guy named Tetsuya or some combo of the above ???
Now i get it sorry dude the Argh thing was just meant as a cry of pain not a reference to you
This is again meant to be half-facetious. Imho it’s not a matter of color per se but i would say that one of the least desirable common traits of the Anglo cultural sphere is a complete lack of self-humour and a certain sense of self aggrandizement. Now i understand i come from a culture that instead could use a little bit more of seriousness in addressing their menial daily tasks but Christ, the impression i got over the years is that if you wanna make a mortal enemy out of a person from an English speaking country you basically just need to poke fun at him/her.
You know guys sometimes i feel sorry for the painful life your anus must endure
I’ve done stupid things in the past, lots of them. We should forgive the young a little bit, but us older folk should try and set an example. The most stupid thing I’ve done in Korea was wearing a hanbok to my wedding, I looked pretty ridiculous and would have been much better off wearing a decent suit! The Korean relatives thought it was interesting seeing a white bloke in a hanbok, but on reflection it was rather foolish.
Biggest day of my life, marrying my missus and, I’m dressed like a bit of a clown! I’d have looked a little less ridiculous if I’d have worn a kilt!
I know a nod of approval from me is akin to the kiss o death but i subscribe 1000% to what Milton said @ # 165
PS
My first experience with a cabdriver was in Gangnam 3 years ago; just got off the bus from Incheon, didn’t know squat about where i was, i gave him the internet printed map of the hotel street. He didn’t speak any English but still i figured the place was pretty close. Still i insisted he took me there as i was paranoid about getting lost (it happened tragically to me in Tokyo). In the end he just chuckled and drove…literally 10 meters to drop me in front of the hotel.
I started laughing mortified repeating the word sorry profusely. He started laughing too with apparently very good spirit. I gave him 10k w for his patience and got my luggage. Maybe i was lucky but my first contact with Korea was an excellent one
I feel your pain man !!! I did the same thing just to earn the 왕 곰 nickname from missus relatives
U lookin at me ? U lookin at me ??????? 죽을래?
‘I’m dressed like a bit of a clown! I’d have looked a little less ridiculous if I’d have worn a kilt!’ keith
are you sure it was the clothing?
.
I’ll third that – although I actually found the whole process fun. Except that I was in Bali and had severe food poisoning. I still managed to piggy-back the wife and mother around the room for the Pyebaek, and I narrowly avoided a trip to hospital after the reception when all the meds wore off.
It’s probably partly an anglo thing, but I think it may be largely a North American (and probably Northern Euro) characteristic, a point my wife (Korean-Canadian) makes all the time in her regular encounters with complete strangers either trying to entertain or poke fun at her down here. No worse crime in Australia than being precious. On the other hand, a higher degree of decorum and general politeness is probably desireable in the population as well.
Milton: Excellent analysis.
Everyone: I hadn’t been following the Korean reaction, but I think Jieun K. for posting an accessible translation of an eyewitness. Now, here’s the question: would this witness have been in such a hyperbolic “living hell” if it had been an angry ajoshi yelling on the bus? Having seen many such ajoshi, I never had nearly as much of a visceral reaction as the witness did.
Is it possible, just throwing it out there, that the stereotype of the big bad angry black man is making this incident seem worse than it is?
Fullslab — Have a good life, troll.
Yuna you need to understand something, deodrant didn’t even exist in Korea until about 2005.
When I used to get on a subway train during summer time during the year 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 – it was the most horrible smell of “Korean B.O.” terrible.
Lucky, shops starting introducing and advertising deodorant, and by 2009, Korean men were all trying to be “princesses” applying the damn lotion and cosmetics etc.
If you want to start accusing a foreigner of being unhygenic, you should first take a look at your OWN brothers and sisters.
The title of Metro’s post alone, “When the Nigger Starts to Win… …then we all jump in!” is pretty telling of his bias, especially considering that with the exception of a woman who weighed less than half of the dude was the only soul on the bus who seemed to “jump in.”
Awesome.
I’ve been taking the subway, during summer and all, since early 2005 (not so much in the last few years), and I must say I have no idea what you are talking about. No Korean BO has really been noticed by me. (Though I must say Korean OB is pretty nasty.) Koreans are clean folk, in general. Now go to Europe and ride the subway… yuck.
@192 proofread fail
“As someone else said earlier, we’ve all done stupid things in the past.”
Put your hand up if you’ve ever tried to strangle a grandmother.
Don’t go changing. Actually, my old lady is from the same mould. I remember being endlessly embarrassed by the way she dealt with anyone who was marginally out of line in public, no matter who they were, but in hindsight I dig it.
I remember once when I was a kid, I was with my old lady and she was walking the family dog and a weird old farmer with a shotgun was watching from behind his screen door and he said to her across the road, “If you let that dog off the leash I’ll shoot it”. She marched straight up onto his porch til she was standing right up against his screen door and said, “Why don’t you come outside and say it to my face old man?” He shrank away into the shadows of the house and I stood on the road gaping. (Turns out our dog had killed some of his chickens, which sort of explains his argument I suppose).
There was another time some Christian lady asked her if she wanted some leaflets on her god, and mum declined. As we were walking away the lady snuck up and squeezed one into my pocket (I was probably 10 or so) – in a last ditch effort to save my soul behind her back. My mum caught her, snatched the rest of the leaflets off her, tore them up and threw at her face, with some choice words that I’d never heard of at the time, but which became part of my schoolyard vernacular.
Anyway, some people need to be told certain things, and it can be quite cathartic for the teller. Nothing worse than stewing over a slight for days or weeks. (Not that I condone strangling grannies, of course).
Learn more Korean language. When a Korean dude say to a pretty expat girl that “You are 미인(美人),” he does not mean she is “MEAN”.
Anyhow, in some way I feel bad for the black dude. I hope this matter could be resolved by a 사발 of delicious 매실주(plum wine) with the involved Koreans.
Nor I. I did notice the lack of deoderant, but I think Koreans sweat less than us stinking caucasions. And if you want to experience serious BO, visit India. I think there’s actually BO smog in Delhi.
When I used to get on a subway train anytime during the years 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001, I rarely smelled B.O. and when I did, the source of the odor was almost always a visibly unbathed person. I wonder what brought on this sudden epidemic of “Korean B.O.” that needed to be eradicated with deodorant. I’m also curious to know how “Korean B.O.” smells different from other people’s B.O. I always thought all B.O. smelled alike – just plain stinky. Silly me.
Eve #68, sure, we all make mistakes, I just doubt that assault and battery is one of them. Even if they had been pushing his buttons by playing Psy’s “Champion” full blast with a bus load of ajossis barking commands at him, that still isn’t a reason for him to get violent.
Back when I was a mean guy, I used to say to caring and kind-hearted people so understanding of crime committed by blacks: “Stay off my side, you’re going to get me killed with so much help and understanding.” There should be high expectations for black people to act civilized, despite historical oppression or modern subtle inconveniences.
hardyandtiny #107, I agree that the bus bully had every right to tell the 61 year old guy what to do or where to go. As an old saying goes: You have the right to tell me to go to hell and I have the right not to go.
em #154, I guess the reason people can present such different experiences goes back to one’s view of the world and challenges. For some who fall down, the ground is made of cement, for some it is a canyon, for others it is a trampoline.
To Mr. H, wherever you are now, and I hope it is behind bars soon: It was you, not the Koreans on the bus, who disparaged black people.
He was probably smelling his own BO. It must be pretty bad if he has to shower twice a day and wear heavy “perfume”
You guys have all missed the essential point, which is Stay the hell away from public transportation. It’s full of the worst elements. Between Epic Beard Guy and this English teacher, there are far too many characters looking for some kind of rumble.
Riiight, because people ride public transit by choice. What an elitist asshole.
The biological generalization I’ve seen made about East Asians is that they don’t need deodorant. And I agree. I don’t believe that all Koreans are the same in this respect. For instance, my hairy brother needs deodorant, but I never use it.
I don’t need it. My armpits don’t smell.
#192, “Having seen many such ajoshi, I never had nearly as much of a visceral reaction as the witness did.”
Grandfalloon, since you’re presuming that eyewitness article is real, I’ll presume that’s genuine as well. So far, it (witness account of what happened) certainly does seem believable. You won’t see too many loud talking ajoshis overpowering five men, trying to kill a grandpappy by punching and strangle him. Apples and oranges.
- “Is it possible, just throwing it out there, that the stereotype of the big bad angry black man is making this incident seem worse than it is?”
I don’t know maybe, considering, once again, how many ajoshis do you see who overpowers five men, and try to strangle a grandpappy? You’re not gonna see too many big strong black man in Korea who’s acting like this in a public place. Maybe the novelty of it all could have made this worse (to those people who have never seen such a thing), then it really was? Who knows?
#192, “The title of Metro’s post alone, “When the Nigger Starts to Win… …then we all jump in!” is pretty telling of his bias, especially considering that with the exception of a woman who weighed less than half of the dude was the only soul on the bus who seemed to “jump in.”” – cmm
CMM, if you view the video once again, you can clearly hear the Korean men in Korean language, telling the agitated Korean man, to refrain himself, over and over, numerous time. They were trying to calm the Korean man down, trying to defuse the bad situation while the black guy continues to threaten the Korean man. So I don’t know where Metro (or anybody else who keeps suggesting Koreans are ganging up on a black guy) gets the ideal that Korean men are the evil ones, just based on viewing that lone clip.
#196, “Nor I. I did notice the lack of deoderant, but I think Koreans sweat less than us stinking caucasions. ” – hoju saram
No Hoju, we sweat just as much as you guys. For some reason, we smell less BO. Different enzymes? Different hormonal levels? Different body secretions? Who knows?
The Straight Dope, October 4, 2002 : “Do Chinese lack sweat glands in their armpits? Why does spicy food make you sweat?”
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2417/do-chinese-lack-sweat-glands-in-their-armpits
I don’t understand why some people insist on defending the dregs of society. This guy clearly has no business in Korea teaching children. A bad apple slips through and embarrasses the foreigner community and all you hear is how bad “Korean racism” is, how they sympathize with him and undertand what set him off, how Korea needs to change, etc. The reaction is fucking laughable, and yet, oh so predictable.
I understand the need for some people to circle the wagons around their “co-ethnics”. You couldn’t have picked a better scumbag for your civil rights cause. Rosa Parks he aint.
cm 204, good points! A large man in a small space threatening people will elicit a different response than a smaller, older man. To put it another way: If someone whispered in your ear that there was a white dude waiting outside to fight you, wouldn’t you breathe a sigh of relief if you looked out the window to see it was Jerry Seinfeld rather than Hulk Hogan pounding his fists? Or, Steve Urkel rather than Shaq pointing at you?
An excerpt from a book, here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wa9zntiEKeAC&pg=PA121&dq=desmond+morris+orientals+incidentally&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
Read the paragraph about East Asians and B.O..
Anyway, the thread subject is definitely a can of worms. That “Mr. H” guy is an asshat, plain and simple. Are ahjeoshis in Korea asshats? Yes. And they are assholes, plain and simple. Is there racism involved here? Not so plain and simple. But even that issue can be simplified. Because from the outset, most would agree that racism is bad. There’s no controversy about it. Racism is bad and so one agrees to correct culture and people where they are racist. But that means you better not be racist yourself in doing so. If you’re going to be self-righteous about something then you better be more than bonafide. Unfortunately, this isn’t always the case among our critics and analyses here, and that’s where you find the worms.
@201 Which internet forum law is it where one is supposed to add a smiley or something to denote sarcasm, since intended tone isn’t obvious with simple text? Surely you jest here.
“Are ahjeoshis in Korea asshats? Yes. And they are assholes, plain and simple.”
Really?
Uh huh. Sure. If a Korean guy goes out his way to harass you for no reason, and doesn’t seem to be able to control his emotion, then let’s call him the “ahjeoshi.” By definition then, ahjeoshis are those offensive, abusive Korean guys who don’t control themselves.
So that means they are assholes.
#210, I think he means the obnoxious ones, not all. Hey, Koreans don’t like the rude ajoshis too. It’s not just the foreigner thing, you know.
There seems to be some confusion here about the meaning of “ahjeoshi.”
And goddamnit I wish we could agree on a spelling for 아저씨!
A brief scan above shows the following contenders:
ahjeoshi, adjossi, ajushi, ajjoushi, ajussi, ajeoshi, and ajeossi
did I miss any?
“Ajeossi” is the best. Although, for me, “ahjeoshi” just seems more intuitive.
And I’m sure everyone here knows that it means “old/older male,” right? That’s just the basic.
Ajosshi, ajosshi, aaaajoshi (to the tune of Arirang)….
So as I was saying, #214′s right, if you add a strong dose of Yellow privilege.
/seeks shelter
And Yuna,
I’m sorry for having that unnoticed by me (the yellow chick avatar). A member of your fan club humbly hangs his head hangdog-wise.
Here’s the quick loose translation I did for the article that appeared in this link below.
http://pann.nate.com/talk/312659446
Just as a context of this piece, I think the author (witness) was replying to allegations that the men in that bus did nothing, by just standing around, while the elder Korean man got pounded. He was also replying back to allegations that it was racism that caused the black man to go crazy. I have several questions for this account which doesn’t make sense, but what do you think about this account?
——————————– Begin translation ———
Racism against Black person incident?? It could have been a murder case.
I was there with that black guy (as well as with the woman who was trying to intervene), and we got on the same bus at the same station.
When that ‘Crazy Bastard’ got on the bus, he was immediately on the phone, speaking extremely loud.
As for the noise level, we sometimes get those kind of people in our buses.
It went over the boundary where it would have been plenty acceptable for any of our elders to speak up and say, be quiet.
Since that grandfather was sitting right in front of that ‘Crazy Bastard’, it would have sounded even louder for him.
That’s because he was speaking loudly in English “shala shala” right on top of grandfather’s head.
That’s why he probably told the crazy to be quiet.
The Black guy suddenly got angry and he started swearing in Korean “shipalseki”, mixed with English swearing.
The grandfather got surprised and muttered “it was too loud, I just wanted to say to pipe it down, but my English is not good enough” in Korean.
But since this crazy has no way of knowing what was said in Korean, no way was it going to make him calm down
People ask if we just watched or something, but what do they expect us to do, shut his mouth because he’s swearing?
Initially, the video scene where people were just standing around doing nothing, at that time, the crazy was just getting his mouth going.
But then he suddenly started strangling grandfather’s neck.
That’s when people became shocked and began intervening. But as soon as we separated the two, he kept on attacking.
Then he began to punch old guy’s ear drums, pulling his hair, screaming and swearing.
All the guys including the guys sitting in the rear, rushed towards to intervene.
We stopped the bus, opened the rear door and told him to get off, but he refused to get off.
The men dragged him to the front door, but he busted loose and rushed towards the grandfather to strangle him again.
The whole time, the men were all over him, but it was no use.
Then he grabbed onto the bus handle, hanging there like a crazy, laughing and kicking at people.
There could have been more hurt people.
All the people inside that bus was terrorized. Then this lady tried to intervene, but she was held back by some guys.
Everyone tried and did their best.
We tried talking to him (in English) but that didn’t work, and when we used force, he came on like a beast.
It was like he had the body of five Korean guys put together, jumping around in the bus, like a mad man, it was sheer terror.
We were just onlookers?? WOW… unbelievable.. lol..
It was just like in the movies where they have scenes of foreign criminals.
I don’t know who you are, but I would have loved to put you right in front of that big sized crazy bastard, as our leader.
I would have loved to see how you would have done trying to restrain him. It’s easy even for little guys if all you have to do is just mouth off
to become a match to that crazy.
He was after the grandfather, but he acted like if he had a weapon, he would have killed everyone of the passengers, that’s how crazy he was.
I was also afraid that he would target me as well and get beaten to death. It was so terrifying, my eyes were tearing up.
It was 15 to 20 minutes of sheer hell.
Don’t just judge based on watching just one minute of that video.
As for the police, grandfather himself called them.
While everyone was busy, trying to get the crazy guy off the bus,
grandfather called the police himself.
If there was one thing that I felt frustrated against grandfather was that once we got the crazy bastard off of him,
he kept saying, “I just wanted him to be quiet” … he kept saying this
All this did was make the black guy come right back swearing, then begin to strangle him again… this kept repeating.
And that’s why people were telling grandfather to restrain himself.
Some passengers asked that the bus should be diverted to the police station, but since there were passengers,
the bus driver continued the route and proceeded slowly. When other passengers pushed that crazy bastard in
front of the bus door, the driver opened the door.
But he refused to get off and rushed towards the grandfather,
so that’s why the bus kept moving slowly.
When the police arrived, and when the bus was stopped,
nobody asked why aren’t we moving in any facetious way.
When the police asked if there were any witnesses,
everyone in the bus raised their voice to speak up as witnesses.
Some people even gave their business cards to the police.
Anyway, all the men in that bus did their best as they could.
Don’t put them down if you don’t know. They risked themselves and prevented a possible murderer from killing, but
it’s unbelievable that they’re getting flack for this.
I don’t know if grandfather said any racist words.
Even if he did, do you think it’s right to use fists to punch him and strangle him multiple times?
It would have been more than enough with those angry swearing words.
_______________
Video Uploader
The woman you see in that video is the foreigner’s girlfriend. He was making a noise in the bus, and soon as that grandfather told him to be quiet, the foreigner started swearing and became excited. I was filming this incident but I had to quit, as I and about three other men began the intervention. But the foreigner had too big of a body, it was too difficult to restrain him, and because the bus kept moving, all we could do was to separate him from the grandfather. It was like that for about 30 minutes, and it calmed down after the police arrived. One thing I want to say is, if you weren’t there at that time, don’t give me the BS about what the men were doing standing around, or that he’s the same as that foreigner. .
—————————————————————-
Message poster
A lot of netizens seem to be judging this situation based on one minute of video, so I thought I would post this message here. If you don’t even know what really happened, don’t say it’s racism, etc etc and other BS! Don’t watch this one minute video by yourself, then don’t start writing a fiction, instead watch the truth.
——————-end of translation————-
so, was there a girlfriend there or not. the discrepancy casts doubt on all the stories.
That’s one of my questions.
The video uploader says the woman in the video was the foreigner’s girlfriend. The only woman I see, is the one that’s trying to stop the attack. It may very well be that his girlfriend saw that her boyfriend was out of control and tried to stop the fight. Or it could be that the video uploader is mistaking, she’s not the girlfriend. Or it could be this is a fraud post.
That’s why I’m hesitant to decide one way or another.
Deported for shouting at people on a bus? Idiots.
He didn’t just shout at him. He assaulted the guy, too. Left injuries that will take two weeks to heal.
Still idiots?
#220, did you even bother to see the video? It wasn’t just “shouting” at the guy. Go have a look at the video first, then comment please.
“Are ahjeoshis in Korea asshats? Yes. And they are assholes, plain and simple.”
“And I’m sure everyone here knows that it means “old/older male,” right? That’s just the basic.”
So, any male older than you is an asshat. Are you older than anyone
“You see these rocks?”
Not to take away from the injuries that were suffered by the older gentleman, but I have about 1% faith in estimates of how long it will take for someone who was wounded by another to heal in Korea.
to milton #180 :
In addition to what I wrote in #165, I would also add that, when dealing with people of different races/ethnicities, people tend to attribute the negative actions of others to racist motives instead of seeking out more likely and reasonable motives….
____
Diversity brings the worst out in people. Reputable studies have shown that diversity reduces social capital in communities ( in the USA at least). When members of competing ethnic groups interact, they always assume the worst about each other. While I have nothing against particular people traveling and living in other countries, I’m completely and utterly against attempts by some to make every country on Earth multiethnic and multicultural. A lot of countries are homogeneous and they’re doing quite fine like that.
Well, according to the Logic ™, not neccesarily. I haven’t used modifiers like “all” and such.
“When members of competing ethnic groups interact, they always assume the worst about each other. ”
Well, if they are competing groups, then of course. And they are ethnic? Woooooeeeee! *Rolls eyes*
Cm et al:
Respectfully, I have seen ajushis every bit as wild and violent as Mr. H., if not more so. I have seen two such incidents in the last two weeks alone.
αβγδε :
I indeed didn’t express myself clearly.
When you have , in the same country, different ethnic groups, they tend to see each other as competitors rather than as possible collaborators.
Inter ethnic interactions, whether on the political or the personal level, become almost automatically conflictual.
@224 That should be the new title of the MH. “Korea… in blog format” has had its time.
I don’t think there are many of his co-ethnics posting here, so what’s your point.
abcde,
Your initial statement of “A are B” didn’t leave you much room for exceptions, whether you meant to or not. But whatever, let’s end this pettiness.
LOL. “Let’s”?
Which is logically equivalent to what I already wrote, champ. Not much room is still room, that is since you want to be petty about it.
—
ogunsiron,
I understood what you were saying. I just don’t buy it. where are the studies that you refer to? I’d like to see them.
I heard (i mean from other Australians) Sydney is the exception, everytime i expressed my desire to visit the place, which seems in all fairness uber-cool, they all warned me against it, expressing their disgust with how expensive the place is and how rude and quintessentially nuveau riches the locals are.
Everybody instead praised Melbourne, as a truly world-class and enjoyable city and somehow the real capital of Australia
Sounds about right. I lived in Sydney for a couple of years, won’t go back. Melbourne’s really cool though.
And being a wog you will fit in better in Melbourne
Plenty of em In Sydney too, was pretty much weened in a Greek milk bar…
Milk and Freddos,
Christ all my family comes from the East Mediterranean and i’m 1/8 Croatian i guess that makes me Mr. Super wog
“He reportedly said he was wrong and wants to apologize.”
At first, I thought that this would be letting the guy off too easy, but since both Pawi and Sperwer agree, I’ve had to rethink my position, and I now see their point.
Let the punishment fit the crime.
The young man went on his rage for 20 or 30 minutes, according to some witnesses, so let him get down on his knees before the old man and ask for the man’s forgiveness . . . for about 20 or 30 minutes.
Or however long he raged. He’s a young man of boundless energy, so he ought to be capable of managing that ritual act of contrition.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
By chance I found this video of a beautiful black woman talking about Korea..
I guess being beautiful helps a lot..
@242:
I don’t know, in some of the shots she looks a little on the chubby side. But in some shots, she definitely looks good as hell. I say that the juice is worth the squeeze.
Why i’m not surprised to find a Tilly comment about this ?
At she sounds vaguely literate, everytime i watch Cristina on tv i feel so embarassed i wanna sink into the terrain, her voice makes her sound like a complete retard
I want to make a belated attempt to answer this question put by Metropolitician. I am aware that other attempts have been made, and maybe my point is also not new.
On Monday, there were two citizen-made videos taken over the weekend in 성남 that were on the news. I didn’t see the Angry Man On Bus (AMOB) video until quite a bit later in the day. The one I saw first – and from at least two different filming angles – was of a young car driver screaming through the crowded streets of Seongnam like a madman, causing a Korean policeman to fire three bullets into his car, one of them striking the driver in the leg. The story got a lot of airplay on TV, and the footage was shown at least twice each time. The big issue was also the fact that a Korean cop actually had to fire his weapon in anger. And some people were struck by the car as it careered.
Ironically, I didnt see the AMOB footage, also taken in Seongnam, until I came onto this blog. It was shocking to watch. Why? Not because he was a black man, but because his behavior was so over-the-top.
A confession – I was also involved in a tete-a-tete on public transport. Last year I took a bus home one night about several rounds of 막걸리 and 동동주 at the excellent 백세주마을 near 종각. I was standing near the back, behind the rear door, hoping that a seat would empty and I would have a place to sit. A stop or 2 later, three 아저씨 got on, also well lubricated. One of them pushed roughly past me without so much as a “by your leave” in the manner of middle-aged Koreans, which prompted me to say something along the lines of “hey quit pushing” in Korean.
He got a bit upset, tempers flared, and I found him pushing his elbow into my throat. We exchanged some words, but nobody on the full bus around us said squat. I can’t remember which of us made the suggestion to get off the omnibus and handle it like men, but it was certainly there. One of his buddies did at some point step in and defused tensions, and I ended up seated next to this latter fellow and we got off at the same stop, and had made friends.
About 6 months later, when I ran into the same two guys (the third one was not there this time) on the same bus late one weekday evening after some drinking, we recognized each other. I was embarrassed to talk about our first meeting with them in Korean, but the peacemaker seemed keen – since he started – so there we were, talking like old friends. When I got off this time, a promise was made that if there was ever to be a third encounter on the bus, we would all get off together and go drinking. It hasn’t happened yet, but I don’t mind if it does.
My (still woefully imperfect) facility with the Korean language helped a lot in the initial confrontation – but it could also have gone the other way, too. It was my commonsense that over-rided my “drunken rice”-addled brain to tell myself “this is not an issue worth fighting a man on a crowded bus over.” And so the whole thing de-escalated.
The reason why the AMOB video went so far is not because there was an altercation on a bus one Saturday night between a foreigner and a Korean man, nor (I believe) because the Angry Man was black. I believe this video gained the traction (thanks, Marmot) that it did because the AM went, in Aussie terms, “troppo”, or just went bat-shit.
If you don’t believe me, watch the video again three times in a row, and turn the volume up real high so you cannot ignore his maniacal cackle. (Then there is the part we didn’t see, where he allegedly hung from the handles and kicked.) That’s more than just mad. That’s freaky mad. That’s mad mad!
Why did the video of the confused driver in Seongnam gain equal initial traction? Because he drove like a friggin nut and a cop had to shoot it. Let’s face it – both of these videos could be the kind of stuff to end up on a FOX “when ….. go bad” type video clip compilation program. The video of me exchanging words on my drunken bus ride would not have made equally shocking television viewing.
Sure, there are issues in Korea around black people, and the AM being black made it worse, at least for some. And the fact that he was a 덩치 큰 black guy also made it worse. But the thing that really captured people’s attention was his crazed manner.
Now, I don’t mean to say that I know anything about what this man is like when he is in the company of friends, when he is teaching his class, or when he is at peace. I happen to think that we all have it within us to go off half-cocked (even to the point of killing another human – yes, even our Zen monk Robert) under certain circumstances. However, I wouldn’t have thought that these circumstances on that bus on that evening would have warranted such a reaction.
#244
I’m guessing he’s out of Tropicana in his fridge.
There seem to be two conversations going on here — the needless (but more fun one) about whether the guy was “justified” on his “going off” or what an asshole he was, how overboard he went, how he should be deported, flayed, filleted, bow down before the Korean people, etc — and the one that is far more interesting to me, which is the larger patterns of representation here, which I have been talking about LONG before this bus incident.
This IS an appropriate time to bring up the fact that foreigners are harrassed at what I consider to be higher numbers than before. This is the “teachable moment” that the subject has been brought up in the Korean media, although in its most sensationalist form, and in the specific way that happens to NOT represent reality for most confrontational situations between foreigners and Koreans. Sorry, no matter what you say, nothing convinces me that foreigners — no matter how rude or culturally inconsiderate some can be — go around physically threatening or assaulting Korean people. Korean crime stats don’t bear that out, and you can bet a scandal-hungry media would certainly pick up on it were this to be the case.
The point here is that the last several times I brought nice, well-heeled, well-behaved affluent young professional friends to Korea, we were all at least verbally harassed by older Korean men. A pair of friends were physically assaulted on the subway. Not even two months ago, me and a pair of nerdy grad school types were standing on the street waiting for a cab to take them back to the hotel when a drunk man came up and verbally accosted us before seeming to want to lay hands on people, so we left and found another spot.
Am I a magnet for this? No, and I think people attract attention in different ways. Being an older, friendly-looking white man who always wears a white hanbok around the city has a way of perhaps marking you a bit differently than I might be, or a young, strapping 22-year-old man with a young Korean girl on his arm, or a black man in the Shinchon Megabox with accompanying Korean woman, whom I watched people snicker and a few even point at while they walked the gauntlet down the lobby hallway.
I am part of and run programs for large groups of young people coming into Korea every summer, every academic year, including the Fulbright ETA program, which is full of a bunch of bright-eyed, nerdy kids who are in the middle of intensive culture and language training from every July, and are ready to dive into a life of a year in the countryside and a host family. A few years ago, we traveled in a large group to have their first drink in Seoul and out of the classroom in a Shinchon bar, which attracts a lot of attention. The last guy in was hit over the back of the head with a metal folding chair which required dozens of stitches — no one even saw the attackers. That same year, a group of thugs beat the one of our grantees got beat up by a group of men in a Korean disco. We have far more reports of far less serious encounters, left and right. I have students in our summer program being assaulted, and my anecdoctal observations of assaults on women, which I also reported on my blog, have now been backed up by crime stats that showed a similar pattern enough to start a series of reporting on this matter in the Korean news.
I have a connection who sits high in a government public health position who talks about this very problem — that petty attacks and assaults seem to have skyrocketed, but the government isn’t quite sure how to frame the issue, nor is it sure what the causes are. I say the answers are somewhat obvious — there are a lot of older men, many of whom feel displaced or disempowered by a shiftly-changing society, a much larger number of whom are forced out of the work force, a number of whom (my connections emphasizes this point) are mentally ill in a society that leaves no social or clinical space for this, all of whom feel bitter and angry to those whom they feel have been pushing them out — youth, women, and anyone who seems to be an odd fit — foreigners, who symbolically “take” their jobs, women, and even national pride. Which is all exacerbated by the problem of excessive drinking and public drunkenness, with sentiments fueled up by overwhelmingly nasty media representations — from the foreign male sex predator to the nasty “bitch” image of the “된장녀.”
None of this is hard to believe or mysterious — a sensationalist media, a country that is frustrated by an runaway private education industry focused too much on English education, the increase in the social visibility of foreigners, pre-existing xeophobic sentiments that run farther back in time than any particular, recent incidents, on top of an increasingly bitter, displaced, and angry older male population that is increasingly under/unemployed, bitter, and often drunk and looking for the first person to blame and take it out on — this scenario isn’t so fantastic.
I’m about making larger observations here, while many at the Hole seem to be caught up in pigeon-holing me as “playing the race card” or “defending this guy” or saying I’m stuck in some Farrakhan fantasy” — sorry, this is just fucking stupid. You don’t have to agree with me to see that I’m actually beating a dead horse here, that of trying to address what I see as a larger problem, one this particular incident BROACHES a conversation about, but does not address in terms of its expression on the ground, in the particular form this problem takes.
I’ve been talking about this subject, in this very way, for far longer than any of the incidents in the news, so give credit where it’s due, by stop trying to say I’m representing/saying shit I didn’t say.
I’m not “defending” this guy. The point — pay attention — is that the particulars of this case don’t really even matter. I am more concerned with 1) how this individual incident can and will be spun into the greater “dangerous, criminal foreigner” narrative and 2) how specifically this might result in policies that will make our lives here as foreigners harder, while 3) trying to bring attention to what I think is the actual problem and getting the Korean public to think about a pattern that few might actually even know exists (my Korean friends are constantly fascinated by spending time with me and seeing how I am treated, getting a view from the “other side.”)
And YES, I do understand the urge to “go off” because I’ve been successfully keeping myself from doing so for the last 10 years or so. But the harassment is only INCREASING while I become older, less flexible, and less forgiving, and THAT is why I avoid the subway as much as possible. I don’t know why the subway leads to bad luck for me, but I DO know enough to never take the #1 line, if possible, since it the population of drunk, bitter, older men with axes to grind is far higher there.
And I take that anger and try to write about it, give others who experience it concrete ways to deal with it and leave the situation safely (which is why I wrote my “Tips to Avoid Being Assaulted in Korea” post) — good for you if you’ve never been harrassed, you get smiles, kindly old ladies hold your bags on the subway, and wizened, silver-haired gentlemen brush off the seats next to them and invite you over to regale you with tales of the olden Chosun days gone by.
I meet a lot of nice people in my daily life, I interact with, photograph, and laugh with a lot of them — being friendly, open, and social is a key to actually getting a major part of my work done, from shooting people in the street to teaching in all kinds of places. But I have also learned to be good at keeping out of trouble by keeping my guard up, planning ahead, and keeping my cool.
But “there, before the grace of god, go I,” as I said in my post — and it’s why I take the buses. I’m not justifying anyone’s actions — again, I have to spell it out — but I have real fear, which I’m trying to channel in a positive direction:
I can handle myself, I can let it roll off my back. If I were some hothead, you would have read about me in the newspapers a LOOOONG time ago. But the real reason I avoid taking the subways is not because my skin is too thin to take an insult, racial slur, or three, but because I really fear what would happen if someone were to lay a hand on me, or God forbid, my wife or girlfriend. Because I literally think years of pent-up frustration would bust up from the surface, and watching my woman being slapped across the face, or thrown to the ground, while being called a “nigger’s whore” (kudo’s to the person I know who took that) — I literally fear losing control and doing something I might spend the rest of my life in prison for.
Which is why I take surface transportation. For some reason, ajussis don’t try to outright assault me there.
And if you don’t understand that, well — you just don’t fucking understand. Leave it at that.
And for the person who says I delete comments I don’t agree with on the blog — you’re a bald-faced, fucking liar and I’m calling you on it. I never delete comments unless they’re completely devoid of any content and are the standard Stormfront/white supremacist sillinness, and even one of my comment-enemies gave me props for letting him have at me this week, even when he was sure his comment wouldn’t make it through. I have to batch-approve my comments, since I get a lot of spam and bullshit, and even the computer-generated comments that look human — and I’m not in front of the computer all day. If your comment doesn’t appear, wait half a minute before whining I “deleted” you — some of us don’t actually LIVE in front of our computers, flameboys.
Criticize me, disagree with me, but don’t put shit in my mouth I didn’t say, or say I do things I don’t.
Well only thing that comes up to my mind in response to the beauty @ # 247 is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
Metropolitician:
Some of us understand the broader point you are trying to make.
However, you also asked a specific question about why this video went viral and became a big issue. I tried to address that above. Maybe you missed that. Robert (and others) and I agree and understand that sometimes you get mad. But there’s mad and then theres’ just silly mad.
Back to your bigger point. I get it. It’s not that I don’t get it. But you and I have had this conversation before. I have heard many of your ancecdotes before – and I don’t say that disparagingly, I believe those events happened as you told them. The thing is, I just don’t agree with you. Nor does Robert, and nor do some others above, who have been here long enough to remember the 1990s (and in some cases further back) – we think things in the main have improved here, not deteriorated.
Yes, there are always egregious assaults. But I don’t agree with your pattern analysis.
#247, I think a number of people were put off by your title, as I was admittedly:
“When the Nigger Starts to Win…
…then we all jump in!”
I have couple of questions for you. Do you believe your personal experiences are indicative of what black people go through in Korea? And I’ve asked this question already earlier in the thread Why do you think there are so many conflicting opposite experiences in Korea? I’d like to know what’s your view why there are two opposite camps of experiences in a same country?
@247
God here we go again… things be getting worse and worse for us foreigners in Korea.
How many years are you gonna march out the tired stories about your fearful avoidance of the subways or your young Fullbright friend getting hit in the head with a metal folding chair in Shinchon? Christ on a bike.
Is it too late to add Unquenchable Persecution Complex to the list?
@250 Good questions.
I can’t read anything by the Metropolitician without thinking of this masterful post a few years back by whitey:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/07/06/live-from-korea/#comment-295637
pwnage.
Yangachi: that’s just silly ad unnecessary,
I know how this dickhead can make up for his transgressions. He can become a spokesperson for Dokdo. With his menacing demeanor, he will convince Japan that they don’t want to mess with “his rocks.” Suddenly he’s endearded himself to the nation, and will ride the buses free for life (kinda like Hiddinck on Korean Air).
αβγδε #234 :
This article :
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/
is about a famous (usa) study done by a well known social scientist at Harvard ( Robert Putnam). To make a story short, he found that diversity had a detrimental effect on community life. As a “liberal” he was extremely upset about this finding. I believe that he’s working on researching strategies to make diversity work. Since I’m not a “liberal”(USA sense of the word), I don’t see diversity as this unqualified good that justifies herculean efforts in bringing about.
ogunsiron,
What I get by reading Putnam is that diversity is increasing across the world as a result of immigration. It will continue to increase, as Putnam notes. Putnam, however, does not say that that diversity has no benefits. He cites creativity and economic growth as advantages of immigration and ethnic diversity.
In addition, Putnam is careful to note that his findings do not support what is known as “conflict theory.” Putnam instead proposes what he calls “constrict theory.”
And here is what he says:
In short, social distrust goes up as ethnic diversity increases, but not in the sense of driving greater solidarity among co-ethnics against others, as someone might be tempted to think, or as you seem to be suggesting.
Putnam’s research shows that increases in ethnic diversity has effects on civic engagement and social capital in ways that are NOT related to ethnicity — which would be quite beside the point for those interested in deriving a sensationalist ideological gloss or meaning from Putnam’s research; (although, scientifically, the question of why ethnic diversity should correlate with what Putnam calls “hunkering down”, or, social withdrawal remains interesting.)
Finally, time is important for Putnam, as he states the need to extend his research findings dynamically, that is, over a large span of time, and he notes this:
“In the medium to long run, on the other hand, successful immigrant societies create new forms of social solidarity and dampen the negative effects of diversity by constructing new, more encompassing identities. Thus, the central challenge for modern, diversifying societies is to create a new, broader sense of ‘we’.”
And that’s a stance that doesn’t seem compatible with the drift in your posts here.
–
Anyway, thanks for the reference.
What I read by Putnam: E Pluribus Unum
Metropolitician:
With all due respect, if you could kindly bear with me here:
A guy with an ethnic background similar to yours commits an act that is patently flagrant—in any way one looks at it (and no one with a right mind would act the way he did upon being told by a much weaker elderly man to “shut up.”)
Then, you appear, saying you’re not defending anyone, and start seguing into a bitter tirade about how you (and your friends)—all good model citizens and polar opposites of the guy on the bus, I’m respectfully sure—have been victimized for years by the society at large, or rather, by the social fringe.
Do you see it? I don’t think that is the strongest tack you can take to further your cause/grievance.
I’m truthfully (and sometimes hopelessly) empathic; I feel for you, but I think it’s time you reconsidered your paradigm of thought as to how to bring about change, away from focusing on the hurt.
If you’ve ever felt you haven’t gained much traction pushing the “issues” into public debate, there must be a reason—and a good one at that.
Hamel: I’ll admit i conduct myself with the demeanor of a troglodyte under certain circumstances but let’s consider the issue with a cold head for a second…
A growing trend of serious anti-foreigner violence in Korea ? If that was the case and Korea resembled the post-Berlin Wall collapse Eastern European inferno described @ # 247 (a description which btw fits more places like Ohio), a sensationalist American Media complex, always ready to avidly jump on stories of Americans mistreated abroad, would report about it non-stop.
Instead we get nothing, nada, zero, nix. A few Google queries about Seoul dangers return instantly pretty much unanymous views of a “safe”, “cool”, “friendly” metropolis, where elementary school kids go home alone without any annoyance.
Even here, even among posters not particularly in love with the place, nobody seems to subscribe to the dangeorus xenophobic Seoul tale.
In business and diplomatic communities, at least the ones i dealt with Korea gets constantly praised for their ease of business, the good living conditions and the overall sense of hospitality.
So when you see things nobody else does see either you’re a genius with clairvoyant-like talents or you’re sic et simplicter delusional.
Me personally thinks delusions are more abundant than talent in this day and age, especially among the ranks of the lechees lving a fringe life around the fashion industry…i come from the fashion capital of that world, i know those types pretty well, but i guess now i’m digressing
The sister of my oldest friend in Korea, a white girl, was walking home from the pub in Itaewon one night when she was grabbed by a group of Korean men and thrown into the back of a limo. They kicked the hell out of her, tore her clothes off, gave her two black eyes and threw her out of the car while it was driving along the Namsan ring road. How’s that for xenophobia?
I don’t think I have heard anyone involved in business in a big way in korea proclaim the ease of doing business here, except in ‘diplomatic’ situations. Indeed quite the contrary, I know of numerous companies and personnel who after their experiences here are in a hurry to repeat the experience.
Good living conditions and At least in diplomatic circles overall sense of hospitality I would tend to agree with.
I also wouldn’t say Metro’s experiences are delusional, all who have been here for some time have probably suffered or witnessed some xenophobic and racist incidents, I have seen many. (Although ironically enough one of the worst I have seen was a big black guy going off on one and assaulting an elderly white guy for some imagined slight).
The issue is the statistical weight Metro places on these, i.e. None.
He recites these same examples time and again as evidence of worsening situation, but dismisses anyone else’s anecdotal evidence that in fact the situation whilst engrained is improving.
I certainly feel that direct overt incidents against me and mine are much less now than before, and certainly rarely of a physical nature. Normally looks or verbal assaults but not much more.
Basically I feel more safe in Seoul than in my own home town.
What worries and affects me and various aquaintances more is the insideous behind the back door racism and xenophobia in the workplace and similar.
Whoops, early comment should read
“who are NOT in a hurry to repeat the experience”
Hey, Koreans are special, they’re different than the rest of us. Koreans are focused on family, education, and health. All you have to do is “adapt” to these ideas and carry yourself properly in public, and all will be fine……
Take the time to learn the Korean language – at least enough – whereas you can hear some drunk call your wife a bitch or your friend a nigger. It’s a great experience, and you’ll never regret it. It’s a wonderful country. And, don’t forget to carry yourself properly!
#252 CMM — Pwnage. By the mental midget Whitey, who actually mentions my school names MORE than I have, and seems to be the only one really bothered by it?
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/07/06/live-from-korea/#comment-295974
Judge for yourself.
You guys talking about the like 3-4 times in 8 years I’ve actually mentioned my school names on purpose, and specifically when I’m writing for a Korean audience to introduce myself and explain why I’m “qualified” to make specific criticisms about English education need to get OVER it. I don’t talk about it all the time, but I’m certainly not going to fucking apologize for it.
Something from kushibo that made me chuckle:
LOL!
Ethnic diversity is the independent variable in his research. Civic engagement and social capital are the dependent variable. The changes in the dependent variable, i.e. the effects on civic engagement and social capital, were observed in his research to be affected by changes in the independent variable, i.e. ethnic diversity. The effects on civic engagement and social capital were found to be related to ethnic diversity and thus by definition related to ethnicity.
Here’s another study with findings similar to Putnam’s.
ECW,
I nearly smacked my forehead after reading 267. You post an empty tautology that neither addresses my point nor shows you have understood Putnam’s work.
And, then, the paper by Kümmerli is NOT similar to Putnam’s. In fact, I’m not even sure how Kummerli defines his “similarity index”, except that he seems to base that value on data pertaining to the incidence of “foreigners” in communities in Switzerland.
Kümmerli is making a point about “Evolutionary Policing Theory” which is totally different from the concerns that make up Putnam’s work, neither of which you have understood.
Amazing.
It isn’t “totally different” at all. Obviously things like cooperation, self-restraint, crime rates are related to civic engagement and social capital.
You don’t understand statistical studies. The only thing Putnam’s research showed was that changing the independent variable had effects on the dependent variable. It only showed that the observed effects on civic engagement and social capital were related to one thing which has to do with ethnicity. Anything else, from him or you or anyone, is just speculating or theorizing about the research.
I’ll frame it in your language, since you continue to not understand. What I wrote is relating to “dependent variables.” The noteworthy thing here is that the nature of those dependent variables in itself isn’t racial! That’s what I meant. If you have trouble understanding that from my posts, then that’s something you should have understood by reading Putnam.
Now, pay attention, I understand that we are talking about these variables in relation to an independent variable which itself is about race. As I noted, the correlation is scientifically interesting to me. Namely, why should greater racial diversity anywhere lead to social anomie? I don’t get it. And neither does Putnam. But I do get that the nature of this anomie itself is not racial and does not support conflict theorists.
I’m sorry, ECW, but one more round of replies from you that show you have no understanding should allow me to safely conclude something about you. And I don’t think you can guess what that is, all things considered.
Metro #265, I agree there’s no reason for you to apologize for occasionally mentioning your credentials, especially as you discuss issues related to your research. But then, I don’t see what it adds–It is like an athlete talking about all of the great trainers he has learned from and the amount of training he has gone through. I mean, so what, man, just get to the point! After all of the talking, you still have to put the boxing gloves on or lace up your shoes…
I don’t know about whitey’s mental abilities, but still, that list was damn funny, no matter what his or her intellectual credentials may be.
Jieun K #257, I feel your sincerity in your post to Metro, person to person, human to human, trying to understand his view. But you’d be better off talking to him as human to black social critic.
Instead of trying to understand what a fair-minded human would think about someone getting physically violent with people on a bus, it is better in the case of Metro to ask, “What would a black social critic think about a black man getting physically violent with others?” KFC kills chickens, the mafia engages in crime, politicians spend money, tax collectors collect tax money–social critics are naturally negative and focus on problems in society. Plus, in asking the question, you must consider the context of Korean society, the Korean media, and a bunch of other factors that social critics tend to discuss, meaning you can’t have a human-to-human conversation without “but….” He even mentioned at one point that the particular facts in this case aren’t relevant, he is more interested in patterns and issues in Korea.
Metro may be able to suggest something for you to read to better understand the frustration that some or many black Americans have. I’d suggest “Rage of a Privileged Class” by Ellis Cose. In it, he details from interviews with many professional blacks the frustration that many feel, despite progress, about various slights and inconveniences. It was published in the early 1990s when I still talked about race more than I do now, even then it was an eye-opener for me to hear professional blacks expressing so much rage against whites and society.
If you read it then you will probably have a sense for the frustration that Metro displays when he talks about wanting to go off like the bus bully did. During the 1960s there were a number of black intellectuals who justified violence against others because of historical oppression, Eldridge Clever justified raping white women as revenge, over the years I’ve read and heard from other blacks their desire to harm or hurt white people, and some even expressing understanding about various black criminals and mass murderers who target white people.
* * *
“I am writing this essay sitting beside an anonymous white male that I long to murder. I felt a ‘killing rage.’ … I wanted to stab him softly, to shoot him with the gun I wished I had in my purse. And as I watched his pain, I would say to him tenderly ‘racism hurts.’”
–bell hooks
What I wrote is relating to “dependent variables.” The noteworthy thing here is that the nature of those dependent variables in itself isn’t racial!
The dependent variables are simply magnitudes that change with the magnitude of the independent variable. You can speculate or theorize all you want about the “nature” of them. But what the study found is that the “nature” of the dependent variables is, or is related to, race or ethnicity.
So are thre no updates on what finnaly happened to this guy?
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