It will be hard to say it’s just a hype, or it’s never going to sell beyond Asia now.
Apparently the rising popularity of K-pop and Korean dramas and other pop culture has hit sky-high in Europe.
It’s not everyday that you get to be on the front page of Le Figaro, and be featured in a whole page of the culture section in Le Monde describing the phenomenon.
Followed by a Flashmob (here in Paris in front of the Louvre) protest to ask to add a second SM concert in Europe (the first one was sold out in minutes) they got their wish and the SM “singers” (or employees, I like to call them) landed at Charles De Gaulle. Much to the employees’ surprise, there were around 1000 crazy fans at the airport.
The Le Monde article (in French) entitled “The Korean Wave wins Europe” starts by describing the complete conquering of Asia (Japan, China, and SE Asia) by the K-pop, and goes onto write about the “mechanism” of making a star by management agencies such as the SM entertainment, which involve discovering, hard dance and voice training, (sometimes Korean language training when they include group members from other countries such as Thailand or China), the image-making (sometimes involving plastic-surgery) and the promotion. Both articles mention that a lot of the fans initially came to love K-pop and dramas via being interested in Japanese pop culture (anime,manga etc) first.
Still, as I deem the Wondergirls venture into the US by JYP an epic fail, it seems the lesson to be learnt is to stick to Korean way and the Asian way, and let the fans come to you, rather than you try take it to them before you are wanted desperately.
All I could think, while reading the piece was how the French would be singing it so badly with the new romanization of lyrics.
PS Regarding the awful new romanization, Joel’s excellent post titled Dean’s Office Freedom contained a video of the students starting their song with “Where’s the 뽄뿌 Bonbu?” That’s exactly what I mean. The Koreans are already pronouncing it 뽄뿌, along with all those French Justin Bieber fans who all want to learn Korean for the first time..
{ 245 comments… read them below or add one }
Rubbish. We all know nothing is true until the expats on Marmot’s Hole say it is true. Clearly, Le Monde is paid off by Koreans. You can tell because it never mentions Japan.
A nice post, yuna! Thank you
theKorean wrote,
“We all know nothing is true until the expats on Marmot’s Hole say it is true.”
Hahaha, thanks for the morning giggle! As someone suggested here at the MH, I think it would be nice to have thekorean as a guest poster. Just my opinion
sigh. i miss real music/musicians…
Bullocks. We all know nothing is true until a major Korean daily quotes 2ch in a bid to start a flame war:
http://joongang.joinsmsn.com/article/aid/2011/06/10/5274810.html?cloc=nnc
And thekorean would always be welcome. Not that he’d want to, of course.
There, fixed it for you.
And, it’s true and not hype, Kpop. Count it!
Pawii, this is your cue to say “told you so!”
#1 That’s why I waited patiently for a day until I got the Le Monde and the Le Figaro (non-Korean) media reports on this, before I posted. To silence those who say it’s the popularity which is hyped in Korea.
#3 I am a trained classical musician, I like everything from Bjork to Kim Kwangsuk, Shostakovich to Bach but I still like this (minus the horrendous romanization) ! btw this is the first 동방신기 song I’ve heard, ironically because it was used at the end of a Japanese drama. They used the Japanese version, so I was so surprised to find it was 동방신기.
#4 Ouch. 2ch should be struck off the list of any source of reports written in Korean media.
For the French Speakers here is a French report on K-pop.
The business side of k-pop is definitely happening. The ensemble “Super Junior” (슈주) comes in several flavors: Super Junior T (Trot), Super Junior M (“Mandarin” who just sold out a concert in Taiwan), Super Junior KRY (trio) and this large boy group is the creation of SM Entertainment as well.
http://www.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Super_Junior
Personally, I like some of the songs done by 2AM or 박효신 much more than what is coming out of the states nowadays.
And here a Bloomberg report – really interesting. 5 stars.
Judas, Judas! Judas! Judas! ~ GAH GAH!
France seems especially multiethnic. Among those crowds of Kpop fans, I see Arabic-looking folks, Africans, Asians, and, of course, Caucasians. Then again, aren’t French peoples sort of Arabic in the first place?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z21xuOMuhJU
#9 That’s true as well, and something I was sure somebody would bring up. At least they’re not Korean kyopos – most Asians would be Vietnamese etc.
However, looking more closely at the demographic, it’s definitely not just the young minority, it includes a lot of older white people too. Also, it’s not just the French, but other European countries. I have doubts about it reaching the UK though. UK is too much dependent on the superiority of English as the language of lyrics.
We are talking about a country who likes mimes and Jerry Lewis… c’mon people!
Regarding lyrics, there is really no reason that a Korean group could not put out an English version of most of its tunes. I guess the only possible thing that might bother some people might be the look and feel of some of the groups (the melodramatic style of “2AM” for example) though I’m sure quite a few women would not be put off by such.
Sucks when the people of countries you formally colonized decided to move in with you…
K-pop has almost no appeal among the second-generation KA crowd stateside. (I hate the whole genre myself — can’t stand any of it let alone anything not sung in English. The only time I’ll ever watch K-crap is on youtube albeit expressly for the eye candy and nothing else.) That said, there are quite a few KAs living and working Seoul who make a nice living off the whole K-pop industry on the promotion and production side. Hat’s off to them — I personally couldn’t do it b/c I think it all sucks.
This French kpopper is the bomb-diggity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmWUCXQ94Xs
So meoshiseo. ^_______^
Which explains exactly how many Japanese must feel about the Korean Zainichi who show little intention of moving anywhere.
@8675309:
Yeah, I call bullsh*t on this one Jenny. But then again, what’s the god damn point. It’s just another one of your stupidly sweeping statements backed up by nothing.
@αβγδε:
Agreed. Moreover, I’d hit that (in the totally consensual, non-DSK fashion that is).
Projecting — as usual.
Huh, Yuna…
The article in Le Monde is not really praising K-pop as a musical genre (typical boy band fare with a shelf life of a couple of years is how its bands are described). It’s actually about “political marketing”, how the South Korean government is using K-pop to market itself and the country, and how it’s managed to gain some popularity in Europe, mainly through Facebook, the article claims (it also explains K-pop is seen by its European fans as being more accessible than Japan pop music because the costumes aren’t as outlandish and the tunes are more Americanized…I’m just paraphrasing the article, again).
Oh, and the article in Le Figaro is pure fluff.
As WK pointed out, being loved in France and sucking are not mutually exclusive.
I like my K-pop vids best with the sound turned down — it is derivative stuff, derived from music I scorned even when I was the target audience age — but I am fascinated with Korea’s cultivation of soft power through pop. A good argument for freedom in a region darkened by China and North Korea.
“but I am fascinated with Korea’s cultivation of soft power through pop”
As I was saying in my previous post, it’s essentially what the Le Figaro article is about. It’s essentially praising Korea for it (no surprise, it’s what France does with it’s own cultural exports).
‘The article in Le Monde is not really praising K-pop’
bitter asshole always got make a show, no?
i was reading an article about a month or so ago. it seems that the tiny country of korea has an entertainment industry worth 2 billion dollars a year. the k wave ain’t no hype nor is it a fad cuz fads don’t last for decades.
this is the rise of korea.
@slim:
Think a little bit more about that one. Here’s a little bit to help you along: consider the source.
@pawikirogii:
Dude, you need to shut the f*ck up.
you know why i put that in there, charles.
CT “Think a little bit more about that one. Here’s a little bit to help you along: consider the source.”
Actually WK was spot on: Jerry Lewis (to which I would add Johnny Halliday — who is French and sucks)
Any comment thread that somehow drags Tilly’s (snotty, execrable) personality into it goes downhill quickly. I appreciate his links and translations, though.
btw, if you’re interested in korean television but don’t know what show to get because your time is precious, then i would recommend the sleeper hit of last year called ‘the joseon x files’ (기찰비록). the show is cut above the usual k drama fare with a very strong storyline. add to that luscious photography and fantastic costumes and you got yourself a winner. this show was the first time i saw a k drama end episodes with cliff-hangers. if you just watch one k show this year, watch the ‘joseon x files’. however, watch carefully because the director is very sneaky and clever in presenting clues.
If what you mean by “snotty, execrable” personality as pointing out the limitations in your thinking, then guilty as charged. Let’s strip your thinking down to its core and consider again: The French love/like it, ergo it must “suck.” Really?
In the influential film magazine Cahiers du Cinéma, a critic like Francois Truffaut lauded the genius of film directors ensconced in the American film industry such as John Ford, Howard Hawkes, and Alfred Hitchcock. But according to your (and WangKon936′s) flaky way of thinking, those directors “suck” because they were praised in an influential French film magazine. C’mon, does that make any sense to you?
Also consider the fact that crime dramas that are and were wildly popular and beloved in the US are also quite popular in France:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/world/europe/17france.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2
‘Also consider the fact that crime dramas that are and were wildly popular and beloved in the US are also quite popular in France’
per the nyt, american crime dramas are so popular in france, the french actually started to demand to have their miranda rights read to them even though there is no miranda rights in france. lol.
Someguy, I read enough French to understand that the Le Monde article was not an over-the-top praise, but a very accurate portrayal (it’s true what it says), and that’s why I say it described the mechanism/well-oiled machinery that goes into producing the finished product – including the plastic surgery, like my link in #8 to the Bloomberg report which says essentially the same sort of thing. However I don’t think it was critical per se.
After all the title says it all.
I knew it! It’s all lies, LIES!! Korean government staged the whole thing!!!
‘I knew it! It’s all lies, LIES!! Korean government staged the whole thing!!!’
i’m sure there a few here angry to see white girls swooning over korean guys. lol.
hanok as part of the k wave? never say never when the subject is korea.
http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2011/05/31/next-in-the-%E2%80%9Ckorean-wave%E2%80%9D-%E2%80%A6-houses/?mod=google_news_blog
Wow, that’s very interesting Pawi, thanks for the link. It’s probably better than exporting nuclear power plants, though less money.
It’s also my dream to live in a Hanok like my grandparents had before it had to be bulldozed for a road. They had a pomegranate tree in the yard/garden and got their water from a hand water-pump right in the yard. And also to complete the picture there was a white typical Korean mongrel Jindo-ish dog which lived under the maru called 뽀삐 Poppie. Now they are in a dingy old apartment with a poodle, called 예삐 Yeppie.
i wish i could live in a hanok, yuna.
@ αβγδε (#15),
I appreciate you for the cover video. Fascinating! Let me introduce a link too. ^__^
This French girl amazes me. She translated K-pop songs into French and sang them.
http://youtu.be/KBxY3bKXQSc
Sad to see many nice Hanoks have been bulldozed for no good reason..
Anyways, since you guys talk about Hanok, the beautiful Hanoks in the TV drama, “토지” (based on the novel by 박 경리), have just come to my mind
http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/kimchi-chronicles/
Yuna, before I begin a strafing run, please clarify views with answers to a few questions:
Sky-high compared to what?
Do you realize that the majority of the criticism of the kpop hype machine is that the media coverage in Korea does not come close to reflecting the reality, very often makes claims of global successes that are nothing of the sort, and is primarily interested in hyperbolic exaggerations and ridiculous puffery with nationalistic overtones, without any perspective or context?
Who claimed that kpop would “never sell beyond Asia”? Do you understand the difference between that claim (which is a strawman) and the claim that kpop would never be popular beyond Asia? And do you understand that entrance into a market does not in and of itself equal being popular in that market?
If you stopped 100 French citizens at random in Paris and asked them if they were interested in kpop or kdramas, how many do you think would answer in the affirmative? How about doing the same thing in every country throughout Europe? Is there any country in which you think more than five people would even know what the fuck kpop is?
If kpop is at a “sky-high” level in terms of popularity in Europe, why don’t any of the dozens and dozens of large music festivals on the continent book kpop acts? Shouldn’t they be a huge draw and sell hundreds of thousands of tickets if your assertions are accurate? Why isn’t WORLD STAR Rain headlining Glasto alongside Beyonce and U2? Forget headlining…why can’t a kpop act even get on one of the tiny, shitty stages at any major (or minor) festival anywhere outside Asia?
There have been kpop concerts in the US for the last decade in LA, NYC, and Vegas, selling more tickets than the measly 12,000 for the Paris shows. Would you also say that the popularity of kpop in the US is sky-high? If not, why? What differentiates it from Europe?
I remember reading this article a couple of months ago about the failure of K-pop in the US and the need to implement a new strategy to take over the world.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2011/04/123_85219.html
The new strategy: “When asked about the key for making it in the U.S., Brule suggested that success in other regions such as Europe or Australia could pave the way. ”
That was two months ago and now flash mobs in France, maybe the music is a bit dodgy, but the marketing is great. Look out US music industry, K-pop is sneaking in through the back door which is apparently located in Paris.
@ iheartblueballs,
What are you grabbing so hard, boy? Seems like you have torsioned testicles. Go see a doctor.
@pawikirogii,
What does is say on Gerry’s hat?
IHBB (#39), stop forcing me to think hard on a Saturday morning! Can’t I just enjoy Kpop’s obvious Euro-triumph without having to defend it through citing evidence and employing logic?
Now, I know how my students feel about me . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
IHBB, before I pack and go to bed (and also disappear from blogging for the next 5 days or so on another trip), I by and large agree with that piece in your link ,
i.e. I never thought of Rain being on those TIME influential lists to mean anything or Boa (failing) in the US as something substantial enough… I would definitely say that the popularity of K pop in the US is *not* sky-high, and I am well aware of the Korea-centric reporting by the Korean media.
Now whether you or I (or mostly any of those over 15 years of age) like it or not I do think the phenomenon in Europe *is* different from that of the US for now, where initial forays into the US market by JYP (Wondergirls and Rain) and Boa have been an (epic) failure. They tried too hard to “conquer” by “adapting”. I do not share the same sentiment as someguy when I read the two articles which are, after all, reports which came from the phenomenon of their own fans.
The difference is that these bands (SM Entertainment) have taken the other route in their choice of staying in Asia, and conquering Japan etc. and nobody can deny the sky-high popularity of k-pop in Japan. I mean, I was there a month and a half ago. I was a skeptic, but everywhere I went, CD stores, Video rentals, my skepticism was replaced by amazement.
Back to the European fans, the thing is that surprisingly more number of non-English speaking countries are simply more open to non-English pop culture. There is indeed a huge manga/anime following in Europe, and initially a lot of them have come to K-pop via J-pop, and then K-dramas.
I am now writing a short piece on the rise of the social media, Web 2.0 and as the Bloomberg report points out (and maybe the article) these are two things which have really contributed towards the viral distribution of K-pop. This is something that you or I or anyone who is not into “poking” people with hearts or some weird shit like that on facebook might not comprehend. However, I do know more than 10 people (e.g. a Swedish particle physicist at CERN, a random sample of people, but mostly people who are into Facebook and youtube surfing) who had heard of the popularity of k-pop. Actually it’s the US which can come across as US-centric when it comes to pop culture, compared to the Europeans, that’s all. The internet-music environment is a very dynamic place where everything fast-evolving comes into play, and I think the K-pop industry is quite good with that, so I still think it’s fair game.
I do wish personally that it wasn’t all vacuous, that a lot of really great Korean Simon and Garfunkel like vocalists who have been loved by the Koreans in the past unfortunately missed the boat (20, 30, 40 years ago) such as 양희은, 김광석 and countless others who wrote music to mean something.
Lastly, I raise objection to the idea presented in the Bloomberg report that Kpop is *all* visual. It is very visual, but I do think that in its unapologetic generic beats, and the regurgitated melody, something uniquely Korean remains, and that does contribute to the success.. (and the abhorrence, depending on the taste)
Careful there, I still remember the horror I felt when I heard that Beyonce was headlining Glastonbury. My friends and I had already started boycotting Glastonbury for “selling out”, and that was before Desitiny’s Child had even been conceived by Beyonce’s salesman father.We instead chose to go to the Reading Festival all smug in our own shit. My opinion is if Beyonce can headline Glastonbury any other k-pop act can next (ok not Rain, because I actually do not like any of his songs, like Hyori, he doesn’t seem to have any hit songs)
IHBB,
Does not the opinion of 1.3 billion screaming Chinamen matter!?!?!
q, it says ‘fool’ in chinese.
English translation of the Le Monde article :http://hanguknamja.tumblr.com/post/6370445655/le-monde-korean-wave-sweeps-europe
Translation of (part of) a German article about Rain/Bi concert in Dresden:
http://hanguknamja.tumblr.com/post/5749167369/dogsgomeong-hanguknamja-the-german-press
And here’s one that might bring back Gangpeh/Yangachi. I remember he was a fan of 2ne1 and that was the first time I’d heard of this group. It’s hard not to want to 박수쳐, they’re like four cute Korean warrior daughters of Missy Elliott with an attitude just as bad.
yuna, I’m still trying to figure out how holding the very first kpop concert in Europe is evidence of its widespread popularity. The kpop toe has barely been dipped into the European pool, and you’ve already got it up on the Olympic podium racking up gold medals. Can you really do this with a straight face? Come on, toss a few reality tomatoes in your salad.
Kpop has had very impressive success throughout Asia, and there’s no disputing that fact. Outside of Asia though, it’s still a very small, niche product with limited album sales, a history of once or twice a year concerts marketed primarily to Koreans and Asians in the US and now Europe. It’s basically a novelty act with a small but dedicated base of fans (who really love filming themselves dancing and putting it on youtube). And there’s nothing wrong with that. Just don’t try to sell it as anything more than a small-scale niche with limited appeal, because that’s all it is right now.
There’s not a chance in hell that a single kpop act (or even a collection of acts) could pull off a standard European tour (20-30 dates filling mid-size arenas and venues) as hundreds and hundreds of popular European and American bands do all the time. That is popularity, and SKY-HIGH popularity would entail selling out stadiums and headlining festivals, just for your future reference, for comparison’s sake.
Beyonce is headlining is because she’s sold 75 million+ albums worldwide. Regardless of what you think of her music, she’s one of the best-selling artists of all time. An actual, real WORLD STAR (offense intended, Rain). One reason* you’ll never, ever see a kpop act on the main stage at Worthy Farm (or any other major music festival outside of Asia for that matter) is because they’re lucky to sell 1% of that. Not to mention that 99% of punters at Glasto would run for the exits if they saw the Nine girls in hot pants (thanks Bloomberg fella) screeching “gee gee gee gee baby baby!” Not even the finest LSD could make that watchable for your average festival crowd. You may not like these facts, but they remain facts nonetheless.
*Another reason is that their music sucks hog.
Is “thank you” 멸치 in French? One of the kpop singers keeps saying 멸치 at the end of their kpop performance in Paris. Didn’t he say “I am 멸치” ? Thought it was a funny scene.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMCI4UJX6d8
SM uploaded on youtube some videos of SM Town in Paris.
Replay _ SHINee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyqo_AVnIS4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Don’t Don _ Super Junior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llluerrge88&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
LA chA TA _ f(x): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-s_KT3Y2LA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Genie _ Girls’ Generation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOWrdo1kVYw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Before U Go _ TVXQ! : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEK-n3erlJs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Even though those two French articles weren’t exactly glowing reports on those Kpop boy/girl bands, at least Korea’s getting some positive press, other then dog eatings, poverty, economic thieving, cheap labor, Kim Jong Il, North Korea, and other usually and mostly negative reports on Korea from the European press. That’s gotta count for something. We’re making some progress here, so it’s not all terrible. By the way, where’s Brigitte Bardot?
Just curious to know, and I’d like to ask those who are on the know, how does the devious Korean government financially support the big Korean entertainment companies to spread the Korean propaganda? I first heard this from a Korean newspaper citing a Japanese minister. Now I’m reading this again with the French report, and at Marmot’s Hole.
Just another “hate the whiteboys/Korea rules the world circlejerk for the Kyop-apes in the comment section. Pretty hard to see the forest for the trees when your eyelids are stuck fast with nationalist jizz.
#48, which do you think is more popular in Asia right now, K-Pop or American-Pop?
As I said, the European music market sans UK is different from the US or the UK.
Whether due to language, or music itself, it’s quite rare (Scorpions might be an example) that they have their own act which is as popular as the ones from the US or the UK. You can start to source the awfulness when you watch something called the “Eurovision Song Contest”. It’s this gap in the market that I believe is satisfied by the K pop acts. There is a Danish/Norwegian band called Aqua which made it in the UK in the 90′s, it reminds me a little of some K-pop today. Also Aha.
You might be right. It might stay niche, it might not. For a niche I still say it’s ok (even for the reason of novelty) to be managed to be featured like so in their first ever concert. Most acts start niche then by the time it becomes mainstream is already when most start planning retirement/second business. As for your standard of 20,30 venues, in a tour, I am often so surprised to see posters of classic old geezers in some sleepy little town. I don’t think it’s just about filling venues anymore, Jon Bon Jovi style. Last time I saw him he was in Ali McBeal no?
The truth is that the teeny boppers you see dancing on youtube are the future. We are not. They have no hang-ups, they like what they like and do not care if it’s lowbrow or not.
I also don’t like SNSD. K-pop is quite a mixed bag though. In the end the music will speak/survive, even if it’s only for 3 months.
It may stay niche, or it may not even be that and it may flunk out, as predicted by some people. But at least 5 minutes of fame is not going to get wasted. A bit of positive image for a change isn’t the end of the world. Good on Kpop, eventhough I’m not a fan. So if that’s going to make me a whitey hating rabid K-nationalist, then so be it.
@ 멍든 봉알(iheartblueballs),
Kpop does not have to imitate/compare with the popularity of Beyonce. Beyonce is Beyonce and kpop is kpop. They have different colors. Let the kpop fans enjoy the music they love.
At any rate, don’t grab your thingy too hard. You may have to get a surgery before the 멍든 testicles totally lose their circulation. Advise you to get 계란 마사지.
@aaronm,
You sound so biased. Was 멍든 봉알retorted because he was a white? I do not know what skin color he has. Only color he showed to the whole world was his BLUE balls.
Yuna,
I can read German, Spanish, and Italian very well, but I wouldn’t be pretentious enough to argue with a native speaker of those languages about the editorial content of a newspaper in their native language.
I’m a native French speaker, so trust me if I say it’s fluff. Don’t be fooled by the fact the article is appearing on the front page. Lets just say that Le Figaro is not on the same level as that of Le Monde.
#23,
Ironically, you’re nothing but a demagogue who’s too damned lazy to get his own soapbox.
#56, was the Korean translation of one of those articles correct when it translated one of the sentences as quoting the guys on stage look like bi-sexuals?
@ SomeguyinKorea (#56),
Whatever. Maybe your age cannot bear kpop. That’s okey. Most European kpop fans seem teenagers.
What pop singers do you like? 70′s, 80′s, 90′s, 00′s or 60′s?
Gerry,
동방신기 levitated at the SM Town in Paris concert.
http://youtu.be/8mdbl57ebrQ
why can’t we be happy for korea? why every time korea gets some positive press, you gotta have the scumbag posse come out in full force? so what if korean newspapers hype kpop? you think korean people don’t know it’s hype? maybe you think these things will lead to koreans being even more arrogant than you say they already are, but if you think that, you don’t know koreans. fact is, most koreans are a bit bewildered by all of this interest in korea’s pop culture. when i saw that mob, i didn’t beam with pride, i was bewildered and delighted at the same time. that’s the way most korean people feel. in fact, i wish you could see my face when i meet filipinos or other asians who say they went for a vacation to korea and loved it. i always feel shocked to hear this things. just like the shock at seeing that flash mob. i’m happy for korea. can’t you be happy for korea too?
Pawi, I’m happy for Korea, despite all the setbacks to my ‘career’, I like living in Seoul, despite the pushing and shoving on the subway trains, and I’ll probably live here the rest of my life, despite having to die here if I do that . . .
So, hooray for K-pop, for Koreans, and for Korea!
Yeah, I’ve had a few beers, but I still mean what I say . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Im happy for Korea. One thing that always strikes when I visit the ASEAN countries is the growing prevelence of Korean pop culture. I once flew on the same TG flight to BKK with SNSD (waaaaaaay nicer looking in
real life) and despite arriving at 1am, a large
and rowdy contingent of Thai fans were there to greet them (I mistakenly believed they were there to welcome me…alas). I was also surprised to see snippets of 한글 in advertisements for Korean products marketed to local consumers.
If it’s Glastonbury, it’ll be none girls in hot pants and galoshes.
If it’s Glastonbury, it’ll be nine girls in hot pants and galoshes. Mmm getting more interesting
Yuna,
ABBA !
I can’t stand K-pop (or any other manufactured pop for that matter), but I thought this Aloe Blacc remix by some Korean fella was pretty cool.
I am, but that doesn’t change the fact you’re a bigger douche than Anthony Weiner.
Why don’t you quit vomiting up your tripe here until you learn the difference between “bald” and “bold”, mkay?
Kpop isn’t headlining Glastonbury so it must not be very popular. Great logic there… Why are we even comparing kpop to mainstream English speaking acts like Beyonce and U2? Why not compare it to Jpop? Or music from China? India? Or to be fair, compare it to music from countries of similar size. Considering that the global music industry is English dominated, I would say that kpop is doing well for itself, especially in the non English speaking world.
I am learning at MH. Sounds goot? ^__^
Who cares if Kpop is gaining traction in the global music industry or not? I mean, some people like Johnny Cash. Others enjoy Britney Spears. Some people like Tex Mex. Others enjoy Taco Bell. Personally, I love authentic Mexican food. Carne asada. That is some good shit.
Pawi,
why do you need/want others to be happy for Korea? If Korea is kicking ass and taking names, who cares what others think? Stop being so goddamn insecure and be a badass about it.
I am glad to learn new words at MH. You guys are awesome! Thanks, dudes.
“That is some good shit.”
“kicking ass”
“be a badass about it”
I do. This is the biggest global pollution crisis since the BP spill in Gulf of Mexico.
I know. Economy is so bad and unemployment is high. Who can dare to care kpop?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EZN5gsfMzk
Alright, I have a get together that I have to be off to in an hour or two so I’ll be unable to translate the article below. Another MH commentator who reads Korean will have to do the honors.
In their weekend book review, Pressian.com has a review up for the recently published book 아이돌 : H.O.T에서 소녀시대까지 아이돌 문화 보고서. The review is written by 김종엽, a professor at Hanshin University (한신대학교). Professor Kim asks a few framing questions that I think will be of interest to those who’ve participated in this particular debate or are interested in Korean entertainment culture in general.
First up, Professor Kim talks about the difference between a “Star” and an “Idol.” According to the professor, with a “Star” there is a distinct distance between the masses. Whereas with an “Idol,” that distance has been considerably shortened if not eliminated:
The bolded part above is nice concise summary of why Koreans can get so bitchy over what this or that celebrity does.
And the part that’ll probably be most interesting to readers of this particular thread is the difference between solo acts and group acts. In short, group acts in Professor Kim’s view make economic and financial sense and have played a significant role in helping export acts overseas:
http://www.pressian.com/books/article.asp?article_num=50110610133721&Section=04
Again, so sorry I’m unable to provide a translation. For those of you who are able to make it through reading something in Korean, I hope you find this article an interesting read. I know did.
Tiny, Glastonbury is in England which is a country of similar size both physically and population!!!
#58,
Whether I can stomach K-pop or not is immaterial. The article is fluff because of its content.
@ dogbertt (#68),
Are you saying I stop “gag reflex” on the disgusting blue balls of IHBB? Public display of adult testicles is just nauseating and 징그럽다. I guess he is a kind of exhibitionistic guy who exposed his 물건 at a Korean baseball game.
Whatever. Who cares when people suffers from poverty and unemployment? Better to get back to real life. Cool.
Anyway, only for those who still cares
:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpob75CJcE
K-pop is one of the korean national strategy of good images..
it happened same in Japan.
korean paid money to Dentsu, Japanese TV and newspaper for that
this is funny…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI7rA9bvVWo
Congratulations to Korea on the good publicity.
I’m just absolutely perplexed though, why anyone would enjoy Kpop. I’ve seen the stuff for 20 plus years and have never been impressed – the only thing that comes to mind is ‘poser.’ No creativity, no musical talent. I’ve never understood how Korean young people could like it, and I’m even more dumbfounded that Westerners would like it.
I like authentic Korean things – but the only thing Korean about Kpop is the lyrics -about half of them at that.
The whole process by which they make this music destroys the creative process. There aren’t small groups of individual musicians making their own music, experimenting and competing in small clubs to gain a following. No, in Korea it’s a corporation -that selects the song, trains the dancers, gives them the music to sing. These guys are penalized for creativity. They’re rewarded for copying others.
These acts are popular in France because they are exotic. If they’re smart they won’t sing in French because that would dilute their appeal. Long lasting success would seem to require some creativity and authenticity – qualities that the ‘corporation’ has trouble with.
I’m happy that Korea is gaining good publicity – but sad that it has nothing to do with anything Korean.
@ hoihoi,
Whatever. Who cares when Japanese so much suffer from Fukushima nuclear crisis? Better to get back to real life problem of daily radiation. Cool.
Anyway, only for those who still care
:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI1–T4z9eI
@ dokdoforever,
At least, some pieces of 동방신기(TVXQ)’s music used Korean traditional instruments such as 징(Jing) and 추임새(Chuimse) such as “얼쑤!”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8BNd2IYuC0&feature=related
I appreciate your comment. Thank you so very much.
“For the French Speakers here is a French report on K-pop.”…
Which is about how K-pop is gaining popularity in Asia. Nothing about France. It’s like a Korean TV station doing a story about popular music in Africa.
Q: I clicked on the link, and they’re good dancers. I can’t imagine anyone would listen to the music though on its own.
Indian pop music actually sounds Indian. Korean pop though doesn’t have much connection with traditional Korean music – at least not to my ears.
@ SomeguyinKorea (#85),
Korean singers did not beg the Europeans to invite them. Kpop fans in Europe have asked kpop singers to perform (more) in their continent. Yes, they are not a majority. But who cares? The 14,000 European kpop fans at the concerts seemed to have good time at the concerts.
If you want to see Beyonce or Mariah Carey , then go to Beyonce and Mariah Carey concerts. Nobody put earphones into your ears and force you to listen to kpop.^^
Pop music in many parts of the world actually incorporates much from the native musical tradition. It would be nice if Korean pop could incorporate some of the traditional Korean music the way pop does in these regions:
Indian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvGklVDMY5Q
African: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UCJ4bXYN54
Latin American: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71W0b0_y8AA
Egyptian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLqx0WaGk2E
@ dokdoforever
If you do not like it, that’s your preference. That’s perfectly fine.
True. I’m not a professional in music, but I think Western music is not so pure either. Many genres were influenced by African music such as Blues, Jazz and Hip pop. What is truely authentic American music? Aren’t they mostly from Europe or Africa?
I guess it is worldwide trend that traditional music of their pertinent cultures are not sung that much. How many Western youth love to listen to and sing classical music? Isn’t modern pop more popular than classical music? Yeah, I’m kinda sad about that, either Korean or Western.
That’s the point, though – pop music is a creative blend of music, influenced by many traditions – blues obviously – and like America it is the product of a multi-cultural mixture. What is Korea’s creative contribution to popular music?
“I’m just absolutely perplexed though, why anyone would enjoy Kpop. I’ve seen the stuff for 20 plus years and have never been impressed ”
You are not obviously a 17 year old adolescent screaming girl still in high school. They tend to like looking at good looking guys and gals singing on stage. I suppose this just doesn’t make any kind of sense, if you’re looking through the prisms of a 40 year old perplexed guy who grew up listening to heavy metal bands.
True, I’m past my screaming adolescent girl stage. But, take a Michael Jackson with Billy Jean or Thriller – the guy could dance, too, but his music was creative and new when it came out. I wish I was musically trained so that I could better describe it – Kpop music seems kind of simple and repetitive.
I guess you are trying to say America is a so very creative country because she has recreated music out of mixtures of lots of different cultures. If you want to put it that way, I guess you are right. I have no problem with your national pride.
I’m saying that Korean pop music could add to and improve pop music by incorporating some Korean musical traditions, and by supporting creative Korean artists who write and perform their own music, rather than corporate products who mimic foreign trends.
Let me scream it for you. USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! ^__^
I’d rather that you scream: Creativity!! Authenticity!! Originality!! Ingenuity!!
American music is so very much creative, authentic, original and ingenious. USA is a great nation of — this part, I will scream — Creativity!! Authenticity!! Originality!! Ingenuity!!
Wish your national pride satisfied.
A little creativity from Korean artists would also satisfy my Indian, African, Egyptian and Latin American pride too.
And I think someone who was really proud of Korea would support pop music that contained a creative mix of Korean musical heritage and traditions and want to share that with the rest of the world.
@Q
Come on. As much as this is going to help South Korea’s economy/soft power/etc., the particular brand of Korean music that’s being exported are complete crap. Comparable to other shit-artists like Lil’ Wayne, Soulja Boy, and Justin Bieber, sure. But K-Idols aren’t helping at all.
@Dokdo
You should definitely distinguish between Korean “Idols” and Korean artists, even though most news articles don’t make that separation. For creativity, how about this guy’s new 2nd album?
Enjoy.
#100, pop is not just about music. Style, appearance, visual, and image, are more important than just music alone. If that’s what people want, that’s what they’re going to get. They can have 5 bands who are the greatest and the most talented, the most creative music bands Korea has ever seen, but they ain’t going to sell out 7000 seats in Paris, if they don’t have the style and the looks.
“POP” music, in its nature, is like a coke or McDonald junk food that is a product of mass consumption. Of course, it is not good to keep eating at McDonald everyday.
I think it’d be better go to Gukak or classical music concerts more often than POP music concerts. We are living in a free society. So we can always make decisions for ourselves.
@53
[blockquote]As I said, the European music market sans UK is different from the US or the UK.
Whether due to language, or music itself, it’s quite rare (Scorpions might be an example) that they have their own act which is as popular as the ones from the US or the UK. You can start to source the awfulness when you watch something called the “Eurovision Song Contest”. It’s this gap in the market that I believe is satisfied by the K pop acts. There is a Danish/Norwegian band called Aqua which made it in the UK in the 90′s, it reminds me a little of some K-pop today. Also Aha.[/blockquote]
You’re saying that if mainland Europe can like something as awful and cheesy as the Eurovision song contest, they just might go for K-pop too. Good point, but aren’t you embarrassed? Your country produces bands fit to compare with the Eurovision song contest and they’re your cultural ambassadors … the mere thought makes me cringe.
@ bumfromkorea,
Is it wrong? I think it is a very smart strategy, considering Korea does not have many natural resources. Consumers, especially people living in different cultures, are not idiots. They consume they believe worth their money.
i’m glad to see someone happy for korea, jeffery.
****
gerry, please visit my site to see your new food product line called ‘chef gerry’s’. your kid will get a kick at seeing his dad a la chef boyar-dumbshit.
@Q
I don’t think it’s ‘wrong’, but you can’t fault anyone for calling the K-Idol music for what it is – fermented dog diarrhea. Idols are indeed amazingly well thought out business plans, but their artistic values are non-existent.
Just because McDonald’s is popular globally doesn’t mean they provide good nutrition.
Pawi,
I visited your blog and saw “석아 감독” in a post titled “을미사변”. I just remembered my interpreting your screen name, “pawikirogii”, as “바위 기러기” by guessing the word “석아” months ago although you never explicitly confirmed that my conjecture was correct. You don’t need to confirm, though.
So, I’m saying, “Are you gonna debut as a film director, then?”
bel, i’m sorry i never answered but your are right; seok a is 石鵝 which is pawi-kirogi. movie director? if i ever get the funds. right now, i just design the posters. i hope you visit my site from time to time. have a good day, bel.
btw bel, do you what ‘을미사변’ is?
I agree with Yeon-ah Shin the most regarding K-pop and Europe:
I thought this was kinda funny:
From: http://kpopnew.com/2011/05/can-k-pop-succeed-in-europe/
@ bumfromkorea (#107),
I guess that’s how the USA became the most morbidly obese country in the world. I imagine you are one of the few American connoisseurs of highly elegant cultural taste. Of course, you must not have fatty belly.
Don’t you love your motherland whether or not the most fattest country in the world? I am still happy to shout “USA” for ya. USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!
pawi # 110,
You wrote,
“do you what ‘을미사변’ is?”
Well, since English is not my native language, I’m not sure what you meant by that… Anyway, I’m changing your question into “do you know what ‘을미사변’ is?” and then it makes sense to me.
I know ‘cos I’m a south Korean abroad: Korean is my mother tongue and I got almost all of my education in south Korea.
Thinking you can read Korean, I’m answering your question in Korean:
바위 기러기님,
을미사변은 조선 왕조의 명성 황후가 1895년 경복궁에서 당시 일본 공사 미우라 고로와 일본 낭인들에 의해 시해된 사건입니다. 일본이 당시 조선을 침략하려는 준비 작업 중 하나로서, 고종 황제의 정비인 명성 황후를 시해한 악랄한 범죄적 사건이죠. ‘명성황후 시해사건’ 이라고도 불립니다.
저 역시 학교에서 역사책에서 배웠습니다. 혹시 궁금한 분들은 ‘을미사변’ 이라고 검색하면 위키 백과 등 다양한 웹사이트에서 상세히 설명하고 있으니 참조하시기 바랍니다.
If you have any difficulty understanding the above Korean, please let me know. I’ll provide English version
벨씨, 맞습니다! i’m glad you learned about in school and yes, i know there quite a few websites about it. my korean is really bad but i understood what you wrote above. i hope you have a good day, bel.
btw, one last thing, were you alive in korea in the early 70s? i understand if the question is too personal.
‘about it in school.’
Pawi wrote (#114):
That explains a lot. A poor lost child, stranded between two cultures, neither here nor there.
pawi #115,
Hahaha, yes, that’s kind of personal. I’ll pass that question
However, let me know if you have any questions re early 1970s: I can search on the internet, ask my friends / family members in south Korea or tweet to my south Korean tweeps on Twitter.
Pawi (#106), my 14-year-old daughter is a K-Pop fan — and especially loves Girls’ Generation. I kid her about that, but I sort of like the group, too. It’s just pop music, so I don’t take it very seriously, but I’m happy that K-Pop is doing well.
Just yesterday, she informed me of K-Pop in Europe and was surprised when I already knew of Le Monde and Le Figaro. Thanks to MH . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
@#88: “Nobody put earphones into your ears and force you to listen to kpop.^^”
If you walk down the street or eat in restaurants in Korea, then you are forced to listen to K-pop. Or even worse, K-ballads. If I walk into an eatery and I hear some poofy-haired guy crooning in falsetto 보고 싶어요! 사랑해요! with a bar-chime fill every 8 measures, I’m outta there. Sort of limits my eating choices, but I generally prefer not to vomit what I’ve just eaten.
@ WangKon936 (#111),
It is an interesting point. Kpop soloist singers seem popular too, such as IU. Regarding number of members, I think AKB48 has the biggerst number among pop singing groups. As you might know, AKB48 is the most popular Jpop group in Japan.
http://youtu.be/BynKzyF4s8U
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AKB48
@ feld_dog (#119),
That’s very true, haha. Korean streets are full of lively noise and music. But once you are away from busy streets and cities, you are free from that, hehe.
In Kpop one sees the rise and prominence of the “idol” and of the dimension of “performance” in music, or, of that complete pop culture in which the idol, the song, the stage, and the dance are a single and coherent entity.
I’m serious. We haven’t seen this sort of pop culture rife anywhere since the 80s America.
Add to the above the fact that in Korean pop music, one sees a usurpation of Western music — as a variation, music that, sure, may have been done before, but not by Asians, and not with that performance-culture zeal and idolatry and fanaticism to match. These things, ultimately, are what draw people to Kpop. That’s the charm.
There’s a lot of variety in Kpop, lots of good high quality stuff there (mixed in with the bad, of course) and, by now, it’s too easy to be ignorant about it and dismissive.
#118,
One show in Paris and it’s the most popular music in Europe…The local media sure has a way of aggrandizing the “Korean Ripple” in order to keep kids buying the products they (the local media and the K-pop bands) advertize.
PS. To put things in perspective:
14000 at the K-pop show…
500 000 people showed up for a Pink Floyd concert in Paris in 1970 and 2 million people attended a Jean-Michel Jarre concert there in 1990.
Oh, and U2 is playing Paris next month. The venue is the Stade de France.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stade_de_France
So, yeah. K-pop is not nearly as popular in France as the local media would have those of us who are highly impressionable kids believe.
Hey, I don’t think anyone is claiming Kpop is popular in the full-blown sense, or as popular as U2 or whatever. That seems to miss the point.
’14000 at the K-pop show…500 000 people showed up for a Pink Floyd concert in Paris in 1970 and 2 million people attended a Jean-Michel Jarre concert there in 1990.’
how people showed up for mr jarre’s concert in seoul? was it more than 14k? you feel threatened, don’t ya, white guy? how you feel about those pretty french girls swooning for k guys?
lol.
jerk
how many
@ SomeguyinKorea,
I did not see any Korean media suggest kpop is more popular or better than western pop.
I guess you would be rather offended by some expressions of Le Monde‘s report, such as “Korean Wave Sweeps Europe” and “After conquering Asia, Kpop is now attacking the European market.” I do not like the exggeratory tone of Le Mondereport.
You may find better place to complain at Le Monde: http://www.lemonde.fr/
SM Town made a profit of about US$25 million against a revenue of US$ 86 million in 2010. 2009 profits are around US$21 million. Revenues from ticket sales for the Paris concert are estimated to be around US$ 2 million with the tickets ranging from 51 to 111.5 Euros.
From the looks of it seems that SM Town has quite a war chest, not surprising considering the popularity of the singers it has under its charge.
Against this background I can’t help but wonder whether the entertainment company in question used some of its financial muscle in order to draw the 7,000 member crowd for the concert on June 10th in addition to staging the publicity surrounding the event. I mean if each concert goer was given let’s say a 200 Euro rebate for coming to the concert and hyping this up, one gets the effect one wants and the cost is still IMO within the manageable range. Also considering that the French minimum wage is 9 Euros per hour, well….
SM Town is probably more interested in gaining a foothold in Europe rather than making money right away. And compared to Japan, China, and SE Asia, I doubt the Frenchies are that receptive about K-Pop.
I don’t think there’s any illusion that Kpop is somehow ruling over the European music scene. I think it’s more of surprise (that White people will go far Asians) mixed in with satisfaction and pride that Korea has “arrived” (sort of speak) to now able to export its pop culture anywhere in the world, including Europe – the amazement and validation that Korean entertainers can succeed in countries that deemed to have a huge wall of racial barrier in front of them. It’s too early to tell if this wall has been breached since it’s only couple of concerts, but it looks promising with the younger European crowd grown up around Youtubes. It could be a passing fad, or it could be another whole genre in the European music scene. Who knows?
#125, 128
You’re naive if you think that the Korean media doesn’t have a vested interest in creating the impression that K-pop performers are anywhere near as popular abroad as their are locally. By doing so, it makes young Koreans more pliable consumers, ones who will purchase the vast amount of products that K-pop performers advertise, anything from cell phones to fried chicken. The Korean media outlets are simply looking out for the interests of their advertisers, ipso facto their own.
#126,
There you go, race baiting and ad hominem attacks again.
French girls swooning for Korean guys? Have you seen pictures of the audience? Lots and lots of guys, not just girls. In fact, the person responsible for the Facebook campaign to have the K-pop group perform in France is a guy.
As for Jean Michel Jarre and Seoul…How does that change the fact that 14000 is not a big audience on the scale of performances in a major Europe city?
“satisfaction and pride that Korea has “arrived” ”
As I was saying, Korean authors have received literary prizes in Europe for decades.
And, really, if you stop pretending K-pop is anything but a product, then Korea “arrived” many years ago, when Samsung started selling it’s TVs and VCRs under its own name and Hyundai exported its first car.
Alpha-Beta at 122, you stated:
“We haven’t seen this sort of pop culture rife anywhere since the 80s America.” Alluding to the “idol” and “management company” aspect of K-Pop.
I must respectfully disagree. K-pop, like the Chaebol economic system, is based on a successful model that has been ubber-successful in Asia from at least the mid-70′s to today. Main difference is that the J-pop model was making lots of money domestically (and continues to do so, as Japan may well be the only country in the world that respects intellectual property rights more than the US) and as a result, there was no real financial need to push overseas. Interesting thing about the J-pop idol model is that, much like the dynamism that is being infused into the K-pop market by ethnic Koreans from other countries, such as Korean Americans, Jonnys, the prototypical Japanese idol factory, was started by a Japanese American.
Keep in mind that despite the lack of market incentive to invest in bringing J-pop outside of Japan (J-pop grew organically in Asia, as K-pop did as well in its earlier stages. It was the surprise at said organic growth that led to government involvement, as the growth of the popular culture was wisely viewed by government planners, and industry insiders as both a means of expanding national soft power, and of making $$$) Japanese entertainers and companies tried, and tried hard in some circumstances, to penetrate foreign (read: US and European) markets. Financing for such endeavors, however, were, unlike certain aspects of the K-pop boom, almost never government funded (even the Le Figaro article speaks to said funding). Interesting, the acts which were pushed the hardest (Seiko Matsuda, Utada Hikaru, Dreams Come True, Pink Lady – we are talking 1980 here – they had their own TV show on NBC called “Pink Lady and Jeff” – really, really, really wacky show – and, IMHO, REALLY embarrassing bad. Every episode would end with Pink Lady in bikinis in a hot tub, and some Sumo wrestler dude running into the frame) would reap the least results, Its was usually the bands that were not as well known in Japan that built a name for themselves in the Western market. Bands like Shonen Knife (they opened for Nirvana, and Kurt Cobain was a fan. Also had one of their songs featured in a Microsoft commercial), Cornelius (Very well respected outside of Japan. His bathing Ape brand is well known in Europe and the US), Pizzicato Five (They hit #1 on the College Music charts when I was an undergrad). The “Idol” bands seemed to be popular mostly amongst “overseas” Asian communities, and as an extension, the entire state of Hawaii. But, as Pawii like to correctly raise over and over again… so what! Popular is popular and race should p;lay no role here.
Anyways, I guess what I am trying to pint out here is something we should have all taken away from BSG. This has all happened before, and this will all happen again.
Never mind asking why none of these bands are playing the big festivals in Europe. Look closer to home where they supposedly enjoy genuine popularity, i.e., Japan. I have been to the Fuji Rock Festival several times and to my knowledge no cookie-cutter manufactured Korean group has ever played and this year’s lineup is no different. Why? Because these “acts” are nothing more than commercials for Korea who have no more talent than the Aflac duck and about the same artistic integrity/production value as Crazy Frog. Nonetheless, Korea will win Eurovision 2012. You read it here first.
pazz and jop…if you ain’t on it, you ain’t on it.
http://www.villagevoice.com/pazznjop
@ SomeguyinKorea,
My reply was about your over-reactive comments. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the western pop singers you mentioned are really popular and successful. Did anybody threaten you by saying that kpop is more popular or better than the world-famous singers you referred? Don’t do yeolpok. Calm down, bro.
@ Japonymous,
I do not think a government support necessarily lead to a success of a culture industry. Kpop got viral mostly through youtube, not through conventional market. Do you seriously believe a government can control youtube users unless the all the youtube users are living in PRC?
European kpop fans were already there well before Korean government supported the first kpop concerts in Paris. They already have had voluntary kpop fan meetings by themselves all over Europe, even though they were not a majority in the European culture.
And I do not find anything wrong with Korean government supporting Korean Wave stars to enhance awareness of Korea and Korean products.
Q- Read what I wrote again. Did I say there was anything wrong with a government spending money to increase its soft power? Did I imply that Kpop’s success outside of Korea was exclusively a result of said expenditures?
Oh, and Q, I don’t put much value on K-pop youtube “hits” or iTune reviews. I discussed that in an earlier post in another thread. Both can be manipulated, as seen in Rain v. Colbert. Both have been manipulated.
I am, however, NOT arguing that said internet revolution has not assisted in getting the word out. I’m just saying I don’t buy the argument that the Youtube hits indicate anything in particular other than:
- fans are true fans… meaning fanatics…
- Said fanaticism has imbued said fans with a feeling that they should and can do anything they can to raise the popularity of their chosen vessel of idolization.
- Somebody knows how to use “hit” producing software bots….
But, alas that was a different day and a different thread…
‘Oh, and Q, I don’t put much value on K-pop youtube “hits” or iTune reviews. I discussed that in an earlier post in another thread. Both can be manipulated, as seen in Rain v. Colbert. Both have been manipulated.’
do you have any proof of this? could you provide western website that looks into this?
btw, why you so threatened by the rise of korea? you can say it ain’t so but you got ‘bothered’ written on your every word. why you so down on korea over there in japan?
let me let you in on the point because you don’t seem to see it. that the concert happened at all is the point from a korean perspective. that there would be even 14000 kpop fans* in europe is what the focus is. you get that, don’t you?
* according to whitekorean aka theotherkorean, a signifcant number of the 14000 concert goers were paid 200 euro to attend. he offered no proof.
Why pawi pawi, I didn’t know that tickled you.
Pawi – I think you are familiar with the Rain v. Colbert situation. I do not think you are attempting to seriously argue that either one of the two was actually the most influential people in the world. Are you? Any type of internet poll, or hit measurement quantifiers are easily manipulated, and are often manipulated, either by fans or by marketing companies. I made no claim on being paid to attend a concert. that is a weighty claim, and I would ask for verification. claiming that internet polls and hits can be easily manipulated… even by software “hit bots” – I think you can run your own search son that one Pawii.
And Pawii, I have no idea what you are talking about by your “threatened by Korea on the rise” comment. Re-read what I wrote. I even snuck in a BSG reference, and paraphrased something you once said positively… you seem to have issues related to this point. I don’t. If you think a concert in Paris is an indication of “Korea on the Rise” – well then that’s ok. I would, however, argue that Korea has already risen, and your constant harping on these minor fleeting pop-culture matters, as if they are the true hallmarks of said rise, takes away from said absolute rise, as it appears that you do not truly believe that the rise has occurred.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, I think growth in Korea’s soft power will be good for Korea, good for the region and good for the world.
I’ve also said earlier that I think that some of the stories about said K-pop dominance are blown out of proportion and hyperbolic in nature. For example, I remember when the Korean press was going on about Rain selling out MSG, when he only sold out the mini-theater in the back. I also remember when that same press was going on and on about how Korean cosmetics were taking over NYC, especially from Misha’s flaghip store on “Manhattans’ prestigious 5th avenue” (which was on 5th and 43rd… not the prestigious part..but again, not a lie, just hyperbolic). Same Misha store closed in about a year. Also the whole Wonder Girls making it to Billboard situation, which involved selling $1 CD singles at shopping centers and mobilizing the whole Korean American community to come out and by said $1 CD. It worked.. for a week. And, let me just say that I applaud JYP for said marketing. It worked. It worked in trying to project an image of US success that was in fact not there. It actually reminded me of the early marketing for “My Big Fat Greek Wedding.” I must have seen that movie like 4 times in the theater (once even in Tokyo). The first few weeks it was a simple case of lots of Greek-american organizing trips to theaters. But you know, something funny happened after that, and little by little, most of the peoplein the theater were no longer predominately Greek-American. Before you knew it, the movie became the highest grossing romantic comedy of all time. So, I get the marketing, I really do.
I think Pawii, what you are not getting is that most of the posters who disagree with you on this board have a soft spot in their hearts for Korea. I would say that most have solid experiences with the country and the culture and have been affected positively. I think most complaints are steeped in the charges of hyperbole and excessive boasting. Read through the posts above. Those who disagree with you are centering in on the idea that the situation is being made to look grander than it really is. Nobody likes a boaster. There is something to be said for quiet humility, but alas that is something that I believe both America and Korea have in common.
Another thing I noticed while I was in NY that I’m starting to see in Japan now, is the way that a certain cultural pressure for fast growth at times can collapse n on itself. Beyond the cosmetic store example above, this could be seen most clearly in the Froyo boom. Around 2008 there was apparently a Korean owned Froyo shop on like every block in Manhattan. after a while, the stores started to cannibalize the business of their neighbors, and before you knew it most of these shops had shuttered up.
With the success of Kara and Girl’s Generation in Japan, I am noticing a similar trend in Kpop acts coming to Japan. The flood gates have been open, and I fear that the explosion of new acts may actually hurt the future growth of Kpop in Japan. I fear this because I’ve seen it before, and I have said time and time again, I view said growth to be a very positive thing.
@Japonymous,
Yeah, I did not buy the face value popularity either when JYP advertised his success in the US. But if you believe youtube counts were fabricated, then just count how many kpop covers are on youtube, compared with jpop.
Wish you are okay. Jap government belatedly doubled its radiation level.
Q. Let’s make a deal. You stop it with using racist slurs, and I’ll never start. Really unclassy man! Makes your constant cutting and pasting (again… context… March 11 to 16 was months ago, and Tokyo is 220 km away, and most of the harm caused by Chernobyl was due to food supply issues, which we have worked from… but I will say this, the lack of transparency by the Japanese gov’t on this is almost as sickening as the radiation itself) go from the possibly informatively annoying, to the outright bitter and racist.
There is no excuse for using racial slurs on this board, or anywhere else for that matter… and please don’t even try to argue that you were trying to use shorthand…
Oh, and to answer your Youtube “cover” argument:
- Jpop is not attempting to be an international phenomena. As I said before, 30 years ago it grew organically throughout Asia, as Kpop started to do about 10 years ago, based on a tried and true Japanese “idol development model” with a (Korean and hip hop) twist. You are too young to know this, but as recently as 15 years ago, despite the ban on Jpop in Korea, Jpop was HUGE in Korea in underground cafes, and surprisingly out in the open markets. It was also HUGE all over Asia. Difference is, 15 years ago, when I first lived in Japan, I did not hear constant reminders of this “J-wave phenomena.” There was no need to reinforce that which was known. Japan is still in the idol making biz, but as I noted earlier, Jpop has a self-sustaining market, and, as such, there is no real need to internatioanlize it, nor is there an active attempt to do so. Chicken and refrigerator sales seem to be the main way that Korean acts make their cash domestically. Somehow, I don’t see SMAP, or EXILE, or AKB48 catching a flight to Seoul in order to make a move to Korea economically viable.
2-This market need for internationalization is exactly what leads to these Youtube covers. I have heard and have read about contests by either the Korean Government or Korean media companies actively promoting uploading of said content. I believe there is a government program going on now where the top prize is a Kpop tour of Korea. Heck, if I were a teenager again, I’d be all over that one! Free trip to Korea… sweet! Also, unlike Jpop, Kpop makes an active effort to conform to the market they enter. Why do you think the Wondergirls will release a song in Korean, English and Chinese at the same time. Why do you think every Kpop band that enters the Japanese market sings in Japanese. They ain’t burning platinum and gold CDs by singing in Korean (unlike Colbert).
@ Japonymous,
^^
@ Japonymous,
Some of the youtube videos are to win flight ticket to Korea. But most of them have been uploaded for pure fun and hobby.
“Japa” is NOT Jap, and more importantly, is NOT English. Its Portuguese.
the Australian Newservice?? You mean this?
http://www.asiapulse.com/
Where did they use it?
A Japanese designers use in 1970 seems like sarcasm to me, much in the same way that Blacks can use a certain word that others really shouldn’t.
You should know better, and your cutting and pasting above shows me that you do not. Fail. It is rude, racist, and when taken in context of your constant anti-Japanese postings simply hateful.
#136,
Over-reactive response? That’s rich coming from someone who’s clearly trolling.
No, little buddy, it’s the Korean media which are overreacting. I’ve already explained why.
@148. Can you tell which is which? AND, don’t you think that those posting it realize that they will get thousands of hits as people like you will hold them up as an example of just how successful Jpop is, and it will go viral as a result. teenagers love attention… bad Beyonce covers won’t get you that many hits, but a bad Super Junior cover will get you a mention in the Korea Herald… or at least it used to…
Anyways, I’m done. If you don’t realize that “Jap” is a derogatory term (or even worst, if you realize it, but you are pretending that it isn’t) then I care not continue responding to your posts. Its just rude, racist and unclassy…
@ Japonymous,
Whatever. Thanks for your vehement comments.
Now, it’s time to go back to your real life and mind radiation levels in Tokyo.
@ SomeguyinKorea,
Whatever. I enjoyed watching the kpop performance and fan reactions. That’s enough for me.
Korean pop music and its associated fashion is absolute crap.
#153,
Sorry for saying that it was only 14000 fans at the show…It’s was actually less than half that. Le Zenith de Paris seats 6000.
@155
The concert was held for (June 10th and 11th).
Let’s check our basic facts before posting.
**held for 2 days (June 10th and 11th).
@81 hoihoi
“korean paid money to Dentsu, Japanese TV and newspaper for that”
Yeah, we all know that’s the popularly repeated line on the Japanese internet. So where is the proof? According to these Japanese, Koreans are almost supernaturally good at bribing and buying everyone. Maybe, just maybe, there is something interesting about Korean pop culture some of your fellow Japanese folks have found enjoyable? Does the SM Town concert in France bother your own worldview? You might as well just mind your own “Cool Japan” business, haha.
‘I think Pawii, what you are not getting is that most of the posters who disagree with you on this board have a soft spot in their hearts for Korea. I would say that most have solid experiences with the country and the culture and have been affected positively.’
bullshit. you got hate written all over your words, boy. btw, you too young to remember but jpop did not grow organically nor did the rise of japanese food in the states rise organically. the japanese government had a large hand in both. you better do more research.
****
2 nights of concerts equals 14,000 people. pisses you off seeing those french girls swooning over korean guys, don’t it?
What have we learned from the haters today?
-Kpop isn’t popular since it’s not headlining Glastonbury
-Kpop isn’t popular because it’s not selling out the Stade de France
-Everyone who attended the concert were payed off by the Korean government
-Everyone who watches kpop youtube videos are also payed agents of the Korean government
-There weren’t any whites in the crowd, only Asian kpop followers
Never thought a stupid little concert would get so many people so riled up and angry. Some people out there must really hate Korea.
Sounds like sour grapes to me. Jpop having a “self-sustaining market” probably has a lot to do with the fact that jpop is marketed to lonely 40-something salarymen as well as to teenyboppers.
‘Some people out there must really hate Korea.’
yep. it’s funny that this japonymouse thinks we can’t see that. he’s a japanophile coming to a korea blog to set the record straight! all this with k pop has been done before! it ain’t no big deal.
‘Japan is still in the idol making biz, but as I noted earlier, Jpop has a self-sustaining market, and, as such, there is no real need to internatioanlize it, nor is there an active attempt to do so’
this is a jermaine jackson comment regarding his brother, michael:
‘all that fame could have been mine (if i really wanted it).’
‘The group was threatened with disbandment due to contract disputes with their agency, DSP Entertainment, earlier this year as three members sued for contract termination from the label while two decided to remain with DSP. The dispute was resolved in April, with all five members continuing to remain under DSP’s management. “When Kara was going through the break-up controversy, every single newspaper and television program in Japan ran the story all day,” said correspondent Nakazume Yasue, who covered the event for Sankei Sports newspaper. “They are absolutely huge in Japan.”
japony, is mr nakazume being paid to say these things?
SomeguyinKorea wrote:
This is the dumbest comment ever in this thread. ^____^
So, thekorean turned out to be so insightful and prophetic, haha. ^0^
Japonymouse wrote:
Youtube user usually tells or writes a title or a comment that the video is for application to certain kpop contests. Other than that, most kpop cover videos are for fun. They do it because they think it is so cool.
Jpop covers are rarely on youtube, because especially jpop girl groups look and dance like cute kindergarten children. It is really embarrassing for the youth to cover jpop dancing singers. 손발 오그라든다. ^^
Japonymous,
The VAST majority of Kpop covers – song covers, dance covers, and even MV covers – are for fun.
Focus: The covers caused the contests, not the reverse.
If there’s a contest involved, the top prize is a free CD – maybe a CD that is autographed, and the people who participate in these contests are the ones who’d be putting up covers regardless. Some of them indeed, simply reuse or retitle their videos to fit the contest.
What’s interesting is that some of these contests have NOTHING to do with Kpop but end having entries that involve Kpop. I saw a contest set up by a makeup vlogger recently. She set up a contest and in turn a lot of people started putting up entries that in some way had something to do with Kpop.
Here’s one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0yfROZ2rnM
I’ve seen other examples for the same contest involving British youtubers- yes, white teenager girls in England- playing Kpop. Again, these people who do the contests usually put up other covers which have nothing to do with contests.
So you are wrong. As usual. It’s obvious you hang way too much with people who don’t like Korea. Your brain unloads as if it’s been subjected to at least 4 years anti-Korea programming set up by Japanese. And that makes you a tool — and I say this as a person who has initially tried giving you a ton of credit.
In fact, I started reading this thread from the bottom-up, seeing posts by pawi and Q, thinking “Oh jeez, these dudes are overreacting…” — but then again I didn’t yet see the difficult moron in their midst.
Pawii-
- Kara is HUGE in Japan. So is Girls Generation. I explicitly pointed it out when I mentioned that I feared that the rush to get more and more groups quickly in Japan may dilute the brand, ala Froyo in NYC. The growth of Kpop in Japan in a great thing for Korea and a great thing for Japan. But, alas, you apparently don’t read what I wrote, and only zoom in on stuff you imagine shows my hatred. Ok Pawii. Everyone who disagrees with you is a hater… funny thing is we aren’t really disagreeing. What the Kara comment you show, however, brings to light another issue that threatens the success of Kpop in Japan. When the boys from TVXQ found real self-sustaining success in Japan, they broke up as well. The system has cracks, and I hope they are worked out soon.
- Thanks for calling me young. I appreciate it! I wasn’t talking about culture in general. The Japanese government has put money into growing its soft power through support of Japan Societies and Peace Corp. type programs, much like Korea. These programs have served both countries well. Korea is much more aggressive about growing their pop culture, and this may have more to do with the timing of said growth (occurred in the heart of the internet era, as opposed to the analog 70s) than it does with cultural difference. I know for example, american companies that have made quite a killing importing and licencing Japanese cartoons and comics. They did not make their money from government subsidies, it was all organic. I’m also NOT saying that but for Korean government efforts, none of this success would have occurred, Quite the contrary, based on my BSG theory, this was bound to happen… and China is next (though as I argued once before, China is already there… especially if we go by your correct theory that success is not measured by what whitey watches… and India ala Bollywood has been there for upwards of 40 years now. Travelling to Kyrgyzstan in 1993, I was struck by the popularity of Indian cinema there. Those guys have done a great job projecting soft Power). This has hapened before and this will happen again.
- As to your sour grapes argument… I once again suspect you have no idea what you are talking about, as you apparently have no connection to Japan. Japan is in no way trying to project their pop culture out in the same manner that Korea is. In the 1980′s and 1990′s when Japanese culture was huge in Korea, despite the government ban, the Japanese government COULD NOT do anything about it. Subsidizing the smuggling of such goods would not have done much good to the 2 cold war allies relations. There is no money to be made for Japanese artists in Korea (unless they are willing to sell Chicken) and Japan in general is more about their domestic market than their export market. Their pop-culture market is self-sustaining, and for the most part, the industry is tailored to that market. Korean star makers are busy hiring US producers and constantly marketing this point. Heck, they are even hiring Japanese producers when entering the Japanese market. Smart moves IMHO. You may want to say that my actually discussing the differences inherent in the economic market as “sour grapes” – that’s your choice… but I noticed you made no comments on the actual substance of what I wrote.
- Yes, it really is the boasting thing that riles people up. If the boasting was toned down a few levels, these posts would have almost no negative comments. Its just like interpersonal relations… no one like a boaster. Boasting is usually a sign of immaturity and a lack of self confidence. As the successes become more concrete, the boasting will hopefully fall with it. It’s the D-War effect. The Rain Ripple…
αβγδε – again, you missed my other points, which are:
- when these covers first started up, they were getting maga-hits as they were going viral in Korea. Teenagers love attention. This type of viral appreciation of foreigners singing Jpop is just not there in Japan. They would make it inti Korean newspapers. You would not see this with Jpop.
- I am not saying only Asians appreciate this stuff!!! I was answering a question asked of me. I was aware of competitions out there, and I was aware of a general culture that encourages “UCC” creation in Korea, that really isn’t there in Japan. I was also aware of constant contests (heck to a Teenager, even winning a CD is pretty boss! Especially if they go viral – in a good way – as a result)
- Thanks for calling me a moron because I don’t think exactly the same way as you. Well played. Classy!
Oh, and despite my statement that I would not engage Q in discussion, I will give him credit where credit is due. He wrote:
_____________
Jpop covers are rarely on youtube, because especially jpop girl groups look and dance like cute kindergarten children. It is really embarrassing for the youth to cover jpop dancing singers.
______________-
I think there is some truth to this. The “Morning Musume” and “AKB48″ style does not travel well outside of Asia. This also goes to the heart of my argument on the market reality. Jpop can be sustained domestically, and thus Jpop is made for domestic consumption. Note I say Jpop, and not other types of Japanese music,
Oh hell yeah, they are. What do you call anime?
One of my favorite anime series is Azumanga Daioh. If you’re smart, you realize that, in essence, the show is a tourism brochure and is nutritive to the extent that it gets into bits of Japanese culture that would be useful to non Japanese.
One can even argue that anime characters are drawn the way they are- as caucasians- 90% of the time for that very purpose, ie, to appeal to a non-Japanese demographic. But – not a simple issue.
I’ll tell you what riles me up: Folks like you who hang out way too much with people or at sites that bolster this thing about Koreans boasting anything. If there’s hype in one direction, there’s also hype of the hype. You live the latter. I can smell it everytime you breathe.
Going viral -in Korea- is hardly the goal behind the videos, although that can happen. Yet excuse me as I sigh in that certain frustration again. You’re ultimately saying that people post stuff on Youtube to be watched. Wow. That’s quite an accusation there, and a devastating point. No wonder I think you’re such a genius, so smart that your rationalizations always end up taking you everywhere and nowhere at the same time.
What you miss is that motivation for these youtubers who are not Korean and are into Korean music and post about it, are coming primarily from peers who are also not Korean and are into Korean music and post about it. That’s why when I say that Korean pop scene is alive, I don’t lie.
Japanymouse, no one cares about your stupid jpop anymore. And only in that mush brain of yours would you link kpop with froyo and d-war. I mean seriously man, froyo? wtf. I know you’re bitter that your precious jpop has been eclipsed but you might want to give the otaku wanking a rest. You don’t even realize that you’ve been had by a certain provocateur who only boasts to get under the skin of reactionaries like yourself.
Koreans music industry did not produce songs targeting foreigners. Good evidence is most of expats at MH do not like kpop. LOL. Koreans did not anticipate kpop got so popular in unexpected places. It is kinda “butterfly effect.” Many of overseas kpop fans used to be fans of Japanese music. They found out kpop more exciting and fit into their preference. It is not much about Korean government support of culture industry. If that is true, communist countries’ propaganda music must be viral all over the world.
Let’s take a look at events promoted by the government of Japan. JAPAN EXPO in Paris has drawn hundreds thousands Europeans for many years.
) to Korean government. Japanese culture industry promoted by Japanese government has much longer and wider influence in Europe. Korea is so very new in Europe. Korean kpop did not dare to go to Europe before kpop unexpectedly got popular in Europe through youtube. No Korean music CDs have been published in Europe yet.
At the EXPO, Japanese have promoted Japanese pop culture industry, such as manga, anime, music, etc. If you count the role of a government, Japan has much more superiority (hope Japanese superiority-inferiority complex satisfied with this.
Very classy Japanese mind. I would say Japanese hiding their true emotion and thought is not necessarily mature or humane. That is why many Japanese cannot bear the internal conflicts in their minds and end up committing suicide, which is so pervasive and embedded in Japanese society for the long history of Japan. I do not think it is a sign of maturity. It is a sign of mental illness.
BTW, why do you get so defensive about Japanese music in the thread about kpop? Nobody asked you why jpop was not so successful as kpop. That’s why I thought you were overreacting.
My comment # 172 is to Japonymous.
Korea has the highest suicide rate among all the 30 Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development member countries, according to a report by the Ministry of Health and Welfare yesterday.
An average 24.3 people per 100,000 die every year from suicide in Korea, followed by an average of 21 in Hungary, 19.4 in Japan..
May want to check your facts there, chief.
@ iheartblueballs,
Thanks for reminding me of it. I know that. But it is a recent phenomenon of industrialized postmodern Korea. I was saying that the culture of ceremonial suicide is deeply embedded in the society of Japan for the “long history of Japan.” It is not much pervasive in traditional Korean culture.
In that sense, Koreans need to restore a sense of Korean tradition. Thanks to some expats in Korea for their love of hanok and Korean traditional culture.
You guyys are still arguing over this? KPOP, I tell you , you guys are fighting over KPOP!??. Oh my god.
WHat does it matter? If it’s a fraud perpetuated by Koreans on Youtube, then it will flop in time. If it’s real, then the real fans will make it popular.
Why not you guys stop arguing and just wait it out and see? It will be evident in due time, whether you will get your wish or not.
This controversy is just ridiculous.
@ cm,
You are very true, haha. Have a nice day!^^
I was subscribed to a singer/kpopper who’d do covers of Korean songs on Youtube. Her name is “MoA” (Melody of Angel) and she had an account under the name of “givemesomemoa” — her covers were fucking fabulous.
She made English covers of the songs mostly, but sometimes covered songs in their original Korean.
Her English covers were awesome — she was a fantastic lyricist.
Now, why am I writing about her in the past tense? Because she uploaded a video of herself singing, for the first time – her previous videos were audio only. — And she was <a href="http://melodyofangelmoa.blog.com/" outed.
It turns out “MoA” is actually a gorgeous, signed Swedish artist, a part of the folk pop duo “First Aid Kit.”
I just found all of this out. I was thinking about contests because of this thread and was reminded of the one that 2NE1 set up themselves, and to which “MoA” responded (which she did quite reluctantly – contest requires video of one singing), when I discovered she deleted her account, her twitter account about her covers and Kpop, and her formspring and facebook accounts.
I can’t find that video of her singing in her room by a microphone. She’s a looker – although, the 2008 video I’ve seen of her singing as a part of her Swedish folk duo may have one thinking otherwise.
Anyway, even signed Swedish artists are Kpoppers, apparently.
A few fans have revived a few of MoA’s covers already and they can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mN0PaltrGo
And FirstAidKit’s website:
http://thisisfirstaidkit.com/
(Scroll down, she’s the one sitting on the right.)
A great cover of 2ne1′s “It Hurts”, by “MoA”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTXSvil6a_Q
She proved to be influential considering that so many Youtubers who cover Kpop songs in English use her lyrics – the lyrics she wrote and adapted to the songs. And, yes, all for fun!
@168
Ooops. My bad. i mean Jpop. Not pop-culture. Please note however that if you read my posts (and i realize that there is lots to read, and frankly… why bother… BUT, I think your anger here stems from the fact hat you have not read the full exchanges) you will note that I did specifically raise the manga and anime point. I would stress however, that from my direct experience on this (a close friend is senior management at one of the bigger US distributors), we are not talking about gov’t involvement here. Most of the major distributors of this type of culture are not even ethnically Japanese. The company my friend works for was started by a guy who saw people selling bootleg anime at a star trek convention in the 1980s. He started writing the companies that made the anime. Started buying licenses, and was a millionaire in like a year. Pokemon was brought over by an American expat living in Tokyo. Power Rangers mad one Israeli-American businessman a Billionaire. The Ring and the The Grudge made one Korean-American lawyer a Hollywood Producer Superstar, and a multi-millionaire. So, though I was limiting my example to Jpop (but mistakenly wrote “pop culture” – the same basic rules seem to apply here. The intellectual property was actively brought in and distributed from the outside. There was no economic necessity for an outward push. Again though, BSG analogy. History will repeat itself. In Japan, for example, Jpop and other popular culture content is already being “pulled” in by major Japanese production companies – but the Japan example is not the best one, as (despite the government posturing) we are talking about industries that are already tied closely together. In the States, we have already had the successful re-make of a Korean movie (The Lake House) and a remake of a Korean comic (The Priest) which have been “pulled” in… and this trend will continue. The point I have been trying to make are tied in to the similarities and differences in the Kpop and Jpop markets.
-First off, they are at different stages of development (Kpop is working on an adjusted Jpop model).
- Kpop is, due to domestic market forces, in a position in which it can only grow via Interantional expansion. A successful K-pop biz model thus MUST contain plans for International expansion. Not many J-pop bands have sprinkles of Chinese and Thai members, added in specifically to draw in that market. Not many Jpop bands sing in languages other than Japanese. Successful K-pop bands AS A RULE sing in AT LEAST 2 languages… in the case of the Wonder Girls… three. Kpop production companies are actively putting together acts with an International flavor, different colored passports and, more and more US producers. Are they singing in Chinese for the Korean market? Are they giving key spots to ethnic Thais and Chinese for the Korean market? They are clearly (and wisely) looking for overseas penetration.
- As Jpop is not actively seeking said penetration (though J-porn clearly is, though with a censored mosaic – just a quick shout out to Pawii and his Japanese porn references) there is no active need for government support on this front. The Le Figaro article as well as a slew of other articles make said government support clear. Am I stating that said government support is the only reason that Kpop has spread. No. Ofcourse not. Am I pointing out that siad support (and subsidies at times) are yet another difference between the Jpop and Kpop markets. Yes.
As to your boasting argument, unfortunately the Korean English language press is just that, a boasting PR mouthpiece. It may be said English language press that is pushing that view. The view, however, exists. Exists in spades. I would ask you why you think it is unfair. Seriously. Frankly the vehemence in which I am being attacked for daring to imply that dynamics of the Kpop market are different from those in Jpop, would lead me to believe that the general view may not be all that wrong. I have seen it time and time again. Posted my favorite examples of said boasting (the BBQ Chicken franchise videos) on my more or less dead blog. there are also scores of expat blogs that comment almost exclusively on said boasting… many in a humorous manner. Heck, maybe it all stems fron the super-racist Remo Williams crappola movie that dresses a white guy up in make up spouting retarded lines about Korea being number 1. Maybe it stems from the bus billboards I would have no choice but to look at in Flushing, Queens, advising me of how many Gold medals Korea bagged, and how many other outstanding things Korea has done… and oh, by the way, don’t forget Dokdo. I really can’t say where this view comes from in general (though, with me, I’d say its the billboards, and going to a school in NYC with lots and lots of Korean kids… who, btw, reminded me a heck of a lot of the Greek kids I grew up with as far as the boasting was concerned…. oh, and I guess that’s also why I “appreciate” you calling me a “moron” – your user name is Greek, and you insult me in Greek… classic!)
As to, “You’re ultimately saying that people post stuff on Youtube to be watched. Wow. That’s quite an accusation there, and a devastating point.” Yes. That is what I am saying. Its kinda like that “Numa Numa” song guy. when that worked, everyone tried to do the “Numa Numa” thingy. The Kpop cover thing works for hits. AND, more importantly, AGAIN, I was asked a question, and came up with an answer, which frankly, makes sense, and covers part of the situation. Did I stop what I was doing to respond with a carefully cited to brief… no. Do I recognize that part of the answer is that Kpop is probably more popular right now than Jpop… ofcourse. See my reasoning above.
I’m repeating, however, that I do not put much wait to the whole Youtube hit argument. All these internet hit thingies and votes can and have been manipulated… and NO, not just by K-pop fanatics. BUT, we know, for example that major US press agencies and publications have actually stopped or lessened the value of their online polls for exactly the K-pop fanatic voting/hit issue.
As to, “That’s why when I say that Korean pop scene is alive, I don’t lie.”
No, you don’t lie. This is particularly true in Japan and the rest of Asia.
Though you don’t lie, it doesn’t take away from the fact that you are downright rude and uncivil. Have I ever once insulted you personally, or questioned your intelligence for having a slightly or significant different view from me? And, this isn’t just about you . i mean Jeez! Can’t people on this board just get along! Really, there are some interesting issues being discussed, and a simple , “I disagree, as…” would suffice. A “I disagree, ‘cuz you are a moron….” Or, “”Oh yeah! You’re only bitter ‘cuz [fill in random insult to one's family here...] or, “Those [put racist term here] all suck…” is… well… disappointing. Especially as it seems that you are an example of someone who can do just fine holding their own in a discussion without the use of such blunt instruments. This is not the case for everyone on this blog…
TF@171 – Good point. I don’t personally care for Jpop, and actually find Kpop to be more appealing at this time. Production value and training are better.
And you were right, I was pushed into taking a certain position, with Pawii’s sour grapes” argument. My main point was just that the Kpop industry is actively seeking to expand internationally, while Jpop is not. This is thus, not a pissing contest. My point here is NOT that the whole thing is an internet invention. I just don’t trust the internet as a truly accurate tool of popularity, and thus put less weight on such metrics. It’s not quite there yet. Too many metrics. Trending can be measured by the second. Hits and votes can be manipulated.
Also, when Q makes a good point, I fully recognize it as well. He stated, “Koreans did not anticipate kpop got so popular in unexpected places. It is kinda “butterfly effect.” Initially I also believe that it was an unexpected (and well deserved) surprise.
Again, my fault for falling into the “sour grapes” trap.
@ Japonymous,
Just wanna share with you a news report on SM Town kpop concert in Paris. Many English interviews and reactions.
http://youtu.be/GFFditYMFBU
J,
We’ve been through this routine before.
It’s like arguing with a wall.
Even in the other thread about Kpop, even in the very while you are conceding to several things, retreating from initial strong positions, you do it throughout with such an obvious, grudging reluctance, peppering your posts ultimately with qualifiers like “probably” and such. It’s like you just can’t accept the basic truth that Kpop is genuinely popular without your need to somehow weigh it down and drown it with arguments like the ones above that just go absolutely nowhere.
In this thread, for example, look at the way you are slinking from the “Youtube Cover” argument, trying everyway to hint at the idea that somehow that too is ultimately meaningless and not an indicator of popularity.
So, I am rude and uncivil toward walls. I admit it. Sorry. I am what I am. A dialectical bigot toward walls.
But I appreciate your patience with me. You’re not a bad guy. But again this is a routine we’ve been through before. It’s fruitless.
I hope there’s a reader out there who appreciates that bit of insider sub-trivia about Kpoppers, such as MoA, and Youtube subculture. Just so happens to be 100% relevant to this thread.
MoA had been around for a while – perhaps over a year.
I am watching this video of First Aid Kit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDG8xqz7BIk
Moa is the blonde one. I like the music.
Again, Alpha, i am not the one who raised the Youtube cover argument. Q raised it. I thought about his question, and I responded as best I could. All the points I raise, i believe to still be valid.
- Kpop is presently more international than Jpop. Said internationalism is inherent in its business model. As the industry is making a conscious effort to reach outside its borders, there will of course be more international covers.
- Many of the covers are the result of contests. you even note that the MOA act you pointed out was initially tied in to a contest. such contests are either Government or industry.
- there is a market for foreigners covering Kpop acts on Youtube. several such acts have led to $$$ compensation, and spates of popularity. this creates an incentive for other to do the same.
- Alluded to this one, though never spelled it out: Korea is far more internet savvy than Japan. Last I heard, most Japanese still do most of their internet use off of “iMode” – NTT Docomo’s mobile web portal type system. Internet Cafes, though present, are no where nearly as prevalent as they are in Korea. internet games such as Starcraft, no where near as popular.
Again… this was NOT the point of my initial post. In 122 you posted: “We haven’t seen this sort of pop culture rife anywhere since the 80s America” referencing the Idol generating machine that has become Kpop.
I merely pointed out that I disagreed, and pointed out that this is merely another step in the whole “history repeats itself – especially when a similar model is followed” school of thought. 30 years ago Jpop ruled throughout Asia. Now its Korea’s turn. I then pointed out that there are differences in the models, including more active attempts to internationalize (singing in foreign languages, getting foreign group members) and more active government support (all along pointing out that the Japanese government HAS supported other types of soft power in the past, but not so much the pop-music side). Look, even like 15 years ago when my Korean-american (via Brazil) friend first showed me a Korean drama (playing on one of the 3 Korean channels accessible at the time for free in NYC – there were only 2 Spanish channels at the time) I was surprised to see that the program was subtitled in both Spanish and English. The Japanese dramas that were aired on one of the Korean (or Spanish?) channels on Sundays dubbed nothing. that’s when i first noticed the difference in the ultimate aspirations behind both products.
And there is no routine here. I could make the argument that you are just as much of a “wall” as I – but I’m not, because I have no desire to dehumanize you. I did not EVER respond to ANY of the posts on this thread saying that the there was no concert in France, and that the fans were paid to attend or some such nonsense. I responded to your note that Korea is the first country to successfully push the idol biz since the US in the 1980s. My own academic interest led me to compare and contrast the Jpop and Kpop models. I never once said that one was better than the other, I merely stated that they were similar (as one followed and was more or less initially based on the other) and that I was interested in what differentiated the two.
I did however fall for the “sour grapes” trap as TF pointed out astutely. Oh and TF, the Froyo comment was about a certain “jump on a successful bandwagon” mentality that I have seen before in NY, and I fear may lead to a recession of the Kpop boom in Japan, and my D-War (as well as Rain, BBQ Chicken, etc.) comment was made as a “boasting” example. I am, however, very open to further discussing the boasting point, as this is something I would love to hear different views and perspectives on….
“Many of the covers are the result of contests. you even note that the MOA act you pointed out was initially tied in to a contest. such contests are either Government or industry.”
— NO! MoA is ULTIMATELY, not intially, tied into a contest. She had been doing covers- without a face – for a quite a while now. It was for fun and now she’s deleted her account, youtube, twitter, and whatever else that was related to her Kpop covers since her real identity has been outed.
My comment about you in #183 pretty much says it all; and 185 proves it. But you won’t understand that, of course.
Alpha, thank you for clarifying the MOA situation. You seem to be very into her and her music. Glad to see that.
Thanks for also ending your post with an insult. Classy. The sad thing is that but for the anonymity of the interwebs, I’m pretty confident that we could have an interesting discussion on this matter where we could both have a considerable take away, with out the insults. What is it about this medium that turns usually perfectly reasonable individuals into rude [fill in expletive here]. Yeah… Yeah… i get it. I’m a moronic wall incapable of rational thought because we don’t see eye to eye on every detail of your world view.
Well, it doesn’t matter if I’m classy or not. The point is that I’m right.
If the majority of covers that we see on Youtube are for fun, then that pretty much puts to shit all the grasping at straws you keep doing here – the same crap you’ve been doing even when you seem to be conceding a point.
What’s more, the vast majority of the covers that people do that ARE related to a contest, however lucrative or trivial its ends, are done by people who do covers anyway and would be posting them regardless.
You have the attributions wrong (the covers/popularity caused the contest, not the reverse) and you are unable to place such in the proper context and I’ll put it to you, again, this way: If, by far, most people putting up covers are doing so for fun, then what does it matter all these other lame considerations you keep bringing up? THEY DON’T MATTER.
Ignore my well-deserved ad hominems and consider the logic. Or better yet just trust me, dammit.
I’m not arguing that said covers are not a reflection of popularity. I was asked why there were more K-pop covers then J-pop covers. I gave my views.
I also pretty consistently give my views on the whole internet as measure of popularity thing. I have heard google trending stats, you tube hit stats, online survey stats (and on and on and on) being touted as absolute measurements of popularity or success. At times, like the Numa Numa guy, or that “Friday” 14yo girl who has like 200,000,000 hits and became a sensation in like 45 minutes, we do get the meme or two that may indicate actual popularity or awareness, but for now, I will agree with you and say that even with the contest guys that post, posting these videos are usually done for fun.
One take away I get from this whole thread is that the “You Tube Cover” meter is one that is possibly being pushed as a sign of Kpop’s success. Your postings led me to dig around a bit, and for that I am grateful I like learning new things.
As to my qualification of things I say, like “probably” and the like, this is done as I have never been to France, and I have no idea what is going on there one way or another. I have, however, been to America… lived in NYC during the crest of the reported Kpop invasion. The Korea based English language press was boasting of “Times Square TV screens playing BOA videos non-stop” (It was a modestly sized monitor in Ktown, 32nd steet. NOT Times Square). Boasting about how Rain was the first Asian artist to successfully cross over to the States (BS on two fronts). Boasting about Rain’s nation wide sell-out concerts (most of which were cancelled and led to law suits galore). So, you will excuse me if I take such claims with a slight cup of NYC cynicism. Q, however, posted a good video indicating that the concert went well (again, I never claimed it didn’t) and as such I have no qualms declaring that the concert went well. I also have no qualms declaring that Kara and GG (Oh wow! I just realized that their initials make “Gee Gee” – duh! Maybe you were right about the moron part!! Like the time I realized that “Alphabet” came from “Alpha Beta”… in my 20s!!) are doing amazingly well in the Japanese market. But, I’ve lived in NY, and I live in Tokyo. I can judge based on personal experiences. I have never even been to Paris. I can make no concrete declaration on Kpop’s success in France one way or another, as I wouldn’t dream of attempting to paint Japanese rock band “X Japan” upcoming “World Tour” which includes Paris and London as an indication that Japanese rock is the bees knees in Europe.
Credit granted for “trust me, dammit” sign off. Indicates a sense of humor…
some white guy in japan writing REAMS on the dishonesty of k pop. something wrong here.
Pawii – next time, try tying “ream” into a Greek joke… trust me… comedy gold! Oh, and as usual you haven’t read what I wrote… though this time, I ABSOLUTELY don’t blame you!! Holy crappola! I wrote me a book there.
no, your shit too long to read. i got your number, friend.
*********************
i don’t remember the name of the group but whichever one sang ‘mirotic’ did a fine job in putting together the video. to me, these guys look like girls BUT they can dance and sing! the choreography and the song itself got quality written all over it. i can see why it appeals to people. it’s catchy and sleek.
)))))
just want to remind you guys about a korean sci-fi television series called ‘the joseon x files’ or 기찰비록. very well written. piece of eye candy too. have a watch. it might be at dramafever for free, i don’t know. if you’re a collector, it would be money well spent.
Japanese government-run JAPAN EXPO in Paris in 2010 attracted 182,000 people. Many Japanese entertainers and singers were there to promote Japanese culture such as Tsukasa Hojo, Noriyuki Iwadare, Morning Musume, An Nakahara, Hiro Mashima, Seikima-II, HITT & Guests, Jun Mochizuki, Suika, die!!die!!color!!!, Kazue Kato, Anipunk, Aya Kanno, Gibier du Mari, X Japan, ViViD.
In 2009, JAPAN EXPO attracted 164,000 people. Jpop singers and entertainers were there such as CLAMP, AKB48, Shinichirō Watanabe, Moriyasu Taniguchi, Mizuho Nishikubo, Mitsuhisa Ishikawa, Shiori Furukawa, Akemi Takada, Natsuki Takaya, Sakae Esuno, Daisuke Nishijima, Dai Sato, Hitoshi Ichimura, Tetsuya Nishio, Junko Takeuchi, Takami Akai, Akemi Hayashi, Kazuya Hatazawa, Showtaro Morikubo, Hikari Yamaguchi, Yuuichiro Hirata, Shintaro Akiyama, Ryousuke Katoh, Kanon Wakeshima, Benjamin (Zhang Lin), Ji Di (Zu Ya-Le), Aurore, Benjamin Reiss, Ludo Lullabi, School Food Punishment, Ra:IN.
JAPAN EXPO in Paris has taken place since 1999 and attentants and size of the convention get growing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Expo
Is Jpop only for domestic market? I do not think so. Japanese governmnet has invested a lot for the promotion of Japanese pop culture in Europe.
Korean govenment support is not much compared with Japanese government.
http://biz.heraldm.com/common/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110614000180
I really doubt that.
Q- thanks for that info. Interesting that the Japanese press is not advising me that 182,000 people in a convention is solid proof of a giant J-Wave on the verge of conquering the world
Look, Q, went to their site. Took a look. J-pop bands are like an after thought there. This convention is really about comics, and if you look at the sponsors, not only will you find that there is no Japanese Government or Agency sponsor, but there is even… wait for it.. a Korean company sponsor (GASP!!) Pucca!!! and who doesn’t love Pucca!
Sponsors listed here:
http://www.japan-expo.com/en/partenaires/?cid=3926a3ff62da54ed47c4b8e4d65e7b522011-06-30%2F2011-07-03%2F2011-06-30%2F
As Pawii would like to say, this is like a giant Otaku-convention. The J-pop bans are an afterthought. In fact, if you look at the bands present, J-pop bands are not really the main ones represented. they are more like the bands i mentioned gathered an organic following in the states 20 years ago. The kinda out there bands like Shonen Knife, and the bands that preform Anime hits.
I have never heard of a single on of these bands, and quite frankly, I would be shocked if a Japanese friend or acquaintance advised me that any of these guys were in the cutting edge of an international J-pop invasion:
http://www.japan-expo.com/en/menu_invite/musicians_137.htm?cid=3926a3ff62da54ed47c4b8e4d65e7b522011-06-30%2F2011-07-03%2F2011-06-30%2F&Step=8&YearID=8&Page=0
Further to this, not a single guest of honor is a musician. they are all anime/video game types:
http://www.japan-expo.com/en/menu_invite/guests-of-honor_50.htm?cid=3926a3ff62da54ed47c4b8e4d65e7b522011-06-30%2F2011-07-03%2F2011-06-30%2F
Again, Q, though I appreciate your research here, as I’m learning something from it as well, remember, I was not talking about all Japanese soft-power. I was talking about Pop music. Clearly there is a much more structured plan to extend K-pops reach internationally. Said plan is reaping rewards now. There is nothing wrong with said plan. IMHO it is a good plan and it is a successful plan.
You posting however, does speak to my boasting argument however. How do you think the Korean press would report a “Korea Expo” that drew about 200,000 visitors for a 4 day run…
and TK @195: In retrospect, I think I was being overly optimistic. Let’s just say that negative comments would decrease somewhat…
Thanks for being reasonable.
Hey TK, I strive to be reasonable where ever possible, and just as importantly, it is clear from both your posts here, and from your blog, that you do as well.
Oh, and speaking of Youtube generated fame and Rebecca Black… wow!
http://mashable.com/2011/06/13/katy-perry-last-friday-night-tgif-video/
Japonymous wrote:
Really? Let’s take a look at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan website:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/event/2009/6/1193058_1160.html
JAPAN EXPO foundation for the US also has this part:
http://www.japanexpo.org/en/top.html
Well, I know Japanese are not really jealous about the success of the kpop concert in Paris. It is ridiculous TV-Asahi and NHK have accused kpop related Korean news clips at youtube for copyright infringement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_4Tc468fnRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtux3qLzlwA&feature=player_embedded
I meant “Well, I know Japanese are NOW really jealous about the success of the kpop concert in Paris.” ^^;
Japonymous wrote:
Really? You’ve never heard of AKB48 and Morning Musume? They performed at the JAPAN EXPO in Paris.
And Japonymous wrote at #170:
You already knew Morning Musume and AKB48.^^
Japonymous also wrote:
X Japan performed at the JAPAN EXPO in Paris. The group made international tour in 2010 too.^^
So domestic, eh?
Let me further give you some past activities of AKB48.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AKB48
For Morning Musume, let me give you some :
So much domestic, eh, eh, eh?
Q, I don’t mean to be rude, but I will not respond to most of what you pointed, as it is not a response to what I wrote, and in fact at times, implies that I am taking a completely different position. I already mentioned that the Japanese government spend mucho $$$ on the expansion of softpower. My point was that Jpop is not the chosen (or secondary or tertiary) vehicle of said expansion of softpower anymore. More importantly my point was that the industry itself, in general, is not actively seeking international expansion, as there is no economic necessity to do so as the Japanese market is somewhat self-sustaining. AKB8 may have some kind of fan thingy in Singapore (again, not big news here) but the do not release English and Chinese versions of their songs.
Other quick points:
- I posted the line up of bands in the upcoming expo. AKB48 and Morning Musume were not included, though I can definitely see them as being there as they are cute and anime like in how they perform. But, again, I stated that I didn’t know any of THIS YEARS performers, and I wouldn’t dream of assuming that any one of them was a “world star: because they are going to an expo that 200,000 Europeans will be attending. The Japanese Press, may note it, but they will not be reporting it in a hyperbolic manner.
- X Japan is not Jpop. They are a rock band. I already mentioned that they do a better job transferring outside of Asia. But, more important, I’m the on e that posted to their “world” tour schedule, and I’m the one that mentioned that the Japanese press does not play that stuff up, and that this does not lead to talk of a Japanese cultural victory over the world. (Or as Pawii is fond of writing – “Korea is Rising” – again, this may be true, but nobody like a boaster) Remember?
- As to the Mofa link. Thanks. it is wise for them to participate, but I have no idea from that link to what extend they are participating. Are they just renting a few booths, for “Go! Japan” or “Ganbare Japan!” messages, or are they actually funding this thing? Their website implies the former. Also, as i mentioned time and time again, this is NOT a Jpop thing, and my main take away here is again my point on the boasting. I here nothing advising me of the importance of said expo meaning that Japan is a cultural powerhouse and that Europeans love their music. This may be because Japan is comfortable that their soft power is already mature, and that the Japanese music industry has already gone through the “I’ll Take Manhattan” stage… and failed… about 20 years ago. I do, however, thank you for the Mofo research. Good stuff and definitely shows some kind of government link.
As to your statement, “Well, I know Japanese are not really jealous about the success of the kpop concert in Paris. It is ridiculous TV-Asahi and NHK have accused kpop related Korean news clips at youtube for copyright infringement.” I’m sorry, I don’t quite understand what you are trying to convey here, and what the tie in to the thread is… copyright infringement by kpop? That’s a whole different story, and frankly a can of worms that I have no desire to open here. Both links are also dead.
Nonetheless, thank you for all the digging around you did, Much obliged!
So what? Korea is Korea and Japan is Japan. Kpop is winning an unexpected popularity in Europe. So Koreans got surprised and sometimes hyperbolic interpretation pops out from media. Japan has already long popularity of Japanese pop culture in Europe. So, no reason to surprise from Japanese whatever advance made in Europe. It is not because Japanese are more mature people.
It was Le Monde that reported “Korean Wave Sweeps Europe” “After conquering Asia, Kpop is now attacking the European market.” At first, many of Korean media took it as a face value. You know what? Some Korean media made points that the Le Monde report is not all about being favorable about kpop industry and there were some criticizm in the Le Monde.
http://www.ohmynews.com/NWS_Web/View/at_pg.aspx?CNTN_CD=A0001580891&CMPT_CD=P0000
I guess you cannot read Korean. Korea Herald news reported that government support for Korean Wave this year is 1,700 Mil won (about $1.2 M) and money allocated to kpop this is only 300 Mil won (about $ 250,000).
http://biz.heraldm.com/common/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110614000180
It is a real “shitty” amount of money to say that Korean government make large investment/policy to enhance national image in the world.
You’ve tried to compare Korea with Japan in every point to defend why Jpop is not much popular in Europe. So what? Nobody asked about jpop in this thread.
If you see “boast” in Koreans, I see “jealousy” in Japanese. Most Koreans do not have interest in jpop, because especially girl groups looks so childish. Korea goes her own way. Japan goes her own way. Cool?
“Korea goes her own way. Japan goes her own way. Cool?”
ABSOLUTELY cool!! I am not arguing that one economic model is better than an other. I am just saying they are different. Also, any info I posted explaining why one is more popular in [Europe, Youtube, Uranus, Etc.] was drafted as a response to your queries. You asked me, “well how do you explain this – or that?” and I did my best to answer.
Thanks for summarizing the Korean article. Those are good stats. I agree $250,000 is a paltry sum. A subsidy, but a small one indeed. Would be great to see stats on this over five or ten years. My feeling is that subsidies are no longer necessary for Kpop, as the industry has reached as state in which it can pay for these foreign pushes on their own. Again, however, my main point was how the market conditions made the internationalization of K-pop more “incentivized.” The industry itself is striving for overseas reach by hiring group members from outside Korea and by singing in foreign languages. IMHO, releasing a Wonder Girls Album in English, Korean and Chinese at the same time was brilliant. Hiring Thai, Chinese, Japanese, American and Canadian entertainers also a great idea! J-pop has never really cared enough to go outside to make these moves, and that has been to their detriment – if the “goal” is overseas market penetration.
Well, whatever. I try. I’m fascinated by comparative development and I love to gather more info on the subject, but i get attacked constantly. Best part is that nobody even comments on the main academic points, which i would love to have a discussion on. This is not just about pop music. Its really interesting to look at and study the way in which culture is packaged and marketed.
Again, i did not raise Jpop on this thread just to raise Jpop. I raised it ‘cuz Alpha declared that Korea is the first country to successfully build on the US “idol” market. This is patently untrue. This is a boast. I regret raising it, as i should have let said boast “lie.”
And, yes, I realize this is a controversial thing to say, but just look around at the “angry expat” Korea related blogs. The boasting thing comes up over and over again. You may say it doesn’t exist, but the question then is, why is there such a misconception? Seriously. that is my question. Reality is sadly not what exists but what is perceived.
Oh, and again, I appreciate again you links to certain relevant info, as well as your summary of the Korean article.
Thanks for taking time to reply.
No prob Q, and would appreciate it if you considered y perception argument… and again… this perceotion issue may stem from the different roles that the Japanese English language press and teh Koream Englisj language press, feel they play:
Kpop Invades Europe
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/06/13/2011061300450.html
Paris opens biggest-ever Japan Expo
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20100702a6.html
That’s not quite what I was saying. And perhaps you are focused too much on the financial aspects of music as an industry, whereas I am focused on it as a body of a socio-cultural sort.
I do acknowledge that Japan’s pop scene represents a clear contradiction to what I wrote. In fact, when I wrote what I wrote, I thought to myself that one can easily contradict me by mentioning Japan — there the “idol/fan” dynamic is just as strong if not stronger. Consider how in Japan even holographic idols – idols who don’t even exist in the flesh – are able to sell out concerts in Japan. But I suppose, ultimately, in some way, although I’m unable to hit directly at why, Japan doesn’t count because Japan does Japanese pop music, whereas I noted that Korean music is, in essence, Western music done by Asians, music brought make to the stage and to the microphone, in front of the fans. Add to this music, Kpop’s heavy prevalence of groups – boy bands and girl groups – and such, and you add a social character to the music which hasn’t existed in Western music for a long time. In my other post, I referenced the 80s and America. A better reference would have been to the 60s and America where the American “gasoo” and the stage seemed to be a more central and regular part of American life and its self-awareness. Kpop brings that personal gasoo/stage, gasoo/dance, gasoo/fan quality, if you will, back to life. And I believe people are drawn to it for that reason.
Again, Japan does this too. But, sort of, kind of, and at the same time, not really.
Alpha- Thanks for that. Now, that didn’t hurt, did it. Particularly like the way you concluded by “peppering . . . ultimately with qualifiers like “[sort of, kind of, and at the same time, not really]” and such.
Now you see guys. That went well. I listened to what you had to say, learned a thing or two, and adjusted my view. Even managed to do that sans “well-deserved ad hominems.” I’m hoping that the feelings are mutual, and Alpha’s last post indicates that at the very minimum, a [successful] attempt at reading what some one you may disagree with and attempting t “get it” in a respectful manner, indicates that the two way street of communication has been established. There are lots of people on this blog that don’t really care about dialogue and are merely trolling or fanatics one way or another. Those of us who do not fit into that category should really try to exchange our ideas in a civil and respectful manner.
@ αβγδε,
Hey, I found out MoA covers. A fan of MoA collected her songs and made a youtube channel. Hope you enjoy them.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MoAmelody90
I read MoA’s cover videos have disappeared because jealous Japanese youtube users accused MoA of copyright infringement. Youtube usually without serious investigation takes the accusation and delete the cover videos. Not only MoA, many kpop covers and kpop news have been deleted by the accusation of Japanese on copyright infringement. 2ch-like jealous Japanese seem quite active on youtube.
I’ve read that humans are descendants of space aliens, and that the world will end in 2012, because it forgot to end a month ago. Reading is Great! (Critical reading… not so much, I guess…)
Kpop cover videos got deleted with this message.
“This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement.”
They are jealous Japanese.^^
Q, have you posted here under a different account name?
I’ve already explained why the account “givemesomemoa” is down. Has nothing to do with “jealous Japanese.”
In fact, “MoA” had a previous account that was taken down due to multiple copyright infringement claims. However, one of them, was by YG Entertainment. When she got over her discouragement and set up another account, she was careful to start issuing copyright disclaimers over her videos and pages.
Aside from the high quality of her singing, her covers were unusually well produced. But the best part of her covers were her English lyrics. Her talent was obvious to me then and it makes a whole lot of sense now considering that she’s an indie-pop artist herself and all.
The same girl on TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuGclUJrfho
Q I find both the fact that there apparently is more than one person out there making wacky claims for the specific reason of creating more hate towards the Japanese, almost as fascinating as your uncritical analysis of said claims. Curious, what language did you read said claims in? Who wrote said claims? Maybe you?
I thought maybe I again misjudged you when I accused you of being an anti-Japanese racist, for refusing to recognize that the term “Jap” is hurtful, but I’m starting to think I was right all along…
Yesterday, the following kpop news videos were deleted with the notification that TV-Asahi and NHK accused them of copyright infringement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_4Tc468fnRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtux3qLzlwA&feature=player_embedded
Today, the NHK and Asahi-TV part has gone, haha. Ridiculous.^^ (I guess Japonymous or somebody reading this comment box must take some role)
It is not new that Japanese youtube users have accused Korea related videos of copyright infringement. It is prevalent phenomenon. Youtube clips of Kim Yuna was accused and deleted by copyright infringement report from K. Yamaguchi. It was reported on Korean news too:
http://media.paran.com/newsplus/view.kth?dirnews=410648&year=2010&key=2048&link=
Regarding MoA, this is what I read from a MoA fan:
You may be right. But it is true that many kpop covers and kpop news clips have been deleted by the accusation of jealous Japanese youtube users.
French kpopper Dicny videotaped this flash mob in Paris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AGYJy3rhAs
Japanese youtube users accused her that flashmob in Paris was organized by Korean media. They edited Dicny’s video to claim that kpop popularity was fabricated by Korean government.
フランスで韓流を捏造する韓国人のアホ 人気あるわけねえだろ
http://youtu.be/1vi_Q0sqUkk
Dicny got so offended by the Japanese youtube users. Now she shut off her comment box and wrote this:
At any rate, it is true a group of Japanese are jealous about kpop on youtube. They have been uploading a lot of Korea-hate videos and involved in deleting kpop videos. Kpop cover and news deletion was so prevalent that Korean netizens started reponding to it with this message:
Just a tip about what has been going on in the youtube kpop world.
I’m sorry Q. I can’t have this discussion with you. I don’t mean this as an insult, but it is clear that you know very little about intellectual property law and copyrights. Your links to Youtube indicating that NHK and TV-Asahi has requested that a video be removed, would indicate that the posted video probably contained content that is owned by NHK and TV-Asahi. Major US networks do the same thing, and I would be surprised if major Korean networks did not do the same thing as well. As I mentioned before, Japan may be the only country on the world that has more respect for IP rights than the US. This is one key reason that the Korean “culture” industry has wisely invested so much time, effort and money in the Japanese market. The market will pay a premium for CDs and DVDs. Piracy is not rampant. IP rights are respected.
As far as your other comments are concerned, I find it humorous how interested you are in internet flame wars. Apparently, however, its not just you that is interested, as the Korean press often posts the rantings of some 16yo Japanese kid who isn’t loved enough by his parents of being indicative of anything more than the views of 16yo Japanese kid who isn’t loved enough by his parents.
There are like 150 million people in Japan. 90% of which are probably not familiar with the term “flash mob” and 99.999999% who are probably not aware of a Paris based flash mob set up by Kpop fans. I will say this, however… the Youtube link you had is interesting in that it clearly shows a bunch of young Korean men orchestrating the show, with a whole load of Korean Press guys with camera. Before viewing your link, quite frankly, I would have not even though about whether or not said “mob” was organized by “Koreans” (ominous gong in background). Might be ‘cuz I’m a cynical NYer and I assume that anything with a commercial tie-in has some kind of PR agency spin added to it. Now, however, I would question just how much of a “native French event” that flash mob was. But again, who cares. As the recent Google-Facebook conflict shows, we are now in a media faze where the PR guys are the news guys…
Oh, and as to, “At any rate, it is true a group of Japanese are jealous about kpop on youtube.”
Yeah. Sure. “A group of” anyone posts some stupid garbage of Youtube all the time. I can’t imagine what my life was like if I just ran Youtube searches to see anti-Greek videos mad by Turks, or anti-Turk videos made by Greeks.
Japonymous wrote:
NHK and TV-Asahi part has mysteriously gone in a day. They were not at all Japan-related news. They were news about SM Town concert in Paris. What the heck is NHK and TV-Asahi claim their copyright on Korean TV news clip? ^^
I do not blame all Japanese. There are good and conscientious Japanese. I respect and love them. But it is true that many Japanese youtube Korea-haters get involved in uploading Korea-hate videos and deleting kpop cover and news videos.
For sure, European kpop fans started realizing how much Japanese youtube users hate Koreans with their lies.^^
@218,
Well, that’s interesting.
Here’s another thing that interests me now considering the commentators on board here. I’m pretty sure the trolls infesting her channel lately are the same trolls whose thoughts and sentiments are those that Japonymous are quite familiar with.
Not saying Japonymous is a troll. He intends to be reasonable, taking a sort of bona-fide mediator sort of role here, but it’s obvious the dude goes through a Japanese brain-reprogramming process on some regular basis, and can’t help it. In other words, a lot has rubbed off on him, and I notice the result is that his stance is fundamentally the same as that of those trolls on Youtube. But whereas these trolls operate by making ultimately baseless accusations, Japonymous replaces that with a lot of insuation and a cynicism that doesn’t seem to be able to get a clue; the satisfaction point for both the trolls and Japonymous are pretty much the same.
But, Q, I’m not so sure about you either. ‘Na mean?
Sometimes the kyopos on this board, myself included, we all start to seem at least a little stereotypical ourselves.
K-Expats too.
Difference is that my interest in such things is natural. I’m Korean. Q, I believe you are Korean too. It takes less exterior motivation to delve in such issues, the motivation is less questionable. Can’t say the same for the others here. It’s like Pavlov’s dog. Your interest here would have to be the result of a lot of conditioning that is not yours and is exterior to you. I can sense that, which is why I tend to be rather harsh with “tools” when I see them.
Just a thought.
Yeah, I am Korean and I guess my quoting too much makes you feel like I am a tool. But I cannot help but be me!
Q- Again, I do not mean this as an insult, but you don’t seem to understand copyright law. I have not seen the videos, as they are not available, but my guess is that they contained some kind of IP owned by NHK and TV Asahi. Would the posted video be considered a breach of IP rights by a US, Japanese or Korean court? I have no idea, as I did not view the videos, and my familiarity with Korean and Japanese copyright law is even more so limited than my familiarity with US copyright law. Youtube, however, does not want to be caught in the middle on this stuff, and will usually just remove if asked to do so by a major media outlet. By random Japanese trolls on the other hand… doubt it.
Alpha at 222 – I tried. Really. I did. I will not even delve into your attempt at Mentalist heights psychoanalysis, but I will say you are wrong on the “Japanese brain-reprogramming process.” And, as I said before but for the rudeness that the ether of the net can bring on, I’m sure that quite a few of the posters on “opposite sides” of threads of this blog could probably have a great time chatting away over a beer or two or three or seven.
You just go ahead and classify all you want. Put people into boxes. That’s fine. Sad part is that in your last post, I actually thought you were attempting to take the jump from insults sprinkled with the reasoning of an inflexible advocate, to dialogue. I was wrong. Enjoy putting yourself and others into boxes. A shame as you are clearly capable of discussion and have a sense of humor (main reason I ever even respond to Pawii is that the guys can be funny).
As to “It takes less exterior motivation to delve in such issues, the motivation is less questionable.” – ummmm… forget it.
Other flashmob events.
One in Spain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfH30ap36cY
One in another part of France, Bardoux:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRAJ2zHls80
One in Geneva:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7q2jMQTwVo
And a small one in Bilbao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ago9YVluhk4
Notice the dates on these events — they all happen between April 30 and May 1. (The one that happened in Paris was on May 1.)
Just more fodder for thought.
Hey, Japonymous — You’re welcome!
We can all use a little insight about ourselves. :p
“Youtube, however, does not want to be caught in the middle on this stuff, and will usually just remove if asked to do so by a major media outlet. By random Japanese trolls on the other hand… doubt it.”
FYI, it only takes a few “flags” by – anyone – to get a video taken down from Youtube for copyright.
Another FYI — SBS (of Korea) takes down every one of their videos from Youtube regardless. They do so by using certain videographic algorithms that search for their logo. This is why users who post up SBS content either block out the SBS logo or upload mirrored versions of the video. Other Korean channels don’t seem to care so much.
Alpha – thanks for that info on flagging, but i just find it difficult to believe that they would remove a video based on a copyright infringement claim by a third party. Shall I “just trust you” on this one
Wait… just looked into it. apparently requires that someone claims that they own said content. Hmmmm…. and apparently anyone can claim anything they want. There is, however. a review process.
Thanks also for the SBS info. That makes sense.
Japonymous wrote:
Click on this Korean news on SM town in Paris clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_4Tc468fnRU
It was deleted by “third-party notifications of copyright infringement.”
Got it. you posted that before. I’m just curious as to how you think you now who removed it.
sorry: “How you think you know requested to have it removed.”
Why do you hate kpop so much Japanymouse?
The video was deleted by NHK and TV-Asahi accusation of copyright infringement. I saw it yesterday. Now the NHK and TV-Asahi part mysteriously disappeared from the announcement. I guess some idiots faked copyright of NHK and TV-Asahi on the Korean kpop news.
that explains why I’ve been seeing mirror image videos of Korean TV clips lately…
OK Q. Sadly, unless we start working at Youtube, we will never really know which third party flagged what. Taking a page out of Alpha’s psychoanalysis book, the way one interprets the situation speaks volumes as to where their heads are at.
TF@232: Brilliant! In my book you have just made the jump to “healthy sense of humor” as Pawii did before you (wait… wasn’t the accusation that you and Pawi were the same guy made a while back… or was it Pawii and somebody else… don’t remember… and doesn’t matter. Well played!)
Korean netizens already find out at 2ch that Japanese spreading manual how to shut down kpop videos and any clips positive on Korea. Japanese have been doing that to Kim Yuna videos too.
http://gall.dcinside.com/list.php?id=kara&no=2237115&page=1&bbs=
Yeah, Q. Flame wars between losers is sadly an international phenomenon regardless of borders. A loser is a loser is a loser. Try not to put much value on the stuff those flame war guys are doing, regardless of the country the supposed info is coming from.
Let me tell you more in detail how 2ch Japanese have mobilized people. The Japanese manual encourages Japanese to go to this copyright website:
http://www.tv-copyright.jp/offer/input.html
Then, check on “ユーチューブ” (youtube in Japanese). Anyone can fake a TV company and a program name. The result?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieRsuiskQvA
That’s how Japanese have shut down popular kpop cover videos and news clips in youtube.
A French TV program reported SM Town in Paris. I cannot understand French but it seems a favorable video to kpop.
http://youtu.be/j5Hq5kUGLlU
You can see the viedo is a mirror image. Hope this video can survive rabid anti-kpop (Japanese) youtubers.
Dj Masa of Brazil just released his latest mega-mashup Kpop mix:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiTxUhvxUIw
It’s a bi-annual thing. He’ll release his second mega-mix toward the end of the year.
And while I’m at it, here’s a violin cover of a Kpop song. I believe the girl is American. She might be British.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHLumDMCPH8
the french report on k pop has now been translated. why? the girl who put it up got tired of people saying the report just made fun of k pop. uh no, it didn’t. can someone tell me if the fans in that report were paid by sm entertainment or the korean government? these kinds of things are the korea basher’s worst fears.
Another French report on the Kpop concert:
K-Pop : le jour où la fièvre de la pop coréenne a gagné Paris
http://www.rue89.com/2011/06/12/k-pop-le-jour-ou-la-fievre-de-la-pop-coreenne-a-gagne-paris-208969
[English translation] K-Pop: the day the fever of the Korean pop won Paris
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.rue89.com/2011/06/12/k-pop-le-jour-ou-la-fievre-de-la-pop-coreenne-a-gagne-paris-208969&ei=Ncf6TeJt1Ju3B-TC_LsO&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DK-Pop%2B:%2Ble%2Bjour%2Bo%25C3%25B9%2Bla%2Bfi%25C3%25A8vre%2Bde%2Bla%2Bpop%2Bcor%25C3%25A9enne%2Ba%2Bgagn%25C3%25A9%2BParis%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D588%26prmd%3Divns
Many Korean people seem to believe K-pop and Korean dramas are very popular among the general public in Japan, but it is a completely false. True, so many Koreans dramas are broadcast on Japanese TV, and many K-pop singers are coming to Japan to appear on TV and have concerts in Japan, but many(not most) Japanese people are beginning to realize some invisible but fierce force behind this flood of Korean pop culture ― the Korean government(more specifically, “Presidential Council on National Branding” and the world’s laegest advertising agency, “Dentsu”.
In an effort to raise its international image as well as export its popular culture, the Korean government has set up the above council, and has cooperated with Dentsu(former president Mr Narita is a Korean descent). Dentsu is so powerful, influential , and pervasive that it can manipulate or even change the Japanese tastes for pop culture and entertainment in general. It is a piece of cake for Dentsu to make TV stations broadcast Korean dramas rather than Japanese ones, and make programs where K-pop singers, not Japanese ones, are featured.
Dentsu has the power and influence to make anything(whether K-pop or otherwise) look like booming. True, Korean singers and dramas are popular among among particular segments of the population (especially middle aged and older women), but many Japanese people have been perplexed as to why the Japanese media(especially TV) treat Korean pop culture as if it were booming in Japan, though in fact it is not the case. They are aware of the role played by Dentsu in this unnatural phenomenon.
Contrary to the impression Korean people might receive through their media, what the Japanese people call “Kanryu boom” is nothing more than a very limited pheneomenon, and only a limited segment of society is excited. In a sense, most Japanese are disinterested toward what the media call Kanryu boom”, or even skeptical about it.
Thanks for your comment Ken. It might be indeed true what you say – like I know that Koreans eat dogs but I don’t know anyone personally who does.. However, I was in Tokyo for a wedding of a friend in April and I saw a substantial amount of K-pop section featured in all the main stores and CDs featured for listening (2ne1 etc) e.g. from the large Tsutaya in Shinjuku(or was it Shibuya) to Akihabara stores, and also in the smaller machi stores. Maybe this is also just a sponsored-fake popularity, and the CD’s actually don’t sell.
BTW I had dinner with a Japanese friend who was gushing over the group AKB48 – Japan’s answer to awful groups like SNSD – how she was horrified and fascinated at the same time, and she is strangely into them. I looked them up here
I’m sorry I think SNSD are awful anyway but I was really disappointed with the Japanese effort.
Here is 2ne1 for 안구정화 (eyeball purification), 고막정화(eardrum purification) after that awfulness.
You must log in to post a comment.
{ 1 trackback }