There is a lot of (celebrity- and non-celebrity-) twittering about this in the Korean media at the moment. All are saying how mind-boggling and crazy this is. Often I do find that in the categories section Robert should add “Oh Those Crazy Koreans, Yupkijuk Koreans ” in between South Korean Politics and Stupid Foreigner Tricks. 
Every schoolchild in Korea knows about 논개, the famous kisaeng who lured an invading Japanese general and jumped to her death taking him with her in the late 16th century. It’s interesting to note how in the Korean wiki link there is a clear explanation of the historical record 어우야담(於于野談) and the reason for the initial lack of inclusion (due to her kisaeng position) in the formal records, yet in the Japanese wiki of the general Kenyamura, it merely states
There is a well-known legend in Korea that Keyamura Rokusuke was killed by a kisaeng named Non Gae, though no history records show such incident. This story became popular in 1960s in Korea.
Even if the actual name of the general was not included in the original Korean records, this so “typical” of how these things are.
Anyway, I digress.
So there have been these festivals commemorating Non-kae in the beautiful setting of Jinju castle, and to the dramatic backdrop of the 의암/촉석루 cliff/pagoda (in particular since 1868 – a ceremony called 의암별제 by the kisaengs for the soul of Nonkae which was stopped by the Japanese during the occupation, as well as other broader festivals , including a dramatic re-enactment in a Korean traditional play form in the evening .
What’s been in the news today is that they have been having these “Nongae experience” for children in which they jump, hugging a human doll onto a air-mattress from 1m high. Koreans (including my favourite 조국 Cho Kuk via twitter)
특히 파워 트위터러인 서울대 조국 교수는 “논개 재현극을 통해 여자어린이에게 무엇을 가르치려 한 것인가. 국가를 위해 목숨을 버리라고 어릴 때부터 가르치려는 것인가. 시민으로서 부모로서 도저히 동의하지 못하겠다
are consternating over this, wondering about the meaning behind such crazy set-ups, saying “Next comes the *terrorist experince?*” “Suicide experience for children?”
All I have been on when I was a child, is the 춘향 그네 long swing near 광한루 ..maybe I’ve missed out.
P.S. What it does call into question, however, is whether “Werther Effect” a phrase I’d only heard of in Korean 베르테르(Beruteru) 효과(hyokwa) that I had to actually look it up to find out it means copycat suicide in plain English, is something recent in the modern Korean era, or something more long-standing in its history. Martyr (especially for one’s own country)- for protesting one’s innocence, or absolving one’s guilt – has never actually been examined or taught in a critical light as far as I remember.
{ 71 comments… read them below or add one }
Kisaeng held the status of cheonmin, the lowest rank of society. They shared this status with other entertainers, as well as butchers and slaves.
Cheoto,
How about geisha and burakumin in the Great Empire 니뽕?
Funny, I was just reading about burakumin last night on Wiki, and wondering if anyone has written anything comparing the two sub-classes.
What I learned was that there was a similar, non-ethnically based outcaste sub-class in medieval Spain and France until the 19th and 20th centuries, the Cagot. I had never heard of them before. It is fascinating to think that there were these groups in various societies that were deemed unworthy of normal treatment, but not for any clearly discernible reason but for something lost in history.
Anyway, back to this story. I think this is sad in a way. Of course, celebrate history, but remember your neighbors.
In Holland (I love my Dutch heritage) they celebratethe end of the Siege of Leiden every October 3rd. It is usually celebrated by eating a not particularly yummy meal of carrots, onions and potatoes, boiled to within an inch of their nutritional value and mashed together, as well as herring and white bread.
It is not, so far as I know, celebrated by burning Spanish soldiers in effigy or some such. (If I am wrong, someone please let me know.)
You could say the Dutch have had the last laugh in history as they now invade the southern coast of Spain each summer and some even buy houses to live there.
And before someone says that the situations of Korea vis-a-vis Japan and the Netherlands vis-a-vis Spain and are not analogous, just remember this: the Dutch war for independence lasted 80 years, the Spanish unleashed the Inquisition on the Dutch provinces to root out the burgeoning Protestant Reformation, and the Spaniards never apologized nor compensated the Low Countries for the ruin they wreaked!
As far as I can see, the only difference is 300 years of time and the fact that only the latter was called “colonization.”
I wonder if, in 300 years time, the Koreans of their day will remember the great moments of their history without needing Japanese effigy generals.
Well, in Britain there is also the Guy Fawkes Night….I guess what’s more strange is the re-enactment of the “suicide bit” really..
darn, Sperwered the link again. I thought I had it down.
How about the story of the 3000 Paekche ladies who hurled themselves over a cliff to prevent falling prey to Kim Yu Shin’s soldiers and their Tang China (momentary) allies?
That is definitely the most warped thing I’ve seen today
Has anyone here been to 진주 and “The Rock of Righteousness” (“의암”)???? Not exactly the cliff one would have in mind for such a dramatic story . . . Did Kenyamura never learn to swim? I know he was originally a farmer by trade, but it was very common for samurai to learn how to swim in the Tokugawa era. Maybe not so in Momoyama times? Was he not wearing his helmet at he time and hit his head on a rock or something?
Were the bodies ever retrieved? Maybe they were in love and swam away together? This story has a lot of possible outcomes. Hmmmm . . .
Not bad, Yuna – only eight paragraphs before you even try to explain what your piece is about. Were you taught nothing about writing at school?
Well, I’m officially speechless now.
Isn’t that what the Dutch were feeding the Aussies in Afghanistan?
Btw… The Japanese wiki is wrong. The earliest known account of the Nongae story is a compilation of Korean tales “Ou yadam,” written in 1621 by Yu Mong-in.
Also, according to Steve Turnbull’s Samurai Invasions (page 160), the sacrifice of Nongae was illustrated in the Kazusai Takenouchi’s Ehon Taikoki, circa 1802.
Exit 86 wrote (# 9),
Yes, I have been to that rock, which is just a rock in the river, less than six feet above the surface of the water. What makes me suspicious of the story is that to get to the rock from the pavilion, you have to climb down a steep cliff of about 25 or 30 feet. If Nongae had intended to kill the Japanese general, why didn’t she lept from the cliff instead of the rock?
Isn’t it possible that Nongae and a drunk Japanese general simply lost their balance while in an embrace and fell off the rock into the river, causing a legend to be be born?
Correction: Why didn’t she leap from the cliff instead of the rock?
Hamel, I find it curious that the Dutch national anthem recites loyalty to the King of Spain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Het_Wilhelmus
Sounds like you saw Monty Python’s Life of Brian…
it is the education that kill the Japanese..
it was 10th. what a tradition
So you think Japanese education kills Japanese?
I guess you’re trying to say that 10th graders suffer the most in Japan.
It must a real Japanese tradition.
Really like the town of Jinju. And gotta give the people there credit — they’re a determined lot, apparently:
http://www.gnnews.co.kr/?section=KNEA&flag=detail&code=272531
OhMyNews has some good photos, too (from the 경남도민일보):
http://www.ohmynews.com/NWS_Web/view/at_pg.aspx?CNTN_CD=A0001574062&CMPT_CD=A0271
Wonder what’s next — maybe holding a 체험 program for kiddies to honor the 육탄10용사?
http://mpva.tistory.com/1142
The legend was most probably fabricated to hide a shameful and embarrassing reality, which is that the Korean troops, who outnumbered the battle fatigued Japanese invaders by as much as 4 to 1 (according to what I’ve heard), fled the region, leaving the monks and servants to protect the fortress. Apparently, it was common practice back then to grease a few palms and hire the village idiot to serve in-lieu of your son in the military.
“Has anyone here been to 진주 and “The Rock of Righteousness” ”
Yup. I guess you aren’t supposed to visit the place for yourself, but instead let your imagination run wild. I had imagined a high cliff above rapids…It’s like just 2 or 3 meters above a very calm waters. Unless the guy hit the bottom with his head when he landed into the shallow waters, I really can’t see how he could have drowned.
Were you taught nothing about manners, anywhere?
So do I. Beautiful walk around the edge of the fortress. And the lantern festival is amazing.
Yes, I actually think that it’s highly probable that 논개 was a akita-jindo cross breed dog, who happened to look like a kisaeng in the fog who could only speak proto-type Korean who didn’t understand the Japanese general who said, “Bring me the map, bring me the map, there’s a good boy” instead, just jumped in joy and pushed him down, and he cracked his head on the rock.
Yes, it’s a curious thing to the uninitiated. To copy-paste the last paragraph of the Wiki article to which you linked:
“The last two lines of the first stanza indicate that the leader of the Dutch civil war against Spanish Empire of which they were part, had no specific quarrel with Philip II of Spain, but rather with his emissaries in the Low Countries, like Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba. This may have been because at the time (late 16th century) it was uncommon to publicly doubt the Divine Right of Kings. It strikes the modern Dutch ear as an obsolete formula. For some of the resistance fighters of the day, the stanza may have resonated with irony or knowing sarcasm.”
YBT-199 wrote (#10):
Even though Yuna’s English is very good, her writing does seem to have that “winding-road” Korean style about it, which usually means you do not know where the writer is going until you get to the end of the road.
Though it seems to be somewhat tedious for the Western reader, Koreans seem to like that meandering course.
Clearly, this little show in the town of Jinju is meant to attract tourists from other parts of Korea, not any tourists from Japan. However, there are parts of Korea that do hold events that attract tourists from Japan and elsewhere. I would like to see some future posts about those. One I think that’s particularly interesting is the Baekje festival, that’s held by the city of Bueyo in South Chungcheong-do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-LPuByCMco
Has anyone been to Bueyo lately? Has that huge five story Buddhist temple been completed and open to the public yet?
I don’t pretend to be an expert in this, but would it be possible that the typical Western essay format may not be as popular in East Asia, not just limiting South Korea? I find that many Chinese and Japanese have difficulty getting to the point at times too.
Hummm….
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/05/117_87951.html
Well, at least I know that the KT reads TMH!
Wangkon wrote (#28):
The typical Western essay format may not be all that popular in East Asia. I have written a couple of times about my former Korean bother-in-law’s not liking the writing style of the Korean version of Newsweek because it was too straightforward and too easy to understand.
gbevers,
I think it may have to do with Neo-Confucianism. If you read any Neo-Confucian texts, you’ll see that they are written in the same style with the point buried somewhere in the middle or near the end of the work of prose. In East Asian writing, sometimes the event or journey is more important than the defined point itself.
In the West, we would call that the “thesis sentence” and it’s hammered into us from high school onward. One cannot pass AP tests and compose most college-level essays without it.
Also in the West we have Greek and Roman styles of prose. Our understanding of prose structure comes from the Renaissance and they got it from the Roman philosopher Cicero. If you look at prose from medieval Europe before the Renaissance you may see a style of prose that may remind you of Korea (or East Asia).
I mean, “In the West, we would usually use a “thesis sentence” and…”
@WangKon936 and Gerry:
First off, I do not consider myself a fan of Yuna’s writing. That said, some of the arguments the both of you are attempting to make are just flat out idiotic. You read her pidgen English posts and somehow come to such magical conclusions as “The Western essay format must not be liked by East Asians” ; “Koreans like meandering, hard to follow, slow to the point writing.”
Errr…uhm…NO.
The reason for the low quality of Yuna’s post boils down to this: she tries too hard to be funny/sarcastic/irreverent/witty. Mix in the fact that she’s not a native speaker and you get the results that you see today. It would be the same result if me, WangKon936 or Gerry were trying to be funny/sarcastic/irreverent/witty when writing in Korean (a language that I’m comfortable in saying the three of us are not native in).
Finally, I seriously wonder how much Korean language essays or books the both of you read. Admittedly, I’ve read my share of meandering, hard to understand, and not-to-the-point essays/books. But then again, I’ve read a great deal of essays/books that are very much to the point and clear to understand. Just off the top of my head, historical works I’ve read by say 박태균 (원형과 변용; 우방과 제국, 한미관계의 두 신화), 김영미 (그들의 새마을운동; 동원과 저항), or 한홍구 (His 대한민국사 series) are pretty easy to read and understand. And these are professional academics, mind you!
Can either one of you show me the offending pieces of writing that do this or if this is even a major, long standing trend? Because frankly, the both of you are taking your dislike of one person’s writing and embarrassing yourselves in attempting to argue that there’s something intrinsically wrong with how Koreans, let alone East Asians, read and write.
“she tries too hard to be funny/sarcastic/irreverent/witty.”
That spells “bingo” for me. Not sure about non-native as I don’t see those kinds of problems.
I don’t know about essayists, but when I was a daily reader of vernacular newspapers in Japan and South Korea, I more often than not felt that the style of news articles “buried the lead”. The gist of the story did come across in the headline or subheadline, but then I’d have to read more than halfway through for the real meat.
the point of writing is to be understood. yuna is doing just fine. i hope she continues here and ignores the grammar police.
Now, admittedly what I’m about to show below is just one article. But let me ask, do you feel like you have to keep reading on down to get a bit at the “real meat?”
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/05/31/2011053100058.html
So what’s above is the title of the article and the first paragraph. And it seems to fill the so-called five W’s: Who (300 SNU students); What (Occupying the Chancellor’s office); Where (SNU/Chancellor’s office); When (May 30th; night time); Why (oppose SNU becoming a corporate body).
Charles Tilly wrote (#33):
First of all, I have not noticed Yuna using “pidgin English.” Second, my conclusions are not based on what Yuna wrote; they are based on what I have been told and on the numerous essays and editorials I have read in Korean newspapers and other places over the past three decades.
I do not give a flip about the “three” Korean books you have read, all of which were written in the past few years. The writing style of Koreans has improved a great deal in the past decade, in that it has become more Westernized. However, if you want a feel for the more traditional Korean essay style, go back and read some old newspaper editorials and essays from the 70′s, 80′s, or even 90′s. I would recommend Lee Gyu-tae (이규태) of the Chosun Ilbo, not because he epitomized the Korean style, but because his topics were interesting and he was quite popular with Koreans.
By the way, I am not talking about news articles. I am talking about essays and editorials.
Anyway, I will not debate this topic with you further. You have your opinion and I have mine.
@Gerry:
Dumbshit #1:
So, what? Yuna’s writing is being used as an example? How’s it any better to use one example in attempting to prove a point that was dubious to begin with?
Dumbshit #2:
First, it’s more like five Korean language books. Learned to fucking count, dipsh*t. Second, you wouldn’t give a flip about the books because they’re way above anything you could handle intellectually. Map reading they’re are not. Third, if what you say is true that Korean writing has improved “in that it has become more Westernized” (something highly debatable), then tell me, why do you still bitch and moan about how Korean writing isn’t up to snuff? Also, this wasn’t the tune you were singing a month or so back when you were bitching and moaning about the sentences in the Pressian article I quoted and linked.
Dumbshit #3:
Gee, I thought you were talking about Korean writing. Stop trying to weasel out of your own trap by splitting hairs.
Semi-dumbshit:
Yeah, you probably shouldn’t. Not if you’re going to keep changing your tune in order to salvage an argument that was never worth uttering to begin with.
Oh, let’s also not forget this other piece of Gerry Bever’s dumbsh*t:
I’m sorry, that first and second sentence outright contradict each other. I mean, let me get this straight: to get a feel for more traditional ways of Korean essay writing, I should go and read editorials and essays from the 1970′s, 80′s, and 90′s. And towards that, Gerry recommends that I read 이규태 of the Chosun Ilbo. But yet, he tells me that Mr. Lee is to be read “not because he epitomized the Korean style, but because his topics were interesting and he was quite popular with Koreans.
Well…f*ck that. If I’m suppose to read Mr. Lee not because he “epitomized the Korean style” but cause he was an interesting cat, then I think I’m going to have to pass. One, there are other interesting Korean writers out there that I’d rather spend my time reading. Two, there are porn studs drilling porn starlets that I’d rather be watching.
I realized a long time ago that the Atlantic ocean is a huge chasm, that the Beatles was the only true success.
Mine is a compounded case of Korean female from liberal parents + (predominantly) European upbringing + scoring low for in-your-face Big Bang Theory/Saved By the Bell humour + scoring high for ambivalent self-deprecating 애매모호한 humour + minus points for things like political correctness..
So I guess it’s like marmite (or like diet cherry coke).. You love it or you hate it.
Actually, make that British
” scoring high for ambivalent self-deprecating 애매모호한 humour”
Who’s doing the scoring here?
One would hope not you..
#36
OK. Let me address this point seriously. Leaving aside my personality of a dreamy person who lives by the sense of smell for the moment, I admit fully that my posts are like those meandering brooks in an opening scene of a Disney film.
My initial 취지 was that I wanted to concentrate on the subjects that most Koreans are interested in, to give the non-Koreans a taste of what is topical in Korea amongst the Koreans (which might not always have an English article to link to), but as you see, in my eagerness to explain the background, and the whole story, I do a long intro into the incident being discussed at hand. I guess if you want a ‘Get to the point woman!’ Bloomberg ticker style then please, scroll over to the next post, dozo.
I don’t think it’s a straightforward case of “either or” between the language and culture. So Charles Tilly and GBevers are both wrong and right at the same time.
Charles Tilly wrote (# 38):
Excuse me. “Five” Korean language books. I stand corrected. haha
Please stop with your incessant insistence that the US is the ‘west’.
I am from the west and have no idea of what you just said. I went to university, have never heard of a ‘thesis sentence’ let alone had it drummed into me since highshcool. have no idea what an AP test, and college is a junior version for people who don’t get to go to uni.
The ‘west’ is bigger than your little bit of the US, kindly don’t drag us I to your little homilies.
Charles Tilly is one of the most lucid people here, no question (despite of some harsh words).
Arghaeri:
“Please stop with your incessant insistence that the US is the ‘west’”
“The ‘west’ is bigger than your little bit of the US, kindly don’t drag us I to your little homilies.”
That. Just perfect.
Arghaeri,
Gee… I thought Cicero was part of Western civilization. Excuuuuse me!
What is called the thesis or topic sentence/statement in the U.S. English university system is called the thesis or focus statement in the Canadian university system. I would imagine that the British, Australian, South African and New Zealand education systems have something similar.
Perfect avoidance tactic, I said nothing whatsoever about Cicero, only your conflating of your experience in a tiny bit of the US as being representative of the experience of everyone in the ‘west’.
Arghaeri said (#46):
I retract my earlier statement about yuna’s prose having improved during my absence.
He is very good at that!
@50 sperwered
don’t dare ask, that’s his well kept and mysterious secret! (Perhaps he’s just ashamed to admit he’s Welsh?)
Regarding the meandering prose that doesn’t get to the point until the end, I’ve read countless editorials like this in the bilingual columns at the Joongang Ilbo, where the author sometimes doesn’t even come anywhere near the his point until the final few sentences. I’m not saying that this is representative of the state of Korean writing, but I’ve seen it enough to know what bevers and WK might be referring to.
I think I read something like this written on a Morning Glory pencil case. Or was it one of those nonsensical Engrish T-shirt slogans. I forget which.
the confusions….
Though you have seemed reluctant to disclose what country you’re from, let’s assume somewhere in the UK (is that a good assumption?):
http://dok.do/Jl7YuU
Doesn’t seem to be that much of a foreign concept to “unis” in the UK.
One more assumption – I assume Wangkon meant thesis statement (not sentence), or more generally the concept of writing to support a thesis. Surely, Arghaeri, you aren’t just getting stuck on semantics and using that as an opportunity to express your Great Exceptionalism. That would be seem desperate and pretty pathetic, wouldn’t it.
…re being pathetic about the semantics thing, maybe you just might be.
@54 haha, good one.
Is Charles Tilly a girl or a guy? I believe I’ve seen CT referred to as a she more than once before; and then in one of the comments above CT writes something about watching “porn studs.” Makes me wonder. I’m curious, that’s all.
Anyway, yuna is one of my fave posters here.
Read plenty of these in the KT and KH as well over the years. And they almost always start with some ridiculous historical anecdote, quote, or reference that has zero to do with the rest of the column.
re: yuna’s writing
Reminds me of Shelton. Trying way too hard and getting half the result. If no one gets your “humor” but you, it’s probably best to leave it on the cutting room floor and focus on concision.
Never thought this day would come. I must inform my parents who always said that I need to try harder.
All in all, points are taken with grace. Last night when I wrote the reply comments I was under the influence of a couple of cocktails, and my prose tends to become a bit flowery when I have had a few.
I like your stuff, Yuna. Keep up the good posting.
Aw shucks. Why is my tail suddenly wagging like a dog who pleased her owner?
Thanks for the anglo-eu diplo guide tuna laughed my sock off.
He can ask, and yes I would be ashamed to admit that. Apologies to my welsh friends. Of course I’m not sure what weight where I’m from has considering I said I’ve never heard that I.e. where I’m from, where I’ve been to school, where I graduated uni, where l dud postgrad, where I’ve lived, where I’ve lived, where I qualified, where I lived…..
If you’re gonna link to make some kind of weird argument that I’ve heard of something that I haven’t then at least have the courtesy to link to a page which isn’t full of .edu links, if they were UK they would be .ac.uk
Thanks for proving my point, the example was given because outside the US in some parts of the west it is not semantics, colleges are very much a junior establishment to unis with very limited education beyond two year ‘associate’ degrees.
Thats a hell of a expansion just to justify your pathetic leaping into a quite simple objection to Wangkon talking as though he represents the whole of the west. I’m quite sure Wangkon as intelligent as he obviously is new what he meant.
That would be seem desperate and pretty pathetic, wouldn’t it.
Argharei. You don’t even have to defend that ridiculous notion anymore. I’d never heard of that expression “thesis sentence”- neither had my friends though I can jolly well guess what it means.
At the same time I know that posts on MH are not scientific papers for publication which require abstracts. Re-reading this particular post again, what I wanted to emphasize was the fact that the Koreans themselves are finding the thing strange/objectionable (it’d been going on for six years anyway, it only now became an issue).
As you can see happening on the other thread, where somebody is having to eat his underpants (though he probably would ask me to speak English for this) DIRECT DELIVERY is everything for the Americans – that’s why they need the stupid para-bing that comes after each inane punch line Letterman delivers.
Of course, there is an exception to this rule in the name of J.Hodges.
Your spell checker has developed a fine sense of humour.
So in summary: Your particular brand of humor is the height of sophistication and subtlety, in fact far too complex for dumb Americans to understand, because they need the low-brow, moronic rimshot (or apparently in britkonglish “para-bing”) in order to know when to guffaw.
Perhaps you can break down the many levels of your humor step-by-step for us dullards, and clear up any misunderstanding the stupid yanks here may have, because we’re all dying to be let in on the profound intricacies of your brilliant comedic stylings. That is, if we’re not too fucking simple to comprehend it without accompanying audible cues.
Should we also assume from your well-chronicled frustration that your fellow Brits in fact consider you a comedy savant and shower you with praise, and that they are equally puzzled as to why those on the other side of the pond don’t recognize your magnificence?
Do consider that all this is coming from a dense yank — and one very unlikely to penetrate the thick walls of your cerebral creations — so it may be better to just write it off as Letterman-esque inanity and continue enlightening the world with your mesmerizing wit, while the rest of us toil away at trying to unlock your rubik’s cube of comedy.
No need to apologize, but you could turn down the volume of the inanity.
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