Full-scale war, sea of fire, targeted strikes, oh my!
It wouldn’t be Key Resolve/Foal Eagle time without some North Korean bluster, and to the delight of North Korean rhetoric fans, Pyongyang has stepped up its game, threatening to respond to the exercises with “full-scale war” and by turning Seoul into a “sea of fire.”
They’re also threatening to fire on sites in Gyeonggi-do where balloons carrying propaganda leaflets into the North were being launched, citing Imjingak by name. The South Korean military, for its part, doesn’t think an attack on Imjingak is likely, but it wouldn’t surprise them if the North Koreans tried their luck taking a shot at a South Korean loudspeaker:
But the military believes that the chances are slim of direct, targeted firing attacks at areas where leaflet-carrying balloons are released, despite a threat from North Korea.
“The North won’t be able to attack Imjingak Pavilion” south of the demilitarized zone “because it would cause greater repercussions than its artillery attack on Yeonpyeong Island and invite concentrated artillery fire from the South,” a military source said. But the military thinks the North could fire at South Korean loudspeakers along the DMZ. It has apparently been training to do so since June last year, even though the South has not made good a promise to resume propaganda broadcasts through them.
My own non-professional opinion is that while the likelihood of a North Korean provocation is low, it wouldn’t be completely out of character for North Korea to do something stupid because a) they’ve rarely gone wrong raising tensions, and b) they probably think they can.
South Korean nukes? Oh yeah!
As long-time readers of this blog know, I’m rather partial to the idea of South Korea developing its own nuclear deterrent — nothing would bring a bigger smile to my face than to watch China’s consternation as it reaps what it has sown. This is why I find recent talk of the “nuclear question” in South Korea somewhat heartening, even if the focus of the discussion has been the reintroduction of US tactical nukes to South Korea. The JoongAng Ilbo is wussying out on the issue — for Seoul to develop its own nukes would be bad, they tell us, but it must ask Uncle Sam to redeploy tactical nukes to the South — but lawmakers like Chough Soon-hyung and Song Young-sun are calling for South Korea to build its own nukes.
Quick note about Chough: in case you were wondering, Chough — at one time chairman of the Democratic Party — is now with the right-wing Liberty Forward Party. I’ve also just learned he’s a Georgetown grad. So thumbs up from me.
Korean Wave manufactured?
Japanese journalist Kimura Taro went on Fuji TV’s “Mr. Sunday” program and claimed that the Korean government was manufacturing the Korean Wave in Japan. Or so reports the JoongAng Ilbo. He claimed South Korea’s National Branding Committee was paying advertising companies to drive up the views count for K-pop videos on Youtube.
He said for Korea to spread its culture at the national level was itself not a mistake, to make it look like the culture was popular by replaying the Youtube videos a lot was something akin to a scam. He also likened the Korean government’s alleged manufacturing of the K-pop craze in Japan to how fashion companies pursue marketing strategies that manufacture fads.
Korea’s National Branding Committee denies the allegation, with one official saying it was impossible for the state to control pop culture.
{ 134 comments… read them below or add one }
No Korean nukes!
Not often you see “Cho” spelled “Chough”, but it does happen.
The “sea of fire” threat was first deployed during the 1994 Nuclear Crisis and since then it’s been dusted off and reused with such regularity that it’s lost its effect. It’s gotten to the point where I’d be worried if they didn’t use it.
The threat to attack the South over balloon launches has been resurfacing every few months since the summer of 2008. So far, the North hasn’t made good on its promise. But what’s worrying is the specificity of this particular threat. In the past they merely threatened a “physical response.” This time, they’ve promised to “shoot directly” at Imjingak Park (ironically a shrine to the peaceful reunification of the two Koreas). If past action is any guide, then the North won’t make good on its threat; nevertheless, as Robert said, it wouldn’t be completely out of character to do something crazy, especially given the deteriorating domestic situation.
Oh, and for the record, I disagree strongly with those who say a popular uprising in North Korea is “impossible.” I don’t know if it’s likely, I wouldn’t know how to calculate the odds of it occurring, and I certainly wouldn’t bet money on it, but I will point out that every revolution and every uprising looks impossible in foresight and inevitable in hindsight. The one constant of revolution is that it is impossible to predict.
When one looks at the sales one can’t help but wonder whether the claims of “Korean Wave” are indeed inflated.
I’m reminded of the payola scandal of yesteryear.
Milton, I wonder if it wouldn’t be possible for a few regions of NK to go into revolt, as in Libya. Then it could get very ugly and confusing, with massive retribution from Pyongyang, China ready with lots of cards to play, and the US and SK not really knowing how to respond.
Though Mr. Taro’s assertion is correct, a proper response would be, “so what?”
Korean media types are merely following well known Japanese marketing strategy, to the extreme. They are selling a “product” which has been, for all intents and purposes, modeled on the Japanese market. The main distinction being that prior to import, their “product” sang and communicated in Japanese. Now, however, the songs are all preformed in Japanese, and the performers are all communicating in Japanese. (This brings up another topic. as the act are basically modeled after the Japanese “idol” market, and as the acts sing and communicate in Japanese, is this really the type of cultural tidal wave that some are making it appear to be.)
Then, for the most part, the Japanese media companies are entering into low risk contracts with Japanese media companies. in which the Japanese companies are spending an outrageous amount of money to market these acts, because, though they put almost no money into creation of said acts, they bear to reap as much as 70% of all profits generated in the Japanese market. Its hard to describe the type of over the top marketing taking place in the Japanese market right now.
First off, many of the K-pop marketers have most certainly taken a page from the “Jonny’s Entertainment” guys, who brought the “world” (read:Japan) such acts as SMAP, and Arashi. It came out a while ago that they were in the illicit practice of buying a bus-load of their own albums via pre-order to get sales figures up for the Oricon chart rankings. Once rankings went up, they would cancel the orders. The future charts would not effect the cancellations. Again, these types of actions by K-pop marketers would merely be mimicking of J-pop in Japan. IMHO, a smart move to make. When in Rome, and all…
Also, when we hear about “sold out” concerts for new acts just breaking into Japan, please note that many of those tickets are given out for free, or are tied in with other promotions. Similarly, many of the adoring fans waiting to greet them, are often “asked” to be there on behalf of the various Japanese PR companies who are getting paid a hefty yen to give the various artist the appearance of popularity. In a way, this “K-pop boom” is actually a HUGE boom for the Japanese media biz. They are either getting flooded by money from Korea to advertise and promote, or they are being given very sweet contracts to push an act that has already made “bank” in Korea, who meets their own cultural definition of a successful group, and who sings in Japanese.
Yes, the marketing is over the top, but so is Japanese marketing in general, and yes, figures are exaggerated. The “pre-sales” scam described above, may make it look like an act is big because they have reached number one on the Oricon Daily chart, but, that really means nothing, as it is a reflection of daily CD sales… CD sales… yes, Japan is one of the few countries in the world that still buys CDs. but even taking the medium of sales into account, when we look at the annual or monthly sales tally, we get a better view of the impact of said “cultural invasion.”
In general, though, I think few Japanese are questioning the “manufacturing” of the K-pop wave, much in the same way that few question the popularity of J-pop. Japan is a very open society, and they are willing to accept culture from all over the world. I hope that the continue flow of popular culture between Japan and Korea acts as a continued catalyst in strengthening the relations between these two very dynamic societies.
Yu Bum Suk,
It’s funny because a while back a friend asked me what would it be like if there were a revolution in North Korea, and I basically described what is happening in Libya now (I believe I posted something to that effect on here a few months ago as well).
My fantasy revolution begins in a marketplace or possibly near a train station in a medium-sized city near the border, say in Chongjin. It begins when a police officer harasses and then beats up someone innocent and helpless—maybe a frail grandmother. Bystanders stand by and watch, but then one person decides he’s had enough and steps in. Quickly others join in. The brawl quickly escalates as more and more people, seeing safety in numbers and feeling a chance to finally express their pent-up anger join in as well and a riot ensues. The people—lacking food, jobs, heat, learning more and more about the outside world, and utterly feeling hopeless—have had enough and they’ve been feeling that way for quite some time but have never had the feeling that they could express their grievances.
Police (obviously lacking the trappings of a more “humane” police force like tazers, batons, and rubber bullets) use live ammunition against the protestors, but protestors refuse to back down and soon enough the police lose their stomach for killing their neighbors and relatives so they join the revolt. The government loses control of the streets and the people begin torching government buildings and police stations.
When word of the revolt reaches Pyongyang, KJI dispatches the military to quell the uprising, but the soldiers, lacking food and proper equipment, give up pretty quickly and join the revolt as well. Meanwhile, news of the uprising is spread not by Facebook or cell phones, but by word of mouth: traders and visitors in town bring news of the revolt to their villages and the outlying cities and eventually down the coast through Hamhung, Wonsan, Kaesong, and after a few days the revolt has reached the suburbs of Pyongyang where KJI remains holed up with his most loyal guards and military units. After a bloody battle in which the Kim Il Sung Statue on Mansudae Hill is toppled, the rebels stick a meat hook in KJI’s skull and drag his body around the streets of Pyongyang.
Of course, things wouldn’t go exactly like this because I would guess that the South Korean government—if they knew a revolt was brewing and that revolt was a credible threat to the regime—would figure out a way to get involved. There’s also the possibility such a scenario could devolve into a proxy war between South Korea and China, and there’s the possibility the remnants of the KJI regime could try to mount a last-ditch war on the South or that China could militarily intervene to prop up KJI. Also it’s possible a revolt may not even get off the ground because North Koreans genuinely do support their regime, whatever hardships it puts them through.
But yeah, I’d say Libya provides a better model of what a North Korean uprising might look like. Probably more so than even Romania.
“but the soldiers, lacking food and proper equipment, give up pretty quickly and join the revolt as well.”
Unfortunately this is where I think this lovely fantasy would fall apart, as apparently it has indeed based on a few defectors’ reports. The soldiers get fed first (well, second after the Pyongyang elite). They get the warmer clothing. They get what little fuel there is. Many of them want to be in the army for this reason. I doubt there’s anywhere in the country where KJI couldn’t send a well-armed brigide within a day.
Rather I think it would require a general with very loyal troops to mount any kind of regional revolt. Then if others followed his example the house of cards might crumble very quickly when the statues start toppling and outside information comes pouring in.
Miltons story sounded good anyway.
Now if only we could make it into a DVD etc and send it to the North Koreans amongst the other cd/DVD’s they are apparently getting smuggled in from China.
It might teach them how to overthrow their government, instead of just sending them “South Koreans soapie/drama” cd/DVD’s.
Milton: you don’t think that a dying KJI clan, before they go, would rain everything they have on South Korea, just for the heck of it ?
The only way i can see this ending up without an apocalypse is if there’s a coup from within, maybe some army top brass deposing the Kims with a quick round of bullets in their heads and then steering the country toward some kind of transition
A shout-out to Milton:
Yes, it’s that time of year for the NK show of bluster, and the MH could indeed use your good commentary.
Something doesn’t look right here. Oh, I don’t know.
Robert, if North Korea ever directly with intent caused damage to the Imjingak Pavilion, then not even the Ministry of truth hotel in Pyongyang would be left standing, let alone any relic of Kim Il Sung. North Korea is irrational, not stupid. Let their rations run out.
Thank you for your observations, Japonymous. I found them interesting.
The videos that make top 100 most viewed on Youtube tend to be the most commented too; so either these ad companies have hundreds of unique user accounts and are brilliant or Taro doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Other things to consider:
-Not all Kpop videos make youtube’s front page.
-Kpop videos that are not a part of a music company’s main channel and have been uploaded by random fans make the front page.
-Following the above, random performance videos make it to front page. But again these videos are not uploaded by the artists, their companies, or broadcasting cohorts, are full of comments by English speakers/fans, and not every video by every Kpop group – not even the major ones like Boa and Se7en- make it to top100.
-Album sales do testify to Kpop’s popularity in Japan. Kara did make platinum and SNSD made gold status.
Japanese speakers (Taro) who don’t speak English are likely to be unaware of the large undercurrent of non-Korean, English-speaking netizens (from various parts of Asia, America and elsewhere) who are fans of Kpop, the websites they frequent, and what those websites in turn do to promote kpop through youtube.
I’d put money on a corps-level coup, such as happened in the 90s rather than any popular uprising. Or, as in Egypt, a rearranging of the chairs, as different factions gain power over the current leaders. The best we could hope for now is a North Korean Nasser.
The Youtube argument is a red herring, as the high viewership probably has more to do with the “Rain- Time Person of the Year Phenomena” more than anything else. For weeks after the debut of any given single by either KARA or Girls Generation, despite their actual sales, they were ranked tops in internet users who would access their promotional videos.
Additionally, when commenting on album sales, it is VERY imprtant to note, that Korean record companies often import their own CDs from Korea, charging considerably less than Japanese manufactured J-Pop cd’s and often including “goodies” such as DVDs (which, quite frankly, should have the CD sake listed as a DVD sale), fan posters, or “free” concert tickets.
Stop by any Tsutaya next time you are in Tokyo. You will notice one K-pop section. taking up about 1/30th of the store, and you will notice very elaborate CD packaging for very low prices.
One more thing… that Kara song where the go “nananananan 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 6″ (mister?) was HUGE last year. HUGE. I wouldn’t be surprised if half of every year end party in Japan didn’t have a groups of scantly clad secretaries preform that number in front of all at attendance at same party. For this reason, I am super grateful to Kara.
But, again, I stress, the acts are in Japanese, and, well, very Japanese is style and content (dances which are meant to be copied by the general public, easy beats and lyrics to digest), and so, should not be viewed quite as if a “foreign” band were coming in from no where.
Also, lets look at the singles chart from Oricon for 2010:
http://www.oricon.co.jp/rank/js/y/
Note that 東方神起 breaks in at #16, and that is with a free DVD included (again, why is this in the CD charts?)
They then break in again at #26… again with a free DVD.
Then Xia Junsu at 28, with… you guessed it… a free DVD.
Again, at this stage, only one Japanese single in the rankings comes with a free DVD, and quite frankly, we are talking SINGLES here.
Then, comes Gee at 49 and Genie by Girls Generation at Number 58, both, hits taken by any quantitative or qualitative measure, but both, again, just two singles.
Kara comes in at 67 with Mister (and guess what! Free DVD!!)
Now, lets turn to albums. 東方神起 comes in with a respectable #7, but this time, not only do we get a DVD, but its a double “best of” album.
ＪＵＮＳＵ／ＪＥＪＵＮＧ／ＹＵＣＨＵＮ come in at 42, with… guess? A free DVD!
Kara at 45 with a FREE DVD!! Their best of album comes out at 70… no DVD included.
Oh, and here’s the album ranking link:
http://www.oricon.co.jp/rank/ja/y/
and, please further note that 東方神起 is TVXQ, and Xia Junsu is a former member, and ＪＵＮＳＵ／ＪＥＪＵＮＧ／ＹＵＣＨＵＮ, are JYJ, formerly part of TVXQ.
“The Youtube argument is a red herring, as the high viewership probably has more to do with the “Rain- Time Person of the Year Phenomena””
You’re only speculating about the nature of its viewership, and speaking from without the perspective of the people who actually follow the music and its trends.
And it’s not a red-herring if that’s the core thrust of what Taro is charging.
The rest of what you write amounts to splitting hairs.
I’m glad to see that TVXQ is ranked 7. That’s a relatively recent release.
@milton and Yu Bum Suk
The DPRK is not Libya. ^^; Key conditions that allowed Libya to fall suddenly apart do not exist in the DPRK. For instance, the Libyan civil conflict began when Libyan police arrested Libyan human rights activist, Fathi Terbil. In reponse, several hundred supporters organized a public demonstration. As far as I can tell, it is impossible for this kind of thing to happen in the DPRK.
Plus, Libya does not have a China ensuring the dictator’s stay in power. Instead, Muammar spent most of his life alienating everyone, except maybe Hugo Chavez. Of course, withou China, there would be no DPRK: it would have been crushed long ago. In contrast, Obama is openly looking for a way to topple Muammar and no one is going to come to Muammar’s defense.
We already saw market protests in the DPRK a while back. But there does not seem to be any kind of way for the northerners to organize, which is very different from what is happening in the middle east right now. April 6 organized the protests in Egypt, using Tunisia as the catalyst. Citizens using Facebook and Twitter marked the date of the protest. They got it started. They didn’t know how many people would show up. They were probably as surprised as the police were at the size of the group.
As far as we can tell, it is impossible for disgruntled northerners to organize for protests like April 6 and the Muslim Brotherhood can. Even Libyans, whose civil society had been systematically damaged by Muammar actually has organizations of civilians who can instigate a protest movement and help provide some stability in various regions where government forces have fled.
The internet–particularly Youtube, Facebook and Twitter–along with cell phones, and satellite tv–particularly Al Jazeera–are giving oppressed peoples the tools to organize, while also giving them a sense of sharing the danger that creates a feeling of confidence about facing down government forces armed with guns. Even the Chinese communists are alarmed at what is happening because the Chinese public, too, is aware of what is happening. By contrast, I don’t have any idea what most North Koreans know about what is happening in the middle east. And really, if you believe what BMyers has to say, they may not be able to empathize with what is going on, unlike Chinese or Burmese pro-reformers.
Furthermore, the DPRK cannot even be compared with the other Soviet Block members that have long fallen or have transformed. Eastern Europe collapsed because their Sovet backers could not afford the arms race and were too slow to realize the coming of the era of globalzation. The DPRK lost their Soviet funds. That is why their situation is dire. But the Chinese are funding them just enough to survive. And as far as we can tell, the Chinese communists are willing to afford it. And as long as they are willing to systematically keep a large part of their society in the gutter, they can easily afford it.
“I’d put money on a corps-level coup, such as happened in the 90s rather than any popular uprising. Or, as in Egypt, a rearranging of the chairs, as different factions gain power over the current leaders. The best we could hope for now is a North Korean Nasser.”
–Left Flnak
I think you are thinking of Park Chung Hee? ^^;
I would be surprised at a military coup, too. As far as we can tell, the military are die hard supporters. Neither in Egypt nor in Libya was a military coup possible. News reports on the policies Muammar implimented to neuter his own army seem convincingly effective. For instance, he might put loyal commanders in charge of less loyal troops and switch command posts around so that a feeling of comraderie would not develop between officers and men. We saw a consequnece of this in the eastern border last week when commanders ordered their troops to fire on protesters but tribal leaders told the men to stand down. The men refused to kill civilians, so the commanders fled their posts.
In Egypt, what we saw was a completely unique social dynamic that created some sort of unique process in which a democracy is supposed to result.
Yeah… its a red herring from Taro. Remember, what I mentioned initially… so what? The Korean artists and their management (with teh exception of the free concerts and “free-DVD included!!” CDs are not doing muchg different from others.
And, you are right, I have no factual evidence to prove a phenomena that has been proven time and time again to be true… or, is RAIN really the most significant person in the world? Korean internet users are famous for skewing any type of internet measurement. Can I prove that that is why the Promotional Video rankings were always skewed in a way that would not jive with the sales… nope… I can’t. (Can I prove that major media outlets have stopped taking any type of internet counter seriously partly as a result of these types of Korean internet “multiple voting” situations… yes)I shall now start believing that I am living a lie, in which RAIN rules supreme… the fact that I am living and working in Japan, and that I watch the Japanese news (not the real news, the popular news that just shoves pop culture down my throat by the millisecond) and that I speak the language , clearly shows that I have no idea about “the perspective of the people who actually follow the music and its trends.” ‘Cuz, you know… I never ask questions. Just go to work. Don’t even look at my Japanese co-workers. Then go home, being careful not to mistakenly glance at a native.
And, yes TVXQ at 7 is impressive… even with the free DVD. But, my main point here, is that TVXQ was built on the Johnny’s model, and sings in Japanese. Despite this, they were still a cultural door opener, and I give them, and their management company props. Who knows, the next step may be a top-10 song in Korean, that stays in its top ten position for over a month.
And, thanks for indicating that I was splitting hairs. I though that the “buy a CD get a DVD free! – oh, and did we mention that the combo is cheaper than most regular J-pop CDs?” point was one that most were probably not familiar with….
cont….
In the DPRK, the military seem most likely to be happy with the status quo. They seem to like this juche and military first policies.
So, if the public will not revolt because they can’t organize and because they are generally ignorant about the world, the military like their situation, the Chinese continues to pay maintenance fees, and the US and ROK do not want regime change, then I think we will see the DPRK last quite a while.
The only thing I see that would almost guarantee a collapse of the DPRK would be a democratic revolution in China happening first.
@Japonymous
I think I have seen various reports done about commercial strategies in deflationary Japan which suggests that free goodies have been an essential marketing tool there. I don’t know that a free dvd with a purchase of a single seems all that extraordinary in a market in which giving away collectibles or luxury goods when selling a certain book or certain issue of a magazine is not abnormal practice.
“Can I prove that that is why the Promotional Video rankings were always skewed in a way that would not jive with the sales… nope… I can’t. ”
Your premise is false. Sales may not jive with video rankings but are they contradictory? No. Discordance between sales and video rankings here wouldn’t neccesarily mean there is a fabrication going on. Instead, it’s more like oversea Kpop fans aren’t buying every single and album that come out, that due to a number of issues.
And your assumptions are misleading. Are “Korean internet users” the ones driving up video rankings? That’s your and Taro’s bald assertion. I’d argue it’s not the Korean internet users who are pumping up those numbers.
Have you ever been told by a Korean male that if war were to break out he would drop everything and run south? How about a flight, boat, then trek north? Korean military men past and present should flee quickly to…
“In Mongolia, sex tourism by S. Korean males…”
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/298846.html
Go to this video, it’s just a teaser video for Big Bang’s impending release:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCyuAwftPY0
It’s been out for 4 days, and already has close to 1.5 million views.
Click on the viewer statistics and the map. What do we find?
I doubt the teenybopper females watching and rewatching this teaser, from all over the wold, are paid by YG Entertainment.
At the same time, I highly doubt they are taking out their American Express, Mastercard, and Visa to buy up all their singles, although BigBang’s new album did make # 6 on itunes chart in the US, this week.
End of story.
Correction, the video already has over 1.5 million views.
Hi Lollabrats – Good point. The time of marketing you speak of is usually tied in to print media. A magazine may go for $8, but it may very well come with a “free”YSL umbrella, or a fabric TOTE bag with magical words like “I am not a plastic bag” printed upon the. This marketting scheme, however, has yet to make the jump to CDs. One reason that Korean music companies are engineering so many bands for the Japanese market (occasionally, K-pop bands are being debuted in Tokyo, before Seoul, or a few weeks after Seoul…_) is the rich potential of the CD market and the fact that the arke has yet to be “watered down” with freebies. Just take a look at the top 100 singles/albums oricon charts. See how many have “free DVDs” attached to them (maybe 10%) and see how many of those are acts from Korea (maybe 90%)… again, though, this is not a criticism of K-pop marketers, if anything, its a compliment. They are tenacious and they are creative… BUT, they are still manipulating teh rankings. Much in the way that the Wondergirls made the US single billboard charts, by offering $1 CD singles at major teenie-bopper mall outlets and by launching a very well thought out marketing campaign to get young Korean Americans out to make $1 purchases.
Which brings me to ABCDE (a la greque)
- I agree with you that if Taro’s argument is solely about Youtube, he has a weak argument, but not for the reasons you put forth. Youtube is not in Japan what it is in Korea or the US. I actually just accessed the BigBang video you linked to, via a Japanese server, and none of the comments were in Japanese. Youtube popularity does not influence any major rankings in Japan.
- Oricon PV ranking has no effect on the actula ranking, however, prior to the release of Girls Generation, there were large ads for them on Oricon’s website, and when the Promotional Video (PV) first came out, those same ads were encouraging users to click on the ads (again, just basic marketing. smart move.).
- Oricon is very secretive about the way that they do anything, especially there rankings, When the whole “pre-order” scandal first came out, the journalist who broke the story was agressively fought by Oricon, and my understanding is that he was even arrested (but quickly released)… a highly unusual event in Japan. There is no way I can get the data as to where the computers accessing the PVs were located.
- I will not get into an argument as to the nature of internet polling, or the nature of Korean internet users, and the phenomena often noted by many an observer on certain “herd-like” behavior meant to strengthen the reputation of the country. Its a good topic to be further examined.
- As I do not have access to private, corporate held servers, or secret Oricon files, or the time to research this matter, I can not make any declarations on “right” or “wrong”…. I’m just glad that you have the access to such info, to make such definitive statements.
oh, and your big bang #6 on itunes comment further backs my point. the marketing was pushed to get them high ranked for that one single day. It is meant for selling albums and selling image in Korea, not in America. (Much like Seiko Matsuda tried to be a star in America, 17 years back. The Japanese press was all over that one. My Japanese friends thought that Americans knew who Seiko Matsuda was. 99% of Americans had no idea who Seiko Matsuda was, but the press reporting on her “success” put her in the limelight in Tokyo (not NY). ) Bigbang’s album will drop to 100 or lower by this time tomorrow. The marketing push is to get all purchases at the same time.
Also, the album is $6.99 on itunes, with a free digital book. Yes, only 6 songs, but still cheaper than most albums. Also, the 1360 overwhelmingly “5 star” ratings further speaks to the herd mentality. Radioheads’ “Best of” released back in 2008 has 35 iTunes reviews and 3.5 stars. I now realize that this discrepancy is due to my being out of touch with the reality of the market, and the complete and total UN-tendency of the Korean blogosphere to act in tandum.
αβγδε,
You mean the only link you have is from youtube, if what you say is true then I’ll be looking forward to hearing comedians make jokes about Big Bang sometime soon.
seouldout,
Yeah, video and mp3 piracy is a bitch (particularly). The Korean wave makes the most money in Japan, not China… although I’d hazard to guess that it’s consumed more in China. However, concert sales can’t be pirated and they are very strong in China and Japan.
I mean (particularly in Asia).
What I really object to is why leaflets? this day and age..
I also hate all those horrible random food delivery menus we get again and again..I used to tell them when I saw them “I already have it from your shop already, and if you give me more, I will not order from your shop”.. Apparently the sale goes up considerably on the night ..
Same goes for those call-girl cards and bar cards they would just “litter” onto the street! Disgusting!
Here is a more targeted approach.
I still have not seen the evidence that the Korean government is behind this devious scheme to forcibly push Korean pop culture on unsuspecting Japan. To be honest, it just sounds like someone is just embarrassed that something Korean which is thought to be inherently inferior can hold *some* mass appeal in Japan. We don’t want to dirty up the pure Japonophile image of Japan with something.. aghast..as Korean.
Seriously, it’s all marketing hype, and I’m sure it is, (since Japanese companies that are partnered with the Korean entertainment companies who know the Japanese market are the ones behind this marketing hype, and they’re the ones who are raking in most of the profit). The answer is simple really, instead of Japanese b*tching about it, just use the same tactics and promote the JPOP in the same manner. Finished. Problem gone away.
Another thing I have to say is that from my personal experience things are rather different then they were 10 years ago. At that time when I told other Asians (Chinese, Taiwanese, Filipinos, Japanese, etc.) that I was Korean it was met with casual, but appropriate, indifference. However, now (and for the past three years or so) I tell them I’m Korean and I get bombarded with questions about if Korean families are really the way they are portrayed in Korean dramas or random expressions like “I love Rain” or “I love 2NE1.” It’s actually kinda annoying.
Japonymous,
We’re arguing different things by now.
I’m not implying that Kpop is mainstream in the US. On the one hand, I find it remarkable that Kpop has garnered solid interest among many peoples outside Korea; be this interest fringe or else is not the issue. The point is that it’s sizable enough and significant. On the other hand, I’m sure Korean entertainers have a presence in Japan that is more than just fringe. I’m not saying however that ALL Korean entertainers have such a presence in Japan or that Kpop AS Kpop has such a presence. None of this should be under dispute. The dispute is whether this interest, correlating to the global popularity of videos on Youtube, fringe or not, is “manufactured” by Korean advertising or, worse, government agencies.
Assertion without substantiation is not acceptable, anywhere. In my town, we call that talking out your ass. That is the issue I have with Taro.
You seem to be incognizant of or unconcerned by how flagrant Taro’s assertions are here (“it’s a red-herring) for the sake of segue-waying into a conversation nobody is disputing (“it’s all just marketing”).
South Korea should stop the leaflet propaganda, because it’s just giving North Korea a weak excuse to be belligerent. There is no evidence at all that this tactic is effective in sewing disharmony in North Korea.
I wonder if DramaFever.com qualifies as part of this supposedly manufactured “Korean wave.” The website claims to be an outlet for Asian entertainment, but from what I can see, it’s overwhelmingly Korean.
Not that I really care, mind you. “Iris” and “Athena” are (were) pretty cool dramas, so how they get to my computer doesn’t really matter to me.
Still, a close read of the DramaFever website reveals this little tidbit: “We are privately funded by a group of angel investors.”
Uh, huh. I bet.
DLB
#62 – Most Viewed (This Week) – Music – Ireland
Man, that gave me such a laugh . In fact, I am still laughing as I type this.
Absolute tosh.
cm @ 35 – exactly, though, I do not think the overwhelming majority of Japanese give a crapola. My main contention is just that there has been some very creative marketing taking place here, and I agree, J-pop can also em\ulate that, but, not sure if they are going to want to cut their profit margins on CD sales down that much, and quite frankly, as you pointed out, they are making money off the situation anyways, and despite all the marketing bucks going into these K-pop groups, AKB48, and all their residual bands are still outselling them like 10 to 1. So, maybe they don’t need to change. change will come if there is a threat (like a growth in piracy). K-pop is not a threat. It is a welcome contributor to the Japanese music scene.
ABCDE # 37 – I’m not arguing that Taro’s Youtube assertion is correct. what I am arguing is that there is a degree of manufacturing to the “K-pop wave” and that part of that degree stems from:
1- Is it really any different from J-pop? The language used is Japanese and the style of dancing and presentation and group formation are based on the Japanese “idol manufacturing” model.
2- The K-pop marketers are using well used marketing tools in Japan and notching them up a bit. throwing lots and lots of cash on building a brand before a name is even known or established. Bundling DVDs with CDs , but charging CD prices and including in CD sales numbers. Linking in with established Japanese music companies, and offering super sweet deals to sell a product, which, frankly, is already well tested and proven, and allowing said Japanese companies to keep most of the profits (in order to encourage more aggressive marketing).
For the most part, ABCDE and CM, I agree with both of you. Japan is an open society, open to the popular cultural of their neighbors, as well as many others. I further believe that there are certain tools of manipulation which have been used more so aggressively in marketing Korean bands, such as the pre-order situation (looking to a songs sales over an extended period of time gives you a better view of popularity) and the inherent “fan boys/girls” purchases that also come almost immediately.
And, again, my whole point all along with Taro was “who cares.” If his only point to discuss the “manufacturing” of a K-pop craze in Japan was Youtube, then, yes, I agree with you, he is wrong, but, I did not watch the original Japanese program, and you are just going on a Korean press report of said program, and all this is thus hearsay to the 2nd degree from my vantage point. And quite honestly, I was not speaking to Taro’s argument specifically, but the point raised on manufacturing popularity, or the image of popularity, in general. I do know people in the Japanese music industry, however, who have pointed out many of the industry are aware of, K-pop bundling with DVDs or free concert tickets, Sweet deals for Japanese corporate distributors) which would indicate a certain “above an beyond” aspect to the marketing. (Also heard that there is a rift inside AVEX between one senior VP backing Koda Kumi and another, of Korean decent, backing Hamasaki Ayumi, who is pushing heavily to bring more Korean acts to Japan…. fascinating stuff… wait.. scratch that, I forgot, I know nothing of Japan or it music industry.)
And finally:
“Assertion without substantiation is not acceptable, anywhere. In my town, we call that talking out your ass. That is the issue I have with Taro.”
Yes- we would call that “talking out of your ass” in Queens, NY (but not so much in Tokyo… not so big on sarcasm here) as well, but, your constant absolute denial of any Korean internet herd mentality with no back-up would qualify for said definition as well. You must admit, however, the Big Bang v Radiohead comparison speaks volumes, and no, i haven’t spoken to everyone who left a comments for both albums, nor have I polled every teen-aged girl in Vancouver, LA or Tokyo, but your assertion that there is no herd-like mentality in play here, (or in play in many of these internet clicking contest that involve Korea in anyway) and thus does not speak to the actual popularity of an artist, would strike me as a bit out there as well.
Lets agree to disagree on that one.
Again, for clarification, I agree. There is no Korean government agency, or funded NGO, out there, clicking on internet links to raise the rep of K-pop.
Oh, BTW, North Korea’s use of the “sea of fire” threat was NOT actually first used during the 1994 nuclear crisis. This is a common belief, and I’m not sure where it comes from, but the “sea of fire” rhetoric goes back at least to the 1950s, and was used regularly in the 1960s and 1970s before going into some kind of hybernation until it was dusted off in 1994. It was this re-emergence of the phrase, not any first use, that caught people’s attention in 1994.
Which brings us to a more bizarre question, which is why Pyongyang chose to dust off a phrase that had gone into disuse. Crazy as it sounds, there were more than a few intelligence types at the time who actually floated the idea that Pyongyang specifically resurrected the phrase because it thought it would have a more salient effect on then President Kim Young Sam, whose (assumed) devout Presbyterianism would have interpreted the phrase through the prism of the Book of Revelations, and not just as boilerplate rhetoric.
Pure speculation, of course, but it must be nice to actually get paid to be an intelligence “analyst.”
DLB
“Again, for clarification, I agree. There is no Korean government agency, or funded NGO, out there, clicking on internet links to raise the rep of K-pop”
Debate settled. Everyone agrees Taro is wrong to bring on Korean government. Debate over. Will this be the end of this silly argument? Probably not. LOL.
“your constant absolute denial of any Korean internet herd mentality with no back-up”
LOL.
Let me try to figure this out for you. At some point, it seemed as though you were ascribing YT rankings to “Korean internet users”; my point was that it’s evident that many if not most of the users driving the rankings are not Korean netizens and offered to you the data and other considerations. You presumed something about the rankings that was being disputed and I disagreed. Note: I wasn’t talking about Korean netizens. Nothing about Korean netizens per se was denied, no “absolute, constant” apologia for them or their “herd mentality” given. So I think your misreading must be due to a mental rut — you’re unable to move beyond the circular thinking that if a Korean vid has a lot of views then it has to have been caused by Korean netizens, and you think that when I deny such a causation in anyway then I am saying something about Korean netizens who, in your mind, can be the only factor involved. Do you see the error there?
But, whateverz…
Yeah, sure. Let’s agree to disagree and agree to agree where we do, apparently, uh, agree.
—
DLBarch,
I never heard of dramafever.com before, but I think I’m going to find out what the hype about Secret Garden is soon. I haven’t seen a new Kdrama in years, although I did watch the first two episodes of Athena. I think you’d like Taewangsashingi. Produced in 2007, it’s got a lot of great production values and CG, a very entertaining story arch.
BTW, I mention Secret Garden because I came across a hearty recommendation for it on Youtube by… a caucasian, American girl — in retrospect, obviously a paid Korean agent, and by that I mean the girl must have been an ethnic Korean straight-up wearing a blond wig and blue contacts! There is no “Right” or “Wrong” here; I don’t have access to the “secret” files. LOL.
dramafever.com only works in the us and canada. they have agreements with all 3 k tv comps. initially, they only had one. if you go there a lot, you might notice there seems to be quite a bit of spanish advertising. i’m sure it’s all just a ploy by the korean government to get people to think there are actually latinos who watch k dramas.
‘you’re unable to move beyond the circular thinking that if a Korean vid has a lot of views then it has to have been caused by Korean netizens’
the otaku was clever with this one; he said he wasn’t going to address ‘the korean herd mentality’ as he addressed ‘the korean herd mentality’. his point? all those hits on youtube are a result of ‘korean herd mentality’. these otakus really get pissed to see korean things popular in japan.
btw, you mean k companies spending all that money just to be able to say k pop is popular in japan? BULLSH*T!
Of course it’s all a secret Korean government plot to corrupt the youth of Japan. Haven’t you noticed the secret messages in the songs? (and the free DVDs!!! HOW DARE THEY!!! I repeat: there are FREE DVDs!!!!!11111). Be paranoid, Japanymous, be very very paranoid.
Now that we are on the subject…hey guys what’s your favourite song on the new Big Bang mini ?
Mine is this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNf0tZjwR8Y
I can imagine but uber-coolness comes with a price
yes, all those free dvd sure must cut into profit. of course, we must wonder how k pop comps make any money in japan while giving away all that free stuff. of course, to the otaku, profit is not the motive; nope, the motive is for korean companies to proclaim that k pop is popular in nippon. that’s a perfect business strategy.
i wonder if yangachi is being paid by the korean government. he seems to love k pop. he says he’s an italian but according to our otaku, he MUST be a korean.
I guess it’s easy for some people here to say that much of the Korean Wave is manufactured, etc. Let’s face it. A lot of us (including myself at 37 y/o) are old farts. Those that are most interested in the current incarnation of the Korean wave are in their teens and 20′s. Kids these days seem a lot more open than our (or older) generation in their sources of entertainment. I guess a lot of us are quite far removed from the Korean Wave… literally.
Alpha Beta,
I’ll be sure to look for “Taewangsashingi.” As for DramaFever.com, the site is much better than it was even a year or so ago. Maybe it has something to do with what Pawi said about it now carrying dramas from Korea’s three major networks.
I had given up on the website until just a few weeks, when I saw that “Athena” had made its way to Hulu.com. That made be re-visit DramaFever, and lo’ and behold, a totally revamped and very sophisticated website. Just terrific.
When time allows, I might even check out Daemul. Or not.
Cheers,
DLB
They closed the fantastic masamixes YT channel, the razilian dj who does the bbest k-pop mashups, here’s a sample of his astonishing work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJHHqG3KfH0
Carlos/masa must be paid ROK secret agent out to spread false rumours that k-pop is actually big in Brazil (actually my Brazilian drama-crazy friend must be another one of those agents).
No now that i think about it they must be NORK agents paid to make people believe they’re ROK spies and S.Korean government is fraudolently trying to convince the world Korean entertainment is popular
PS
Athena is great but i can’t wait for Iris 2
go F yourself
Nah… f-ing a chick in her early to mid-20′s is much better…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VaE4hloeU8
Aehm going back to the topic well me thinks k-pop will never become systematically huge around the world, for the simple reason there’s scarcely any mass phenomenon left in the entertainment industry (Gaga and Bieber being the exception) which seems to have fragmented into countless niches.
Under this premise i can see easily k-pop carving for itself a decent market share cos quite frankly it’s well done, much better than j-pop which even at the peak of my manga/anime frenzy sounded to my ears more inaudible than cat screeching.
Inkevitch once pointed out how k-pop incorporates as influences various styles of electronic music, which were underground just a few years ago.
Probably on a smaller scale but i think k-pop could have a nice bang in N.America/Europe kinda like latin and pseudo-latin pop did in the late 90′s, followed by a decline and stabilisation of the fan base.
You remember Anggun ? C’mon she was briefly big, why 2ne1 or Big Bang or others shouldn’t be able to do the same ?
Remember Carla Sozzani basically proclaimed Seoul the capital of cool, that biatch doesn’t talk just pour parler
Taeyeon (태연) sings the main theme song of the south Korean drama, “Athena: the Goddess of War” (아테나: 전쟁의 여신):
“I love you” (사랑해요)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7qhP35ECxo
belair,
Can you email me at my usernameatgmai ldotcom? I’d like bother you off-forum about Urimal, if I may. Thanks very much!
Another resounding endorsement for the efficacy of roofies. They’re not just for tongue-tied FOBs.
@lollabrats http://www.rjkoehler.com/2011/02/28/odds-ends-feb-28-2011/#comment-410374):
No, not Park Chung-hee. An NK corps staged a coup following Kim’s ascension in 1994. It was quashed with much bloodshed, and the nation’s corps were reorganized. The opaqueness of the regime makes it difficult to see the factional fault lines clearly, but, in such a closed regime, power is zero sum. The Dear Leader had decades of experience before he assumed his titles; I think it’s safe – indeed, prudent and necessary to assume that – Kim Jong-un doesn’t have the skills and networks to halt another challenge to his ascension. It took Kim Jong-il many years to consolidate his power. Kim Jong-un is younger, probably with some of his father’s supporters perhaps, but I would be on alert for the next decade at least. If I were optinistic, I’d argue that North Korea is “progressing” from a less sophisticated authoritarian structure to a more military-bureaucratic structure reminiscent of more mature regimes, like those in South America, such as Argentina or Chile. Just beginning, that is.
I also disagree with your perspective on Egypt. Check out: (http://www.kiwipolitico.com/2011/02/why-a-putsch-is-not-a-revolution/), and the comments thread between Pablo and me. Media coverage has been disgustingly dull-witted on the government stuff.
seouldout,
Well… if you need that kinda help. You brought it up, not I.
Honestly, I think North koreans always try to intimadate by threats. I’m sure by now, everyone’s lind of sick of them trying to bully South Korea. But then again, it does kind of worry me that one day they will just go over the edge and do something crazy.
I’m hopeful that one day korea will be reunited, but not in the near future. There’s just too much work that needs to be done and not sure if many people would even want it.
The underwhelming he-who-dealt-it-smelt-it reply.
I know you’re still fumbling with the language, but at 37 you ought to be a bit more adroit. All this time I thought you were a 19-year-old juco student w/ a part-time job in a taco truck and a hobby of making stuff up. This is just embarrassing.
seouldout,
Jealousy is such an ugly emotion.
soldout’s favorite pickup line:
“Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?”
soldout’s favorite pickup line:
“Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?”
Obviously another paid ROK agent. Secret meeting is at 3:00PM next Wednesday guys.
cm @42 – Agreed. If Taro was claiming that there is some grand internet conspiracy to reign the fury of all that is kpop upon the innocents of Japan, then, he is absolutely wrong. Again, I did not see the original TV report in Japanese, and I can not read the Korean recast of the “facts.”
ABCDE @ 43 – LOL. You are condescending. I was merely trying to point out that internet “clicking contests” are in and of themselves flawed, and further show that they are tremendously flawed when we put Korean politics or popular culture into the mix. I tried to put my points across however, without laughing at your arguments and without implying that you were talking out of your ass. The point is simple. Again. “internet “clicking contests” are in and of themselves flawed” and “they are tremendously flawed when we put Korean politics or popular culture into the mix.” However, again, this has nothing to do with what I would consider “manufacturing” popularity. If Taro used the Youtube example as an indication of a Korean government effort to enhance K-pops rep in Japan, I believe he is wrong. As such, we agree on the same conclusion here.. and hey… look… I haven’t insulted you once! Wow!
Tiny Flowers @45 – Actually, I have said, consistently, that the more the penetration of Korean culture in Japan (and vice versa) the better both countries will be. A growing penetration of Korean popular culture in Japan is a good thing, and I hope it continues to grow. Most Japanese seem not to be concerned one way or another. I have, however, raised the point, over and over again (and no one has interestingly touched this one) that we are dealing with the basic Japanese tweeked “idol formula” with artists that preform in Japanese. Not quite a Korean cultural avalanche there. Yet, still a good thing for Japan. AND, again, and this is key, still very grateful for the popularity of that KARA song at year end parties… nice!
The only thing I’m trying to inject here, is that we need to critically analyze the declarations of absolute success, and we need to note that certain indications of said success have been manufactured. Look, you can laugh at the DVD analysis all you want, but, again, we are talking about a CD ranking chart (why wouldn’t the product be listed as a DVD, the premium media type instead?) here, and a chart, which again, when analyzed, will show that almost all of the chart toppers who offered free DVDs were K-pop acts. When the Korean media, or even the Japanese media reports on Kara or TVXQ reaches #so and so on the chart, there is no analysis there as to what factors (other than, hey, these guys rock!) may be in play here. Discount prices below the national average and free DVDs are a definite factor, when compared to the other chart toppers. I am not saying these acts have not done a great job in Japan DESPITE this, but I am saying that the media should report on the marketing sales efforts as well. Reminds me of when the Korean press kept on saying that Rain has a sold out concert in MSG, when in fact he sold out the mini theater in the back room of MSG, not the coliseum. Again, not a lie, just an omission of information. Or the $1 a CD, and consorted effort to get Korean and Korean American fans to the store to buy CD efforts of JYP with the Wondergirls. Or the giving out of free Kara tickets to claim that concerts were “sold out” in Japan. Its not the marketing policies I disapprove of, its the constant repeating of the resulting “success” which makes me queezy. And, btw, I feel the same way when I see similar marketing in all spheres of the market. This is not, by any stretch, a “Korean thing”… this is a marketing thing… one which I happen to not like to much…
Pawi @ everywhere @ any time: Did you ever know that you were my hero? (I was debating between that or the song from Bodyguard. Beaches won out, as well it should.)
LOL, good luck with that…
#66, so what you’re basically saying is that it’s all marketing. Well, thanks for the profound insight, japanymous. I never would have guessed it.
Seouldout, you want me to play the devil’s advocate again?
BTW, #57 was definitely you (you know what that means).
How ridiculous Nipponese are, if K-pop sensation is control by Korean government, does this is mean even Hollywood is control by American government? Okay, even Bollywood is control by Indian government too. How about J-pop? does Nipponese government deliberately controls J-pop industry to hire more under aged girls for sexual favor for Nipponese Otakus?
Come on Tinyflowers, stop being petty and all semantic-al. Yes. All marketing is manipulation or “manufacturing” as the accusation is being put forth here. All I’m saying is that some of the marketing used was irregular, and that if we just look to the results, an Oricon ranking (which in an of itself is heavily flawed in its overall construction) without critically considering the tools used to get there, we are skipping a step of analysis.
What I would lobe to see is the way the money goes around. This K-pop thing has been manna from heaven for the Japanese media establishment. Money has been coming in from all sorts of sources to pay for all this advertising and PR. Some, most definitely from Japanese media sources, in cases in which they are given a finished product, which would have taken much more time and money for a Japanese agency to produce on their own, and others coming from, who knows where? I too have heard from people either in or connected to the music industry here that some of it may be government funded, but I think the “government funding,” if any, is is indirect. I believe I have read about subsidies given to these production companies to assist them in marketing overseas. A means of selling the Korea brand. I don’t have a problem with that.
But, it si interesting to note, for example, the current KARA controversy, where half the members are claiming that they are getting the equivalent of $80 a day while in Japan on tour, and the management company is claiming that they are barely breaking even in Japan. Not quite sure what the story is there, and doubt we will ever know, as a sealed settlement will probably come from this, but, as long as the Japanese media machine is continuously fed cash, they will continue to push forth the next K-pop group, and the next one. The second payment is stopped on a check, the symbiotic relationship ends. More disbanded groups may also lead to this, as the Japanese companies are (possibly?) spending cash to get their names out, only to discover that the band no longer exists 6 months later.
Regardless, I’m just putting the last paragraph out there as conjecture. Not as fact and more as question. Where is this money coming from, and who is getting paid?
Don’t know if there are many readers out there in Japan, but I’m sure they could attest to the fact that the amount of marketing bucks being spent on the likes of KARA and Girls Generation was HUGE! They were on video screens in Shibuya and Shinjuku. on TV morning news shows, playing in the background at electronic stores in the TV section in constant loop. HUGE! Would love to see the numbers. Anyone with any insight on this one? Thanks!
let’s not bother with otaku who informs us what we are seeing isn’t what we are seeing. the hell with him. let him get to his manga.
“Not often you see “Cho” spelled “Chough”, but it does happen.”
That’s a first for me.
Pawi – I’m still at beaches. You continue this love you are showing me, and I will move on to the Bodyguard theme song.
You see Pawi. You entertain me without any end. I like to be entertained. Thank you. You also like BSG (not sure about bears and beats though). I too like BSG (I’m ok with the beats and “if-fy” on the bears, but the wild like variety, and not the Chicago football team. For some strange reason, I’ve always had a thing for the Bills). Your affection for BSG indicates to me that you have at least half decent taste and are capable of at least some degree of critical thinking. Hence, I embrace your constant insults and far fetched racism. I pretend that you are a writer for 30 Rock, and you have created an outlandish offensive character for yourself, that you know, deep down inside, viewers can’t really hate.
So, Pawi, did you ever know that you’re my hero?
I salute you sir!
Japonymous go back and read what you just wrote. You are double speaking.
Where are you hearing all these rumors? Name your sources and please back up your sources that the Korean government is behind the control of Korean pop groups. Actually, if you look at the Youtube analysis, most of the clicks for the JPOP groups are coming strictly from Japan – which leads us to believe that the mass appeal of JPOP groups are indeed being controlled by Japanese interests (whatever that maybe). On the other hand, Youtube analysis shows that the clicks for KPOP groups are coming from Asia, Europe, South America, and North America – much more widely spread. For what you are subtly suggeting to be able to happen, the Korean government must have somehow recruited millions of loyal Gyopo spambots overseas to click on the Youtube links day and night just so that it makes it look like KPOP is more popular then it really is. Frankly, that’s just as believable as you trying to convince us that you are trying to be logical here with all the double speak.
‘Frankly, that’s just as believable as you trying to convince us that you are trying to be logical here with all the double speak.’
말씀하셔서고맙습니다, cm씨.
your attempts to anger me are feeble. i suggest you study sperwer and the lawyer if you want to get good at doing that. i admire them even though i despise them. i consider them real men because each is aggressive and i like aggressive.
What I just wrote was a question, and info to juice up said question, cm. (unless you mean my salute to Pawi) There is no way I can substantiate anything I wrote there. It is merely based on things I have heard. Hearsay. Admitted wholly and completely. The part about the marketing I observed, on the other hand, was not hearsay, as I observed it.
So, I posed a question. You see CM, I’m, as they say “on the ground.” I am writing you from Japan. I want to know what others have heard about where the money is coming from, and where it is going. I’m just curious. Especially if its coming from someone “in the know.” Or, also “on the ground.”
Also on the government subsidy for popular culture front, studies have been conducted, and it has been discussed academically:
he Korean government has promoted the Korean Wave as an export industry, with efforts that range from celebrating Korean pop stars in tourism materials to the direct support of Korean media companies. Thus K-pop stars figure prominently on the Chinese and Japanese versions of the Korean Tourism Organization Web site, and government promotions specifically highlight K-pop celebrities (Yu-Shan Lin and Hwang 2008). At the same time, the Korean government has offered subsidies for “cultural industries” (Chua and Iwabuchi 2008, 28), and industry representatives have called for low-interest loans in order to support the continued success of hallyu (Kang 2009).
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7066/is_31/ai_n45060645/
But,as I sated earlier, I don’t care. That is not an issue for me.
And, CM, you are bringing back the Youtube thing again. I never claimed that was some government conspiracy… heck (that’s right! I cussed!) I actually think that government intervention is a good idea. Why not? It does no harm for society. enhances the image of Korea and may lead to increased tourism revenue, international interest in the country, and more revenue for Korean media companies. My point was made pretty consequently. When you read in the Korean press that “so and so” band was “Number so-and-so” on the Japanese Oricon charts,and as a result, “Japan is going ga-ga over all things Korean” – think about the numbers you see and read critically. Contemplate the fact that the actual Korean culture being transferred is minimal for now (though, hopefully, it will lead to more straight out clearly Korean cultural content – and yes, I would say that a subtitled Korean drama would definitely be in that category) as the idol model being used by the K-pop idol generators is a Japanese one, and as the language used is Japanese, and understand that the marketing ploys being used are somewhat out of the ordinary for the domestic market. Again, yes, its a small point, but the “free DVD” Oricon chart analysis I put forth above speaks volumes as to what I’m trying to get at here. Guys, I’m not even attempting to say that Korean bands are not doing well in Japan, all I| am saying is that I have seen these hyperbolic moves to make success look even more successful than it is, time and time again. Be it with Rain, or the Wondergirls, or the Face Shop, or the 15 year old example i gave earlier on Matsuda Seiko.
The Youtube thing is not about government intervention. I was merely making the point earlier that I don’t trust the internet click voting method, and I posed the Radiohead v. Bigbang comparison to show why. That conversation is over, and, quite frankly, I find the inability to bend an iota on views pertaining on this, by a certain block on this blog to be, well, scary. I’m not saying anything crazy. Yet, the responses to my arguments are akin to what I would expect to hear if I posted some kind of a Holocaust denial rant. Mean… except for Pawi… he’s the bestest!
Oh Pawi! I’m not trying to anger you! Really!
there is another reason I salute you as well… you were nice to me once. Showed a glimmer of humanity to a fellow human out there in the ether. That also told me that you weren’t an “ass.”
You like to mess with people. I get that. I not only get it, I find it funny at times… actually almost always. And, though I didn’t get it at first, I am often amused when people take your bait. I mean, come one, even your racist avatars indicate a certain self-mockery and over the top humor that a true insult hurling racist would be incapable of creating.
Oh, and I really do like BSG… Caprica… not so much… even though they make the Adama family Greek-ish… still not a fan…
“i consider them real men because each is aggressive and i like aggressive.”
I think the term you are looking for is rough trade. That explains pretty much everything we need to know about you though, twat.
Pretty amusing to see the identities of winky, sidekick pokey, quasimodo, and cm so wrapped up in ups and downs of the saccharine tripe known as the Korean Ripple. Pity that the North Americans here aren’t as emotionally involved in the success and failings of Justin Biever and Lady Gaga; there would be one helluva clash. Guess they don’t have the ethnic pride.
Says much about the quality of the company you keep. Why are you hanging out at junior high schools?
@80 – you owe me a keyboard and monitor, mate. Coffee spew everywhere.
japonymous, i am surprised. you actually reached me. wise you are, and blind you are not. i’ll drop the hostile from here on.
‘I think the term you are looking for is rough trade. That explains pretty much everything we need to know about you though, twat.’ aaronm
i couldn’t stop laughing! funny!
“Pity that the North Americans here aren’t as emotionally involved in the success and failings of Justin Biever and Lady Gaga”
You are entirely missing the point, Seouldout. If the charges that the corrupt US government is behind spreading the US culture in Korea by pumping billions of dollars to fund something that nobody cares about, you’d be the first one to comment, no doubt.
This bird?
If you’re going with a geriatric as the arbiter of “cool” I’d ask Grandpa Al Lewis.
I agree with Seouldout that the obsession with Kpop singers is pretty ghey given the genre is aimed at girls up to the age of about 14. For fans of non-ghey tripe, this begs the discussion of Korean music of a more meaty variety. There were a few punk bands when I lived in Cheongju and particularly one very impressive ‘oi!’ outfit that I would pay to see again and a death metal act I caught one night that was made up of Korean lads who looked like computer geeks and would have probably weighed 250 kg dripping wet between the five of them, but sounded like Napalm Death on testosterone. I’ll have a butchers on Myspace when my workload decreases to below dull roar levels, but anyone else interested could look for stuff to post in the forthcoming open thread to counter the massive amount of ghey.
btw j, just a few things:
1. you want us to understand the japanese but you don’t seem to be taking the time to understand the koreans. think a little deeper about the significance of kara in japan. think about it in a korean context and you might understand it a bit better.
2. those people i go after deserve it. they say some of the most racist things i’ve seen said about koreans and i’m offended. i’m no longer young. that means i’m a bit schooled on life. i know how to f*ck with people’s minds. just look what i did to traash. he was like a puppet on a string. that was too easy.
i hope you have good day, and i like the song ‘bad girl’ by jasmine.
If the US gov’t were promoting Lady Gaga or other drivel you bet I’d be the first to comment. It would be worthy of my spite.
Read comment 78, silly goose.
Take your spite off for a minute and think. Government tourism promotions to take advantage of Korean Pop culture, or Hollywood, is not the same as hinting that the Korean government is behind the hoopla, and is entirely making an industry out of an illusion. If anything, the real culprit is the Japanese advertising firms who have done a magnificent job promoting KPOP in Japan, and consequently has been rewarded financially by their Japanese consumers, just don’t use this excuse to spread the Korean conspiracy theories that are supposedly corrupting Japan.
So, Pawi, what are your views on the Korean view on the significance of Kara in Japan? Grazie.
Them brothers’ hip hop sounds might do for a few here. Again from the X-Ecutioners:
Let It Bang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p0HQGXvfH4
CM, who said “the Korean conspiracy theories that are supposedly corrupting Japan”??? Loony tunes say that. Wacky in the head says that. Nobody hear is saying that, I doubt that even the Korean press’s (most probably inaccurate) reporting on the Taro TV appearance said anything like that. And again, I like that you cut out the subsidies part, and just kept to the promotion part. Yes, I linked to an article citing to a paper drafted by someone of Korean decent that stated that there were government subsidies. I have no idea how much those subsidies account for. Could very well be “billions of dollars” – could be cab fare to a hotel. Which is why I put it out there. Does anybody know? Inquiring minds want to know!
I most certainly have not said that the government subsidies are solely responsible for teh growth of K-pop in Japan… I think the main reasons are the ones I repeat ad infinitum before:
- Japanese idol machine model being used.
- To paraphrase S. Colbert, “they’re not singing in Korean.”
- the bands brough in for export purposes are, for teh most part extreemeyly well trained, polished, and ready for prime time.
- use of such “lock-key” bands are a boom for Japanese media companies, as they use the money usually used for development into marketing.
BUT – AGAIN!!! Just think critically about the other factors that are making the phenomena seems bigger than it is:
- Oricon charts are in and of themselves of a questionable nature (see pre-orders, preferential treatment for major advertisers)
- The acts that did make the Oricon 100 were almost always tied in with some kind of “give away” on the CD (people… again… by a CD get a free DVD is like me selling ice cream, and giving away free steak) or free concert tickets, when similar tactics were not used by domestic artists…. and again, Oricon ONLY measures CD sales, not popularity per se.
- Despite your vehement denials, there apparently is a subsidy program in place assisting companies that attempt to “export” their product. I can not comment on this program, as I don’t know enough about it. I have heard rumors of the payments being substantial, but they are only rumors. Can anyone point me in the right direction here? Thanks!
Riiiiiiiiigggghhhhhhhhttt cos in the US Hollywood doesn’t get fiscal and other type of subsidies and politicians and businessmen alike don’t actively seek the company of the dummiest celebritards around and American intelligence sources never mentioned entertainment as a tool to promote America and decrease the amount of hostility toward Americans around the world.
Also i’d try to go to say shitville Tennessee and tell the average local Joe that country music is annoying shit for retards, i’d like to see if you live to tell grungy boy.
Carla Sozzani is an old hag but trust me she as an eye to scam money from people, you think it takes a 15 years old to spot what is cool for well 15 years olds ?
i’m asking you to understand the hype through korea’s experience with the japanese. this is all a bit surprising and yes, a bit shocking since the japanese have usually thumbed their nose at korea. let the koreans have their hype if you believe that’s what it is, though i’d say there is at least some truth to that hype. can we agree on that?
have a good night.
Yeah, Pawii, we can agree on that. But, you should be made aware that the overwhelming majority of Japanese either welcome Korea, in it many forms, be it culture, music, food or history, or don’t have any feelings towards the matter whatsoever.
Japan is a pretty chill place. Have a feeling you have never been (past Narita, at least). Thinking that a visit would milden you up a bit… life is good guys!
aaronm: what was the name of the oi! band ? Jiraltan ? Samchung ?
God back in the day i loved going to oi! concerts with other scum to annoy all the bootboys and get fucked up, now i’m fuckin’ nostalgic.
MIxHC forever
Per voi solo odio e violenza
Honestly i’ll side with Japonymous on this. that’s exactly the impression i got visiting the place
Japonymous is the same poster who said:
“Though Mr. Taro’s assertion is correct, a proper response would be, “so what?”
Japonymous says one thing, then he says another. I just get the general impression for some reason, that you are peddling the Korean conspiracy theories that are floating about in the Japanese internet sites and some Japanese media that the evil Korean government and their underlings who are Zainichi Koreans are the ones behind controlling the Japanese media to create an illusion that there is a mass popular fad for Korean pop culture. That’s all I’m saying.
OMG! CM, is that you watching over my shoulder! Holy Crapola… boys! shut it down! Shut it down!
CM – I wish you were at least capable of self parody or at least have shown yourself to have a sense of humor to any degree, then, well, I would have at least been like, “hey! like Pawi, differences of opinion aside, he probably ain’t all that bad!” And, well, I just probably would brush aside an asinine remark like that, but as you have never displayed the possibility of possessing a sense of humor, the “brush-aside” is a difficult move for me to maneuver…
But, I’ll brush it aside, nonetheless, as it is clear that you either haven’t read anything I wrote, or are incapable of getting what I was trying to convey.
And, actually, upon further reflection, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk that asinine comment up to your attempt at a joke If that is the case, then I apologize, I may have been wrong about your, sir.
You have yet to earn the beaches soundtrack though!
Yangachi, of course a Greek and Italian would see eye to eye on that point;)
#99, I can easily use the Korean-Japan translators which are uncannily accurate (unlike the Korean to English translators), to know what I just wrote is a very much popular view in Japanese internet sites. My opinions about Japan are based on mostly what I read in their internet sites and the mass opinions that they present. So I apologize if my views are not the entire picture.
cm: i wouldn’t judge any country from their netizens as results would be discomforting everywhere across the planet
Japonymous: what always strike me as amazing about Greek people is how calm and relaxed they seem to be comparing to my lot of neuromaniacs. I bought a house in Rhodes for my mom and her husband, she spends the summer there and everytime they come back she keeps telling me how everything is great in RHodes and how it sucks to be back home
CM- No! You accused ME of being some kind of looser who spends his entire day spewing out god-awful retarded internet conspiracies. I imagine, for example you used the fact that I mentioned that a senior VP at Avex who is dealing with Korean acts is of Korean decent was akin to me making some kind of racist conspiratorial diatribe: a) a Korean living in Japan who has many contacts in the industry advised me of that fact and b) that would seem like a logical thing to happen. If I were asked to liaison with Greek clients, well, yeah… that’s a no-brainier. And, i didn’t imply that that was a bad thing. AVEX is a publicly listed company (in both Japan and Germany – co-founder now in jail for fraud or drugs or both… but that’s another issue), and the conflict between the Hamasaki Ayumi and Koda Kumi camp is known of and discussed. Is my bringing that point up enough for you to wise to the conclusion that I sit around typing away negative things about Korean residents of Japan??? Really??? you have no idea who I am. Whatever CM. Let the accusations fly.
Also, what are you doing? Using autotranslate on 2 channel boards?? I mean really??? Japan is a country of over 140 million people. Doing that would be akin to monitoring some ding-bat militia message board in teh US and attempting to convey that those views were the same as the majority (or anything over.0001% of the US population). What about you CM? Have you ever been to Japan, outside of Narita? How many Korean-Japanese friends do you know? I know Koreans in Japan who went to a pro-pyongyang schools from pre-K through University and who now teach at those same schools. Do you know anyone like that outside of Japan who has received a similar education? Does a society that would allow that strike you as one that opens their mouths and screeches bodysnatcher like whenever they hear someones last name is Kim?
Rhodes??? Really??? I have cousins there! My mom went to high school there!! Family is from a neighboring island (which I dare not reveal here)
Told you a while back how my older relatives grew up under Italian occupation. Sadly, my relatives who actually spoke Italian have all already passed away. Old age sucks!
I’m glad your mom likes rose. As the movie Mediteraneo declares, “una fazza una razza!”
In case anybody cares about the OTHER topic on this thread:
Anybody care to hazard a guess as to when North Korea will figure out how to put nuclear warheads onto their existing short-range missiles? Imagine them sending two or three of those bad boys towards, oh, say Daegu, along with an ultimatum of “surrender or Seoul is next . . . you have 12 hours.”
hehe wonder if it’s Karpathos or Tilos, they love it there, me and wife also love it too: getting more touristy but it’s still quiet and in late spring it is just breath-taking.
Greece has the most beautiful colors in the world
Tilos… close, but no cigar… give you a hint… you mentioned colors, and for some reason (which is very well known) this island is full of the color green. Shines out like an emerald in the water….
AHHHHH the trendy one, gotcha
GRanfalloon: drty bombs over Daegu ??? Why such a drastic forecast ?
Oh, no, not Santorini. But, again, close… so you were georgraphically close with Tilos and Rhodes, and now geologically close with Santorini
#103, now you’re sounding like “I know lots of black people.. “. That’s just my impression of you, based strictly on your writings. Furthermore, unless a supposed Zainichi came out and said he was a Zainichi to you, I have to question if he really is an ethnic Korean, in consideration of the fact that if any Japanese that are seen to be working against the interest of Japan, are often accused of being a Korean in disguise.
YangachiBastardo:
Oh no, I’m not talking about dirty bombs. North Korea could do that next week if they were so inclined. I’m talking about the Hiroshima of the 21st century, but worse: a full nuclear strike. The reason I bring it up is because it strikes me as a plausible possibility within the next decade. We know NK has the bomb. It is literally just a matter of time before they figure out an effective way of using it.
OK CM, whatever. I don’t need to justify anything to you as far as who my friends are and who I hang out with, and what my background is. But, CM. for what its worth. my interest in the Zainichi community in Japan and all they have had to face, their successes and failures, their sense of identity, etc. goes back over 20 years ago when I first lived in Japan. I lived in Osaka, which has a rich and active Korean community. I was always particularly interested in that microcosm of Japanese society, as I was the son of immigrants in my own native land of America (again, just to be specific, Queens, NY baby!). I’ve attended cultural festivals for the community, and have befriended, and gotten to know wonderful (and some not so wonderful) people who identify themselves as both South and North Korean. I can tell from the lovely way you are incapable of compromise, and that you will fight to the bitter end anyone who may be critical of anything which you view to be pro-Korean, and the way that you just as passionately attack anything or anyone who you feel is pro-Japanese, that you too are a man of the world who has traveled far and wide, always keeping an open mind and an open heart. Heck! i was probably sitting next to you at that Zainichi community fundraiser i attended in Osaka 17 years ago! Or, who knows, you were probably standing right over my shoulder when I was discussing the delightfully dramatic happenings at AVEX. Or, I’m sure that you too followed the travails of Mr. Masyoshi Son in his successful fight to keep his last name and get Japanese nationality (Go Masa GO! – He got his Japanese wife to start a new family registry with the name “Son” thereby making it a Japanese name… brilliant!) or the story of Japan’s Korean descented Asian cup soccer champion who used to play for Korea, but decided to become a Japanese national when he national when he realized that, well, he was, more or less culturally Japanese. I’m sure in your mind, all of Japan cried that day, or maybe they just stopped hating Koreans for just one single moment out of respect.
I particularly appreciate that you didn’t even comment on any of the non-personal points I raised, and just started to go for the, “Oh yeah, my best friend is black line!” (I’m quoting, not you there, but the cliche gods).
CM. Get out there. Travel. Meet people of all different shapes, sizes colors, ethical codes, morals, tastes. You have hate in you. Expunge! Expunge!
“It is literally just a matter of time before they figure out an effective way of using it.”
I think they’ve been effectively using it for some time now…in their own special way.
Well put, valkilmer. Let’s hope that’s all it ever comes to.
Actually i dread to think what the Kim clan would be capable of if they were squeezed in the same position as Gaddafi
japonymous: actually i had Kos in mind
I seem to recall that others have said it, but I think nuclear threats from NK are, more than anything else, a “plea” in effect, specifically directed to the U.S., which can be expressed colloquially as:
“OK, big guy. Enough is enough. Why the hell do I have to keep reminding you that I am a real thorn in your side capable of some serious pricking, huh? What part of Live and let live don’t you understand? In other words, you go your way and I go mine. For the last time, for heaven’s sake, remember that I can really use that secret weapon of mine if it comes to the pinch. YOU’LL BE SORRY when that happens.”
(In monologue)
‘Gawd, I can’t make it any more crystal clear than that…’
#58 Left Flank
Hello. I apologize for my strange remark about PCH. Let me clarify what I meant. I agree with you that I think KJU is toast-in-waiting. If he really was behind the currency fiasco, then I think his ability to read his situation is limited. He seems particularly ignorant. And I think the probability of a coup is high.
When I mentioned PCH, I did not mean that a coup is unlikely. PCH, of course, became president via a coup. I take back what I wrote above saying the opposite. I do not think a coup can happen during the remainder of the KJI era. I think this is partly a matter of political inertia–of elites waiting for the old dying man to actually die–and partly a matter of KJI’s political ability. I guess what I should have said is that I do not think that a DPRK can mature or “progress,” with or without coup. The DPRK cannot become more competent without radically altering numerous policies. This is very difficult to do without ideological political support. Moreover, one of the consequences of a more competent government must be easier access for more North Koreans to information about the outside world. I think this is inevitable in a wealthier DPRK. And I think greater knowledge of the outside world by more northerners would lead to the collapse of the DPRK due to popular revolt. I think a few million really believe in their state mission. But I doubt 15 million really do.
I just do not believe that any northern communist could allow such changes to occur. I think the elites like their situation. And I think this means that they will fight to keep most of their people oppressed and destitute.
Still, if the DPRK were to “progress,” I think that its inevitably inferior Xiaoping would represent an interesting historical bookend opposite PCH.
…
It’s the middle of night here in California, but I finally got a chance to read the blog post in your link. I’m pretty groggy right now, but I think I agree strongly with much of what Pablo believes and disagree strongly on some key points. And where we disagree, I do not find his or your points unreasonable. On the contrary, I find them very reasonable. I don’t think anyone has a good sense of everything that happened leading to Mubarak’s ouster. And I don’t think anyone can tell what will happen over the next 12 months. Really, we are mostly going by intuition.
As far as I can tell, I think the Egyptians generally have a great deal of awareness of their situation, of the stakes, who many of the significant players are, and what they did. I just do not think anyone has the full picture. I see their sense of anxiety about having to rely on the regime to make democratic reforms, though there is no great appetite for amnesty for the old ergime or their police thugs. I see the leftists, secularists, and the old regime aware of the inevitable political victory the Brotherhood will experience in a true democracy, even should they refrain from running in their first truly free elcction–which is a good political move on their part. I think everyone is aware that the NDP is trying to co-opt the symbols of April 6. I think everyone is aware that a true democratic Egypt will ultimately dissolve the treaty with Israel and open Gaza and make it more difficult for the CIA to do business there. I think everyone sees that the US has clear motives and objectives and some leverage to do something about it.
My reading of Obama is that he will likely use his influence to help avoid the “rearrangement of deckchairs” scenario. Although many conservatives have deplored the loss of authorian stability, what I also see is that Americans generally do notice that authoritarians are much les stable than democratic governments. The stability of democracy is even more pronounced among states with a number of pretty developed set of civil institutions. And when comparing the nature of societies around the world in this regard, Egypt looks pretty decent.
I think the young reformers generally have the right frame of mind. They seem to be hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. They are pestering the military to coninue their revolution. And I think what we are seeing is indeed a revolution via coup happening in slow motion. Yes, what has happened so far is no revolution. This realization is what makes people anxious. But it is the expectations that makes an authoritarian compromise seem less likely. If the military do not satisfactorily provide a democratic framework for political legitimacy and power sharing mechanisms and if they do not relinquish power to civilians, then we are going to see much more than shoes being held up. We are going to see the military lose all their legitimacy confronting the wrath of a population they are going to have to kill. In the end, this is actually the worst thing they can do. But who knows. It might be that I can see the future no better than KJU. ^^;
It looks like there’s Zerg Rush going on against Japonymous. Personally, I think the dude is alright. Hang in there Japonymous.
I thought the likes of Sonagi and Sperwer may appreciate this article:
http://www.michigankoreans.com/news.php?code=&mode=view&num=5430&page=
CactusMcHarris #57,
If you post questions re Korean language here at MH, I’ll try to provide the best answer(s) on Sundays.
Or, if you have a blog and don’t mind leaving a link to it (as some do here) – and if your blog allows readers to comment, I’ll go and debate there.
belair716_
Well, a year ago, nobody thought North Korea would be so brazen as to sink a South Korean ship. After they did, we all said, “Okay, but it’s not like they attacked South Korean soil, or killed civilians . . .”. So next they did just that.
Again, looking just five or six years down the road, North Korea will be ruled by a child general with no experience, with a country on the verge of collapse and/or open revolt. If they have they capability to launch a nuclear strike, one that could solve all their problems overnight*, they would be stupid not to.
* Here’s how they could do it. Send two or three nukes to a second tier city like Daegu or Daejeon. Demand surrender or Seoul is next. Any counterattack, and both Seoul and Busan will be hit. Offer to maintain the complete political and economic autonomy of South Korea, with only two caveats: complete de-militarization of the South, including severance of military ties to Southern Allies and transfer of weapons and equipment to the North; and complete Northern control of the Southern agricultural industry. Would South Korea take this deal? I believe they might, if it means the jaebols can continue intact.
@Granfalloon
I think a nuclear strike by the DPRK terminates China’s credibility in matters on the peninsula. It also shifts world opinion away from suffering NK to toppling it. This would be especially true of the southerners. This would give the US and the ROK political cover to invade. Thus, such a strike seems not to be in the DPRK’s interest.
I think the DPRK may eventually push the ROK too far one day. But I don’t think the mushroom will be the cause.
Why do you think the DPRK would use a nuke?
^I mean, why do you think a nuke can solve their problems?
Leaving aside the gravity of a nuclear exchange on the peninsular and the entirely gravity-free issue of how Korean bubblegum is being flogged in Japan, Gusts of Popular Feeling links to a JoongAng photo of a Korean wildcat.
http://pic.joinsmsn.com/photo/article/article.asp?ctg=1200&total_id=5085050
That’s a cool-looking cat. Anybody ever see one?
@120
Thanks, WK. I left Detroit 47 years ago, and my once annual visits have now become decennial and usually involve the outer suburbs where what remains of my family there live; the last time I was on the lower east side to visit the house where my father lived, we were stopped by two black patrolmen who escorted us back to an area where they said we would be safe. Sounds like things have improved since then. When I lived there, in the city, Detroit was Motortown/Motown, and was a really dynamic, robust and prosperous place – although pretty rough in a working class sort of way – unless one lived in one of the Grosse Pointes. Sounds like they are getting back some of that old spirit: “Detroit is not a city that is kind to the lazy, the selfish, or those who feel entitled…”
@119
“Zerg Rush”?
Do you really want to go there?
Ludicrous idea that Korea should hold a nuke to threat north korea. we dont have to be involved in peace talks but we are not nuking our own race out of extinction. North and South are one race, this is the core value that should never be doubted.
if they can invent a nuke that can destroy the communist party, then i don’t oppose it.
At lollabrats:
The reasons you give don’t seem a sufficient deterrent to me, except for the last one. I don’t think the DPRK cares much about the public, global image of themselves, let alone China. If anything, I think their behavior shows that they want to be seen a rogue threat. Can’t see the North shying away from a nuclear strike for PR reasons.
However, their desire to avoid full-tilt escalation is real. In the scenario I laid out, North Korea would be counting on shocking the South into compliance. This is dubious, but I believe it’s possible. The North would also be counting on the US not invading. There are two good reasons why this is a reasonably good risk for the North to take. First, the US is far less likely to invade without full and joint support from the South. Second, China is probably willing to tolerate US strikes against the North, but they draw the line at US boots on the ground in North Korea. Without the South’s support, the US would have to stage their own ground invasion.
Again, North Korea could solve their food shortage and potential regime legitimacy issues practically overnight. I think the scenario I give, five or six years hence, is eerily plausible.
WK @119: Grazie for the props, and for making me aware of a new expression.
Re: North Korean surprise nuclear strike.
Something like that is so far from anything that’s ever been
done in human history–a dying regime lashing out
and slaughtering, oh, 500,000 people in one go–that trying to predict an outcome
is ridiculous. It would be the mother of “all-in” bets. And, like a good all-in bet,
it would put staggering pressure on the adversary to make a hard, brutal choice.
For what it’s worth, I would order an all-out conventional response, with the clear
message that another nuke going off would mean total nuclear incineration of all of North Korea.
Of course, key here is what the Chinese do. They might respond by nuking North Korea THEMSELVES, then moving in to mop-up and occupy.
500,000? 40% of the country lives within artillery range and more than half within rocket range. They could rain 500+ Scuds filled with B-C and HE weapons on Busan. In a way I think the nukes provide a distraction from their already genocidal capabilities.
I wonder if the Japanese Government manufactured this part of the Japanese wave.
http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/02/outrage-at-japanese.html
A Japanese boy-band with Nazi uniforms. I wonder if they were emulating Korean club owners or marketing tactics with this faux pas.
Just read in the Korean Herald the other day that a
Danish (!) entertainment company wrote “Hoot” and
pitched it to the SNSD braintrust.
Thanks, Denmark, for that insufferable ear-worm of a song.
Please go back to publishing cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad
and making butter cookies and leave my eardrums alone.
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