Over at PBS, senior correspondent Margaret Warner spent a few days in South Korea to report on the Korean education system, the one that President Obama had claimed to be a fan of.
No new revelations or data folks, but just something from a TV news show in the States that generally attracts viewership from the 120 IQ or over crowd.
Bonus: Kid’s boot camp video, brought to you by France24.
{ 111 comments… read them below or add one }
oh, I see a Korea bashing marathon coming on!
don’t know how to spell, bro?
there’s also no marijuana, no cocaine, no meth, no heroine, which is quite prevalent in US grade schools being abused.
Legalize marijuana?
Statistics show that marijuana use among children sky rocketed while states legalized marijuana.
there’s plenty of dambae. Dambae seems to help people study, although it gives them cancer years later.
why do they call them ‘cram’ schools?
WHERE is the cramming?
they study everyday at a blistering pace.
don’t call it CRAM school.
there is NO cramming.
TUTOR, supplementary education, etc is the better word.
Do you call Kaplan a cram school?
stop it already.
well they’re trying to cram as much information as possible into their heads bro.
Those are some ugly kids they interviewed.
Margaret Warner of PBS spent the whole week in South Korea filing reports about the events of the day. I posted all five of the videos PBS did last week on my blog if people want to check them out.
http://www.thewaygookeffect.com/2011/01/pbs-news-hour-spends-week-in-south.html
My son is a 6th grader in a Texas public middle school. He is expected to learn things that I did not learn until high school. In Literature, for example, they are throwing all kinds of stuff at him, including alliteration, analogy, assonance, author’s perspective, external conflict, internal conflict, connotation, denotation, exposition, foreshadowing, meter, onomatopoeia, parody, personal narrative, personification, protagonist, realistic fiction, recurring theme, resolution, rhyme scheme, sound devices, structure, appeal to authority, deductive reasoning, inductive reasoning, ethical appeal, emotional appeal, logical appeal, either/or fallacy, fallacious reasoning, loaded language, overgeneralization, paraphrase, rhetorical question, stereotyping, synthesize, and unsupported inference. I do not think the average 6th grader can understand all that crap. What will be left for them to learn in 7th through 12th grade?
I have to tutor my son two hours a night, five nights a week just to keep up with all his math lessons, and unless other parents do the same, their kids will probably get behind in Math. My son is the top student in his Math class only because I tutor him as often as I do, not because he is a Math genius By the way, here is an example of a 6th grade math problem:
My son is being taught basic Algebra and Geometry, and even Probability, things that I did not learn until high school. We were taught Algebra I in 9th grade.
I think one of the problems in the United States is that we are trying to teach our elementary and middle school students concepts too abstract for them, which means they will have to be retaught those concepts in high school.
Another problem, of course, is that many American students do not spend enough time studying outside of class. If American students were tutored two hours outside of class each day, I think we could catch up with countries like Korea in Reading, Math, and Science because, from what I have seen, American textbooks are a lot better than those used in Korea.
he must be making a statement-stay tuned for further explanation!
re#7 [My son is being taught basic Algebra and Geometry, and even Probability, things that I did not learn until high school. We were taught Algebra I in 9th grade].
Well… I wish I had been taught Algebra and Geometry in grade 6.
I was top of my grade in maths all the way through elementary school – and even in grade 8. When I got to grade 9 my hormones were racing wildly and thats when they started teaching us Algebra and Geometry.
For some reason I just couldn’t do it – and went from top of the grade in maths down to almost the bottom.
I still hate maths now because of not learning Algebra and Geometry until grade 9.
re# Kid’s boot camp video – as Sgt Lee Shin said “Korean children have no respect for other people”.
I agree, most Korean children are downright selfish and have no respect for others or others property. Most Korean parents think their children are angels though.
I don’t think 5 days and 4 nights in the boot camp is enough time – should be longer.
leave it to traash to take a shit on the fun.
did I stop you from cumming on this thread?
Pat Buchanan, paraphrasing Steve Sailer, showed that American education is a lot better than the overall numbers seem to indicate, but only if one if willing to think outside the box of politically correct discourse:
“Asian-Americans outperform all Asian students except for Shanghai-Chinese. White Americans outperform students from all 37 predominantly white nations except Finns, and U.S. Hispanics outperformed the students of all eight Latin American countries that participated in the tests.
“African-American kids would have outscored the students of any sub-Saharan African country that took the test (none did) and did outperform the only black country to participate, Trinidad and Tobago, by 25 points.”
Well said, #12. In the same vein,
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/12/us-education-is-much-better-than-you-think/68635/
And as Plato said, “Except in the case of some rarely gifted nature there never will be a good man who has not from his childhood been used to play amid things of beauty and make of them a joy and a study”.
Ok, this is a silly way to look at things for a number of reasons.
Let me tackle the first sentence. Asian-Americans – like Asian-Australians, Asian-Candians etc – are relatively smart, because western countries operate immigration meritocracies. You often have to have a degree or be considered to be a specialist in a field to be allowed to immigrate, so said immigrants tend to be smarter, on average, than the average folk they’ve left behind, and the average folk in their new country. Also, immigrant parents often migrate specifically to educate their children in the west, and therefore drive their children to study much more.
So is it any wonder that Asian-Americans outperform all Asian students? They’re the cream of said Asian countries.
Second sentence:
What a ludicrous statement. What’s a “predominantly white nation?” And what is the point of comparing the average marks of white American students to the average marks of other countries’ entire ethnic student bodies? By “predominantly white nations” are we talking Canada, Australia, Britain, France etc? Because we’re just as multicultural – in some cases, even more so – than America.
To flip it around, what would happen if we compared the average marks of white Canadian students to the average marks of all American students? And what’s the point in doing that?
See my first point. This doesn’t prove that the US education system is good, it just means that the most motivated and/or intelligent people tend to migrate to the US. You can bet your bottom dollar that Canadian hispanics outperform Mexican hispanics for the same reason.
It’s no secret that the infrastructure and educational resources of said countries are abysmal. Not a great benchmark.
craash @9:
Thank God America has such shining examples of virtuous youth like Jared Lee Loughner, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, etc., to go show those selfish Korean kids where they can stuff it! It’s plainly obvious that you have no experience dealing with any children anywhere in the world to make that kind of comparison (and holding yourself up to be a shining ideal does not count), so we’ll just assume your being a racist as usual.
Education has been suffering in all western countries for some time. My theory: women’s lib.
Back in the 50s, the only profession deemed fit for women was teaching. So the very best and brightest female minds were in the classrooms. Think about it. Imagine if, in 2011, for some weird reason, all female judges, lawyers, doctors, accountants and scientists suddenly decided to retrain and become teachers. The quality of teaching would skyrocket. Come the 60s, 70s and 80s and women began to look elsewhere. Teaching suffered.
The American decline has been even more precipitous than most, because US teaching wages are comparatively low. A teacher in my local area here in Australia, with 10 years experience, gets paid $85,000 USD a year. It’s something similar in Ontario, Canada (my wife’s province). By comparison, US teaching salaries are lower. Naturally, this discourages many bright and talented would-be teachers from entering the profession.
The problem with this discourse, even if it is just a joke, is that it’s illogical. Outperform on what and in what subject? Nations do no universally outperform other nations in all subjects all the time. American students typically excel in social studies and other qualitative subjects, but also rank in lowest quartile for math and science.
My comment is stuck in moderation, but I agree with 8675309:
It’s a ludicrous statement. What’s a “predominantly white nation?” And what is the point of comparing the average marks of white American students to the average marks of other countries’ entire ethnic student bodies? By “predominantly white nations” are we talking Canada, Australia, Britain, France etc? Because we’re just as multicultural – in some cases, even more so – than America.
@#16
I didn’t know you were Steven Levitt. I like your books.
8675309 really has a stick up somewhere about Americans… Has to take three mentally ill examples out of the tens of millions of normal Americans to show how bad we are?
Dang… I’d recommend getting a girlfriend and going to church; but that might interrupt his soju and tambay meditations…
The Finns have a predominantly white nation and higher test scores than the US with fewer dollars spent per child per year.
Maybe it’s actually monoculturalism that helps, not multiculturalism…
I think some people on this forum do not realize how good the US education system could be if parents just spent more time tutoring their children in the evening. As I mentioned above, the US has great textbooks, but it also has good classrooms and learning resources. I think the reason Asian immigrant students do so well in US schools is not because their parents are college graduates, but because the students and their parents bring with them to the US the concept of also studying outside of classroom.
My son and his classmates are evaluated every three weeks, and when a student’s grade drops below a certain level, the school provides free tutoring. They also have a ninth period, which is an extra period at the end of each day that students must attend if they do not complete their classroom assignments. Instead of having to do incompleted assignments as homework, this ninth period allows students to complete their assignments in the classroom with teacher supervision and guidance.
The school also stresses four principles to ensure good classroom discipline. Those principles are Responsibility, Respect, Successfulness, and Safety. The “respect” principle does not just refer to the students showing respect to the teachers and other students, but also the teachers showing respect to the students. Students who observe these principles are awarded slips of paper called “Panter Paws” that they can put in a central basket for weekly drawings for pens, mechanical pencils and other school-related articles.
Also, I pick up my son everyday from school and have never seen students smoking on school property or off. I have also not seen any bullying going on, and that is probably because the school has a strict bullying policy. My son has also told me that he has never seen any students smoking or any bullying at school. That surprises me because there was smoking and bullying going on when I was in junior high school.
Again, if American parents just spent more time tutoring their children in the evenings, I think the rankings of American students compared to other countries would jump.
And actually, PBS only attracts people who think firing Juan Williams was a good idea because he was not like the rest of the anchors… Not necessarily “those with an IQ over 120″ as falsely asserted…
gbevers, you are right. The child’s most important education is based on how important his/her schooling is seen by his/her parents. If the parents don’t take an interest, the child learns that it is unimportant and simple does what is needful to feed their own ego.
The child with actively-involved parents has an overwhelming advantage over the child without. And no amount of other people’s money coerced from taxpayers and funneled into “charter schools” or “magnet schools” or “no child left behind” can overcome this…
@17: “Outperform on what and in what subject? ”
I neglected to provide the link and the information that it was the “Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) tests of the reading, math and science skills of 15-year-olds in developing and developed countries” (http://buchanan.org/blog/who-owns-the-future-4587 / http://www.vdare.com/sailer/101219_pisa.htm).
hoju_saram,
Perceptive comments about women’s lib, but follow the links above and you find that those country’s that are more Multikulti (as the Germans say) than the US (discounting Asians) do worse, by and large.
Intelligence is largely a product of genes. There’s not much you can do to improve on it, but many ways you can mess it up. Koreans are at the top (http://orientem.blogspot.com/2006/09/smart-koreans.html) with other Asians, but I suspect the standard deviation is lower; in the West, Aspies and others on the Autism spectrum folks like Newton can make a name for themselves, whereas in Asia, with its emphasis on social harmony, such genius is lost.
gbevers might have a point, eventually a school system is as good as the dedication the attending students commit, what makes Asia succesful is that students study hard (and not only pleasant and interesting subjects but mostly useful ones)
That boot camp was pretty soft. They probably toned it down for the cameras.
gbevers, it sounds like your son goes to a good school in a well off district. I’m sure most here who grew up in America went to similar schools. But don’t make the mistake of thinking that it’s representative of American education.
No, TinyFlowers, my son goes to a mediocre school that is just a little below the state average on state assessment scores. His school is an average school, at least in Texas.
Our schools are not the problem; the problem is that many parents think their only responsibility is getting their kids to school on time and asking them if they have any homework when they get home. If they do not have any homework, many parents just let them go off and do whatever they want to do. That is not enough, just as it is not enough just to attend classes in college. Students also have to study outside of school, regardless of whether they have homework, and parents need to spend some time tutoring their kids after school.
You sound like the teacher’s union… I tend to agree for the most part. Parents are the problem.
setnaffa @20:
Setnaffa forgot to mention that I am an American. And as far as using only “mentally ill” examples of American youth, there is no evidence to suggest that Loughner, Kleebold, and Dylan were ever diagnosed with a mental illness or ever had contact with mental health professionals. (A layman’s evaluation of someone’s mental health is about as good as yours or mine.)
Does anyone know where that “mountain” lookout with the locks the students wrote on is in Seoul? I’ve never heard of it until now.
Also, interesting to note that the PBS story didn’t say anything at all about the quality of education in S.Korea’s public schools. Now there’s a story! I am with gbevers that if parents in Western countries invested so heavily in after-school institutes and academies, those national averages and test scores would go way up too.
It also might also make a difference if US parents finacially supported their children until they marry at age 30 or 35, paying all their cell phone bills, giving a steady flow of spending money, paying for university, buying them a car and paying for gas and insurance (if they are well-off), paying for their credit cards which they racked up buying five-dollar coffees at Starbucks.
Yup, I could have done a lot better in high school and uni if my mommy and daddy paid all my bills too.
I’m in with gbevs on this, and painful as it is to admit, tinyflowers. Parents make the difference.
My school system was nothing special at all. The teachers currently are amongst the lowest paid in Indiana, and Indiana is no high-flyer in education. But opportunities were always there. It was the combination of my parents pushing me and my wicked intelligence that has made me to scholar that I am today.
exit86 @33:
It’s at Namsan.
As a parent of a child in a US public school, Gerry, you get it. In response to perceptions that US education is lagging, states have made their curricula more rigorous. Part of my daily instruction includes reteaching math skills to second graders. The curriculum is so busy with different concepts and skills from counting forward and back, skip counting, growing patterns, probability, congruent and symmetrical shapes, addition and subtraction with regrouping, word problems, measurement, and everything else I can’t remember at the moment. It’s easy for kids to fall behind, and when they do, it’s hard to catch them up. I partner with the classroom teachers to help our ESOL students master 2nd grade math. The classroom teachers stick to the pacing guide while I pull lower performing ESOL kids out of social studies to play catch-up. I’m not thrilled with pulling them out of another content area, but it’s the only time I can see them, and social studies is easier to make up later than math with its sequential skills. Not only our ESOL students from non-English speaking homes, but many of our poor students from English-speaking homes do not get any instructional support at home. Some don’t even get their basic needs met, like prepared meals, seasonally appropriate clean clothes, and adequate sleep. I think we US public school teachers work harder than our counterparts in Korea but have less to show for it in international comparisons because our students on average need so much more from us.
Have you ever thought of moving to a better funded, higher performing/more affluent school district? Putting good teachers who actually give a damn, in poorly funded school districts (e.g., the disaster called “Teach for America”) where basically unmotivated, uneducated and under-earning parents don’t give a crap about their own childrens’ educations is like throwing good money after bad. The only solution in America is to go up, and up, and up, and up….
Bottom line: Teachers are in a no-win situation if they can’t get cooperation from the parents.
A generally accepted ratio is 70% genes / 30% environment. 30% is significant. Prenatal, infant, and early childhood diet and experiences can raise or lower IQ. East Asian traditional diets are high in brain-friendly fish, and East Asian parents have few children, usually spaced out by 2-3 years, giving the mother’s body time to replenish nutrients. Mothers or caregivers are early teachers, interacting with their children to develop language and thinking skills. Children permanently damaged through prenatal exposure to maternal substance abuse are virtually non-existent in East Asia.
here in California, we used to rank number one in the nation 30 years ago but now, we are 49. what’s changed in the last 30 years? answer: the Latino and his disinterest in education. that’s the real reason test scores have fallen in international rankings.
NO. I myself grew up in a working poor home although I was fortunate enough to attend schools in a district largely populated by lower middle-class and middle-class families. The kids I work with are GREAT, and I feel lucky to be their teacher. They come to school happy because they are loved and well-cared for at home by their Mexican and Central American immigrant parents. I used education to climb into the middle-class, and I hope I can help some of them do the same. My district isn’t rolling in money, but they spend wisely, investing more in quality professional development to train their teachers to teach better rather than buying fancy equipment or the latest educational program.
You hit the nail on the head pawi. I hate to say it, but conscientious students cannot get an education where gangbangers and dope dealers run the schoolyards. Case in point: A couple of years ago, one little African-American boy who was attending a Chicago public school in the southside of Chicago was jumped and beaten to death on his way home by fellow students from his own school. Reason? Apparently, b/c he was straight “A” student and was making all of his classmates (predominately black as well) look bad.
Now take that same kid, and move him up just 30 miles north straight up Lake Shore Drive and Sheridan Road, to the toney North Shore of Chicago where I was raised and went to school. Put that same kid in the same public schools that I went to, including the same high school that Rahm Emmanuel, Donald Rumsfeld, and yours truly are alumni from (a school district which also has one of the highest per capita pubic school spending per student in the nation), and I guarantee you that he would not only be alive and well today, but well on his way to college. (And not that it proves my point, but out of the 1,073 kids I graduated high school with, among the standard distribution of whites, Asians and Jews, there were only two blacks — and if there were any hispanics — I can’t recall seeing any — they usually identified themselves as white.)
#7,
Actually, that was grade 3 or 4 math at my school…and we did everything in the metric system.
PS. I haven’t done this in years, but…just for fun, is the answer 17.6 feet? 40-27.5=12.5. So, every time you move 12.5 feet closer to the pole from where the girl is standing, you add 5.5 feet to its height. You’re left with 2.5 feet after you’ve done it twice. Knowing 12.5 is roughly 2.27 times that of 5.5, you must add 1.1 to the total of 3×5.5. There you have it, 17.6.
so are you saying that kid is going to turn into either a corrupt political hack or a long-winded internet blowhard bro?
“A couple of years ago, one little African-American boy who was attending a Chicago public school in the southside of Chicago was jumped and beaten to death on his way home by fellow students from his own school. Reason? Apparently, b/c he was straight “A” student and was making all of his classmates (predominately black as well) look bad.”
That’s terrible.
I can’t imagine anything like that happening where I grew up in Canada. It was a very healthy learning environment. We all celebrated the individual achievements of our classmates.
SomeguyinKorea (#42),
Your answer is correct. It is an indirect measure problem that can be solved using a proportion calculation.
The height of the pole is the unknown, so it can be written using the variable “h.” The height of the man is 5.5 ft.; therefore, the ratio of the two heights would be h:5 (h/5.5). The length of the pole’s shadow is 40 ft. Since the man is standing 27.5 feet from the pole and his shadow ends at the end of the pole’s shadow, you can substract 27.5 from 40 to get the length of the man’s shadow (12.5 ft.), meaning the ratio of the two lengths would be 40:12.5 (40/12.5). Now, you have the proportion “h is to 5.5 as 40 is to 12.5 (h/5.5 = 40/1.25). Next, you cross multiply and solve for “h”: 12.5h = 40 * 5.5 (220). h = 17.6
I am surprised that you learned to solve such problems in 3rd or 4th grade because my son has just learned to solve such problems in 6th grade. Also, he did not learn to solve those kinds of problems in the Philippines, where he attended school through 5th grade. Moveover, I do not remember solving those kinds of problems even in middle school. Where did you go to school?
gbevers, you keep (or kept) a blog about Korean language, no? what’s the address again?
nevermind, I shoulda googled first.
Sonagi (#36),
Yes, the curriculum today is much more rigorous than when I went to school. I spend two hours, 5 nights a week tutoring my son, and I can barely keep up with what they are studying.
I agree that US teachers are not getting the credit they deserve. There may be a relatively small percentage of teachers not doing their job, but the real problem is that parents are not doing theirs.
My son is doing well in school only because I tutor him. I feel sorry for those students whose parents are either unable or too lazy to tutor their kids.
I have not been doing anything with my blog lately, cmm, because I have been spending most of my time thinking about my son’s education and writing about his achievements and my concerns on Facebook. Anyway, the blog address is below:
http://koreanlanguagenotes.blogspot.com/
cmm, visit his blog so that you can see the other side of gerry. you know, the one who loves korea. his blog is almost poetry.
it’s so obvious that black and latino youth are more interested in being cool than getting a good education. the decline of the american school system isn’t because of whites or asians; it’s because of black and latino underachievers who hail from cultures that do not value education. that’s the un-pc truth of the matter.
Sonagi the 2 statements seem like they’re contradicting each other a bit, now i i will cut some slack for the lack of proper meals and adequate clothing due to material poverty (even if i find it a bit incredible to believe there are people in America poor to the point of being unable to afford a warm, cheap Walmart coat) but lack of adequate sleep ? How that fit with your portrait of family-oriented, caring and loving Latino families ? To me it sounds more like party-ass parents too busy with their shit to give a damn. Even in my lowest days i never failed to put my son in a warm, clean bed with a goodnight kiss by 9 pm and that’s the bare minimum. If these parents are unable to do the same they’re total trash
re#41 (8675309)
Now who is being racist as usual? calling people of African-American decent “blacks”.
Thats just dirty!
I am not American, nor Canadian, nor British so I don’t care for the example of three messed up American kids you gave back in post #15.
The reason I mentioned [“I agree, (with Sgt Lee, Shin that) most Korean children are downright selfish and have no respect for others or others property.”] is because Korean people in Korea continually make it their mission to inform foreigners that “In Korea, (unlike wester countries) Korean children are very polite and respectful to parents, teachers and elders”.
So, when an ex-Korean-marine states that they are very disrespectful, that is another myth busted.
gbevers: now i get it: the 2 shadows are segments that juxtapose one on top of the other ending in the same point that’s how you can get the 12.5 ft. through subtraction….i was totally confused cos i thought it was a problem involving a scalene triangle…honestly the only complicated thing about this is the very confusing language used. I can confirm that introducing fractions (and with it simple urn-based simple probability problems), proportions an such (and now that i’m at it triangle theory like the Pythagorean theorem) happen normally between grades 4 and 6
My son tutor told me she taught last summer in the UK in some kind of summer school, students were from all over the world…she told me the Koreans were the best behaved while for example the Poles, in her own words, were beyond good and evil.
Littl shits are common everywhere, Korea doesn’t have a very high concentration of them
I really don’t care – Kids are just kids – and its natural for them to be disrespectful at time and to be wild at times.
But, in my home country we acknowledge it and tell people – that kids here “act like little mongrels”.
Korea however, continual not only publishes it in travel guides and brochures but continual inform foreigners that Korean children are always polite, respectful and obedient towards parents, teacher and elders.
That is what I am getting at. One Korean man on the [boot camp vid] stated they were not, and that is why I mentioned that I agree with him. I wish more truth was spoken here – just like back home. No use telling lies to foreigners who visit Korea, because they will go back home feeling like everything was a pack of lies.
If Korean children are disrespectful, etc etc – then ADMIT IT!
“Where did you go to school?”
In Canada, but, admittedly that sort of stuff might have been part of the supplementary exercises my math teachers handed out to keep me and my equally inclined classmates busy after we’d completed every module within the first couple of weeks of class.
PS. Let’s just say I’m pretty proud of the fact my son could count to 20 before he was one year old and that he taught himself how do to multiplication and division in grade 1 (he’s even better at math than I was).
With a tag such as 8675309 I never would have guessed you were a Trevian…too top 40. Too young and ethnic to be an Indian… a western Wilmette cowboy? That’s pratically Niles. No way that qualifies as North Shore. You wouldn’t know Sarkis, would you?
…Would have never guessed you were a Trevian…
Umm, back in 1986 when I graduated, we were still ALL about Top 40 1980′s fare. (It was only after that whore Liz Phair graduated and made it bigtime in the late-90′s that New Trier got this undeserved reputation for being an alternative hotbed, which it definitely never was previously.) In fact, my freshman class back in ’82-’83 was the first class to make the West Campus (formerly Cowboy territory) an exclusive frosh-only campus — ahh, those were the days! (We were actually a lil’ bit lonely though.) For sophomore year, however, we all thankfully migrated over to the cowpen that is the East Campus. (Ours was the first all-Trevian class. My older sister, who graduated three years before me, spent three years as an “Indian”, and her last year as a “Trevian”.)
Niles? Umm, where the hell are you from? Niles is BFE! So is Skokie. Hell, the only time we ever sashayed into Evanston, was for the exclusive purpose of beating the crap out of ETHS in football. Not only did we consider Evanston a ‘ghetto’, the only places we ever frequented there were (in this order): 1) The Spot; 2) Burger King (by Northwestern U.); 3) Giordano’s'; 4) Tom Thumb; 5) Chandler’s. Nothing else there was amenable to underaged kids back then.
WTF? What is that supposed to mean? And where exactly did you go to high school?
I was referring to children from English-speaking homes in the second sentence that you quoted. A few of our Hispanic children show signs of neglect, but their situation is not nearly as severe as some of our children with American parents. The lack of warm clothing is more a problem of conscientiousness than poverty. Items of gently used clothing can be bought at our local Goodwill for $2-$6. I myself shop there and have found new or almost new garments at garage sale prices. Our school also collects coats to give to children who need one.
Ditto for meals. During the school year, poor children get two guaranteed meals a day, breakfast and lunch, at school. In some school districts, an evening meal is served, too. I get a reality check about what constitutes poverty in the US every time I have lunch with my students. Half of them have extra snacks on their free lunch trays. One wonders if the parents would be so willing to shell out for nachos, cookies, and granola bars if they actually had to pay for their kids’ lunches. It’s not just the money, but the overfeeding that leads to obesity. I wish schools would not sell anything other than fruit for alacarte, but it’s a money maker for the meal program, which operates on its own revenues.
Sonagi: i misread it, my fault
This is interesting, close to Milano some local school ordered last year to suspend lunches to the kids whose parents were realy behind with the school cafeteria payments, mind you that if you’re below a certain income threshold you get the meals for free. This people they were basically too ignorant, too lazy, too stupid or a combo of the above to make sure their kids were properly fed.
I’m sure all these kids parents, if not the kids themselves (elementary school age) had cellphones and i bet my 2 dimes that the kids you refer to have cable tv at home.
What is killing the West is not the financial crisis, it’s the fact tons of people are trailer trash in their soul
My wording was vague, so I’ll take the blame for your misinterpretation, Yangachi. I don’t know which kids have cell phones since they’re not allowed to bring them to school, but a fair number of kids eating breakfast pizzas and French toast in the morning are dropped off by parents driving large recent-model trucks, SUVs, and vans. One SUV is equipped with a DVD-player to entertain the kid while he’s being chauffeured to school. A lot of vehicles have vanity plates with a family member’s name. One fiscally savvy “poor “family uses savings from free school meals to fund the family’s annual month-long Christmas vacation to Mexico. I am not making this up. I do see parents driving older, banged-up vehicles. I would guess that either they send a large chunk of their income out of the country or they haven’t figured out how to game the system. A silver lining to our present economic woes is that they may force our government to get leaner and fitter. Even Tea Party Republicans are calling for defense budget cuts, sweet music to my ears.
CNN: “Florida lawmaker wants teachers to grade parents”
Grading parents sounds like a good idea, but what happens if the parent fails? I think failing parents should be forced to attend parenting classes on the Weekend or something. Also, there may be some parents who would like to help their children with their homework, but who are unable to because of their lack of education. Maybe there could be some special classes for parents and students to attend together.
Terrible idea for teachers to grade parents. We are firm with parents when we need to be, but we generally try to stay on friendly, cooperative terms for the sake of the children, who benefit when parents and teachers can support each other. My school offers parenting classes. Most of the attendees are parents flagged by Child Protective Services. A parent has to be criminally neglectful or abusive to get on their radar. I would like to see parenting classes in high school and included in GED programs. Many of the communication and interaction skills learned can be transferred to relationships with adults.
True true. And unlike Sonagi, I am not impressd with people who drive “large recent-model trucks, SUVs, and vans…equipped with a DVD-player”. Where I come from, flashy, expensive cars are proof positive that uneducated trailer trash have just rolled into town. Also, driving a $52,000 HUMMER is usually indicative of someone who would rather spend their money on flash goods than sending their offspring to a good college. (I recommend you read “Class” by Paul Fussel.)
Impressed? My comment piggybacked on Yangachi’s observations in #63. Note the parentheses around the word “poor” in my comment. Far from being impressed, I am disgusted to see my tax dollars used to overfeed children whose parents drive vehicles that cost twice as much as mine.
I should rephrase that: I am disgusted to see my tax dollars used to overfeed processed food to children…
Pawi,
I guess you are so blinded by your anger/xenophobia/chip on your shoulder when anyone criticizes Korea or Koreans that you can’t see how you are guilty of your own bashing.
“oh, I see a Korea bashing marathon coming on!”
“here in California, we used to rank number one in the nation 30 years ago but now, we are 49. what’s changed in the last 30 years? answer: the Latino and his disinterest in education. that’s the real reason test scores have fallen in international rankings.”
“it’s so obvious that black and latino youth are more interested in being cool than getting a good education. the decline of the american school system isn’t because of whites or asians; it’s because of black and latino underachievers who hail from cultures that do not value education. that’s the un-pc truth of the matter.”
You are such a hypocrite and a knee-jerk reactionary.
Any infatuation with the Korean system by Americans should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Koreans are obsessed with education, obviously, but not one of their colleges is in the top 10 globally if I remember correctly. And let’s not even get into the whole deal of how poorly Koreans are generally when it comes to English despite the hagwon system.
This all leads to a huge, “What gives?” Why is it that Korean study so much and yet seem to get so little for it? It’s a huge mystery….but obviously something is working with the American system despite its problems given I don’t see Korea producing its own Mark Zuckerberg of late.
I wouldn’t necessarily brag about it, if the biggest engineering feat of a 311 million people country is a company which is a cool social network (a concept which is now something like 12 years old) and a mediocre advertising tool (of dubious profitability) quite frankly i’d be a bit worried.
Current accounts don’t lie, if you wanna measure the real, fundamental strenght of a country, check their current account numbers.
Lately the biggest degree of creativity shown by the West is in bending accounting rules and fudging statistics
‘This all leads to a huge, “What gives?” Why is it that Korean study so much and yet seem to get so little for it? It’s a huge mystery….but obviously something is working with the American system despite its problems given I don’t see Korea producing its own Mark Zuckerberg of late.’
this has got to be the most moronic statement i’ve seen on this board. korea, in your little lifetime, has gone from poor to rich. fervor for education has reaped the koreans great rewards, junior.
btw, i get so tired of hearing about creativity. most people in most parts of the world are not going to be bill gates and don’t need creativity. most people in this world need to know how to do simple math and read a set of instructions and follow them. but you keep patting yourself on the back as your house burns in flames, junior. k?
one more thing. you folks better be very careful in thinking that asians will NEVER be creative. you better be careful with that one. you thought they couldn’t catch up and look what’s happened. anyway, you folks go ahead and keep on holding that blanket of creativity. i know you need to keep warm.
‘asians aren’t creative’???
I think all the “WTF this is cool”, stuff comes out of Japan.
When people start with the “asians aren’t creative” crap, I’m reminded of the “Tortoise and the Hare” story from Aesop. Yes, the Tortoise (or Korea) was a slow mover, but the Hare (America) is on the edge of being surpassed.
Let’s face it. Besides ShamWows™ and boner pills, Ameicans just don’t make anything anymore. (Ironically, ShamWows are actually made in Germany.) While America is wallowing in its own self pity while foreclosing on worthless real estate in is decaying and drug-riddled cities, Koreans are rebuilding the world from the ground up from places like Africa to Abu Dhabi to Songdo City. Even in the traditionally racist Deep South, Koreans are heroes in places like West Point, Georgia where KIA just built a new factory there. And what are American companies doing in Korea? (If another Amway™, HerbaLife™, or any other American-branded multi-level marketer knocks on my parents’ door in Seoul, I’m going to scream!!!)
Deep South isn’t as racist as you were taught it was. I personally found the midwest the most racist of them all.
America still leads the world in good stuff being made that everyone wants.
All the apple stuff is American stuff made by an American, Steve Jobs.
Microsoft is American. I’m gonna call that XBox American.
F-22 Raptor is American.
All the best weapons are American.
Labor Unions forced the shut down of Detroit and outsourcing.
Korea is still working on a hybrid or an electric car.
America already has’em.
albeit, not selling well.
America is the best.
Now, send a detailed, itemized bill to China to pay up. That will solve the US deficit problem. Vote me for President, Senate, House. Whichever you choose. I will run on this platform and this platform alone.
wjk,
-I’ve lived in the Midwest and I lived in several different parts of the Deep South when I was in the Army. That said, I stand by my original statement: The Deep South is a bastion of racism, ignorance and xenophobia.
- F-22 is a bad example of American industry (only the USAF can purchase the F-22) and its exorbitant cost is bankrupting the government.
-Apple™ software may have been designed by Steven Jobs, but the hardware is made in China.
-When was the last time you bought Microsoft Software?
-Ford Hybrids are still in the first generation models, and GM is is still playing catch up.
-America is very good at somethings, especially software, marketing and other professional services, but the vast majority of consumer goods (not military goods that only U.S.-friendly countries can buy), are made in Asia. Why? Because America no longer makes things that normal, non-military human beings want.
-The last thing we need is some fob like wjk running for public office.
8675309,
Apple’s hardware is assembled in China and Taiwan. It’s parts come from Korea, Europe, Japan and the U.S. Often times, once these parts are integrated in China they become part of our trade deficit with China, which is a strange accounting quirk.
Of the course the fact that the US has been more or less completely open to Korean investment, and indeed (in the early days) has often discriminated against its own producers in order to advantage Korean ones), while Korea has been more or less protectionist, for the past 60 years, plays no role in this.
Sperwer,
Let’s cut the years back a bit. Yes Korea was protectionistic since I’d say the late 60′s or 70′s, but would any American company have been interested? Korea had a shitty economy up until say the mid 80′s, but more likely the early 90′s. For most of those 60 year Korea’s economy (and markets) wasn’t too interesting to any body. The U.S. didn’t really raise a fuss until say the early 90′s. They were just happy that Korea was getting on their own feet and not needing foreign aid to be a bulwark against Communism.
I’d agree that Hyundai/KIA’s investments in GA and AL are their attempt to avoid militant Korean auto unions not because they had warm and fuzzy feelings about said locations. However, you can’t deny that they have moved into depressed and ignored parts of the U.S. and their presence is a welcomed addition to the people who live there.
WangKon:
So basically, besides the risible (and mistaken) view that in the early years no one was interested in investing poor little Korea, your defense of Korean protectionism is that the industries built on it now are providing a little trickle-down to the sons and grandsons of the people who lost their jobs when the US manipulated the destruction of the industries that employed them in order to promote the development of light manufacturing in Korea, especially by advantaging the textile industry, while Korea effectively diminished the opportunities of compensatory US job growth in more technologically sophisticated and higher value-added sectors through its various formal and informal protectionist schemes. Were you educated by Jesuits?
Sperwer,
Well…. the only jobs, from the 60′s to the 80′s, that Korea took away from Americans were textile jobs. But Korea wasn’t the only culprit. I’d say West African and Latin Americans were doing it too.
Other then that, there wasn’t much.
Are Koreans currently taking away a lot of U.S. auto jobs? I’d hazard to guess that the Japanese did most of the damage there. I’d also hazard to guess that the U.S. auto industry did some self inflicted damage. Did Koreans take away U.S. electronics jobs? Again, the Japanese did most of the damage there.
Korea is opening it’s market to the U.S. at the right time. Now, after it’s fully recovered from the Crisis of 98 and the Great Recession of 08. Plus, it’s got more to offer the U.S. since it’s now a trillion dollar economy. Opening up the market in the 70′s would have not registered a blimp, given that Korea’s economy was the size of a mid-African country at that time.
Clearly Korea has more to offer now – there’s no argument there; just as clearly, Korea is still doing everything it can, commensurate with keeping up appearances for the relatively uninformed, to deter the US from getting the (full) benefit of its competitive advantages, while continuing to take advantage of the continung US policy of maintaining a relatively open market.
Pawi,
You said “this has got to be the most moronic statement i’ve seen on this board. korea, in your little lifetime, has gone from poor to rich. fervor for education has reaped the koreans great rewards, junior”
This statement is so simplistic and nationalistic, that it also qualifies as moronic. Korea went from rich to poor basically because they had an export market (USA) for their cheap goods, didn’t have to spend much for their defense budget (thanks USA), imported technology and experts (mostly from the USA) to help their infant industries, and were able to keep wages and unionization at bay (thanks to dictators supported by USA). As long as they cried wolf (threat of communism in S. Korea) the USA gave Korea favorable trade policies.
You said “btw, i get so tired of hearing about creativity. most people in most parts of the world are not going to be bill gates and don’t need creativity. most people in this world need to know how to do simple math and read a set of instructions and follow them. but you keep patting yourself on the back as your house burns in flames, junior. k?”
To be a leader in any industry, you have to be an innovator. Relying on cost as your competitive advantage will not get you far in the world economy. Korea’s strength is in organizational/human resource management. USA’s strengths are in innovation and marketing. Which competitive advantage is more important in the globalized economy? Keep holding on to your blanket of ethnic pride.
By the way, I’m surprised there aren’t more Koreans with broken arms because they are always patting themselves on the back, every chance they get.
Here’s a list of some US innovations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_inventions_%281946%E2%80%931991%29
Sorry, but Korea is not an innovating country, but that doesn’t mean they can never be.
‘This statement is so simplistic and nationalistic, that it also qualifies as moronic. Korea went from rich to poor basically because they had an export market (USA) for their cheap goods, didn’t have to spend much for their defense budget (thanks USA), imported technology and experts (mostly from the USA) to help their infant industries, and were able to keep wages and unionization at bay (thanks to dictators supported by USA). As long as they cried wolf (threat of communism in S. Korea) the USA gave Korea favorable trade policies.’
yeah, most of the world had access to american markets. koreans are responsible for their success. how’s that for nationalism?
Most of the world did not have as much access to american markets when Korea was up an coming. Re-read what I said. Koreans owe a lot to the USA. Koreans did work hard, but those factors I mentioned above are also key. On behalf of Americans, you’re welcome Korea.
How’s that for Nationalism?
koreans don’t owe the us anything, my friend. that debt was paid with 5000 korean lives in vietnam and 3k troops in iraq. in any event, most of the world had access to american markets. koreans are resposnible for their success. now, i’ll ask you a question so that i can shut you the puck up:
if america is responsible for korea’s success, is it also responsible for korea’s failures?
yeah, that’s what i thought. STFU!
NEXT!
Specifically, what were the restrictions that other countries had to face which Korea was able to bypass?
I said those factors were key factors, not that they were the only ones. USA was their export market. Read it again.
You’re welcome.
It’s a simple question.
Majority of the foreign aid that provided the capital for the miracle came from the United States. Aid in the form of money and goods from the military PX (Postal Exchange) were constantly flowing into South Korea since World War II. Official sources indicate that $12 billion of the American treasury went to South Korea in the years 1945-1965. By 1960, South Korea had $100 per capita income or an estimate of $2 billion of national income.[6] A high point in the foreign aid came in 1957, where a whopping $383 million dollars were provided by the U.S. Money also sloshed in as military aid — $400 million in the year 1957. Imports from the U.S were stunning as well. By the end of 1950, As much as five-sixths of all Korean imports came from the U.S. During the industrialization phase, Korea borrowed money from the world, most of which was from the United States. Towards the end of 1970s, Korea became one of the four biggest debtors in the world. Foreign aid and loans gave the needed capital to catalyze the heavy industrialization witnessed as the Miracle on the Han River.
Nice copy and paste job but you still haven’t answered the question.
Other countries faced tariffs and trade restrictions, especially countries from the eastern bloc or neutral nations. The US was willing to take all of Korea’s exports with little tariffs.
BTW,
I am not saying Koreans didn’t work hard, what I’m saying is it’s not as simple as nationalists such as Pawi think “We are Korean, We did it all by ourselves, Roar!”
‘Other countries faced tariffs and trade restrictions, especially countries from the eastern bloc or neutral nations. The US was willing to take all of Korea’s exports with little tariffs.’
this is a small number of countries. most of the free world or semi free world had access to american markets as most nations in said worlds had mfn. as for foreign aid and loans, korea paid it back often earlier than expected. look, don’t try tell me koreans aren’t responsible for their success. you just look foolish and like some angry expat who got offered a fork one too many times.
Pawi,
You’re nationalism just doesn’t quit. I gave credit to Korea’s hard work. But you just refuse to see it any other way. Korea got help along the way.
You sound like a foolish Kyopo who has a chip on his shoulder towards the white man.
Mango, so you expect random Koreans on the internet to thank some young punk ass American like yourself who had nothing to do with Korea’s success, just because you happen to be an American? Isn’t that the same kind of nationalism that you’re decrying here?
Koreans have plenty of gratitude towards the people who actually contributed. But if you think that same gratitude will be extended to some internet punk puffing out his chest claiming all of Korea’s successes, think again.
I was being sarcastic, and I meant it towards Pawi.
‘You sound like a foolish Kyopo who has a chip on his shoulder towards the white man.’
ah, the standard retort of any white guy who has to suffer an asian one telling him to stfu. so cliche.
Ah the standard retort of a frustrated asian assuming that everyone who comments here is white. What a cliche.
STFU, NEXT!
“Koreans have plenty of gratitude towards the people who actually contributed.”
Why not elaborate on this.
Is it just me or does the pattern above ring a bell to anyone else? I have a certain persona in mind who stopped turning up on the Hole last year.
Sorry, it just brought out the detective in yours truly.
American neoliberalism was a key factor in Korea’s development. It’s mistaken to think that it wasn’t a factor or that its effects were entirely one-sided. It has had positive and negative effects.
Lots of countries received international aid, countries that often had huge starting advantage in the guise of enormous natural resources…why these countries, mostly in Latin America and Africa, didn’t follow the same trajectory of success ?
Why poor, isolated, overcrowded, resource-free Korea was able to do what oil-rich Mexico (who has benefited way more from the proximitywith the US) couldn’t ?
Unless we wanna blame it all on the racist white man, who misteriously acted in a less racist way toward Asians.
I visited S. America recently and i was very well impressed and my impression is that many of these countries have learned the lesson and are becoming more and more Asian, focusing more on education and social order than partying around and gang-banging life
USA gave aid to many countries. South Korea is one of the few that did well with the aid. South Korea also had 3 military coup d’etats.
North Korea received aid from Russia and China. No military coup d’etats. This is where I stress the Korean responsibility. The primary Korean responsibility in North Korea has to do with ‘last name Kim’. Don’t breed, fellas. Especially if you claim a resemblance in one of your kindred.
You’re a dick wjk… but I guess you are what you look at every day.
^ Weren’t you the piker you kept pining for his return after he was banned?
When did I ever wish that?
Here, for instance. But maybe this current wjk isn’t the one you pine for; none of his post-reinstatement comments are about “d1c*s”. I guess you like the c0c*-obsessed one better. Why is that?
(perhaps a few character substitutions will circumvent moderation.)
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