It seems Korea did manage to find itself in this latest release of potentially embarrassing documents via Wikileaks.
Perhaps most interesting is that the United States and South Korea have been discussing a world without North Korea:
Thinking about an eventual collapse of North Korea: American and South Korean officials have discussed the prospects for a unified Korea, should the North’s economic troubles and political transition lead the state to implode. The South Koreans even considered commercial inducements to China, according to the American ambassador to Seoul. She told Washington in February that South Korean officials believe that the right business deals would “help salve” China’s “concerns about living with a reunified Korea” that is in a “benign alliance” with the United States.
Speaking of China, the Middle Kingdom was apparently allowing North Korea to export ballistic missile parts to Iran through Beijing Airport.
Oh, and our diplomats were reportedly ordered to spy on UN General-Secretary Ban Ki-moon.
{ 46 comments… read them below or add one }
WikiLeaks Rules!
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/middleeast/29missiles.html?ref=wikileaks
The whole Wikileaks thing boggles the mind: Not that there’s some website run by a dubious character who doesn’t mind the odd informer getting eliminted that publishes the shite, or the media outlets that further convey the information, but that one person with one thumb drive could access and download hundreds of thousands of secret and secret noforn documents and get away with it. The words “need to know” apparently are no longer part of the vocabulary of the U.S. Government.
and he is Australian – and the Australian government lets him get away with it.
That shows what Aussies are capable off.
What I’m not seeing is any significant impact – so what if this information is available to anyone with an internet connection? They’re going to shrug their shoulders, say ‘oh those bad guys’ and then fret that they’ll be late for work. Unless that information leads to outrage – and some sort of change – the only change that will happen will be one that makes it even harder for people to get this information out there.
don’t need no wikileaks.
i said the same few days ago HERE.
wikileaks is harmful. Prosecute Mr. Ass.
Oh come on now. All of you. grow up.
When you’ve got a post-Cheney govt dedicated to keeping secret EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD YOU CAN POSSIBLY IMAGINE (h/t Mick Jagger & The Stones), what you get is WikiLeaks. In my opinion Mr. Assange should be at least as deserving of a Nobel Peace prize as Obammer.
I don’t understand the motives of the “whistle-blowers” who turned over this latest batch of documents. It’s one thing to reveal corruption, or government deception, but these documents mostly reveal the policy positions of US allies. It could be someone who wants to show how unpopular Iran is, but I don’t understand the motivation behind the leak.
Anti-secrecy. See above. When Dick Cheney has somehow become the norm in our world, WikiLeaks is the remedy.
wjk- it’d be harmful if any of this was the least bit damning, or even interesting. The nyt has had two weeks with it and came up with basically nothing.
I don’t like it either, but at the same time I find it to be incredibly satisfying that none of it is really all that bad.
> Not that there’s some website run by a dubious character who doesn’t mind the odd informer getting eliminted that publishes the shite
Wedge, there was jack that Assange could do about Manning. If your informant is stupid enough to go bragging and describing all the details of what he did to someone who narcs on him… what the heck do you expect Wikileaks to do? Throw good money after bad by trying to defend him? (Hint: in a military court, after the publicity of the leaks, Manning never had the slightest chance of avoiding prison time.)
That said, the Korean leaks are supposed to go public tomorrow. Given things like http://www.rjkoehler.com/2010/11/29/tell-me-this-is-a-joke/ I look forward with interest to seeing what the local embassy critters think of such policies…
WikiLeaks is about to become a terrorist organization, with all of the banking, intepol, and gitmo implications… They embarrassed folks who can make life very tough on them, whose poll numbers are down, and who are looking for any target to nail…
It’s one thing to be carrying a sign at a tea party… It’s quite another to actually release stuff that makes Obama look bad…
Aside from setnaffa’s moronic comment about WikiLeaks being a “terrorist organization,” here a some excerpts from a dispatch written by Ambassador Kathleen Stephens:
Date: 2010-02-22
Source: Embassy Seoul
Classification: Secret
SUBJECT: VFM [Vice Foreign Minister] CHUN YOUNG-WOO ON SINO-NORTH KOREAN RELATIONS
VFM Chun’s opinions on Wu Dawei:
China’s New Generation of Korea-hands:
If found this comment about a “new generation” of Chinese Korea experts to be interesting. Perhaps a change in the PRC’s position with regards to the DPRK is only going to come after fresh new leadership begins to take the reigns. If this is indeed the case, I hope that ROK officials are making a concerted effort to cultivate warm ties with those individuals.
Oh yeah, here’s the link: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/28/world/20101128-cables-viewer.html#report/korea-10SEOUL272
Gwern: I’m talking about Afghan informants being outed and now subject to Taliban reprisals. Manning and anyone who approved the idea of making available hundreds of thousands of secret documents to any Army intel schmuck with an Intranet connection should be put in front of a firing squad.
Also, I just saw the movie “Ghost Writer,” which leaves me thinking if real life were like Hollywood that Assange waste of skin would have met an untimely demise. But of course it isn’t.
Mr. Ass is hurting people.
It’s rich of you to admit the outing of Valorie Plame is one thing and wikileaks is a separate matter.
Cui above will be eliminated by the PRC, especially with NYTimes helping with the interpretation,
and the incompetent and backwards Wu will stay on as the PRC’s pointman. Because Kim will complain and the China will oblige.
We all know that NYTimes and the media reading the wikileaks and interpreting for the public should be prosecuted too.
the public hates to read.
the Newspapers are reading and summarizing for the public.
if everyone actually read, we’d have an oversupply of doctors and lawyers.
oops, my bad. We already have an oversupply of lawyers.
that should mean something, by the way.
if a 100k people are reading wikileaks, then the newspapers are spreading the knowledge by having 50 million actually be aware of what is in wikileaks.
of course the newspapers have blood on their hands.
who’s going to spend their freetime actually reading wikileaks?
not me.
it’s also telling that in real time, Wu is sent by China to South Korea to deal with a present pressing problem.
See? Cui and Lui are f—ed.
Wu has the real power. And there is regress, not progress.
Wikileaks is hurting individuals and nations.
Prosecute wikileaks and jail Mr. Ass.
wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 asks:
Then answers:
Both question and answer here are not all that surprising. I doubt wjk reads anything of significance let alone documents from WikiLeaks, the NYT, or any newspaper for that matter. Perhaps this explains a lot of the nonsense his greasy, shit smelling fingers type out.
moron. Governments can also track your IP and monitor you for reading wikileaks. There’s no law against that.
Tilly, reality check.
Wu is driving the Chinese car.
NOT Lui nor Cui.
I AM RIGHT.
Just to second Tilly’s comment, Wikileaks might actually prove very useful for the South Koreans. If there’s anything capable of dampening the Nork’s enthusiasm for acting like complete asshats, it’s the prospect of China abandoning them.
Wouldn’t that be a wonderful eventuality?
Also raises the possibility of security organizations using wikileaks to disseminate false intel, once they figure out where the leaks are coming from.
“who’s going to spend their freetime actually reading wikileaks?
not me”.
Well praise the lawd you’ll be spending it here spamming the place with the crap due to the inability of your inadequate self to be heard anywhere else (except maybe on a street corner when your meds have run out). Nobody gives a fuck what you think or say, pal.
Anyone see this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-china-reunified-korea
hoju_saram:
I’ve thinking similar dastardly thoughts, but of a different variation. While publicly US national security organizations will have to damn and hector Assange’s WikiLeaks, in a very, very private, hush-hush manner they could perhaps provide WikiLeaks with certain levels of support so as to make it possible that he could get access to internal, highly sensitive PRC documents. In other words, what if they could co-opt Assange (ever so subtly, mind you) to get him to do the type of work their own agents have been incapable of thus far. Of course getting documents from a place like the PRC is a much taller order than say US government documents. But given how driven, self-righteous, and intelligent Assange is, I can see a slight possibility that it could happen.
Actions speak louder than words. As far as I am concerned the Chinese diplomats (except Wu) were just telling the US and SK what they wanted to hear. If this were leaks of Chinese diplomatic cables and not US cables, then I might start to believe that the Chinese were indeed sick of NK. The fact is that China allowed missile parts from NK onward onto Iran.Things are not going to change as long as Hu is in power and for the next ten years after that with Xi Jinping in power.
Also, from what I read, if Assange were high up in government he would be even more dictatorial than many in government. Hypocritical control freak.
Hatch SZ makes good points:
1. What corroborating evidence is there to substantiate the sincerity of the expressions of opinion by Cui and Liu?
2. Even if they are personally sincere, to what extent are their personal views shared within the bureaucracy, both above and below them on the food chain, and what other circumstances would lend support to any judgment that this is any sort of particularly promising development (assuming it’s true)?
” In other words, what if they could co-opt Assange (ever so subtly, mind you) to get him to do the type of work their own agents have been incapable of thus far.”
–Charles Tilly
I doubt it, Charles, because I do not see that he likes the way the US does business. And working for the US government in an espionage capacity is directly contrary to his objective.
I agree more with hoju_saram. I would add that wikileaks also has interesting potential for the US to use to disseminate actual true intel, too, to further American goals.
” As far as I am concerned the Chinese diplomats (except Wu) were just telling the US and SK what they wanted to hear.”
–Hatch SZ
One question is, how much were the policies of LMB and Obama affected by the apparent Chinese support during the YPD attack. We know that China prefers the status quo for now. In other words, it supports the DPRK from not only staving off a collapse, but also enables it to arm itself with WMDs to point at Seoul.
If LMB believes that China will freely allow the ROK to annex the north upon a collapse, does that mean that LMB and Obama are then more likely to turn the other cheek when the DPRK strikes?
It is hard to take the Chinese diplomats’ sentiments too seriously since the next generation led by Xi, who believes in the righteousness of defending the DPRK with military reinforcement, are much more virulent in their anti-American attitudes and want to develop a much more aggressive policy to dominate Asia, the Pacific, and the Indian.
The future sentiments of Chinese leaders are about to noticeably change with the incoming generation. I don’t know that depending on their good will is necessarily a good idea for the ROK.
BBC news has another video footage smuggled out of the DPRK.
In it, we see a 23 yo girl, who hasn’t eaten anything in days, collecting tall grass on a beautiful mountainside to sell. She looked pitiable. In another scene, a pretty woman surrounded by a lot of supportive men viciously curses at a police officer telling him that he is a stupid ignorant.
I’m an idiot. Can someone help me figure out how to find these BBC clips on the net?
Even less care about Indonesia, that I know.
I already knew to solve the North Korea problem, South Korea has to pay off the Chinese.
wikileaks is harmful. CNN did their own reading of the same wikileaks for the public, 99% of whom will not read wikileaks. Most have better things to do like work, study, and enjoy leisure. Governments will monitor IP addresses and take not of those spending 8 hours a day on wikileaks. These are probably terrorists or people who are paid by newsgroups to read wikileaks. Terrorists should be prosecuted to protect humans.
CNN edited out the names Wu, Liu, Cui, etc.
not–>note
Nice to see Hoju_Saram is still around.
Not nice to see wjk spamming my comment section. Allow me to be blunt: learn how to say what you want in one comment, or you’ll be banned again.
A couple of things:
1) I take the point that we should be circumspect as to the viewpoints of younger PRC foreign policy officials vis-a-vis the DPRK. That said, the point is that what’s indicated in this dispatch is that there are a plurality of views within the PRC foreign policy establishment (official/non-official) with regards to the DPRK. It’s probably in the interest of the both the ROK and the US to reach out to these voices, hear what they have to say, remembering that there’s a voice on the other said whose willing to play ball. That it’s not all monolithic nor impossible for things to change in mid-term future.
2) lollabrats doesn’t seem to quite grasp what I was trying to get at with my thought game. I’m aware that Assange has no love for the US government or its national security apparatuses. I understand that there’s no way the US is going to approach him directly and get him to work for us. That’s where the “subtle” part comes in. Let me spell it out better here: The objective would be to get Assange and his group to pursue something without them knowing or having a hint that it’s in fact the US government that’s facilitating certain aspects of their actions. It would be a form of soft, sotto voce co-opting.
“Let me spell it out better here: The objective would be to get Assange and his group to pursue something without them knowing or having a hint that it’s in fact the US government that’s facilitating certain aspects of their actions.”
–Charles Tilly
Charles Tilly doesn’t seem to quite grasp what I was trying to get at with my thought game. Let me spell it out better here. Interviews with people who have worked for Wikileaks clearly shows that he follows personal agendas and does not listen to anybody regarding what his organization should do. If he wants to take on China, he will do so on his own, not because anyone pleaded with him. He is notorious for ignoring others’ voices, including sottoe voce co-opting.
@lollabrats:
Well that would be the whole point of the entire thing. Utilize and channel his “personal agenda” subtly, without him knowing, to get him to do the US’ bidding. Dangle something in front of him that appeals to his ideological goals.
It’s sort of like deciding to channel the stream of a river in another direction rather than try and damming up the thing.
While it’s heartening to see China entertaining the thought of seeing Korean reunification as the preferred option for the Korean peninsula. My worry is how will both China and North Korea take this potentially embarrassing (for China) and sensitive information now that it’s been released into the public sphere?
1) How is China going to react to the leak, especially dealing with North Korea now that the leak is out there; and, perhaps more importantly, 2) How is North Korea going to react, realising that it is quite possibly on its own now and that its days could well be numbered given that its only, and most crucial, ally may be starting to turn its back on her?
Complete freedom of information can come at as many costs as benefits. It’ll be interesting to see the ramifications of this latest round of Wikileaks.
“Dangle something in front of him that appeals to his ideological goals.”
–Charles Tilly
Well, that is sort of where I was coming from, Charles. Clandestine services around the world must be considering the possibility of deliberately leaking truths and falsehoods to Wikileaks to advance their national interests. Assange is likely aware of this, too, and I am sure he has developed some countermeasures.
However, to leak secret Chinese files no one else has, he needs a Chinese, who is willing to pay with his life, to do the leaking. Wikileaks, on its own, has no ability to go dig for such information. And that is not what Assange does. And the US can only leak information it already has.
Wikileaks about NK are the top headline at NYTimes.com. Nice to read that I’m not the only one who thinks the regime will fall after Kim Jong-I’ll dies, and that some at State and the SKorean Foreign Ministry seem to understand the importance of the failed economic reforms (esp currency confiscation, whose one-year anniversary is today). Also, not such a surprise that many PRC officials can be wrong about the DPRK. I think there are probably some large flaws in their understanding of Asia’s Black Hole, as the article calls NK.
Julian Assange has really gone too far this time.
His next target is [gasp] a major bank. I predict he’ll never make it. Screwing with the US govt is one thing. Screwing with the folks who own and control the US govt is quite another.
I read the report that said Senior Chinese officials believe the
Korean peninsula should be reunified under Seoul’s control,
according to leaked classified US diplomatic cables.
The leaked North Korea dispatches detail how:
• South Korea’s vice-foreign minister said he was told by two named
senior Chinese officials that they believed Korea should be
reunified under Seoul’s control, and that this view was gaining
ground with the leadership in Beijing.
• China’s vice-foreign minister told US officials that Pyongyang
was behaving like a “spoiled child” to get Washington’s attention
in April 2009 by carrying out missile tests.
• A Chinese ambassador warned that North Korean nuclear activity
was “a threat to the whole world’s security”.
• Chinese officials assessed that it could cope with an influx of
300,000 North Koreans in the event of serious instability,
according to a representative of an international agency, but might
need to use the military to seal the border.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-china-
reunified-korea
Up until now, China has used North Korea as their “puppet state”.
However, the last thing China wants is Democracy on their doorstep,
especially when the democratic country on their doorstep would be a
close-alley of the USA.
Yesterday, we read this on wikileak –
¶ Thinking about an eventual collapse of North Korea: American and
South Korean officials have discussed the prospects for a unified
Korea, should the North’s economic troubles and political
transition lead the state to implode. The South Koreans even
considered commercial inducements to China, according to the
American ambassador to Seoul. She told Washington in February that
South Korean officials believe that the right business deals would
“help salve” China’s “concerns about living with a reunified Korea”
that is in a “benign alliance” with the United States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29cables.html?_r=1&src=tptw
That means South Korea was trying to bribe China with “commercial
business-deals” in order to have China help South Korea if the
North collapses.
Maybe the Chinese thought it was a good idea – but I never trust
them.
Especially, as for the last many years, China has been allowing
North Korea to use their ports to transport weapons from North
Korea to Iran, and other terrorist countries.
TO THE ONGOING TRANSSHIPMENT VIA BEIJING OF KEY BALLISTIC MISSILE
PARTS FROM NORTH KOREA TO IRAN’S MISSILE PROGRAM.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/128567
and when George Bush asked China to stop allowing it, China did
nothing.
So, China is now changing its mind, however they did say, that
South Korea must be kind and NO Americans are allowed into the part
that is north of the DMZ (Panmunjom).
Beijing “hopes for peaceful reunification in the long term, but he
expects the two countries to remain separate in the short term”.
All very interesting, but I think if the Kims of North Korea hear
about this news, they are going to be very upset.
“but I think if the Kims of North Korea hear
about this news, they are going to be very upset.”
–Craash
If it drives a wedge deeper between China and the DPRK…good.
Well, thank you. I’ve been in India for 2 weeks. Shameless photo plug.
Anyway, I’ve been lurking about since the Norks started shelling. There’s no better place for breaking Korean news. And something tells me there will be a lot of breaking news over the next year or so around the ROK.
The part of the Chinese stated position that makes sense to me, and is very believable, is that they fear and despise some old Red Guard who is in a position of power. I’m a bit surprised that an old hack like that still manages in the new China. China hates red guards. They hate what happened to their country under the cultural revolution. But foremost, they emphasize education for gov’t leaders more than most cultures, which is why I’m surprised Wu might still be in charge.
” Shameless photo plug.”"
–hoju_saram
beautiful pics…thanks for offering large resolutions
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