Bill at Ampontan has sparked an interesting discussion (as he’s wont to do). Be sure to read the post in its entirety — here’s just the beginning:
WHEN BLOGGING SOFTWARE went mainstream, the native English speakers in South Korea took advantage of it more quickly than those in Japan. People with an interest in Japan also often have an interest in Korea (and vice-versa), so I began reading several of the blogs written by expatriates in that country. It soon became apparent that more than a few of them shared some attitudes with expatriates in Japan: They had very little complimentary to say about the country in which they now lived. Their posts were clogged with whiny, whingeing, self-centered rants about a nation that failed to live up to their expectations. I’d heard the same for years from foreigners in Japan; only the names and places were different.
Fancy that; they came to the other side of the world to broaden their horizons but expected everything to be much the same as it is where they came from, including television program content, informal interaction in public among strangers, and supermarkets selling bucket-sized containers of diet ice cream. You know the expression, “Youth is wasted on the young”? In this case, the experience of life overseas is wasted on the people who live overseas.
Among the reasons for this phenomenon is that some people are not as open-minded as they like to pretend when they preen in front of their psychological mirrors. Most people come to terms with a world that isn’t going to conform to one’s demands or expectations before they’ve left school. Some of those who haven’t wind up in Northeast Asia.
Another factor–in Japan at any rate–is that they feel cheated because the Lafcadio Hearn experience is no longer open to them. They’re disappointed that time and traffic doesn’t stand still because they happen to be walking down a street filled with people more interested in the concerns of their own lives than their proximity to
a member of the Master RaceMr. Global Adventurer from a country Far Across the Sea. Yet another is that it gives them a cheap excuse to bask in the sunshine of their superiority.
For what it’s worth, much of the bitching I hear is precisely due to the unwanted attention that being a member of the Master Race Mr. Global Adventurer from a country Far Across the Sea brings you on a subway, walking down the street or in other aspects of your daily life. Not saying said bitching is justified, of course.
Kushibo weighs in on this topic, too. As for the reasons for the Kvetching ™, he also notes:
- being stripped away of one’s racial transparency
- actual legitimate gripes
Frankly, I think a lot of the griping is due to language — many expats cannot communicate with the population at large except through English-speaking locals. The inability to communicate breeds frustration, frustration that is reinforced by a social circle of fellow English-speaking expats.
To this, however, I’d add three other factors:
- I know I’ve said this before, but Korea is not, by-and-large, a happy-smiley place. The stereotype of the Korean hothead, full of pent-up frustration and carrying a massive chip on his shoulder, is just that — a stereotype — but like a lot of stereotypes, it stems from some degree of truth. Expats who live here might be isolated from society-at-large, but they’re not completely isolated from it, and the longer you stay, the more the negativity can rub off on you.
- Roh Moo-hyun and the Korean left. OK, this is mostly relevant for Americans, but it’s still worth noting. Without going into the history and reasons behind it, I’ll just say that the 2002 anti-American protests, five years of Roh, the more recent beef protests and other incidents left a really, really bad taste in the mouth of a lot of resident Americans.
- Much of the Western expat population — and the demographic that is most likely to blog — are young English teachers with liberal arts degrees and progressive opinions on political and social matters, the kind of opinions that don’t necessarily jive with Korea’s ethnic nationalism, cultural conservatism and general refusal to buy into the whole multiculti thing. As a conservative Southern friend of mine with whom I taught in a small Korean town put it, “I’m OK with it because I appreciate redneck.”
{ 90 comments… read them below or add one }
He’s called Bill? Anyway, he makes some good points, and I agree with a few of them. Trouble is, when he pulls the “Master Race” card, his otherwise thoughtful diatribe morphs into a hypocritical chip-on-the-shoulder hissy-whinge.
As I said on Amponten’s blog, I suspect motivation for coming abroad plays is strongly corrolated with whiney-ness.
In general, people who come out here because they are Korean or Japanese cultural or language aficionados don’t complain. If you spent your highschool days as the captain of the anime club or grew up competing in taekwondo competitions, you’re going to be more forgiving of Japanese or Korean cultural differences.
In general, people who come out here because they’re looking for a high-paying, low-qualifications-required job and time to relive their frat-boy glory days and spend their summer breaks boozed up and banging Thai transvestites on the beaches of Koh Samui aren’t likely to be as understanding or open-minded.
I’d like to test this theory somehow.
milton,
OK, I’ll start.. I came here because I like Korean literature and my best friend is a US citizen who was born in Korea (I abjure all specific titles that might get the trolls started).
And I really like it here.
But for the purposes of your experiment I will spend the next semester at my Uni reliving my frat-boy glory days and I plan to spend the next two weeks drunk out of my mind and rogering Thai transvestites (if my wife approves).
I’ll get back to you with the results. ^^
Holy moly, I’d a thunk banging Thai transvestites was more on the understanding-and-open-minded side of the scale. Especially so for the expat birds who bang ‘em.
This is why I’ve turned all of my bitching towards young English teachers. It satisfies my need to bitch and also ingratiates me to my hosts who are similarly displeased with the pot smoking, disease ridden youth of the West.ㅋㅋ
ccmontgom,
If, after your sojourn in Thailand, your musings on Korean literature are replaced by such blog topics as “Why Did an Adjumma Just Push Me?” and “My Favorite Dave’s ESLcafe Posters,” then I’ll have some good confirming evidence for my theory.
(Awesome blog, by the way. On second thought, for the sake of the English-language K-blogosphere, please don’t try testing my theory, just in case…)
That’s the spirit, Joel.
Milton: interesting post…my 2 cents here: after my last sojourn in Thailand i flew to Korea, when i landed at Incheon i felt like kissing the ground Woytila-style yelling:” Civilization, welcome back”.
As this is not a Thailand-related blog i will say it as it is: Thailand is the least favourite of my Asian countries to put it mildly, and fuck we have more catoi (South American variety) back home, why go there ?
PS Joel: excellent, excellent post !!!!
As far as the idea of “actual, legitimate gripes” mentioned above, what would you all say characterizes one handling those with sufficient cultural flexibility?
I ask because reading posts on this blog would lead someone less well informed to believe English teachers are nearly always at fault, culturally obtuse, unaware of how ‘the real world works’, and generally pathetic twits.
I’ll try to be serious (hence boring everyone to death): well i think it is partially true (like many stereotypes), it is cos of a process defined as adverse selection.
I found in my more or less succesful business ventures one undeniable problem: the TaeHanMinGuk is still not exactly known for what it is, lots of people still think it is a country where people live in shacks, starve, are subjected to random abuses by some weird dictatorship etc. etc. basically lots of people think Korea is still a third world country or a place comparable to China at best.
It will take a bit of time to change this image (i believe it was the success of manga and anime that changed Japan image for good btw so hurray for Hallyu) of the nation, that’s not the point, the point is that third world nations tend to attract the lowest quality whites, like those you can find happily partying around in Pattaya or Koh Samui.
When those douchies find out they didn’t land in another place where people make a living dancing to shitty top 40 in go go bars but they just spend their days commuting to their office/factory and they have hence very little tolerance for buffonesque behaviour, well that’s when the whining ensues
As he’s wont to do…
I’m going to put on my annoying “middle of the road guy” hat here. Both sides of this argument are too extreme. People who come to a foreign country and then complain because its foreign are stupid. If you don’t like it that much, go home. Quickly.
On the other hand many of the old timers (Joel for instance) who’ve made peace with Korea are also stupid when they whinge about the whingers. News flash, its called culture shock. Cut the newbies some slack. The whole “I’m a badass because I’ve ‘integrated’ with the locals” gig is really not that impressive.
“Kvetchpat” – I like it. The topic of expat complaining seems to have a two year cycle, which is about the amount of time it takes for the short-term expat population to replace itself; The Korean and I wrote about it
here in 2008. While compassion is due, I think, given that the complaining is usually an outgrowth of not being sure how to cope with culture shock, the thing that surprises me is how clearly I can hear my own voice saying exactly those things, sometimes not as long ago as I’d like to admit.
I’m with what he said above. Probably amplified in Korea as there are more teachers (and hence young, unworldly types) than anywhere else. Post Korea (but still in Asia) and post teaching I think there is still a lot of kvetching here from the professional types but because we are generally too busy working 60-80 hour weeks we don’t blawg, but rather save it for the pub.
By above, I meant Justinkraus as Rob beat me to the post.
Boggles the mind. Manga?! Anime?! Everyone knows it was the tentacle porn.
But seriously, Japan’s image and prestige had already been well enhanced in the ’80s, long before the Internet become commonplace and you could enjoy Sailor Moon.
Is Korea still seen as a third-world crap hole? I don’t think so, certainly not since the onset of the 21st century. Most of Korea’s (perceived) image problems (by Westerners) have to do with distinguishing what it is and what it purports to be. If you going to engage in shameless self aggrandizing, then there had better be some substance to support it. Beware the howlers. Too often Korea makes it too easy to take the piss out of it. And I’ve said it often enough: Korea cares far too much what others think of it. Think of the needy girlfriend. The one with the crazy eyes.
I have to admit you’re right again, Urotsukidoji was the most important marketing tool Japan Inc. has ever created.
Pfffftt
that’s where you’re wrong, the 80′s is exactly the time i’m referring to, i don’t know upthere but in continental Europe in the late 70′s we were already treated by our local tv’s with the likes of Mazinger, Goldorak, Gundam etc. etc. and we spent most of the 80′s watching shit like Saint Seya, Hokuto no Ken, UruseiYatsura and the biggest celebration of Japan golden real estate bubble era: the unforgettable Kimagure Orange Road
Shit i always fall for that type, also i forgot to mention Captain Tsubasa: it was the biggest influence on a couple of crops of soccer players here, prolly that explains quite a few things
“On the other hand many of the old timers (Joel for instance) who’ve made peace with Korea are also stupid when they whinge about the whingers. News flash, its called culture shock. Cut the newbies some slack. The whole “I’m a badass because I’ve ‘integrated’ with the locals” gig is really not that impressive.”
A. I’m not sure how I feel about being called an old timer at the ripe young age of 29. Iz in ma prime.
B. Robert could you please install a sarcasm html that makes my text flash to those not keen enough to pick up on the (what I thought was obvious) tone of my comments?
C. What is a whinger?
D. I know it’s not cool. If I weren’t on probation, I’d have left this hell hole years ago. (insert flashing text html)
I don’t know about you, but I love hanging out on Khao San road with a bunch of 20-something backpack-bots talking about how—after a few weeks cruising the expat bars of Pattaya and hanging out exclusively with other white people—my life is so different, how everything has changed, how nothing will ever be the same again, how I won’t be able to relate to people back home, how I’ve such an amazing experience, how suburban American life is so boring, how I’m such a different person, how I’m such an individual and unique person, how dressing in attire that would be considered tasteless back home and wearing a comically-oversized backpack is the only way to express your true individuality…. It’s, like, so totally awesome dude. I don’t know how I can ever go back to working at the Sunglass Hut. Only Kerouac can express how, I, like totally feel right now.
I also enjoy the occasional Sunday-morning eyeopener with German and Swedish pensioners and their 14-year-old Thai brides.
Milton, I actually disagree with you. Having lived in both Japan and Korea, the whiniest people often were those who came already with a specific interest in Japan or Korea. What I saw happen was people who came with very high expectations were incredibly disappointed when things didn’t live up to those expectations.
Part of this though is because some of these people, for lack of a better word, were losers back home. They became heavily interested in a culture that was not their own partly because they blamed their current culture for their outcast status. They had this idea that when they got to either Japan or Korea everything would be great. A lot of them had no real knowledge of the country itself beyond anime, taekwondo, etc and didn’t really understand the culture. They did not realize by simply being a foreigner it would be even harder for them to fit in then it was back home. Not that some of them didn’t succeed, but many did not and became really bitter and whiny.
milton: super-duper mega ROFLMAO
i have to say Bangkok (nomen omen ?) is not a totally unpleasant place: a night at the Lumpinee is always worth it and i had a great time at a Channel 7 event too
This must be the best piece of commentary i’ve read here at the Marmot. I’ll happily confess i was one of the above mentioned types (who would have guessed hahaha ?), i remember vividly the sense of letdown when i finally scrapped together the money to visit Tokyo in the early 90′s.
What i expected to be some golden land filled with beautiful, rich people with extravagant clothes living an ubercool life in the most futuristic city on earth turned out to be a fairly grim, unkept place populated by harmless and boring dorks, pretty much like the shit i wanted so desperately escape from at home.
In a few years i’ve come to realise that Asia is not the best place in the world to be a young
poor migrant workeradventorous type in search of a more emotional life. Asia can be very rewarding but imho requires some degree of self-confidence and security in life to be fully appreciated.I was actually surprised with Ampontan’s post to include Korea at all in the same bracket. I have a NIGGLING suspicion that Hallyu(a.k.a. they are not that inferior to us Japanese) must be exerting its influence if it affects Japanophiles.
@ Joel
I’m 28, you’re 29, but you’ve lived here for awhile. So have I (damn marriage). So yes although it is kinda depressing, we are both old timers.
Second, yes sarcasm is hard to convey in comments. Work on it.
Whinger = You (in a bad way)
Third, I defintely understand your angle. Bashing newbie waegooks is the easiest way to get puntang in this country (been there done that). But broadcasting it on a blog probably isn’t a smart move.
Khao San road gap-year hippie backpackers + Pattaya lager louts = me thinks you’ve never been to Thailand. True enough plenty of whites at both locales, but their race is about the only thing in common. Hippies ain’t too popular w/ the bar girls – no money, no honey sez the t-shirt. Your Khao San Rd tribes will be found at the beaches of Koh Phangan and Koh Tao (they’ve been chased off Koh Chang), up north at Pai and Chiang Rai, and in Laos and Cambodia.
Sorry, I was thinking of the image of Japan held by adults at that time.
I have a niggling suspicion that this thread was dead before it began.
Oh, I have. Many, many, many more times than I’d care to admit.
Truth be told, I’m more of a Ratchaprasong kinda guy myself. I wouldn’t go within a katooey’s woody of Pattaya, so please excuse my liberties taken for the sake of saracasm.
In case you’re wondering, I get all my stereotypes about Thai expats from this site:
http://www.khmer440.com/
Korean Expats always make me laugh.
Here in Japan, the general opinion of them is that they were the ones who weren’t qualified enough to make it in Japan and went for the poor man’s second choice.
Here in japan, we are paid better than our fellow workers in Korea, the work conditions and work honesty are much higher and the Japanese have a public civility which visitors to Korea can only dream about.
Nobody, and I mean nobody here, would willingly give up working in Japan for Korea, and nobody here has any interest in a second rate copy of Japan.
Just on the above points, Bill at Ampot… is highly suspect.
Scipio, that’s more like it.
I used to teach in Bangkok. I had to leave because I couldn’t stand the expats. Korea’s expat’s are better: they bitch alot, but it’s not too difficult to find the smattering who are genuinely good, interesting people.
BTW, it was incredibly easy to find those good, interesting expats among English teachers in Europe. The difference? None of them are there for the money.
But I like to cut a lot of slack for the bitching. Let’s face it: it’s more fun to bitch than praise.
If Ampontan were any more reactionary, he’d be driving a black loudspeaker truck.
‘If Ampontan were any more reactionary, he’d be driving a black loudspeaker truck.’
Really, well said. Anyone who has taught immigrants or non-natives in their home countries, knows that the newby comes with a lot of baggage, both good and bad. ‘Don’t matter nothing if he’s be white, brown or Yellow.
Comparisons are a human condition, it’s one of the factors that makes us unique. Of course we are more suspicious and critical of the less familiar. People who make this whole issue, one of race, should really be examining their own motivations and reasoning.
Nobody loves a whiner and the porch n—er have their uses, but niether are examples of construcive humanity.
Scipio,
Poor fellow, you’ve got it completely backwards. From memory, English teachers in Japan don’t need degrees. And while the pay is similar to Korea, living costs in Japan are much higher, leaving less in the pocket. If esl teachers in Korea are bottom feeders, their Japanese counterparts are algae.
LOL Hoju, I would have said Spirulina (an expensive pond-scum)
The irony of the Ampontan post is that he turns out to be the worst whiner of all, as do many of the anti-expat expats. Bitching on a personal blog about getting a fork instead of chopsticks or corn on ones pizza is one thing, but to comb through all that nonsense, compile a list and then complain about someone else’s complaining! Man, that’s taking it the next level. If “Kvetchpat” is what we call foreigners complaining about life in Korea, what do we call the foreigners constantly harping on foreigners’ complaining? And more to the point: who’s more of a bitchy whiner?
Poor fellow, you’ve got it completely backwards. From memory, English teachers in Japan don’t need degrees. And while the pay is similar to Korea, living costs in Japan are much higher, leaving less in the pocket. If esl teachers in Korea are bottom feeders, their Japanese counterparts are algae.
Yeah you keep telling yourself that. Tons of post on Japanese websites about Korean ESLs desperate to leave Korea and come to Japan, and how is it done?
I’ve yet to read a single post that is the other way around .
When you can find a job in Korea that pays 942,978229 won a year for working 8 months a year, which is what myself and other qualified teachers get for doing the uni rounds, without tenure, then there might be a chance of coming across such a post.
Then again maybe not, because you’d still have to endure all the other flaws of a second rate copy of Japan and there isn’t enough Won that they could pay you to endure that.
Anyway, like I said, any guy who leaves Japan to work in Korea is definitely on the sus list, by that simple action alone.
Whoops, should read 94,000,000 Won.
Must be like living on a Monopoly board over there.
@justinkraus
in the future i will star all my comments so you know they are sarcastic*
p.s. everyone knows talking bad about english teachers doesnt get you laid. the trick is to talk about how much you hate 2MB and what a shame it was that 한명숙 lost the mayoral election after consuming several bottles of sweet liquid like 매화수, 청하 or 막걸리. but you might not know these, being out of the game and all*
pss i’m not sure where you get off classifying me as a whinger since i rarely comment on this blog, let alone whine, and when i do more than half of my comments are me making sexual advances at hamel. if you’re jealous let me know and i’ll throw some love your way.(notice no star)
Japan expats are better than Korea expats. Korea expats are better than Thailand expats. Korea expats are better than Thailand expats. My daddy can beat up your daddy. Oh yeah？Yeah. Oh yeah? Yeah . . .
I propose “kvkvetchpats”
Scipio, welcome, rarely we get a 월척 nowadays.
I thought for about 10 seconds on how my emigration, along with Roh’s suicide, managed to cause expats to whine. Must be my oversized ego.
Yeah, I’d go see someone.
That was funny.
I dealt a little with this corundum since I have been back in the US for a year. Many reacted “Ten years? Wow! You must have loved it there.” The logic of such confounds my thoughts after many of the negative experiences I had.
The tendency to find negatives in Korea is not limited to the english teacher type. There are many a US solider/UN Observer/Embassy worker who eschew Korea via negative experiences or observations. Likewise the many international business-types does not look forward to being posted Korea. There is a reason why “the Hub” plan failed.
Before we get too judgmental, there are common physiological factors here that really have nothing to do with the host country, or even how negative a blogger really is.
Are the blogs really that negative? It is human nature to comment on the negative over the positive, and likewise remember the negative over the positive. These blogs may just be carrying out this tendency en masse. For those of you regular readers of Marmot’s Hole, what do you think of first, the anti-English Spectrum or photo pictorials on Korean buildings?
The same thing above could be said for differences. Think of the task of answering the question “What is it like in Korea” (or any country). Are you going to take a dutiful amount of time to discuss everything in Korea that is the same as your home country? Of course not. You are going to talk about differences, differences which may be complaints, or interpreted as so.
For example, if you discuss walking down the street, you are likely to forget talking about the convenience store, the corner restaurant, the local pub, or the coffee shop. You have them all back home. They are boring to talk about and not what the original question was about really. What you may talk about is the huge fish tanks in front of seafood restaurants, the fish in them, and your likeliness of eating there. This, while perhaps an innocent comment on difference, could be read, or even twisted through mistranslation, as a complaint about Korean cuisine.
Another factor is the isolation. Despite the talk of “friends” or “the community”, expats are mentally, and sometimes physically, more isolated than they would be in their home countries. Or to put this in a different way, there are only so many people to air your frustrations to and get some empathy from. As such, I wonder how much blogging is cathartic. Even if the author consciously wraps himself in a cloak of “amateur writer” or “citizen journalist”, there may be a better subconscious reason why he is blogging. Lastly, there could be a bit of peer pressure in this all. If everyone is complaining about the host country, it does place pressure on you to do so as well to be part of the group. Add to this the fact there is not many social groups due to the isolation, the pressure intensifies. In fact one might even become the most vocal critic (even start blogging) so as to gain the approval of few social groups around them.
I had the feeling Yuna was in an uber good mood today
Interesting discussion. Although I would say that the most whiny, entitled expats out there are the Indians (just the upper class, of course).
I must admit that “kvetchpat” is catchier than White Guys as an Oppressed Minority Ethnic Studies Department.
+2 LULZ for thekorean…
since voting is no longer enabled…
This is very reasonable the missing point is that the situation of isolation in most cases is neither the host country nor the expat fault, it is due to the fact that being abroad for a prolonged time to work simply leaves very little time and opportunities to socialize.
I remember in my 6 years in America, as i worked for European owned-firms where most of the employees were euros, i had very little chance to interact with the locals (actually very little time to interact with people at all) , can i honestly say America is an unwelcoming nation ? No cos simply i don’t know the place, all i did was commuting back and forth from the office and party around a bit in bars&clubs, mostly with collegues: not that different from many expats in Korea.
Out of intellectual honesty i can’t say i lived there, i can only say i resided there, hence i’m completely unqualfied to say anything about American society, as i mentioned i suspect the same applies to most expats in Japan/Korea
Methinks the expat agast in Japan will intensify once JET ends…
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jtPPLc7V3CCJ5ofjL0ekvyVbWx_QD9H8HLD80
It’s a lot harder to belly ache on $40k a year vs. $25k a year… methinks.
Yuna,
Hahaha…. are you kidding me? Hallyu stands at a distinct disadvantage against Japanese pop culture to the Western young men demographic. Not enough tentacle porn. It probably wasn’t on most Japanophiles’ radar screen until the bloggers attacked Japan.
Wapanese Japanophile logic 101:
1) Expats talk shit about Korea. It must be true since Japan is clearly superior to Korea.
2) Expats talk shit about Japan. It must not be true and thus expats are the real bad guy. Oh, and while we are on the subject, the negative expat bloggers on Korea must also be wrong.
We eat san-nakji – it’s close enough.
Only if you are gonna use it like a gerbil and… animate it!
Sorry to ask this, but can someone clarify where the whining blogger stereotype came from? I don’t really see where this whining is prevalent. Most of the blogs I read aren’t whiney, but positive. Most of the people I know aren’t whiney either. Maybe I should read more blogs? Apart from Dave’s ESL Café, what prominent examples of whining are there?
RIGHT FUCKIN’ HERE!!!
I knew a few who took that career route. Most were in their forties and had aged out of their jobs in Japan. One very smart university teaching couple lived off one salary of $70,000 and saved the other for several years back in the 90s before being put out to pasture in Korea.
No TK. It did not originate here. Dave’s ESL Cafe is the main culprit IMHO. Korean Rum Diary was a good (from a certain point of view) one. Then there’s http://www.occidentalism.org/ which is seldom updated any more.
There is a tendency by some here to confuse legitimate criticism of policies, attitudes, etc with whining.
True, but i still think it is somehow poor taste to go visit somebody else house and start pointing out that the furniture is old and dirty, the plumbing sucks and the host a bit of an asshole, even if all of it is true.
You Americans should be well aware of this: many foreigners constantly write long, elaborate essays on the shortcomings of American society while at the same time collecting fat paychecks in the US.
I don’t find it a horrible thing, just distasteful
Foreign residents are not guests. They’re more like renters. If the plumbing’s not working or the parking lot needs paving, they’re within their rights to complain. Foreigners are welcome to collect fat paychecks while complaining about the US as long as they abide by our laws and file accurate tax returns.
I started using the phrase “whiny expat” independent of seeing anyone else use it. It’s just one of those inevitable memes, I guess.
Whiny expat, in my mind, would be an expat complaining about those not so heavy or grave social issues, which in the bigger picture is like a toddler crying about there not being more than 2 flavors of ice cream at the store. Examples: “Wahh, my free apartment isn’t big enough!” Or, “Wahh… ahjeoshi just spit on the sidewalk and stared at me!”
The grievances expats write about are paltry to what other minorities in other countries have been dealing with for a very long time. Most of these expats are essentially tourists, not even immigrants, and they write and complain like they’re going to do a million-man march or some shit, replete with candle light and healing poetry, with chants of “We shall overcome!”
LOL.
Sonagi: point taken, your comparison is actually more accurate than mine. You forget one thing in the picture though: where the equilibrium of supply&demand lies.
Normally in the rental market pretty much supply and demand are in some sort of equilibrium, and actually right now probably renters can get away with some great bargains, the opposite is true for jobseekers, something that you as a Michigander (this is the correct word ?) and me as an Eyetee know tragically well.
What i’m trying to say is that there are worse things for a young man/woman than being shipped abroad to some fast-growing country to work a job that doesn’t involve diggin’ coal in a mine with in the mean time a high chance to end up dating an attractive exotic foreign woman/man (according to personal preferences).
Honestly when i landed my chop shop job in America, after i fully realised what i was in, i felt like i won the national lottery i didn’t care much about the fact that Midwest weather sucked shit, tv shows were unwatchable and clubs spun outdated dance music
abcetc. just expressed much more effectively what i wanted to say
God I hate this topic, but since it’s the gift that keeps on giving, I gotta ask those more in the know than I…does anyone actually come to Korea to make good money anymore? I mean, “see the world,” maybe. “Get out of podunk wherever,” sure. But turning cash? I dunno.
The reason I ask is that from english teachers and freelance editors on the low end, to expat professionals in finance and law on the high, I don’t know anyone who makes more money in Korea than they’d make in, say, New York, London, or Hong Kong. An english teacher pulling down 3.5 million won a month in Seoul is making about $35K. Not a great salary. A finance type clearing 15 million a month in Seoul is making about 150K. Again, nowhere near his NY or HK counterpart. And let’s not even start comparing attorney salaries, where first years at a Vault 100 firm START at $160K.
So is my math totally off, or does coming to Seoul mean taking a pay cut?
Just asking….
DLB
@gangpeh #60
“it is somehow poor taste to go visit somebody else house and start pointing out that the furniture is old and dirty, the plumbing sucks and the host a bit of an asshole, even if all of it is true.”
the problem with this analogy is that many of us are living in the house, no longer guests, but the other members of the household fail, or refuse to acknowledge that the guy down the hall is actually living there.
It doesn’t help that it’s impossible to differentiate interlopers from heavily invested permanent resident “lifers” after the first few glances of a website, or the first few minutes of conversation.
DLB: how many unemployed investment bankers, lawyers, corporate midmanagers, media-type wannabes colleges around the world have churned out in the last 3 years ?
I know a guy here in Milan who used to be a mutual fund manager with a firm managing serious institutional money in London, who after loosing his job had to come back home and take a nil paying job in some shady internet venture (one of my clients btw)
Another one i know is a friend of a friend who just completed a master degree in applied math at the NYU: she’s back in Italy after finding no employment in America (apparently a common situation in her class) and pondering to go back to America to take a PhD as she has a rich auntie who would pay for her living expenses there.
This ain’t no 2005 anymore
Gangpe,
You’re both perceptive and correct…the Bush recession has exacted a cost on many. But let’s also not compare (unemployed) apples to (employed) oranges. I’m talking about the gainfully employed in, say, NY or Singapore, to their (also gainfully employed) professional counterparts in Seoul. I know I for one took a significant pay cut when I left SF to come work for about 5 minutes for my old firm in Seoul in 2007, and I’d guess based on my conversations with other professionals that I’m not alone.
For newcomers seeking the Korean dream in lieu of one in the old country, a job’s a job. But that, too, is a recent development. I’m talking “big picture.”
DLB
A person who complains is unhappy. If someone else is unhappy, that’s his or her problem. You can make it your problem, too, or you can let it be their problem. One interpersonal skill I brought back from Asia was the ability to tune out other people complaining. My second year back in the US I worked with a chronic complainer who loved nothing more than the sound of her own voice complaining. Whenever she got the floor in dept. meeting, she’d string together one complaint after another. I felt sorry for her, I really did. Her self-imposed misery made me appreciate my contentment all the more. I was rewarded for my patience with a new colleague the following year. If someone else complains about trifles, have a laugh and shrug it off.
Yup. Plus, there’s the issue of long-term job security and permanent legal residency. I miss some things about Korea, but overall, I have a much better quality of life now that just keeps getting better. There are reasons why most trans-Pacific immigration is eastbound.
A master’s in applied math? What was she expecting to do that degree?
DLB: my fault i actually thought nobody with still a satisfying job in a major business hub was getting switched to Seoul..this indeed could be a good topic, wonder if other foreign executives of foreign firms in Korea can express their view…
By the way in euro terms Seoul seems ridicolously cheap, how it compares to SanFran ? Even factoring in the cost of life your standard of living decreased ?
she wanted to be a quant in some hedgie…common dream apparently
Sonagi and Gangpe raise an interesting point about quality of life / standard of living. I think Seoul is probably pretty awesome if you’re a twenty-something on the prowl, living in a one-room whatever and hitting the bars three nights a week. For this crowd, Seoul probably seems like Vegas (or K-town) on steroids.
For the over-thirty crowd, though, I’m genuinely curious what the quality of life calculus is. I guess one plus is you probably pay lower taxes. But the things adults like to do are (I think) generally more expensive in Seoul than Stateside. Factor in the cost of real, decent housing in Seoul, private schools and tutors for the kids, and non-bar-hopping activities (sailing, golfing, whatever) and suddenly we’re talking serious change.
I’m not saying it’s a bad choice, but it’s a choice that seems counter-intuitive.
DLB
DLB: my very superficial impression is that Korea to a certain degree is still an autarchic economy, so if you limit your basket of purchases to local products it is actually a very cheap place if you’re interested in international brands it is a nightmare.
For instance i found the prices of generic Hyundai/Kia cars much cheaper than what i would pay here for similar vehicles of euro brands…i dread to think how much an X5 would cost in Seoul. Same with electronics: prices of LED tv’s are about half of what they are here (and Italy is not expensive for electronic junk) again i don’t wanna think how much a Droid X phone may cost.
Overall at middle class level Koreans seem to me more affluent than euros, and definitely less than Americans
You know, I’ve only had three seriously bad experiences in Korea that were not completely self-inflicted.
A. When doing consulting for LG Chemical, every time I used the men’s room the cleaning lady was right behind me ready to scrub the urinal when I finished.
B. The 5th floor shoe salesmen at some Namdemun department store made fun of my belly (yes, I’m overweight). Partly my fault as maybe I could exercise more.
C. The last time I stayed in a hotel other than the Shilla, it seemed like the cigarette smoke from the other folks on my floor was sucked out of the hall and piped into my room. Visible smoke. Not fun.
Korea is not California, Texas, or Iowa. It’s not Japan, Thailand, or Mexico. Seoul is quite different from Ilsan, Taegu, and Kunsan. The locals have their own rules; and adults who don’t like Korea should find a place they might like better. I recommend all the whiners try Japan.
Maybe it’ll help the Korean image of Expats if the Kvetchpats leave.
#56 — Oh, you big meanie.
Come on Robert, you know as well as I do — you are a whining, bitching expat and I am a raging egomaniac of a Korean nationalist.
Its seems that the typical white male expat that comes to Korea has the initial mindset that they will learn the language and culture..why they don’t do some of that BEFORE they come is a mystery to me.
and then after a few months ..4-6 months, they determine that the language is too hard to learn (and they are only gonna be here a year) and that the culture..well the culture is too ‘different” but they DO like the ladies and oh yeah,,,in Hongdae and Itaewon they can always find female companionship.
and they got their expat buds and some Korean groupies, er, “friends”…..
and so a golden opportunity to learn about a new culture is wasted.
My friend who teaches at Chula in Thailand tells me the same thing..that he knows some profs have been in Thailand for years and don’t speak the language but they have Soi Cowboy and cheap Lao beer sooooooo.
On a serious note, I think those of us who are literally invested here have a right to make constructive criticisms with the idea of making it better for us, which usually means even better for Koreans. On a non-serious note, screw the lot of ya, I’ll whinge as much as I want. Bring back the Discovery Channel and AFKN, you monkey-buggerers at Yongsan Cable!
And when I lived in Japan, Japan Today was the expat bitchfest site of note. I’m sure every country has at least one.
@28
You must be an English teacher.
I’d take what my job is doing for my resume over what working for a Japanese electronics company would do for my resume anyday.
Also, I chose Korea over Japan, site unseen (though I’d been to Japan.)
@42 Nice one TK.
I agree with point #4, and the quote above says it oh so well. I’ll be using that from time to time.
I think Incestuous Amplification had the most appropriate Kexpat blog name of all time.
Joel’s still funny I see.
Korean restaurants are a good value. Fruit can often be pricey. Beware veg in the winter.
Soju and smokes…those are your grand bargains.
There is so much hot air about this topic, and really it’s very, very simple. Go to a place like Germany. You will find that both western and Asian expats are, overall, very happy to be there; they are tolerated; there is an open exchange of ideas and an acceptance of other ways of living. Daily life is pleasant and the cultural offerings on the platter are highly satisfactory to expats from all over. This is not difficult to comprehend. A lot of expats have a very difficult time in Korea because Korea is a very difficult place, with a great deal of negativity, rudeness, institutional racism, and a hot-headed brusqueness that is hard to find elsewhere.
In short , the number of assholes per 1000 people is extremely high. Some of them are on this blog, jumping on anyone who criticizes Korea in any way. If I have any complaints about these so-called whiny types, it is that they stay for the easy money even though it’s a bitch. Take all you can and get out. That cash you carry home may well be the only thing good you ever take from that pathetic little country.
Until they send you on a nice little train journey.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,502471,00.html
let’s be serious please
Be serious? Ok, how’s this for starters? Yuna, the nazi past is not the German present. That snide remark is a bit surprising coming from you, given its overt racism.
As for pointing out that ugly racism exists in redneck Germany, and can and did even lead to violence, perhaps we should engage in an in-depth discussion of human trafficking, forced prostitution, 3D import worker abuse, corrupt business practices aimed specifically at foreigners, SE Asian sex tours by Korean businessmen, and a whole bunch more? All of which are aimed at those with darker skin, excepting Russians.
If you want to dig down in the weeds a bit, I’ll put anywhere in western Europe up against Korea any day.
There are miserable experiences to be had in all places. But, if you get back on topic and look at the big picture, and take a balanced view, are either of you two really going to suggest that the overall expat experience in Germany is more negative than in Korea? Please.
“By the way in euro terms Seoul seems ridicolously cheap, how it compares to SanFran ? Even factoring in the cost of life your standard of living decreased ?”
Exactly, and tax ridiculously low here compared to back home, and back home they wouldn’t be paying for a plush apartment in the midst of Kensington, and DLB compares with top 100, not par, you could just as easily make the same comparison with Arkansaw.
So considering large part of living cost is free, the remaining costs generally lower than home, and the government not taking half before I even blink and then 18% VAT on top of that, and duty’s on alcohol etc, then yeah I don’t consider I would be financially better off home.
Maybe a top 100 lawyers a different case….
Arghaeri,
Did/do you live in Kensington, ’cause I had digs in Chelsea during my LSE stint and even the folks in that posh neighborhood had a complex about Kensington.
Anyway, I think it’s still accurate that for a lot — if not most — expats, working in Seoul is an economic wash. Rather, I get the feeling that for this crew, it’s actually the romance of living abroad that’s the real draw, even if that place is Seoul.
Of course, there’s also a fair number of misfits, but that’s another topic.
Cheers,
DLB
People naturally gripe about anywhere. It’s just when you’re associated with the the group the gripes are aimed at it feels personal. We gripe because there’s no point talking about the things you like, you’re content with those. For every expat you meet with a mile long list of gripes you can be certain there’s an equally potent list somewhere that’s keeping him around.
I gripe a LOT about the US when I’m back home too. I love the US despite being the most ruthlessly litigeous group of entitled dorks around. I could go all day (and often I do).
Don’t assume people who have complaints about of place don’t like it. It could just mean they’re invested.
DLB,
No, that’s the point, no way would an english employer pay for an apartment in an expensive part of town, for that matter they wouldn’t pay in a poor part of town either, it straight off your own dime. Which after they’ve taken 50% straight out of the pay packet ain’t gonna happen for the average guy/gal. Once you’ve paid the tax and the rent/mortgage in the UK there ain’t a whole lot left…until you’ve got that mortgage out the way….
So living in korea, with low tax, someone else paying the accommodation, and relatively lower living expenses… ain’t that bad a deal….even when the headline “gross pay” is a somewhat lower….
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