According to Scott Creighton, we are being lied to and, unfortunately, he doesn’t seem to be alone. Looking at the postings of our fellow bloggers in Korea there seems to be some uncertainty of whether or not we are getting the full story - and usually the insinuations are directed at the Korean government. However, Scott Creighton at Willyloman.wordpress.com implies that it is the American government that is deceiving us – the American citizens:
It is clear that we are being lied to and manipulated into believing that North Korea is behind the sinking of the South Korean vessel, the Cheonan. It is impossible to draw conclusions at this time as to who is responsible but we can conclude based on the evidence, that the official story is yet another lie being pawned off on the American people. This lie is obvious and could be used to instigate military action against the people of North Korea.
Creighton raises a number of questions and implies that the torpedo is/was of German origin. One of his readers, Yoon, who identifies himself as a South Korean wrote:
I’m from South Korea and I could say that the “number one” written on the torpedo is not actually a Korean which is used commonly in South Korea as well.
It is a Korean which is ALWAYS used in South Korea to mean Number 1! ’1번’ means number 1!! Me and 40 something million other South Koreans use that character All the time. That is a damning evidence to absolutely nothing.
And if it were North Korean How the hell did a lousy two-lettered word seemingly written in magic marker survive the major heat and pressure released in the explosion? North Koreans must have really wanted the world to find out it was them who shot the torpedo? They must be suicidal. Of course that makes perfect sense doesn’t it?
Koreans have a very strong feeling toward North Korean citizens, because Korea existed as a unified nation for thousands of years before being seperated. Thousands of families were torn apart and they are still seeking reunion of their family. That’s why South Koreans think North Korea is somehow linked with us, like a very distant cousin.
Bringing an unnecessary war atmosphere here is the last thing any of us need.
Don Kirk touched briefly on the Korean writing in his article in Asia Times and Creighton makes a reference to it.
Democratic Underground also has a posting entitled What if North Korea didn’t fire the torpedo. This site also calls into question of just how accurate and truthful the investigation was. It is worth reading – even if you don’t agree with anything on it just for the links to all of the newspaper articles and reports.
Creighton’s postings do cause one to stop and think – but it is also worth noting that he does write about some strange things. His homepage is a good start. He has an intense interests in the pyramids and the secrets they hold for our future – interesting to read (at least by me because I like history and he has some interesting photographs – passionate but a little out there). He is also quite popular on this site – abovetopsecret.com - which, among other things, discusses UFOs and other wide-ranging conspiracies – some are fairly interesting.
Regardless – I just thought some of you may be interested in seeing what is being talked about on some of the blogs back home. It is pretty obvious that at least some members of my family in the States have been reading these – hence the emails entitled “Get out of Korea now!!!!” I am sure I am not alone.
{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }
Yep, and I bet he know by heart the real truth about 9/11, too.
Conspiracy theorists – if sometimes they didn’t make sense, you’d tend to write them off as nutters as nutty as the religious ones.
‘…he knows…’
Yoon: “Koreans have a very strong feeling toward North Korean citizens” — yes, strong derision, once those citizens actually try to make a life in South Korea.
While we’re at it, let’s try to find the army that actually committed the Nanking Massacre, since small numbers of Japanese deny it occurred…
I wonder if pictures like this one is making KJI piss a little bit in his pants?
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/116_66691.html
@4, maybe, but then the same daily has this tyrant-soothing editorial:
“Now is the time for Kim Jong-il to invite Carter to Pyongyang. He should provide irrefutable evidence that North Korea was not behind the attack. Or he must admit North Korea’s attack and make a sincere apology while promising not to repeat the crime. This will contribute to diffusing the tension on the Korea Peninsula although it may take time to appease the angry South Koreans. Nobody in the South wants a war with the North. He must declare that North Korea will stop all hostile activities toward the South including rejoining the six-party denuclearization talks. An inter-Korean summit may be an option if he is sincere enough. Seoul may give him the benefit of the doubt so that he could admit the wrongdoing without losing face. “
I’ve read this crank Creighton before now and am amused that he would get involved with this business. American never landed on the moon either and Hitler escaped the bunker in Berlin.
I don’t know. How the hell did this gate at Nagasaki survive the “major heat and pressure” released in an atomic explosion? . . . Yoon the Loon.
Everybody now:
“Don’t bogart that joint, my friend… pass it over to me.”
Yoon must also be a true believer of this clips which are spreading once again among the netizens. BTW, The producers been charged with the violation of the National Security Act (국가보안법) in 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhKgd1Dcg5Y&feature=player_embedded
(sorry no Eng. subs)
Kind of reminds me of those who deny the moon landing. They ignore the most obvious evidence, like the laser reflectors placed on the surface of the moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment), to draw attention to their own self-serving interpretation.
(hint: Most North Koreans don’t have electricity, so you’re an ass if you think a few internet searches proves that North Koreans speak a certain way or another).
Speaking of hard evidence…
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/apollosites.html
“I’ve read this crank Creighton before now and am amused that he would get involved with this business. American never landed on the moon either and Hitler escaped the bunker in Berlin.”
Well, there you go. I’m not surprised one bit.
I don’t know this Japanese reporter, but there does seem to be some questions….
http://www.infowars.com/who-sank-the-south-korean-warship-cheonan-a-new-stage-in-the-us-korean-war-and-us-china-relations/
Here is a small portion:
Nearly two months later, the elaborate political choreography of explanation and blame for the disaster continues on the part of North and South Korea, China and the United States. The stakes are large: ranging from an easing of tensions on the Korean peninsula to a new stage of fighting in the Korean War. With polls in early May showing that 80 percent of ROK citizens believe that the sinking was caused by North Korean attack, tensions have remained high. While segments of the US, European and Japanese mainstream press have exercised caution in jumping to the conclusion that a DPRK ship had attacked the Cheonan, the international media have shown no interest in following the leads opened by South Korean media and citizen researchers. The article that follows does not resolve the case by any means. But it exposes anomalies in official accounts and invites scrutiny of a range of intriguing issues that call for further investigation.
Gillian, you’re not taking that speculative conspiracy theory propagating piece seriously, are you? The US military might be able to lie about the deaths of a few men like Pat Tillman, but to cover up dozens of casualties from the sinking of a sub? Highly unlikely. And consider the Korean source of the speculation: the Jaju Minbo. The name is a giveaway to its editorial stance. KBS news footage is cited, but without seeing the original, I am skeptical of Jaju’s analysis.
Sonagi, you mean the Jeju People’s Daily might want to turn suspicions away from North Korea as the culprit? Why would the Jeju People’s Daily want to do that? Could somebody explain why the Jeju People’s Daily might be biased against the United States and for North Korea? That sort of bias would suggest that the Jeju People’s Daily is a leftist rag, but is there any reason to think this of the Jeju People’s Daily? I’ve never before heard of the Jeju People’s Daily and now know only the name of the Jeju People’s Daily, so I’m just asking an honest question about the Jeju People’s Daily. Does anybody know anything about the Jeju People’s Daily other than its name, Jeju People’s Daily, which unfortunately doesn’t tell us very much.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Jeju? The Romanized name is Jaju, or 자주 in Korean, meaning “self-reliance.” I had a look at the website to check the evidence from the source and located two relevant videos more than an hour long each. After several minutes of watching two men blather on and seeing no video equipment in the background, I could endure no more. Even you don’t read a word of Korean, the photos on the main page should clue you in. My Norton Anti-virus software didn’t like the website, either.
http://www.jajuminbo.net if you must see for yourself
the us military and gov’t can lie about a lot more than the deaths of a few men bro. it turned out that the us military and gov’t left a bunch of POWs in vietnam, then covered it up and lied about. and they accused anyone who brought it up over the past decades of engaging in conspiracy theory. even john mccain and john kerry were involved in covering it up man. and the mainstream media wouldn’t cover the issue either.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn05282010.html
this article came out like 2 years ago man: http://www.nationinstitute.org/p/schanberg09182008pt1
and it exposed mccain’s role in the POW coverup. it was investigated by sydney schanberg who’s like a serious investigative journalist. the mainstream media didn’t cover sh*t about it cuz they’re such tools.
Apologies for the misspelling. The website that you link to is the same one that I found.
At any rate, I was being ironic, for the leftist character of that newspaper is quite obvious.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Bush planned the sinking of the Cheonan in order to start a war for oil off the coast of NK.
That criminal mastermind has stuck again.
As usual, the wingnuts can’t come up with anything more chilling than the truth, which is that HAVING ONE OF THEIR SHIPS TORPEDOED IS APPARENTLY NOT ENOUGH TO REMIND SOUTH KOREANS THAT THEY ARE STILL AT WAR.
Brian Myers said it much better than I yesterday in the New York Times, with considerably less capitalization:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/28/opinion/28myers.html?hp
Don’t apologize to me, Jeffery. It’s the barely respectable Jeju Sori whose good name you impugned.
B.R. Myers’ latest piece in the NYTimes is indeed spot-on. If say, HALF as many protestors hit the streets, screaming for vengence over The Cheonan as did over American beef imports, or over the accident where two middle school girls were killed by a U.S. tank, that would be the best deterent possible. Also–can’t ROK muster more than 200 protestors around the Chinese embassy, demanding that they stop supporting those thugs? Yes, yes, wouldn’t do any good anyways, but where’s the outrage?
Would it be possible to put all of these Nork sympathisers on a boat and float them into NK waters where they could be repatriated into their socialist utopia?
China cares very much about its image abroad and is very sensitive to public demonstrations critical of China. Remember the Olympic Torch relays, anyone? It would be worthwhile for Korean citizens to show their anger to the Chinese government. In the end, it probably won’t influence decision-making, but the Chinese government will see its goodwill diminished as a consequence of its support for North Korea.
Here yet is another `statement’ -
http://www.seoprise.com/board/view.php?table=seoprise_12&uid=154146
mazef: thanks for sharing that last link. It’s disturbing to know that a member of the investigation committee believes there was no explosion and we are being lied to (his theory is that the simply Cheonan ran aground in treacherous waters).
JoongAng Daily has two stories in English about Mr Shin going back to May 14 and 15. (http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2920461 and http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2920467).
In the first:
and from the second:
Ok, so he seems to be far from the truth here.
BUT on another level, I see men like Shin and theories like his as being inevitable in almost ANY man-made disaster.
Have a look at almost every big event since the Kennedy Assassination, and you will find someone with lines and circles drawn on photographs to draw counter-factual conclusions. Remember the French philosopher who argued that it was a missile that hit the Pentagon, not a plane?
In fact, let’s extend it further. Forget just disastrous situations – there is a conspiracy theory in just about everything. The Scientologists believe that the wars around the breakup of Yugoslavia were the results of psychiatry (Karadzic was a psychiatrist and Milosevic was said to have been his patient). The Larouche followers believe the Queen of England is in charge of the world’s illicit drug trade, there are those who believe Princess Diana did not die as we are told she did, there are those among us who beleive Obama is a secret Muslim who was born in Kenya.
What is most fascinating about all this is that they often use exactly the same evidence to lead to radically different conclusions.
With such flimsy reasoning and silly proofs displayed here, I’m surprised Capricorn One isn’t used as a documentary in Texas public schools. Look, righty-tighty wingnuts, loons are beaten with evidence, not by invective. Go find some, or leave your spleen home.
Thank you, mazef.
#25,
Well, there is a very logical explanation for the scratches. The two halves found far from one another, which means that at least one of the two pieces was dragged along the seabed by the currents.
FYI the conspiracy theory is supported by a majority of the professional Korea studies specialists in Russia (myself excluded). Nearly all people who occupy the key positions in the “official” Korean studies and Korea watching (heads of the relevant departments in the government-funded think tanks, a “Korea man” in the one of two official wire agencies etc) publically advocated the conspiracy theory – admittedly with varying degree of certainty.
The reasons? Largely knee-jerk anti-Americanism, Lee MB is seen as a pro-American, and everybody (in present-day Russia) knows that those power-hungry and perfidious Americans always do all kinds of dirty tricks to promote their worldwide domination. NK is increasingly seen as a victim of the American bullying, a small brave country which does not bow to pressure. This constitutes a great contrast with the Soviet times when the attitude to NK was much more critical.
So, an otherwise serious and thoughtful journalist, a fluent Korean speaker, recently wrote in his blog that this is likely to be a provocation aimed at regime change in NK and eventual unification of the country under Seoul control (he explains that “no other form of unification is acceptable to them [nasty twoo-legged-wolf-like-American-bastards], since this the only way to keep American domination over peninsula”).
Am I annoyed? Yes, extremely so. Do I write on these issues in Russia? Yes, I do, and a lot more than I probably should (every article written in Russian means an article non-written in English and Korea). But this is a reality of present-day Russia whose political and intellectual elite chose to live in a dream world.
Is there any reason representatives from China weren’t included in the international investigation team? Surely it would have made sense to include them?
It does not matter who did what.
CheonAn is a great opportunity to
1) Press China to define its relationship with Kim Jongil
2) Have SK people to recognize that NK can attack any time
3) Stand up to KJI and tell him to shove it
4)Reassess the 2012 transfer of WarTime command
5) Strengthen US-Korea relationship.
The Hitler in the North may have successfully carried out CheonAn and hid details. We have to press him to fess up, even with “enhanced” evidences.
Punish him for what he is. Just s*** on his head. And, on his son, the future dictator. Truth does not matter.
. . . and as Dr. Lankov knows quite well, this unjust vitrol comes amidst some of the most heinous and outrageous criminal activity from the governing clique in Russia. For Russian journalists to make such egregious claims is sad and apparently safer to do since they dare not mention the problems of their own country without having their legs broken or being shot.
The likelihood of China signing off officially on a report blaming North Korea would be low, regardless of the evidence. The opportunities for China to access classified information would be high. The ROK and US governments were wise not to include China.
Dr. Lankov, would you please link again to your Russian-language pieces?
“REVEALED: If Cheney Had Gotten His Way, We Would Have Gone To War With Russia”
http://www.businessinsider.com/dick-cheney-wanted-to-go-to-war-with-russia-2010-2
US Troops and Missiles Deployed in Poland
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/05/28/Russia-objects-to-Patriot-missiles/UPI-70091275081293/
“Is there any reason representatives from China weren’t included in the international investigation team? Surely it would have made sense to include them?”
Hey, as the Korean Defense Minister said about including NK in the investigation team, would you include the suspected murderer in the murder investigation?
For all we know, China may have directed the CheonAn, even providing the technology. China and Russia want NK as it is. They will probably blog CheonAn resolution in UN, unless pushed by the US.
These two rogue countries have made KJI and they use him to their advantage, forever messing up NK people.
Let freedom ring!
Something the conspiracy theorists seem to forget is that the ROK Government wasn’t the only participant in the investigation. For a cover up to work, you would have to get active participation from the ROK Government (not well-known to keep secrets long), the US Government (also has a bad track record of keeping secrets), the UK Government, the Australian Government, the Canadian Government, and the Swedish Government. Good luck trying to get all those different national interests aligned to support a lie.
What also is interesting to note is that the Cheonan investigation team provided a very thorough briefing on its findings, to include a very lengthy scientific explanation of how they could positively link the torpedo body to the explosion. The conspiracy theorists give us…nothing.
I find it very hard to believe that Shin Sang-cheol participated in the investigation. Both his theories were effectively put to rest by the media immediately upon seeing the Cheonan. The sonar dome was not crushed, the shafts were still in good shape, and the damage to the ship was in the middle. It is impossible to have those three things happen if the ship hit a subsurface object. Also the pictures shown on TV clearly show that the damage was under the ship, not crushing damage from an accident. Finally, how do any of the theorists explain the presence of a North Korean torpedo that was scientifically proven to have been in the same blast that sank the Cheonan?
#37
The Poles had been angling for a US military presence for years owing to a well-founded historical mistrust of its large and menacing neighbor to the east. No perfidious, dirty tricks to see here.
#40
the russians have a well-founded historical mistrust of the US as a large and menacing power as well bro. when the russians sent missiles to cuba the US got pissed too. if the russians set up missiles today in mexico, which also has a well-founded historical mistrust of the US as a large and menacing neighbor, the US would get pissed too and consider it a hostile move man.
Why do I feel like I’m reading the script to Jashin and Ted’s Excellent Adventure?
#36, 37,
Nah, man. Russian conspiracy theorists aren’t on to something, they are attacking the softer target. They know they’d get a knock at the door in the middle of the night if they ever criticized Putin.
“What also is interesting to note is that the Cheonan investigation team provided a very thorough briefing on its findings, to include a very lengthy scientific explanation of how they could positively link the torpedo body to the explosion. The conspiracy theorists give us…nothing. ”
This is untrue. The report made by the investigators said:
“The torpedo parts recovered at the site of the explosion by a dredging ship on May 15th, which include the 5×5 bladed contra-rotating propellers, propulsion motor and a steering section, perfectly match the schematics of the CHT-02D torpedo included in introductory brochures provided to foreign countries by North Korea for export purposes.”
The problem is, it doesn’t. And people have made clear illustration of the ways in which it does not.
Not the end in the picture, though. That’s the stern. It was the other half that moved.
Han bites dog: do you support Shin’s conclusion that the Cheonan simply ran aground and broke up, as on a reef?
What I find most alarming is that the evil US-ROK cabal was able to remove the stealth reef under the noses of the international inspection team and the 100s of fishing boats that traverse those waters every day.
Hamilton: good point. I was thinking the same thing.
Ok, let’s say that the Cheonan hit a shallow reef and broke up.
How then was it possible for both parts of the ship to drift so far from the reef and sink so deeply? (what was it – 60 meters?) What the hell happened to the reef?
In the photos of ships broken up on reefs that Mr Shin showed in his open letter to SecState Clinton, those ships are still there – RUN AGROUND ON A REEF! The idea that the ROK government could materialize – and then DE-materialize – an entire reef is reminiscent of when the North Korean Red Cross delegation visited Seoul in 1972. The North Koreans accused the south of having all the cars in the nation driven to Seoul for the occasion, just to impress them. Yi Bum-suk, one of the SK chief negotiators, reportedly said, “that was nothing – you should have seen the trouble we went to to bring in all those high-rise buildings!”
)
Over-reaching Yanks, Poland is for Russian (and German) machinations.
Alliance of the Three Black Eagles, the three partitions of Poland, Congress Poland, November Uprising (1830), Vistula Land, January Uprising (1863), Polish–Soviet War, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, People’s Republic of Poland
#44 You didn’t watch the press conference, did you? One of the reporters asked this very question, which led to a 10-minute discussion of all the testing that was done, the results of those tests–with graphs, charts, and video–all of which prove that the torpedo was in fact in the same blast that sunk the Cheonan. There were no further questions from any of the reporters present–foreign and Korean–on whether that was the torpedo that sank the ship.
“the results of those tests–with graphs, charts, and video–all of which prove that the torpedo was in fact in the same blast that sunk the Cheonan”
That has nothing to do with what I said. The found torpedo is not the type they are saying it is. That’s the point.
#51 — According to what source?
Do you support Shin’s conclusion that the Cheonan simply ran aground and broke up, as on a reef?
I think he’s arguing that it ran aground and then freed itself. But the argument made by Shin and others for what DID happen isn’t altogether cogent and certainly has holes in it. By the standards of the aims of the investigation (to find cast-iron proof of what happened) well, it certainly doesn’t meet them. One example is the huge flash of light witnessed from the shore.
The trouble is the investigation has factual errors and omissions in it that undermine the credibility of the report. This is a report claiming irrefutable evidence that the north is linked to the torpedo attack on the Cheonan, and some of the facts are central, not supplementary.
It seems nobody wanted to include any conflicting evidence, so they just left it out, and nobody planned for a situation where the evidence was inconclusive. The conclusions they come to are that they’ve found a torpedo and it must have been the North. They’re not sure what kind of torpedo it is, but it’s definitely a Northern kind, because what other kind would it be. That’s not the irrefutable evidence they want. It’s unfortunate, but they should have been prepared for it, because if it’s a scientific investigation they should have had a null hypothesis.
#51 — According to what source?
Look at the pictures in the first link. They are not the same. You can see for yourself.
Included in conspiracy theory stories circulating on the internet are graphics comparing and contrasting parts on the torpedo with a model of a CHT-02D.
There are thousand details and thousand different explainations on each side.
Come back to the main question: Who killed those sailors? Can I ship be ripped apart by natual causes so fast so that sailors had no time to react?
C’mmon. There was an explosion. An explosion caused by an attack.
And, who would do that to a Korean Navy ship? NK!
Even if it was not NK, I think this incident should be used against NK. And, against China.
This will work to free NKs eventually. And, I want that.
#53 “The trouble is the investigation has factual errors and omissions in it that undermine the credibility of the report.”
What are those factual errors and omissions? What is your alternative explanation if you think the Cheonan task force team–working with intelligence information that cannot be shared with the public and scientists with direct evidence to the information–is wrong; do you think a German submarine sank the Cheonan, as some of the conspiracy theorists seem to believe? Did the Cheonan task force team just arbitrarily choose the CHT-02D rather than choosing any of the other torpedo types that North Korea has; and are you basing that belief on a graphic that may or may not have been deliberately vague due to the way the ROK Government acquired it? How do you think the ROK Government managed to find the blueprints for the torpedo, Googled it?
This is typical conspiracy mongering. Hang out at any of the “pro-conspiracy” website—whether its JFK, the moon-landing, 9/11, Roswell, shape shifting reptilians who parade around as world leader, the NWO, or whatever—it’s all the exact same crap.
They start with a false dilemma: “it’s either the ‘official story’ or my harebrained plot cooked up after popping an acid tab in my parents’ basement. Then, they begin anomaly hunting—searching for little things that don’t conform 100% to what their own expectations of what such an event would look like. After producing a long list of “anomalies” they declare the “official story” a lie, and therefore, by the principle of negating the disjunct, the conspiracy must be true.
The problem, as Creighton, Shin, Yu, and others run into, is that they provide no evidence to support their own hypothesis. The question isn’t one of “either/or” but rather “to which hypothesis does the evidence best fit?”
Well, Russia Today weighs in with Wayne Madson, a rather respected reporter….
http://rt.com/Best_Videos/2010-05-29/chonan-attack-us-china.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/social.media/05/31/south.korea.twitter.sunken.ship/
“South Korea’s defense ministry will show wreckage of a sunken ship to a group of Twitter users in an effort to dispel doubts among young skeptics about its investigation blaming North Korea for attacking the vessel, state media said Monday.
Twenty users of the microblogging site will have a chance to review the evidence Friday after applying through the defense ministry’s Twitter page, the Yonhap news agency reported. A group of college reporters and defense bloggers will also be invited to the presentation, which is part of a push to win over younger skeptics, Yonhap said.”
Go for it, skeptics!
Oh yeah, that would convince me. Oye.
Per #54, Here is a valid link to pictures:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2517243/posts
Per this site:
I notice that “jackass” claims the actual torpedo is different from the blueprint. The blueprint is for an export version of the North Korean torpedo that came from a presentation given to overseas buyers. The actual torpedo appears to be different only because it is not an export version of the same design, i.e., is most likely North Korean standard design. Variations in weapon design do not surprise me since that is very common.
Again, you have no contradictory proof and no valid reason
To really make a point regarding conspiracy theories and out-right attempts at misinformation, consider this craphole of a blog for an excellent example of rumour mongering and misinformation entitled “Did an American Mine Sink The South Korean Ship Cheonan?” Please notice the links in the side panel on the right of this blog too so as to really give you the full roasted flavour of conspiracy crap:
http://www.socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/did-an-american-mine-sink-the-south-korean-ship-cheonan/
I would not be surprised to learn that the Chinese and North Koreans are both busy trying to put anonymous internet posts about this nor would I be surprised to learn that agents of China were behind the Korean and Taiwanese “Mad-cow” protests since they have a vested interest in pushing American influence (military bases) out of what they believe is their sphere of influence.
The actual torpedo appears to be different only because it is not an export version of the same design,
So it’s a different design? What design is it the same as, then? That’s the question the investigators have to answer. They’re the one who is saying the case is proven, not just on balance, but without any doubt at all.
The skeptics are saying that level of proof has not been established.
The conspiracy theorists? Well, sometimes they’re right. And more often they’re not. What was that you were saying about China being behind the mad cow protests?
“The question isn’t one of “either/or” but rather “to which hypothesis does the evidence best fit?””
It’s a scientific investigation, so the hypotheses should be null.
But if you just want them to come up with the most reasonable explanation, they could have just said “despite the Cheonan calling itself in as grounded around the same time, we conclude that the Cheonan was sunk by a torpedo, most likely a North Korean one.”
Han: so are the Swedes lying too?
Per “han”, you apply misdirection to aid your fallacious contentions.
I said “I would not be surprised to learn” of China’s role in all of this was not benign, and that seems far more likely than your baseless notions of global conspiracy.
It is a valid assumption to make that the export version of a weapons system is different from the standard domestic versions used in the country of origin (ask a knowledgeable military guy). That torpedo is close enough to the export version to satisfy me. Let us know if you find a more reasonable explanation that does not strain credulity.
I heard it was American Hegemonists who killed Julius Caesar, sank the RMS Titanic disguised as an iceberg, forced Canadians to club baby seals, and even masqueraded as Japanese scientists in Unit 731 in Nanking…
Or something like that…
Kim Jon Il, Hugo Chavez, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad all told me, so it must be true…
R. Elgin:
You hypothesised a conspiracy (that the Chinese were behind the mad cow protests), which is more than I have.
Has it occured to you that if the North sunk the Cheonan there might not actually be proof?
I’m glad you agree that the torpedo found is the same as a different design. Let me know if anyone comes up with proof that doesn’t strain credulity.
Han bites dog: you never answered the last time, so I will ask again:
are the Swedes lying too?
And I add a further question: the Russians are now here to investigate the investigation. Why would they be allowed to do so if this was all a sham?
“You hypothesised a conspiracy”
No, “han” I said I would not be surprised for such to be so. Saying I suspect such is not the same as saying it is.
Is misquoting me the best evidence of anything you can come up with?
Don’t quit your day job unless you do this sort of thing for 50 cents a post.
are the Swedes lying too?
Well, it’s a false question because I haven’t said any one is lying. I have said that the torpedo in the design pictured don’t match the found torpedo. They still don’t, but I now think that is because the (South Korean) additions to the design are not drawn properly.
And I add a further question: the Russians are now here to investigate the investigation. Why would they be allowed to do so if this was all a sham?
The Russians had wated this as a condition of assent to further action. If they hadn’t been allowed, they wouldn’t have supported the action. If they come to a different conclusion to the report ( and they still might, whatever their agenda) and refuse to support the South, it won’t be much of a loss compared to them being denied access and refusing to support the South.
No, “han” I said I would not be surprised for such to be so. Saying I suspect such is not the same as saying it is.
You are right, I was wrong to use the word hypothesise, it wasn’t what I meant and I apologise.
But you accused me of having notions of conspiracy, when I have not expressed any such thing.
@ Han bites dog:
I haven’t the patience to ascertain whether you are backpedalling or just being wishy washy. Clearly there was an implication that the public was being misled about the origins of the torpedo found under the sea.
@Han and other skeptics, please see the interview here with the only survivor of the 1996 North Korean submarine incursion of South Korea:
http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk02500&num=6445
Pay particular attention to the last paragraph (thanks, Craaash).
Dr. Lankov, can you link to your recent Russian-language writings please?
dogbertt, Вы говорите по-русски? Да? Нет?
“Clearly there was an implication that the public was being misled about the origins of the torpedo found under the sea.”
That was what Willyloman said outright. It wasn’t an implication. It wasn’t something I have implied because it’s perfectly possible for the public to be misled without being lied to.
But I have changed my mind on the picture. Why? If you look at the expanded version at the link below you can see that the outline highlighted does not include the drum that the propeller blades are attached to (it’s represented in the cross section by two spikes jutting out of each propeller, in aspect this would be cylindrical). It was a bad idea, as well, to do half of the drawing as it would look in 3D and half in section.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2517957/posts
to dogbertt (77)
With pleasure
))
I suppose you know tttkkk.livejournal.com Here you’ll find a link to a small piece at the R.edition of Forbes. Check Slon.ru, I wrote about Cheonan there as well. And, of course, there are two pieces at the ‘New Times’, but I think it’s “subscribers only” site. This is what I wrote on Cheonan. If you ask about more general things. start from polit.ru, they have a page with some of my writings and presentations.
The cross sectional drawing does not match the torpedo. While the drawing shows the single propeller driven torpedo, the actual one is designed to be driven by coaxial contra-rotating propellers. The section 3 is a gear transmission to rotate the inside propeller in the opposite direction from the outer propeller which is directly driven by the motor shaft.
What appears to be an outer propeller in the drawing are stationary guide-vanes. The single proppeller torpedos are simpe in design and easy to manufacture. However, they are less powerful and produce asymmetrical torque to rotate the torpedo itself, thus requiring large fins as shown in the drawing. The drawing does not show any gear transmission device. I am not trying to refute any South Korean claim. They simply could not produce any drawings matching the torpedo.
Most likely true because South Korea does not have a sample of all North Korean armament or weapon systems. Because the schematic is from the export version of a North Korean torpedo, the presentation should have explained the apparent difference. It is similar enough so as to lead one to reach the conclusion that we are looking at a variant type of weapon.
I hope the twitter-guys bring up this point during their session and have it clarified too.
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