Again, apologies for the lack of posting from yours truly, but the good news is that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
- OK, so the KT talks with Victor Cha, who seems to think we need to “reestablish deterrents for North Korea.” Said Cha, “North Korea is now apparently doing the one thing we thought they were deterred from — conventional war.” I’m not sure what he means here — North Korea was never deterred from doing this sort of thing, as four dead ROK sailors killed in 2002 will attest, so there’s nothing to reestablish. Cha is also in favor of delaying the transfer of wartime operation command (a.k.a putting off one of the few positive legacies of the Rumsfelt Pentagon), something he goes into at length in Ye Olde Chosun here. I’d have an easier time delaying the thing if I actually trusted the parties involved to get the thing done.
- Seoul’s going to send a letter to the UNSC regarding the sinking of the Cheonan. All I could think of was this.
- On a stronger note, though, the government is also considering suspending all inter-Korean projects, with the exception of Kaesong. Needless to say, this makes the Hankyoreh very, very sad (Marmot makes a sad face).
- Unlike Keith Olbermann, I don’t hand out “Worst Person in the World” awards, but if I did, this week’s winner would be Marmot favorite Selig Harrison, who starts off an op-ed in the Hani thusly: “I don’t know whether North Korea torpedoed the Cheonan, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. Lee Myung Bak has invited retaliation by repudiating the commitment to coexistence and eventual confederation enshrined in the two summit declarations negotiated with Kim Dae Jung and Roh Moo Hyun.” Wow. He does say, though, “This is not meant as an excuse for the North if it is proved guilty.” OK…
- Let’s not forget that today is the 30th anniversary of the Gwangju Uprising.
{ 186 comments… read them below or add one }
Say… what are pieces of a Chinese torpedo doing nearby the Cheonan?
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/05/18/2010051800420.html
Here’s another:
http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/17/north-korea-conflict-chinoy-opinions-contributors-mike-chinoy.html
Writing in Forbes, Mike Chinoy tries to put the onus for the Cheonan sinking and other North Korean provocations on Lee Myung-bak’s post-Sunshine policy.
Superficially, he’s correct. But here’s what I don’t understand about these pro-engagement types: why are they so quick to put the blame on the South, but not the North? It’s the North that is making provocative gestures, not the South. The North is a state controlled by people who both react and make policy. North Korea is not a giant computer that only reacts. The North, who has been making genuinely belligerent moves, is even guiltier of the downturn in inter-Korean relations. Why don’t these guys hold them to the moral high-road? And if they’re not a state capable of taking the high-road, then what kind of partners in peace can they be?
The other salient point is that the Sunshine Policy was a broken policy. When something is broken, you fix it.
@WK,
That would be a torpedo (possibly) made in China. The difference is small, yet big.
“why are they so quick to put the blame on the South, but not the North?”
Let me take a crack at it…It accomplishes two things:
1) it makes for a strong argument against a military strike, which would cause, at the very least, a diplomatic rift between the US and China…which would negatively affect the already shaken US economy.
2) (and this is linked to my first point) it makes South Korean products slightly less attractive to American consumers.
The only pundits who regularly get invited back to Pyongyang are people who carry water for the regime. Both Harrison and Chinoy were journalists who for much of their lives gathered facts and observed behavior that completely undermine the cases they now make.
One thing that has always bothered me about the Cheonan is the fact that it was sunk in what any non-prejudiced person would consider to be North Korean waters. The sea-border is not recognized by the North, and rightly so–as this diagram makes clear. The ship was far, far closer to North Korean land than South Korean land. Those men should not have been put in harm’s way by the South’s aggressive maritime borders policy. What happened is truly, truly sad.
“Rightly so”? According to whom? There’s an entire historical context that you are ignorantly ignoring in favor of your specious proximity “argument”. The DMZ isn’t a recognized “border” by the north either (or the south, for that matter), and Seoul is closer to the northern side than it is to the greater portion of the southern part of the peninsula. I guess ROKGOV should just hand-over the keys to the NORKS and leave quietly, then. George Orwell had some choice epithets for sentimentalists like you.
Except for the all signatories to the Korean War Armistice Agreement, including the North Koreans. Paragraph 13(b) specifically awards Baekryeong to the South. The Cheonan was sunk less than one nautical mile from the shores of Baekryeong. One mile is less than twelve miles. So actually, the waters were clearly South Korean.
Hmnn, if what Chinoy writes in his Forbes article is correct and there isn’t substantially more to add to the progression of events he outlined, I would have to conclude that LMB is at least partly to blame for the Cheonan disaster.
It is remarkable that Chinoy would take such a view. Perhaps he subscribes to the view, unfortunately shared by so many, that the North is crazy and unpredictable. Which makes it awfully hard to ascribe responsibility or accountability to them for any actions they take.
Actually, he says that N Korea *is* to a great degree predictable which is the basis of his argument against LMB. So to re-iterate, once LMB decided to “unilaterally” ignore RMH’s agreement with KJI regarding the NLL border, one can reasonably expect that KJI would step up military confrontation in that area, which is precisely what happened.
북한, 정신 좀 차려야 한다 (N.K should get its head straight) is what LMB says
Pro-enagemenet types like myself, we subscribe to the view that North Korea is not one evil entity but is a a system of delicate eqilibrium, and that we hate the circumstance, but do not want to give up on the people of North Korea who are under the control of a runaway regime.
I guess I would rather see a peaceful drawn-out end to the problem at all cost than something that would endanger the stability of either side.
The reason we do are quick not to “blame” the North which is what confounds many of our critics, is that there is no one substantial to blame, apart from Kim who-knows-what-he-is-thinking JungIl, and that is a futile exercise. Last but not least, because we subscribe to the view that one single dramatic “blaming” of Kim Jungil rendered all the giving up till that point futile anyway.
@ # 3,
Okay. What are the North Koreans doing with a Chinese torpedo?
@12:
Yeah, I think we’ve heard this one before — “hate the sin but not the sinner.” The problem is that for all intents and purposes, KJI and his government represent the North Korean people, so for the time being, it is impossible to separate the two until, for lack of a better word, regime change occurs. On the other hand, your exhortation to distinguish between the ostensibly good people of North Korea and the baddies in government would work if only the LMB government were an evangelical ministry trying to evangelize the North, but, alas, at the end of the day, I don’t think it is.
@12:
At the end of the day, who wouldn’t. But then again, this kind of sentiment is so par for the course for the majority of peace-luvin’ Koreans, like yourself, who think that ‘freedom is free’ and that by chanting peace-loving mantras and by following Mahatama Ghandi’s/Buddha’s/Christ’s example, South Korea can extricate itself from the current unpleasantness by somehow endeavoring to maintain a ‘good relationship’ with the North, and therefore avoid war and any other unpleasantries on the peninsula at all costs.
But in the words of Colonel “Bull” Simons, let’s not forget:
“History Teaches that when you become indifferent and lose the will to fight, someone who has the will to fight will take over.” (Enter the Spartans wreaking havoc while treading over latte-sipping Athenians.)
Now you don’t have to be Bull Simon or a geopolitical expert to forecast the viability of “…a peaceful drawn-out end to the problem.” On the other hand, anyone who has studied domestic violence, co-dependent relationships, alcoholism & substance abuse, and other case studies of dysfunctional and abusive relationships can correctly predict that outcome of that kind of engagement.
That said, South Korea is like the massively co-dependent battered wife, trapped in an unhealthy abusive relationship with a substance-abusing wife beater of a husband in the North, who blames her (the South) for all his problems.
Of course, the only logical choice is for her is to scream “bloody murder” whenever he violates his TRO (temporary restraining order), i.e., whenever he engages in any unprovoked acts across the NLL/MDL/DMZ, etc., while getting the State’s Attorney office & your entire family to prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.
Why she hasn’t already is beyond comprehension, but then again:
“A nation that draws too broad a difference between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and is fighting done by fools.” –Thucydides (460 B.C.-390 B.C.), on “History of the Peloponnesian War.”
That comment reveals a stunning ignorance in both domestic violence and inter-Korean relations.
“…..but do not want to give up on the people of North Korea who are under the control of a runaway regime.”
That ship sailed early in the 2000s, when it became clear that, even more than in the case of international food aid in the late 1990s, ordinary Koreans were not seeing any benefits from Sunshine Policy largesse.
TK,
There are a lot of problems with 8675309′s last comment from misquoting (or quoting out of context) Thucydides or thinking that the Spartans “wreaking havoc” over the Athenians. Regarding the humbling of Athens… pride and imperialism best manifest in Syracuse and bubonic plague.
Slim, I respectfully submit that:
1. The money given to North Korea under Sunshine Policy is no more than pocket change for South Korea, and hardly qualifies as a “largesse”; and
2. Not having war is a pretty solid benefit for ordinary Koreans.
WK, thanks. I had a feeling that there was something wrong with that. But then again Greco-Roman history is not my strong suit, and as you know, I only talk about the things I know.
Completely unrelated but,
The Hipster Grifter gets a job…
http://www.pedestrian.tv/pop-culture/news/australian-magazine-enlists-hipster-grifter-/15060.htm
If $1 billion + a year in aid was “no more than pocket change” that averted war, then why does South Korea haggle like a Morrocan souk merchant over a $700 million USFK cost-sharing contribution every year?
spelling correction: Moroccan
P.S. to Brendon: Yes, I still read.
That’s kinda messed up taking shots at the good people of Morroco when you know full well that we don’t have any Morroccan readers up in here. Dirty dirty dirty.
Because I’m not in charge of it.
Well, damn, let me be among the first to tip his hat in honor of all the 386 shidae protestors who began Korea’s long but successful road to democracy by taking to the streets in Kwangju on this day in 1980. Even I have to acknowledge that Korea is what it is today because of these “troublesome young activists.”
Geombae!
DLB
Furthermore, it’s not even close to $1 billion. In the 10 years of KDJ/RMH administration, South Korea gave North Korea a grand total of $ 350 million. (Assuming $1 = KRW1,000.)
@15:
This comment reveals the literal nature of tk’s mind as someone who not only has a problem comprehending the figurative nature of similes, but some who also thinks the Onion is cite-worthy news. Anyway, I would love to hear tk’s unique definition of domestic violence and views on inter-Korean relations, which is undoubtedly superior to everyone else.
#17:
<blockquotemisquoting (or quoting out of context) Thucydides or thinking that the Spartans “wreaking havoc” over the Athenians.
wk, try to read in context before jumping to conclusions, b/c if you did, you’ll notice that I’m not making a historical analogy — my Thucydide’s quote, which is correctly quoted as far as I know or as a paraphrase of his actual words, are provided as allusion only, not a historical corollary. (Not all allusions are supposed to be logically or historically perfect.)
Also, we’re not talking about religion, doctrine or dogma here, where Bible verses can be taken out of context by failing to consider what was said immediately after or before, or the context of the entire chapter and verse.)
As I said, the quote re to my Thucydides quote, it is as accurate as I recall (or a paraphrase thereof), and is is only provided for the purpose of allusion.
Same goes with the bit about the North Koreans being like the Spartans and the South being like the Athenians. This is not meant to be taken literally, or as a historical corollary, or as a suggestion that the Spartans ever attacked Athens. If you read my post correctly, you’ll notice that the simile was presented only as a loose comparison between North Korea and Sparta with the South and the Athenian state. Anyways, can you give me an example of any simile that is supposed to be taken literally?
@15:
This comment reveals the literal nature of tk’s mind as someone who not only has a problem comprehending the figurative nature of similes, but some who also thinks the Onion is cite-worthy news. Anyway, I would love to hear tk’s unique definition of domestic violence and views on inter-Korean relations, which is undoubtedly superior to everyone else.
#17:
wk, try to read in context before jumping to conclusions, b/c if you did, you’ll notice that I’m not making a historical analogy — my Thucydide’s quote, which is correctly quoted as far as I know or as a paraphrase of his actual words, are provided as allusion only, not a historical corollary. (Not all allusions are supposed to be logically or historically perfect.)
Also, we’re not talking about religion, doctrine or dogma here, where Bible verses can be taken out of context by failing to consider what was said immediately after or before, or the context of the entire chapter and verse.)
As I said, the quote re to my Thucydides quote, it is as accurate as I recall (or a paraphrase thereof), and is is only provided for the purpose of allusion.
Same goes with the bit about the North Koreans being like the Spartans and the South being like the Athenians. This is not meant to be taken literally, or as a historical corollary, or as a suggestion that the Spartans ever attacked Athens. If you read my post correctly, you’ll notice that the simile was presented only as a loose comparison between North Korea and Sparta with the South and the Athenian state. Anyways, can you give me an example of any simile that is supposed to be taken literally?
That comes with the change of government you know, as I have been pointing out (perhaps) too many times now. Roh was going for increase in defense budget, and an increase in ROK army contribution, and an eventual full control of the war time command.
Somehow the right wing government only knows of 사대주의 alliance. It’s Korea’s own mess but they want to lean on US or blame China.
By now I have years worth of paper trail on the Internet. Show me ONE instance in which I indicated that the Onion is a cite-worthy news.
Or are you going to have to resort to calling me 호로새끼 again? Go ahead and do that, because you totally win whenever you call me names after finding them in the dictionary.
Hey TK, shouldn’t you at least preface your comment stating that we don’t automatically trust Chosun’s numbers around here? I thought that was standard procedure…what’s going on man.
She was taking shots at the good souk merchants of Morroco, and they ALWAYS give you a good price, my friend, nothing like the South Korean right wing government.
Morocco – we’ve got an italien situation at hand here.
Yuna is wise, wise, wise, to point out the obvious.
On Capitol Hill in the 1990s, it used to be said of Congressional critics of Pyongyang that they didn’t know anything about North Korea, but they knew they hated Selig Harrison.
These days, it seems the quickest way to discern whether someone knows anything about Korean politics is to ask whether the person thinks Korea’s progressives are anti-U.S. or anti-military. If they say “yes,” then they have fallen for caricature rather than analysis and don’t have the slightest clue what they’re talking about.
The Korea Right is only more pro-U.S. if you define free-riding on defense spending and promoting shinbohomuyokjuui on trade as somehow more authentically “pro” U.S. than increasing military spending, assuming wartime command and control of one’s military forces, and liberalizing the market to balance out — and put a check on — the power of the chaebol.
But if you think popular protests against Mad Cow are the be all and end all of understanding Korean politics, then god help you.
DLB
The $1 billion figure came from
this Reuters story :
$350 million seems way too small for the entire ten-year period.
Largesee = “generous bestowal of gifts.” The Sunshine Policy was the definition of UNREQUITED generosity and it does not really matter here what percentage of GDP it was.
That $350 million is suspiciously small, considering:
-$500 million went to North Korea just to secure the 6.15 summit
-South Korea paid for every bilateral event and meeting, and for North Korean TV access to World cup programming, Olympic uniforms
-The rice “loans” were made knowing that they will never be repaid (and in disregard of the fact that rice is the KPA’s preferred food).
-South Korea accepted uneconomically high prices for Kumgangsan tours, not really asking where the cash went, and then had to subsidize Hyundai Asan to the tune of tens if not hundreds of millions for their losses.
The figure I have in my head, but am too busy to track down at this moment, is like $7 billion before LMB took over. One day we will find out how much went into WMD, Kim family bank accounts and European luxury goods for the connected.
On benefiting ordinary Koreans, I meant helping ordinary NORTH Koreans (sorry there). But still, for South Koreans it is a false choice to say that it was pay North Korea protection money or face war. War after all had been avoided through allied strength for 47 years before Sunshine and for 3 years now after. North Korea knows war will be suicidal.
The Sunshine Policy began as a noble undertaking but was co-opted and ultimately discredited by the North Korean regime. Although some of the fault lies in the opportunistic ego of Kim Dae-jung and a few of his minions, far and away the lion’s share of blame goes to Kim Jong-il and his gangster government.
I spent the heyday of Sunshine in Seoul rather closely engaged in the issue and even got two trips to North Korea out of the process. I fully understand the desire in South Korea to have peace, and to cash that peace dividend check, but the South didn’t get anything for its money but a few hard lessons about the criminal nature of the Kim family regime. Time for a plan B.
The $350 million-for-ten years number came directly from the Ministry of Unification, quoted by Chosun Ilbo (which, as everyone knows, is no friend of KDJ/RMH.) The number includes civilian aid, all the investment made in Geumgang and Gaeseong, and the rice loans.
Adding $450 million in bribe for the inter-Korea summit is a fair point, but that still amounts to pocket change for South Korea.
An short sighted assessment, because more resources for N Korean army means less they need to take away from ordinary N koreans. But I admit I thought like you did until I read Joo Seong Ha’s posts on the matter.
Unfortunately for North Korea, their plan B is/has been the nuclear card all along. Kim and Roh’s plan B was a stronger ROK army. What is LMB’s plan B? Or what is his plan A?
Calculating the amount of direct and indirect aid is mostly art and little science given the nature of the relationship and the clear incentives for both sides (pride for NK, shame/guilt for SK) to conceal and/or minimize the true value.
That being said, $350 million over 10 years is a laughably low estimate and that sounds more like a per year number if all the various avenues were revealed.
You can also add to Slim’s list all the cultural and sports “exchanges” in which SK foots the entire bill regardless of where the exchange takes place and often loads up NK planes or buses with parting gifts as they conclude. In fact I remember reading about an incident several years ago in which a North Korean delegation (can’t remember which type of festival it was) refused to leave because the load of gifts they had received wasn’t considered adequate and they staged a sit-in or tarmac protest until more booty was delivered.
Not to mention the numerous family reunions over the years in which SK also foots the bill and has to pay a king’s ransom just for the privilege and PR value.
You could also easily add a good % of the inter-Korean trade that occurs to that total, as the “goods” coming South are notoriously overpriced and poor quality, but given that any sort of economic exchange is advertised as a positive step forward, SK is more than willing to participate in trade that has little economic value and presents them with a very simple way to shovel more aid north under cover of legitimacy.
Btw thekorean, I’m not sure why you keep mentioning that the aid is “pocket change” for SK. No serious person would argue that SK aid to NK is a significant economic loss for SK, so the impact on SK is largely irrelevant.
The argument is that the pocket change is in fact a lifeline for NK, and ends up paying for things like…say…torpedos.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/magazine/23Race-t.html?hp
Wow. Mulgrew the Head of NYC Federation of Teachers is just plain evil. There’s no other way to put it. I can’t see him being retarded, since he’s the head of an organization, so the only interpretation is that he is plain evil. Sonagi, maybe you’ll be embarrassed to be a public school teacher after reading this. Sorry to say.
“빈방 잡기 힘든 ‘성년의 날’
“Day of Adulthood, when it’s difficult to find a vacant motel room”
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/05/19/2010051900025.html?Dep1=news&Dep2=headline1&Dep3=h1_02
It’s like Peppero Day, except it’s the unofficial official day when 20 year olds go out to have their first sexual experience. Dammit, I only missed it by about 9 years and an intercontinental emigration trip.
Same as DJ/NMH really – minus the ostentatious waving of a sharp stick in Uncle Sam’ face in order to create the (self)delusory appearance of departing from “사대주의”; witness the rapid retreat by NMH from principle of a quick OPCON transfer, the original NMH proposal for which itself arguably was more of a tactical ploy to avoid compliance with US demands for shifting more of the cost of the alliance to the ROK.
.
Since they are, like the rest of the Korean press, careless, if not oblivious, to fact-checking, and matters of accuracy generally, why would anyone rely on them, unless their reports happen to mes with your agenda?
Further to #44, I agree with your defense of the souk merchants of Morocco – with the caveat that comparing their commercial practices negatively with that of most Koreans, regardless of political affiliation, is a scurrilious libel of the Moroccans. I expect those champions of reputational dignity @ Samsung to lead the movement to bring the necessary legal proceedings to remedy this egregious wrong.
Quit giving yourself a thumbs up Sperwer. It really is pathetic. Dogbertt seems to be a fan of doing that too. Ain’t that an interesting coincidence?
Are you hallucinating while you stock those grocery store shelves, JW?
Hallucinating while stocking shelves…hmnn. What a shitty comeback Sperwer, but I guess it’ll have to do for today.
I’ve alway subscribed to the theory that the punisment should fit the crime AND the character of the offender. Hence, some shit for your potty mouth.
So you’re willing to dirty your own mouth for my sake? My goodness Sperwer, should I be honored? Did you really think all that out before belching such a shitty remark from your mouth?
Sperwer is a bitter old man who’s sore because the natives won’t let him dominate the rent-seeking game in Korea like he feels he’s entitled to. And he knows that back home in New York City, where the world’s greatest rent-seekers are, he would be a junior player at best. So he nurses his fragile ego by pumping iron all day and fantasizing about physically assaulting Koreans in the streets of Seoul.
Why? I evaluate myself and am evaluated by others primarily through my own performance and our collaborate performance as a school and a district.
collaborative. Arghhh. My fingers aren’t so nimble. Does Wordpress have a preview button plugin?
Thanks, Joshua, for correcting me in your #8 regarding South Korea’s ownership of Baekryeong. I was actually wondering who had sovereignty over that island, and I also imagined that if it was the South, then I would be promptly corrected by more knowledgeable commenters here at the Hole. Happily, that has occurred.
I confess to being curious about something: is Baekryeong within 12 miles of North Korea?
–
And as for you, Sperwer, your summation of my post, as usual, misrepresents my comment. DMZ may not be recognized by the North, but we don’t see large companies of North Korean soldiers peacefully crossing over the DMZ in broad daylight. The DMZ has a practical reality that the maritime border lacks. Your bringing up the location of Seoul, incidentally, is a red herring.
Well, I said maybe, because maybe you are part of that large group of teachers who can’t get fired even if they get lazy at preparing our valuable kids for a better future.
How so, exactly? You made a bogus argument based on what you now admit was gross ignirance of the relevant facts.
The maritime border, as I adverted to and Joshua has explained, has de jure reality and, while less easily defended compared to the DMZ, as much practical reality as circumstances and 60 years of enforcement – by both sides – permits. The fact that the North violates it from time to time is THE red herring; my mention of Seoul was just intended to ridicule the specious “logic” of your proximity uttelry irrelevant “argument”.
“utterly irrelevant proximity”
@52
Good one, Minjoke. You’re a smart guy, but you’d be more entertaining if you spent more time insulting Sperwer and less time spewing what you see through your 민족주의-fogged glasses.
Maybe you are wrong. Teachers in my state are not members of unions and do not have tenure. Instead, we have continuing contracts, which require full evaluations every three years. Principals have the discretion to put any continuing contract teacher on full evaluation if there are documented areas of concern. Teachers in my district have resigned or been terminated because of unsatisfactory performance. Even in union districts with tenure, teachers can get fired if administrators are willing to document and follow up. This is true in business, too. A friend of mine is in management of a company that is planning to let go 40 competent employees to reduce expenses. To protect against lawsuits for wrongful termination, supervisors will compile a few negative evaluations first before firing.
No way Sonagi, you ain’t getting off easy on this one. Any teacher that’s part of a union that makes it severely more difficult to let go of lazy teachers compared to a regular business situation ought to be ashamed of themselves. That’s the truth.
Teachers often don’t have a choice. I used to work in a union district and was forced to pay hefty union dues. Now I am free to join or not join the local and state teachers’ associations. I do not belong to the NYC Federation of Teachers or any other union, so I bear no collective guilt for this Mulgrew fellow’s words and deeds.
I wasn’t saying you.
JW: it seemed like you were.
But I don’t have a dog in this fight, so – Meh! [shrugs shoulders, walks away]
I’ve been uncompromisingly sharp-tongued and critical, and more interested in being right than popular, since I was in grammar school
That’s rich coming from someone who doesn’t even seek rents, but just spends the proceeds of aboji’s collections reading Paul de Lagarde, Julius Langbehn, and Arthur Moeller van den Bruck et. al. in that basement room in some US K-town where he’s polishing up his own “unique” Korean version of the politics of cultural despair.
And he knows that back home in New York City, where the world’s greatest rent-seekers are, he would be a junior player at best.
Well, between NYC and Seoul, I made enough money – without collecting a cent of “rent” – to retire @ 53. And you’ve accomplished exactly what Minjoke?
I work out to remedy the effects of a long career as an international economic hit man
) and to ensure that I’m around for my current (grammar school student) and as yet unborn children. 
)
I’ve never (physically) assaulted anyone in Korea (or elsewhere), but I have finished every fight that anyone stupid enough to do so has started with me by battering them.
)
Yes, he’s to “blame” in a very, very superficial way. If the bully says “give me money or I’ll hit you,” and the nerd refuses to give him money, then sure the nerd was to “blame,” but morally, it was the bully that was wrong all along. The bully’s actions were entirely of his own accord and no one forced him to give the ultimatum. Likewise, no one is to blame for North Korea’s recent belligerence other than North Korea. President Lee didn’t force the North Koreans to sink the Cheonan, confiscate Kumgangsan assets or start making bellicose statements. They need to be held accountable. Not President Lee.
You haven’t been right about much here. Expats agreeing with you on an expat heavy site is a sign of popularity, not of being right.
I study science, not obscure, ideological historians and polemicists like you apparently do. Hence my empirical bent, in contrast to your sophistry and ideological rambling.
I never said that you didn’t make any money. Rent-seekers have made out like bandits over the past several decades, above and beyond what they’ve normally extracted. I said that you’re sore because the natives won’t let you dominate the rent-seeking game in Korea like you feel you’re entitled to, while outside of Korea you’ve had to be a bagman for the real big-time vultures.
I didn’t ask you whether you’ve assaulted anyone in Korea. I said that you fantasize about physically assaulting Koreans in the streets of Seoul.
“…my mention of Seoul was just intended to ridicule the specious “logic” of your proximity uttelry irrelevant ‘argument’.”
No, Sperwer, proximity is the entire point, as Joshua pointed out in his comment. I happened to be wrong about the Cheonan because I was incorrect about the sovereignty of Baekryeong. I accept correction, even deserved ridicule, but ridiculous ridicule does neither of us any good.
You’re certainly a disinterested judge of that, huh Mr. Empirical? You seem to be the same kind of scientist as Francis Galton and Arthur Lothrop; just inverted.
No, Nathan, the provisions of the Armistice Agreement and 60+ years of practice are the entire point; that was Joshua’s (and my) point.
You are a well-intentioned and intelligent commenter, except when you make statements based upon what is putatively reasonable in a given situation considered in the abstract (and without reference to the well-established fact that the NORKS can’t be taken to behave according to the rules) instead of verifying the context. I take you to task because that’s so disappointing coming from someone capable of so much more.
No. You’re projecting, again, just as you did with those earlier references to obscure writers above. I don’t hold supremacist views, whereas your cosmopolitanism and universalism are covers for the kinds of ideas you’ve imbibed from the obscure historians and scientists you’ve referenced.
Lee Myung-bak’s North Korea policy, while at times misguided and at others not totally coherent, is basically just an improvement on the Sunshine Policy. While the Sunshine Policy called for unreciprocated engagement and lots of peace-and-love granola-nut goodness, Lee Myung-bak essentially said, “We’re willing to continue engagement, but there must be reciprocity.” By most indications, North Korea got angry because the free hand-outs stopped. Why is this such a bad thing? At the end of the day, South Korea is a state, not a charity.
And why does the South keep having to finance the North for the terrible choices it keeps making? North Korea is not a robot. They hold their own destiny in their hands. Their economic misery is 100% totally their own doing; it’s not South Korea’s or America’s fault. They continue to make bad economic choices and they never learn from their mistakes. In the spirit of 8675309’s family analogy, North Korea is like the deadbeat son who keeps stealing money, living on the streets, and remaining unemployed so he can keep up his meth and drinking addiction. The parents—South Korea—keep throwing the son money because they are afraid that without it, he will die and not be able to eat, despite the fact that they know the son is just going to buy drugs (or in North Korea’s case: weapons, luxury cars, Cognac, uranium enrichment facilities). But at some point, the parents, realizing their goodwill is only fueling their son’s decline, have to say, “Enough is enough,” and cut the son off.
I should say: I’m not entirely opposed to engagement with the North. Not at all. But it must be predicated on some type of quid pro quo. Engagement is but one tool in the diplomatic arsenal, but engagement for engagement’s sake is unproductive, and does not work. Reckless engagement, as was the case during the Kim/Noh years was wrong, and like the proverbial parents above, only contributed to the worsening conditions of the North Korean people. You could even argue that the Sunshine Policy made it even less likely that the North would shape-up as it conditioned them to believe that no matter what, there would be a reward forthcoming.
Let me conclude by asking you this: President Yuna, what concrete steps would you take to handle this situation? What measures would you take to protect the population and economy of South Korea, while ensuring Northeast Asian peace and security? What must be done to get the North to reform while at the same time “rehabilitating” the North as a responsible member of the international community?
Sort of sounds like Park Chung Hee’s son.
“No, Nathan, the provisions of the Armistice Agreement and 60+ years of practice are the entire point; that was Joshua’s (and my) point.”
Hmm; fair enough. I wrote my original comment in too much haste.
Obviously, I should have checked on the sovereignty issue–though I was sure that if I was wrong I’d be corrected here, and I was. Proximity, though, is important. Joshua referenced the 12 mile rule, for example, and my original point did also.
If Baekryeong had belonged to the North, I would have stood by my comment, and facetious comments about the distance of the DMZ to Seoul or Pyeongyang would have been beside the point. I hope this clarifies my original thought, based on a glance at a map.
I was wrong on a factual point–my premise–though, and so I am instead singing the praises of the knowledgeable commenters here at the Marmot’s Hole. I’m not really being facetious–a lot of people here, including yourself, are well-informed about the region. I probably deserved my comeuppance. I still think, though, that more prosaic, fact-based comments are preferable to what sometimes transpires here.
Finally, just to remove all doubt, I don’t like the North Korean government. It’s an obscene cartel of gangsters who govern not for their people, but for their own base desires. I hope this government can one day be replaced with something democratic and humane. I wish the South well as they seek to follow up this tragic incident with an appropriate course of action.
An estimate by the current government of aid (support) given to North during the 10 years of KDJ and Roh governments is $6.9 billion (Chosun Ilbo, June 7, 2009), of which 2.9 billion was in cash and $4 billion in kind.
Ok, let’s see what those more positive towards the engagement have to say about these numbers. From a Hankyoreh article (June 27, 2009) we learn that the figures quoted in the Chosun piece are from a booklet published by the National Unification Advisory Council (민주평화통일자문회의), which, according to the article, only intended to smear the records of the two previous administrations. The article says that 83 % of the cash was from commercial transactions, tourism fees for Kumgangsan and Kaesong (DPRK spelling) tourism, “salaries” to (quotations marks added) Kaesong workers, or in other words, from the private sector. Most of the rest was handed over as “social and cultural exchange funds” by NGOs, so all cash that was paid directly from government coffers was the $400,000 that was used to build the facilities for the meeting of dispersed families. (I include here the original sentence from the article: 정부 차원의 대북 현금지원은 2006년 이산가족 화상상봉 장비설치를 위해 이뤄진 40만달러가 유일하다.) Here you see, government cash was given an average of only $40,000 a year to North Korea during KDJ and Roh administrations.
Does that $400,000 per year include the roughly $500 million paid by Kim Dae-jung for the privilege of his first tributary mission?
*sorry…$40,000
I didn’t see the critiques of LMB government’s critique of the sunshine policy to address the issue of the $500 million summit fee. Perhaps it doesn’t fall under the paragraph of “assistance” (지원).
This appears exactly wrong to me. In fact I personally go to lengths to avoid confusing the two. I say DPRK to mean the gov’t and North Korea for the country. The difference between the people and the regime is striking. A quick look:
Markets (장마당) : good for the people, usually bad for the regime
Corrupt officials: overall good for the people, bad for the regime
Free information (and truth): good for the people, toxic to the regime
Heightened military tensions: bad for the people, good for the regime
Defector organizations: good for the people, bad for the regime
Chinese stance on defectors: bad for people, good for regime
Successful succession to Kim Jong Eun: bad for people, good for regime
and on and on… (though it can of course get murky).
I believe it’s crucial to distinguish this way in order to create cogent and effective policies. A response to the sinking of the Cheonan should then be, you guessed it, good for the people and bad for the regime. This means getting free (open) information into N Korea, helping defectors organize and succeed in S Korea, convincing China that the DPRK regime is invalid and bad for everyone, convincing S Koreans of the true nature of the DPRK regime, raising int’l awareness of the human rights situation and so on. I’ll try to expand on this later and what it means with regard to engagement with the North, time permitting.
I don’t know about the “smart” part, but otherwise I agree. Minjoke Empirical’s #52 showed some real potential; in fact it was good enough that I considered promoting him from featherweight to bantamweight. Then Mr. Empirical uttered the pathetic pettifoggery of #67, and I realized he still has no game. So mark him to be sent down to midget or even peewee league.
…….said the old man who spends most of his time here debating Pawi and trying to impress bored expats.
Isn’t it passed your sleepy-bye time, Minjoke?
I agree it’s difficult to put any *moral* blame on LMB in a situation where you’re dealing with the rational pyscho that is KJI, but blame can also have a strategic component, as in “you could have done things differently that would have led to a ‘smoother’ transition to your hardline N Korean policy, and therefore you fucked up”. The simple fact of matter is, RMH entered into that agreement on NLL primarily because as the representative of the interests of S Koreans, he did not want to see S Koreans dead. If Chinoy is correct, LMB unilaterally ignored that agreement, going against S Korean people’s desire to not see anyone die. Therefore he plainly fucked up in the tactical/strategic execution of his duties. Actions directly leading to S Koreans getting killed is the only threshold that the S Korean president should not cross if at all possible, and it seems that LMB was too cavalier in that respect.
So far, I am the only one who cited a number directly from the Ministry of Unification, which is practically the horse’s mouth here. I don’t mind being wrong, but can someone at least point out a more reputable source than the Ministry of Unification to calculate the money that went to NK under the Sunshine Policy? As IHBB correctly pointed out, “money given to NK” is more art than science, but the article I cited at least gives a breakdown of where that money went.
As to:
In fact, “significant economic loss for SK” is a constant refrain coming from Korean conservatives who object to NK aid. And slim’s term of “largesse” was reminiscent of that argument, which is why I emphasized that the money SK spent so far is meaningless (to SK) — which is pretty much what you said.
Slim later clarified that the use of the word was intended to signify that the exchange between SK and NK has not been equivalent, which I agree. So that’s that.
As a Progressive, pro-engagement person, this is a crisis-of-conscience moment for me. There is no denying that NK attacked the Cheonan — and as I said previously, people who doubt that should just shut the fuck up. If one were to argue that this is Sunshine Policy’s comeuppance, I will have a difficult time responding to that.
What hangs me up is what slim said: “Time for Plan B.” What IS the available Plan B here? The Plan B must satisfy these two conditions:
1. There can be no war.
2. The two Koreas must progress toward unification.
To date, the Sunshine Policy is the only policy that even attempted to satisfy those two conditions. So give me a different policy proposal that attempts to satisfy those two conditions, because I am absolutely eager to hear that.
Back in 1989 i witnessed on tv the fall of Ceausescu regime in Romania. The place at the time was some kind of European N. Korea: ruled by an extravagantly corrupted alcoholic lider maximo, desperately poor, hopelessly isolated, even from other authoritarian nations around the world.
The most interesting thing is how the regime came to a halt: all of a sudden while Ceausescu was holding a public speech, much to his disbelief, the crowd turned hostile, overthrew the security forces and in a matter of hours a regime that ruled over the country for decades with an iron fist was gone, vanished like it never existed.
Now i wonder why something like that doesn’t happen with the Norks. I personally think nobody can exercise a power solely based on violence and fear, so some mechanism of consensus must still be alive and relatively well upthere.
I was wondering if it would be possible to identify what holds the KJI regime together and work toward the corrosion of its mainstay.
Provided S. Korean population really know what they want (reunification ? Development as 2 separate but friendly nations ?) out of all this ?
Here is a link from ReliefWeb (run by the United Nations) that cites the KOIS (the official website of the Republic of Korea) as the basis for its statistics.
It cites $227 million in aid alone for a 10-month period of Jan-Oct 2006, as well as an additional $146 million for all of 2005. That would be a total — in aid alone and not including all other avenues — of $373 million over a 22-month period.
It also cites a $1.3 billion figure for the period 1995-2006.
Above in #72, milton mentioned this analogy:
North Korea is like the deadbeat son who keeps stealing money, living on the streets, and remaining unemployed so he can keep up his meth and drinking addiction. The parents—South Korea—keep throwing the son money because they are afraid that without it, he will die and not be able to eat, despite the fact that they know the son is just going to buy drugs (or in North Korea’s case: weapons, luxury cars, Cognac, uranium enrichment facilities).
So TK, when you say this….
…it is basically the equivalent of the parents of the deadbeat son proclaiming that any plan for saving their dumbass crackhead child must satisfy two conditions:
1. He must stay out of jail.
2. He must progress toward winning a Nobel prize in physics.
crackhead : Nobel prize winner
as
destitute totalitarian cult : stable free-market democracy
I don’t think your analogy is correct, for two reasons:
1. NK need not become a stable free-market democracy before the unification. It can be unified first, then progress toward being a stable free-market democracy.
2. SK was also a destitute totalitarian cult about 50 years ago. It turned out fine. It is not easy, but possible.
Yes and a crackhead could technically become a Nobel prize winning physicist before he learns to read…but it doesn’t seem very likely.
The point is that policy should not be guided or constrained by dreamy wishful thinking with absolutely no basis in reality, and unification at this point is exactly that.
NK does not have to be at the same level stability and democracy-wise before unification, but they must at least be in the same ballpark, and right now and for the foreseeable future they’re not even in the same universe, and are in fact moving further and further away from the SK ballpark and not closer to it.
And if in fact they’re not in the same ballpark, the only option is unification-by-war, which violates #1 of your pre-requisites.
An exaggeration but partially true. And yes it is possible for NK to follow the SK model, just as its possible that pawi is elected President of the United States.
It’s surely irrational to look at the evolution of NK through the last couple decades — a constant one step forward and three steps back — and conclude that it resembles forward progress and therefore should serve as justification for optimism as well as policy guidance.
No amount of Sunshine can blind you to that reality.
#88:
Forget it IHBB, you’re casting pearls before swine. As I said before, tk has an inability to grasp any kind of figurative language — whether it be a simple analogy, a simile, a metaphor, a parody, an allusion, an allegory, etc. (Rote memorization trumps rhetoric and logic in the Korean educational system, and high function Asperger’s/Autistics — like tk — cannot comprehend any kind of English-language trope or figures of speech. You have to be literal with him if you wanna get through, otherwise your confusing him.)
You can keep on trying to explain it to him why, but he won’t ever get it — remember this is the same guy who cited an article from the the Onion as if it were a legitimate news source. Unless you explain it to him in his native language in a style he’s accustomed to, like 판 소리, you’re wasting your time.
867,
What you are doing is pure slander at this point. Fuck off.
#89:
WTF? This is the problem with crack-smoking yuhaksaeng — they just don’t know when to quit. FYI, tk, if you really wanna talk about “unification,” you’ll have to go back further in history, like the three-kingdoms period or later. The issue at hand these days, however, is reunification.
LOL! This from a ROK Army draft dodger who has never served a day in his life, yet professes to be an expert on Korea’s military situation? Hilarious! FYI, tk, you don’t even know what a “totalitarian cult” is until you’ve put in your time in the military like the rest of us did, so stop exaggerating. From your point of view as a draft-dodger, the USMC would probably rate as a “totalitarian cult” now wouldn’t it? Get some balls dude, you are a joke.
Why? I am asking seriously.
Are you going to provide something real, or are you going to keep throwing out cheap analogies that are neither here nor there? If you think it is unlikely that NK can follow the SK model (when SK is owning the country,) explain why it is unlikely. I respect you enough to believe that you are capable of that.
#92:
FYI: Slander is spoken; libel is written. Get it straight tk.
Ehm sorry if i set my uninvited foot into this…at this point the level of education between the populations of the 2 countries is so humongous it is very likely it would not be a reunification, it would be a colonisation process.
I’ve never seen any colonisation that was succesful in lifting the standards of the conquered people beyond minimal progresses in basic civilisation
(which admittedly could be an accomplishment considering the current situation of the North)
867, I repeatedly my intent to leave you alone for a while although you keep at your bullshit about your superficial understanding of Korea and Koreans. I even advised others to leave you alone. I did not know that being labeled as a gyopo was such a traumatic event, but man, that must be really burning you up huh?
그냥 좋은 말로 할때 꺼지세요, 네? 졸라 나이 얘기하는 게 눈꼴 사나워도, 결국 연장자를 우대하느라 가만히 있었는데 말이죠. 내가 정말 열받으면 그쪽도 골치아파요. 좋은 말로 할 때 알아들으세요.
…repeatedly *expressed* my intent to…
Gangpeh, nice to see the thoughts on Romania.
Reason the N Koreans don’t rise up: the level of repression is greater and a person’s family is punished for the individual’s “crime.” Also important, isolation is greater and North Koreans have never lived in an open society, at least in modern times.
What could cause the North Korean to say basta? Information, media, DVDs, portable media players, solar batteries, wind-up radios, cell phones… “Portable Sunshine.”
#99:
Interestingly, the NK elite already have all these things, and are hardly on the verge of revolting. And even though they may be finding out little by little how much they’ve been lied to, denial will still be a long and winding river in Egypt for most of them — particularly if the powers that be have the ability to make your entire family+three generations effectively disappear should they hear one peep out of you. So yes, KJI rewards his most loyal subjects with toys from the West, but the price for receiving them is inordinately high.
(IMO, the most insidious thing Kim Il-sung ever did to ensure that the general population would be disinclined to revolt en masse or even intellectually fathom dissent, was by dumbing down the local vernacular decades ago whereby all Hanja was effectively removed from common use, the educational system and officialdom.)
The Yangban did exactly the same thing as Kim Il-sung did — except in reverse — to maintain an oligarchical stranglehold over the general population. By keeping the masses illiterate in Hanja — the written language of officialdom — and by relegating Hangeul for common use only, the masses were effectively kept ignorant and out of government and state affairs.
That said, the only thing that’s going to make the NK’s rise up and say 그만해to KJI et al., is regime change — plain and simple.
8675309, “regime change” isn’t plain and simple to me. Are you referring to war? I’m opposed. If “regime change” includes KJI’s death, then yes, that’s the big chance. Kim Jong Eun will have less ideological sway over the people including those in government and the military.
Second, the elite do not all have those things mentioned earlier, but some do. Also, these aren’t trinkets offered by the tyrant. People are buying media/info tech privately through the illicit trade with China. If you buy or get a radio or TV from an official source in NKorea it is locked to the official station and you have to jailbreak it, risking imprisonment. Officials literally come and check your TV and radio. But either by buying a real media device on the free market or by jailbreaking the “official” one people are starting to get information from outside. This is a relatively new phenomenon (as are mp4 players, prepaid cell phones, DVD’s etc). Contact with the outside on an individual level has just started to get going. Markets are also quite new, beginning only during the “Arduous March” famine of the mid Nineties.
It’s having a huge effect. NKorean attitudes are changing quickly. It’s often difficult for North Koreans to realize they’ve been living a bit part in someone else’s lie, but if open media doesn’t make a difference, then why is the regime so terrified of it?
From a Worker’s Party lecture quoted in Barbara Demick’s 2009 book Nothing to Envy (p.214) which you clearly need to read:
Familialism, the punishment of a whole family for the individual’s misdeed, is a huge stumbling block. But even at the labor camps there are signs of change as officials begin to realize that what they are commanded to do is simply wrong.
When media saturation arrives from the outside then people will speak more and more openly about their true thoughts as the various inminban are themselves “corrupted” and the Tower of Juche of hollowed out. This may, for example, set the stage for a province to essentially break away or for a coup of some kind, or indeed for a sudden and momentous change, perhaps on the death of KJI.
Imagine KJI’s death. All North Koreans will be forced to cry and cry and cry publicly, but unlike during the mourning of his father almost none of the tears will be real. This could be a huge eye-opener and a potentially explosive event. Open media needs entry into N Korea fast to prepare for that time. If a potential rival to the throne believes the people will be on his side, he’ll be more likely to go for it. As bad as any new leader may be, if that leader is not from the Kim family then they can reform. Members of the Kim family cannot reform economically because with trade comes information and foreigners.
Put another way, how do you create 10% annual growth in North Korea? Simple, open the borders and walk away. KJI & Sons can’t do that because information and the truth is toxic to their fraudulent regime. Therefore you send info and free media into the North to prepare the ground and seed change. We don’t know when the harvest will come, maybe soon after KJI’s death, but come it will one way or another. The regime will and is increasingly taking the form of a market bubble — you know it will pop at some point, just not when.
@#91 – Mizar redux?
I really think it is him, now that you mention it. That 호로새끼 came out nowhere, and it’s just weird for a full american born jaemi-gyopo to say something like that.
Our Tommy TuTone fan is not Mizar. Comments about his own background consistently place him about a decade younger than the dick-loving Miguk ajosshi. 867 doesn’t spell like a 5th grader either.
What makes you think he’s telling the truth about his background? And spelling can always be checked. The writing and the crazy arguments are all very similar.
No, the writing styles and comment topics are different. Most of Mizar’s remarks were negative generalizations about Korea, interweaved with snippets of nostalgic praise for Korea in the 1970s, when he was there probably as a GI or Peace Corps volunteer. I don’t recall 867 being especially critical of Korea or Koreans. Why would Mizar-turned-868 start checking spelling? There are plenty of orthographically impaired writers at the Hole, so it’s not like confusing “they’re” and “their” would cause other commenters to jump up and down, screaming, “Look! Mizar’s back.” Mizar posted from New York. 867 identifies himself as from Chicago. I might check old threads from my posts for IP addresses, but I believe they’re two different people.
Mizar would never have spent 50,000 words arguing the definition of gyopo.
Haha IHBB, he would be the *only* one capable of or crazy enough for doing such a thing, in my opinion.
Gangpe brings up some good points about post-unification development and integration. Andrei Lankov has some excellent ideas, including scholarships for North Koreans, strict limitations on South Koreans buying Northern real estate, and all around affirmative action. But of course, all of these are predicated on the idea that the South Korean elite want to bring the North fully up to speed. I’m not saying they don’t, but I see no reason to assume that they do, either.
I once asked my 여친 how long it would take after unification for (formerly) Southerners to look at (formerly) Northerners as equals. She wouldn’t guess at anything specific, but she wouldn’t expect it in any of our lifetimes, if ever.
I also get Mizar neukim from 867′s posts.
If there are differences, then I chalk that up to affectation.
IPs can be faked.
damn I miss Mizar5′s “contributions” to the MH, god rest his soul… it was good fun watching him get so many of y’all’s goats so easily and consistently.
8675309 is not Mizar5.
“otherwise your confusing him”
That’s a Mizar error right there. “your” instead of “you’re”. And 867 has been plenty critical of Korea and Koreans if I remember correctly.
Mizar’s “contributions” — His denying being a troll when people would call him out on it. That’s entertainment for some people here, apparently. But where I’m from, such people are known as “punks.”
I value honesty in people and so I naturally despise those who willfully bullshit and argue for things that they know to be ridiculous. I find no entertainment value in crap like that.
Posts on old threads show geographically distant and consistent IP addresses for Mizar and 867. Won’t argue further with your neukkim.
He was clearly a punk and knowingly full of bullshit. …and a blatantly obvious liar about his background/heritage. But that didn’t stop people from arguing, clearly uselessly, with him. He made fools out of a lot of people who took his bait and engaged him. People lined up for it, and that’s just how he wanted it. I suppose I’d find no entertainment value in that if I was one of those people too (not saying that you were, abcdef, I can’t remember for sure), but I wasn’t.
Calling 867 mizar5 is reaching.
#106 & 112:
I may not be the most popular poster here, and I may not always be glad-handing everything Korea, Inc. does, but as God is my witness — and to the extent that I hate being called a 교포 even though everybody including my own Grandmother says I am — I am most definitely NOT that Korea-hater “mizar.” (I hated that guy’s attitude and comments, btw.)
That said, Sonagi probably has an advanced degree in forensic linguistics or stylometry and works for the F.B.I. or something like that, whereas JW seems to be a practitioner of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning.
Ahhh yes, Mizar was always fond of accusing people of logical fallacy. The latin is right up his alley too.
” post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning…”
LOL. I was just thinking about much of a pain it must have been for Mizer to refrain from the use of his “logic for dummies” handbook.
Didn’t 8675309 come after mizar5 was banned? How would you know about mizar5?
And, again, IPs can be faked. A troll can consistently post from the same proxy. Simple as that.
JW, we “draft dodgers” think alike.
876 is no korea basher though he can be tough on koreans. he’s says his blood is korean and i believe him.
…yes he was. Interesting, but not sold.
#118:
And anyone whose I.Q. is limited to creating such innovative ID’s like “A-G” is probably the same kind of person who consistently uses ’1234′ as a pin number, or someone who can’t seem to summon up enough grey matter to describe themselves creatively if their own life depended on it. Absolutely ridiculous how you keep on going on about it when I already told you I’m not that person.
#117:
Are you sure you aren’t the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeldt brain trust reincarnated?
#120:
고마워 pawi.
you’re welcome. i’m surprised they even bring this up.
those who believe mizar5309 is one person, and 867 came after mizar5 left, google “mizar5 8675309 site:rjkoehler.com” and explain the results.
If, in the future, you can’t distinguish the two, remember one big difference – mizar5 wanted you to think he is a 교포. 867 absolutely does not.
The perfect cover!
8675309 has the same “5″ in his handle as mizar5. They must be the same person.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Yes Jeffery, I noticed that when I merged their (his? HER?!?) names in 124!
My friends, you are not looking deep enough. Hasn’t anyone noticed that the phrase “Tommy TuTone is Mizar” is an exact anagram for “A testimony or tiz’ mum”? Think about it. I cannot think of any better calling card for Mizar5, who was always either commenting (testimony) or self-fellating (mum).
Still not convinced? There are none so blind as those who will not see. Consider this: 8+6+7+5+3+0+9= 38. The numerical value of “Mizar V” is 89. Add these two numbers together and one gets 127. Add 1 plus 2 plus 7 and one gets 10. Get it? 10. TEN.
TEN IS HOW MANY SETS OF RIBS YOU HAVE IF YOU REMOVE SOME TO ALLOW SELF-FELLATING!
What bothers me the most is that we are only seeing these clues because Mizar wants us to. He’s a master manipulator, and if he didn’t want us to have this information, then I assure you friends, we would not. We can only wait and see what diabolical endgame Mizar has in store for us. We are but puppets and pawns here for his sadistic amusement.
Ah, the things we do to pass the time.
He’ll have us all self-fellating before we know it.
Granfalloon also wrote Gravity’s Rainbow. An old mystery is now solved. I’m onto you, Mr. Pynchon!
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Granfalloon, that is pure comic genius.
Gangpah:
Let me recommend to you Brian R Myers’ latest book, “The Cleanest Race.” Will cost you less than US$20 on Amazon.com and you can read it in a couple of days.
He shows that it is not fear that keeps North Korea going, but ethno-nationalism. Fear can only work for so long – witness the South Koreans, now blissfully unafraid (mostly) of a NK attack. Ethno-nationalism is a resilient ideology because it works in ALL economic circumstances.
By examining NK internal (not external) propaganda, you can get a better picture of what makes NK tick. Unfortunately, few people take the time to read/view all that crap. Myers has, and his book is a worthy addition to the field of study. Check it out.
On a related note: Romania’s fall was interesting, at least in party because Ceausescu was said to have styled some of his persoanlity cult on that of Kim Il Sung, after visiting Pyongyang and being impressed by mass displays of people and monuments.
But what about Albania? Don’t you think that the Enver Hoxha regime was the closest thing Europe had to NK, and that the fall of Albania (all those refugees clinging to ships headed to Italy; police armories being raided and people shooting randomly; ponzi schemes all over the country causing amazing loss of money by ordinary people) is in some sense the best adumbration of what could happen in North Korea?
Also, thanks for your point about unification being more like colonization. Expect NK people to be offered work for a pittance at factories and mines – after all, apart from manual labor and crime, what job skills do they have? (* NOTE: I consider myself sympathetic to North Korean citizens. It is just that most of them have not had what we would consider a decent education, and they have become used to scamming the system and working around the rules just to survive.)
@ 8675309 #93
[emphasis in the original]
I think you are being a bit harsh. I would accept both words. The reason being that Korea has never been unified under the borders that will exist when(if) North and South Korea do form a political union. Naturally, the shape of the peninsula has not changed, but the borders with Russia and China have been redrawn somewhat since Korea was last a single political entity, in 1910.
The same argument can be made about Germany in 1990. The single united Germany that existed before 1939 was a very different shape to its current form, so technically it wasn’t a re-unification as such that occurred in 1990. But popularly both terms are used and so I don’t find fault with it.
Neither should you.
Myer’s book is the best addition to the field of North Korean studies to come out in a long time. I very strongly second Hamel’s endorsement.
Ethno-nationalism goes a long way to explaining why North Korea hasn’t collapsed and why we see no real dissent, and why we probably won’t see a bottom-up revolution in North Korea. It’s a very powerful force that appeals strongly to the human psyche. Witness the South Korean ethno-nationalistic left’s behavior in recent years: ignoring the plight of North Korean citizens in favor of vague, abstract notions like uri minjok ggiri, downplaying North Korea’s aggressive acts, riling up passions against Japan and the US, and so on.
Kim Il Sungism (for lack of better term) is more than just an ideology. Although it lacks a spiritual component, the overall world view is a lot closer to fundamentalist religion than a political ideology like communism or liberalism. People generally don’t abandon their religions, regardless of the atrocities committed by their leaders (see, for instance, the pedophile priest scandals: people aren’t leaving Catholicism in droves), but most people were quick to abandon communism and dissent, while minimal was always present (in the forms of jokes or what-have-you). The natural human tendency when confronted by affronts to their world view is to enter a state of cognitive dissonance and then engage in mental gymnastics to try to make the inconvenient thoughts go away. For instance, a lot of NK defectors will tell you they still have a great deal of respect of Kim Il Sung/Kim Jong Il/the system in general, and blame the shortcomings on “petty officials” or whatever. When this is combined with a total information vacuum, pervasive fear, and an “evil” external enemy, it creates very strong psychological motivations to believe in the system. I’d be willing to bet that most North Koreans strongly support their system of government.
I’ll say it for you: BORK!
Sperwer: and that was the second such bork you have done in 2 threads today! WTF? (and I am not referring to the World Taekwondo Federation here)
Just do what I do, copy and paste the tages from below the input box, remembering to insert the backslash in the closing tag.
@milton:
That is exactly Brian’s point: they do in the main support the system, though they may grumble about its inefficiencies. Further, he sees most defectors as economic immigrants, not true refugees. They haven’t really let go of the system in their mind. Even if they hate KJI for his ineptitude, they have been educated for the last 60 years to believe that they are pure and good. You can’t shake that easily.
You betcha. It works every time, because evolution has predisposed us to hang with those similar to us and fear outsiders.
Of course, “this stuff” refers to the Groupthink of Globalist Degenerates.
Ah, little Minjoke Scientistic Empirical has woken up. But apparently he hasn’t got that nipple full of warm
sojumilk yet.By the way, Sperwer, thanks for bringing di Caprio’s “Japanese Assimilation Policies in Colonial Korea 1910-1945″ to my attention. I wasn’t aware that he did any good work after “Gilbert Grape.” That film still gets me choked up.
Seriously though, I am still learning some of this modern theory about history, never having read Benedict Arnold or Eric Frogspawn (huh, born in Alexandria, Egypt, and still kicking at 92!). I am finding it quite fascinating and am absorbing as much as I can. I mainly get this stuff second-hand through either here or other reading I am doing (currently still wading through Schmid’s “Korea Between Empires”).
Question to anyone who cares: has any Korean academic written anything like Schmid’s book? I imagine someone must have – I would like some names and schools.
No; although Korean-American Henry Em, now at NYU, and the author of a first-rate article on Shin Ch’ae-ho, has a BIG book in preparation. I believe it will be a heavily “contextualized”, comprehensive intellectual history of Korean historiography, including perforce its pervasive nationalistic bent
@ hamel&milton: first of all thanks ! You guys rock: i do understand lots of things i never thought about by reading your posts even if both of you write in a style that is difficult to grasp for my simple mind
I just ordered Myers book, i remember it was mentioned before here at the Hole a few months ago and definitely it looks intriguing.
The central thesis you explain so well seems to make indeed a lot of sense, it would explain also the reluctant respect some South Koreans , including some to my astonished disbelief in my wife’s family, seem to hold for one of the most horrid and failed regimes on this planet.
I was also thinking yesterday night that IlSungism was the only dictatorship around the world whose reins of power were succesfully transmitted from the founder to his son.
Could it be that N. Korea represent some abject, perverted, hallucinated continuation of the 조선 rule into the modern world ? Name’s already there.
As for Hoxha’s Albania, sure the comparison holds in terms of isolation from the world and demented cult of personality. Albania though has always been a very weak state divided among ethnic and religious lines with a close to non-existent central government til the Hoxha regime. To this day it is a country somehow “mysterious” even if it did actually vastly improve from the Balcanic chaos of the 90′s, if the North would follow the same trajectory of Albania it would be a great achievement.
One possible outcome me thinks could be an Italian situation (at the time of unification in the mid-’800) with the role of the South and the North inverted, a little known fact is that the Kingdom of Italy for the first 15 years of its united history had to face a harsh guerilla-type civil war in the South, a possibility i wouldn’t write off in the N. Korean scenario in case of sudden regime collapse. And especially if a colonisation process become obvious to the Norks.
pawi: believe it or not one of the most attractive things about Korean culture for me is Hangul, i love its geometrical shape and i think it was a great influence on the development of the whole modern Korean design.
@ 128: that was fuckin’ hilarious
I’ve caught Sperwer’s bork bug.
Sperwer: do you know for sure that no Korean academic has written something like that *in Korean*?
For sure? Are you asking for a guarantee ex cathedra? No, but I’m reasonably certain of it; I would at least have heard of it otherwise.
@134:
Listen hamel, I was in Germany from 1988-90, and I also speak German. And guess what all my German friends from both the East and West were talking about at the time? They called it “Wiedervereinigung”, i.e, reunification. So I don’t know what ivory tower you fell out of, but as far as the masses go, I’ll just go along with what they say — begging your pardon.
8675309:
Na, mach was du willst. Coming from you, a diss is an honor.!
To anybody else reading this, you can see that a united North and South Korea will be the first time that Korea exists as a nation state in that configuration (with those borders), so technically it will be a unification. But of course, it is also a reunification, since the Korean provinces will be reunited. So it is both.
Anyone who accepts only one word is a pedant.
If you guys like Myers’ book you’ll love Barbara Demick’s Nothing to Envy.
http://nothingtoenvy.com/reviews/
Sadly not yet translated into Korean, this is the book that will convert readers of the Hani. I truly cannot recommend it enough. Anyone else here read it?
Robin: I have the book and was at the launch, and have read Barbara’s stories for years. Do you really think a book of stories by defectors will convert the Hani readers? I wish I had your faith. I doubt that “Aquariums of Pyongyang” had any impact on people who were sympathetic to North Korea, and that was written by a guy who had spent years in a prison camp.
I doubt, in all sincerity, that Ms Demick’s book – good as it is – will make any pro-NK person think differently. In fact, it is more likely to be published in a Japanese translation before a Korean one comes out. Watch for it!
Sadly, Hamel, you may be right. I’m envious that you were at the launch btw and it’s nice to hear about another Demick fan.
But I think it’s precisely because the book deals with individuals, is a page-turner and treats all parties fairly that it is both so illuminating and could change hearts and minds if (a huge and admittedly unlikely if) people only read it. I’m testing it out now on a Korean reader. I’ve met some of the more hardcore DPRK-apologists in Seoul (student union peeps) who literally sounded like agents of Pyongyang (who knows…), seemed like they’d be happy to murder me, and clearly won’t be reading Nothing to Envy. But for the more borderline cases the book could be a wake-up call. But your skepticism is clearly back to the warranted.
So then my question is, what would sway SK public opinion? How to get more S Koreans to face facts?
Excuse me, “But your skepticism is clearly back to the warranted” was meant to read “But your skepticism is clearly warranted.”
Yuna, for example, is a perfect candidate for Nothing to Envy.
Grosso modo, yes. It’s old Chosun gone communist-totalitarian.
Is that a pick-up line according to Wangkon @ this comment?
Why not? Bring your “sister” and we can have a group reading.
8765309 (#149), your friends may have called it Wiedervereinigung, but so far as I recall, the process was officially called Vereinigung because only East and West Germany were uniting, not the parts of Poland and Czechoslovakia that had once belonged to Germany.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
On the SK won, much of the weakness (just shy of 1200 per $ now) is likely because of the DPRK, not the eurozone. But a weaker won is good for exporters. Ring the Hanky: the chaebol attacked the Cheonan because they wanted to sink the won and boost exports!
Tensions may hurt Korean stock prices but actually help Korean products and services gain market share abroad… Luckily this comes at a time when oil and other commodity prices are retreating. This is a kind of natural immunity in SKorea’s financial national defense. Up to a point…
#159:
Yes, I agree to the extent that when describing the process of Wiedervereinigung (reunification) in German, Germans use the verb vereinigen (to unite), or describe it thusly: das vereinte Deutschland… as it only makes sense both grammatically and semantically (the majority of Germans today weren’t sentient in 1933 let alone during the during the Weimar Republic, so on 3 October 1990, indeed, it was a majority of the German population who were experiencing a ein vereintes Deutschland (a united Germany), for the first time.
However, as you well know, reunification in Germany was not just a physical issue, as territorial disputes with Poland, Russia, and other neighboring countries were long ago resolved at Potsdam in 1945.
Accordingly, in 1990, I don’t recall one German complaining about having lost the Sudentland, Danzig, Koenigsberg, etc… b/c for modern, well-educated, young Germans, Germany’s reunification was less about territorial disputes and the reconfiguration of borders, and more about the historical, sociopolitical, and cultural rejoining and continuation of a young and modern Germany.
So in that sense, in order to distinguish what happened on 3 October 1990 with the generic sense of the word — unification — that has no special meaning in German, Deutsche Wiedervereinigung is the most apt description and the most correct term to describe the reunifying of the two Germanys. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Wiedervereinigung
(To use Wiedervereinigung and Vereinigung synonymously in first reference, I daresay would cause confusion among most people, including the Germans themselves, although they would probably pick it up on second reference or in an inflected form if you used unification as a verb, adjective, adverb, for example.)
Also the idea that Germany’s reunification is also a “unification” due to the creation of an essentially new German state whose remapped and redrawn borders differ drastically from the Germany of the Weimar Republic, and the Germany of the Third Reich, belies the fact that regardless of how much Germany’s borders have changed, the modern Federal Republic of Germany is the legacy state and the direct descendant of all prior incarnations of Germany. As far as that goes, it also applies to Korea and any issues related to a future reunification http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreanische_Wiedervereinigung — lest we ignore previous incarnations of a previously unified Korean state going back to even before the Three Kingdom Period, before Unified Silla, and before the Goryeo & Joseon Dynasties, and the Korean Empire.
By insisting on the use of “unification” to describe a modern re-mapping or reconfiguration of an ancient country’s borders, we ignore the other more important aspects of reunification that transcend the physical. By recognizing history, and therefore, using the correct terminology instead of making up our own, we respect that culture and show we are cognizant and respectful of that country’s history and language.
Here’s what I was referring to concerning my time in Germany (1989-1995):
For political and diplomatic reasons, West German politicians carefully avoided the term “reunification” during the run-up to what Germans frequently refer to as die Wende. The official and most common term in German is “Deutsche Einheit” (in English “German unity”). German unity is the term that Hans-Dietrich Genscher used in front of international journalists to correct them when they asked him about “reunification” in 1990. (German reunification,” Wikipedia, retrieved May 21, 2010)
For all I know, the term may now be “reunification.”
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
#162:
Yes, it seems that the proponents of common usage will always butt heads with those advocating more politically convenient terminology. (I guess if I were trying to get elected, I’d say and do anything like Genscher apparently did too.) That said, I absolutely loved how the Germans can debate the semantics and nuances of their language — as well as the sociopolitical connotations of words — for hours and hours, and how these discussions so easily devolved into heated debates about politics, German history, personal experiences during the war, etc. late into the night, especially over a good Pilsen or hefe-Weizen…ehrliche schöne Erinnerungen. Einfach toll!
Yeah, I miss the discussion over beer, too.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
#161:
This is clearly not true. You can read here to find out about that.
Will 8675309 please explain why the relevant government ministry in Korea is called the 통일부, not the 재통일부? And why the famous song sung in both North and South Korea is titled “우리의 소원 통일,” and not “우리의 소원 재통일.” Why is is that people talk only about 통일 in public discourse, not 재통일?
hamel it links to 맛집 daum map search result with a photo of 서울대입구 3번출구. Early start to the weekend?
No room for confusion as silla unification is always referred to as 신라의 삼국통일.. should we have another division in the future this one would be referred to as 남북통일.
Crikey! What an idiot. Still, could have been other things I have had in my web browser today…
Does it count as a Sperwer if I got the HMTL tags right but the link wrong?
Here it is for real now. See why the German-Polish border was not finally settled until late 1990.
I would like to propose that Marmot’s Hole gets an edit function for comments.
“I would like to propose that Marmot’s Hole gets an edit function for comments.”
– hamel
I strongly disagree. Generally, it would be very convenient for the posters, but inconvenient for the readers. Almost all the comments I have contributed here regrettably could use a thorough scrubbing with an EDIT function. Sometimes, I have made comments which were more condescending or snide in tone than I intended. Sometimes, I realize too late that my facts are wrong or that my opinions are not supported by the facts. And other times, I just do a poor job of communicating my thoughts. So I too used to think that it might be helpful to have an editing function.
But then Brendon Carr recently was given the privilege. And that’s when I saw that the edit function is a bad idea. This is because some of these posts can run past 100 comments. If people begin editing an old comment while others keep adding new comments, then the course of conversation would be very difficult to follow. It would be ineffecient to have to skim through 100 reader comments dozens of times to see what past comments have been altered to see how that should affect future comments.
When Brendon Carr was taking advantage of his privilege, I found myself having to reread a comment buried earlier in the thread to respond to him. Furthermore, he could completely change his position and it would seem to later readers that I was responding to him without reason.
Unfortunately, our present available recourse is also probably unhelpful. It is not a good idea to point out your mistakes in a follow-up comment because everyone hates that. So, if you make a mistake, you just have to accept that other people will think you an idiot. It can’t be helped I suppose.
^_^;
lollabrats: you make a good point. Mr Carr did teach us something about that. Of course, if the edit function included a timestamp (like some news articles do: Published XXXXX, last edited YYYYYY) that would at least show us when something was edited, if not the previous text.
What I find more irritating is those who consistently like to point out others’ grammatical and spelling mistakes, but do not re-read their own posts before clicking “submit,” preferring to post another comment seconds later with a correction of an error that they themselves have made. Their feelings of self-righteousness (if that is what it is) are unwarranted; it is just annoying. Nobody likes a pubic corrector who then makes his/her own mistakes.
Thanks, by the way, to the lovely Yuna for pointing out my stupid error. Without her my argument would have lost its relevance.
* pubic-> public!
Hamel, that must have been intentional!
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
[What I find more irritating is those who consistently like to point out others’ grammatical and spelling mistakes, but do not re-read their own posts before clicking “submit,”]
–hamel
Ah, you are referring to Skitt’s Law:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6408927/Internet-rules-and-laws-the-top-10-from-Godwin-to-Poe.html
“Of course, if the edit function included a timestamp (like some news articles do”
–hamel
I thought of that, but it wouldn’t help. It would be really annoying if in a thread of over 150 comments, you had to scroll up and down to see who was altering their comments.
There are all kinds of obvious ideas I would like see adopted, which would make edits more practical, but no one has that kind of blogging technology. The underlying problem with what Brendon Carr was doing is not that he was editing, but that this blog attracts too many comments to make it convenient for readers.
lollabrats: I bow to your superior wisdom. Editing comments after submitting is out.
And thanks for posting once more the Telegraph article containing the top 10 internet laws. I have already posted that link twice this week, referencing Poe’s law – a parody is indistinguishable from an extremist position without the presence of a winky or similar. That makes three appearances by that list of laws this week! We might ask Robert to add it as a sticky link on his sidebar. No doubt we will make good use of it.
Altho in this case my complaint was something that was not Skitt’s Law per se, but (perhaps) “Hamel’s corollary” to Skitt’s Law – the person who makes the correction and makes a mistake invariably realizes it just after posting, and feels duty-bound to post just one more comment correcting him/herself, lest he/she lose reputation for being always correct. It wouldn’t do to have a corrector corrected by anyone but him/herself, you see?
Jerfey Hodges: Fucks for picking that up.
*thanks for picking that up!
8675309:
Still waiting to see if you have an answer to my comments at #165 and 167.
Edit function would be bad because Brendon Carr wouldn’t feel special anymore, seeing how he has a habit of making quick fixes to his comment on just about every other post. Heh heh heh.
Don’t worry, I’d still feel plenty special.
But I think you guys got me wrong. I might add a thought here or there, but I never reverse myself.
@150:
Quatsch! Leider Hamel, das tut man nicht! You need to read up on your Korean history. Artificially limiting the definition of reunification to the physical reconfiguration of borders, belies the fact that reunification transcends physical remapping and also includes the re-establishment of sociopolitical, historical and cultural ties that existed prior.
Your belief that the “unification” and reunification are synonymous terms related to both Germany’s wiedervereinigung and any future reunion of the two Koreas shows not only a misunderstanding of what actual reunification involves, but an ignorance of history. I don’t care if the modern German state is a mere fraction of what it was during the Weimar Republic, or during the Third Reich. The language, the people, the culture, the historical legacy is what makes a people a people, and that legacy transcends remapped borders and continues today in the Federal Republic of Germany, post 1990. Same with Korea, and should the two Koreas come together, it would be a reunification, in a long line of previous ones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms_of_Korea
Yes, studying the topography surrounding 서울대입구 3번출구 was very interesting and helpful (does Yuna work for the NSA? I’ve never seen anyone outside with military with such superior map reading skills). And I believe there is a very good 갈비 joint just round the corner from that exit…
Anyway, your bringing up the Oder-Neisse Line (Die Oder-Neiße-Grenze), which was established at Potsdam in 1945, enforced at the end of the war, and then re-confirmed between the united Federal Republic of Germany and Poland in October of 1990, does not disprove my original statement that Germany’s borders in the East and West were determined at Potsdam in 1945.
Also the agreement between Poland and the newly reunited Germany in 1990 to recognize that border was a mere formality — there was no further negotiation or military threats used to establish what was already determined long ago.
Why are you asking me this? I am not a native Korean speaker, so how the hell would I know? (Somebody like Yuna is the kind of person to ask, if she hasn’t already answered already.)
Anyway, even my parents (early 70′s) can’t say why either, but then again, they are neither the type of people to think about those kinda things, nor are they the suitable types to ask in the first place. (Playing golf and watching Korean dramas are their priorities in life — and I guess if you survived the Korean war as a teenager, you get a “pass” on Korean history for all eternity and can do darn well as you please for the rest of your life.)
That said, I don’t think today’s Koreans think about history, know about history, nor take much stock in their own history, and many — both older generation and younger generation — seem to be completely dismissive of it, which of course brings up what Santayana said — “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
For the time being, unless things change, I truly believe that this maxim will be a better predictor of Korea’s future than the wishful thinking of the blissfully ignorant who only hope to maintain the status quo.
“Furthermore, he could completely change his position and it would seem to later readers that I was responding to him without reason.”
–me
“But I think you guys got me wrong. I might add a thought here or there, but I never reverse myself.”
–Brendon Carr
“And other times, I just do a poor job of communicating my thoughts.”
–me
I believe you did, but on an insignificant matter. But I believed then as I do now that you did it not with the intent to “reverse your position,” but to correct something you miswrote.
Nonetheless, I owe you an apology. In my above statement, I actually thought that I had used the adverb, “hypothetically,” instead of what I actually used, “furthermore.” Of course changing the adverb completely changes the meaning of the entire statement. So, apologies.
I hope this will remedy:
“Hypothetically, someone could completely change his position and it would seem to later readers that I was responding to him without reason.”
…
“It is not a good idea to point out your mistakes in a follow-up comment because everyone hates that.”
–me
I should amend this point, too, since I do not actually agree with it, but have the opportunity now to fix it.
In the last 24 hours, (1) “michael” told “yuna to “grow up,” “hamel” posted a link to the wrong website, and I unintentionally made Brendon Carr look bad.
“Michael” and I apologized and explained what we meant and “hamel” posted the correct link. I guess there are times when you must follow-up. Nevertheless, other readers hate it anyway.
:p
You are too gentlemanly for the Internet, lollabrats!
“You are too gentlemanly for the Internet, lollabrats!”
–slim
Thank you for your compliment. But, please, you must never say that about anyone. That’s not the kind of reputation anyone can live up to. And nobody who knows me personally would say that about me. But thank you.
cheerio?
#178
and the earlier #161
Ok, I’ll be your huckleberry.
Time magazine Monday, Mar. 05, 1990: “Most irksome so far has been Kohl’s refusal to state unambiguously that a united Germany would lay no claim to land east of the Oder-Neisse line, which constitutes the present border between East Germany and Poland. When challenged, Kohl hides behind legalisms. [...] President Bush, who met with Kohl over the weekend at Camp David, let it be known in advance that he planned to press the West German to allay Polish concern on the border question. Time and again, Polish leaders emphasized the depth of that worry. ”
Oh yeah man, German-Polish border issues were resolved long ago. The Poles weren’t worried in 1990 at all. [sarcasm off]
Then:
Well that just about wraps that up then. I thought Korean could be used here, but you are apparently ignorant of it, apart from some cool swear words you learnt from a comic book, perhaps.
Let’s say for a moment that my argument from the German situation is completely fallacious. Fine. The fact remains that the word used in Korea (in both Korean and English) is usually “unification” (as in the Ministry of Unification) not “re-unification.” I linked to the English site of the Ministry of Unification, by the way, since your Korean is not up to snuff.
But let’s not forget where all this began. Comment #93, you yelling at TheKorean for using the word “unification”:
Now perhaps that was rhetorical over-reach by you in your never-ending quest to slam TheKorean, but it was clearly wrong and foolish. In Korea the term is “unification,” and you were being a gormless pillock.
Finally:
You won’t find any argument from me there.
Can’t speak for others, but I self-correct because teaching spelling is part of my job, and I do not want others to mistake typos for spelling errors and have one more reason to criticize teachers as commenter JW did a couple days ago.
Harsh criticism of important people that enjoy chul-tong-bap status comes with the territory and therefore Sonagi, your colleagues that fall under this category ought to be used to it by now (but let’s face it, it’s just harder to fire teachers in general, union or no). If you were Korean, you’d know all this very very well.
Back in comment #56, you made an insinuation about me as a professional. I didn’t realize then that you might think of me as an important person.
Who in their right mind doesn’t think teachers are important??? What insinuation do you mean exactly? I wasn’t at all trying to imply that you in particular were not a good teacher in any way shape or form. I apologize if that wasn’t clear, but the teacher union problem is so serious that simply being a member of such unions is enough I think to cause shame in decent people.
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