Arirang TV is reportedly running a series on Korean-Americans who have made it big in Migukland:
Arirang TV is airing the documentary series “Dream It! – You Are the Next Generation” every Friday to offer a peek into the lives of successful Americans of Korean descent.
There are currently more than 2.4 million Korean-Americans living in the United States, and they have not only changed their own lives but also the way people see them.
The start of Koreans building their lives in the United States may have been rough, but now many of their descendents, as well as many newer immigrants, have managed to work their way up in various fields.
The documentary is comprised of 13 episodes, each focused on young and passionate Korean-Americans who are living their dreams and inspiring others along the way.
Grievously snubbed, however, was C.S. Lee, who you no doubt know as Vince Masuka from Dexter. For shame, Arirang TV. For shame.
{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }
C.S. Lee? That might be ’cause he’s gay. Remember. There are no gays in Korea…
I want to see the show do some real analysis. For instance, why do Koreans loyalties seem to lie with Korea despite being 2nd or even 3rd generation Americans. And, how good is this for the US to have so many Koreans who identify with and care more about Korea than their own country and countrymen? Why are they more likely to enlist in the Korean army and cheer for Korean teams than the American army and American teams.
What impact on the unity, pride, and overall strength of the US will this have with growing masses of people such as Koreans living in America?
How many of the 2.4 million were born in the US when their mom flew over from Korea to give birth in the States and to help the child avoid military service and other issues?
C.S. Lee is not gay.
The US will be led to invade, take over, and occupy Japan, and possibly China, by the growing influence of Koreans in America.
Not to worry, Hole Dwellers.
Sentimental attachments to ancestral homelands and their sports teams, food & drink, beauty pageant contestants, historical
grievancessites, etc., are an American tradition as old as the separation of church and state (sorry, couldn’t resist). It doesn’t mean a thing.As late as the just-concluded Vancouver Olympics, my brother told me he was torn between rooting for the Czech and U.S. hockey teams. And we’ve spent like 5 days total in Prague between the two of us.
One of the greatest scenes of fiction ever filmed was Tony Soprano’s crew visiting The Old Country. The Napolitano mafia fed them octopus (and it looked good, too); but the Jersey goombahs whined “where’s the gravy?” (as in the red sauce that forms the basis of “Italian” food in the U.S.).
Absolutely freakin’ priceless.
Weiku, what I mentioned is much different than sentimental attachments.
As for past immigrants, few real comparisions exist, especially when one considers external factors such as improved communications and transport.
What a refreshing departure this is from the mainstream Korean media’s usual neglect or unreservedly harsh coverage of successful Korean Americans.
I’m confused about that k-Amer. stat of 2.4 million.
I am wondering if this is solely American citizens of Korean descent–which could possibly date back to the first wave immigrants to Hawaii at the turn of the
century (19th-20th). I am aware of a very large number (several hundred thousand) of Korean citizens illegally staying in the US, therefore I wonder if this is included in the stat. Might this also include individuals who have had ethnic Koreans somewhere in their family? Further, there are quite a few Korean citizens in the US on various visas related to work and study, as well as those with permanent residency, so I also wonder if this is in this stat.
Anyone have a reliable source on the subject with a breakdown similar to what I’ve written?
Are any half-Koreans not named Hines Ward included? I would like to see that.
What are you basing this on? (The army part, not the cheering part.) Was there any survey or anything? I am genuinely curious.
jim kim? another korea basher. i’m proud of team korea at the vanc olympics.
as for cs lee, where’s ‘the otherkorean’ when you need to combat stereotypes on tv?
How can they be livin’ the dream when the wall of Jews is keepin’ them down?
Anyway, Yuna reported last week that they’re all returning. Bon voyage.
Rob,
My bad. I got C.S. Lee confused with Rex Lee of Entourage. Wrong person, wrong show, even wrong channel.
All I ask from Korea bashers is…
1) Be original and thoughtful. Stop making brain dead criticisms and get some new material man. Some of you guys rehash old material all the time. Or at least repurpose the old stuff into something creative. Use a little brain power here fellas. It gets boring… [yawn]
2) Please stop picking screen names that may imply (or have others imply) that you are ethnically Korean. I see it all the time on youtube. You know the Korean with broken English who posts in U.S. blogs and tries to defend Korea as a “typical” American? Pathetic, no? Yeah, it’s just like that.
To be honest, Korean Americans, even those born in the US seem to have more of an attachment to their “home” country than other ethnic groups.
This seems to be a result of a ‘distance’ that results from being a small ethnic minority. The Korean population in the US just doesn’t seem as integrated as other minorities and at times seem standoffish.
Their are always exceptions of course. I have several old college buddies who are Korean and about as American as they come….although they have issues dealing with criticism on Korea…..
Now, some of the Chinese Americans i know…all they do is bash China
As for changing the way most Americans view Koreans, i honestly don’t think anythings changed at all.
keius and “Jim_Kim,”
The data does not support your casual and observational assertions:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-05-13-assimilation_N.htm
Korean American’s assimilation index of 41 well over the mean of 28.
Wangkong, Pawi, in your overzealous attempts to defend Korea over perceived slights, just proved my point!
There is nothing in my comment about the nation of Korea. I wrote about the US, so how is that Korea bashing at all?
I enjoy much about Korea (though not everything), so please point out the Korea bashing in my last comment – I would not want to mistakenly offend any of you Koreans, Korean Koreans that is.
Jim_Kim is clearly an idiot. This kind of specious reasoning reminds me of mizar.
#6, Jim_Kim:
By your ignorant statements, I do not believe for one second that “Jim_Kim” is a Korean of any sort. What else is their beside an immigrant’s sentimental attachment to their country of origin? If you’re suggesting that Korean Americans have some type of religious or nationalistic allegiance to Korea once they’ve become U.S. citizens, you are being a tool recycling the old “yellow peril” racist theories that Korean Americans as well as other Asian Americans are “inscrutable orientals” and therefore cannot be trusted to be “real” Americans.
#15, Keius:
This is a ridiculous generalization that is not only devoid of any cites or supporting evidence but belies the fact the K.A. community considers the U.S. to be their “home” country, and adamantly so. Also, what other ethnic groups have you researched to offer up any comparison to support your claims? I see — you’ve been making this shit up. Troll.
This statement suggests to me that beyond the non-English speaking Korean waitress you encountered at a Korean restaurant somewhere in L.A. you probably have never had a Korean-American friend in your entire life.
And this suggests what…that just b/c somebody disagrees with your narrow-minded stereotypical ideas about Korea and Korean culture that they are somehow less of an American? I seriously doubt you were able to befriend any K.A. guys in college as you allege, b/c you come off as a Asian-Korean know-it-all (who incidentally are the bane of the K.A. existence both during and after college), and a bigot who tries to endear himself to other K.A’s by spouting off offensive statements about their heritage or ancestry. Nice try, but you’re full of it.
That’s b/c the majority of Chinese Americans who were born in the U.S. are either 1) Descendants of Chinese laborers (usually 6th generation or greater) who came to the U.S. in the 19th century from mostly the southern provinces of the mainland China long before the communist takeover; 2) Descendants of Taiwanese immigrants (especially if they have a Mandarin background) whose parents came to the U.S. after 1964 after Asian quotas were lifted; or 3) Recent immigrants from Hong Kong (if they’re Cantonese speakers).
So of course among ABC’s (American Born Chinese), you are not going to find any pro-Maoist/pro-Chinese/pro-communist mainlanders. In fact, the only group who’ll be stridently pro-chinese in America are Chinese international students holding U.S. student visas.
# 17,
Please reread my comments. I was not just referring to Korea as just a nation but also as a general subject matter. Also, I was not just referring to you specifically in my point (2).
Arirang did a similar series at least ten years ago — this is hardly news.
Thank god the KAs are here to tell us all how we must think about Korea. Guys relax. It is a discussion – enough with the race-baiting and name-calling. Am I allowed my opinion, too?
What I am asking about (#2) is reasonable. You can’t pull the race card every time you don’t like what you’re hearing.
Wangkong, I assume your remarking about my name. The name is a contraction of my real name; it’s on my business card and Koreans seem to enjoy it. I apologize for my insensitivity – shall I change my screen name? I am curious – do you permit Koreans to use Western sounding names?
Tiny Flowers, let me clarify. I am talking about America and Americans, an American issue that has little to do with most people living in this nation.
Weiku, of course people have sentimental attachments. That is to be expected. But I am not talking about eating Korean food or cheering for the Korean national team (though it does irk me a bit when I see so many 2nd or 3rd gen. Koreans rooting for Korea against the US).
“You can’t pull the race card every time you don’t like what you’re hearing.”
You’d be surprised, Jim.
Sorry Jim, though your posts are sort of entertaining, I’m gonna have to side with some of the other folks here. The whole issue of personal national allegiance would be very difficult to gauge. I would venture to say that it is connected to the relative prosperity of the ethnic country of origin in relation to the newer home. As an example, my grandma and her parents had absolutely
no allegiance or yearning for their Italian homeland when they came over in
the 1890s; but, once Italy became stable and relativelty prosperous later in the
20th century, there was a re-identification with the homeland.
I’d imagine the same thing has been taking place with South Korea.
Take the F-4 visa for example: a visa conceived not so long ago during Korea’s new-found prosperity, designed to unconditionally bring back all the South Korean ethnic Koreans who fled the place during its tougher times.
I am wondering if such fond identification will continue if S. Korea ever falls upon very tough times in the future.
Further, I’m not quite sure so many 2nd or 3rd generation Korean-Americans or Korean-Canadians choose unquestioned loyalty to S.Korea. Do you really think someone like Margret Cho wants to return to S.Korea? Would she fit in here as 조모란? How about Daniel Dae Kim? You think he wouldn’t get made fun of for his less-than-fluent K-American Korean accent? How about the descendents of the first Koreans in Hawaii? Would they really choose to wave the S.Korean flag after having lived as Americans for over a century?
The dorky K-American netizens, visa’d S.Koreans-in-the-US internet dorks, and non-visa’d (illegal)-S.Koreans-in-the-US computer junkies are in no way representative of this very large group of individuals who have chosen the USA as their permanent home. I’m sure many posters on this board will agree with this statement . . . right?????
Jim, still waiting on the military thing earlier. I really am very curious — I would love to see any type of survey on this issue.
At this point, Jim sounds like a one of those AmRen or maybe StormFront guys. Asians are okay, as long as they stay in their own country.
Bottomline. America needs immigration. Who’s going to pay for your (and my) social security? The alternative is to be like Japan, be generally hostile to immigration, and face demographic doomsday.
However, it’s sad that this thread, which the poster probably put up to celebrate the achievements of Korean Americans, has turned into a bit of an inverted AmRen thread.
Very very few. It costs a lot of money (est. at $20k for one trip). It’s a rich woman’s option.
Here’s an LAT article on the practice:
http://fileus.org/dept/citizenship/02-05-26-latimes-birth_tourism_asia.html
#25, exit86:
This whole idea of “national allegiance” and its gauging among a new immigrant community is a slippery slope discussion for Asian Americans, b/c we are well aware that long before Pearl Harbor and FDR’s passage of Executive Order 9066 — which led to the internment of 110,000 Japanese Americans on the West Coast — a majority of the U.S. population still entertains racially discriminatory thinking about Asian-Americans in general, especially about our loyalty to the U.S., despite the sacrifices of exemplary groups of patriots such as the U.S. Army’s exclusively Nisei units — the 100th Btn, and the 442 RCT during WW2 (the most decorated unit of its size in the ETO), and exemplary Korean Americans like Colonel Young-Oak Kim (who served alongside Japanese American nisei in the 100th Btn during WW2, and who later — during the Korean War — became the first ethnic minority to command a U.S. Army combat battalion in history, having earned two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars and three Purple Hearts by the time he retired in 1972).
That being said, most Koreans, even Korean Koreans, are not particularly enthusiastic about the Korean government, and many — including my 1st generation parents — harbor bad memories, grudges, and painful histories when it comes to the idea of having to pledge “allegiance” to the Korean state.
On the other hand, in lieu of “national allegiances”, there is its less radical and more innocuous form called ‘pride’ or specifically K-Pride™. Now if you wanna talk about K-Pride™, yeah, KA’s are full of it. IMO, this kind of pride in who you are, and where your ancestors came from has little or nothing to do with national allegiance. It’s just 100% pure sentimentalism — that pollyanna-ish feel-good emotion that has less to do with politics or nation states, and more to do with ego, brand-name and sports teams. And I’ll certainly concede that this kind of pride is more prevalent during prosperous times rather than hard times.
On the other, ethnic pride is not a barometer of political or national allegiance, as every American with an ethnic background or immigrant roots has pride in who they are — whether it be exit86′s Italian-American pride that facilitated a re-identification with the homeland of his/her ancestors, or the KA’s in L.A. wearing their “Be the Reds” t-shirts or those going goo-ga-ga over Kim Yu-na. But don’t expect these same Korean Americans to be signing up for the ROK Army or Marines anytime soon should hostilities spill over the 38th Parallel or the NLL. In fact, I’d be prepared for many KA’s to enlist en masse in the U.S. military should that day ever happen.
Wrong. The F-4 visa was first championed in 1999-2000 by an adult Overseas Adopted Korean, who in conjunction with Holt International successfully petitioned the National Assembly to create a special category visa for Korean American and K.A. adoptees — not only to encourage their return, but first and foremost to facilitate the overseas adoption process and eliminate the precarious limbo status many OAKs found themselves once earmarked for adoption in Korea — without Korean or U.S. citizenship — while awaiting their U.S. visas to come through.
And while the National Assembly showed good judgment in allowing F-4 status, you are mistaken to think that they — or any other branch of Korean government — possessed the foresight, drive and wherewithal to declare such a specialized category on their own. The fact is that it took a grass roots initiative to make the F-4 possible. (And the irony that it came out of the O.A.K. community to make it happen — as a non-adopted K.A. who benefited from it — is not lost on me for one second.
@19,
Relax dude. Name calling/insults and accusations are uncalled for.
No where in my post did i make any derogatory comments on any one race. Making assumptions on those Koreans or Chinese that i know or hang out with is also …..blah
As i said in my post, these are just my casual observations.
I happen to hang out with alotta Jewish, Chinese, and Koreans.
I live in an area i call “little Korea Town”. Ellicott City, MD
ALOT of my neighbors are Korean and we get along very well.
I also happen to be married to a Chinese woman who was born, raised, and educated in China. She loves China but hates it too, and acknowledges that most of the bashing is true. One of my best friends also married a Chinese woman, raised and educated in China and all she does is bash the US. Yes, i do hang out with ABC’s but also those Born in China that actually buy in to the Nationalist Chinese Propaganda Some actually believe censorship is a good thing. Even my wife thinks that censorship may be a necessary evil in a country like China. I’ll not get in to the details on why.
And yes, i do make some generalizations based on observation. Who doesn’t?? They were not intended to be insulting and I never claimed it made any of them less American. Like that even means anything because Americans are just a mishmash of every culture thats ever immigrated here.
btw, you’re the one that seems a bit narrow minded. The way you attacked me seems a pretty good indicator of that. Attack anyone who doesn’t conform to your views. I’m always open to debate and yes, although, you do make some good points, try to be a bit more civil.
Me, too. Especially given that the stereotype is that many KoAms are KoAms because they DIDN’T want to serve in the ROK military.
I personally don’t know of any KAs who voluntarily enlisted in the Korean military. It’s unheard of. Though many do enlist in the US military. I think it’s safe to say Jim_Kim has no clue what he’s talking about.
Jim_Kim said:
For instance, why do Koreans loyalties seem to lie with Korea despite being 2nd or even 3rd generation Americans. And, how good is this for the US to have so many Koreans who identify with and care more about Korea than their own country and countrymen?
Today is St Patrick’s Day here in the Homeland. Do you think Jim_Kim would be asking the same question if you replaced “Korean” with “Irish” and “Korea” with “Ireland”? Or how about if you replaced “Korean” with “Jews” and “Korea” with “Israel”?
What do you think boys and girls?
I think my earlier point about the military stands incorrect until actual stats can be gathered
1) US military is voluntary, so there is greater pressure to join the K. military. One might argue that this distorts the numbers in favor of K army
2) Point (#31) is good but I think you would have to distinguish b/n those 1st gen. Koreans who are running from the k. military, and those 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen. (we all know them) KAs who feel it’s their duty to join the K army (we’ve all met them).
.
Actually, no — that’s why I was so curious. I have never met a single 2d/3d/4th generation KA who wanted to join Korean army, much less actually join it. About a month ago I received an email from a KA who actually joined Korean army, which was the first time I even heard about such a case.
Given how much Korean men hate draft dodgers, you would think there would be a news article (however small) whenever a gyopo actually gives up his Green Card/citizenship to enlist in Korean army. A quick Google/Naver search shows… five such cases.
Well, allow me to enlighten you. It’s not unheard of. When I was in the service, working in an underground bunker in a joint-services environment with ROK forces, I used to encounter such Korean-American guys all the time. Selected for their language ability (and thus capability to help smooth relations with US Forces Korea), those kyopos amazed me all the more once I found out they were making five bucks a month and were also sometimes beaten by their seniors. Hats off to you, fellas — I sure couldn’t do it.
From time to time these days I run into voluntary enlistees working for the Korean government — law school graduates, no less.
My perception is that such enlistees are disproportionately drawn from the successful classes, and plan to have a career in Korea or closely enough with Korea to make “punching their ticket” in the Army valuable enough to put up with the mess. But not all. Some were simply drawn by ethnic affinity and patriotism — doin’ it for Grandma.
With respect to the point about losing one’s green card or American citizenship due to “voluntary” enlistment in the Korean Army, it’s my understanding that surrendering to the draft for service in an enlisted capacity is not cause for loss of residency or citizenship.
NetizenKim, I have no idea what you’re on about. I think the US does have a KA Day though. If you are an American citizen (esp, 2nd, or 3rd gen), whether Irish, Jewish, or Thai, your loyalty must be with the US.
But the KA Pawi’s and NetizenKim’s of the world not only lack loyalty but they loathe their country and countrymen and love Korea and Koreans.
And again, it is not about race; it’s about national strength. Bear in mind the 1925-1965 absorbtion period was about Americanizing non-anglo whites.
I haven’t met any. The concensus of KAs that comment here is that they don’t know any either. This case is rather typical (in terms of 2nd gen’s attitude about being drafted):
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/168210_korean08.html
Jim, your comment is a little odd since 3rd and 4th generation KAs are extremely rare. Most of us (or our parents) got here in 1965 due to the Immigration Act. Hawaii has the highest concentration of 3rd and 4th generation KAs. Did you live there for some time?
Since anecdotal evidence from others (plural) seem to contradict you (singular), the burden of proof now lies squarely with you.
Brendon,
That’s an interesting angle. It would make sense for a KA who wants to stay in Korea long term to join the army. “Punching the ticket” makes sense. However, I think the difference here is that Jim appears to be saying that KA 2nd gen and above have a preference to voluntarily enlist while they in the states.
How many of the KAs you met in the Korean army were 2nd gen and above?
Never met one. Jim_Kim, I have to question just how familiar you are with the KA community. Where in America do you live? You sound like you formed your impressions about KAs entirely from reading this blog or something.
This is enlightening…. from the article I linked to in # 38:
Since Chun and his mother found out he still had Korean citizenship (despite him being born in the U.S.) they knew the draft issue would come up so….:
Stories about service in the French Foreign Legion aside, I always though service by an American in the military of another country was grounds for loss of citizenship, but I know American Jews regularly go and serve in the IDF without a peep from the State Department or U.S. government. I wonder if this is a case of a law that’s just never enforced.
DLB
#37
Likewise, Jim_Kim, I don’t know what gives you the right to question the loyalty of others, especially a bunch of twinkies whose main concern in life is dropping hints about what fancy school they graduated from and whose parents are mostly mom-and-pop small business owners.
If you are so concerned about loyalty, national strength, and those who sell out the nation then you might want to start with Wall Street, corporate special interests, and CEOs who lay off thousands of people and ship jobs overseas.
I don’t believe there is any such law generally prohibiting service as a private soldier or non-commissioned officer in a foreign army, which will only get you in trouble if the foreign country goes to war against the US, in which case, if you participate on the side of the foreign power, you will be guilty of treason. The same may also be true of commissioned officers, depending on the nature of the oath they are required to take; I think the rule of thumb is that service as a non-general officer is OK, again subject to the actual hostilities participation rule. On the other hand MacArthur served as CIC of The Philippines Army before WW2 without complaint, but that may have been a function of his special status and/or that of the ‘pines vis-a-vis the US at the time.
Check more closely. Service as a commissioned officer or non-commissioned officer will get an American in trouble. Biding one’s time as a conscripted flunky will not.
In case it’s not clear from the previous comment, I really admire the Korean-American who serves in the Korean Army and the American Jew who volunteers for the Israeli Defense Force and so on and so forth. So long as they aren’t bearing arms against my comrades, bully for them.
#29 (867. . . )
Great points! I think we are actually on the same page here, not at odds.
You made some good points about the F-4 visa as well, though you may have been too dismissive of my own brief comments on the subject. Yes, the OAK
group brought the idea to SK Nat. Assembly, but you forgot to mention the
debate within S. Korea for passing the visa legislation, part of which included the idea of bringing the long-lost (American) Korean brothers and sisters back into the fold. [It must also be noted that the F-4 originally did not extend to ethnic Koreans in China, Mongolia, Russia, or Uzbekistan.]
It is interesting that the term “hypernationalistic” was used in this debate in Korea in reference to the F-4; and, the fact that the F-4 is not exclusively for OAK individuals tells us something. Tobias Hubinette deals with this F-4 issue in his book “Comforting an Orphaned Nation” where he discusses this same issue of Korean adoptees in detail–a great book which I strongly recommend.
Anyway, great points 867. . . !
Where are all these 3rd and 4th generation Koreans?
This would mean that their ancestors either were born in or immigrated to the US roughly from around 100 to 75 years ago. To be more precise about it, since the first group of Korean workers came to Hawaii in 1903 and there was no Korean immigration following 1924, 3rd and 4th generation Korean Americans would be those who are descended from Koreans who either immigrated to or were born in the US during the roughly 20 year period from 1903 to 1924.
I have never met these people. Are they all in Hawaii or something?
Even 2nd generation Koreans aren’t that common. You’re more likely to come across a 1st generation or a student.
Seouldout you wrote in #12: “How can they [US kyopos] be livin’ the dream when the wall of Jews is keepin’ them down?”
Sarcasm? A joke? Enlighten me please?
You say this like this phenomena is unique to Koreans? What about the Irish or the Italians or the various flavours of latino?
Google “Won Bok Rhie”.
It doesn’t seem that unreasonable to believe that the probability of an American actually traveling to Korea by plane and coming across a Korean, whether for US military service, teaching English, business, layover at Incheon on the way to another part of Asia, etc., is greater than the probability of an American coming across a 3rd or 4th generation Korean American in the US.
Can’t speak for the Jews, but we Potatoheads (add snide comment about the Kraut last name HERE) had to work damn hard to get our holiday. When Korean-Americans band together and invade Canada in the name of Korean republicanism, you can get your own day and parade, too.
The original comment:
All I said, was that you would have to distinguish b/n the two groups, not that there are millions of 4th generation joining the army.
Some of you are great a twisting things around.
Rob,
It helps that on St. Paddy’s day you get to drink green beer…
I predict that Cinco De Mayo will also become a defacto American holiday due to the special excuse to drink afforded on that day…
@#49 I’m saying precisely the opposite. The situation has unique elements but overall is not unique. Now that we are off topic: The Irish and Italians were absorbed during the moratorium, and their numbers were far less than the foreign born we have today. To compare immigration of yesteryear and today is pure folly because everything about it is different.
My opinions come from my experiences with numerous Korean-Americans in Korea where I have lived my adult life. Unforunately, the majority of KAs I have met view themselves as Koreans first. Once in a while you meet one that identifies with being American but they are usually adoptees or other special cases.
All I am saying is that since these guys are representative of the new Americans of the future, our country is in trouble because they are more concerned with Korea’s prosperity and success than America’s.
Unfortunately, in the KA case, ethnic loyalty seems to be stronger than nationality. I hope I am wrong but my experience tells me otherwise.
I think it would be rather difficult it is to lose one’s citizenship by serving in a foreign military. Under 8 USC 1481, even if you do serve a military engaged in hostilities against the US, it’s only grounds for revocation of citizenship if done so “with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality”, which may be difficult to prove.
One might think that that signing up for the Iranian Revolutionary Guard would be pretty much conclusive evidence of that “intention”, but it doesn’t appear to be a real threat to citizenship since they’re not currently (or at least formally) “engaged in hostilities” against the US. But even if they were actively engaged in hostilities against the US, that wouldn’t appear to be conclusive (based on the state.gov web page, which I know is not any kind of binding authority: “[v]oluntary service in the armed forces of a state engaged in hostilities against the United States could be viewed as indicative of an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship”, emphasis added).
I imagine the risk to citizenship in serving as an NCO or officer of a foreign army is because it’s essentially the same as taking some kind of oath to that army’s state (that being another basis for revocation, under 8 USC 1481(a)(2) or (4)(B). Indeed, NCO or officer service probably requires such an oath anyway. But I also think it unlikely State would take any action unless you really drew attention to yourself.
Thinking of an example where international relations were much friendlier, you have Col. David “Mickey” Marcus, who served (and was killed during his service) as a General in the IDF in Israel’s War for Independence after his service in the US Army. He is apparently the only American buried at West Point that was killed fighting under the flag of a foreign army. From this I must assume that his American citizenship was not called into question.
@ Jim
You originally suggested that your views are based on experiences with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation Korean Americans that apparently people are running into all the time:
Now you’re saying that it’s based on experiences with Korean Americans in Korea:
Which is it?
Minjok, are you trying to say you can’t meet (or read about all the time) Koreans running from Korea to the US to escape military? You can. You can also meet loads of KAs here who have done K. military.. But the point is: comment #55, which nobody has answered. For the sake of argument, let’s say 2nd/3rd gen. k’s only.
There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all… The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic… There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.
- Theodore Roosevelt
And bah to the ethnocentric “holidays” such as St. Patrick’s day, Columbus day, etc. Cinco de Mayo? That’s barely celebrated in Mexico. It’s one of these holidays make up by Madison Avenue…kinda like White Day.
These Koreans, if they’re not planning on returning, would be 1st generation immigrants, not 2nd, 3rd, or 4th.
These “loads of KAs” are likely to be 1st generation immigrants. Nobody seems to have ever even met a 3rd or 4th generation KA, let alone one that has served in the Korean military, except for you, who apparently runs into them all the time, despite living his adult life in Korea. And 2nd generation KAs are not likely to have served in the Korean military.
Why would you include 3rd gen. when, per my comment #47, they are such a negligible part of the KA population? They are virtually nonexistent. Why include them for the sake of argument when including them doesn’t even seem to help your argument?
As for 2nd generation KA, that would have to be a KA whose parents were either born in the US following 1965 or immigrated to the US at a young age following 1965. If the parents immigrated, they would have had to have done so at a relatively young age, with a good part of their formative years (childood, teens) growing up in the US, since it doesn’t really make sense to call a Korean who immigrates as an adult 1st gen., and then to call a child he or she has soon thereafter 2nd gen.
So what are some reasonable age profiles we might expect for these 2nd generation KAs? If they’re 2nd gen KAs whose parents were born in the US, the oldest their parents could be is 45 (b. 1965). So the oldest they themselves are likely to be is in their mid-20s. If their parents immigrated, we could say that the oldest their parents would be is around 55, immigrating to the US in 1965 at around the age of 10, since I’m positing that a parent would’ve had to have spent a non-trivial amount of time growing up in the US in order to be considered an earlier generation. So the oldest they themselves are likely to be is in their mid-30s.
Then a reasonable age profile for all these 2nd gen KAs that have served in the Korean military you’ve encountered would be from mid-20s to mid-30s. I have never met a KA that is aged mid-20s to mid-30s, that is 2nd generation, and that has served in the Korean military. Maybe others have. I have a hard time believing that there are many of them.
Theodore Roosevelt was a myopic half-crippled asshole and glory-hound, who not only suffered from a severe Walter Mitty Complex all his life, but was a racist imperialist and colonialist to boot. In addition, he not only fucked things up for Korea with his brainchild, the Taft-Katsura Agreement, he certainly didn’t deserve the Nobel Peace Prize he won for brokering the Treaty of Portsmouth, which was basically a short-sighted and self-serving expedient solution to the end of the Russo-Japanese War which he had no business sticking his nose into. People like him should be taxidermized and mounted on a headboard for all to see — “The Last of the Imperialists.”
I find it strange that so many KA’s have posted on this thread that they have never met a KA who served or was serving in the Korean military. With the number I’ve come across over the last 10 years of living in Korea, that seems statistically unlikely. Any ideas on what would cause the discrepency? Is the KA community segragated so much that those who would volunteer to serve in Korea, for whatever reason, would grow up, study, play and work, in entirely different circles than those who don’t? I’ll be completely honest…before coming to Korea the only Korean Americans I knew (albeit very few) came from predominately white communities, didn’t go to Korean churches and didn’t speak Korean so my observations are mostly limited to time spent in Korea with lots of KATUSAs, translators, military tour guides, and otherwise more likely Korean folk in the military to have come from the states.
As for the US code regarding service as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer getting you in trouble, I think it’s only a matter of time before the INA gets neutered by the SC for taking that one a bit too far. SC has, over the past 40 years or so, been pretty consistent about preserving naturalized citizens’ rights to participate in their native countries and exercise their pre-existing rights of citizenship, so long as it doesn’t include an overt act of disloyalty to the US or a verbal or written declaration to a US consulate or AG of intent to renounce citizenship. In other words, only § 1481 para. a.(5) – (7) would meet that criteria and would have to accompany a.(1)-(4) to be a consitutionally accepted form of violating one’s obligation/oath of allegiance. (code referenced below).
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001481—-000-.html
All this talk of citizens in different armies reminds me of a story I heard some time ago.
After the weeks of aerial bombardment of Iraqi forces in Kuwait, the marines moved in to attack Iraqi army fortifications. When they got close to the fortifications, they saw a young guy with an Iraqi army top but with bermuda shorts, sunglasses and flip flops. He walked up to the marines and said, in perfect English, “What took you guys so long? We were ready to surrender weeks ago.”
Turns out he was an Iraqi-American visiting family at the wrong time and got conscripted.
Heh, can’t believe I agree with 8675309 on Roosevelt.
Most Americans tend to deceive themselves but when you look at it objectively, who’s been sending the most troops to foreign soil? And only to those areas where we have vested interests.
But heck, what do you expect. We are Americans after all, numero uno when it comes to imperialism. When it comes to our interests and making war, we’re pretty damned good at it (and rationalizing it). We just suck when it comes to keeping peace after the deed is done
Not that other countries don’t do the same or want to do the same…Americans are just better at it….sigh
Seoldout @ 59;
Interesting find; Woodrow Wilson said exactly the same thing in similarly strong, but different, language not too many years later.
Speaking of race and national strength, while Jim_Kim and others wring their hands over all these supposed 2nd/3rd generation KAs clamoring to join the Korean military, his kids are observing Ramadan and learning Spanish at school. The borders are wide open. Whites will be a minority in America by 2050. That pattern will repeat in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and eventually, Europe itself. We will see it happen in our lifetimes.
I don’t think anyone has said that they have never met a KA who has served or was serving in the Korean military.
People here have said that they have never met a 3rd or 4th generation KA, let alone one who has served or was serving in the Korean military.
I’m sure there are some 2nd gen KAs that have served or are serving in the Korean military. Though few, at least here, seem to have met them.
@ tinyflowers
It’s happening in China as well and will accelerate there in the near future:
http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/03/has-china-come-to-end-of-history.html
Tiny Flowers#67. Exactly. That is why it is essential they identify as American. I like the Teddy quote; we need that attitude again.
“You sound just like those loons on Stormfront.
UN:F [1.8.5_1061]
I must be a loon because you don’t agree with me. To speak of tolerance!
What’s wrong with any of that?
How many of you KAs who have posted here put America first; how many of you care most about America’s prosperity?
Me.
Shit, me too. So long as the company I work for gets most of its revenue from American clients and my international stocks depend on the S&P 500 as a bellwether. America’s prosperity is my prosperity!
@ Jim
Can you clarify some of the claims you’ve made in this thread?
Do you still maintain that you have encountered many 3rd and 4th generation KAs, while living your adult life in Korea, and that you’ve met many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation KAs that have served, were serving, or feel it’s their duty to serve in the Korean military?
Minjok, you are fantastically obsessed with nothing. Stop avoiding the real discussion.
TheKorean: well, maybe I am wrong.
Maybe Jim Kim is Mizar. I’m getting suspicious.
Dogbertt thanks for the explanation. Seouldout now I understand the reference. Wow, Krazy Korean Kartoons… For those like me who’d missed it, here’s a good link:
http://monnarakorea.blogspot.com/
and also:
http://sites.google.com/site/joemondello/picturesandtranslationsfrommonnaraiunnar
I will refrain from ranting about Korean racism and bigotry.
Anyway I guess there was a Marmot post about it that I missed.
By the way the Korean-Americans I’ve met in the US usually have felt both Korean and American, which sounds so obvious it’s stupid but the point is that they don’t have to make some overall choice, one or the other. Isn’t there room to be both? In a sports game kyopos might root for Korea over the US, but that’s because the US is more general where Korea is more particular in there lives, and because Korea is the underdog, and also because they’ve already spent their time rooting for this or that NBA or football team… or so it seems to me, with a Californian perspective.
My Korean sucks but most kyopos’ Korean is way worse, and that isn’t a sign of people who feel more Korean than American. Those national labels are often slippery and hard to delineate.
As for 4th gen KoAm, we’re usually talking Koreans who settled in Hawaii. I know descendants of 4th gen KoAms, and the ones I know have crappy Korean skills and are often mixed with more recent immigrants. You can get those situations where the kids have a light Korean accent even though they can’t speak Korean. Btw I welcome them all to the US. A green card for each and every Korean I say, and I’m pro-Jew…
@ Jim
It’s one thing to say that you’ve encountered many 3rd and 4th generation KAs, while living your adult life in Korea, and that you’ve met “loads of” 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation KAs that have served, were serving, or feel it’s their duty to serve in the Korean military.
It’s another to say that you’ve met many 1st gen KAs, and perhaps some 2nd gen KAs, that have served, were serving, or feel it’s their duty to serve in the Korean military.
Btw I’m a little tipsy right now so please excuuse the typos etc… Where else is it suddenly spring?
In response to the silly posts about White Plight/Flight in the US–”Whites are going to be a minority” blah blah blah:
As an American citizen, I very much welcome such diversity and multiculturalism. We are all immigrants in the US (even the “Native Americans”). I love our ethnic diversity and am very proud of my nation because of this. I love the fact that I grew up with friends who were of various ethnic backgrounds–who I never really saw as “Chinese” “Mexican” or “Indian”
but as “John,” “Jennifer,” and “Josh.” I am not proud of such intolerance, bigotry, and f’ing stupidity in relation to “Whites vs. Hispanics vs. Asians vs. Blacks vs. Eastern-Europeans vs vs vs vs” Why is it always “vs.” ?
I sincerely hope the US becomes more ethnically diverse in the future, esp. to 86 these stupid “White” “Asian” “Black” terms. Let’s mix it up! Gee, how much fun would it be to have a nation of one ethnicity, one type of ethnic food, one set of ethnic customs and etiquette, and one way of thinking????????
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