If you read Korean, you’ll probably want to take a look at this post from a business reporter with the Korea Times discussing the recent dust-up between the Ministry of Finance and WSJ reporter Evan Ramstad (who is apparently one of the key figures in bringing the iPhone to Korea, not that it does me any good), Korean room salons and the reporting of the incident.
Great Post on ‘F*cking *sshole-Gate’
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{ 91 comments… read them below or add one }
Great article.
I wish I could read Korean
thekorean,
Your the awesomest! I know your a busy guy but I also know that you are a great translator. Wondering if you can translate this article some time. Possibly post it on your site. Again your the awesomest!!!
Per my grade level Korean… it’s pretty juicy…
Thanks in advance, TK^^
It’s a tad long, but interesting just the same.
I wouldn’t exactly say it’s juicy….that seems to connote something else.
This was a straight up good post that puts things in perspective.
This is a very good inside knowledge article. I don`t have the time to translate this because it`s too long. The main gist of it all:
Evan Ramstad is a good reporter. Many Koreans and Korean netizens actually thanks him for raising this issue, and can`t understand what all the fuss is about. But he did say `Fucking Asshole!“ to couple of Korean government officials, which has put him in a bad position.
This is how it went.
When Ramstad asked that question, the Finance Minister was poised and explained and denied all that goes on. But most Koreans who have dealt and worked in government can snort and snicker at Finance Minister`s claims. We all know what goes on in Korean government and corporations. Room Salon culture is solidly entrenched, and it was about time someone questioned it. And it was a foreign reporter. The above Korean blog goes on to say that the room salon culture is a bad thing that need to be acknowledged and be corrected. It`s like a paper that is crumpled up that needs to be expanded again.
The Finance Minister was cool with the question, but it was some Korean reporters (that explains some of their one sided nationalistic angled articles later), and some of the staff in the finance minister`s office who had the problem with the question. They thought it was an insulting question. They probably were shuffling their feet and wondering WTF is this foreigner asking such questions to our Finance Minister… he`s probably trying to insult Koreans. I can actually imagine how one of them would have expressed their displeasure at Mr. Ramstad after the press conference was over, and Mr. Ramstad shooting back `Fucking asshole!” .
The writer of the above blog mused it would have been better if Mr. Ramstad had said this if he was drinking with the guys in the room salon (instead of right after that press conference). Then all would have been forgiven and forgotten.
As for Ramstad, according to the Korean blog, he played an instrumental role in bringing the iPhone and Blackberry to Korea. Because of him, Korean consumers are enjoying the benefits that he helped to bring.
Did I miss anything else…
After reading this I get the impression that we shouldn`t be too hard on Mr. Ramstad. It`s just too bad he just couldn`t control his emotions during couple of key moments . I guess he`s sort of a shit disturber (I mean that in a good way). It`s just that authoritive figures in Korea may not appreciate his methods that humiliate them in front of the public.
cm,
Thank you for that summary. A good article indeed.
Thanks, cm. It took more courage than most of us probably appreciate for that Korea Times reporter to give us a more accurate and nuanced read than his paper is publishing. Wang-tta may await him.
Without the expletives, this case is similar to what happened to the U.S. broadcaster NBC when it covered the 1988 Seoul Olympics boxing incident. As that Korean boxer’s sit-in dragged on in what by any standard was an amazing and newsworthy spectacle, Korean TV did not show it and some Korean reporters shouted down non-Korean reporters’ efforts to put questions about it to officials. Next thing you know there were death threats made against NBC and the peacock logo baseball caps that were a sought after souvenir at the time were swiftly packed away. Some Canadian flags started appearing on tourist backpacks.
I was in the thick of that 1988 incident and that is why my initial comment on the Ramstad kerfuffle was to note that the Korean media have a different “prime directive” than their non-Korean peers. We saw that mission sense on display at Salt Lake City and Vancouver as well.
Reading the JoongAng Daily account gives me conflicting feelings. Ramstadt is to be given full marks for raising his questions given the timing, but it is regrettable that his use of profanity took attention from his main issues. Also, while it was certainly not his intent, it becomes somewhat of an accidental ethical issue when the reporter makes the news rather than reports it.
But having said the above, the Korean Government, regardless of administration, has been and remains to be remarkably thin skinned. I have spoken to Korean journalists who work in both for foreign media organizations as well as with Government owned media. And I have been interviewed on Government owned television and radio. The implicit – and sometimes explicit – understanding is one does not say anything negative about Korea in general and the Government in specific. In other words, the powers that be simply can’t stand direct criticism.
The good news is the country has boundless freedom of expression compared to that of 30 years ago, but there remains an incredible amount of restraint and self censure among the media unless one belongs to the “opposition camp.” And even that group when it gets into power, as we witnessed during the DJ and Moo-hyun administrations, the same restrictive rules and pressures apply against direct criticism.
So in a way, Ramstadt is doing a service by intentionally or unintentionally ripping off the scab that protects the patina of South Korean freedom of the press.
So while South Koreans have never had so much freedom, even now, there are certain areas where only the extremely bold and foolish dare to tread.
lost tag elf to the rescue.
alexwon,
Sycophancy does not work on me… at least not every time.
But I do love the last paragraph, so here it is translated:
^ which is correct…
drinking and public drunkeness would have forgiven everything. Because being drunk excuses everything.
Tom,
I respectfully disagree. What Mr. Ramstad did, and the manner in which he chose to do it, will only further entrench Korean government’s resistance to provide relevent and timely information to foreign correspondents. This episode has already affected his ability to do his own job.
Why some Korea observers would choose to hitch their grievances onto the Evan wagon is baffling. Are they trying to tell Koreans that rudness, purposeful intent to insult and profanity ladened tirates should be rewarded somehow? Should be looked up to? If that’s somehow the message here… it will become a lost message to the detriment of the real message Ramstad claimed that he cared about.
WK,
You know I dig you, bro, but I can’t imagine why anyone would want to come riding to the rescue in defense of any government bureaucrat, Korean or otherwise. I mean, c’mon. Kim Young-min? Really?
But since Evan is probably being 분노의 검색질-ed by the Korea’s Internet hounds even as we speak, I think it’s safe to say he’s not particularly pleased about how thinks have played our, either.
I’d say Young-min’s career is close to being over, and he doesn’t know it yet. But he pulled the janmori thing and changed the story for a short-term gain, so he probably thinks he’s gotten the better of the WSJ. But blowback’s a bitch.
We’ll see.
DLB
Are they trying to tell Koreans that rudness, purposeful intent to insult and profanity ladened tirates should be rewarded somehow?
- Well, they learned from the best. Sheeepal kaeseki waeguknomiya! Hangulmalhae! Miguknom!
the korean,
I tried my best. But thank you for the last paragraph. I also find it priceless.
Fortunately, cm translated – with a summary of the article for us. It should be enough for me.
WTF happened to “WTF” 주장 from the insider knowledge camp i.e. “I have it on good authority”
It’s now “fucking asshole”?
I was trying to play hangman with F_ _ _ _ _ _ A _ _ _ _ _ _ as was given on the latest Joongang article. I thought it might be Fucking Ajohssi. He should have thrown a shoe, instead.
If I’d said Fucking Asshole to my academic supervisor she would have thrown her shoe.
MrMao, that was awesome! Truly! I am not being sarcastic. I dig it!
And yet, my feathers remain strangely unruffled. Would only that Young-min were made of stronger stuff!
Cheers,
DLB
‘Why some Korea observers would choose to hitch their grievances onto the Evan wagon is baffling.’
they think they can do whatever they want in korea, so it’s not baffling at all.
Mao,
There is a difference between an exchange outside a bar in Itaewon or Hongdae or a relatively obscure exchange between an employer and employee at some private hagwon vs. an official press conference with a country’s appointed government officials. And I’m not defending Young-min at all. I have no idea what kind of Ministry official he is. Maybe he deserved to be yelled at? I don’t know. Wasn’t it Park Cheol-kyu that was the one who got yelled at by Evan?
Btw… My dad got yelled out a number of times at work because he didn’t understand the language all that well early on and I could see it on his face when he came home. I’m sure it feels like shit, particularly if you are in a foreign country and you don’t know the language very well. I don’t know if that means anything other then being a minority in a foreign land can feel like shit sometimes.
#19. “He should have thrown a shoe, instead.”
OK, I have to admit I laughed at that one..
WK, you are wasting your breath. Mao thinks Koreans are the same as Russians who go around randomly beating and stabbing foreigners.
I used to respect MrMao, but lately he entirely lost any sense of perspective.
Very balanced viewpoint from the JoongAng Daily:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2917674
Thanks for the sarcasm, DLB.
WK, I am a former hagwon rat but I ended my time in Korea at private and national universities, chaebols and non-profit religious organizations. I was not accustomed to being sworn at, either. But I still empathize with Evan: being a foreigner can indeed suck sometimes. And the officials attempts to brush him off were equally unethical: Women’s Day in Korea in 2010 is a joke.
Thekorean- I was randomly attacked on the streets of Seoul, and I can recall an incident in 2002 when a US military officer out jogging was stabbed on the streets of Yongsan-gu. Spare me the nonsense about Koreans being docile people. One should also mention the Burger King murder. Or do you want that particular Korean-American to remain as an American this time?
Pretty good JoongAng piece, WK.
“Korean government officials and the media get overly delighted by any tiny positive coverage about Korea in the foreign media … then they get extremely angry if the smallest negative coverage shows up in the same media.”
To me, the unique Korean angle in this spat is the role of the Yonhap and other Korean media in attacking Ramstad on that day and immediately after. I suppose that might happen in Beijing, too, but China is not a free country and its journalists are in fact government employees.
MrMao, I am done arguing with nonsense on MH. It is so easy to allege stupid things and shit all over the place, but takes so much effort to correct them and clean them up. Go ahead and believe what you want, because I really don’t care. I’m not going to try changing your incorrect opinion, and I merely urged WK to do the same.
AAK,
It sounds like Mao went through 2002 armored personnel accident. If so, that was a rough time for Americans and those who looked like Americans. It also gives you some insight as to Mao’s corporeal identity, but any ways.
If Mao is asserting that violent things happen to some foreigners in South Korea then he his absolutely right. If he is asserting that South Korea is just as violent to foreigners as Russia (minus Chechnya) then he is probably wrong. You know that, I know that… 99% of the people on this blog know that so let’s move on.
slim,
I don’t think it’s fair to compare Korea to China in this situation. The better comparison is Japan and foreign correspondents still have problems communicating with officials and getting information there.
Sorry…. not *still have problems* but “still have very similar problems.”
@WangKon936
Perhaps I’m being petty, but I think you should refer to “thekorean” as “TK”. I realize you are referring to the name of his blog, but some readers here may not visit it and thus be confused sometimes by who you are addressing. Just sayin’.
WK -
Yes, but I was talking about the nationalism of Korean journalists jumping into the fray as seemingly unique to Korea, but possible in China.
To me the actions of the local journalists in the Ramstad fracas was the most interesting element. (Not forgiving ER’s foul language)
Yes… But TK is not “TheKorean” he is just “A Korean.” Given that he is just a Korean among many Koreans he does not deserve the appellation of “THE Korean.”
That being said… okay, I’ll compromise at TK…
@thekorean,
Perhaps I’m being petty, but I think you should change your moniker from “thekorean” to “akorean”.
Yes slim. The JoongAng article and specifically the quote you referred to does have a very fair point.
Hey Iceberg, maybe you should be called Ice cube.
I have no problems with thekorean.
To me, the most interesting observation from this episode is that – oddly – the general public seems to be out-pacing the Korean media in acknowledging that, as Korea grows in prominence, it’s inevitable that its warts (as well as its glories) will come under increasing foreign scrutiny.
Ice Cube was already taken.
This may or may not be true. No matter what the correct answer is, your statement is precariously misplaced. The Korean journalist in this article is very much aware of whats going on and has a reasoned response to this silly event. Can’t say that for many of ‘the general public’, if based on the reactions in this blog.
I didn’t know that you were trying to be original.
Your response is misplaced.
The author of the JoongAng piece is an exception to the rule. It’s been widely reported that most members of the Korean media took umbrage at Ramstad’s question. The uproar over his profanity was initially a secondary issue. The reporter even writes:
Concerning the “general public”, I’m not talking about reactions on this blog. In fact, it’s laughable to think this blog represents the Korean general public. I’m talking about quotes like this:
As well as a few quotes on Korean websites that I’ve read on my own.
Iceberg? I think “Nemesis of Titanic” would have been quite original…
I was going to go with “floater”, but decided against it for obvious reasons.
Sixth one down…
http://hanshaupt.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/theshitlist8x6.jpg
Hmm. I guess it fits, because there is the occasional (figurative) touching of assholes here.
That Joongang Ilbo article is a great one. It echoed and summarized all the points that were brought out by everyone.
It’s the boiling pot that is boiling over. There must be some serious frustrations from both sides (foreign reporters) and Korean government.
You guys keep saying he swore at a Ministry Official. Didn’t he sware at Kim Young-min? He is just a ministry spokesman, not really someone important. He sounds like some ministry lackey to me. He probably is getting much worse from his bosses for bring all this into the press. I can imagine what he was saying to Evan, and then Evan let him have it back. I doubt Kim Young Min was behaving and talking to Evan the way a ministry spokesman should have been.
sware => swear
Gern,
You have it exactly right. That’s why I think Young-min’s days are numbered, and he might not even know it yet. He’s managed to turn his boss’s relatively deft handling of an awkward question by a foreign reporter of a major newspaper into a black-eye for both the Ministry, his boss, and the government, all while making the country look petty.
Hell, even Cheney dropped the F-bomb on a U.S. senator on the floor of the Senate. Since when are government types so sensitive? Maybe they need a stint in the real, er, business world.
DLB
Can anyone elaborate on how the reporter in question was instrumental in bringing the iPhone to Korea? It was mentioned above, but no details were given. I’m just curious.
Canarias,
The post says the Ramstad wrote an article in WSJ about the iPhone being blocked from being sold in Korea through various measures, and that US trade officials took this article to Korean officials to complain and eventually get them to allow it into the market.
The Korean article linked says that the reporter in question wrote several articles about the illogical Korean regulations that existed for foreign made smart phones and that these articles became instrumental in the government negotations between the US and Canadian governments and Korea that ultimately led to the introduction of the iPhone and Blackberry respectively.
I agree with WangKon…
Ramstad raised a good issue, but he should have used more tact. The jury is out on whether he actually gives a shit about the issue or was just trying to shit-stir.
In saying that, the unintentional result of his raising it, and the Korean press using the media as a tool of petty vengeance in response, has been to put the issue of room salons and the culture of corporate-condoned whoring in the spotlight.
My guess is that had he been polite and danced around the issue, the Ministry would have been polite and danced with him – then swept the issue under the rug.
It certainly wouldn’t have appeared in any papers.
As someone has already mentioned, the primary role of the press in democracies is (ostensibly) to inform. It’s also used as a tool to shape public opinion — in Korea perhaps more so than others. Usually in the ROK it’s used to project a political agenda (compare the same political stories in the 조중동 to the Hanky, for example), but sometimes its just used to project reporter’s/editor’s 의견 or 감정.
This case shows just how much leverage the Korean press-corp has in manipulating news to their own subjective ends. Unfortunately (or fortunately, as it may be), the unintentional result has been to highlight an issue than may otherwise have been ignored.
Does that mean foreign reporters should pat themselves on the back for being boorish asses? No. But nor do I think the foreign press should avoid asking the hard questions either. If the dissemination of news for foreign consumption was left in the hands of the Korean press, we’d be left with something approaching the KCNA. Not good for anyone.
@alexwon,
What are you? The fucking MH file clerk? Someone posted a link on this thread to the JoongAng article and my comment was related to it, as well as the original topic which led to this post.
srry – ignore the blockquotes…
isn’t there a problem of intimidation here ?
I can very well imagine the spokesman “scolding” the journalist for this question, Mr Ramstad feeling frustrated as he should rightfully feel as his question makes a lot of sense, especially on a day like this, and the tension building from there. like it builds in plenty of other situations…
and the spokesman is being cursed at ? AFTER the end of the press conference ?! wow, big news !!
then the public escalation with the local press weighing in, the “removal” of accreditation for Mr Ramstad, etc… it’s press intimidation ! it helps remind journalists not to ask this kind of question, or else they get in trouble…
the good point is that, based on the different reactions to the incident, a lot of people I believe are not buying it…
Iceberg, um chill out
Completely agree with hoju_saram in post #54.
DLB
all while making the country look petty.
- Yes, this behaviour does indeed make the country look petty but I think you are forgetting that this question was asked on Women’s Day. The mealy-mouthed response to it and the manufactured outrage make the country look sexist and out of step with the international community, not just petty.
Sorry
Sorry, WK and TK. I think that you underestimate just what it means to be attacked on the streets of any country, and just how hard it then becomes to have anything positive to say about the country for the rest of your life.
‘Sorry, WK and TK. I think that you underestimate just what it means to be attacked on the streets of any country, and just how hard it then becomes to have anything positive to say about the country for the rest of your life. ‘ mrmao
so why are you here on a korea related board then? are you here to antagonize koreans who’ve done absolutely nothing to you? is that your angle? that’s so cliche.
now rush to that ratings button.
I suppose that is a good question, but I think I am allowed to speak as long as I am not abusive. I have no problem with you asking.
Does Korea have unique forms of prostitution that cause a gender gap in major corporations and government positions?
Yoon narrowed the idea from “women” to “married women”, and “men” to “husbands”. It was not a clear question or answer. Does the reporter want to know if Yoon thinks there’s a relationship between prostitution and the gender gap in corporations? Does Yoon understand this is about everyone not just married people? I think Yoon deserves another go at it.
What is room salon culture?
I dunno H&T. Those are some heady questions. Why don’t you do some field research?
“Ramstadt is to be given full marks for raising his questions”
Tom, what part deserves full marks? There’s a relationship between going down to the bar and picking up a woman and more women in the work place? If we take away the path for men to party and have sex after work it somehow equates to more women getting higher level jobs?
Once more women are in higher positions they will somehow stop men from having affairs or seeking room salons?
I was badly robbed on the streets in the outer edge of Paris on my way back to the hostel. Beaten, money taken, ambulance called, the whole thing. I still dislike Paris, although I like the rest of France. (And the rest of France tends to agree with me.) But regardless of what I think about Paris or France in general, do you see me randomly bashing France at Ask a Frenchman?
As much as I dislike Paris, I know my position is subjective. I don’t tell anyone who is visiting Paris, “Don’t go! They are all robbers and thieves, those French!” But what do you do? You drop all perspective and just shit all over the place. One person, one act, one incident is good enough for you to make a wholesale judgment over an entire country, and you yell “Bullshit!” to anyone who expresses a different opinion.
So go on with your shit, because I really don’t want to spend the effort cleaning it up. I’m done arguing.
“Women’s Day” was fabricated by Socialists and Communists in the US and the Soviet Union for ideological purposes. Korea should repel this insidious weapon of Cultural Marxism.
The term “international community” as commonly used and used here refers to the liberal internationalist and globalist elite in America and Europe. There’s nothing “international” about it. Korea isn’t really “out of step” with the parts of the world that actually comprise most of the world and can be accurately labelled “international,” ie China, Russia, the Dar al-Islam, etc. If anything, it’s the globalist elite that’s out of step with the parts of the world that make up most of it and are truly international in nature. It’s the globalist elite that claims to act on behalf of some imaginary “international community,” and that wants to erode national sovereignties, to extend its various rent-seeking rackets over the entire planet, and to destroy all cultures and nations including those indigenous to its home or base territories.
Damn I love reading Minjokjuuija’s comments.
“I dunno H&T. Those are some heady questions. Why don’t you do some field research?’
Hey WK, getting too old for it all, ya know? Probably have a heart attack. I imagine my little dick is no match for some of these big, young, super healthy Korean women. I guess I could do some ajumma research, but then I’d probably end up in jail with a broken nose.
H&T you’re in luck! There are room salons for your demographic also!
And… as long as your Sejongs are green and plentiful your dick is as big as you want it to be…
Sejongs? You are cheap WK. It’s all about the Saimdangs now.
Although using a picture of the lady touted as a paragon of virtue in a room salon sounds… um…
Is anyone going to speak on behalf of the globalist elite?
While not condoning Korean dick parties, I must point out that it is not confined to Koreans.
This articles says Italian contractors hired 350 prostitutes to gain favor from politicians so that they get lucrative G8 conference building contract.
http://news.joins.com/article/460/4058460.html?ctg=1300&cloc=home|list|list2
Not 35. 350! Insatiable.
One politician got angry because the working woman’s husband come to early. What a pig! Married working woman?
Italians!
H&T you’re in luck! There are room salons for your demographic also!
I’m good, don’t need it. I saw those places in the alleys behind the Seoul Plaza Hotel. You know you’re too old when the hawkers don’t try to get you as you walk out of dunkin donuts!
Hawkers are not allowed to pick up foreigners. Foreigners carry VD, even AID.
….correction: “coming out of Dunkin Donuts with AIDS”
Only foreigners who got cleared from Korean National Health Ministry will be allowed to be served. All such Johns cleared carry a certificate of Purity which states “above named individual does not carry AIDS and allowed to engage in 1)Oral 2)Typical sexual activities while staying in Korea. The same person is prohibited from engaging in atypical or variant form of sexual acts.(they can do this when they get to their homeland) – Kim F**kS**k, the Korean Health Minister”.
This certificate is checked in every cathouse in Korea.
TK,
Cheap? Cheap!
Room salon culture 101. Always have the older 형님 pay. That’s not cheap that’s smart…
Four of my students work at the finance ministry. All middle-aged Korean men. I had lunch with them the other day, at an institute away from the ministry.
I brought up the press conference incident because I wanted to hear their take on it:
* While none of them were upset by the WSJ reporter’s question, they didn’t think it was polite.
* They agreed that the restrictions on the WSJ reporter would probably be only temporary.
* They didn’t know Kim Young-min.
* (Paraphrasing what one said) “The press conference was intended/meant as a celebration of the first-year anniversary of the Lee Myung-Bak’s …” (didn’t catch the rest, it was a loud cafeteria). I thought the word “celebration” was telling and symbolized a difference in what the two cultures think a press conference entails.
Grammar note: I notice that Tom above uses a capital “G” in “Korean Government.” I see it that way in many of the Korean government documents in English that I proofread. I always change it to a lower case “g.” I’m surprised to see Tom write it the other way.
Shouldn’t it be a lower case “g”? Or an upper case? Curious to hear what native speakers think.
I would like to know what going to a roombbang looks and feels like. Goddamn places cost so much frikken money…
“Damn I love reading Minjokjuuija’s comments.”
Pray tell, why?
Says the imp who said he doesn’t care what whitey thinks of him.
LOL
Minjokjuuija’s undergraduate sociology jargon-jammed comments are better than Ambien: no cost, no side effects, no prescription needed, just an internet connection. Linguistics professors could also use them to demonstrate how text can conform to syntax and grammar yet be incomprehensible because of nonsensical vocabulary.
One person, one act, one incident is good enough for you to make a wholesale judgment over an entire country,
- Actually, I spent enough time in Korea to have a well-thought out, documented, researched perspective on the place. I am not extrapolating from one incident, I am drawing upon years of experience. Suffice it to say that I saw, participated in and even began my fair share of violence in Korea. Shiny, happy people Koreans are not. Perhaps neither am I.
Korea isn’t really “out of step” with the parts of the world that actually comprise most of the world and can be accurately labelled “international,” ie China, Russia, the Dar al-Islam, etc.
- Totalitarian hell-holes. Great. Daehanminguk mansei.
Shouldn’t it be a lower case “g”?
- Yes, there is no need to capitalise common abstract nouns like “government” even if one is referring to the mighty Korean one.
Cries of another disenfranchised embittered expat. It sounds like you endured six years of psyshological abuse while you were in Korea. I suppose your hatred is totally understandable considering what you went through. But.. six years? really? It’s so cliche to call an englishee teacher a loser, a failure in life, etc, so I won’t do it. I’ll only warn you that your bitterness will eat away at you until you become another mizary.
Perhaps I’m being petty, but I think you should change your moniker from “Iceberg” to “anIceberg”.
#66 H&T I think you’ve got it back to front, the women might not have to take such work if they could get decent jobs in business. Albeit the logic still seems a little weak as someone would fill the void.
“Is anyone going to speak on behalf of the globalist elite?”
I’m fine, thanks for asking
“Room salon culture 101. Always have the older 형님 pay. That’s not cheap that’s smart…
”
WK – That’s all very well unless you are the 형님 !!!
I’ll only warn you that your bitterness will eat away at you until you become another mizary.
- I’m not bitter, just calling it like I see it.
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