It appears some experts are concerned the Dokdo ad running in New York’s Times Square might actually hurt rather than help Korea’s claim — or non-claim, as it were — to Dokdo:
While the two countries have maintained conflicting positions on Dokdo for decades, the official position of the Korean government has been that “there is no territorial dispute regarding Dokdo, as the Korean ownership of the islets is clearly backed by historical, geographical and legal basis.”
It is in this context that the government has opposed the proposition of a “special bill on the declaration of territorial rights of Dokdo.”
[...]
Under such circumstances, some experts say that the series of overseas ads may result in highlighting it as an area of international territorial dispute, rather than serving their original intent of strengthening Korea’s claims to Dokdo.
Meanwhile, it might be time to get that “liberate the puffins” collection going.
{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }
But . . . these are very simple facts. What’s the problem?
Some UN apparatchik will see that ad in Times Square and figure there’s a dispute going on that he’s never heard of, but that might make his sinecure a bit more justifiable if he looks into it, and next thing you know it’s a full-blown international dispute, which of course plays into Japan’s hands since they have nothing to lose. So yes, I’d call this a potential own goal, which is why it’s so funny.
Is anyone surprised?
“I’d call this a potential own goal, which is why it’s so funny. ”
Indeed – “hoist with his own petard”
Better to ignore the issue.
Even most Japanese, at least the older generation, believe that Dokdo belong to Korea. But, Japanese politician bring up this issue to appease rural fishery communities.
Most Japanese don’t even know about Takeshima to have an opinion one way or the other.
The average Toshi and Keiko only know about those French-discovered guano-covered rocks in the context of Koreans doing something batshit crazy which gets on the Asahi 9 o’clock news.
See, when it comes to these kinds of things, Koreans are very stupid.
I’m sorry, it’s true. Now, before I get accused of generalizing against Koreans, just ask how many Koreans you think would agree with this laughable embarrassing ad. I bet the big majority thinks this ad is doing a fine dandy job of making a case for Korea. lol.
That’s how out of touch Koreans are, when it comes to how the world works outside of Korea.
I guess Korea could learn something from the pollster Frank Luntz, who advises to play the race card and invoke ethnic cleansing, among other things, in making territorial claims.
Luntz also says in his actual report: “A simple rule of thumb is that once you get to the point of repeating the same message over and over again so many times that you think you might get sick—that is just about the time the public will wake up and say “Hey—this person just might be saying something interesting to me!”” and “K.I.S.S. and tell and tell again and again. A key rule of successful communications is“Keep It Simple, Stupid”. Successful communications is not about being able to recite every fact from the long history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It is about pointing out a few core principles of shared values—such as democracy and freedom—and repeating them over and over again.”
According to Luntz then, endlessly repeating the same messages and empty shibboleths is enough to persuade the American masses. In other words, he’s saying that the American masses are stupid.
I would agree that Koreans generally don’t know how the Western world works. But I would say that Koreans generally know how Northeast Asia works better than those outside of NE Asia. Also, I’m not sure that Americans know very well how America even works, let alone the world outside America. I suspect average Americans know less of how America works than average Koreans know of how Korea works, if only because of differences in the structural features like size, disparate nature etc. And Americans are known for being insular and not knowing much about the world outside of America. Despite invading and occupying parts of the Middle East, many Americans including people in government didn’t know basic things like the difference between Sunni and Shia, and how tribal Islamic societies “work.” Many still don’t.
This news blurb should go with that Scooby-Doo sound that Koreans make when things go “surprisingly” wrong…
Huh!?
#9, Minjokjuuija, the worst drivel I’ve read in a long while here.
Then Korea should go play in North East Asia which they understand better, but don’t come here to North America and spew this garbage that nobody except possibly some Gyopo’s would sympathize with. The Gyopos aren’t doing Korea any favor, by supporting this propaganda in foreign soil gone wrong. Koreans in Korea are ignorant about this, they should be told the truth, not handed out candies and patted in the backs.
#11
Perhaps since the last time you read one of Minjokjuuija’s other posts?
I’ll have to side with cm here. No matter how much media firepower is employed, the chances even a minimal percentage of Americans will notice/care about the Dokdo issue are very low, to put it mildly
“Scooby-Doo sound”, lol.
Like a crazy conspiracy theorist, it’s all coming together.
The reason that the koreans act stupid like this is because they are learning English in the wrong way. If language is a means of “effective” communication, learning English the way Gangpeh learned (immersion via culture) would have made it immediately obvious to the majority of the Koreans that cm “asks” that this is totally an uncool and ineffective way of getting our points across.
I still think the real reason that younger Koreans are becoming more adept at the language is through the internet and culture, rather than just because they are being taught by native speakers at their schools. Should make sure that this means of teaching communication English is encouraged.
I think the ad was a good idea.
Although the Japanese are more subtle, they lobby equally as hard for Dokdo Takeshima. However, these days thier lobby efforts are for the most part directed on domestic soil, aimed at mustering support in Japan.
The handful of Japanese lobbyists that highjacked Gerry Bever’s website, are feverishly promoting Japan’s Takeshima campaign in Japanese mostly because the can control the historical interpretations and data they present or omit.
I think the Japanese and Koreans should print Hallmark Cards for the Dokdo dispute like the one below.
Happy Takeshima Day
The taller one is the collaborator, right?
No, seouldout the taller one is a cartoon version of the Japanese in this illustrated 1905 report on the Russo Japanese war.
China-In-April-1905
It shows what happened to those who “collaborated” against Japan.
International advertisements advancing Korea’s agenda are generally incompetent. Sometimes they make no sense, especially in their “going green” campaign, or whatever it’s called: you, too, can save the world by eating everything on your plate? Sometimes, they use superlatives injudiciously, especially in describing certain aspects of Korea’s culture as being the greatest, the world’s best, or most of something or other. Sometimes, as in these Dokdo ads, they are so out of touch it is shocking. If it was just a little bit less unaware, it might be funny. But it’s not even funny. The magnitude of the wrongness and sheer randomness of the Dokdo campaign is beyond humor.
In contrast, Korea’s private sector makes splendid and sometimes truly gorgeous and impactful ads. Korean business have shown a remarkable ability to play with the various consumer advertisement formats, often merging art, pop culture, and romance. So the Koreans have shown they are good at making ads.
But what is the strategy behind these Dokdo ads? And who are the idiots behind them? I support their claim. But these ads cannot work to Korea’s advantage. If I went around telling any random person I know that a certain pet rock was mine and perhaps dropped hints that my brother had designs to take it, I do believe that I would elicit the same response from these random people as the world should have upon encountering one of these ads.
#19
If you want to talk about the injudicious use of superlatives, then you should check out the Arirang network sometime. The ads for “Dynamic Busan,” 한식, and others are cringe-worthy. And it’s all in English.
@ cm
I was being sarcastic.
I never said that it would work or even apply, that it makes sense and isn’t stupid. It won’t obviously, for various reasons.
If say a significant portion of the American masses believed in fairy tales like Dangun, and they worshipped Dangun and his son, and believed that Dokdo was divinely ordained to be Korean territory, that Koreans were Dangun’s chosen people, that Japanese were evil and terrorists, that supporting Koreans and Dokdo would help immanentize the eschaton, or had varying degrees of sympathy to this rough narrative or to some other such nonsense, then maybe it might work.
The point was that, as Luntz suggests, the American masses are stupid, insular, and don’t know very much of the world outside America, and that their positions on various issues, including issues much more serious and important than Dokdo, are largely the product of memetic manipulation. This isn’t something unique to the American masses, obviously.
hehe. “Dynamic Busan” actually has a truly remarkably phrased tagline: “Dynamic Busan: The World’s National Brand.” How curious! In this phrase, “Brand” obviously refers to their port city. So basically, Busan is marketing itself as the “world’s national city.” But what on earth could this mean? I think we can be generous and infer from the rest of the advertisement that they mean to say that Busan is one of Korea’s most important cities because of their culture, industry, commerce, infrastructure, and location.
But the fact is that the line is twisted in a pretty interesting way. It literally says that the community of nations has a single national city and that Busan is that city. But the way the line is supposed to work seems to be to inform us outsiders, as a matter of fact, that we affirmatively view Busan as South Korea’s most important city and that it is the city we think of when we think of Korea. Either way, how awesome!
I’m actually kind of grateful for this particular ad. I guess I’m a geek for unexpectedly strange use of language.
“The point was that, as Luntz suggests, the American masses are stupid, insular, and don’t know very much of the world outside America,”
Who knows what good these ads will do? If all the ads want to do is make people aware that such a place exists and that it is a major source of conflict between Japan and Korea, I think the ads do serve this purpose.
But the ads are clearly advocating on behalf of Korea’s position. My experience tells me that the ads are likely to fail or be counterproductive in this regard. But who knows. Maybe they do know what they are doing. I mean, I never even heard of Dokdo or that it is a source of strained relations between the two nations until about 2 years ago. My initial response on hearing about it was…meh. Only later did I decide that the issue needed to end soon in favor of the Koreans.
Korea’s claiming there is no territorial dispute with Japan while screaming and yelling everytime Japan even mentions its claim on Takeshima (Dokdo) reminds me of an old Bill Cosby comedy routine.
Bill Cosby used to tell the story of a guy in his high school Shop class who one day put a bullet in the classroom furnace. Soon the heat from the furnace caused the bullet to explode. However, instead of asking who had put the bullet the furnace, the Shop teacher said the following:
#23
>>Who knows what good these ads will do? If all the ads want to do is make people aware that such a place exists and that it is a major source of conflict between Japan and Korea, I think the ads do serve this purpose<<
I agree with regard to awareness. If Cuba ran ads saying "Guantanamo Bay is Cuban," it would make Americans aware that the place – whose name they are familiar with – is disputed. Similarly, if Canada ran a "Strait of Juan de Fuca" is ours ad – it would put this obscure dispute on the map. (I'd never heard of it either. Got it from Wikipedia's list of disputed territories).
However, the problem with Dokdo – and the argument the Korean critics of the ad strategy are making – is that it is already undisputedly Korean. By acknowledging a dispute, that ownership is diluted. The government strategy is to ignore Japan's claim. The trouble is that Public Sentiment misinterprets this as weakness.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a country so advanced in terms of technology but so inept in the art of persuasion. Advertising is simply not what Koreans are good at. Advertising in Times Square for a rocky islet? What a ridiculous notion and waste of money.
I swear upon my as-yet-unborn-child that this happened. When I saw lollabrat’s comment that said:
… I started writing a comment about how that will attract Mr. Bevers, then thought better of it. Mr. Bevers managed to stay out of this post this far, and there was no reason for me to tempt him. I thought, why not give the man benefit of doubt? So I erased my comment and got back to work.
Come back a little later, what do I see? Why, Mr. Bevers, right after lollabrats. Just too funny.
I support all of Korea’s ads on Dokdo and hope there are many more, not because they are convincing, but because they are setting Korea up for a big pie in the face. If Korea is willing to brazenly lie about Dokdo, then she deserves the public shame that is sure to come.
I can’t stand the fringe nationalistic horn blowing either, but Dokdo/Takeshima is not just a useless bunch of desolate pebbles.
There’s gas in them waters. $150 billion’s worth according to . That article also also notes fishing rights, claiming that 60% of S Korea’s 오징어 comes from the area.
Personally I hope S Korea and Japan can come to an agreement about sharing. The Japanese shouldn’t press the issue, but then neither should the Koreans beyond, say, 65% rights to the national resources. Both sides have real claims, but Japan should give up the majority (if not all) of its claims as a gift to Korea in apology for their grandfathers’ mistakes.
South Koreans in turn should be grateful for 65% or better, and stop worrying so much about all those grand fathers and great great great grandfathers…. Of course these guys who buy space in the NYTimes for their propaganda are almost mirror images of the ultra-nationalist speaker-van wackos of Japan. Dokdo is their would-be Alsace-Lorraine. Sane people and policy makers however will do well to either kick the can down the road while trying to tame domestic nationalism or, and perhaps it’s not a bad idea while the US security blanket is still on both sides of Dokdo, come to a sharing arrangement with a sincere intention of continuing to improve the relationship.
A question comes to mind: what does Korea have to fear from Japan today? I have a hard time thinking of anything at all.
#25
Mike, as someone who grew up in the area (my hometown is Seattle), I can assure you that there exists no active dispute about the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Perhaps, technically, no resolution was made, but there is no group of any size or real impact that seeks a change from the status quo. The Spratley Islands in the South China Sea – the sovereignty of which is hotly diputed, while the islands remain far from commonly known – might provide a better example.
Omg lol I turned the whole long comment into a huge link, sorry…
diputed -> disputed
As I’ve said Korea’s ads are a good idea.
These advertisements are simply a rebuttal to Japan’s repeated assertions Dokdo Takeshima belongs to Japan. If Korea simply sits back and just watches, her title will be degraded over time.
Remember, these are not government ads, they were paid for by private individuals such as Kim Chang Hoon. So, they really don’t reflect or affect ROK or official policy anyway.
Mr Bevers, I’m surprised you know anything about the Dokdo issue. Everyone else on “your” blog only posts in Japanese these days. They won’t even debate with me in English anymore. You do realize you’ve been kicked out of your own blog, right?
Frogmouth,
If that’s the case, then his blog isn’t the only place that’s kicked him out.
All these years of writing his crap about Dokdo…and ANOTHER teaching contract not renewed. *Shaking head in disbelief*
One of the best articles I read on Dokdo was Micheal Breen’s “There Ain’t No Do in Dokdo” in the korean times. Ownership of the islets would not change the territorial boundaries between them. Nor would it give Japan or Korea exclusive access to the resources around the islets. They are just a bunch of worthless rocks in the middle of the sea.
gbevers
I think you ought to put up just a bare bones brief of your argument for Japanese sovereignty over Dokdo instead of ripping in with bombast, sarcasm and no facts. Your tone is disturbingly reminiscent of the terribly off-putting Korean argumentation style. Perhaps you’ve been here so long it’s rubbed off.
I’ll give you an example of what I mean by facts. Japan claimed Dokdo on 28 Jan 1905 stating that the territory was , and I quote, “terra nullius . . . there being no evidence of its being occupied by any country.” The statement calling Dokto “terra nullius” (land belonging to no one) is highly significant as it serves as an acknowledgement that prior to this date Japan had no meaningful claim to Dokdo based on its historical activities. The statement is not disputed by Japan (in fact you acknowledge it on your own blog where you call it “the dicision [sic] by a Cabinet meeting”).
http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com/2007/11/28th-of-january-1905-dicision-by.html
The Japanese were well-versed in international law at the time and had full knowledge and understanding of the significance of the term “terra nullius.” What’s more in 1905 they were in the proverbial catbird’s seat as far as the power relationship between themselves and Korea. They could have written whatever they chose (and often did as evidenced by the Eulsa Treaty) but “terra nullius” is what they went with.
I dislike the Korean fuss about Dokdo as much as any sane man, but that doesn’t diminish their legal claim to the island in the slightest. The consensus among impartial legal experts (i.e. neither Korean nor Japanese) is that if a dispute was brought to the Int’l Law of the Sea Tribunal (http://www.itlos.org/) tomorrow the Koreans would win.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Imagine the sound growing fainter as I plummet to the pavement.)
Second that NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where have you been lmno…..you some kind of sado-masochist you want to inflict that on all us AGAINNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!
well, i did say” bare bones.” he can always link to the website. anything has got to be more persuasive than the citing Bill Cosby to win a legal dispute. who does that?
Something’s about to burst out of me, but I don’t know if it’s laughter or tears.
@lmno,
You have no idea how many bones you’re in for.
Here’s a Dokdo ad:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1KIkyGrYV5k/S5GovN1L9FI/AAAAAAAAA5E/f8ZDJZEUPp8/s800/Dokdo%20Billboard%203-5-2010%20001.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1KIkyGrYV5k/S5GovmXRUvI/AAAAAAAAA5I/s2zzJqzj45M/s800/Dokdo%20Billboard%203-5-2010%20003.jpg
This is off the 60 Freeway in SoCal, just west of Fairway. I pass it on the way to work every day. It’s been there a month or so, but it took me that long to remember to bring a camera with me.
LOL at that billboard, Zippy. Sponsored by a “premium Korean-style spa and sauna”! So commuters see it and think, “where’s this Korean spa island?”
The whole thing’s a farce, because there are reportedly reserves of natural gas around the islets that could be tapped by both nations if they got past the bickering and collaborated on exploration.
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