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I Guess I’m Supposed to Feel Sorry for War Criminals Now

Read this only with a barf bag readily available.

Interesting to see just how little the Hani cares about the suffering this creep inflicted on the POWs he abused. Lots about how a convicted Class B/C war criminal suffered, but precious little about his actual victims.

This is the part that left me most speechless:

Now recognized as a victim of Japanese forced mobilization, he receives 800 thousand Won ($692 USD) per year from the government as a health subsidy

A victim of Japan’s forced mobilization. Even though he volunteered. To be a prison guard. And he gets 800,000 won a year as a health subsidy. For abusing British, Australian and Dutch POWs.

I’ll quote dogbertt from the first time I posted on this subject:

Just when you think the hypocrisy and victimization complex truly can’t get any worse, the bar gets lowered. Incredible.

Said Mike Breen in a Korea Times piece in 2006:

They [the war criminals] were not tried as soldiers or POW camp guards who had done their jobs. They were tried for over-zealousness, for decisions and actions over and above the call of duty. They were the thugs, the brutes, the monsters, the most horrible of the “horrible people” my father’s friend knew. By what authority does the Truth Commission have to remove their individual responsibility with its class act defense of nationality? Such skewed morality led to the crimes against the lowest class _ “prisoners” _ in the first place. People who committed crimes against humanity are not innocent by virtue of being Korean any more than Japanese who brutalized Koreans are innocent by virtue of being Japanese.

I’ll also quote Oranckay:

What annoys me is that one hears sympathy for men who would be called collaborators if they had been working in prisons that held fellow Koreans during colonial rule. Their prisoners were (largely) white, however, so they are afforded as much understanding as possible. And they get to be called “victims.”

Heck, I’ll quote myself, too:

Had those men done what they did as guards at, say, Seodaemun Prison rather than the South Pacific or Southeast Asia, I doubt very much that a governmental commission would sympathize with the “double pain” they’d been forced to bear.

Of course, if you want the other side, there’s Lee “I Was Only Following Orders” Hak Rae in the Japan Times, or the Hani discussing the “complicated history” of Korean war criminals.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • http://www.xanga.com/wangkon936 WangKon936

    First!

  • keith

    Not only do I consider this old wanker a war criminal, I think Koreans should also consider him a traitor rather than a victim. It’s a shame the shit hasn’t hung himself in shame like some of his partners in crime, I guess he’s also a damn coward to boot.

    The Korean government should be ashamed of giving any financial aid to scum like this nasty old man.

  • hamel

    Your Honour, I would like to submit the entire contents of this book by way of explanation.

  • cm

    It’s a Korean type of thinking that based on being a Korean, he’s just an innocent victim. The sole reason being is that he’s a Korean.

  • Minjokjuuija

    Plenty of hypocrisy and complexes to go around. You have your victimization complex, and you have your hero complex of the “greatest generation” whose firebombing of Dresden, for example, gets conveniently ignored.

  • keith

    Oops! hung = hanged

  • hamel

    Minjokjuuija, I don’t think Dresden gets ignored at all, nor does the firebombing of Tokyo. Watch “The Fog of War” if you don’t believe me. Anniversaries of Dresden are always juxtaposed with the suffering of the civilians. And don’t get a southerner started about Sherman’s push to the coast during the Civil War. These things ARE remembered.

    In Korea, on the other hand, there seems to be quite an imbalance of memory. As someone who has worked in (South) Korean government propaganda, I wonder every year come August 15th why allied forces are not mentioned in celebrations of Liberation.

    Brian Myers in his book explains how Koreans (North and South) see themselves as an innocent child race, incapable of being evil, who are constantly abused and exploited by outsiders – the Japanese chief among them.

    This goes some way to explaining why it is so easy to excuse Koreans of war crimes, as long as they were committed against outsiders.

  • bumfromkorea

    I don’t think average Americans would know what I’m talking about if I start talking about “Dresden” (actual quote once: “Oh, that’s a terrible show”) and “firebombing of Tokyo” (another actual quote once: “It’s pretty lame talking about anime when you’re in college, dude.”)…

    Anyway, wasn’t there a global census established in Nuremberg that the defense of the city’s namesake is bullshit? Apply it to that asshole.

  • Minjokjuuija

    I’ve seen “The Fog of War.” I don’t see how citing a relatively obscure documentary that involves an old, retired bureaucrat near his death mentioning the horrors of WWII firebombing for a few minutes doesn’t support my point. Most people are not familiar with Dresden and it is not “remembered” in any meaningful sense at the social and cultural level. All I’m saying is that there’s plenty of hypocrisy and complexes to go around. There are prison guards who abused POWs that are classified as victims and receive welfare, and there are those who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians to death that are lauded, knighted and so forth. It seems to me that there are war criminals among both groups, but that they escape by virtue of either being innocent victims or glorious victors.

  • Anonymous Commenter

    Another thing to consider on the firebombings of residential areas during WWII, the Japanese and Nazi governments had spread the war industry into residential areas in order to discourage such air raids and continue the war effort. While this doesn’t completely absolve the countries that carried out the firebombings, the Japanese and Nazis did leave their citizens vulnerable and open to potential attacks. Ultimately, it is the civilians and the civilians only that are screwed.

    It does baffle me why Koreans wouldn’t consider him a traitor for volunteering to do such shit for the Japanese. I believe the Poles faced a similar situation with ethnic Poles collaborating with Nazis on a number of different “tasks.”

  • SomeguyinKorea

    #5,

    So, you’re suggesting we excuse his crimes as being the simple transgressions of a scared young man? But, isn’t that missing the whole point? There’s is such a thing as free will. You make your choices and you live with consequences. So it goes.

  • hamel

    Well, Minjokjuuija, you can certainly lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.

    If you can’t see something, then I am unable to make you see it.

    It is certainly true that one-eyed nationalists exist wherever you go. Some places are just better at soul-searching than others.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    “Another thing to consider on the firebombings of residential areas during WWII, the Japanese and Nazi governments had spread the war industry into residential areas in order to discourage such air raids and continue the war effort.”

    Again, what about free will? The Americans and Brits didn’t have to firebomb Dresden and Tokyo.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    “It does baffle me why Koreans wouldn’t consider him a traitor for volunteering to do such shit for the Japanese. ”

    I’m not sure they don’t. I wonder if this isn’t just a tactic to buy time for the South Korean soldiers who killed POW during the Korean War and students during the Kwangju massacre.

  • http://hunjang.blogspot.com Antti

    Robert, you should have quoted the original Korean-language story to correctly put war criminal in quotation marks (p’oro kamsihada ‘chônbôm’ nagin, “labeled ‘war criminal’ for guarding prisonerns of war”). Hankyoreh thus implies denial that they were war criminals in the first place, just victims. Hankyoreh, which supported the publication of the Encyclopedia of Pro-Japanese Persons both financially and editorially, also appears to find it regrettable that this man was regarded as pro-Japanese by other Koreans after his return.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Christ. Saw the Korean text this morning, but didn’t see the headline.

    Just when I thought that story couldn’t stink enough…

  • gangpehmoderniste

    I better stay away from this topic, if i want to avoid a nica ban…Grandpa was an SS officer in what is now Italian territory occupied by Croatia, well suffice to say that might is right notoriously and history books are written by winners, i don’t see why Korea should walk an extra mile to do “soul searching” when nobody else does.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    i don’t see why Korea should walk an extra mile to do “soul searching” when nobody else does.

    No one is asking them to do any soul searching, just to stop the BS denial, “revisionism” and “everyone else has dirty hands, too” excuses (see #5)(they didn’t, certainly not my three uncles who killed no one but official combatants and who spent years in Japanese POW camps in the “tender” care of Korean guards. They’ve forgiven and forgottenbut, if I ever ran across one of these gutless cowards like Lee Hak Rae, I’d be sorely tempted to open ‘em up with a dull butter knife just to demonstrate just how gutless they are

  • Minjokjuuija

    #11

    I’m not suggesting that we excuse his war crimes if he committed them. If you’re going to go after war criminals, go after all of them

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    many of the doctors of unit 731 went on to prominent careers courtesy of the us letting them go. robert excuses the us action by informing us that the us needed the information gleaned from vivisection. how do you feel about that, hamel?

    that’s what i thought.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Sperwer: i understand your feelings of intense hatred, i feel the same toward Croatians, probably though the best attitude is the one displayed by your relatives: forgive and forget, or at least pretend to do so, and move on with their life.

    Said so it is pointless to deny the fact Americans treated, on average, their POW better than most.

    Minjok and Pawi are not totally wrong though, lots of war criminals on each side went unpunished for political reasons

  • SomeguyinKorea

    gangpehmoderniste,

    It’s a fact that only 56 Chinese POW were released after the end of WW2 because Emperor Hirohito signed a directive that removed the constraints of international law when handling Asian POW.

    It’s a fact that they used starvation as a form of control. 10% of the population of Indonesia starved despite the fact that it was a rice producing country.

  • exit86

    Sorry folks, there is no excuse for these people.
    None at all.
    A select few of you here can try and shift the focus to other
    countries and their actions (“See, the US did this too . . .”
    “See Japan did this as well . . .”), but we all know it is BS.

    We all are responsible for our own actions.

    The fact of the matter at hand (I repeat . . . the matter at hand) is that this person
    obviously did bad things to other people willfully.
    A lot of other folks (who happened to be of Korean ancestry) did the same
    and worse things in WWII as POW camp/prison guards.

    Many were convicted; a few were executed; and recently, many were pardoned
    by the K. government for absolutely outrageous reasons.

    I trust the judgements rendered by the War Crimes Courts.

    I do not trust the judgements of certain avid commenters at Marmots.

    There is absolutely no excuse for what thuis guy did.

  • Minjokjuuija

    No one is asking them to do any soul searching, just to stop the BS denial, “revisionism” and “everyone else has dirty hands, too” excuses (see #5)

    Not making any excuses. Go after all the war criminals, including the gutless cowards who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians from the sky, instead of just making hypocritical tough talk.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    ‘I trust the judgements rendered by the War Crimes Courts.’

    ‘Their prisoners were (largely) white, however, so they are afforded as much understanding as possible. And they get to be called “victims.”

    there were two or three nipponese doctors tried for war crimes. they were the ones who conducted experiments on caucasian prisoners.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    @ 22:

    I’m not denying or let alone condoning Japanese war atrocities, did i give you that impression ?

    @ 23

    Well yes but here we gotta distinguish between the moral and the judiciary and political level (an ugly shit when these 2 mingle), as many here said lots of war criminals went unpunished for political reasons, what is the point now in the year 2010 AD in chasing after this specific extremely decrepit man with no relevance whatsoever ?

  • hamel

    how do you feel about that, hamel?

    Well, I…

    that’s what i thought.

    Oh he beat me too it. Rhetorical questions are great, aren’t they?

  • Minjokjuuija

    ‘Their prisoners were (largely) white, however, so they are afforded as much understanding as possible. And they get to be called “victims.”

    To be fair, the Germans don’t seem to be afforded much understanding. Which is partly why nobody goes after the Allies that burned tens of thousands of them to death.

  • bimbalimba

    You want to open Pandora’s box? What about Jews collaborating with Soviets during 1939-41 period in Eastern Europe …

  • rmeurant

    Are “soul searching”, “free will”, and “personal responsibility” valid constructs with which to critique (elements of) a collectivist society? Given the ‘profound’ lack of authenticity one encounters here, I have to wonder…

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Said so it is pointless to deny the fact Americans treated, on average, their POW better than most

    Yeah, while her sons were being tortured by the Koreans(/strike> Japanese, my maternal grandmother was taking home-cooked Italian meals to Italian POWs being held on Belle Isle in the Detroit River.

  • bimbalimba

    But anyway- as someone stated here- forgive, forget, move on … For me it’s interesting how Gypsies who were also victims of severe persecutions don’t hold any grudge in their collective memory- they really almost don’t care about it and never use it for getting sympathy or social/political aims.

  • keith

    The Nazis didn’t ‘need’ to do the blitz did they? In fact the fuckers didn’t even have to invade Poland either, did the Japanese really need to bomb Pearl Harbour. In war nasty things do happen, war is a very nasty business indeed. British, Australian, American, New Zealand and others in the Allied forces didn’t make it policy to use POWs as slave labour. They didn’t starve systematically them to death, they didn’t use them for medical-gas torture poison experiments. Whilst Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden were all nasty it was those cunts who started it all in the first place, it’s almost like the bully who gets his nose bloodied by his intended victim only to go crying to the teacher about it.

    Nasty things like Dresden did happen, but then the Germans bombed the crap out of many British cities and killed many civilians. The main difference between the European, African and Asian theatres of war in WWII is that the Japanese and Koreans under their command were brutal. By and large the Europeans operated with a fairly reasonable degree of courtesy and restraint in their treatment of POW. The experiences of allied troops captured by German forces and the ones captured by the Japanese and their Asian allies are markedly different.

    Most Allied combatant in Europe were on the whole treated reasonably well by their adversaries if captured, in Asia it is a different story entirely. The Germans biggest nasty business was their whole ethnic cleansing stuff that they had going on.

    I guess the difference is that the Nazis (who were scum there is no doubt) only saw themselves superior to some groups, such as the Jews. The Japanese saw themselves superior to everyone! Probably even, secretly, the Germans!

    Whilst I don’t agree with their opinion, conscientious objectors such as the Quakers and other pacifists are far braver than that nasty Korean cowardly bully-traitor-war criminal, at least those people have principles and a conscience.

    Saying these people are innocent because they’re Korean victims of Japanese imperialism is utter bullshit. Koreans endlessly going on about Japanese atrocities whilst excusing their own war criminals, and even defending Kim Jong Il’s regime because they’re ‘our brothers’ is just as bad as anything the Nazis or Japs every got up to.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Sperwer: sure, i know of plenty of episodes like that, quite frankly many soldiers here saw the POW of the Americans status as a Grace of God, as it meant eating good food every day, living in decent compunds and being treated like a human being…many actually immigrated after the war, took jobs in the area where they were imprisoned and married local women.

    But Italians, despite being a bit on the darkie side of things, were still treated as white people, things were different in Asia.

    I suspect being referred to as zipperhead, and being treated accordingly, leaves wounds difficult to heal. In another thread thy’re talking about this GI who tortured and killed a local Korean prostitute, i was shocked to read that American soldiers did shit like that, here in Europe they never did it….i suspect the standards of behaviour may be a bit more lax when dealing with non-white nations.

    Anyway it’s an ugly mess no matter how i try to look at it.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    ‘Whilst Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden were all nasty it was those cunts who started it all in the first place…..Saying these people are innocent because they’re Korean victims of Japanese imperialism is utter bullshit.’ keith

    ladies and gentlemen, i present to you ‘the contradiction’.

  • keith

    @33 – You cheeky little apologist you! I see no contradiction.

    You missed out the part about ‘it’s almost like the bully who gets his nose bloodied by his intended victim only to go crying to the teacher about it’.

    In school a kid a couple of years older than me did exactly the same thing after trying to bully me. The teacher said he’d have a chat with me, and subtly told me he would have done exactly the same thing and that sticking up for myself is good. The kid’s (the one whose nose I bloodied) bullying activities notably declined after I gave him a good clout! I was doing everyone a favour.

    The Korean war criminal scum was not coerced, like a good little Asian war criminal he even had to pass exams to get into his little let’s torture foreigners game! He signed up voluntarily to work with-for the Japanese.

    The Japanese have some good qualities, they invented Karate and it was through that martial art I was able to overcome a much bigger adversary. So the Japanese aren’t all bad.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Keith: yes sure it was the Reich who started the nasty shit, but that doesn’t change the fact lots of innocent people end up paying the price, and i’m not talking at individual level, i’m talking about entire groups of people.

    My family had to abandon Dalmatia, all their properties, their farm, their little lumber factory (all of it was burned and razed to the ground, Balkan Slavs are notoriously an extremely intelligent and rational lot) some got raped and butchered. Now this people lived there for centuries, imagine what the fuck they knew or cared about the Reich, the aryan race, the bombing of Coventry and shit like that.

    Still courtesy of the Brits we got sold to the Yugoslavs, who, despite the fact we always treated them well and taught them whatever little bit of civilisation they possessed (Dalmatia was by far the most prosperous area of the Mediterranean), behaved worse than the hordes of Huns.

    Similar shit in the Baltics, where local patriots allied with the Nazis after being oppressed for centuries by Russia: they got sold to Stalin after WW2. And the EUSSR has the guts to act shocked if they raise statues in honour of SS officers in Lithuania, i really wonder why.

    So i understand to a certain degree the Koreans: after the brutal Japanese occupation went pretty much unpunished (no Nuremberg for people who after all just slaughetered a few zipperheads), a civil war where the behaviour of the Allies wasn’t always sterling and shit like that, well i can see why they’re not overly zealous in chasing after their local bad boys.

  • Minjokjuuija

    @ keith

    I’m not excusing any war criminals. I’ve simply said go after all the war criminals, both those who abused POWs and those who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians to death.

  • keith

    @35 – Fair enough

    It’s nice some people can have a rational debate about this and not be all protective over everything our relatives did. This ability to reflect and have an intelligent debate is sadly lacking amongst some people around here.

    I am very critical about what I consider war crimes at Guantanamo Bay and that torture shit going on. However the majority of the prisoners are kept in a life of luxury compared to the life they’d be living in the squalid countries they came from. Not excusing the barbaric treatment of a few of the suspected terrorists there, but I don’t believe in torture and on the whole they’re fed, allowed leisure time and are not being subjected to a systematic forced labour-starvation policy as the Japanese and collaborators inflicted in Thailand and Burma.

    ‘The Bridge over the River Kwai’ is a film many people here should watch, even officers were pushed into forced labour. The Nazis, evil as they were, never did that and most British POW (even non ranked conscripts), to the Germans spent most of their time playing cards, doing chores and getting bored. The Japanese were not at all civilised in that regard

  • craash

    Wasn’t Emperor Hirohito the biggest War criminal?

    He was let go with no serious personal consequences, to continue being emperor of Japan, whilst his children were brought up in a luxurious lifestyle of sashimi and manga.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    “By and large the Europeans operated with a fairly reasonable degree of courtesy and restraint in their treatment of POW. ”

    Read ‘Slaughterhouse 5′ if you haven’t. The author, Kurt Vonnegut, was a POW who survived the Dresden firebombing. He wrote that the Germans were doing them a favor by putting them in such a beautiful city.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Vonnegut#World_War_II

  • SomeguyinKorea

    “‘The Bridge over the River Kwai’ is a film many people here should watch, even officers were pushed into forced labour. The Nazis, evil as they were, never did that and most British POW (even non ranked conscripts), to the Germans spent most of their time playing cards, doing chores and getting bored. The Japanese were not at all civilised in that regard ”

    My father knew Canadian soldiers who were taken to Japanese POW camps after the fall of Hong Kong in 1945. Those who survived the march were brought to Tokyo to serve as slave labour at the NKK shipyard (yes, that NKK). Near the end of the war, they were sent to coal mines. Hirohito had given the order to have them burried alive in the mines if Japan was invaded.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    Correction: the fall of Hong Kong in 1941.

  • Minjokjuuija

    When the victims are the Allies, it’s evil Japanese (& Korean collaborator) cruelty.

    When the victims are Koreans, it’s exaggerating and or lying Koreans.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    I have to somehow agree with Minjok here, only reason why the behaviour of the Japanese is seen as shocking in the West is cos they dared to treat whites in the same abominable way they treated their fellow Asians.

    BTW what the Japanese did is nothing different from most white colonial powers did around the world, European history is full of Unit 731 cases, as much as people should watch the River Kwai movie, they should also read Heart of Darkness.

    There isn’t one single ethnic group more hated than whites around the world, the gravatar i have shows the lynching of an English skinhead by Turkish hooligans. What is impressive about the pic is the sheer, wild excitement and joy displayed on the face of the Turks.
    Often Westerners don’t realise how much they are hated and despised around the world.

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    I have to somehow agree with Minjok here, only reason why the behaviour of the Japanese is seen as shocking in the West is cos they dared to treat whites in the same abominable way they treated their fellow Asians.

    BULLSHIT

  • MrMao

    When the victims are Koreans, it’s exaggerating and or lying Koreans.

    - In what way was this guy a victim? He signed up “to try new experiences.” He could have stayed in Changwon, it wouldn’t have been a nice place to live under the Japanese but he didn’t have to join the army.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Sperwer: evidence to back up your claim ? The soft treatment of Japanese war criminals is a fact, and i remember when i was in school, trying to happily kill time sleeping and playing Tetris on my Game Boy, being annoyed by countless discussions of the Holocaust, i don’t remember such emphasis being put on Japanese atrocities, but maybe it is our pathetic school system fault or maybe i slept a bit too much

  • Minjokjuuija

    @gangpehmoderniste

    I think the behavior of the Japanese against Westerners would be considered shocking regardless of if and how Asians were victimized, because it was brutal. My point was that during discussions here about Korean victimization under the Japanese, there’s a tendency among some commenters to suggest that Koreans are exaggerating and or lying. Whereas when it comes to Western victimization under the Japanese, there is no such tendency, but rather an opposite one.

  • Minjokjuuija

    @MrMao

    I didn’t say he was a victim. You misunderstood my comment.

  • Minjokjuuija

    i remember when i was in school, trying to happily kill time sleeping and playing Tetris on my Game Boy, being annoyed by countless discussions of the Holocaust, i don’t remember such emphasis being put on Japanese atrocities, but maybe it is our pathetic school system fault or maybe i slept a bit too much

    I can understand this though. Since it’s Europe, it makes sense to emphasize the Holocaust over Japanese atrocities. It’s more relevant there. Just like the Japanese atrocities are more relevant in Korea and Asia. Which is why it’s annoying when some people tell us to shut up and “stop whining” about the Japanese because “it wasn’t the Holocaust.”

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Minjok: what i meant is that if the Japanese limited themselves to brutalising Asians and had respected some code of conduct with white POW, the Western world would care even less about their atrocities

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    Gangpe: I wasn’t reacting to your statements re the relatively soft treatment of some Japanese war criminals, but your unsubstantiated (and implausibly absolute) claim that the “only” reason Japanese atrocities against whites were regarded by the (implicitly, entire) “West” as more heinous than similar atrocities perpetrated against non-whites was the race card. The burden of proof is on you, paisan.

  • Minjokjuuija

    @ gangpehmoderniste

    I see what you mean. I agree, I think you’re right. And if that were the case, I don’t think it would be due to malevolence or anything like that on the part of the Western world, but simply the fact that people have limited cognitive and emotional resources. People will care more about things closer to their world and experience.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Sperwer: counter proof being that pretty much the only Japanese who paid for their crimes are those who were involved in war crimes against Western POW.

    That’s a familiar pattern by the way, viking boy, did you ever meet many people concerned about the Burmese massacre of the Karen or any other shit going on around the world, unless it’s the pet project of some retarded, coked-up Hollywood scumfuck ?

    About one thing you’re right though: implying the whole West (or even a significant chunk of it) has an opinion about this shit is a gross exaggeration. Most of the West is conerned only about doing K in week end, putting another pair of Diesel jeans on a maxed out CC and gettin laid with whores met on the internet

  • http://ghosttreemedia.com hoju_saram

    I think these guys were both victims and criminals. I’ve read alot about Australian POWs in Burma/Thailand/Java and it seems that some of them felt sorry for the Koreans – recognising them as being indentured slaves of a different kind – while others hated them for their particular brutality, a sort of hand-me-down cruelty given to them by their Japanese masters. There’s no doubt they had a notorious reputation, particularly in places like Thanbyuzayat and Changi.

    It’s a shame the Hani feels the need to dig up these old, pitiful stories for their own political ends. Strikes me as grasping and disrespectful. If you read the article, you’ll notice that the gy himself doesn’t seem to be the one pushing for recompense (I could be wrong). Instead it seems like the Hani is the one pushing the angle and agenda.

    I found this line particularly interesting:

    What really frightened [Kim's daughter] was his habit of sleeping with his eyes open. He would say things in his sleep like, “If you do not do it, you will die.”

    The Hani seems to be suggesting that he is expressing his feelings of pressure from his Japanese superiors. But could he be remembering what he did/said to the prisoners?

    http://www.awm.gov.au/exhibitions/stolenyears/ww2/japan/burmathai/story1.asp

  • Minjokjuuija

    @ gangpehmoderniste

    There seem to be many cause celebres in the West, but some tragedies like Dresden and the Holodomor that are very “close to home” so to speak are ignored or unknown.

    Mention the big H word (Holocaust) and like zombies people seem to go into paroxysms of moral indignation and preening.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    Minjok: exactly, everybody has limited emotional resources to invest ! I for example have no problem admitting i don’t care that much about, just to name a few, the plight of the Darfur or the atrocities committed by the Kaibile of Guatemala, but i find it a bit ridicolous that people seem to be outraged by the fact that modern Korea basically shrug their shoulders at the notion that some of their old farts back in their heydays in order to get a paycheck roughed up a few white asses.

    Nobody else seems to give a shit about the local mischiefs, why should the Koreans ?

  • http://www.sperwerslog.com Sperwer

    i find it a bit ridicolous that people seem to be outraged by the fact that modern Korea basically shrug their shoulders at the notion that some of their old farts back in their heydays in order to get a paycheck roughed up a few white asses.

    Would that modern Korea only shrugged its shoulders; instead it tries to excuse, “victimize”, justify, and honor these specimens of pond scum.

  • Arghaeri

    “Dresden gets ignored”,

    When! I’ve seen no end of documentaries on it, and I guess Air Marshal Harris became infamous as “Bomber” Harris and “Butcher” Harris because it was ignored!!

    Crikey, try and live in the real world sometimes, instead of just kneejerking against every post or comment which isn’t rosy for korea.

  • Arghaeri

    Being unknown in Korea doesn’t make it ignored where it happened.

  • Arghaeri

    I guess you’ll claim “The World at War” as a little known obscure documentary too, despite being even 30 years after its making being voted amongst the top 20 all time greatest television programmes in the UK.

  • Arghaeri

    “Again, what about free will? The Americans and Brits didn’t have to firebomb Dresden and Tokyo.”

    and the Germans didn’t have to firebomb Coventry either or invade poland, whats your point it was a war and there has been a lot of navel gazing about it since, and certainly no denials, despite Minjus claim to the contrary !!!

    Its also slightly different circumstances from maltreating unarmed prisoners who you’ve already got safely penned up.

  • Arghaeri

    “I’m not suggesting that we excuse his war crimes if he committed them. If you’re going to go after war criminals, go after all of them”

    Who’s going after this guy, the complaint is that he’s being lauded as a “victim” despite his history.

  • MrChips

    “Often Westerners don’t realise how much they are hated and despised around the world.”

    Maybe they do and they simply acknowledge the depths to which people will go to excuse their own misfortune as, surely, someone else’s fault. I really don’t give a shit if people around the world despise westerners. Given what I’ve seen around the world, that tells me westerners must be doing something right to be so identifyingly different then the rest of the world. Sure, chalk it up to arrogance. It’s ok, I’ll get over it.

    As to the “greatest generation” spoken of a bit earlier in the thread, no matter what laurels are laid at their feet or what horrible things they “may” have done, surely nothing compares to the atrocity they committed by giving birth to the most pathetic generation our country has ever seen.

  • hamel

    When an abused child later becomes a kiddie-fiddler, he changes from victim to abuser.

    The oppressed become the oppressors. It is a pattern repeated throughout world history.

    And yet it is the choice of each individual person to continue that cycle or to stop it.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Truth be told, I might be able to simple shrug and give this story a pass… but it’s coming from a newspaper — and a presidential truth commission (albeit a different one) — that gave us this steaming turd:

    http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/377011.html

    A subject, BTW, that’s apparently becoming an issue in the June local elections:

    http://www.kyeongin.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=502770

  • gangpehmoderniste

    @ 65

    I never said i feel particularly sorry for angry third worlders, i basically don’t care much about them and i don’t expect them to treat me differently.

    Also don’t assume their hatred stems only from some kind of repressed envy, some of the most anti-western people i ever met were the upper middle class youth of Gulf countries. People who enjoy a standard of living that make suburban white Americans look like a bunch of sheepherding hicks.

    You don’t need a specific reason to hate, it’s part of our nature, we just do it

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    gangpe, could you give a few more details about the lynching in your gravatar so i can some info on it? grazie, lei sono gente belle.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    pawi:

    here’s a link with the story of what happened, top pic is a classic:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/703283.stm

    grazie e buona giornata !

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    molte grazie, seniore. have a buon giorno.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    re gangpe’s link to violence and soccer: does this kind of shit happen in korea? nope, but damn koreans for their nationalism! i just couldn’t imagine the yemaek ever doing something like that.

  • seouldout

    Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki…all deserved. Should have done Moscow, too. Knocking out Stalin would have been appreciated by most of the world.

    On important anniversaries they ought to be bombed again, as a reminder. Don’t fuck w/ the Anglophones.

    That being said, Little Boy and Fat Man owe apologies to the gaggle of peninsular freedom fighters who, by having a flotilla of 4 6 rowboats, hatched a cunning plan to invade Japan, end the war, and grab the glory.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    hey anglophone hero do i really have to remind you your lot is getting bitch-slapped by a bunch weirdbeards living in caves ?

    Recently they seem to be fucking with the anglos back and forth, up and down, really well

  • WeikuBoy

    “[T]he Japanese atrocities are more relevant in Korea and Asia. Which is why it’s annoying when some people tell us to shut up and ‘stop whining’ about the Japanese because ‘it wasn’t the Holocaust.’ “ [emphasis added]

    No; what’s annoying is when Koreans try to conflate WWII-era Korea and WWII-era China, as if Japan’s behavior in Korea was remotely as cruel as the Holocaust OR Japan’s behavior in China and SE Asia.

    I’m not saying the Japanese Occupation of Korea wasn’t dreadful. But with the exception of the comfort women there just don’t seem to have been the number or type of atrocities as took place in other countries.

    Again I ask: if the Japanese occupation of Korea was a Holocaust, why didn’t Koreans join the Chinese and Filipinos and other Allies? We’ve all heard of the French Resistance; why was there no Korean Resistance?

    The worst the gyopo nationalists in this forum can come up with is that for a few years their ajosshi ancestors were denied the exclusive privilege of abusing Korean women.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    japan visited a cultural holocaust on korea. that’s that.

  • Anonymous Commenter

    why was there no Korean Resistance?

    Didn’t we go over this in one of the previous open threads?

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    I’m not excusing any war criminals. I’ve simply said go after all the war criminals, both those who abused POWs and those who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians to death.

    That’s the same line of bullshit logic that Japan apologists make when Korea demands atonement for Imperial Japan’s crimes. No thanks. It makes no sense for this scum to be honored in Korea in any way.

  • Minjokjuuija

    I never said honor this scum. What is bullshit logic is the hypocritical fury that goes after guards who abused POWs and are now considered victims and receive welfare checks, yet ignores the pond scum who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians to death and are considered heroes and lauded, knighted, and so forth. The “I was a victim” and “I was only following orders” excuses don’t fly, and neither do the “War is war” and “War is hell” ones.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    I never said honor this scum.

    Sure I’ll give you that. Instead, what you’re saying is “hold off until all other scores are settled, and then come back for this.” It is the same thing as: “Koreans don’t deserve any apology from Japan, they committed atrocities in Vietnam!”

    It’s still bullshit. The post is about the scum who deserves no sympathy. All that needs to be said is that the scum deserves no sympathy. Anything else is a distraction that takes away from the main point. There was a wrong. It must be redressed. Nothing more needs to be said.

  • Minjokjuuija

    Instead, what you’re saying is “hold off until all other scores are settled, and then come back for this.”

    I never said that. I’m just pointing out hypocrisy. By all means, go after this guy. Many of the “other scores” are untouchable and politically radioactive. They will never be “settled.” The point is that there are people who did a lot worse than this guy that will never get hounded unless something very drastic and unlikely, like German nationalists rising up and wishing to redress old grievances, were to happen.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    Instead, what you’re saying is “hold off until all other scores are settled, and then come back for this.”

    I never said that.

    Oh?

    If you’re going to go after war criminals, go after all of them.

    Or…

    I’ve simply said go after all the war criminals, both those who abused POWs and those who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians to death.

    Or…

    Go after all the war criminals, including the gutless cowards who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians from the sky, instead of just making hypocritical tough talk.

    All your words. And they all state that in order to go after Korean war criminals with moral authority (or, in the very least, while avoiding charges of hypocrisy,) one needs to address other war crimes simultaneously. That’s not true. People may focus on one wrong at a time. No one can get simulatneously outraged at every equivalent moral wrong at all times. To label that inability as hypocrisy belies either ignorance of human nature, or a deliberate attempt to water down the wrongfulness of the topic at hand.

  • gangpehmoderniste

    @ 32 bimbalimba:

    You are kidding right ? I don’t know what gypsies you are referring to but here they’re some of the biggest whiners and some of the most voracious welfare recipients we have, on top of living in traveling trailer parks and sending their kids to beg and steal

  • exit86

    pawikirogii wrote:

    “re gangpe’s link to violence and soccer: does this kind of shit happen in korea? nope, but damn koreans for their nationalism! i just couldn’t imagine the yemaek ever doing something like that.”

    Ha! You obviously did not live in Korea–as a visible non-Korean–during the World Cup, particulary the match between the US and Korea.
    I have more than a few stories about similar violent episodes (though not as extreme to the death) .
    I myself came way too close to being jumped by some wonderful Korean fans during the US/Korea match, after having been warned by my MA master
    on that very night not to walk home due to the danger of being jumped by over-zealous football fans. My exact response to his well-meant warning was: “Its okay. Korean fans aren’t that bad. Are they?”

    You obviously haven’t lived in Korea–as a visible non-Korean–during any of the various anti-US protests in downtown Seoul.
    I have more than a few stories about friends being assaulted at these events as well.

    Sorry dude, Koreans are human beings too. hen humans get in big groups, they end to do stupid things. In such stupid-thing-doing groups, there are always
    a few jerks who take things more than a bit too far.

    Welcome to the Human Race.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    please show photo evidence because i don’t care what YOU say. your experiences mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. please show photo evidence of being attacked by koreans. not just one or two incidents. please show trend. thank you, little boy.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    http://www.sirc.org/publik/football_violence.html

    a research paper on sports nationaalism and violence. korea isn’t mentioned for some reason.

  • Minjokjuuija

    To label that inability as hypocrisy belies either ignorance of human nature, or a deliberate attempt to water down the wrongfulness of the topic at hand.

    To label that inability as hypocrisy is to recognize human nature. I don’t need to deliberately water down anything. The facts speak for themselves, and anybody not brainwashed by Allied propaganda can recognize them. Among war crimes, abusing POWs pales in comparison to burning tens of thousands of innocent civilians. As for moral authority and focusing “on one wrong at a time,” I think the comments above whitewashing or disputing altogether the status of various large scale war crimes while zealously going after POW abusers tell us all we need to know.

  • Gyeonggi Doh

    #86
    Could have something to do with the fact that the paper’s title is “Football Violence and Hooliganism in Europe”….

  • Won Joon Choe

    Omigod. Stop the presses–the Korean and I actually agree on something that relates to the Japanese Occupation! :)

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    probably. know of any paper on korean hooliganism? the poster said there was similar violence in korea. there isn’t. anyone murdered or beaten to a pulp during wc in korea due nationalism? if so, i’d like to see a link.

  • exit86

    Sorry pawi, I didn’t have a camera readily available as I was being assailed by the four drunken K. football fans. I apologize as well for my friend who also didn’t have a camera available when he was sucker-punched in the head from behind as he was walking home on the very same night. I also want to apologize for my other friends who didn’t have cameras readily available when they had their unfavorable encounters during the anti-US protests in Seoul. I do know one older guy who was stabbed with a small knife at a protest about ten years back; and he did have photos taken by the local police at the hospital, but I think it might be difficult to procure this pictorial evidence.

    Therefore, please accept all of our apologies. The next time I or anyone else I know is being assaulted, we’ll make sure to have cameras up and ready.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    To label that inability as hypocrisy is to recognize human nature.

    What does that even mean? I said humans are by nature unable to simultaneously focus on all wrongs at the same time. You are labeling that inability as hypocrisy. So human nature is hypocritical? Then how is any such hypocrisy blameworthy any more than human nature for occasional mistakes?

    More generally, can’t you see you are engaging in the same twisted logic that you so gleefully attacked just a few days ago here? You are exactly the kind that enables the morally deficient Japan apologists to engage in the same fucking logic: “Japan doesn’t need to apologize for Comfort Women, look at all those Korean prostitutes in Korea!”

    바보 자식아, 그렇게 맹목적으로 짖어대는게 정말 국가와 민족을 위하는 거라고 생각하는거냐? 생각을 하고 살으란 말이다.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    최 변호사님, 돌아오셨군요. 반갑습니다. :)

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    you say the same kind of violence or something similar happens in korea. please back up your claim w proof. what you say is not proof. please back up your claim that sports violence in korea is the same or almost the same as in europe.

  • Won Joon Choe

    The Korean,

    I always do things in binges–whether it be eating, sleeping, reading, writing, or, at last, Blog commenting. So I was never gone; and unlike Nixon after his notorious gubernatorial election loss, you still have me to kick around! :)

    I do owe you a private e-mail, and I hope our recent exchanges have not inspired or intensified bad feelings between us. As you said of another commenter with whom you have sparred in a rather acerbic manner, I would not waste time with you if I did not think you were extremely talented (obviously far more so than me as a writer) and worth reforming for the good of the Blogging world! :) And getting into quasi-ad hominem exchanges in public is obviously not the right way to do it. Yet, alas, the old polemicist in me dies hard!

  • Won Joon Choe

    “바보 자식아, 그렇게 맹목적으로 짖어대는게 정말 국가와 민족을 위하는 거라고 생각하는거냐? 생각을 하고 살으란 말이다.”

    Ouch. Substantively true but unlike the Korean in the mode of presentation! :)

  • SomeguyinKorea

    #45,
    “I have to somehow agree with Minjok here, only reason why the behaviour of the Japanese is seen as shocking in the West is cos they dared to treat whites in the same abominable way they treated their fellow Asians.”

    To think you wrote after I mentioned how most Chinese POW were killed in a reply to one of your comments in which you appear to deny the severity of Japanese war crimes (something about history being written by the victors)…Now, that’s pretty fucking ironic.

    PS. Turkey is in Europe, which makes Turks Westerners.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    I do owe you a private e-mail, and I hope our recent exchanges have not inspired or intensified bad feelings between us. As you said of another commenter with whom you have sparred in a rather acerbic manner, I would not waste time with you if I did not think you were extremely talented (obviously far more so than me as a writer) and worth reforming for the good of the Blogging world!

    뭐 괜찮습니다. 남자끼리 뭐, 그런 거 가지고 꽁하면 쓰겠습니까. 제가 물론 최 변호사님 마음에 쏙 들게 “개종”될지는 잘 모르겠습니다만, 한가지 이슈에 집중해서 심도있게 토론하는 것은 언제나 환영입니다. 이메일 기다리겠습니다.

    Ouch. Substantively true but unlike the Korean in the mode of presentation!

    I do get into a harsher mode when I switch into Korean, consistent our people’s temperament. :)

  • Sonagi

    I always do things in binges–whether it be eating, sleeping, reading, writing, or, at last, Blog commenting.

    The list seems incomplete. I guess you’d prefer we make inferences about other regular activities.

  • Gyeonggi Doh

    #90
    no. But the poster was speaking from a personal experience. Although I have had no such experience in Korea, I’m not that surprised that some have or had. 2002 was the perfect storm for Korean nationalism. The WC was only one of the ingredients though, Ohno’s medal, axis-of-evil, the US army accident (although not widely reported until after the WC) all combined to create some pretty ugly scenes.

    In general I don’t think Korean sports nationalism is violent though. It’s goal is more domestic in nature and follows the “Korea has no natural resources and must rely on it’s human capital” theme. When something controversial happens though it quickly turns into something resembling victimization.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    Pawi,

    Yes, South Korea doesn’t have the problem of hooliganism as they do in Europe, but fights occasionally break out at Korean sports games. Just recently, I saw the video of a few sports fans fighting at a game in Korea while the crowd cheered them on (according to the caption, it was at a baseball game in Pusan).

  • Wedge

    This guy is scum and deserves to be put in jail, not to be given additional government handouts. End of story regardless of world history.

    Firebombing, shmirebombing. Thank God people like Curtis LeMay, Bomber Harris, Winnie Churchill and Harry Truman had the sac to go out and win wars back then. With the exception of Stalin, the bad guys with the worst ideology, who by the way happened to start the conflict, lost. Get over it.

    In Afghanistan, our troops have such a restrictive ROE that they’ve been quoted as likening it to fighting with one had tied behind their backs. But, as Dr. Lankov says, that’s another story.

  • Minjokjuuija

    This isn’t about a mass of impartial “humans.” This is about different groups asserting their interests and engaging in memetic competition. It’s not a function of logistics, of the constraints of time and resources. It’s a function of interests, the pursuit of which involves hypocrisy. Prosecuting these POW abusers is not going to be followed by prosecuting much more serious war crimes involving the burning to death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. These much more serious war crimes are whitewashed, disputed altogether, and are rapidly going down the memory hole. Your analogy of the Japan apologists doesn’t apply. Unlike them, I don’t have a problem with prosecuting POW abusers for war crimes. And the Japan apologists are contrasting their own war crimes with something that isn’t a war crime (Korea prostitutes in Korea) whereas I’m comparing the POW abuse with war crimes of much greater scope, the burning to death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

  • Gyeonggi Doh

    Comparing the bombing of Dresden, or Coventry for that matter, with the behavior of Korean POW guards makes no sense at all. The POW guard issue is more to do with collaboration. If truth and reconciliation is truly the goal then these crimes must be seriously put under the microscope. Yes, the Korean guards were working for the Japanese but did they have to do their jobs with such ruthlessness? Their treatment of their enemy’s enemy was inexcusable. Just as Vichy France was confronted so must this issue. Until Korea does this the Japanese have the ammunition to make ridiculous comparisons to play down their war crimes. Kind of like comparing POW guards to Dresden.

  • http://pawikirogii.blogspot.com pawikirogii

    that’s not what he said. you let him fight his own battles.

  • Sonagi

    Prosecuting these POW abusers is not going to be followed by prosecuting much more serious war crimes involving the burning to death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

    The post that spawned this thread is not about prosecuting further camp guards already convicted of war crimes. It is about properly identifying them as criminals, not victims, and withdrawing their public benefits.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    This isn’t about a mass of impartial “humans.” This is about different groups asserting their interests and engaging in memetic competition. It’s not a function of logistics, of the constraints of time and resources. It’s a function of interests, the pursuit of which involves hypocrisy.

    이 미꾸라지같은 색히가 똑바로 대답 안 하지? I’ll ask you again: if, as you allege, everyone is innately hypocritical, what is the use of pointing out that hypocrisy?

    Prosecuting these POW abusers is not going to be followed by prosecuting much more serious war crimes involving the burning to death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. These much more serious war crimes are whitewashed, disputed altogether, and are rapidly going down the memory hole.

    Sure. Fine. That’s correct. If you are so concerned about Dresden, please do join the effort to prevent the whitewashing of Dresden. It’s a worthy cause. But my question is this: what is the point of bringing up Dresden here? What purpose does it serve, other than making true 민족주의자들 look ridiculous with your garbage logic? If your answer is “to point out hypocrisy,” read the question above this one.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    Gyeonggi Doh,

    Excellent points. Makes me wonder…Is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission effectively serving the truth and reconciliation? This guy’s crimes took place abroad and his victims were foreigners, so how does absolving him of his crimes serve the truth and help further national reconciliation?

  • SomeguyinKorea

    …I guess that’s all we’ll get since the truth could put some very powerful corporations in very difficult positions.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    …I guess that’s all we’ll get since the truth could put some very powerful corporations in a very difficult position.

  • http://populargusts.blogspot.com/ bulgasari

    B.R. Myers’ book The Cleanest Race (mentioned by Hamel in #3 and #7) describes how Japanese propaganda about being a uniquely virtuous race was used by the North Koreans in their propaganda, and writes that, “Because Koreans truly were as the perfidious Japanese had only claimed to be, i.e., inherently virtuous, never evil by nature, all atrocities they had committed during the Pacific War were ascribed to duress and quickly erased from the collective memory. Koreans had done nothing under the Japanese but suffer.” A note to that passage reads: “Much the same myth is propagated south of the DMZ. In 2006 a South Korean government commission announced that of eighty-six Koreans convicted by the Allies of war crimes, eighty-three should be regarded as blameless “victims of Japan.” A telling exception was made for those who had committed crimes against other Koreans.”

  • Minjokjuuija

    @ thekorean

    As a practical matter, I don’t have a problem with throwing these POW abusers to the wolves and forgetting about everything else.

    But the interests of the truth alone are enough to justify cataloging hypocrisies wherever they exist. Just because everybody has a tendency towards hypocrisy doesn’t mean you just give up and don’t point them out, just as innate tendencies towards crime doesn’t mean you don’t point out crime.

    And hypocrisy and claiming morality are important parts of groups asserting their interests and engaging in memetic competition. You might not realize or understand it, but you’re naive and wrong if you think that you’ll be able to reap dividends by appeasing people, not pointing out their hypocrisies, and constantly stroking their self-important moral hard-ons. Consistently ceding the moral high ground to hypocrites is a recipe for disaster that will seriously bite you back in the ass in the future.

  • http://askakorean.blogspot.com thekorean

    But the interests of the truth alone are enough to justify cataloging hypocrisies wherever they exist.

    That is untrue. But it’s a peripheral point to the gravamen of my point, so I will assume it is true for the sake of argument. Having said that…

    You might not realize or understand it, but you’re naive and wrong if you think that you’ll be able to reap dividends by appeasing people, not pointing out their hypocrisies, and constantly stroking their self-important moral hard-ons. Consistently ceding the moral high ground to hypocrites is a recipe for disaster that will seriously bite you back in the ass in the future.

    I will ask you again: what the hell does this have to do with Dresden? How the hell does recognition of Korean collaborators’ war crime lead to appeasing or ceding the moral high ground to Dresden-deniers?

  • Minjokjuuija

    Hypocrisy, appeasement, claiming morality, etc., are all just tools, strategies, methods of memetic warfare and competition. Nothing more. Operationally, recognizing Korean collaborators’ war crimes while not pointing out others’ more serious war crimes is de facto ceding morality. The only criteria that matters in determining this are the real world effects, not endless theological disputation. And the real world effects are evinced above in the comments, where people are completely morally indignant at the POW abusers while for the most part maintaining the moral position of those who burned tens of thousands of innocent civilians to death.

  • Gyeonggi Doh

    So to follow your logic, the rape of Nanjing wasn’t that bad because the incineration of Hiroshima was much worse?

  • MrChips

    Sonagi’s got the beat @106…

  • seouldout

    Thank God people like Curtis LeMay, Bomber Harris, Winnie Churchill and Harry Truman had the sac to go out and win wars back then.

    Hooah!

    Its also slightly different circumstances from maltreating unarmed prisoners who you’ve already got safely penned up.

    Amen.

    I take the view that the Japanese and Germans (like all people) had governments they wanted and deserved. These “innocent civilians” gleefully supported war mongering fascists. These “innocent civilians” themselves were war mongering fascists. When the tide turned, and they were on the recieving end of the butt kicking…so be it.

    These notions that war is waged with a nation’s gov’t but not with the nation’s people are wooly headed. You want to win a war? Make them suffer them until they’ve had enough. Their will must be broken.

    The Japanese got off easily because they were allowed a conditional surrender. Hirohito had to be removed. Tried. And executed. I believe the will for war remained strong with sufficient number of Japanese to warrant continued bombing by the the US. Little Boy and Fat Man compelled Hirohito’s surrender, saving millions of lives. But he was responsible for millions more deaths. Hirohito should have followed his cultural norms and commited seppuku. That he surrendered and avoided suicide may have diminished the esteem felt for him and the throne by the Japanese, thus keeping Japan mostly pacifist since ’45.

    The yearly a-bomb remembrances in Japan are very misguided. They ought to be grateful that the bombs were developed, used, and lethal. “Thank you America for ending our madness!” Consider the bombs therapeutic. Like electroshock.

    Turkey is in Europe, which makes Turks Westerners.

    Isn’t only a smidgen, that west of the Bosphorus, in Europe?

  • gangpehmoderniste

    @ 97: Could you please point out the post where i condone Japanese atrocities ? So at least i can defend myself from such a vile allegation

    PS

    Turkey isn’t Europe as Europe as a cultural entity doesn’t exist, it isn’t a nation (and it will never be) there’s not a language called European, theresn’t a European army etc. do you guys want to merge with Japan, China and Indonesia ?

  • lollabrats

    @ Minjokjuuija

    The man you call a war criminal, Truman, saved Berlin and West Germany from Stalin and South Korea from Il Sung and Mao. These Korean war criminals you defend beat helpless men, who went to war to liberate Asia from Japan. I can only infer that your great regret is that WWII did not go on longer than it did and that Germany and South Korea did not become Communist.

  • Arghaeri

    “PS. Turkey is in Europe, which makes Turks Westerners.”

    Since only a tiny part is in Europe, by your reasoning that would make most turks eaterners as they are in Asia.

  • Arghaeri

    “please back up your claim that sports violence in korea is the same or almost the same as in europe.”

    to coin a pun, moving goalposts, Pawi. You asked if this kind of violence happens in Korea, not if it happens as much as in Europe. Which I doubt anyone would try and argue.

  • yuna

    #92
    바보 자식아, 그렇게 맹목적으로 짖어대는게 정말 국가와 민족을 위하는 거라고 생각하는거냐? 생각을 하고 살으란 말이다.
    #93
    최 변호사님, 돌아오셨군요. 반갑습니다.

    ㅋㅋㅋ
    reads like a comedy sketch. 너무 웃교.

  • keith

    @117 that is 100% correct, I walked across a bridge over the Bosphourus. I don’t understand what the anology between football hooligans and war criminals? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

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