Without looking – do you remember who he is? Most Koreans probably do.
It seems like only yesterday that Korea’s National Treasure No. 1 was destroyed through an act of anger, revenge and stupidity but it has actually been two years. The perpetrator of this unthinkable act was Chae Jong-gi who was given a 10-year prison term for the “indescribable mental pain” of the Korean people and the “nation’s fallen prestige.”
Chae Jong-gi was interviewed (Korean) a couple of weeks ago at his cozy prison in Masan. In the interview he does acknowledge that his acts of two years ago were “stupid” and apparently the other prisoners don’t like him. Wonder why?
{ 160 comments… read them below or add one }
Stupid, indeed. Really sad to go to downtown Seoul and see all that construction going on…
On another note, interesting to compare numbers: 10 years sentence for burning the gate; Korea Beat brings other news showing a guy getting 30 months for raping a 12 year old girl.
It never fails to amuse me…
Mr. Chae! The guy who lost his house in Ilsan! You know who really burned down that gate? Hyundai!
Hard lives a plenty these days…
*
Child rape apparently doesn’t cause the same “indescribable mental pain” as burning wood, nor does there seem to be any national prestige associated with a reputation of being soft on kiddie-fuckers.
Perhaps making every little girl’s vagina a UNESCO World Heritage site at birth would solve the problem.
I would never use sentencing disparity to condemn the morality of a nation (i.e. “being soft on kiddie-fuckers” a racist cheap shot).
You’ll see similar sentencing disparities in Americans courts, where for whatever reason (mandatory minimums, three strikes), some non-violent potsmoker gets put away for 20 years while a rapist might get out in five.
There’s a lot that goes into sentencing. To draw any conclusions about a nation’s values from it is. just. stupid.
Worse, Federal sentencing guidelines treat possession of crack as being 100 times worse by quantity than possession of powder cocaine. Crack’s mainly a ghetto drug, coke a favored libation of lawyers and other members of the white-collar professional class. One might think that America’s politicians writing sentencing guidelines are unduly tough on poor black fellas and poor folks in general, while hypocritically giving themselves and their children a little more leeway.
Of course, one might come to this conclusion because it’s true. The patent unfairness and disparate impact of America’s drug laws is exhibit #1 in the libertarian argument against drug prohibition.
Oh yes, you’re the twat the runs around screaming “racist!” at those you disagree with, and then when asked to provide specific examples of racism you tuck your tail between your legs and run away screaming “racist!”.
You’re full of shit. Non-violent potsmokers don’t get put away for 20 years unless they happen to be holding dozens of kilos of pot that they’re distributing. Possession of small personal quantities of weed rarely reaches felony status and thus wouldn’t trigger a third strike. And if you’re stupid enough to get convicted of two felonies, and then stupid enough to think that you can possess enough bricks of weed to trigger a third felony and mandatory third-strike sentence…you’re a fucking idiot that deserves it.
Of course. To draw any conclusions about say, Singapore’s values from their drug sentencing guidelines as compared to the values of perhaps, The Netherlands, is just stupid. No conclusion at all could be drawn from that.
Nor could any conclusion about the values of North Korea be drawn from their death sentences for defaming the Dear Leader or distributing video tapes of South Korean dramas. And of course it would be just stupid to draw any conclusion about the values of the Germans or Austrians by looking at their laws regarding freedom of speech…specifically Holocaust denial. No no, no conclusions at all. Stupid.
You’re better off going back to just yelling racist and running away than you are peddling this kind of insipid bullshit.
Where does meth, the drug of choice for PWTs, fit into the sentencing hierarchy?
Agreed. And the most evil, horrible man on the face of the earth is actually trying to eliminate that disparity. At least while he’s not busy destroying America and sending his secret army of brownshirts to euthanize your grandma and kill Sarah Palin’s kids.
@tinyflowers
Of course various conclusions can be drawn. But the most important conclusion is that only Korea should have any say in what Korean laws should or shouldn’t be.
http://norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4540
blueballs, this is what is known as a “fact”.
This is just stupid. That wasn’t my point AT ALL. I’m not comparing laws between different countries. I’m saying that sentencing disparities WITHIN a country (like the example you quoted in your post, remember?) cannot be a rational justification for condemning the values of a nation (i.e. “being soft on kiddie-fuckers”).
In relative terms, you’re looking at something like crack 100, meth 75, cain 60.
C’mon, TF, you know the best defense against racists is a shitload of Wiki links. Get’em, boy!
And I bet you’re just dumb enough to think that a third offense in Louisiana is somehow likely to get you anywhere near the 20 year maximum.
If you’ve seen the working end of a sentencing grid, and then compared it to what kind of sentences are actually handed out, you would never cite that as evidence. In fact I would be willing to bet my life that the actual sentences in Louisiana for a third-time offender of possession ALWAYS skew far far closer to the zero end of that guideline than the 20. Citing maximums as being indicative of norms is fucking stupid. I could just as easily state that the minimum is the norm, and that would mean a ZERO sentence for a third felony possession. Of course then I’d be as stupid as you. The simple fact is that sentencing grids always tend toward the lower end and that it is very rare to reach the maximum. Ever.
Of course they can! If a country skews their sentencing to be soft on kiddie-fuckers and harsh on jaywalking, that would be a very clear and rational justification for condemning the values of that nation. Why would anyone not retarded claim otherwise?
You can condemn the values of any nation for whatever reason. And you can claim that there is “a very clear and rational justification” for doing so. You can claim it all day, every day.
Hey Blueballs, didn’t you accuse TheKorean of being racist too? Bah, who cares. Most people are racist to some degree. Just like alot of men have bad thoughts about underage girls at some point — or in the case of white catholic priests, underage boys. It’s the behavior that counts.
Please read more carefully. Here is what I said “You’ll see similar sentencing disparities in Americans courts, where for whatever reason (mandatory minimums, three strikes), some non-violent potsmoker gets put away for 20 years”
I did not cite it as the norm. Are you actually denying that non-violent drug offenders have been sentenced to longer terms than rapists?
The simple fact is that sentencing grids always tend toward the lower end and that it is very rare to reach the maximum. Ever.
Source?
Um. because that would be short-sighted and silly?
That’s like pointing to the sentencing disparity in America and saying America values rapists more than habitual pot smokers. There’s too much that goes into sentencing to make such banal observations.
Oh btw, you’re the only one that I’ve ever accused of being racist. It’s not hard to see why.
I’m having a hard time discerning whether blueballs is putting the responsibility of “soft on kiddie-fuckers” on the Korean justice system, the society in general, or the public for being lethargic about the fucked-up nature of “soft on kiddie-fuckers”. I’m thinking that blueballs meant first and third (and I would wholeheartedly agree), while tinyflowers took it as a more general slap-on characterization of Korean society in general (i.e. the second).
And to clarify my position, I don’t think that Korean society itself is “soft on kiddie-fuckers” in any way, at least in any direct manner. Societal norm clearly sees such practice as abhorrent and repugnant… (ex: reactions to Na-Young incident) but no tangible attempt at reform seems to be on the horizon. If not guilty of moral perverseness/bankruptcy, the Korean society is certainly guilty of moral laziness.
Here’s one example of third-offense marijuana possession sentencing in Louisiana:
“During the incident, East Baton Rouge sheriff’s deputies found a bag of marijuana, a cigar loaded with weed and another unspecified drug and a gun in a car driven by Boosie. At the time, he was charged with third-offense possession of marijuana, punishable by up to 20 years in prison, as well as possession of a firearm with a controlled dangerous substance, a crime that carries a mandatory minimum five-year prison term.”
What did he get for all this? Two years of a 10-year suspended sentence.
Yeah if you’re a rapper and you can afford a good lawyer you can buy yourself some good old fashioned American justice. If he was just some kid stuck with a public defender, he would have served those 10 years and then some.
All this only proves my point. There’s great disparity in sentencing even for the same crime. Like I said, there’s a lot that goes into sentencing, including the key factor of how much your lawyer charges.
I’ll get to the drug sentencing later and Iceberg’s example is a good one (note that the marijuana was only part of the sentence that would’ve been less than a year with good behavior), but if there’s any question about the soft on kiddie fuckers charge:
That means that in 2007, of all convicted child molesters (which one would presume includes repeat offenders), 72.6% of them didn’t spend a single day in jail.
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2009100206998
The public and legislative reaction to the Na Young case is an encouraging step in the right direction, but these statistics paint a pretty grim picture of tolerance and I would say fully back up my assertion.
If anyone has more current or opposing data, let’s see it.
I agree with blueballs on the Korean justice system being unduly lenient toward child molesters. I’ve come to the conclusion that Korean society in the main really doesn’t consider children as people, at least in the same sense those of us from middle class America do, but rather as vessels for the gratification of adults. Viewed from that perspective, it’s easy to understand how kiddie diddlers would get a fairly soft deal from the court.
But criminal sentences in Korea are generally quite lenient. Except if you’re foreign capital. Then look out.
You’re a piece of work. He posts an example of a third possession conviction (along with a separate gun charge so we can’t be sure how much the marijuana part of the charge the sentence was even for) in Louisiana in which the sentence was 2 years and reducable to less than one, and you previously held that out as an example in which one could get 20 years, and you think it proves your point. Fucking hilarious. I suppose an example of a third possession sentence of 6 months would only further prove your point….genius!
So let’s see it wiki king. Until you find some examples of kids with public defenders getting 10 years + (or how about that 20 years you spoke of?), looks like you’re just shoveling shit without any FACTS to back it up.
Better to get to workand find some links, eh little chum?
Whoa whoa. While I agree with this point…
This…
…is just a tad too far, isn’t it?
@8
In the federal guidelines meth is between freebase cocaine and cocaine salt Sonagi. Everything is defined based upon a ratio relative to marijuana, so 1 gram of cocaine salt is 200 grams of marijuana, 1 gram of meth is 2,000 grams of marijuana, and 1 gram of cocaine freebase is 20,000 grams of marijuana. To make things more fair for the freebase/salt disparity with regard to cocaine the push is to move the salt up and the freebase down. I’d be interested to see what happens if freebase methamphetamine ever becomes popular, which would certainly do a would of good for idiots smoking the salt.
Well here’s a guy who sodomized five children and got five years:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/27/Pasco/Sentence_for_child_ab.shtml
Here are the federal sentencing guidelines for Arson:
http://www.ehow.com/about_5436933_arson-sentencing-guidelines.html
I guess according to blueballs, Child rape apparently doesn’t cause the same “indescribable mental pain” as burning wood, nor does there seem to be any national prestige associated with a reputation of being soft on kiddie-fuckers.
Dude did you even read the article? The ONLY reason there’s even an article about him is because he’s a rapper and can obviously afford a good lawyer. You can get away with all kinds of stuff if you have a good lawyer. If it was some nobody who got put away for 20 years, there wouldn’t an article about him. duh.
thekorean — I only have my own observations to back me up, but from my perspective many (most?) Korean parents are too invested in pushing their children to do things that aggrandize the parents. Nobody gives a damn what the children themselves may want.
Trying to compare an outlier sentence in a state court, to federal arson guidelines, which cover the use of explosives.
You don’t even comprehend the issues you’re trying to argue. Stop embarrassing yourself.
That’s what we in the business call a bald-faced lie.
Actually it is, because when I asked you to point to a single thing I had ever said that was racist, you couldn’t give me one. You threw the charge out there and then ran away like the cowardly bitch you are when I challenged you to back it up.
If you have any data to show the average sentences for Louisiana pot convictions, let’s see it. Otherwise, you’re still full of shit with no FACTS to back it up. I don’t give a shit about your opinion about what you think happens in Louisiana…show me some proof or tuck and run. Until I see something more than you flapping your gums, your claims are easily written off.
For the record, I do think that mizar is a racist, but notice I did not call him one there. With you though, I actually called you a racist to your face. So I stand by my statement that you’re the only one here that I’ve called a racist. And I stand by my statement that you are a racist.
1. I agree with “many”, but not “most”.
2. While this clarification is eminently reasonable (and I fully expected your position to be reasonable,) what you said earlier can be very easily misinterpreted — especially “vessels for gratification” part. That’s really all I wanted to say.
Btw, Am I the only one here who actually thinks that arson is a more serious crime than child molestation? I think it’s way more serious, considering the consequences, especially in a densely populated country.
Arson sentences are equally harsh in America, whereas a child molester gets one year for every cherry he pops (unless you’re a priest, then you just get transferred to another church).
Yes, thank you Marco Polo for your impressive discovery. Different societies have views on social relations different from those in the West. Who could’ve known? And apparently these different views offend your sensibilities enough that you can characterize them so cheaply and sordidly. That’s fine, whatever. Just stick to wallowing in your smug self-satisfaction and moral superiority.
So here’s your contribution to this thread:
Claimed that non-violent potsmokers can serve 20 years based on maximum sentencing guidelines. You were shown an example in which that guideline applied, and yet it amounted to a 2-year sentence which is likely even lower based on multiple charges in the sentence. You’re challenged to show a single example supporting your assertion. You can’t.
You claimed I’m a racist. You’re asked to show a single example supporting your assertion. You can’t.
Dude, you’re a fucking joke. Case closed.
TK, you must have forgotten that one time when Brendon Carr stated unequivocally that Korea is a fucked up society. But then he also said he loves living in Korea…so I guess my question is, why do you love living in a fucked up country Brendon? It’s all so confusing to me.
@ tinyflowers
I don’t know if he’s a racist or not. But he seems like he might be something many times worse. Someone trying to impose his worldview on other nations, societies, groups, etc.
I’ll take an honest racist who might despise us but wants nothing to do with us and is willing to leave us alone, over an aggressive universalizer any day.
I realize why you have to latch on to this point, but it seems a bit desparate and is an obvious red herring since there normally aren’t articles published for routine sentencing.
If there is an article written, it’ll be because of some unusual circumstance or because the defendent is a famous person (like our friend Boosie above, who, even you’ll admit, got off easy).
This is the worst example I could find:
http://reason.com/blog/2006/12/15/puzzle-for-the-governor-is-lif
Sentenced to life for smoking pot while under probation.
Another life sentence for pot and weapons:
http://herbwhite.newsvine.com/_news/2009/02/23/2468793-the-man-with-a-life-sentence-for-marijuana-has-one-more-shot-at-appeal
I’m sure you could find more if you really wanted to dig, but like I said, stories normally aren’t written for nobodies. What I do know is that America has the highest incarceration in the world and that our prisons are full of non violent drug offenders, I know a few myself.
Jesus H Christ…you conflate commenting on a blog with imposing my worldview on “nations, societies, and groups?” Are you some kind of alarmist retard or are you actually ascribing some fantastic and dangerous powers to me and my keyboard? Are you under the impression that the nation of Korea is in grave danger from me, my avatar, and the words that appear under them?
You just defined blog commenting as “agressive universalizing.” No really, you did. I don’t even know how to respond to such dumbfuckery. I’ve encountered some dipshits in my time, but a dipshit calling me Superman and warning the others about my supreme powers is certainly new.
There is nothing to be confused about. That means Mr. Carr has successfully assimilated to Korean society.
Your original assertion: “some non-violent potsmoker gets put away for 20 years”
Your first example: Guy convicted of armed robbery, who violated his probation by smoking pot and got his original sentence for armed robbery changed to life. An injustice for sure, but nowhere near your original assertion.
Your 2nd example: A drug dealer also convicted on weapons charges. Again, nowhere near your original assertion.
I’m sure you can dig up all kinds of pot-related cases with long sentences, but that has nothing to do with your original assertion.
Now if you want to expand your assertion to include drug dealers and violent criminals, then of course you’ll find longer sentences. But you clearly said non-violent potsmokers, which implies simple possession, and not dealing or ancillary violent crimes that occur while one is smoking pot.
FYI, the mean incarceration period for state felony drug possession convictions of all types (that means heroin, coke, meth, X, weed, prescription…everything) across all states in 2006 was 23 months.
Sexual assault – 106 months.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fssc06st.pdf
What’s so hard to understand? It’s fucked up, all right, but fucked up in favor of people like me. I’m an exceptionally good-looking and intelligent associate member of the Lucky Penis Club™, age 40, who can speak Korean and works in a professional field that enables me to earn almost enough money. My white skin gives me a free pass on all the social-obligation bullshit, too. My home is 100% paid-for and I’ve got a five-minute commute. So my own life in Korea is objectively pretty good.
It’s the fuckery against Korea’s lumpenproletariat what bothers me. I don’t think the public at large gets a great deal here. Since as a foreigner, I have zero capability to change the culture (why haven’t they elected me King already?), all I can do is enjoy what’s enjoyable and vent about the rest on this here blog.
ihbb, don’t mind minjokjuiijackass. he can’t be reasonable with you probably because it’s hard for him to process that you are banging, as he puts it, “one of his women.” don’t forget who he is.
That’s a selective quote. Here is what I actually said:
“You’ll see similar sentencing disparities in Americans courts, where for whatever reason (mandatory minimums, three strikes), some non-violent potsmoker gets put away for 20 years while a rapist might get out in five.’
Translation: he smoked pot and got put away for life.
So? It’s still a non violent drug crime. Weapons charges are always tack-on charges anyway. He got busted for dope, and it sounds like he was entrapped too. And regarding my “original assertion”, you can easily use this case to illustrate the same sentencing disparity, even if it isn’t strictly about a pot user:
Guy sodomizes five kids = five years in prison
Guy sells pot three times = life in prison
I don’t draw any conclusions from this other than that one of those guys had a good lawyer and one didn’t. I won’t make lazy racist generalizations about Americans being “soft on kiddie fuckers” or anything like that.
Like I said, there wouldn’t really be any articles written about routine pot sentencings, you’d have to search through (paper) public records for that kind of info. Those two articles are extremes that illustrate the draconian attitude some states (and apparently some judges) have towards marijuana.
I didn’t define “blog commenting” as anything. I described you. I said that you were an aggressive universalizer, and that you try to impose your worldview on other groups. This is pretty clear. There’s nothing to debate about this, and none of your sarcasm and insults is going to change this fact. You don’t have to completely subjugate a group in order to impose or spread your memes. How successful you actually are in doing so, and what you do offline are different matters.
Brendon,
I understand your point, but “Lucky Penis Club™” sounds like a monthly subscription.
There’s nothing hard to process at all. People can enter and leave new and different groups. It happens all the time.
I’m a nationalist. It’s pretty straightforward.
I would like to see some of these expat commentors in this blog put into a Korean cell, and have them bash Korea like they do there. I don’t think prisoners would like them either, I wonder why?
I don’t actually care about the issue being debated here (well, not much, anyway), but I’m glad I read through. There are some FANTASTIC comments on this thread.
this thread was simple boring. the only thing i have to say is this:
most countries in this world would be happy to be as ‘fucked up’ as sk.
You clearly don’t understand what the word “impose” actually means. This is pretty clear. There’s nothing to debate about this.
It’s going to be even harder when he finds out she wasn’t only one.
And yet you still haven’t cited a single example of some non-violent potsmoker getting put away for 20 years for smoking pot. You’ve cited a drug dealer and an armed robber, for which I’d have never challenged your assertion in the first place had you used those as a reference point.
Had his only crime been smoking pot, he wouldn’t be in for life. But then your comparison wouldn’t have quite the same effect if you had said “some gun-toting drug dealer gets put away for 20 years….”, which is exactly why you didn’t make that claim and why your example is bunk. You made a stretch based on misreading sentencing maximums and without understanding the reality, and you got burned. Deal with it.
You can easily find outliers and extremes to make whatever point you want about sentencing disparities. But that means nothing unless they point to larger trends or have some basis in a more significant reality.
I posted statistics that show without a doubt that the child-rape sentence initially referenced is in fact not an outlier but part of the norm, and that kiddie-fuckers in Korea are routinely not even sent to jail, but 70%+ are simply fined or given suspended sentences. That was not an exception or an outlier.
You on the other hand, can not only not prove your extreme, but even if you could, you can’t even show that it points to any larger trend of any significance, which makes it useless.
Of course you won’t because there’s no data to back that up in the case of the American justice system. In my case, I produced the data and did back it up, which makes your claim of “lazy racist generalization” look pretty fucking stupid, and yet another example of you crying racism with absolutely nothing to back your claim. Are you saying the Korean Health, Welfare, and Family Affairs Ministry is making lazy, racist generalizations abotu their own countrymen when they released those statistics?
All you have to do is look for sentencing statistics, which are readily available, and which I’ve already posted a link to one example of a compilation. The simple fact is, if your assertion were true, and non-violent potsmokers were routinely (or even rarely) subjected to 20 year sentences for simple possession, it would be huge news. The fact that you believe that fantasy just shows that you’ve never been near a courtroom, nor do you have any clue as to how lenient most states are in handing out sentences for drug possession.
Admit it, you found a link showing a 20-year maximum in Louisiana, and you just assumed that was a reality you could use as an example. You were not only wrong, but horrendously wrong, and now you’re trying to move the goalposts and stretching to find examples that don’t even come close to fitting your original parameters.
No. I clearly do. All your endless sophistry, insults, and sarcasm is aimed at supporting your political (in the most fundamental, natural sense) assertions, which have nothing to do with material reality and are simply just impositions of a particular worldview.
Like I said, there’s nothing hard to process at all. People can enter and leave new and different groups. It happens all the time.
Were I to install a loudspeaker in your kitchen and make loud, worthless, annoying announcements at all hours of the day into your apartment while not allowing you to control the volume or power….THAT would be an imposition.
You or anyone else freely deciding to read what I write here….that’s a choice.
Learn the difference.
No. Fundamentally, you would be doing the same thing. You would be acting as a vector of virulent memes.
Both examples fit the original parameters. Read it again, particularly the part in bold:
“You’ll see similar sentencing disparities in Americans courts, where for whatever reason (mandatory minimums, three strikes), some non-violent potsmoker gets put away for 20 years while a rapist might get out in five”
There was NO violence involved in either crime. One happened to be under probation, the other one happened to own an illegal firearm.
Perhaps if you had read my original assertion more carefully you wouldn’t have responded with this:
Because nowhere did I say that a single pot charge brings a 20 year sentence. In fact, I made clear that there are extenuating circumstances. Read more carefully before you go off the handle next time.
I’ll leave you with a couple of WIKIPEDIA graphs to ponder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ncsucr2.gif
Holy shit, I just realized you’re right! I’m a fucking unstoppable badass vector of virulent memes, imposing my worldview on nations at will, and planting my seed of superhyper sophistry in the minds of defenseless receptacles throughout the universe…and I didn’t even know it!
Fuck me, I’m the king of the world and it took a nationalist douche to make me realize it. I need to get a crown or a t-shirt or something so my authority is recognized instantly, as I’m a little worried that the word of the Minge won’t exactly pass muster with most of the world outside the Hole.
Christ man, what the fuck good is all this power if my goddamn 2-year old won’t even listen to me? Maybe if I write a post on the Marmot’s Hole telling him not to shit his pants anymore, and then make him read it…well he can’t read so I’ll have to read it to him….then the virulent meme will overpower his bowels as I impose my worldview of “No dumpy diapers” on him and render him pottytrained.
I think you may be on to something here Mingey old chap.
Yes, you do act as a vector of virulent memes. And whether you’re conscious of it or not has nothing to do with it. I never described you as “unstoppable” and all-powerful, but you are clearly formidable as far as individual vectors go. You’re skilled in verbal combat and disputation, and you’re able to aggressively steamroll opponents with a combination of sophistry, insults, and sarcasm.
CMM #44, IHBB is “banging . . . ‘one of his [Korean] women’”?
A bald-faced lie! IHBB can’t be doing anything of the sort! Rather the opposite!
Just look at his gravatar.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Three strikes laws mandate that one of the three strikes be a violent felony before the third strike is invoked and the extra sentencing occurs. There are no potsmokers who are victims of the three strikes law that did not have at least one violent felony on their record.
There are also no mandatory minimums of 20 years for pot possession alone. There has to be trafficking or weapons charge or commission of another felony involved before anything near that kind of mandatory minimum would kick in, and in order to reach a 20-year minimum, those extra charges would have to be murder-level or high-level/high-quantity dealer to get there. So your characterization of a non-violent potsmoker is blatantly dishonest. You need to change that to non-violent big-time pot dealer or non-violent but illegal firearm packing drug dealer to have any kind of relevancy.
If you’d like to go on listing more reasons and aggravating circumstances that you can add to your original assertion that will pull your examples into the circle you’re now creating, go right on ahead. But the two you cited as examples don’t fit, so keep searching.
Yes, one happened to be on probation for armed robbery, which is most certainly violent, and without that original VIOLENT felony, the potsmoking doesn’t get him more than a couple months. Citing a potsmoking probation violation as the cause of the life sentence is dishonest and stupid, and you know it. It was the violent felony underpinning the life sentence, without which it would not exist.
And the other happened to be a drug dealer that owned an illegal firearm, which makes him a non-violent drug dealing, pot-smoking moron with illegal firearms. Kinda missed that description in your original assertion, didn’t you?
This is pretty hilarious, because the more extenuating circumstances you add, the further you get away from the simple “non-violent potsmoker” character, and get closer to the drug-dealing, three-time felon, armed robber character, the more your original comparison makes no sense at all and the disparity disappears.
You can’t have it both ways. Add the drug-dealing, armed robbery, and weapons charges, and your examples fit but who’s going to think that’s such a significant disparity? Keep the non-violent potsmoker as your baseline and your examples fly out the window but the disparity is there.
Your assertion only makes sense if it’s a minor crime (possession only) and a major sentence (20 years) = major disparity. Once you tack on trafficking and/or armed robbery, it turns into a major crime deserving of a major sentence = no disparity.
Chinese finger trap, try to get out!
Front: “I am clearly formidable as far as individual vectors go.”
Back: “I am skilled in verbal combat and disputation, and am able to aggressively steamroll opponents with a combination of sophistry, insults, and sarcasm.”
That is going to be the sweetest fucking t-shirt ever. I’ll even print one up for you since you wrote most of the text.
I’m wearing that motherfucker everywhere. And that includes my high school reunion next summer.
Oh the pondering I’ll do of your naked attempt at misdirection. But then we weren’t discussing the number of incarcerated Americans or four measures of serious violent crime then, were we?
I feel I must give you a couple of things to ponder, that are as relevant to our discussion as the ones you posted:
http://www.gwjokes.com/pictures/jerry-springer.jpg
http://www.fitnesspioneers.com/images/richard-simmons.jpg
I love iheartblueballs, and I’m not embarrasssed to admit it.
My typing errors, OTOH, provide me with plenty of embarrassing moments.
The verbiage witnessed here, esp from the prime usual suspects, is a classic example of Expat Psychology 101.
Realize that you are dealing with disenfranchised losers harboring enormous chips on their shoulders for one reason or another. Whitey, especially, cannot handle being a minority. It breeds feelings of insecurity.
I cannot fathom why one must be familiar with intricate legal details pertaining to child rape or drug abuse. Such matters are foreign to my everyday reality and community. Pretending to be outraged, I am not convinced that these fools are genuinely concerned about children or rape or whatever. The fact that a child molester got only 30 months while an arsonist got 10 years, which is a non-sequitor to the issue at hand to begin with, is only useful and meaningful it is more “ammo” to those who have an incessant need to put down an Other, to feel superior to their host nation, in order to compensate for their own basic insecurity and to feel good about themselves.
To all of IHBB’s many laurels, I’d like to add an Olympic gold medal for shooting fish in a barrel.
‘It’s the fuckery against Korea’s lumpenproletariat what bothers me. I don’t think the public at large gets a great deal here.’ (allegedly) rich cocky lawyer
same could be said about reg folks here. it didn’t used to be this way but now it is. of course, he wouldn’t know that since he doesn’t live here.
#32
With you though, I actually called you a racist to your face. So I stand by my statement that you’re the only one here that I’ve called a racist. And I stand by my statement that you are a racist.
Calling Blueballs a racist is an offense to racists.
Wow.. are kiddy diddlers really getting sympathy over arsonists here? There has been a lot of ridiculous judicial decisions here in the last few years… the ‘suspended sentences’ are a great example of that.
IHBB is sometimes a little over the top, but very regularly spot on with his comments… and once again, well demonstrated with this thread, one can listen to reason, but there’s no rewarding stupidity, which in his case, he doesn’t.
#69
If someone blew up the Statue of Liberty tomorrow, that individual would be getting a much more severe jail sentence than a child molester. In the US, a convicted child molester can serve a minimal prison sentence and be back in society to teach karate school around a bunch 0f kiddies. Capiche, moron?
BlueBall’s windbaggery about felonies, drug and weapons possession, and God knows what else to be mind-numbingly tedious. Unlike you’ve been a guest in the penitentiary yourself, why in God’s name would anyone need to know all that shit?
#43
I’m an exceptionally good-looking and intelligent associate member of the Lucky Penis Club™, age 40, who can speak Korean and works in a professional field that enables me to earn almost enough money. My white skin gives me a free pass on all the social-obligation bullshit, too. My home is 100% paid-for and I’ve got a five-minute commute. So my own life in Korea is objectively pretty good.
As I have said before, White boys excel in sucking on their own cocks.
What kind of medication are you taking for your mid-life crisis there, Brendon? Does your wife know about this so-called Lucky Penis Club™?
‘If someone blew up the Statue of Liberty tomorrow, that individual would be getting a much more severe jail sentence than a child molester’
that’s all that needed to be said about all this. this thread should have been short.
Unlike you’re a paedophile yourself, why in God’s name would anyone feel the need to defend Korea’s failed child protection laws?
#73
I’m not defending anything, schmuck.
I am pointing out the fact that you all are full of shit, that is all.
‘I am pointing out the fact that you all are full of shit, that is all. ‘
once again, spot on.
jw @ 16
speak for yourself, i never had any bad thought about underage girls (except strangling them when they inflict their music on me like my sister does) i’m more the milf type
can we just make this all simple? That monster who raped and literally ruined the body of that poor little girl should have gotten at least 50 years…that old fker who burned down the national landmark gate should have gotten something similar. 5 years and 10 years for each was waaaay too lenient. One man ruined a girl’s whole life. The other ruined a national landmark that will never be truly restored.
Well i’m no lawyer or anything like that so i can’t say but my own personal experience with the American justice system (tax evasion and various securities frauds) seemed a bit mondo bizzarro, thanks God they didn’t take away my passport (i was always convinced they could never conceive the idea of somebody running away from beautiful Us of A) but anyway the impression i got was that of complete randomness
But the ruined national landmark was a product of several restorations.
I’m convinced guys like Netizen Kim, tinyflowers, minjoke and pawi when he slides back to the old pawi (like on this thread) think they are sticking it to “the man” by debasing or distorting the meanings of words, refusing to make logical arguments or follow logical trains of thought, acting as is if rule of law has no meaning — essentially committing a form of arson against the underpinnings of Western/modern civilization.
But these emotionally satisfying (to you) but intellectually bankrupt rhetorical gambits always fail, which is why IHBB and others when inclined easily make mincemeat of you every fucking time. It’s fun to watch at first, but it gets painful to observe before long.
If it’s fair to judge a nation based on something like disparity of sentences, then it’s even more fair to judge a nation based on more concrete things like the AMOUNT of crime.
Given that bluballs is so eager to slander a nation as being “soft on kiddie fuckers”, what does he say about the fact that there are a lot more kiddie fuckers in America than anywhere else in the world? The problem is so bad here that paroled child molesters form their own little communities, because no one wants them around. Hell, we all know which countries are responsible for EXPORTING the majority of kiddie fuckers around the world, especially to the third world where they can fuck little kids with impunity.
bluballs: “that would be a very clear and rational justification for condemning the values of that nation”
i don’t think i’m sticking it to anybody. ain’t none of you here ‘the man’, slim.
I don’t think you’d find that assertion even on a Wiki page as laws, enforcement, and data gathering vary so much among nations. Moreover, statistics on sexual violence comprise reported crimes and convictions, which reflect both the frequency of the crime itself and the reliability of the criminal justice system, and survey responses, which depend on the honesty and willingness of the participants.
#81
The Expat is really a simple and predictable creature, although highly disingenuous.
The root of all this brouhaha over kiddie molesters lies in the fact that there are many foreigners who are child molesters coming to Korea, to do, of all things, teach Engrish in the schools. The fact that Korea has less social awareness about issues like paedophilia encourages these creeps to come. The reason why the US may have tougher laws regarding such crimes is a consequence of the fact that for whatever reason, it is a big, serious, ongoing problem in America. Paedophiles often seek refuge in other countries to escape from the long reach of US law.
There has been some high profile cases of foreigner paedophiles being exposed in the Korean press. As usual, whenever that happens, the waeguks go into one of their silly fits of outrage. Much of the rhetoric you see expended in this thread is merely waeguk-nom schaudefreude. Blueball’s prodigious capacity at bombast-making here at MH establishes him as sort of a Whitey version of Al Sharpton, after a fashion. Blueballs is to Expats what Sharpton is to perpetually-oppressed and victimized Blacks. Like Sharpton, Blueballs has a sizable group of lemmings as an amen-corner.
@ Sonagi # 82
Yeah ok sure but American cities are the last place in the Northern hemisphere where i would leave my child unwatched, and i’m sure i’m not the only one who thinks that. Well Moscow or Bucharest would come a close second
The rule of law isn’t something sacred to me. I don’t consider it to be universally good. It’s a social institution, and it has its positives and negatives. It’s not a necessity or a primary consideration for me, and I’d be perfectly happy without it under different circumstances.
I’m not sticking it to “the man” or to “Western civilization.” What I say applies to Korea. I’m not advocating anything for the West or anywhere else for that matter.
NK: #83
(emphasis mine.)
I think you mean “Schadenfreude”?
Sonagi: #82:
It’s a dangerous assumption to think that if something isn’t specifically stated on a Wiki, it just isn’t so. (Have we forgotten about books?)
Also, statistics and survey responses can be skewed or even falsified. (Case in point: During the Scott Peterson trial in 2004-05, the judge accepted the defense’s motion for a change in venue based solely on the results of a so-called survey done by San Diego State University criminology students whose results suggested that it would be difficult for the defendant to be treated impartially in his hometown of Modesto. Later, it was found that the criminology students falsified the survey results and never actually interviewed anyone.)
That being said, IMO, language is a far superior barometer of social phenomenon and human behavior, because invariably, if the culture hasn’t coined a concise term for said behavior, more than likely it’s b/c the behavior hasn’t risen to the level of a social phenomenon.
On the other hand, my mother, who was born in 1940 in Korea, said that up until recently, not only were vocabulary like “incest,” “pedophilia,” “child molester,” “pederasts,” “child rape,” not part of the Korean vernacular, direct translations of such words in Korean required lengthy descriptive sentences or paragraphs describing said behavior — although that may have changed within the past decade or so.
And I guess the converse is true as well — the reason why English and other indo-european languages are so concise in describing deviant antisocial behaviors like “pedophilia” is b/c the West is well accustomed to said behaviors to the point where it has become passe.
Part, the First
IHBB’s lengthy and painful slaughter of the gyopo nationalists who infest The Hole could have been avoided had said gyopos simply admitted that “20 years in prison for smoking pot” is a figurative rather than literal characterization of America’s skewed values. On the other hand, Eric Schlosser, author of ‘Fast Food Nation’, sets forth in ‘Reefer Madness’ a sickening example of a toker who stumbled on to the outer periphery of a major growing operation and was given … twenty years.
Part the Second
It is a fascinating question, whether the U.S. has more pedophile crime, or if it only seems so because such cases are treated so seriously there. I tend to start with the premise that humans are alike and thus there are as many Korean as American pedophiles, but that such crimes in Korea usually remain undetected, unreported, and (largely) unpunished. Yet we know there isn’t nearly as much gun, gang, and drug-related crime in Korea, so maybe pedophilia, too, is a bigger problem in the U.S.
Were there serial killers in the Roman Republic, in Enlightenment-Era England, in 18th century Russia and Tang Dynasty China? Or is serial killing a media/ imitation driven crime and thus a peculiarly modern (and largely American) problem? Fascinating question. Perhaps I can get IHBB and others to discuss a question more worthy of his/ their awesome forensic/ internet skills.
So… shame what happened to that old gate, wasn’t it?
Damn shame, guy’s a jerk
I’m sure there was no gay in Korea until recently either.
“But really, my interest in black women is because I find them hot and has little to do with what other people are doing.”
I guess you haven’t been keeping up with comment threads or you’d recognize my Wiki reference as a jibe at a certain Wikifan.
Fixed it for you. I don’t think the term “domestic violence” was used much prior to the 1970s, but that doesn’t meant that partner abuse has become much more common in the last thirty years. Likewise, I believe the term “racism” appeared in the 1930s with the rise of Nazism, giving a name to a way of thinking that had existed for centuries.
Your mom isn’t the best informant on sexual terms. A 30-something married Korean friend of mine had never heard of the words byeontae or jjokbari until I asked her about them. As another example from my childhood, my sibs and I all laughed til our sides split when my mom pointed to some graffiti in a pavilion that read, “For a good time, call (neighbor boy’s full name and phone number)” and said, “Look what ( ) wrote.” She did not understand the pragmatics of the graffiti, but her young teen and preteen kids did.
***Sorry for the triple post, but my original comment kept getting caught in the filter, so I broke it up.
Why is it that Eskimoes have some 230 different words to describe snow, whereas African tribes like the Zulus have no native word of their own for it? Before globalization and the Internet, language was mostly used to describe local phenomenon and interface with our immediate surroundings and environment. So, if it wasn’t a part of our immediate world, we wouldn’t have to expend mental energy to coin a special term for it.
Now, b/c of globalization and the Internet, we’ve become so-called “experts” on everything from option pricing strategies to conducting counterinsurgency operations. Bottom line: Behaviors must first manifest themselves in a society — or become popularized — before that society can recognize it and subsequently, have an awareness of it.
So, if the behavior or phenomenon hasn’t manifested itself — like shoveling snow in Zimbabwe — obviously it’s b/c there’s an gross unfamiliarity with the concept or lack of need to describe it, which is not the same as denial of it.
“Domestic violence” is just the pc-term for “wife beating,” — the more common usage term of its day before the equal-rights movement made it passe and replaced it with more socially acceptable euphemisms. Was there wife beating before the 70′s? Of course there was, but I daresay perhaps a combination of superficial social mores, a reluctance to discuss family violence, as well as an unfamiliarity with hearing or dealing with such topics, conspired to create the taboo associated with it. Now, 40 years later, domestic violence is so common and has become so passe — in all its forms and variants whether it be child abuse, etc., we’ve practically become inured to it.
I guess the greatest contribution of the Nazis, will be the eternal association of terms like “racism” and “Nationalism” with pure evil, tyranny and genocide. Even before then, other forms of persecution were prevalent where groups of people were killed for their religious beliefs, etc., so I disagree that racism existed for centuries. There were a host of other ways to persecute those history disliked or disagreed with.
Oh, I forgot to mention that she’s a retired shrink, but I do agree that moms in general are invariably behind the curve when it comes to interpreting ghetto-inspired graffiti and street slang.
dogbertt #91:
Actually, there was no gay in the way you used it in modern English until the 1950′s and 60′s when its denotation changed forever from a word that meant happy-go-lucky with a largely positive connotation, to its present day dubiously connoted term. So kudos to Dogbertt, who just like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, are both absolutely right about that.
@8675309
Your whole theory is premised on the urban legend about “Eskimos” and their many words for snow.
Brilliant.
I don’t know how many words 8675309 knows for ‘snow’, but I’m guessing he just came up with a few for Iceberg.
this entire comment thread = whatevas…
i’ll see your meh and raise you two mehs.
i only saw gbnhj’s post and was going to come in order to note about the fallacy … but where is the reference to eskimos and snows academically famous? i forget where and in what context it’s been argued before…
anyway, if you think about it, english is full of various words for snow — flakes, sludge, sleet, blizzard…
Anyway i wouldn’t pass judgment on any country based on the local judiciary. Results would be unflattering for everybody.
@65
@84
The “brouhaha” tends to start after Koreans have molested children and foreigners (particularly English teachers) are blamed for it.
e.g. When a Korean teacher was accused of molesting a child at an English camp and “unchecked native speakers” were blamed.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/02/korean-teachers-union-blames-english-camp-sexual-assaults-on-unchecked-foreign-teachers/
Or more recently, when the Na-Young case became about “foreign pedophiles”:
“The government has announced a package of measures against sex offenders after the Supreme Court upheld a lower-than-expected prison term handed down to Cho Doo-soon, a 57-year-old man convicted of kidnapping and brutally raping a nine-year-old girl.
Cho, given a 12-year-term, is now in prison for class-A criminals in North Gyeongsang Province. The victim, widely known by her alias Na-young, suffered incurable physical and mental damage.
In the inspection, Rep. Lee Joo-young of the ruling Grand National Party urged the ministry to tighten the rule on E-2 visa issuance, arguing it’s so lax that many convicted foreigners attempt to cross borders with legal residential status. The legislator did not disclose the exact number of foreigners caught for the violation.”
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/12/117_54081.html
It’s true that foreigners get riled about this sort of thing. But from a “Psychology 101” perspective the best explanation may not be that it is a “classic example” of expat “losers harboring enormous chips on their shoulders [with] feelings of insecurity.” A better contender might be that in order to avoid seeing certain faults in themselves, humans tend to project those faults on to others. The theory of defensive projection by Freud.
The perennial focus on foreign teachers’ sex abuse of Korean children tends to come in the form you have given it:
But when you ask for specific cases, public verifiable data, etc., that’s when you get statements like the ones from Rep. Lee Joo-young about “undisclosed crimes” and “potential child molesters”.
http://populargusts.blogspot.com/2009/11/on-this-list-may-be-21000-e-2-visa.html
In the meantime, however, there is data on ‘disclosed’ crimes by ‘actual’ child molesters who are Korean, as well as evidence that Korean “Teachers Get Light Punishment Over Sexual Violence,”
“A total of 124 sexual crimes involving elementary and secondary school teachers were reported to the education authorities between 2006 and 2009. Among them, 47 involved prostitution, 43 were sexual harassment and five were rape cases.
However, only eight teachers (6 percent) were given prison sentences, while 31 were not indicted and 28 received suspended sentences.
‘It seems that teachers were exempt from punishment through out-of-court settlements with the parents of the victims,’ Rep Choi [Young Hee] said.
‘Moreover, each city and provincial education offices, which were supposed to strictly punish those teachers, gave only verbal warnings. Only 21 teachers were fired for sexual violence.’”
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/10/117_53165.html
When you take off the nationalist blinders and acknowledge that any particular nationality can be a “potential child molester,” you realize that universal protection measures should be in place for children. Moreover, the mere fact that there are many more Korean teachers than foreign teachers means that there will be more child predator teachers who are Korean – so burying one’s head in the sand about them doesn’t make sense if the goal is to protect kids.
That doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be protections in place to prevent foreign child sexual predators from coming to Korea masquerading as English teachers. There should be, and I haven’t met many expats who’d disagree with that. Besides actually caring about kids getting abused, legitimate expats in Korea have a selfish incentive for keeping foreign child predators out. Bad press about foreigners makes life for foreigners difficult.
But the way to keep foreign sex predators out of Korea isn’t by lining them up for AIDS and drug tests in Korean hospitals. Instead, you do real, high-scrutiny criminal background checks and character references in the home country through a bona fide background check agency working with the Korean embassy – and if they don’t meet the criteria, don’t issue the visa. What you don’t do is give whoever a visa, let them come to Korea, and then ask for a pro forma easily fake-able internet printout from any local police station within the U.S.
@84
But, without more, wouldn’t that mean Korea has a “big, serious, ongoing problem” with marijuana?
@84
Well, they can run but they can’t hide. The “long reach of US law” covers the globe when it comes to illicit sex with minors. The Protect Act of 2003 (Prosecutorial Remedies and Other Tools to end the Exploitation of Children Today) has extraterritorial jurisdiction. There have been numerous prosecutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2003/April/03_ag_266.htm
Korea, on the other hand, has been unwilling or unable to put similar remedies in place, despite “[c]hildren’s advocates . . . calling for domestic laws to punish Korean men who use underage prostitutes overseas.”
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200507/200507060009.html
“The National Youth Commission charged yesterday that Korean fishermen are largely responsible for the existence of a teen prostitution industry in Kiribati, a small island nation in the South Pacific. . . . Investigators said they found dozens of underage prostitutes working in bars that the fishermen frequented. The commission said that Kiribati teenagers between the ages of 15 and 19 told them that fishermen solicited them in the bars. . . . Some of the girls have borne fishermen’s children, according to the commission.”
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2590456
“The South Korean embassy in Mongolia said, ‘Sex tourism is undermining the image of South Korea and its people.’ At the end of 2007, there were some 3,000 South Korean nationals in Mongolia. Last year, the number of South Korean tourists to Mongolia stood at some 40,000 people . . . . [In 2007] South Korea’s Ministry of Gender Equality and Family revised a passport law and the government is now allowed to ban people who have been arrested for buying sex from being issued new passports or passport renewals. However, the effect of the ban has so far been negligible.
Bae Lim Sook-il, the head of the Incheon Women’s Hotline, said, ‘Prostitution (in South Korea) isn’t even being punished properly. So the government can’t punish people for soliciting prostitution in foreign countries.’
Lee Na-young, a sociology professor at ChungAng University, said, ‘The mindset and culture of Korean males, which view females as objects of entertainment, needs to be fundamentally changed.’”
http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/298846.html
Bravo, Ben Wagner.
As previously demonstrated with the example of racism, a behavior can exist for a long time before it is publicly recognized or its perception can change, leading to a change in terminology.
Where to start with this mess? First, wife-beating is the colloquial term, but I don’t think the term predates domestic violence by much. Second, even the term itself is inaccurate as women beat men, and nonmarried partners of either sex beat each other. See above reference to how language changes as people’s understanding or perception changes.
Do you mean that the number of incidents has risen over the past thirty to forty years or that awarness of the problem has risen?
You must be joking. Verbalized beliefs in the innate racial inferiority of people of color provided justification for slavery and discriminatory laws and behaviors imposed upon Asians, Africans, and the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
Who cares about what you think, Robert? Apparently child molester sentencing in Korea is such an important issue that it needs to take over any post, regardless of relevance.
Number of posts by thekorean in this thread: 4
Number of posts by thekorean in this thread that are relevant to the original topic of the old gate: 0
Appears you’re contributing to the problem you’re criticizing then, doesn’t it?
Freud is not science. Groups (at multiple levels) distinguish between in-group and out-group behaviors.
You don’t have to “realize that universal protection measures should be in place.” You can realize that there will be variation, determine probabilities, and then consider these along with other criteria.
Sorry, I’m too busy worrying about the child molestation sentencing issue — about which, if you recall, I agreed with your point — to figure out what the hell you are talking about. There are a lot of articles to read about it, you know. Did you know that the Supreme Court formed a special committee investigating the issue? It recently released its report.
Somebody say something about a gate?
I had never heard of the Namdaemun until it was destroyed. And I was living in Korea at the time, and had already visited Seoul. I think it is fair to say that Korea has failed to connect its iconic landmarks to its tourism efforts. Its restoration will create a great opportunity to change that.
Tell the world. Make the new Namdaemun a symbol of Seoul/ Korea. Stop hiding your best features. Are you listening, Korea Tourism?
You went to live in Korea without even having read at least a korean guidebook!!
I don’t think that was a failure on Korea’s part.
What I don’t understand is — why was that douchebag allowed to wear a face mask?
I do recall that you agreed with my point, and I’m quite sure you know exactly what the hell I’m talking about. There’s no need for you to criticize and mock others for discussing the off-topic issue when in fact you yourself were part of the conversation and displayed no interest at all in discussing the original post topic as Robert referred to.
As you’ll recall I specifically mentioned earlier in the thread that I was glad to see that the Na Young case had brought about such a strong public reaction and spurred legislators into looking at revising laws and sentencing guidelines. It’s certainly a step in the right direction, and I hope the follow-through actually matches the publicity and rhetoric, because there is a tendency for high-profile cases to stir up a temporary wave of anger that slowly subsides until the next public outrage emerges, and long-term changes are often lost in the mix.
The Korean media doesn’t customarily show the full face of an accused or print the full name unless the person is well-known or a foreigner.
There’s a disconnect between ihbb’s support of strong sentences for child molesters and child murderers and his support of the “West Memphis 3″.
8675309:
It may be helpful to remember that this 8675309 character is the one who, under another name, on the day the news of the Cho Seung-hui massacre broke, wrote comments about how it had to be a white guy, because mass murders at schools were a “white” thing and unknown to Koreans and other Asians.
dogbertt, what nick did he post under?
IIRC, “H. Kim”.
There’s no disconnect whatsoever. In the United States I support even tougher penalties and harsher restrictions on child molesters/murderers than currently exist. That doesn’t mean I can’t donate significant time and money to The Innocence Project, which works to free the wrongly convicted, and is in my opinion the single most important legal organization in existence. Perhaps you’re ignorant enough to believe that all those convicted of crimes are actually guilty of those crimes, and if that’s the case, I’ve got a link for you to contribute to the retirement fund of OJ Simpson.
Here’s another disconnect for you dogbertt: Not only do I support stronger sentences for child molesters, but I worked my ass off for several months last year trying to set up screenings around the country for this documentary about numerous parents whose lives were decimated after being wrongly convicted of sexually abusing their own children by overzealous and corrupt prosecutors who were aided by so-called “experts” that turned out to be psychologists pushing kids to make up fantastically false stories of abuse that were then sold to juries.
What a crazy disconnect….advocating to harshly punish child molesters while at the same time working to ensure that the system doesn’t destroy the lives of innocent people wrongly convicted, as happens far more often than it should.
Clearly people like me need to be stopped.
“I don’t think that was a failure on Korea’s part.”
So typical of the attitude that has pervaded Korea’s lousy tourism efforts to date, that the world must learn about Korea’s culture.
Yes, I did have a guidebook. I’m talking about the image that precedes buying a guidebook. New York = the Statue of Liberty and Empire State Building; Paris = the Eiffel Tower; India = the Taj Mahal, etc.
Of course not, perhaps 0.1% or so of those convicted are wrongly convicted. Of course, I’m sure every con will be happy to tell you he’s innocent — nice to know you’re a soft touch, despite your hardass persona on the interwebs. Maybe you can send money to those lads locked up for Jamie Bulger’s torture and murder too.
I know you’re a smart guy, but you weren’t on the “Memphis 3″ jury, nor were you the judge there — your arrogance notwithstanding, what makes you so much smarter that you can be sure they were wrongly convicted? Maybe Obama should appoint you as a supreme judicial arbiter over all criminal trials.
So, who did sexually torture and murder those little boys if not your “Memphis 3″ buds?
The difference there is that no crimes were actually committed. Not so with the “Memphis 3″ where we have dead boy bodies sans genitals.
Stats? Again, I say your intelligence and omnipotence is poorly used on this board — Obama could surely use you as his supreme judicial arbiter of criminal trials.
What normal person would advocate for the rights of accused child molesters and murderers?
bluballs’ hyposcrisy stinks to high heaven. What an embarrasing oversight on his part. Oh well, good luck finding the “real killers”…
No one expects you to understand the difference between accused child molesters, convicted child molesters, and wrongfully convicted child molesters.
Don’t worry, the low expectations brought on by your earlier retardation in this thread means you only look a little bit stupid when making statements like this. So you got that going for you.
Yeah, you might want to find yourself another legal crusade (and maybe another avatar) if you want to go ranting and raving about kiddie fuckers in Korea. You sicko.
You’re only off by a factor of between 5 and 30, depending on who you believe, as there are no definitive statistics, just estimates and extrapolations.
If it were truly only 0.1%, then numerous states wouldn’t be setting up independent innocence commissions to go through the backlogs of old cases to get DNA testing done and clear innocent people.
Hey guess what dogbertt, it’s not just minorities that benefit from The Innocence Project! There are some white people who were wrongfully convicted too. Shouldn’t that appeal to your Archie Bunker sensibilities?
Of course they will, and some of them actually are. But you seem willing to accept the collateral damage and lump them all together rather than acknowledge that the entire process has numerous flaws and that devoting time and resources to helping the wrongfully convicted prove their innocence is not only worthwhile, but absolutely required by any standard of justice or morality.
And maybe you can go visit Jeff Modahl — whose 12-year old daughter tried to commit suicide (and then tried more than a dozen times in the next few years) after feeling responsible for putting her innocent father in prison for 15 years with false testimony coerced out of her — and you can tell him about how all cons are full of shit when they say they’re innocent. Maybe have a laugh at his daughter while you’re at it.
It is possible to read a trial transcript, watch a good part of the trial video, see the evidence, read primary sources, supplemental materials, and opinion about the case, and then form an opinion of my own. Lots of others both inside and out of the legal profession have done the same thing and reached the same conclusion.
Black and white eh dogbertt. It’s impossible to clear the WM3 unless another person can be convicted? This was exactly the attitude of the DA in West Memphis, who after several weeks without significant leads and tons of public pressure decided that he had to convice someone, anyone, and so he brought the 3 metalheads who dressed in black in for questioning and ended up getting the semi-retarded one to “confess” after 12 hours of questioning without his parents or a lawyer, of which 46 minutes was recorded.
And by “confess” I mean tell the police numerous different spoon-fed stories with conflicting timelines and all kinds of contradictions of fact while being coached about what to say and promised to be let free if he told them what they wanted to hear. And that was the entire case. No physical evidence at all. No murder weapon. No blood evidence despite the brutal skinning of the victims. No DNA. No witnesses that could even put them anywhere near the crime scene. The entire case was based on a false, coerced confession from a minor with a 70 IQ without any other adult representation present except for the police.
Right, because throwing dozens of innocent parents in prison for decades while manipulating their children into making up false stories of abuse, resulting in the destruction of the lives of both the parents and the children (who not only had to spend years living without their parents but are racked with guilt for the rest of their lives for having been pawns in the process) doesn’t qualify as a “crime.”
Of course there was a fucking crime committed! Only it was committed by the district attorney’s office against average working class people so I guess that makes it acceptable. Let you or someone you know have their life and family permanently fucked when they’re completely innocent and see how you characterize it. An inconvenience?
See above links for the stats. And your childish Obama joke was fucking dumb the first time…no need to repeat it.
You either can’t read, or you’re wilfully misrepresenting the issue I’m referring to. Either way you’re nothing more than a troll. And a fucking gormless one at that.
Regardless of your stupidity, I find it completely irrational and ridiculous how any logical person (which dogbertt usually is) could oppose something like The Innocence Project.
They only take on cases in which the evidence of innocence is significant after a lengthy screening process. If their appeals fail, the criminal stays in jail, and there is no loss to anyone but the people putting the effort in. If they succeed, it is due to the evidence of innocence being so absolutely OVERWHELMING (very often newly discovered or newly tested DNA evidence that either wasn’t available for testing at the time or simply wasn’t tested for other reasons) that the court has no choice but to free a clearly innocent person, which no one could possibly oppose and most should be in fact celebrating.
So what is the downside and how could anyone possibly criticize this process or the people involved in it?
“of course, he wouldn’t know that since he doesn’t live here.”
ah the not qualified to comment on korean affairs on account of you’re not korean, and not qualified to comment on US ones cause you live in korea gambit. love it
trust you won’t be commenting on the US anymore on account you’re not american (or at least act like you’re not despite your passport) and won’t be commenting on korea anymore on account of you don’t live there
An indipendent commission set up with the help of, among many, some Ruth McClendon, a democrat texas Rep. and a 48 years old black woman, i can see the indipedence there already.
Let’s say i was living there and i had a child with an American woman of some minority descent and she accused me of molesting the child in a bittter divorce (no it didn’t happen to me in real, as much as my ex was fairly questionable she was never such a sicko and she’s white) and i had to explain my case in front of this commission…well let’s put it this way: i’d feel safer if i had to defend myself against an allegation of blasphemy against Prophet Mohamed in a Shari’a compliant court.
Justice has become in the West for the most part disgustingly politicised, reflecting the splintering and polarisation of our society into so many small vocal minority and interest groups.
And back to the topic i have to say i was surprised to see that such a national landmark didn’t have any protection by the law enforcement, here most of our national treasuries are guarded non-stop cos otherwise they would be destroyed in no time: angry soccer ultras (they destroyed one hand of the David di Donatello during the world cup of 1994), regular psychos, people looking for publicity etc.
I noticed there’s a distinct lack of security culture in Korea, which from what i figured involves children too (i’m always kinda weirded out to see schoolkids younger than my son roaming the streets on their own).
Now this is probbably something that will change out of necessity, but it is not per se a bad thing as it is probably the sign of a fundamentally less dangerous society.
And yet, the jury, which did the same, came to the conclusion that those three were guilty.
But you’re in good company — Demi Lovato says they’re innocent too — omfg! Let the intellectual heavyweights continue to weigh in.
The collective wisdom of 12 great minds could never get it wrong,
especially in Texas. The judge in the case made it very clear to the jury to convict the mother of first-degree murder only if there was strong evidence that a) she knew that feeding the child salt would kill him; or b) she deliberately delayed medical treatment so that he would die. When a reporter asked a jurist if she thought the mom deliberately tried to kill the child, the jurist replied, “That’s something we’ll never know.” Clearly this juror misunderstood the judge’s instructions, and probably others did, too.
Sonagi, something tells me you’re also a member of some save Amanda Knox group
I’m not really opposed to the Innocence Project. Never heard of it, don’t care about it. I just find it funny and ironic that your penis avatar links to a fansite for three convicted child killers.
Have you even entertained the remotest possibility that you are wrong and they’re guilty? You’re defending three monsters who sexually mutilated and murdered there little boys. Not just defending them, but making heroes out of them by the looks of that site. Absolutely disgusting.
That something is wrong.
All this tells anyone is that you watch “20/20″.
But of course that makes you an expert and smarter than 12 Texans you don’t know, just because, well they’re Southerners and all.
It’s encouraging to see a lawyer with absolute faith in the reliability of juries.
They sure did. And despite your child-like belief in the infallibility of juries, they can be wrong, which is why we have an appeals process and we don’t shut down the judicial process after a jury renders a verdict.
Hey look, you’re also in good company — Stephen Baldwin shares your disdain for Obama too — omfg! Let the intellectual heavyweights continue to weigh in.
And he’s like the dumbest of all the Baldwin brothers, with his own Hannah Montana tattoo! I guess given your logic, your criticism of Obama must be illegitimate because a known buffoon shares your view.
Can’t wait til Paris Hilton publicly states her strong opposition to illegal immigration…which in turn will force you into an open borders stance. At least until Britney Spears talks about how she supports open borders, in which case you’ll have to do an analysis of which one is dumber in order to choose your position. Quite a box you’ve cornered yourself into by relying on the least common denominator to flesh out the value of your beliefs.
Oh, the horror of a black woman being a politician and exercising political power.
Let me guess, given your previous comments about how the locals are entitled to intimidate foreigners to make sure they know their place, you’re probably proud, as opposed to embarrassed, of shit like this.
IHBB: well i may be completely wrong, as my education is admittedly very incomplete, but when i was living in America i had the distinct impression that most black people HATE whites to the bone and society in general is very polarised among racial lines, despite a remarkably (for the most part) peaceful coexistence.
Not only that i also had the impression that the whole system is under stress thanks to the continous agenda-pushing of special interest groups, each out to increase their turf at the expense of the other (liberal, gays, christian conservatives, women etc. etc. just to name a few).
Now you may understand that i woldn’t feel enthusiastic to have my case reviewed by a panel built under these circumstances, you know something deep in my heart tells me that a commission built by the people mentioned in the article might consider i.e. a black woman differently than a white man.
it works the other way around too: if i was, say, a half black half latino bisexual woman living in a poliamory lifestyle sure i wouldn’t feel too reassured walking into a rural Tennessee court with a criminal charge hanging over my head.
To cut a long story short i have no problem with a black woman exercising power, i have all the problems in the world with a black liberal woman if she, instead of exercising her power for the people, she would do it to favour just black, liberal or women interests.
Now to point # 2
Guess what ? Completely wrong, i’m a xenophobe, a social conservative, an anti-multiculturalist and a nationalist, not a racist. Mario was raised by Italian parents, he speaks Italian, he always lived here hence he’s Italian, couldn’t care less what color he is. He’s an immensely talented player and i hope when he becomes a bit less of a spoiled shithead (but who wouldn’t be like that if they were a multimillionaire at 19) he will be part of our national soccer team.
One of the things i hate the most is when people let fake concepts like race and religion trump the true ideals: nation and land.
And you know what ? Among all the groups of immigrant we have here Africans are some of the least problematic (‘cept the Nigerians), they’re generally very laid-back, good natured and HARD WORKING people and commit minimal crimes.
Instead i would happily ship Eastern Europeans, on average much fairer than us, back to their peasant nations. Don’t tell anybody though, i don’t want to jeopardise my application to become Stormfront Italy CEO.
Last but not least i have to admit my foreigner intimidation comment should have been elaborated a bit better, there will be a chance i’m sure.
I have lived in two communities of similar size and of similar demographics. The first, a liberal college town, was very racially polarized. The second, a small southern town whose inhabitants are amateur Civil War historians, is not. I could speculate on the reasons for the difference, but I won’t. Suffice it to say that is extremely difficult to make generalizations about a country as large and diverse in every way as the US.
I’m not against using generalizations when they fit, but I don’t think this is accurate. Certainly there are pockets of hatred for whites among the black community, and as Sonagi mentioned it differs according to many different factors, but saying that most harbor that level of hatred seems to be a gross exaggeration.
Fair enough and if my guess was wrong, I’ll be glad to admit it. Among all the Africans playing in Italian football leagues surely he’s an exception with his background and upbringing, so do you think the same respect should be accorded to the African players that are not Italian nationals, do not speak Italian, but are just in the country on work visas to play football? And I don’t mean treating them as Italian citizens, but just respecting them as people in the country making a living as foreigners?
Because the level of racism directed at the African players in Italy seems to be at a rather extreme level, even in comparison to that which exists in other European leagues (which I think is shameful). Shit like throwing bananas, and imitating monkeys, and singing racist songs en masse…it seems to be a long-term problem without much effort to eradicate it or take it seriously.
I’ll donate $100 to the “WM3″ defense fund if you can show me where I wrote that I believed juries were infallible.
I don’t, for the simple reason that any human system is fallible.
But you know who else had a child-like belief in juries? The drafters of the U.S. Constitution, that’s who! I’m sure though you already figured out long ago how much smarter you are than a bunch of dead white men.
Now, you mention appeals. When the “WM3″ finally exhaust their appeals, and their convictions are upheld, as they will be, well, just who will you blame then? The judges? The public? The victims?
I wonder why you went to the trouble of reading trial transcripts, etc., when little Demi assuredly didn’t, yet managed to arrive at the same conclusion.
Oh, and Free Mumia!
Woman, I said no such thing. You committed the same error in reading comprehension IHBB did. He’s smart, so his doing so genuinely confused me. You, well, you are a teacher so I thought you might have learned reading comprehension well enough to teach it.
I’ve never met a lawyer who has absolute faith in the jury system. What lawyers believe is that the jury system is better than the alternatives.
Speaking of Absolute Faith,
I’ll ask bluballs the question again:
Have you even entertained the remotest possibility that you are wrong and they’re guilty? You’re defending three monsters who sexually mutilated and murdered there little boys. Not just defending them, but making heroes out of them by the looks of that site.
You didn’t state that specifically, you just implied it with the sum of these comments:but you weren’t on the “Memphis 3″ jury, nor were you the judge there — your arrogance notwithstanding, what makes you so much smarter that you can be sure they were wrongly convicted?***And yet, the jury, which did the same, came to the conclusion that those three were guilty.***But of course that makes you an expert and smarter than 12 Texans you don’t know, just because, well they’re Southerners and all.
You seem to be setting the jury decision up as an unassailable truth beyond question or doubt.
Yes dogbertt, I’ll blame the victims. I plan to travel to Arkansas to visit the graves of the children that were killed and yell at their headstones. Because having the opinion that the people convicted of the crimes did not commit them, must also mean that I hate the 8-year old victims. Quite a logical connection you’ve made there.
Christ, now you’re just embarrassing yourself. In your infinite wisdom you’ve now twice thought it wise to bring up an irrelevant pop-tart as if she or her opinion have any bearing whatsoever on this discussion or the merits of the case or my opinion of it. And to think that you were lecturing me earlier in the thread on the poor use of intelligence. Mind-boggling.
If you’re going to debase yourself intellectually by stooping to ridiculous association games, why stop at Mumia and Jamie Bulger’s killers? Why not accuse me of being a Ted Bundy-lover, a rabid fan of Jeffrey Dahmer, or a Charles Manson groupie? I mean come on, Osama Bin Laden supporter and anti-American terrorist lover are just around the corner if you’re interested in traveling another block. You’ve already connected several dots…by all means keep drawing the line. Surely there are some sheep out there willing to follow your pen. Tinyflowers is already on the trail.
Of course I have. I would be a brainless dolt if I hadn’t. And yes there’s a chance they’re guilty…but my opinion based on my knowledge of the case is that it’s a miniscule chance at best, and certainly doesn’t come anywhere near reaching the reasonable doubt threshold.
Either that or I’m defending three innocent kids who got railroaded. It’s a pretty fine line in some cases and of course every innocent person that was ever wrongly convicted was considered a monster right up to the time the system acknowledged its mistake, at which time the monster magically transformed into a victim whose life was taken away for no reason.
@145
Better 100 innocent men falsely accused than one guilty go free, eh?
Sonagi&IHBB: yes you’re right, it was an exageration, mind you that most of my American experiences were based in Chicago, which seemed to me a brutally racial city. Part of my dislike for Obama actually stems from the fact he is a Chicago politician.
IHBB: yes, yes and yes to all your questions, i don’t think that granting visas to foreigners when locals strive to get an opportunity is a smart policy, but that should never lead to any kind of disrespect for people, who work hard and just try to better their lives. Africans are good and courageous people, if our youth had the cojones this people have maybe the nation wouldn’t sink in the toilet deeper every day.
Unfortunately soccer here has become a national shame (it is basically a recruiting ground for the mafia, who pick there the most violent teens of the country), i did the ultras thing when i was 14-16 in the late 1980′s-early 90′s and maybe i’m romanticising things but it wasn’t as demented as today.
And back to the topic i was impressed last September i went to see with fiancé a kickboxing event at the Olympic park in Seoul: great show, nice arena and MINIMAL SECURITY. No paranoia, no roided buffoons covered in their usual poser brands (Affliction, Tap Out, Boxeur des rues etc.), no bouncers. Only annoyance was provided by the 2 Japanese groupies in heat sitting next to us, thanks God they disappeared soon as they probably got what they wanted.
I’m not sure modern Korea can still afford such a carefree attitude toward security, but God i love it, it makes me feel i’m dealing with a nation of adults.
So have you mailed your check out to the WM3 fund yet, Dogbert now that IHBB was patient enough to explain a simple inference?
I didn’t infer juries were infallible; the inference was that a jury that was impaneled to hear a trial may just have come to the correct conclusion notwithstanding Monday morning quarterbacking by those who weren’t on that jury.
Oh Dogbertt on a Mumia related note you might be thrilled to know that one of Mumia accomplices was an Italian woman (a very pale blue eyed Italian, speaking of wiggers), she was extradited here under the promise she was going to serve her life sentence in a local jail…needless to say in no time she was out on probation. Apparently our left wing government of the time requested her freedom in exchange of granting Mrs Allbright the necessary logistics for the butchering (i refuse to call it war) of Serbia in 1999, by the way that was the most cowardly act the US committted in the post-WW 2 era.
Isn’t justice mixed with politics such a marvelous thing ?
Former Hyundai executive extradited in 2005 hit-run death
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/31/local/me-extradite31
Perhaps MOST of us can all agree that justice was finally served in this instance.
Yet another travesty of justice . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Former Hyundai executive gets 9 years
http://www.ocregister.com/news/lee-53985-ocprint-hyundai-cook.html
Actually, this gives more details on the sentence he received. The wrongful-death lawsuit against Hyundai Motors is set for May 17.
The inference that you’ve made is irrelevant as it does not address the specific concerns about each case. Holding the three branches of government, including the judicial system, accountable is part of citizenship. Good on IHBB for his activism.
It appeared to me that you were inferring that this particular jury was infallible, as all your posts had a tinge of indignation at the mere possibility that someone could question the verdict. And the difference between appeals or exoneration efforts and Monday morning quarterbacking is that the former can actually redress a potential wrong.
Regardless, this dead horse has been beaten long enough. For anyone that wants to learn about the case, Mara Leveritt’s book Devil’s Knot is a good start. There were also two documentaries made: Paradise Lost & Paradise Lost 2.
48 Hours Mystery on CBS is also doing a show this Saturday (Feb 27th) about the case. I don’t think they needed to include Johnny Depp, as some people seem to be turned off by celebrity involvement and somehow think it detracts from the legitimacy of the effort, but of course they’re looking for ratings so he gets some camera time.
Regardless of which side of the verdict you happen to come down on, it’s a fascinating case from both a legal and sociological standpoint
“Were there serial killers in the Roman Republic, in Enlightenment-Era England, in 18th century Russia and Tang Dynasty China?”
All always the same, nothing changes, always has been always will be. There is no Roman Republic, Enlightenment-Era England, 18th century Russia and Tang Dynasty China.
I had never heard of the Namdaemun until it was destroyed. And I was living in Korea at the time, and had already visited Seoul. I think it is fair to say that Korea has failed to connect its iconic landmarks to its tourism efforts
I don’t think that was a failure on Korea’s part.
hahahaha!
It’s been a long time since I looked back at the Robin Hood Hills (M3) murders. Weren’t there supposedly human bite marks found on the one of the victims? Was it ever proven if they were human bite marks?
“What lawyers believe is that the jury system is better than the alternatives.”
I think you find that not all lawyers, nor all jurisdictions do.
In addition having served on a jury, and seen 12 Angry Men syndrome in action I sure have grave doubts that if my life was on the line I’d want to be judged by a jury such as the one I served on.
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