A New Year: A New Japanese Apology

by robert neff on February 12, 2010

Japanese Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada apologized for the Japanese occupation of Korea:

I believe it was a tragic incident for Koreans when they were deprived of their nation and their identity,” Okada said, according to the Yonhap news agency.

“I can fully understand the feelings of (Koreans) who were deprived of their identity and nation. I believe we must never forget the victims,” he added.

I like Foreign Dispatches blog’s take on this - (obviously including the title which I shamelessly lifted but paraphrased from him)

“Knowing how prone to amnesia Korean nationalists can be when it comes to Japanese apologies, it will be interesting to see just how long it takes after this apology before the next future outburst of rage from the Korean peninsula over Japan’s supposed lack of contrition (or, when such critics pressed on the facts, the ‘insufficient sincerity’ of said contrition) …”

{ 127 comments… read them below or add one }

1 thekorean February 12, 2010 at 11:43 am

I like MOFA representative’s response:

김영선 외교부 대변인은 “과거를 직시하는 가운데 미래지향적인 우호협력관계를 구축한다는 오카다 외상의 인식을 평가한다”며 “아울러 오카다 외상의 인식이 과거사 현안 해결에 진전을 이루는 구체적 행동으로 이어지길 기대한다”고 말했다.

(emphasis mine.)

Action counts more than words. But the 99-cent paying people don’t get it.

2 cmm February 12, 2010 at 11:54 am

yeah whatever they didn’t mean this one either. did you look closely enough at the picture to notice that he spoke the apology with his split, serpent tongue?

3 Robin Hedge February 12, 2010 at 11:54 am

Happy news. They should make many apologies and try hard to get past their colonial history. I’m starting to wonder if MacArthur shouldn’t have removed the Emperor from power. Easy to say now, but it might have made a cleaner break from the past. Japanese society now can still feel connected through the Emperor to the Imperial regime. Just a thought after hearing John Searle talk about war as a “speech event” (I force you to accept “defeat,” a word and social function etc etc) in his social ontology. He claims WWII happened because it wasn’t clear enough to the Germans that they’d been defeated. In their minds they weren’t really defeated, it was some kind of trick or something. And so resentment and eagerness for revenge (or something similar) was acceptable in regular society and became the default attitude. Of course it’s more complex but I don’t have time… Incidentally Searle claims that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were greatly humanitarian in the sense that a conventional war would have been devastating (seems clear).
Anyway Japanese renounced violence but didn’t really seem to renounce the idea of their empire, and that Koizumi was the first to apologize is striking. Of course there are the history book issues and so on. Maybe Sperwer can run though a counterfactual history — what would have happened if, ceterus paribus, the Emperor had been dethroned by MacArthur?

4 Sperwer February 12, 2010 at 12:03 pm

I don’t do counterfactuals, except with garlic, silver bullets and wooden stakes. ;)

5 hoju_saram February 12, 2010 at 12:07 pm

He claims WWII happened because it wasn’t clear enough to the Germans that they’d been defeated.

I’d agree with that assessment. Some people claim that the Allies were too harsh in their reparation demands in 1919, but I think the main problem was that they never marched into Berlin at the end of WW1. Apparently many Germans discovered they’d lost the war in the newspapers, and had no experience of the suffering that had gone on at the front. Inevitably, when the screws were turned, the thought of another war didn’t seem so bad.

6 red sparrow February 12, 2010 at 12:10 pm

“Knowing how prone to amnesia Korean nationalists can be when it comes to Japanese apologies…”

Having a better memory would deprive them of constantly being able to play the victim card.

7 Soma36 February 12, 2010 at 12:34 pm

Has the issue traditionally been not so much whether the Japanese meant it, but whether the right wording was used ie a straight out “We are really really sorry, like, actually sorry” kind of thing. Reading the Japanese (well from this article at least) http://www.asahi.com/politics/update/0211/TKY201002110253.html) it does not seem to be the case this time either.

That said, how many times do you need to express something along the lines of the how much guilt and pain you feel for inflicting pain upon others before you look sufficiently contrite? Even if the did do a one time thing – a straight “sorry” from the emperor, say, I am not convinced that this would not be soon forgotten either. Not sure “expressing” this every 7 years is really helping anyone.

8 otoritakeo February 12, 2010 at 1:20 pm

1. Refusal to acknowledge and compensate comfort women
2. Yasukuni visits by the leaders of the party that ruled Japan continuously since the American occupation
3. Refusing to return Korean artefacts looted during the colonial period
4. The 99 yen payment to those who were forced to uproot from their homes to work as slaves in Japan
5. ++++

Right.

Blame it on the Koreans.

9 lollabrats February 12, 2010 at 1:26 pm

Japan: We are sorry. Bad things were done to you. We should remember the vicitms.

Korea: Oh. Wow. Are you just now admitting that you forced women to be your sex slaves?

Japan: You shouldn’t try to revision history. It seems that those women were not coerced. They were all willing prostitutes.

Korea: Is that right? But you will admit that you used slaves for industrial labor?

Japan: I don’t know what you mean. Why don’t you try to prove it.

China (butting in): Why don’t you folks admit that you went out of your way to massacre Chinese people, slaughtering us in mass extermination campaigns cutting south across Asia from Manchuria down to Singapore and Indonesia?

Japan: You folks are just blowing things out of proportion. It was never that bad. Please, we’re addressing the Korean people.

Korea: Do you acknowledge that you intentionally starved people to death?

Japan: It was war. Nobody had much to eat.

Korea: But you did things that can’t be justified, even by war, like how you practiced medical experimentation on human subjects?

Japan: What are you talking about? We would never do such thing.

Korea: You used chemical weapons on the battlefield, tortured and killed and cannibalized POWs.

Japan: All’s fair in war.

Korea: Fine. Why don’t you at least admit that your wars of conquest damaged our society?

Japan: Actually, we did all of you a benevolent service. If it wasn’t for us, you’d still be living in the middle ages.

Korea: Excuse me?

Japan: Bad things happened. And we regret they happened. But you should try to face the truth and understand how we developed your nation and raised you up out of the gutter. You have come along as far as you did only because we gave you the infrastracture and culture.

Korea: But all that wealth you looted from us, are you saying all that is your fee? Or will you give them back to us.

Japan: Finders keepers.

Korea: But at least give up your ridiculous claims over Dokdo.

Japan: Takeshima is Japan. You should hand them over.

Korea: We heard you say that you apologize. But we don’t exactly get what you’re apologizing for.

Japan: Because bad things were done, which in actuality was a great benefit to you. And we should remember the victims, even though we do not acknowledge any wrong doing or that there are any victims. Certainly, we are not liable because contractually you relieved us of any legal responsibility. But we should remember the victims of that horrible war anyway. Especially those who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Korea: But you know that many who died there were Korean slaves and unpaid laborers.

Japan: That was our misery and not yours. But we will deign to incorporate your little memorial into our holy site of Rememberance since you keep bitching about it…

You Korean nationalists are too prone to amnesia when it comes to our apologies.

red sparrow: I feel your pain, Japan. But having a better memory would deprive them of constantly being able to play the victim card.

10 thekorean February 12, 2010 at 1:32 pm

lollabrats, I regret that I cannot give +1000.

11 bumfromkorea February 12, 2010 at 2:06 pm

@lollabrats

Oh, snap.

12 cmm February 12, 2010 at 2:10 pm

Here’s a fair question. If Japan came clean, admitted to forcing women to be comfort women, massacres, medical experimentation, etc., paid reasonable reparations–big full apology, do you think Koreans (or Chinese) would want to let it go? (A life with reduced 한?!)

Here’s another fair question. Do China and Korea realize that the Japanese people responsible for all of the wrongdoings are either long dead or very old and feeble, and that the people running Japan now were either small children or not even born during the atrocities? And that the Japan of today is drastically different from Japan 50-100 years ago? Or put more fairly, should this not matter? I mean, I personally don’t feel responsible for a single thing that my grandfather might have done, and if someone tried to get something out of me as a result of my grandfather’s actions, no matter how heinous, I’d think they are ridiculous.

13 Sperwer February 12, 2010 at 2:14 pm

Re 11: As long as there are so many Koreans willing to indulge themselves in the sort of han-drenched onanism on display in ##8-9, the answer to your questions is “no”

14 abcdefg February 12, 2010 at 2:24 pm

Koreans don’t forget the apologies. They just remember all the crap that follows in between the apologies that void them.

Anyway, it’s a complex issue, and one which I’m not particularly interested in. One thing I’ll leave on the table is: Isn’t the guy who runs Foreign Dispatches one of the biggest douchebags on the internet? Dousshh…. Is he still taking creepy pictures of models and random white people?

15 thekorean February 12, 2010 at 2:31 pm

Here’s a fair question. If Japan came clean, admitted to forcing women to be comfort women, massacres, medical experimentation, etc., paid reasonable reparations–big full apology, do you think Koreans … would want to let it go? (A life with reduced 한?!)

Y.E.S. In one of my previous posts, I outlined a “Godfather” offer that Japan has to make Korea — the offer which Korea cannot refuse. I believe that if that offer is made, Korea has to take it.

But here is another fair rejoinder: As a party that committed the original wrong, shouldn’t Japan do all the actions that you described without regards to whether or not Korea is willing to accept it?

Do China and Korea realize that the Japanese people responsible for all of the wrongdoings are either long dead or very old and feeble, and that the people running Japan now were either small children or not even born during the atrocities?

I can’t speak for the Chinese, but it is not as if Koreans want the current generation of Japanese to be tried before a military tribunal for Comfort Women and Unit 731. Really, all Koreans want is a sincere recognition that Japan did something wrong.

And before you even say that Japan has been making such recognition, let me point out that each act of recognition has been amply negated by loudly spoken action that denies those recognitions — most recently the 99 cent payment. And that’s why I find the “Japan has been apologizing forever!” argument so odious. An apology is not a credit in the moral bank account so that you can commit more wrongdoings later. Anyone with a functioning moral compass knows this. If you say you recognize things on one day and fail to recognize on the next, what’s the point?

16 red sparrow February 12, 2010 at 2:54 pm

France: “Oh mon dieu. You dirty German dogs! How we suffered under you. We demand that you apolog… No, wait. Never mind. We are mature adults who got over all that shit decades ago.”

So, speaking of moral compasses, why doesn’t Korea for a change take the high ground and say: “Okay Japan, apology accepted. From this day forward we are over it. You lot can continue to act like a bunch of pricks but we will no longer allow ourselves to get dragged into these childish tit-for-tat exchanges. Now be a dear and pass the soju.”

17 cmm February 12, 2010 at 3:09 pm

TK, thanks for the answer to my devil’s advocate query. I’ll give your Godfather post a read soon.

18 tinyflowers February 12, 2010 at 3:17 pm

France: “Oh mon dieu. You dirty German dogs! How we suffered under you. We demand that you apolog… No, wait. Never mind. We are mature adults who got over all that shit decades ago.”

Yeah but there aren’t too many Nazi apologists around are there? Nor are there too many right wing German politicians around saying that the Nazis were the misunderstood victims of WWII, that they actually helped to develop Poland, etc. No whitewashed history books. No black vans driving down the streets of Berlin blasting neo Nazi propaganda. You get the picture.

Why is it that Germany has been able to make a clean break from the past and Japan hasn’t?

This is why Japan constantly apologizes. It is Japan’s problem, not Korea’s.

19 abcdefg February 12, 2010 at 3:25 pm

You lot can continue to act like a bunch of pricks but we will no longer allow ourselves to get dragged into these childish tit-for-tat exchanges. Now be a dear and pass the soju.”

—So you agree that Japanese (the authorities that be) are a bunch of pricks? If so, then I can agree with your drift.

I just wish to see some balance. How about instead of getting the hate on and exclusively denigrating Koreans for their response to the issue, we first chastise the Japanese for their responses to the issue, eh? Stop pointing fingers in one direction.

20 McGenghis February 12, 2010 at 4:28 pm

There is a breed whose only joy is finding the misery of Korea and converting it into treasure that they share with pirates for a few weeks.
I understand these folks, and I see that there are many anti-depressants prescribed in our homes. Do not conflate existential angst with Korea. For you, I mean.

21 seouldout February 12, 2010 at 4:55 pm

Given the great exaggeration of Korean suffering, is a Japanese apology for things that didn’t happen a sincere apology? Can’t hold the Japanese to one standard whilst playing fast and loose with the details as Korea sees fit.

Sorry buds, but I don’t equate the Koreans w/ the Jews, Roma, and the others slaughtered by the Nazis. Korea was more like Austria, Croatia and the Ukraine. Through the Japanese apology the Koreans want to be absolved of their collaboration. Should they be?

Why is Germany the example Japan must match? Why not match Turkey instead? Or the U.K. or U.S. for that matter. Whose history is sparky clean?

The Japanese ought to just ignore ‘em. If they’re looking for a bit of fun wind up the Koreans by resuming the kimuchi is Japanese campaign. Counter the ridiculous with the ludicrous.

Any update on Korea’s pardoning WWII war criminals?

22 WangKon936 February 12, 2010 at 5:33 pm

First!.. Oh… 20 comments too late. Bugger.

23 Minjokjuuija February 12, 2010 at 5:49 pm

Genocide is a broader concept than simply immediate physical extermination. Cultural genocide is a part of genocide as well, and its effects are the same as physical extermination. It should be considered just as seriously. The Japanese perpetrated cultural genocide against the Korean nation. Had they not been stopped the Korean nation would have been eventually eradicated.

24 yuna February 12, 2010 at 6:21 pm

The fundamental difference in between the Japanese and the Germans, in their after war stance lies in the difference in opinion of the majority of the people of their own government at the time. Your average 5 year old, 15 year old, 25 year old, all the way to the seniors in Germany genuinely regards Hitler and his cronies as out-of-control thugs who were allowed to commit atrocities against humanity. (except for the young skinheads)

It’s extremely hard to find anyone in Japan who think the guys who were in charge were thugs or war criminals. In fact, most of their dramas and films still depict all of them as heros.

One cannot force-feed uncomfortable truth, neither to the Koreans nor to the Japanese. Koreans should, yes, truly develop a selective amnesia and move on. Let the Japanese come up with varying degrees of sincere deep heart-felt regret every so often. See if they will ever get to the limit of the function of actually being “sorry”.

25 pawikirogii February 12, 2010 at 6:22 pm

Knowing how prone to amnesia Jews can be when it comes to German apologies, it will be interesting to see just how long it takes after this apology before the next future outburst of rage from the Jews over Germany’s supposed lack of contrition.

26 Minjokjuuija February 12, 2010 at 6:55 pm

@ pawi,

I think it’s unfair to single out Jews, if only for the reason that this kind of attitude has been assimilated by all in Western society. It has become the foundational religion of the West post-WWII. It’s interesting how some parallels can be drawn between this modern religion and the original foundational religion of the West, Christianity. In Christianity, Jesus Christ, a Jew, was killed and resurrected, and this is supposed to be the central event of history that informs all morality. In the modern religion, millions of Jews were killed during the Holocaust, and this is supposed to be the central event of history that informs all morality. In Christianity you had Passion Plays, and in the modern religion you have Hollywood movies about the Holocaust that come out frequently. And so on.

27 pawikirogii February 12, 2010 at 7:15 pm

interesting observation, minjok. i just think it’s odd that to this day, the western world continues to go after anybody connected to the incident with jews while telling asian people to shut up about japan’s lack of introspection. to them, there’s a difference between a jew being forced to work and a korean being forced to work when there’s really no difference at all.

28 Minjokjuuija February 12, 2010 at 7:37 pm

@ pawi,

Yes that was part of the point of my comment. It is supposed to function as the central event of history that undergirds a universalizing faith. As such any comparisons to other events must be vigorously denounced as “relativism” since they may detract from the moral force and power of the event. In religious terms, it is heresy, and heresy must be suppressed. Imagine if you were in Medieval Europe and you compared the death of Jesus to the death of someone else. You would be considered crazy, called a heretic, and burned at the stake.

29 pawikirogii February 12, 2010 at 7:43 pm

as always, you’re spot on, minjok. expect you ratings to be in the negative. they don’t like having the truth told to them.

30 lollabrats February 12, 2010 at 9:15 pm

@cmm

“Do China and Korea realize that the Japanese people responsible for all of the wrongdoings are either long dead or very old and feeble, and that the people running Japan now were either small children or not even born during the atrocities?”

Maybe the fact that there are few remaining who committed atrocities makes it easier for younger Japanese to ignore their past. But you can just as easily flip this argument. As long as there are so many Korean vicitims of Japanese atrocities still living and still politically active, it would be difficult for younger Koreans to tell their elders to just “move on,” especially since the Japanese have not shown any inclination to resolve the matter in any reasonable and sincere way. It would actually be morally heinous for younger Koreans to tell these elders to just “get over it.”

On the contrary, the fact that these Koreans are now dying off imbues the Koreans’ quest for a sincere timely apology with heightened urgency.

“Here’s a fair question. If Japan came clean, admitted to forcing women to be comfort women, massacres, medical experimentation, etc., paid reasonable reparations–big full apology, do you think Koreans (or Chinese) would want to let it go? (A life with reduced 한?!)”

Actually, that’s kind of how it always has worked. First of all, over time, grievances tend to subside. And you can see that the youngest generation of Koreans show a much more happier attitude toward the Japanese than older generations do. But to answer your question, a sincere apology does have a transformative effect on damaged relationships. You are an adult. You should be aware by now of the power of a sincere apology. The simple honest admission that you understand and acknowledge that you caused the wronged party pain appears to trigger a program in our brain that allows us to release ourselves from that aspect of our suffering, which perverses our relationship with others. This is why people who have been wronged desire such an open acknowledgment, even though it is hard to see why a couple of word conveyed sincerely should effect any release. It just often works.

It is interesting how you phrased your question. You imply that the Japanese have not “come clean.” Obviously, whether intentional or not, a part of you must recognize that the Japanese have offered mostly insincere apologies.

By continually denying any responsibility or that anything actually happened, they reveal that their apology does not carry the weight of sincerity. And by dragging out this process over decades, they have made it less likely that a real rapprochement can take place quickly.

It is interesting how some of the commenters above say that the Koreans were treated less badly than Jews and Gypsies and homosexuals and people with deformities or mental issues and leftists and communists and Poles and Russians, etc. Furthermore, considering that none of these groups of people continue to clamor about their worse mistreatment to the Germans, these above commenters and the ilk who think as they do imply that these other people are somehow more sanguine than Koreans. But such a conclusion willfully ignores the very different histories of the rapprochement experienced by Germany and their victims and the Japanese and theirs. On the contrary, it is further proof of the power of the sincere apology to transform relationships for the better.

31 cm February 12, 2010 at 9:35 pm

It was only couple of months ago when the Japanese awarded the surviving Korean forced laborers, 99 cents for all their hard work.

I bet my last dime, it won’t be long before someone in the Japanese Diet say something again to disturb the shit again.

It’s actions that counts more, rather than empty words to save face.

32 tinyflowers February 12, 2010 at 9:56 pm

Korea and China will continue to browbeat Japan over the issue at every opportunity. Get used to it. Accept it. It’s a cheap political tool but at least it keeps Japanese war crimes in the spotlight.

33 tinyflowers February 12, 2010 at 9:58 pm

seouldout: “Why is Germany the example Japan must match? Why not match Turkey instead?”

hahahahahhahahahhahh, oh man. Please tell me you’re not really this stupid…

34 maotai February 12, 2010 at 10:16 pm

Wonder how the former allied powers would feel if Germany were to enshrine the remains of top Nazi officials say Gobbels, Goring, Himmler … and the Chancellor to pay his respects annually, of course, only in his “private capacity” again of course …

35 tinyflowers February 12, 2010 at 10:22 pm

Well if you were easily duped like seouldout, you’d be fine with it as long as they “apologized.”

36 lollabrats February 12, 2010 at 10:22 pm

seouldout: “Why is Germany the example Japan must match? Why not match Turkey instead?”

This comment shows that this poster does not have a mature sense of the world. Certainly, he has an ignorant’s understanding of the relationship between Turks and Armenians.

37 tinyflowers February 12, 2010 at 10:56 pm

is a Japanese apology for things that didn’t happen a sincere apology?

Why would they apologize for things they didnt do? You’re really no different from a holocaust denier.

Even in Japan, the vast majority of people do not deny that Japan commited war crimes. You’d have to dig pretty deep in to the otaku dregs of Japanese society to find an opinion that coincides with yours.

38 dry February 12, 2010 at 10:56 pm

I don’t really follow this subject, but out of curiosity, has Japan actually said they were “sorry”, rather than use words such as “regret”? I remember reading about how the Toyota president said sorry to their customers over the recalls, and was surprised that the common “I regret it happened” wasn’t there.

39 Tom Coyner February 12, 2010 at 11:04 pm

Having lived a quarter of my life in Japan – which is about as much as I have lived in Korea, I think I may know what is really going on here.

Yes, I believe Okada and many other, younger Japanese are genuinely remorseful,as expressed in this kind of apology. But, there is also a domestic, political dimension that is aimed at the iron bureaucracies that rules much of the Japanese power structure. In this case, this apology is aimed at the Gaimusho or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

The Gaimusho, with its warped sense of sempai-kohai (seonbae-hubei) traditions, has been a major impediment in Japan rebuilding relations with the rest of Asia since 1945. Right after the war, for younger ministry officials directly or via the prime minister waffled on apologizing for what Japan had done to its weaker, Asian neighbors. To do otherwise would have been to dishonor their seniors or sempai.

Later, as this generation began retiring or dying off, the subsequent generation of elitists refused to make similar apologies, since that would dishonor their immediate and past seniors. And too do so would weaken the insidious power structure that these elite bureaucrats cultivate. And so it has continued – until maybe now.

In other words, Okada-san’s apology is as much an attack on the outdated, “Japan Inc.” bureaucracy as possibly being a genuine expression of remorse on behalf of the younger generations, including those of the Japanese “baby boomers” who often would boast in private that some of their “best friends are (Japan resident-)Koreans.”

What kind of lasting impact this will have will be determined by how successful the current Japanese administration is able to clean house of the antiquated Japanese governing power structure. Smart money is on them failing, since the power structure is so ingrained in how Japan really operates. But change inevitably happens, and this could be one part of Japan catching up with the rest of the 21st century.

40 lollabrats February 12, 2010 at 11:32 pm

@Tom Coyner

Not being there firsthand to observe the revolution of the governing structure in Japan, I rely on other people to tell me what is going on. I think it is an exciting and fascinating moment in Japanese history. But would you tell me why you think that the government restructuring will fail? Tobias Harris, the blogger of “Observing Japan,” seems to think that Finance, under the direction of Hatoyama’s government, has probably mortally wounded the other bureaucracies. In addition, the state of the Japanese economy plus the fact that Hatoyama’s ascendancy means that the bureaucracies have lost the power to gain political influence in rural areas through the granting of enormous subsidies have left them disarmed in a life-or-death political fight.

But I do agree with you that internal political strife within both Korea and Japan and the nature of diginity and honor in both societies probably have made it less likely for true rapprochement to occur between the two peoples.

But I am sure that in two decades, Koreans and the Japanese will be on largely friendly terms. After all, the younger generations in both societies are generally pushing for closer ties.

41 lollabrats February 12, 2010 at 11:36 pm

bureaucracies have lost the power to gain political influence–such as in rural areas through the granting of enormous subsidies–have left them disarmed in a life-or-death political fight.

FIXED

42 dogbertt February 12, 2010 at 11:57 pm

One thing I’ll leave on the table is: Isn’t the guy who runs Foreign Dispatches one of the biggest douchebags on the internet? Dousshh…. Is he still taking creepy pictures of models and random white people?

Co-sign.

43 JohnT February 13, 2010 at 2:19 am

Koreans will never be happy with any apology from Japan. They teach their kids to hate. Remember the school kids anti-Japanese subway pictures? Remember the pics of the little kids holding the anti-Bush pics and when you would see little kids at the Crazy Cow/anti-American protests? What do you think those kids were learning?

When will Korea apologize for the years of murdering foreign shipwrecked sailors? When will Koreans apologize sicerely for their brutality against allied prisoners and brutality against occupied populations? When will South Koreans apologize for visiting the NORK war shrine where NORK war criminals are buried whilst visiting the North? Koreans can make all the excuses that want about these things, but they are still guilty of wrong doing and can not be excused.

I far as I can tell, the only reason why Koreans wanted to apologize after Virginia Tech was because they were afraid for their saftey in the US and afraid that Americans might react like they did in 2002, it had nothing to do with sincerity on their part.

Yes, what Japan did was wrong, I agree. Don’t expect too much from Koreans, they always have to hate someone- Japan, America, English teachers, biracial Koreans- they will always cast the first stone.

44 JohnT February 13, 2010 at 3:00 am

When will Koreans sincerely apologize for this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/asianamericanartistry/message/1987

Love the “one percent” remark.

45 WangKon936 February 13, 2010 at 3:11 am

lollabrats,

You are one of my favorate commenters here. Please comment more.

46 thekorean February 13, 2010 at 3:27 am

cmm, I knew you were a fair-minded person. Thanks.

yuna,

The fundamental difference in between the Japanese and the Germans, in their after war stance lies in the difference in opinion of the majority of the people of their own government at the time. … It’s extremely hard to find anyone in Japan who think the guys who were in charge were thugs or war criminals. In fact, most of their dramas and films still depict all of them as heroes.

And there is nothing wrong with the way the current generation of Japanese view its country’s history?

One cannot force-feed uncomfortable truth, neither to the Koreans nor to the Japanese.

Why not? Germans were force-fed. White people in America are force-fed to a certain degree. It is still the truth. It must be known.

Let the Japanese come up with varying degrees of sincere deep heart-felt regret every so often. See if they will ever get to the limit of the function of actually being “sorry”.

Again with the repulsive idea that apologies somehow accumulate! There IS a limit function effect with the number of apologies: when you solve for the limit, you actually reach zero. The more you apologize but do not change your behavior, the more meaningless the subsequent apologies become.

Speaking more generally, why is this so hard for the Japan apologists to understand? (yuna, I’m not calling you an apologist — I am speaking generally here.) Have they never apologized in their lives? Have they never been in a situation where they did something very wrong, and words alone could not be enough to salvage the situation? I have a hard time believing that Japan apologists would behave this way in a regular, interpersonal setting. If they visited someone’s house and break a vase or something, they would say, “I’m sorry, let me pay for that.” Not “I regret that your vase was broken, but I brought a bottle of wine when I came here. That’s enough, right? I know you didn’t like that vase anyway.” Why do they have such a hard time acknowledging such an obvious moral obligation?

47 thekorean February 13, 2010 at 3:42 am

Actually, you know what this reminds me of? How, previous to 2004, Red Sox fans were accused of “loving to lose.” (The accusation has moved onto Cubs fans.) There were many people (particularly Yankees fans) who vehemently argued that Red Sox fans actually wanted Red Sox to lose, just so they have something to complain about and play the victim, as it were.

Of course, Red Sox has won some World Series since then, and we now see how ludicrous that argument turned out to be. Red Sox victory parade was as jubilant as any victory parade, instead of being filled glum fans who grudgingly cheered their victory while secretly ruing their right to complain.

NetKim, still think American pro sports is meaningless?

48 WangKon936 February 13, 2010 at 5:02 am

lollabrats and Coyner,

It just seems as if Japan is in paralysis. I think they need considerable change… like on the level of a “Meiji Restoration” type change in magnitude, IMHO.

All others,

Hummm… I’ve been playing with this in my head for the past few days. This appears systemic with Japanese culture. Let me explain.

Toyota and the accelerator pedal crisis:

1) Problem? What problem? If there is no admitted problem, maybe all the complaining will go away…

2) Oh, that problem. Well, yeah the accelerator pedal sticks. It’s a, ah… (insert bull shit excuse) floormat issue. Damn things get stuck on floormats! Let’s do a small and relatively silent recall!

3) Well, okay, maybe it’s not the floormats. It’s the supplier! Some small U.S. company makes the damn pedal. It’s their fault! We’ll recall the cars any ways because we are a responsible auto manufacturer.

4) Okay, It’s a design flaw. Since this involves real MONEY and not just reputation… we PROFUSELY apologize! We’ll recall 4M+ cars… we’ll keep the repair shops open 24 hours… we’ll…

Let’s take a Japanese war time atrocity. Oh, any atrocity… but the comfort women issue for this example:

1) Comfort women? What’s that? Maybe not returning the letters and phone calls of these 80 year old grannies will get them to stop.

2) Oh… those comfort women! Well, yeah… the conquered Korean and Chinese women wanted to service our soldiers. They also made a lot of money doing it too.

3) Well, yeah… I guess some bad shit happened. But, hey… it’s not our faults… it’s the fault of those damn unscrupulous brokers! And some of them were even Korean and Chinese!

4) Well, okay… that comfort women thing may or may not have happened. I guess we’ll never know, but if it did happen I’m sorry if you are still sore about it, I guess. Hey, even one of our PMs made a personal apology about it sometime in the 90′s I think.

The Rape of Nanking!… Rinse, repeat.

49 Tom Coyner February 13, 2010 at 2:33 pm

lollarats and WonKon936:

Both of you raise solid points. Not to refute anything you say, but I might add that Japan, like anyplace can and does change.

But more than most places, it takes something traumatic as the Americans (19th century “Black Ships” and 20th century atomic bombs) to shake them out of their incredibly resilient MO of gradual changes rather than radical shifts.

This is largely due to Japan arguably being the last tribal state where most people play along, largely unquestioning, even if as individuals they have their legitimate gripes.

So, political body checks to the Kazumigaseki bureaucracies notwithstanding, Japan Inc’s entrenchment is so deep and wide that it will be years until we can expect any real change beyond superficially posturing.

Now, WonKon936 has a point in that Japanese go a step or two further than most nationalities in the natural human tendency of bad news denial. However, the kaizen systems for constant QA improvements should have caught these and other problems. The open question is why they did not?

I really don’t know, but I suspect that younger generations of Japanese have not bought into a lot of the regimentation of their elders and may have not been paying as close attention to detail as once was common in Japan – a necessary requirement for kaizen.

WonKon936 is right in how blatantly the Japanese can deny the obvious. But more than many societies, the Japanese think largely in terms of how their actions and words are going to be accepted by those in their inner circles first — and can be remarkably cavalier in how little they are concerned with “outsiders,” so long as outsiders’ actions do not impact on their insider peers.

All of which leads me back to my original proposition I made a day back.

The point is, like any place else, once you get a handle on how a population tends to think, it can all make sense — even when words and actions appear to be out of sync with reality as experienced by outsiders.

50 seouldout February 14, 2010 at 6:31 am

The Japanese perpetrated cultural genocide against the Korean nation.

Bollocks. Genocide!? Utter bollocks. For the love of Christ, please learn the meaning of the word.

Exaggeration of this kind runs amok in Korea. And the reason for it? Utter shame for having been collaborators. For being the flunky. You deny yourselves your true character. Fess up: as the wind blows so goes Korea.

For most Koreans the annexation wasn’t genocide or slaughter or barbarism or starvation or even much of an inconvenience. Things didn’t really become irritating for most until the ’40s. Perversely, Koreans born after the late ’60s are the ones most damaged by the Japanese occupation, and the Japs weren’t even around. These poor kids had to memorize the BS as Korea sought to refine a national identity, shifting from the empty anti-communism of earlier days.

Exaggeration of your grievances is rather short sighted, and ultimately it will undermine your aims. So easily debunked. Once folks dig into it a bit, and find out they’ve been lied to by you, what do you think is the outcome?

Why would they apologize for things they didnt do?

That is an excellent question. Absolutely missing the irony to boot. Why do you insist they apologize for things they didn’t do?

Earlier discussions of this topic on this site have debunked the claims of forced name changes and destruction of the Korean language and culture. No need to regurgitate it.

There are a couple of things I find quite telling about the Koreans of that era that call into question the claims voiced today.

Firstly, given all the Koreans who served in the Japanese military (some as officers no less), where were the uprisings? Whoops, let me amend that: where was the uprising? Hundreds of thousands of Koreans with loaded weapons… and no revolt. Think about that for a moment. No revolt. Zippo. Zilch. Nada. Heck, the Indians revolted in 1857. The Warsaw ghetto Jews revolted in ’43 and held off the Nazis for approx. a month. And they were barely armed. Barely armed. Koreans brutalized Allied POWs. A Korean was is charge of all the POW camps in the Philippines. Death March of Bataan, anyone? Koreans popped their cherries by bayoneting Americans. Koreans were kamikaze pilots. Koreans held command positions. Koreans battled the Americans to the death on Tarawa. You can argue Korean soldiers may have not been true believers, but they were true behavers.

Secondly, the approx. 650,000 Koreans who chose to remain in Japan after WWII indicate to me that they found life in “inhumane Japan” preferable to that of the freedom of Korea. This is amazing. Our Korean friends have us believe that these folks were slaves. Sure, some were. But at war’s end they’re slaves with a right to return to their homeland. And they opt to stay put?! Are you sticking around, pawi? And you, bluejives? Their decision is even more amazing given Japan had been repeatedly firebombed. And nuked. Twice! Korea was bombed how many times during the war? Life in the rubble is preferable? Few jobs to be found in a post-War Japan, especially for those who aren’t Japanese. Food shortages, of course. Who sticks around in such a sh*t hole when they have a ticket out? The insane. And the content.

Now, a few points about your gambits. I find it offensive that you jump on the Holocaust bandwagon. Sure, the me-too argument can be compelling…when you too endured genocide. You didn’t. Not culturally, too. You don’t deserve to use it. You’re not Armenian, not Cambodian, and not Rwadan. Don’t dilute the word with your woolly-headed notions. When the us-too Holocaust claims are challenged we see other commenters frequently cite Nanjing. Nanjing is in China. The Chinese certainly endured brutality greater than that by the Koreans. There was no Nanjing-like event in Korea, no matter how you wish it so. Like the Holocaust it really isn’t proper that you use Nanjing as a vehicle to propel your gripes. Your grievances should be able to stand on their own.

Your best – and only – argument of merit is the sex slaves. Yes, a terrible crime. Yet, for some reason our Korean commenters don’t stay on point. Why is that? Could it be the post-war sex trade suggests that Koreans were active participants in procuring women? Were ethnic Korean soldiers customers?

And the end of the day Korea as a whole doesn’t pass the victim test. Certainly some, such as the sex slaves, were victimized. But looking at the totality of suffering inflicted on Korea I don’t find a compelling argument that the suffering was commensurate to that of the Jews or the Roma or the Chinese.

Appears to me Koreans were more givers than receivers. Deal with it.

51 pawikirogii February 14, 2010 at 6:46 am

wow, you really hate koreans.

feel better?

52 WangKon936 February 14, 2010 at 6:53 am

Whoa, seouldout just took something and ran with it!

seouldout, you don’t happen to be Australian by any chance?

53 tinyflowers February 14, 2010 at 7:45 am

I’m guessing seouldout got the no lube treatment by Koreans while he was there. And now his ass is in China licking his wounds, trying to rectify the situation online.

54 tinyflowers February 14, 2010 at 8:06 am

Bollocks. Genocide!? Utter bollocks. For the love of Christ, please learn the meaning of the word.

He said “cultural genocide”. Don’t intentionally misquote. It makes you look desparate.

“Cultural genocide is a term used to describe the deliberate destruction of the cultural heritage of a people or nation for political, military, religious, ideological, ethnical, or racial reasons.”

Sounds about right.

55 tinyflowers February 14, 2010 at 8:19 am

Since seouldout seems to have edumacated himself using Japanese text books:

“It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Crimes

56 Awarren February 14, 2010 at 9:21 am

No, Seouldout about nailed it on the head. Of course, if we parse his observations line by line, as someone certainly will also do to this comment, we can certainly find some weak areas, but the general gist is correct. Does his comment offend most Korean – certainly yes. Frankly what rubs some of the most, is the blatant hypocrisy. Anyone who has lived in Korea more than a couple year knows what I am talking out. If Korea had Japan’s geopolitical strength at the beginning of the 20th century and invade and conquer options—do any of us really doubt the outcome? Frankly, for many Koreans (and I am not including most of those in this discussion room since you are at least somewhat open to debate), the objective truth doesn’t matter. What matters is the “anticipated” result. If Korea wants to continue using an unfortunate period in its past for material gain, and to soothe its battered ego, then it is going to have to open itself up to some serious, soul-wrenching debate. When one is invited by Koreans to join them in a Karaoke in Tokyo, serviced by Korean prostitutes who openly pour drinks and snuggle up to Japanese clients in nearby rooms and sometimes even the same room, someone has to stand up and say WTF! When you multiply this scene on any given night in Japan by the many thousands, and realize that many Koreans simply don’t understand the revolting hypocrisy of this all, then perhaps you can understand the opinions of someone like me or Seouldout. The annuals of history (“western”) have given Korea a pretty fair shake. Japan doesn’t like this interpretation, and certainly not Korea’s provocations, but anyone who has negotiated with Koreans on any subject knows that this is the exact stance (without the finesse) that Korea would take in the same situation. Yes, Japan is certainly aiming insults at Korea, and this is something that Korea will have to work out directly with Japan. But not on the international stage where the only thing that awaits Korea is international embarrassment.

57 tinyflowers February 14, 2010 at 9:28 am

If Korea had Japan’s geopolitical strength at the beginning of the 20th century and invade and conquer options—do any of us really doubt the outcome?

Yeah a lot of people would. Particularly those of us who actually understand the cultural, social, historical, and martial traditions of the respective countries, which apparently, you do not.

Btw, paragraphs are your friend.

58 Minjokjuuija February 14, 2010 at 9:33 am

Getting members of external ethnys interested on our side in historical events involving genetic interest and continuity requires significant memetic influence, power, and control, which isn’t our strength and which we more or less lack (certainly relative to other ethnys). And even if we did possess them they would be less applicable among ethnys far removed from us.

Genocides are a constant throughout human history. The 20th century had no shortage of them. What gets deified and employed memetically through moral imprinting across various ethnys has little to do with some objective standard and everything to do with memetic control. I’m not interested in deifying Korea’s experience, making it the central event of world history, forming a religion around it, and universalizing this faith far and wide, like it has been done with other events. And I’m not interested in comparing it with other events to see how much “better” or “worse” it was, or how it “ranks.” It’s important to me because I’m Korean. It’s worth dogshit to you because you’re not Korean and as such its relevance and meaning for you is largely a function of memetics.

As for the meaning of the word “genocide,” you should learn about it from the man who coined the term, Raphael Lemkin, and who described it as follows:

“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.”

Cultural genocide is a part of the general term “genocide,” and its effects are the same as physical extermination as far as the existence of a national group as an entity is concerned. The Japanese perpetrated cultural genocide against the Korean nation, and they would have eventually annhilated the Korean nation. If the American government wanted to genocide the Amish for example, they would not have to waste a single bullet. By forcing them to attend public school, prohibiting the practice of their religion and folkways, moving them around, etc, they could implement cultural genocide and extinguish them as a distinct national group.

There are collaborators and traitors in any and every conflict or colonial relationship. There were half-Jews, Slavs, Indians, Arabs, and Blacks that served in the Nazi army. Nazi concentration camps often had Jewish guards who acted cruelly and sadistically towards the Jewish prisoners. It doesn’t tell us anything.

59 Minjokjuuija February 14, 2010 at 10:59 am

@Awarren,

All groups are hypocritical. The issue is the degree of hypocrisy and how this hypocrisy is used and how effective it is, what its results are.

Even if you grant for the purpose of discussion that Koreans are very hypocritical, or more hypocritical than average, about this, what is the effect of it? Annoying some expats who would have never even heard about Korea being colonized by Japan had they never set foot in Korea? What non-trivial gain, material or otherwise, as a result of this hypocrisy are you talking about?

The effects of Korean hypocrisy pales in comparison to the effects and power of the hypocrisies of other groups. At its widest scope, it’s an intra-East Asian issue. Who the hell outside of East Asia is even aware of Korea’s colonization, let alone cares about it? The average Westerner’s moral thinking on this period could be summed up as “Hitler was the Most Evil Man in the History of the Universe” and “The Holocaust was the Most Evil Event in the History of the Universe.” The average Westerner isn’t even aware of other genocidal holocausts and tragedies much nearer and dearer to him, such as the Holodomor. Like I said, I don’t think we should be preaching about this to groups far removed from us. There’s no point. It’s not our strength, and ultimately, there’s no reason why they should care one way or the other. Besides they’re so morally saturated and imprinted in such a specific fashion that they’re completely unaware of other terrible events much closer to them.

60 pawikirogii February 14, 2010 at 4:35 pm

wow, it’s good to see awarren is so well versed in prostitution.

figures.

61 tinyflowers February 15, 2010 at 9:42 am

That seems to be a pattern with Korea bashers. Somehow they always link everything to prostitution.

62 Robert Koehler February 15, 2010 at 10:43 am

Yeah a lot of people would. Particularly those of us who actually understand the cultural, social, historical, and martial traditions of the respective countries, which apparently, you do not.

Perhaps I don’t either, because I, too, suspect that if Korea had modernized a bit more during the Daehan Empire period, it, too, would have tried to carve out a little piece of Manchuria for itself.

Of course, Red Sox has won some World Series since then, and we now see how ludicrous that argument turned out to be. Red Sox victory parade was as jubilant as any victory parade, instead of being filled glum fans who grudgingly cheered their victory while secretly ruing their right to complain.

Red Sux fans still suck.

63 tinyflowers February 15, 2010 at 10:52 am

I, too, suspect that if Korea had modernized a bit more during the Daehan Empire period, it, too, would have tried to carve out a little piece of Manchuria for itself.

Perhaps they would have. I don’t like hypotheticals. But even the worst case (reasonable) scenario is still a far cry from what Japan actually ended up doing.

To suggest that the outcome would have been the same, as awarren did, is far off the mark.

64 thekorean February 15, 2010 at 11:27 am

given all the Koreans who served in the Japanese military (some as officers no less), where were the uprisings? Whoops, let me amend that: where was the uprising? Hundreds of thousands of Koreans with loaded weapons… and no revolt.

Ok. There have been hundreds of thousands of North Korean soldiers with loaded weapons and no revolt in 65 years. So things must not be all that bad in North Korea. You should cross over, Robert Park-style, and remind the North Koreans how great they have it.

65 WangKon936 February 15, 2010 at 12:16 pm

it, too, would have tried to carve out a little piece of Manchuria for itself.

Oh, I don’t doubt that for a second. Their rationale would have been better us than the Russians. But I don’t think they would have tried to invade China.

Hundreds of thousands of Koreans with loaded weapons… and no revolt.

seouldout, I’m not so sure of it was “hundreds of thousands” of Koreans that were armed. Most Koreans in the Imperial Army were laborers or some other sort of non-combatant. I don’t know if the Japanese would feel very comfortable with a Korean armed. Not just for the reasons of trust, but also probably their belief that Koreans were not good troops.

But even if that was true, I bet if you put all those hundreds of thousands of Koreans all in one place, then there probably would have been a revolt. But the Japanese were smarter then that. I doubt there was a brigade or even a division of solely Korean troops.

66 WangKon936 February 15, 2010 at 12:19 pm

* I mean, I don’t think they would have tried to invade China outside of Liaoning.

67 lollabrats February 15, 2010 at 12:23 pm

@seouldout

“where were the uprisings? Whoops, let me amend that: where was the uprising? Hundreds of thousands of Koreans with loaded weapons… and no revolt. Think about that for a moment. No revolt. Zippo. Zilch. Nada. Heck, the Indians revolted in 1857. The Warsaw ghetto Jews revolted in ‘43 and held off the Nazis for approx. a month. And they were barely armed.”

This is wrong on so many levels. Most of the large-scale uprisings were put down between the late 1890s and 1910. The Japanese sometimes completely burned down and massacred entire villages and also assassinated the relevant royal leadership involved in resistance, including the Queen, as well as prominant scholars. F.A. Mckenzie, author of “Korea’s Fight for Freedom,” documenting at the time, recounts:

“In June, 1908, a high Japanese official said that about 20,000 troops were then engaged in putting down the disturbances, and that about one-half of the country was in a condition of armed resistance.”

Matt, the blogger of “Gusts of Popular Feeling,” says that by 1910, 17,000 insurgents of the Righteous Army had been killed. This figure does not take into account the non-combatants killed.

After 1910, with its formal annexation, the Japanese were able to completely consolidate its new holdings on the peninsula. As a result, the various insurgent movements were forced out of the peninsula and they ended up basing themselves in Manchuria, from where they waged guerilla war. There were protests, too, though only one was massive or well organized–3.1, which resulted in 7000 killed in reprisals throughout the peninsula. Throughout their occupation, whether Koreans engaged in peaceful protests or armed insurgency, the Japanese tended to respond with massacres or pogroms. Many protesters and insurgents were also forced into slavery or were imprisoned where they were tortured.

One of the key weaknesses of the resistance movement was that it was profoundly fractured. It was not just that the royals themselves were fractured in how to deal with Japan, it was that other groups rejected the royals entirely along with the Japanese. And then there were the Communists. This meant that the Koreans would not be able to mount a united effort. Another major weakness was that the Korean emperor” was a damnably silly joke figure of historical proportion–the worst guy to have on the throne at the worst time. And yet, no matter how Koreans felt about him, his abdication must have been a demoralizing shock to the people. This all probably made Korea easier to annex than it might have been. Still, by this time, Japan was armed with one of the greatest armies and navies in world history and the successful domination of the weaker Korea was inevitable.

“Secondly, the approx. 650,000 Koreans who chose to remain in Japan after WWII indicate to me that they found life in “inhumane Japan” preferable to that of the freedom of Korea. This is amazing….Few jobs to be found in a post-War Japan, especially for those who aren’t Japanese. Food shortages, of course. Who sticks around in such a sh*t hole when they have a ticket out? The insane. And the content.”

We should also not forget that Korean Japanese were also subject to violence and murder simply because of the fact that they were Koreans. But to say that the fact that they have remained in Japan proves that their experience was not that bad is pretty lame. This conclusion could only be made by ignoring the social factors and realities involved in most kinds of migration, voluntary or otherwise. If we take extreme examples, we could ask why the Jews and the Romani of Asia have remained in Europe after experiencing centuries of large scale pogroms at the hands of the Christians and right-wing groups. We could also ask why African-Americans have remained in America after centuries of slavery and pogroms. Certainly, the Sakhalin Koreans and the Koryo-sarams of central Asia experienced murderous hardships. Something like half the Koreans forcibly relocated by Stalin died or were killed pretty early. And yet, we continually see that migration is “sticky” by nature. There are many complex reasons why this is so, some of which you can figure out on your own without picking up a scholarly book. The point is that the mere fact that a large number of Koreans have remained in Japan only lets us imagine the scale of the sum of forced relocation and voluntary migration the Koreans experienced under Japanese colonial rule. It does not say anything about the “comfort” of their stay.

Also, although it is correct to say that Japan was bombed flat by the Allies, to say that, therefore, the situation in Korea was necessarily better is questionable. Despite having to default on their sovereign debt, the Japanese were still much wealthier than the Koreans, largely because of the scale of the looting and enslaving they perpetrated across Asia. Furthermore, the Korean peninsula was widely seen as a likely theater of war in the near future, after Japan’s surrender. Indeed, war broke out merely 5 years later. This war completely devastated and impoverished the peninsula. In a recent article, Professor Andrei Lankov wrote that South Korea became the poorest nation in Asia–having an even lower income per capita than Papa New Guinea. Whatever Korean infrastructure remained with Japan’s surrender in Korea was largely lost as a result of the war–Korea, too, ended up being bombed flat.

For Japan, however, the Korean War was a boon. America began to invest heavily in Japan to build up Japan’s infrastructure to accomodate the UN war effort and to build up Japan to serve as bulwarks against Communist expansion. A decade later, South Korea experienced a similar boon when America began to invest heavily in the ROK for their joint war efforts in Vietnam and also as an incentive for Korea’s participation.

“Your best – and only – argument of merit is the sex slaves. Yes, a terrible crime. Yet, for some reason our Korean commenters don’t stay on point. Why is that? Could it be the post-war sex trade suggests that Koreans were active participants in procuring women? Were ethnic Korean soldiers customers?”

It seems you are the one who is not staying on point. Nobody is saying that there are no Korean prositutes or pimps. Prostitution exists everywhere. Only a fool denies this. Certainly, prostitution has always followed large armies stationed in foreign lands. It should be no different with the Koreans. But your attempt to take this obvious reality and try to diminish the severity and scale of forced sex slavery by the Japanese war machine is morally indefensible.

Also, to say that the Koreans have only one grievance against the Japanese reveals much more about yourself than it does about history.

“Now, a few points about your gambits. I find it offensive that you jump on the Holocaust bandwagon. Sure, the me-too argument can be compelling…when you too endured genocide. You didn’t….You don’t deserve to use it. You’re not Armenian, not Cambodian, and not Rwadan.”

I have no idea who you are addressing, but I don’t see where anyone made such a claim of genocide in the above posts. You seem to be confused on the issue and angry for no reason.

“Earlier discussions of this topic on this site have debunked the claims of forced name changes and destruction of the Korean language and culture. No need to regurgitate it.”

“Firstly…the Koreans…served in the Japanese military (some as officers no less), A Korean was is charge of all the POW camps in the Philippines. Death March of Bataan, anyone? Koreans popped their cherries by bayoneting Americans. Koreans were kamikaze pilots. Koreans held command positions. Koreans battled the Americans to the death on Tarawa. You can argue Korean soldiers may have not been true believers, but they were true behavers.”

Although I am a new and outside observer of Korean society and new member of the MHole, I find it highly questionable that anything was actually debunked by the denizens here. First of all, posters on this site do not offer good, let alone conclusive, analysis on anything. I certainly do not. And neither do you.

Now, to say that a systematic colonial assimilation of Koreans into Japanese culture was not taking place is absurd. The fact that the attempt has largely failed should be attributed to the fact that Japan’s formal direct control over Korea lasted only 35 years, which is hardly enough time to finish such a complex social engineering task.

The constant complaint among Japanese right-wingers is that everything was voluntary. Koreans moved to Japan and Manchuria voluntarily. They changed their names voluntarily. They joined the imperial army voluntarily. The slave-laborers worked voluntarily. The sex-slaves worked voluntarily. Plus, it is a true fact that there was a minority of Koreans who wanted Japan to “fix” and modernize Korea. All this makes some people find Japanese right-wing revisionist propaganda compelling.

But, there are complex reasons to find their complaints suspect.

We must begin with the constraints on the type of economic activity allowed Koreans. The result of these constraints was that, even though Japan spent an enormous amount to modernize Korea, nearly all the wealth and benefits went to Japanese citizens and most of the local resources went to Japan. In fact, the very purpose of modernizing Korea’s infrastructure was (1) to facilitate continental warfare, (2) to facilitate the exploitation of resources and food on the continent for transport back to Japan, and (3) to create an incentive for Japanese to migrate to Korea. Even where Koreans were allowed to participate in a market, Koreans often faced discriminatory regulation, which made it very difficult, if not impossible, to compete with Japanese business. The following is described in the scholarly work, “Korea Under Japanese Rule:”

“Virtually all industries were owned either by Japan-based corporations or by Japanese corporations in Korea. As of 1942, Korean capital constituted only 1.5 percent of the total capital invested in Korean industries. Korean entrepreneurs were charged interest rates 25 percent higher than their Japanese counterparts, so it was difficult for Korean enterprises to emerge. More and more farmland was taken over by the Japanese, and an increasing proportion of Korean farmers either became sharecroppers or migrated to Japan or Manchuria. As greater quantities of Korean rice were exported to Japan, per capita consumption of rice among the Koreans declined; between 1932 and 1936, per capita consumption of rice declined to half the level consumed between 1912 and 1916. Although the government imported coarse grains from Manchuria to augment the Korean food supply, per capita consumption of food grains in 1944 was 35 percent below that of 1912 to 1916.”

With further restrictions on how Koreans were allowed to be educated and gain job skills, the Koreans were often forced to choose between, on the one hand, “voluntarily” moving to Manchuria and Japan, changing their names, joining the army, or otherwise voluntarily collaborating one way or another and, on the other hand, impoverishing one’s entire family. That’s a tough choice for any parent to have to make, especially at a time when, as a natural consequence of being largely an agricultural society, families tended to be large.

Japan was then pretty sensitive to world opinion. They wanted to be recognized as a world power, but, as China is today, they didn’t like that the Americans and Europeans kept complaining about their frequently brutal treatments of the peoples they conquered. There was much more than pride at stake. Japan largely depended on staying on the good side of America and Europe to import energy resources–particularly oil, which they lacked and which they imported from America. And so, they often invited select American journalists and dignitaries to “witness” their benevolent rule of Korea and Manchuria. I suspect that this sensitivity was one of the major reasons which caused the Japanese to develop strategies to make the world think that the Koreans were largely accepting of their Japanese rulers. And I guess that there are still people out there who actually can fall for such obvious lies. I suppose people really do believe that the Korean Emperor felt honored to hand over his throne to Japan and marry off his children to Japanese. I suppose people out there do actually believe there never was any brutality or discrimination, for which Koreans never felt the need to rise up against or protest. I suppose that there are people out there who actually believe that the Koreans saw the Japanese as the enlightened liberators, who modernized Korea for the sake of the Koreans. I suppose no Korean ever pleaded with the outside world to condemn the Japanese and help restore sovereignty. I suppose that no Korean ever took up arms against these benefactors. I suppose that there never was any compelling reason, other than enlightenment, to cause Koreans to change their names, speak Japanese, move to a foreign land (where they never experienced brutality or discrimnation), and fight on behalf of the great emperor. I am sure all of this somehow just makes sense. Only Koreans, of all the peoples of the world, could have seouldout. Of course. Certainly, nobody else would have. Right?

As an outside observer, I have the opportunity to be impartial. So, I can see why the collaboration issue is sensitive for Koreans. But honestly, I think the way the Koreans collaborated with Japan, including in its brutality in committing war crimes, is, ultimately, understandable because it is common. For one thing, the sense of the word, “collaboration,” as used in this context, was coined centuries ago. In fact, I can’t think of any case in history where such a thing didn’t happen in similar circumstances, in which a foreign power annexed a nation through military conquest. One of the immediate losses in the conquered nation is the traditional bonds and hierarchies, which ruled society previously. And any good imperial nation could use some local thugs for hire to keep the local dissidents quiet. I’m sure you can find a couple thousand such dregs in any society of millions. It wouldn’t be a surprise to see some of them end up as some of the worst criminals of WWII. But just as with the Germans and Japanese, some of the Korean POW prison camp guards were just young kids who were put into positions of great power and learned to use it to brutalize people. In a Hankyoreh article attempting to humanize one of these guards, Lee Hak-rae, who had his death sentence commuted to 20 years, the reporter writes:

“Lee said that there were few who welcomed him upon his release. His homeland viewed him with suspicion as a pro-Japanese collaborator, and the Japanese ostracized him for his Korean ethnicity. Thus, his struggle continues to this day. ‘If only for the sake of my fallen comrades,” he said, “I hope that our honor will be one day restored.’”

As a poorly paid teenager, this guy, who was not smart enough to get out of grade school, learned to slap wounded POWS for not obeying him, even though Allied doctors at the prison pleaded with him not to order wounded POWs to work in deadly conditions. I have no idea what kind of honor he hopes to reclaim for himself and his comrades.

But he lived 60 years of the rest of his life being rejected by Koreans and made to feel like a man of compromised honor. I don’t see how the Koreans ostracizing Japanese collaboraters being proof that Koreans are hypocritical.

Or maybe it is the fact that Manchukuo veterans ended up taking over and ruling the ROK has got you feeling bitter. But of course they would have. After all, they were really the ones with the most skills in governance. This is an important point. As Professor Han Suk Jung writes in his article, “On the Question of Collaboration in South Korea:”

“Koreans gained valuable technical and managerial experience in government, army, the Kyowakai (the fascist party aspiring to link government and people), and police, as well as in the hospitals and factories of Manchukuo. This differs greatly from the experience of most of the Koreans who migrated to (or studied in) Japan during the colonial period, the majority of whom were confined to jobs as manual workers there. Manchukuo was a land of opportunity not only for Japanese but also for Koreans. These “Manchurians” possessed comparative advantages in the quest for power and position in postliberation Korea, where a power vacuum emerged following the departure of Japanese rulers.

The necessary condition for the employment of their talent was U.S. hegemony, which was established in South Korea after liberation. [2] South Korea was very different from North Korea, where landlords and pro-Japanese collaborators were eradicated or fled to the South. Nationalists, particularly those who emerged from the anti-Japanese resistance, were not welcomed into the South Korean administration, Army, or police force built by the occupying U.S. forces. A special committee set up under the new Korean congress in 1948 to investigate the activities of those who had worked for the Japanese empire was suppressed by the U.S.-backed Syngman Rhee government, particularly by the Korean police whose higher echelons were largely staffed with ex-colonial police. It was disbanded within half a year.”

Of course, the only reason the Manchukuo veterans had those skills in the first place, whereas, non-collaborators largely lacked these technical and managerial skills desired by the Americans was because non-collaborators were necessarily denied the necessary opportunities during the colonial era. And after Park Chung Hee successfully turned Korea into an economic phenomenon, the Manchukuo vets could finally defend themselves once the truth became understood by the general public. Contrast this, with the American’s de-Baathification campaign, which was reaffirmed later by the Constitution of Iraq. The result is that no Baathist will ever be granted any opportunity to contribute to the political process and prove his competency. The purge made the ensuing insurgency more deadly for everyone in Iraq. However, the Americans made it easy for the Iraqis to punish Ba’athists, even though many joined the Ba’athists because that was the easiest way to get real work and learn professional skills. However, left to their own wishes, peoples tend to punish known collaborators, not set them up to rule. You can see by the actions of the DPRK, which systematically purged Japanese collaborators. The Communist Koreans relished punishing known and suspected collaborators. Had the South Koreans been given the same opportunity, of course, they would have done the exact same thing. They hated the Japanese! However, MacArthur’s prerogative was clearly to shorten the time for the reconstruction and set up South Korea as a credible defense against the spread of Communism. And so, just as he made the controversial decision to protect Hirohito from prosecution for understandably practical reasons, the Americans made it inevitable out of practical concerns that the Manchukuo veterans and the colonial police thugs would end up in places of power in the new ROK. The result is that, unlike the North Koreans, the South Koreans ended up having to deal with, on the one hand, the psychological dissonance of admiring Park Chung Hee and, on the other hand, the people who sympathize with right-wing Japanese, who have had to deal with this ill-treatment for more than 50 years.

68 thekorean February 15, 2010 at 12:47 pm

That’s the thing about stupidity. It is so easy to be stupid, but takes so much effort to correct stupidity. Lollabrats, that was a tremendous comment, but I am afraid it is wasted upon seouldout.

69 tinyflowers February 15, 2010 at 12:59 pm

I don’t think that was meant for seouldout. He’s just a useful idiot. To show how morally reprehensible the Japanese apologists truly are.

70 Arghaeri February 15, 2010 at 1:08 pm

“Most Koreans in the Imperial Army were laborers or some other sort of non-combatant.”

Wnagkon, genuinely interested, whats the basis of this assertion. I’ve never seen such before?

71 WangKon936 February 15, 2010 at 1:16 pm

Arghaeri,

Good question. Unlike lollabrats, I don’t have the wealth of sources he has cited. Having said that, documentation in languages other than Korean and Japanese are probably very scarce. From the U.S. materials I’ve read, it appears direct and circumstantial evidence would support this. I recall reading in several places that most of the Koreans that the U.S. captured in its island hopping campaigns were non-combat personnel of the Imperial Army (laborers, porters, cooks, drivers, etc.)

It sounds like a good PhD thesis subject for someone…

72 WangKon936 February 15, 2010 at 1:53 pm

Also, to further comment on what lollabrats said, I also have to say that whatever the Japanese did in Korea and how they governed it must be studied in the context to their greater plan to first, catch-up with the West, to conquer China, to grab critical resources in South Asia, fight the U.S., etc. No one can have a proper understanding of the governance and colonialism of Korea without acknowledging and understanding Japan’s greater strategy of dominating East and South Asia, particularly during the Showa era.

One must remember that Japanese brutality in China and Japanese brutality in Korea and their mistreatment of Koreans are linked. If there was not complete trust in Koreans to bear arms in large scale, then they must at least trust them to carry shovels, picks, operate machinery, serve in brothels, etc. Every Korean in a Japanese factory or mine means that there is one more Japanese who can carry a rifle or man a gun on a ship. The Japanese also used Allied prisoners of war to operate mines and do labor. Same rationale. Every non-Japanese that operates in industry means one more Japanese to fight a Brit, Chinese or an American in the war theater of operations.

Japan’s war in China was extraordinarily brutal. To conquer a nation as large and populous as China is a very difficult operation for any nation. It was a war much like Vietnam where there was extensive use of irregular as well as regular forces by the Chinese. It was several tens of times bigger than the Vietnam War so the atrocities committed were obviously several tens of times (if not more) bigger. But it was also a huge resource drain on the Japanese. They had to essentially attack the resource rich colonies of the British, Dutch and French to support their war in China… but now I’m bird walking.

A lot of these Koreans who were conscripted to fight and work (mostly) all around Japan and the Japanese empire never got home. The ones that were killed many times their families were never given proper notification of their deaths (or “missing” status). I once read a book titled “East to America” where they interviewed a pioneering Korean American journalist, K.W. Lee, who was a teenager in 1945. He was actually coming back from Japan to Korea and when he came off his ship he saw thousands of people waiting for him and many were shoving pictures into his face asking him if he had seen any of their loved ones. They had not heard from them in months, years, etc. It was a tremendously moving experience for him and Lee said that such images he will stay with him for the rest of his life.

73 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 12:14 am

The silence from the Japanese apologists is deafaning…

74 seouldout February 16, 2010 at 1:56 am

@lollabrat

What a write up. Lots of supposin’. Quite a digression; you really didn’t address my two main points. 1) Hundreds of thousands of Koreans in the Japanese military, and no revolts. No assistance rendered to Allies. Allies brutalized. Koreans convicted of war crimes. There’s no denying the samil movement by me here. An unarmed schoolgirl is tough. Armed men… not so tough. Not in Korea, at least.

2) 650,000 Koreans chose to remain in Japan. I didn’t say they stayed there for the fun and games; I’m pretty sure I pointed out the hardships. But I believe their decision to stay is very significant. You call this fact “lame”. That’s one heckuva compelling rejoinder.

Sticking with the we-too-are-a-holocaust-people theme you liken Koreans remaining in Japan to the Jews, Roma and African-Americans. It’s a leap too far. I don’t find your examples relevant. Being separated by many centuries neither the Jews nor the Roma had “homelands” to return. (No, I’m not denying the importance Israel was and is to Jews.) Moreover, they didn’t have the benefit of the mighty US military to guarantee their safe transit back. (Of course, once the Jews were able to mobilize we didn’t see one third of them sticking around in continental Europe, did we?) Again, these peoples were separated from their ancestral lands for many centuries. This is not to say that they didn’t yearn to return, but they would have returned as strangers. And as minorities. We certainly know the Palestinians didn’t offer a big welcome back to the neighborhood house-warming basket of goodies.

Though a few African-Americans chose to return to western Africa, given the many years removed from their ancestral cultures, and in most cases not even knowing their origin land and tribes, I am not surprised that very few opted. No shared language, religion, culture, food, history, etc. They only thing they had in common was the color of the skin, and that alone doesn’t get you a hearty welcome home.

In contrast, 1945′s Koreans in Japan had a homeland which to return. A land where they still were the majority. Most, if not almost all, knew the taste, touch, sound and smell of it. They still retained their language, history and culture. Koreans in Japan had immediate and extended family in known hometowns to return to. Koreans in Japan still had strong, intimate bonds to Korea. So, why stick around with lousy Japs in radioactive rubble?

I have nothing to say about the Sakhalin and Central Asian Koreans because Stalin made sure they weren’t returning. Of course, at the end the Cold War Seoul made sure they weren’t returning, too. How’s that for irony, eh?

@wangkon, perhaps very few Koreans were under arms. You reckoned a brigade perhaps? That’s a few thousand soldiers. Over 200k ethnic Korean soldiers, and you surmise 2% or so were combatants. Really?

@thekorean. You’re absolutely correct. We see no uprising by armed North Korean soldiers. Could be that flunkyism again. Or could be they’re true believers. Or somewhere between.

Lastly, there’s no doubt some Koreans suffered, and some prospered. Like every other conquering power Japan imposed its system on the conquered. And Koreans, willing and not, served her master. Was Korea’s experience unlike other conquered peoples? Nope. Was it the same as the Jews and the Roma? Nope.

In closing I’ll quote tinyflower’s quote:

“It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops.”

Your list of victims is missing one.

Thanks for the laughs, chums.

75 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 2:12 am

What a write up. Lots of supposin’. Quite a digression; you really didn’t address my two main points. 1) Hundreds of thousands of Koreans in the Japanese military, and no revolts. No assistance rendered to Allies.

Korean Liberation Army

Korean Mutiny in the Japanese Army

Korean Provisional Government Declares War on the Axis

Korean Independence Movement

Do you ever get sick of being wrong?

76 pawikirogii February 16, 2010 at 2:16 am

i appreciate lollbrats very informed response but it was a mistake to respond to soldout because that’s his intention. this kind of stuff excites him. look around the net, not many agree w him. he’s just farting in the wind. please don’t feed him again. let the ugly white dude think what he wants. he got vomited out of korea, now he needs revengs. let him wallow.

77 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 2:18 am

@wangkon, perhaps very few Koreans were under arms. You reckoned a brigade perhaps? That’s a few thousand soldiers. Over 200k ethnic Korean soldiers, and you surmise 2% or so were combatants. Really?

Wow really? You can’t really be this dumb.

Here is what wangkon actually said:

But even if that was true, I bet if you put all those hundreds of thousands of Koreans all in one place, then there probably would have been a revolt. But the Japanese were smarter then that. I doubt there was a brigade or even a division of solely Korean troops.

78 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 2:24 am

@pawi,

We’re just using him to illustrate the historical ignorance and moral depravity of Japanese apologists.

79 thekorean February 16, 2010 at 2:26 am

@thekorean. You’re absolutely correct. We see no uprising by armed North Korean soldiers. Could be that flunkyism again. Or could be they’re true believers. Or somewhere between.

Ok. So years later when Kim Jong-Un tells North Koreans that things really were not bad under his grandfather and father, I hope you are ready to tell that message to the millions of survivors of 고난의 행군. (But hey! Millions survived the massive, Kim Jong-Il-caused famine! So the famine must not have been that bad!)

80 pawikirogii February 16, 2010 at 2:32 am

well ok, but giving this guy more than a few lines is what he wants. i’m sure he was hard as a rock seeing all the commotion he caused. the guy couldn’t survive koreans, why waste time on such a weakling?

anyway, have a good day, tinyflowers.

81 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 2:36 am

Though a few African-Americans chose to return to western Africa, given the many years removed from their ancestral cultures, and in most cases not even knowing their origin land and tribes, I am not surprised that very few opted. No shared language, religion, culture, food, history, etc. They only thing they had in common was the color of the skin, and that alone doesn’t get you a hearty welcome home.

I guess you’ve never heard of Liberia. There were more than a few returnees – enough to make a nice little English speaking nation on the West coast of Africa, where they DID share a commmon language, religion, culture, food, history, etc.

So going by your twisted logic, I guess the ones who chose to stay behind actually didn’t mind their 400 year of enslavement?

82 seouldout February 16, 2010 at 2:47 am

You’re quite stupid. Liberia is exactly what I was speaking of. These former slaves only shared a common language, cltlure, etc. with each other, not with the much larger indigenous African community. Koreans returning to their homeland were unlike these returning slaves.

83 seouldout February 16, 2010 at 2:51 am

Nope, I’m going to tell them a thing. They’ll still be locked up, ruled by a gov’t they deserve.

84 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 2:56 am

I totally agree with you pawi. People like soldout are bottom feeding scum not worth my time.

But the more he posts here, the worse it gets for the apologists. He’s not doing Japan any favors with his representation. Japanese employ people with IQs at least in the double digits to spread their propaganda.

So basically he’s just a useful idiot for discrediting Japanese positions with minimal effort. I think I’ll keep him.

85 lollabrats February 16, 2010 at 3:01 am

@Seouldout

“In contrast, 1945’s Koreans in Japan had a homeland which to return. A land where they still were the majority….So, why stick around with lousy Japs in radioactive rubble?”

Korean War. Political purges. Extreme poverty. Lack of services or jobs. Unstable government. Stigma of being suspected Japanese collaborators. Vigilante reprisals. High violent crime rate associated with Korea being a dysfunctioning society and failed state, with no legitimate heir to the Choseon authority. Having already set up roots in Japan. The cost of relocating back to Korea. Lack of housing. Brutal winters. You got me. I have no idea why people would find it difficult to move back to Korea.

I encourage you to read my above statement again.

“Hundreds of thousands of Koreans in the Japanese military, and no revolts. No assistance rendered to Allies. Allies brutalized. Koreans convicted of war crimes.”

“….Do you ever get sick of being wrong?”

I think the problem here is that you simply have not read enough.

86 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 3:05 am

It’s hilarious to see Tinyflowers keep linking to Wiki, a source that many US middle and high school kids can’t list as a reference in a research paper since schools consider it unreliable. Wiki’s breadth of coverage makes it useful in identifying unfamiliar people, places, and things, but it really shouldn’t be used to support a viewpoint on a controversial issue. The reference links at the bottom of a well-documented Wiki entry may provide stronger backing by attributing facts and figures to recognized and respected scholars and organizations.

87 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 3:10 am

You’re quite stupid. Liberia is exactly what I was speaking of. These former slaves only shared a common language, cltlure, etc. with each other, not with the much larger indigenous African community. Koreans returning to their homeland were unlike these returning slaves.

No one would know it from reading your piss poor description of a “few” Africans with no shared language, religion, culture, food, history, etc going back to Africa.

Oh but wait! What you REALLY MEANT to say is that they didn’t share those things with the greater African community! HA! do you realize how many languages and cultures there are on the African continent? No one group can share a common language or culture with the “much larger indigenous African community” you ignint maroon.

That’s like saying that only a few Koreans returned to Korea because they didn’t share a common language, religion, culture, food and history with the much larger Asian community.

88 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 3:11 am

Sonagi, by all means feel free to correct any inaccuracies in the wiki articles I linked to.

89 seouldout February 16, 2010 at 3:22 am

Korean Mutiny in the Japanese Army – “We had a plan!”

Korean Provisional Government Declares War on the Axis – C’mon. Didn’t really contribute much to the war effort. Certainly the assistance proved to Japan by Korean greatly outweighed that given by Korean to the Allies.

Korean Liberation Army – “However, the aspiration of the KLA to play a significant role in the liberation of Korea from Japanese occupation was not fulfilled, as Japan unconditionally surrendered to the allies on August 15.” Damn Jap trickery, foiled again.

It’s often woulda, coulda, shoulda. They had the potential. They aspired.

Keep magnifying the pebbles whilst ignoring the boulders.

Off to bed.

90 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 3:33 am

From the header on the Wiki page on the Korean Liberation Army:

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve the article or discuss these issues on the talk page.
It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve it by citing reliable sources. Tagged since November 2009.
It is missing citations or footnotes. Please help improve it by adding inline citations. Tagged since November 2009.
It does not have a lead section. Tagged since November 2009.
It is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. Tagged since November 2009.

From the text:

From its humble beginnings with an officer corps of 30 men at its foundation in 1941, the KLA grew to a substantial force with almost a thousand in active service by the end of the war.

In 1945, the KLA was working in cooperation with the US Office of Strategic Services to train men for specialist military operations within Korea. The leading units were due to depart on August 20, with General Lee in command. However, the aspiration of the KLA to play a significant role in the liberation of Korea from Japanese occupation was not fulfilled, as Japan unconditionally surrendered to the allies on August 15. Three days later, a helicopter carrying twenty-odd members of the KLA landed in Seoul, only to be forced back by the Japanese military, which refused to surrender until USA military forces arrived.

A WHOLE THOUSAND (1,000!!!) KLA soldiers ready retake the peninsula! And 20 KLA officers prepared to accept a humble surrender from the Japanese, who apparently laughed them off while waiting for the real victors to arrive. No need to disprove those underwhelming facts. Did you even bother to read those Wiki entries before you linked to them, Tiny? Source FAIL.

91 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 3:34 am

It’s hilarious to see Tinyflowers keep linking to Wiki, a source that many US middle and high school kids can’t list as a reference in a research paper

Get real. This ain’t no school research paper.

92 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 3:34 am

From the header on the Wiki page on the Korean Liberation Army:

This article has multiple issues. Please help improve the article or discuss these issues on the talk page.
It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve it by citing reliable sources. Tagged since November 2009.
It is missing citations or footnotes. Please help improve it by adding inline citations. Tagged since November 2009.
It does not have a lead section. Tagged since November 2009.
It is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. Tagged since November 2009.

93 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 3:39 am

Is that all you got soldout? Well at least you’re getting an education.

Remember when you said this:

Think about that for a moment. No revolt. Zippo. Zilch. Nada.

You sounded so sure of yourself. I’m glad you’re coming around to admitting your historical ignorance.

94 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 3:41 am

The text of the Wiki page on the KLA notes that the army grew to 1,000 soldiers (yes, you read that right – GREW to 1,000) by the end of the war and that a helicopter full of 20 KLA officers got laughed off by the Japanese, who waited to surrended to the real victors, the Americans. Thanks for sharing that Wiki source, Tiny. I learned a couple of interesting new facts today.

95 pawikirogii February 16, 2010 at 3:54 am

why are you picking on tiny? at least he’s quoting sources. is it because with pukedout?

96 yuna February 16, 2010 at 4:00 am

While wiki may or may not be accurate, it is the first easy source, (and in English) to point out the existence of such matters to those who’d never heard of such things and therefore ask dumbo questions like “why don’t the exist?”, no?

97 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 4:01 am

Sonagi, that was just one of many armed resistence movements.

Here’s a list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_independence_movement#Military_groups

If you simply refuse to accept it because it’s wikipedia. Well, I’d say that’s pretty closed-minded of you.

98 pawikirogii February 16, 2010 at 4:01 am

you agree w

99 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 4:05 am

Good point yuna. If I was primarily discussing a subject with an educated person like Sonagi I probably wouldn’t use Wiki.

But as a response to a mental deficient like pukedout, wiki is probably too good.

100 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 4:08 am

One of his sources, the Wiki KLA entry, proves that the Koreans, for whatever reasons, did not put up a significant armed resistance to the Japanese. I honestly had no idea that the KLA was so small. While Manchukuo was controlled by the Japanese, the mixed Chinese, Manchu, Korean, and White Russian population was largely hostile to Japanese rule, so the KLA was operating among sympathetic locals.

101 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 4:17 am

If you simply refuse to accept it because it’s wikipedia. Well, I’d say that’s pretty closed-minded of you.

Wiki itself is not an authoritative source, IMO. The value of each entry rests upon the linked references. Some of the Wiki entries you linked to have substantial and varied references. The KLA entry was flagged by Wiki because it has ZERO citations. In plain English, anonymous people compiled that entry. With no references to back up statistics like the 1,000 members of the KLA, the Wiki KLA entry is as authoritative as an anonymous comment left on this blog thread.

102 NetizenKim February 16, 2010 at 4:26 am

#74
Secondly, the approx. 650,000 Koreans who chose to remain in Japan after WWII indicate to me that they found life in “inhumane Japan” preferable to that of the freedom of Korea. This is amazing. Our Korean friends have us believe that these folks were slaves. Sure, some were. But at war’s end they’re slaves with a right to return to their homeland. And they opt to stay put?! Are you sticking around, pawi? And you, bluejives?

My name raised in vain once again by once of the usual suspects.

Maybe the reason why I wasn’t one of the 650,000 Koreans who didnt return to Korea at the end of WW2 was because of the small fact that I wasn’t BORN YET, moron.

103 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 4:37 am

Sonagi, just skip that one then. The two other wiki articles are not tagged and have plenty of references. But you’re saying even the article with 108 references isn’t good enough for you simply because it’s wiki? So what are you saying? No more wiki links allowed on this site? Give me a break. I’m not one of your students and it’s common practice to link wiki articles in forums and blogs. It happens on this site all the time. Never seen you get catty about it before.

104 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 4:44 am

Nothing catty about meeting your challenge to examine your sources in comment #88, Tiny.

105 thekorean February 16, 2010 at 4:47 am

Sonagi,

The fact that you are generally so reasonable makes your occasional bouts of querulousness even more puzzling.

106 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 4:48 am

I asked you to correct any inaccuracies that you found in those articles.

You didn’t find any inaccuracies.

You simply rejected the whole notion.

107 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 4:53 am

tk, it’s ok I’m bored.

108 pawikirogii February 16, 2010 at 5:03 am

‘even the jew put up a fight in the ghetto.’ pukedout

yet 6 million were slaughtered w ease.

109 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 5:08 am

Yup. For whatever reasons, they did not put up a significant armed resistance to the Nazis at all.

110 NetizenKim February 16, 2010 at 5:10 am

pukedout is saying “if Japan was so bad then why didn’t Koreans go back to their own country?”

If you ask an angry expat if Korea is bad then why doesn’t he simply go back to his country, he’ll pull a hissy fit.

The hypocrisy of the expats knows no bounds.

111 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 5:13 am

http://japanfocus.org/-Kiriyama-Keiichi/3151

Everyone should check out this story about the Korean mutiny. It’s a good read.

(except you Sonagi. This is merely a first person account and is therefore unacceptable for a school research paper)

112 pawikirogii February 16, 2010 at 5:13 am

‘If you ask an angry expat if Korea is bad then why doesn’t he simply go back to his country, he’ll pull a hissy fit.’

yep, seen it many times.

113 Sonagi February 16, 2010 at 5:17 am

You’re right, Tiny. You only asked me to find any inaccuracies, and I went beyond the scope of your challenge to point out an unreferenced source. 1,000 KLA soldiers? Woohoo, no need to bother disproving that unreferenced statistic.

I’m not going to check the references on the other Wiki pages because I don’t believe Seouldout’s exaggerated? claim which prompted the slew of Wiki links in comment #75. I agree with much of what has been written in rebuttal to Seoulout’s posts. However, you used a worthless source that ironically seems to support the idea that Koreans didn’t put up much resistance, and now you’re sputtering because I called you on that. I’d respect you more if you’d just admit that Wiki KLA page sucked and that you didn’t even bother to check it out before linking to it.

114 NetizenKim February 16, 2010 at 5:27 am

Why ignorant waeguks like pukedout who never even heard of Korea much less taught in school back home insist on being verbosely opinionated about Korean history despite their obvious bias and shallow reasoning is beyond me. What the hell does someone like pukedout know about what life was like for a Korean under Japanese occupation anyway.

Pukes like him should stick to what they know best such as how there’s a whorehouse on every corner in Korea (Korean prostitution being a topic that every expat seems very knowledgeable and keen on), how he got molested by a drunk ajossi in the street, or how every Korean guy is an asshole who is out to cock-block his pasty white ass.

115 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 5:44 am

I’d respect you more if you’d just admit that Wiki KLA page sucked and that you didn’t even bother to check it out before linking to it.

Actually I did read the article and didn’t see anything controversial about it. Yeah it sucks that it’s not referenced, but it’s not like they’re just making shit up. Sure the KLA didn’t exactly kick ass but a peasent army against tanks and planes? What outcome did you have in mind?

Besides, that was just one of many resistence groups. No one here is pretending that there was a massive sustained insurgency. They were small groups and they were usually put down quicky. There were no great battles, no glorious victories. Just countless small massacres, most of them lost to history.

And I actually disagree with your initial point vis-a-vis the reliability of wikipedia as a source. You said:

Wiki’s breadth of coverage makes it useful in identifying unfamiliar people, places, and things, but it really shouldn’t be used to support a viewpoint on a controversial issue.

I don’t see the existence of the Korean resistence movement as a controversial issue at all. In fact, it’s pretty well established history. Even the Japanese acknowledge them.

The fact that some ignorant people are unaware of its existence does NOT a controversy make.

Overall, wikipedia is a great resource for history buffs.

116 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 6:17 am

Why ignorant waeguks like pukedout who never even heard of Korea much less taught in school back home insist on being verbosely opinionated about Korean history despite their obvious bias and shallow reasoning is beyond me. What the hell does someone like pukedout know about what life was like for a Korean under Japanese occupation anyway.

LOL. It is pretty funny if you think about the situation. And pukedout doesn’t even live in Korea anymore! He got the boot long ago and is now sucking the teet of the CCP. But I guess he never really left since he’s always here with the same song and dance routine. Typical expat behavior – hates Korea but can never let it go.

117 WangKon936 February 16, 2010 at 6:27 am

The KLA was more of a gesture or symbol rather than a real fighting force. There were probably more Koreans indirectly fighting for Korean independence through the Chinese Nationalists or various flavors of the Communists.

seouldout,

You either misunderstood what I wrote or you deliberately misconstrued it. Neither are very good conclusions for you.

118 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 7:00 am

Yeah they are kind of a joke. I only included it because it was the official army of the provisional government. They weren’t nearly as effective as the guerilla forces operating out of Manchuria.

119 WangKon936 February 16, 2010 at 7:28 am

Another thing to remember regarding Koreans staying in Japan after the war. There were as many as 4.5 million Koreans in Japan during the peak war years.

Yes, about 700k of those stayed. You have to remember, Korea was an unsettled place immediately after the war… the South was ruled by someone not all Koreans were comfortable with, plus the Communists had control of the North. I’m sure many Koreans in Japan wanted to go back to northern Korea, but weren’t sure if they wanted to go back to a nation under Communist rule.

Plus, one must remember that there was considerable fighting in the South and the border area even before June 1950. Both Kim Il Sung and Syngman Rhee vowed to conquer one another. Artillery exchanges, guerilla warfare, etc. Where would these Koreans in Japan go? Unsettled governments, political infighting and talk of war. After June 1950 thoughts of returning to Korea for those people was virtually impossible for obvious reasons.

120 dogbertt February 16, 2010 at 7:45 am

If you ask an angry expat if Korea is bad then why doesn’t he simply go back to his country, he’ll pull a hissy fit.

Except when they do.

I’d ask the same of you — if the U.S. and us white men are so bad, why the fuck are you still here toiling for The Man? You could go back and be a big man in Korea with all your knowledge of the Korean language, history, etc. … lol

121 lollabrats February 16, 2010 at 8:13 am

@seouldout

“What a write up. Lots of supposin’. Quite a digression; you really didn’t address my two main points.”

You made more than two points, actually, and I responded to them all. The fact that you are now throwing away those other points says much about those points. I will now answer your “second” point. For a third time. The Sakhalin Koreans and the Koryo-Sarams are not being barred from returning to Korea today. The Japanese have even offered free fare for the Sakhalins. And everytime one of them returns, Korean TV news document the scene of the returner’s arrival. That’s what happened recently, when an old married couple tearily left their adult children and friends behind to return to the ROK. Yet, they have largely not done so.

And so you admit that Israel was important to the Jews. And yet they did stick around in Europe for thousands of years. You say that it was dangerous to return because the local Arabs would not like it. And yet you completely ignore the fact that historically many many more Jews have been killed by Europeans than by Arabs.

Their return to Israel is actually a fascinating instance of large-scale migration. But I don’t know why you think that they needed America’s “protection” to return. America acknowledged Israel, but in the ensuing wars with the Arabs, the Israelis defended themselves pretty much by themselves, armed largely with non-American weapons.

“No revolts. Allies brutalized. Koreans convicted of war crimes.”

I have sufficiently responded to these points.

“1) Hundreds of thousands of Koreans in the Japanese military, and No assistance rendered to Allies”

What do you mean by “Allies?” And what do you mean by no assistance? If, by “Allies,” you are referring to America and allied Europe, the fact is, they were not much of a factor in Manchuria and Korea. And without much outside support, anti-Japanese, anti-Communist Koreans were not as big a factor as the Communist Koreans were.

After the annihilation of the Righteous Army finally forced Korean resistance fighters and terrorists out of the peninsula, the remnants became profoundly fractured and scattered and they became involved in all kinds of wars in the region, but always with the aim to fight Japan. During the Russian civil war, a large contingent of Communist Koreans fought for the Soviets against an interesting alliance, which included czarist Russians, czarist Koreans, Japanese, and Koreans fighting for Japan. After the war, Lenin practically betrayed these Communist fighters and their numbers got hammered in Manchuria.

Other Communists joined with the CCP. The CCP was a serious threat to Japan since their formation. Moreover, Kim Il Sung apparently was an effective guerilla fighter and skilled manager, who was singled out by the Japanese as a priority target.

There is no doubt that many thousands of Koreans died fighting the Japanese all over northeast Asia.

By the way, how do the actions of hundreds of thousands of Koreans speak for 10s of millions?

122 WangKon936 February 16, 2010 at 3:23 pm

During the Russian civil war, a large contingent of Communist Koreans fought for the Soviets against an interesting alliance, which included czarist Russians, czarist Koreans, Japanese, and Koreans fighting for Japan. After the war, Lenin practically betrayed these Communist fighters and their numbers got hammered in Manchuria.

The obvious result of a people who don’t have a country anymore. A tragedy in all senses of the word and something that should (with any luck) never happen again.

123 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 7:37 pm

You made more than two points, actually, and I responded to them all. The fact that you are now throwing away those other points says much about those points

Bravo lollabrats. pukedout will probably respond again with the same points that have repeatedly been disproved by you and others. Some people just cannot integrate new information that does not support their biases.

124 tinyflowers February 16, 2010 at 7:47 pm

Reading the last part of this thread I can’t help but visualize Sonagi prowling the aisles of a classroom with a ruler in hand, ready to smack down any student who gets out of line.

125 Arghaeri February 16, 2010 at 8:18 pm

“yep, seen it many times.”

Pawi, kind of curious how you managed to *see* this many times from your vantage point acroos the pacific ocean? ;-)

126 Sonagi February 17, 2010 at 12:19 am

Reading the last part of this thread I can’t help but visualize Sonagi prowling the aisles of a classroom with a ruler in hand, ready to smack down any student who gets out of line.

I don’t want to think about where your hands are when you visualize this.

127 tinyflowers February 17, 2010 at 12:34 am

Oh you dirtaaayyy :)

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