I thought about just doing an update to this posting, Blackboards, Pianos and Schools, but I think it is too interesting and needs to be made into an entirely new post. Obviously I have been somewhat bored lately but I actually came across this subject (Vietnam and Korea) due to some research I am doing on Korean history. It has long been speculated or suggested that the residents of Jeju Island were not of the same stock as the mainland Koreans and some circumstantial evidence points to their origin as being SouthEast Asians but reading Nguyen Van My’s article in Thanhnien News really surprised me:
“In the old days, Vietnamese people always loved their homeland wherever they went and whatever they did. The children of princes of the Ly Dynasty (1009-1225) went to Korea centuries ago, but their decedents, who have headed such giant companies as Booyoung Construction and Golden Bridge Finance Group, have all returned to Vietnam to proclaim great love for their fatherland. They still teach their children that they are Vietnamese.”
How can Mr. Nguyen Van My claim that these highly respectable Koreans were actually Vietnamese? Forbes Magazine.
“Sang Jun Ly - the chairman of Golden Finance Group, which is winning business in Vietnam by underwriting the privatization of state-owned companies–sees this dynamic playing out. “China is a big country, and they think that they are the center of Asia,” he says. “The problem is that Japan and Korea don’t recognize it as the boss.” Because of his name, Ly has an easier time than most getting a foot in the door in Vietnam. He says he’s a descendent of Vietnam’s Ly dynasty, which expelled Chinese invaders and united the country a thousand years ago. The Ly clan was toppled in 1226 and some of the survivors escaped to Korea.”
Who is this Mr. Sang Jun Ly? According to TinNhanh.Com:
Mr. Ly Tuong Tuan (Ly Sang Jun) was born in 1958 in Seoul, South Korea. He experienced a difficult childhood. Ly Tuong Tuan special love philosophy, social science subjects and to learn about art composed. In 1978, he graduated from the University of Seoul, Faculty of Natural Resources Natural Sciences. In 2000 he founded and is the chairman of Golden Bridge Finance Group and is the founder of the HanViet Foundation in Seoul. Golden Bridge Finance Group seems to be doing quite well.
Apparently, however, Mr. Ly Sang Jun is not the only Korean with a Vietnamese past. In fact, the more you look into this the more fascinating it becomes.
Korean President Syngman Rhee claimed to be of Vietnamese origin.
Ly Hi Uyen, is a 31st generation descendant of Prince Ly Long Tuong . In 1226, Prince Ly Long Toung and more than 6,000 family members, mandarins and servants sailed in three large boats from Vietnam and arrived in Korea. King Kojong of Goryeo (Koryo) is alleged to have dreamed of their coming and welcomed them. When the Mongols attacked in 1232, Prince Ly, mounted on a white horse, and his fellow villagers helped to defeat the invading Mongol army. From that point on he was known as the “White Horse General.” When the Mongols attacked again in 1253, Prince Ly, already in his 70s, once again led his fellow villagers to victory against the invaders. When he died he was buried near Panmunjeom.
Ly Chang Kil also claims to be of Vietnamese royal blood and said he is the 35th descendant of the Vietnamese King of the Ly (Vietnam) Dynasty. I have quoted extensively from the article but note that there seems to be some conflicting information concerning the prince and kings….so I have linked to the different pieces and will let you, the reader, decide.
“According to the family’s annals, the ancestor of Ly Tinh Thien family is Prince Ly Duong Hoan, the son of King Ly Can Duc. After a business trip to China and Korea, the prince decided to settle down in northern Korea. However, Vietnamese and South Korean historians say that the ancestor of Ly Tinh Thien family is Prince Ly Duong Con [Prince Ly Long Toung - see above], the younger brother of Prince Ly Duong Hoan, who was an adopted son of King Ly Nhan Tong. In 1150, naval admiral Ly Duong Con and his family went to Korea by boat to avoid being killed in the fight for the crown at that time. Ly Tinh Thien is the combined name of family name Ly and the name of the place where Prince Ly Duong Hoan settled down. The Ly Tinh Thien family has been living in South Korea for more than 900 years. During this trip back to their home country, three members of the Ly Tinh Thien family, Ly Chang Kil, Ly Man Su and Ly Chul Sik, expected to witness the changes in their home country and to meet with and collect more historical documents about their ancestors to supplement their family annals. Ly Chang Kil said he is trying to gather members of the Ly Tinh Thien family to set up a separate association of Ly Tinh Thien family and invest in some projects in Vietnam. So far, many descendants of the Ly family in South Korea have returned home to do business, for example Ly Xuong Can and Ly Tuong Tuan. In the future, Ly Hi Uyen hopes to have projects invested in by the Ly family. The Ly family in South Korea has around 3,600 members.”
Li was being modest in that article because this article claims that there are about 4,000 Ly family members in Korea and ”many of them are successful businessmen and they all want to invest in Vietnam.”
Yes, I know the title was a little misleading but…….
{ 34 comments… read them below or add one }
Do the Vietnamese pronounce the last name “Ly”, as in “Lie”, or do they pronounced it as “Yee” (like Koreans do)?
Neither. The Vietnamese surname “Ly,” also spelled “Le,” is pronounced like the surname “Lee.”
Well… what’s the Chinese character? That should answer it.
Ly, Li, and Yi share the same Chinese character, 李. I was mistaken about the Vietnamese surname Le, whose character origin is 黎.
Is this part of an organised strategy by Korea to become a gentler, kinder alternative to China and Japan in developing Asian countries ?
Ever read Walter Skeat’s introduction to Piers The Plowman?
And then read “Piers the Plowman”? Which was like what? 600 years ago? And then listen to all this bullshit about 1253?
Fucking 1253!!!!
You’re talking about 1253?!! In Korea? I want to see the translation work.
The Hwasan Lee family clan number around 4000 today. These are the descendants of Ly Long Tuong who sailed for Koryo. Syngman Rhee when visiting South Vietnam in 1957, reportedly told the local South Vietnamese press that he was a descendant of Ly – according to the Vietnamese. But Rhee was not part of the Hwasan clan. If the report is true, he probably was doing some PR work in Vietnam.
@ #7:
Hi cm,
Could you spell “Syngman Rhee” in Korean if you can? Thanks.
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I remember having read a newspaper article in one of the Korean newspspers, DongA, Joseon, or Jungang (동아일보, 조선일보, 혹은 중앙일보).
Almost the same story: Some Vietnamese Royal people came to Korea in the time of Goryeo kingdom era (고려 왕조, 918-1392), bravely fought against Mongolian invaders at that time, and were acknowledged by the King. They became the originator of Hwasan Yi (화산 이씨) and the written Chinese is 李 as “Sonagi” said @ #4 above.
@ WangKon936,
A bit off topic, though.
Writing my comment above just gave me a question: is your ID referring to the First King who established Goryeo kingdom, Wang Geon (왕 건)? Especially because 936 was the celebrating year for the Kingdom that it completely united all the transitional Later Three Kingdoms (후삼국) right after the United Shilla (통일 신라).
p.s. Of course, you don’t have to answer. It’s an online ID. The question naturally comes to any Koreans, I guess.
#8, it’s 이승만.
To Mr. Neff,
“Korean President Syngman Rhee claimed to be of Vietnamese origin.”
President Rhee (이 승만 대통령), the first President of South Korea, was very well known for his origin: Jeonju (전주 이씨), which had been the royal last name of Yi, Kings of Joseon era.
I read sometime ago in a newspaper article that the political opponent of Presdient Rhee, Kim Gu (김 구), had had a life-long inferiority complex towards Rhee due to his last name of royal origin. In contrast, Kim Gu (last name, Kim)’s origin was rather common. [There are many different origins for last name, Kim.]
*** However, Kim Gu’s life, set in such a tumultuous era, reminds me of sort of “Che Guevara”. A nice stuff for any film makers/directors ~
p.s. 1. “Yes, I know the title was a little misleading but…….”
The title was so very much misleading: A bunch of people came to Goryeo era, when most of Korean people had been already so well established…for such a long time…
p.s. 2. However, I usually enjoy reading your posts…
@ #10,
Thanks, cm.
New genetic research seems to claim that many Koreans migrated up from South-East Asia through India into China, Korea and Japan.
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/12/12/200912120027.asp
( ancestors of today’s Asian populations arrived first in India before migrating to Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines. From there, it suggested groups traveled north, mixing with the populations already living in these regions.
This accordingly suggested the ancestors of Koreans, Chinese and Japanese to be the latest to settle in East Asia. The study also revealed no meaningful genetic differences between the three ethnic groups, which together make up 1.5 billion people. )
But congratulations to those successful people with Vietnamese origins..
Going back somewhat earlier – the Goindol builders (at least the Southern style, e.g. most JeollaBuk and JeollaNam goindol) – one theory has them settling in Korea by sea-born migration from SouthEast Asia.
Anyone clued up on this?
belair, you are right.
Regarding the Korean Herald article linked in “# 13″:
I try to be as accurate and balanced as possible in expressing my opinions.
(1)
“The analyses proposed a model in which ancestors of today’s Asian populations arrived first in India before migrating to Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines. From there, it suggested groups traveled north, mixing with the populations already living in these regions.” (From the above-mentioned article)
Please note the phrase, “mixing with the populations already living in these regions”. The degree and scope of “mixing with the already living in these regions” are not specifically known yet: considering the geographical location of Korea, Koreans possibly have more to do with the Northern (or Central) Asians.
*** I am just as curious as my Chinese friends: they told me they even distinguish Northern Chinese people from Southern Chinese within themselves, for a long time, even in terms of languages. Certainly, there was a mix. I’ve heard from all the Chinese people in my entire life: Koreans look more like Northern Chinese (than the Southern).
(2)
I believe that most South Koreans know the myth about last name Kim with the origin of Kimhae (김해, 김해 김씨): The King of Gaya kingdom (가야) with the last name originated from Kimhae married a princess from India. Since Gaya kingdom was an early one [it precedes Shilla kingdom], I believe there as a certain influx from South-Eastern Asia.
*** The myth was also documented. And there are other origins for the last name, Kim. All “Kim” do not have the same origin.
(3)
Another historical fact:
Also, a series of Kings in Goryeo kingdom (1274-1351) married princesses of Mongol Empire: starting from the daughter [Princess 忽都魯揭里迷失)] of Kublai Khan married King Chungryoel (of Goryeo) in 1274. The princess was also called and documented as “제국대장공주 장목왕후(齊國大長公主 莊穆王后, 1259 ~ 1297)”. BTW, Kublai Khan was the grandson of Genghis Khan, so the royal intermarriages were just there. Yup, Goryeo was defeated by Mongol Empire and had to marry the Princesses….
*** I simply wrote Princess 忽都魯揭里迷失 in honor of her native language, Mongolian. Even Chinese pronunciation of it does not correctly reveal its true linguistic origin. I believe all languages around world are precious because they reveal distinct yet common (and cognitive) intuitions of human beings.
(4)
I read a few of newspaper articles that a princess of Baekje (백제) married a king of Japan early in Three Kingdom era. Japanese newspapers ignored it – with the exception of Asahi newspaper – even when Japanese king himself announced it.
*** Genetically, historically, and linguistically there was a certain connection – to a degree – between Korea and Japan. Yet, I don’t care too much about some Japanese’s denials, anyway. My attitude is, “well, the truth will come out sooner or later, one way or another. Just wait.” Today’s science works for Korea’s claims even when (we – exclusive “we”) South Koreans may not be aware of it. Besides, we have a bigger fish to fry, i.e., China.
*** So far, I rather show both South-Eastern Asian connection and Central (and maybe Northern) Asian connection to Korean people that were already recorded in Korean history.
(5)
“This accordingly suggested the ancestors of Koreans, Chinese and Japanese to be the latest to settle in East Asia. The study also revealed no meaningful genetic differences between the three ethnic groups, which together make up 1.5 billion people.” (From the Herald article)
Let me draw an attention to “no meaningful genetic differences between the three ethnic groups”. I believe these three are genetically much closer than other groups within the broad range of ancestors, which a more refined future research can reveal in more detail.
(6)
And, Linguistically.
However, even among the three…. (Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese), there was big differences between Chinese language and Korean, especially in terms of syntax: an important linguistic point which should be considered, with the same importance, along with the genetic research. It’s to some degree up to open interpretations: maybe in extreme cases Central Asians dominated from the early time in Korea (as a minority, but as a ruling class), subjecting SE Asian groups (?).
*** BTW, on the most basic level, Korean language shares similarities with Japanese as S-O-V structure attests. There have been plenty of articles that have researched similarities and subtle differences between the two, published in the most academically acknowledged linguistic Journal around the world.
*** Korean and Japanese: S-O-V [subject - object - verb order]
Korean and Chinese: S-O-V vs. S-V-O [subject - verb- object]
*** Considering the S-O-V structure vs. S-V-O, it had simply been so very, very inconvenient and impractical for Korean people to use “written Chinese”. Regardless of anything and everything…, someone had to do something about it, REALLY. That is why I respect King Sejong. Other Kings did not even care… it was easier for Kings to rule when people had no written system except for a bunch of ruling aristocratic people …. [An interesting parallel to Medieval Europe... when the Bible was not available in "written" vernacular languages for some time]. However, King Sejong cared about his people and invented “written Korean” for them. I remember the King for his big heart. Very egalitarian.
(7)
Considering other aspects as such, I am rather waiting for more comprehensive researches from genetics, linguistics and history (and any other) than saying “the origin of Koreans ….” based on a single piece of info.. The article suggested a big picture and I appreciate the link: I learned something today. But sometimes a few trees in a big forest can differ [especially when the forest is too vast...] or can be more leaning towards “mixing with already living people in these regions”.
*** My apologies for a rather long comment.
Oh, my…
For two days I thought I recovered for the time change… happily enjoying the daylight..
Today, I just woke up and … it was already late afternoon.. fraking jet lag… so ended up writing comments…
Correction:
in #16:
(3)
“Also, a series of Kings in Goryeo kingdom (1274-1351) married…”
should be changed to
” Also, a series of Kings (1274 – 1351) in Goryeo kingdom (918 – 1392) married…
This must be a very dumb question as it has not been asked so far in these comments to Neff’s `interesting’ article but, in that Herald article, roughly when did these people migrate from India, march through S.E. Asia, cross our peninsula and wind-up in Japan?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeosa http://japanese.jeju.go.kr/contents/index.php?mid=030103&pno=0201
according to History of Goryeo,their origin is … three Japanese queens got marry with gods of Jeju in their myth
高麗史地理誌(第57巻)
I’m sure I posted this before in an open thread – from the same study :
In terms of the three North East Asians: Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese
The HUGO study says, taking the difference between Asians and Africans out of 100 points, as a standard:
Chinese and Koreans are different by 5.03.
Koreans and Japanese are different by 4.23.
Chinese and Japanese are different by 6.99.
Koreans and Europeans are different by 58.2.
Here is the full article in Science:
“If the report is true, he probably was doing some PR work in Vietnam. ”
I once knew a guy (he’s now deceased) who claimed his father was his personal doctor. Morphine was mentioned.
East Asian royalty started with Koreans?
Jin, Qing founders all originated from Korea, even Japan’s current emperor admitted his Korean origin, early Japanese royals came from Silla-Gaya-Baekje royalty blood lines. Some Yuan and Ming Dynasty emperor had Korean mother (virtually half Korean).
Now, with this only survival royal clan of Vietnam from Korea is changing the perception of Koreans in Asia. Btw, that Hwasan Ly clan of Korea is over 90% Korean by now with more than 30th generation.
According to Wiki, there are two Viet-based clans in Korea, both from about the same period: the earlier is based in Jeongseon, Kangwan Province and called, in fact, the Jeongseon Lee Clan while the other is the Hwasan Lee Clan starting in 1226 in Onjin of Hwanghae Province. The former must have been held in very low esteem by Koryo to be shunted off to such a remote place!
Jungseon Lee clan wasn’t Viet origin according to this.
http://www.surname.info/i/jeong_seon.html
It says Jeongseon Lee is originated from Song Dynasty.
Whether from Song, China or Vietnam, Jeongseon must have been a pretty harsh situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_people_in_Korea
@ #20:
Hi hoihoi,
(1)
You put two links there… (well, don’t remove them after I’ve written this comment). The first link is in English and does not show any myth (??): please be specific.
I’d like to save the two links above but I’m technically challenged…
That’s why I am asking again: please do not remove two links, please.
(2)
The second one… [1] I see some written Japanese (??) … and some written Chinese …. [2] regarding Jeju (?? why ?? WHY Jeju and Goryeo together … ??? REALLY WHY ???)….and [3] … a… “myth”…….. but all these three factors together….
Please forgive me, everyone, for a few seconds…
“????????????????????????????????????????”
Clueless.
(3)
If there is anyone who has some basic knowledge about Goryeo kingdom, they understand why I am …
(4)
Again, I wrote somewhere else:
I neither disrespect nor respect Japan.
(5)
Well, even the Japanese King officially said “A princess from Baekje married one of our previous kings and we are her descendants”, every Japanese newspaper ignored “their king” speaking …, except for Asahi newspaper.
I hope Japanese people deal with their facts first.
But, even if they don’t, I do not care too much about it, anyway.
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If there are any Gyopos (Korean-Americans) who are genuinely interested in Goryeo in terms of ancestry, I will do my best in presenting a bit of facts, upon their requests. Then, Gyopos can see why I am so clueless. Unless, I’ll not…
From #20: “according to History of Goryeo,their origin is … three Japanese queens got marry with gods of Jeju in their myth”
“Jeju in their myth…”
I sigh … again … Jeju… (Jeju??)… yeah… Jej….. Je……
I sigh again…
Three princesses or queens weren’t Japanese, they were Ruykyu people/Okinawans.
@ #29:
Hi Koreansentry,
Your comment leads me to guess there could be some mis-translation involved in the link @ #20 –
Again, even if this is just a myth, your comment #29 would make more sense, considering “Japanese history and their Genes”.
Still, this myth is so questionable for many reasons…
Thanks anyway.
Hello, Koreansentry,
The three `princesses’, according to the accompanying emissary (who suddenly flew away on a cloud), were gifts of the `ruler’ of 벽랑국. Will you indicate your source that states 벽랑국 was the Ryukyus?
@ #31:
Hi mazef,
I just googled ByeokRang kingdom “벽랑국” and found a related myth of Jeju Island presented in OhMyNews. [I can't link it 'cause I don't know how to.]
Thus, it seems to me your suggestion has at least some ground.
The myth says about three princesses and their marriage to three gods: but, still, no mention of Goryeo at all.
I do not find any connection to Goryeo in relation to the myth, whether the mis-translated japanese, Ruykyu people or ByoekRang States (벽랑국).
Thanks anyway.
p.s. I hope that the Jeju Island officials carefully look into some mis-translations on their website.
Hello, Belair,
No, Cheju’s Founding Myth/Legend has absolutely nothing to do with Koryo except as a mention in an historical reference which was written some 100 years after the fall of Koryo to Yi. Over the years, many have endeavored to place 벽랑국 and Koreansentry’s claim that it was the Ryukyu Kingdom was startling – and therefore my quest for a hard source.
@ #33:
Thanks a lot, mazef. That’s what I thought and wrote in my comment @ #27.
Some myth in Jeju Island related to Goryeo kingdom in terms of mythical ancestry to Goryeo’s early Kings….. seems so unheard of.
A historical reference, like 100 years after Goryeo’s fall (to Joseon kingdom), certainly differs from a myth.
At this point, (according to either you or Koreansentry), it really looks like the link in #20 could be some misunderstanding based on mis-translation.
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