Well, at least that’s what it kind of looks like in the drawing:
New Yorkers! Say hello to your new Korean Cultural Center!
Although the Korean government has purchased the lot, building has not started yet, but the design and planning process has. The winning design was submitted by SAMOO Architects PC and incorporates a glass see-through facade to ”entice” passerby New Yorkers to enter with visible displays of Hangul, hanboks and celadon. Seriously, I’m not making that up.
(Photo Credit: inhabitat.com)
{ 115 comments… read them below or add one }
Yay! Another reason to visit 32nd St!
When WK isn’t pimping Korean tacos, he’s pushing glass burritos. I smell a MEXIKOREAN plot!
Why are Koreans so obsessed with pushing Korean ideology and customs onto New Yorkers?
The full-page NY newspaper advertisements (dokdo & bibimgap) and now the glass-see-through cultural center…
Why is it so important for New Yorkers to adopt Korean culture?
How dare anyone ridicule this building! “Inhabitat” tells us that its “design will save the world.” That’s surely nothing to ridicule.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
But I admit that the design could be spiced up a bit. I like a spicy burrito.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
I’m thinking the urge to proselytize developed through the introduction of Christianity had a little something to do with it.
In that case then more buddahs and less hub.
Why is Victoria’s Secret so obsessed with pushing up breasts and buttocks of New Yorkers?
The full-page NY newspaper advertisements and now the glass-see-through store on 35th street…
Why is it so important for New Yorkers to adopt the lift-and-separate bras?
slim,
My excuse is that I live in Southern California, where non-Hispanic Caucasians ceased being the majority some time ago…
What’s with the separate bit? What’s happened to pushing them together for cleavage.. Is there a plan for a highway in between?
Yuna!
Those are not questions that a girl with anything more than a B cup would ask!
아이쿠야, 나 이거 흥분되서 미치것네…유나씨, 아무래도요, 내 뿌리는 양반쪽이 아닌것 같구만요.
Depends on the top. A tight crewneck or turtleneck calls for a brassiere that lifts and separates. Save the push-up bra for cleavage-baring v-neck sweaters and shirts.
Because unless they are validated by outsiders, particularly Westerners, they have no conviction in the inherent value of these things temselves.
No stupid, it’s just that they’re really used to exporting stuff, and at some point decided that they weren’t going to stop at *material* things. Duh.
Your daily vocab lesson: refund gap.
Sperwer,
I think you might misunderstand Koreans’ intent here. Koreans like to “push” things not because they require validation from outsiders, but because they in fact value them very much, so much to a point where they are pushing them. Similar to Westerners and Christianity and Democracy. They don’t push them forward because they want the brown man to “validate” any of it. They are already convinced that Christianity (pre-20th century) and democracy are the best things since sliced bread, hence their aggressive exportation of it to the hinderlands.
Koreans honestly think hangul, hanbok and celadon are great, wonderful and beautiful things. In my opinion Korean ceramics is pretty cool. I think the hanbok is ugly, but I know the Marmot’s opinion differs. Any ways, Koreans think these things are so great, from their perspective, that they think with enough exposure that other people will think it’s great also. Now, this thinking is squarely wrong in my opinion, but it’s apparently not stopping them.
WK, your breath is wasted on a closed mind.
How one gets from this building to burritos to tits is what makes MH great, but getting back to the SAMOO design, this thing is awesome. Would only that these kinds of buildings go up in Seoul as they do elsewhere!
Make no mistake: this is destination architecture. Very hep, man!
DLB
if the japanese can do it, so can koreans. the upper class lady hanbok is, in my opinion, beautiful. the mens’ stuff not so. however, that hat is so distinctive, it should be used to brand korea.
btw, no korean needs the aproval of someone like sperwer.
‘WK, your breath is wasted on a closed mind.’ thekorean
word.
Let me try a middle-of-the-road take on Korea’s cultural exports:
I agree with WK that Koreans think Korea is wonderful* and they want to share this wonderfulness with the world. To a certain extent, Koreans believe they are doing everyone in New York City a huge favor by bringing bipimbap to the masses.
However, I also think part of the drive to do this is nationalistic egotism. Korean’s don’t simply want to brighten everyone’s day: they want to brighten everyone’s day and leave them thinking “Wow, Korea is wonderful.” Without that last part, honestly, I don’t think Korea-in-general would be going to so much effort. It’s not enough that the masses enjoy bipimbap: they must enjoy it, and have that joy linked in their minds with Korea.
* I should add for the most part, I think Korea is wonderful, too.
Can we in New York be obsessed with Koreans wearing Victoria’s Secret?
Too bad you weren’t around when that wasn’t the case — you might have liked it.
‘Too bad you weren’t around when that wasn’t the case — you might have liked it. ‘
agreed but i would point out that koreatown was a wasteland ghetto before the koreans got there.
dogbertt, I generally like you, but your racism really puts a damper on things.
WK, the two motivations are not mutually exclusive. All you have to do is look at a week’s worth of Korean newspapers and nightly news, with their flood of stories about every obscure kind of ranking or list involving anything Korean, coverage of western media coverage of anything Korean, masturbatory self-congratulation and back-slapping when the ranks are high along with hand-wringing when they’re not, and complete obsession with covering every small story, broadcast, or mention of anything Korean anywhere in the world to know that Sperwer is in fact correct.
Yes, Koreans think hangul, hanbok and celadon are great, wonderful and beautiful things. But let’s face it, most Koreans think (and have been taught to think) that everything Korean is great, wonderful, and beautiful…simply because it’s Korean in origin. This is why most westerners in Korea just start to tune out the blind nationalistic valuations they’re bombarded with, because when everything is so special and uniquely wonderful, then nothing is.
IHBB,
On the contrary, the harshest, vilest and most uncontrolled criticisms of everything Korean come from Koreans themselves. Try reading one of the Naver “discussion” boards on any subject.
Western invalidation of korean culture does *not* mean koreans see no inherent value in korean culture. That, um, almost sounds like a tautology of some sort, but anyway, wow, do I really have to spell this out for you?
dogbertt,
I just wanna find a decent German restaurant in this town. Seriously.
LA is a place where the Louisiana BBQ spot will close down and the Sushi eatery will take its place. It’s a place where the Chicago Hot Dog spot will close down and the Yogurt/Gelato store will sprout in its place.
And oh, I lived in Norwalk, CA when it was a working class white neighborhood. I have the elementary school year books to prove it!
‘Try reading one of the Naver “discussion” boards on any subject. ‘
how would he do that?
True enough, but the equivalent of the Korean bathroom wall is hardly representative of how Koreans represent their culture to westerners. In fact, it’s quite the opposite.
You might try listening in on any random conversation between any Korean and any non-Korean on the topic of Korean culture, and the odds of you hearing any of those harsh, vile, and uncontrolled criticisms are roughly the same as hearing praise being heaped on anything Japanese. Nil.
‘Korean newspapers and nightly news, with their flood of stories about every obscure kind of ranking or list involving anything Korean, coverage of western media coverage of anything Korean’
well, you do the same thing except in reverse. you just linked to a story about some guy in a wheelchair though the only relevance to this board is the guy has a korean last name.
when you going to tell us what happened to you in korea?
but that’s where the failure of government and the mainstream press comes in. not the national character.
have you never experienced it? your korean friend, after the obligatory hanbok and kimchi talk at two lunches in a korean restaurant telling you what’s in the guide book, from the third meal (with soju) launches straight into what’s wrong with the country – that usually it’s his friend the foreigner who ends up defending korea to him, saying “come on it’s not that bad” ?
it’s 애증 – that’s their character – the good side, the bad side, they like talking about it. they are interested in their own, your own, where you come from, how it compares, what you think…all characteristics of a young fledgling which it still is relatively in terms of being on the international stage. after a while it will subside. and it will be hard to get them to talk about it.
As for craash’s orignal question, while I think taking out ads in the NYT is silly, it’s hard to put having a cultural centre (or a nice building for it) in the same bracket.
I just hope they put it to a good use, and not have a beautiful space like that sit idle for bland cultural events and text-book-correct, middle-of-the-road exhibitions, as I have seen in cultural centres in other cities.
On the inside Koreans are extremely critical of themselves, their country, their society, etc. Why do you think the suicide rate is so high? Why do you think so many Koreans fly off to the U.S., Canada, Australia? It’s so bad sometimes Koreans make shit up to complain about… literally.
So why all this nationalistic bravado up front? Well… Koreans care very much about how others think/perceive them. And Yuna is right… once he goes through all the standard tourist brochure bull shit about the four distinct seasons, most scientific language, first iron clads, etc. if he considers you as a close buddy he will go on and on about how shitty the government is, how much better the Japanese are (and yes, even his respect for them), how poor/disgusting the country is etc. Some of you guys have Korean wives, right?
America is an important country. Europe is an important continent and Western civilization is important to the eyes of a Korean. They care how important things think about them. It’s rooted in neo-Confucianism… putting your best foot forward or whatever you wanna call it… and in the mind of a Korean hangul, celadon, *healthy* kimchi and hanboks is putting your best foot forward.
Also, Koreans have a misunderstanding of why Westerners find the Japanese interesting. They clearly envy the attention Japan gets from the West and they want the same kind of adoration as quickly as possible. However, in my opinion the West isn’t all that interested in the kimono, sushi, teriyaki, origami, etc. in itself. Do you think sushi would ever have been popular in the U.S. if Americans didn’t have to eat it during high end business meetings with Japanese executives? Cultural things become interesting because the nation in itself becomes elevated in importance, then you find an interest in it’s cultural trappings. The U.S. fought a World War against Japan. They are certainly going to be more familiar with that culture from the get go. That’s generally how it happens. Nobody likes to emulate the cultural trappings of unimportant countries.
Sure, I can agree with that. But that’s not what you said. Recall, what you originally said was the following:
And now you’re backtracking.
So how about you get it right the first time, eh?
You’ve been here how long pawi and you still haven’t figured out that there will be all sorts of links — both positive and negative — which are posted here only because they have some sort of relation to Korea or Koreans? It’s Korea…in blog format. Says it right there at the top of the page if you look.
I understand the *GyopoShockTM that many go through when they first arrive at the ‘Hole, but how is it possible that you’re still showing symptoms after all these years?
*The initial shock and disgust accompanied by indignant outrage and disbelief displayed by many gyopos upon their introduction to some of the criticisms, mocking, and sarcasm directed at the motherland that occur at Ye Olde Marmot’s Hole. Acute cases can result in blind defense and overcompensating counterattacks (Net Kim), constant threats to leave and never come back (The Korean), years of paranoid, incoherent rambling about “the expat” (pawi), relentless searches for Korean Taco articles (WangKon), and textbook insanity (wjk).
No actually, I’m not. The discussion started regarding Korean valuation, validation, and how it related to westerners, and that’s the context in which I was referring to it, which is why I followed the sentence you quoted with this: “This is why most westerners in Korea just start to tune out the blind nationalistic valuations they’re bombarded with, because when everything is so special and uniquely wonderful, then nothing is.”
And it’s also why I followed my bathroom wall comment with another paragraph about the interaction between westerners/Koreans. If you couldn’t follow the context, I can’t help you. So how’s about you put some more effort into reading, so you can get it right the first time and save yourself the embarrasment, eh?
On a side note, as is your MO, you’ve taken a sentence out of context and parsed it, in order to gain what you falsely believe is some kind of mini-victory which you think will distract from the larger point. As a lover of talent, it’s truly disappointing to see you resort to the same silly and boring tactic repeatedly both here and on your own blog when you could be addressing larger points and issues. I realize it’s second nature for lawyers, but it’s one of those hurdles that you throw up that deducts from the quality of your writing…and I know how much you hate hurdles.
As a further side note, my doppelganger Skeptico has noted an obvious error in your post about the immigrant prison system, so how about you go correcting your fabrication that you didn’t get right the first time, eh? Or are you not willing to admit yet another error where you missed the context and/or misinterpreted what was written?
WK, I would agree with most of what you said @35, and none of it is new to any westerner that’s spent any time in Korea, including the obsessive cock-measuring contests and jealousy fits with Japan.
And this entire thing started with you disagreeing with Sperwer for saying pretty much what you just said right there. So why the disconnect?
Wow… Korean tacos are my weakness! Listen, as I said before, if Time, Newsweek and the WSJ are going to print articles on Korean tacos, is that not news?
Any ways, I’m taco post free for over a month… so I’m getting better!
IHBB, let’s be fair here. Gyopos aren’t the only ones with odd TMH psychosis’. Why don’t you list the odd expat TMH psychosis to maintain your “impartiality” huh?
i don’t know why i still like you, ihbb. you make me laugh.
@ #35:
Hi WangKon936,
With all respect, I disagree with you.
I think that your comment “#35″ is your view, not representing the mainstream of South Korean society.
And of course, I do not mind that some other my fellow South Koreans disagree with me. We all can think differently, to some degree.
One of my reasons for disagreeing is “the rapidly changing nature of South Korean society and South Koreans”.
My views on my country have changed a lot through years: I have collected and learned new info., gained new perspectives, reassessed my past opinions of South Korea, and kept reformulating my opinions of it.
Maybe, it’s just me: I neither respect nor disrespect Japan.
Or, all achievements other countries [Europe, etc, etc] accomplished in the past – I learned them in the books – and they’re fine. Yet, I just do not care too much about what opinions Europeans have towards Korea.
I am leaning more towards my own country, for instance, about Joseon kingdom era alone. Most of the important documents in Joseon were recorded in “written Chinese”. Korea has just begun to translate its past history into “written modern Korean”: I am learning how the early Joseon era differed from the middle period in more detail, depth, and its widened scope. These all refresh and reshape my education I already received in school days – from kindergarten to the graduate school in South Korea. Regardless of other people’s opinions [on my country] around world.
In a word, my view differs from yours.
BTW, no offense. I generally enjoy your posts ~ (although I’m a newcomer here.)
p.s. The building’s design seems very nice.
belair, you’re there already.
Indeed you are very typical of my friends.
Yet all the non-Korean people including those wonder why “Koreans push things” seem to only encounter those who do “push things”, and will talk about it like that’s typical of Korea. Wangkon is trying to defend that side of Korea I think.
I’ve heard my coworkers and Korean friends seriously criticizing Korea and aspects of her culture many times. Hearing them heap praise on Japanese things though… not so many.
Korea cares about what westerners think because, get this….THAT’s where the money is! A good image is in their national interest, you know? And they go all out trying to improve that image like they go all out on everything else they do. What that means IHBB, if you still don’t understand, is that this phenomenon has little if anything to do with koreans caring one way or another about the inherent value of their products or culture. Shit, why do I have to explain all this?
IHBB,
Sperwer said:
You said:
I was disagreeing with Sperwer’s statement that Koreans need to be validated in order to feel good about their culture. I believe that they don’t need to be “validated” in order to feel good about their culture. I believe that they already feel good about it and they just want others, particularly the West, to see the merit.
belair716,
Welcome to the comments section and please feel free to disagree with me any time you like. Yuna explains what I’m trying to get at rather well.
Time for bed… you guys in 10 hours or so.
@ #44:
Hi Yuna,
Probably, WangKon936 wrote #35 with that intention, as you said.
Well, I was just stating my opinion @ #43. Whatever WangKon936 thinks about my view… is another matter.
And of course, he’s entitled to his. I have respect for that.
@ #47:
WK936,
I didn’t see your comment at #47. Only after writing my #48, I saw it.
I can see Yuna tried to explain. Well, it’s not easy for me to fully grasp what she’s saying at this point. Maybe, I can get it later – sometimes people simply need time to understand things.
Thanks for the comment on my #43.
I’m starting to wonder if you understand the definition of validate.
val·i·date: to recognize, establish, or illustrate the worthiness or legitimacy of.
As in, see the merit.
Right, because hangul is a veritable gold-mine, and convincing whitey that Korea is the only country on earth with four seasons means he’ll go tell all his whitey friends to jump the first plane to Korea to spend all his money!
You’re either completely disingenuous or embarrassingly ignorant. There’s a difference between the marketing slogans of the KTO and the lengths to which the average Korean will go to explain all the wonders of Korean culture which have nothing to do with selling products. Not to mention the fact that the hard sell indoctrination goes right on down to grade school kids (the first time I heard the ‘four seasons is unique to Korea’ and ‘hangul is the greatest language in the history of the universe’ was from my 8-year old nephew), who clearly have no interest in profit margins.
Thanks pawi. I’m sure if I met you in a bar, you’d be an agreeable old geezer to shoot the shit with, and you wouldn’t actually find me to be the satan spawn of Tojo and Ohno.
WangKon936 said: “On the inside Koreans are extremely critical of themselves, their country, their society, etc. Why do you think the suicide rate is so high?”
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read this week.
Why are there no Korean tacos in Korea? Just curious.
IHBB,
As a reader, I am not supposed to plug in what it is not written to have it be correct and persuasive. That’s the job of the writer. This is not about petty rivalry, it’s about preferring precision. If you have noticed, I don’t even note the existence of those whom I don’t deem worthy of my time. If you would rather not hear from me, I am happy to oblige.
On the other hand….
I just knew Skeptico was your sock — same style. Allow me to reproduce here the cardinal and most sacred rule of AAK!: “As the editor-in-chief of Ask a Korean!, the Korean reserves the right to do whatever the hell he damn well pleases with this blog.”
Corollary to that rule is that the offense of telling me what to do with my blog is a near automatic ban. Even a hint of anyone suggesting me what to do with my blog annoys the hell out of me. I don’t care what that suggestion is. I have banned people for asking my assistant editor to weigh in on a certain question. So right now I am thinking about whether or not I want to ban the guy. I am leaning toward not, but I don’t mind seeing the guy squirm over whether or now I give a shit about what he had to say on my blog.
Squirming you say? Squirming? Do you think the guy is squirming? About comment on a blog that the editor-in-chief himself tends to ignore because he’s busy playing on a much more popular blog?
Deluded.
Do him a favour. Ban him so he’ll come over here where the real action be.
wankon, my prayers have been answered; thanks for posting a topic you know much more about. Not exactly taco truck, but close enough. Stick to the food and stay away from pretty much everything else.
Jeeezus man. Did you ever wonder why that sort of indoctrination is necessary? If the shining value of hangeul and the four seaons of korea were so readily inherent and apparent, why the hell do you think the indoctrination is necessary? Why do you think KJI indoctrinates north koreans? To serve his interest, OBVIOUSLY. Why do you think korean gov’t and chaebols indoctrinate south koreans with certain limited number of talking points — as you clearly suggest — when it comes to representing themselves to foreigners? To serve the national interest, OBVIOUSLY. You really don’t see this?
Christ, if the supposed “old hands” of korea are this ignorant…I shudder to think what idiot expat visitors say about korea when they go back to their countries. Hopefully only the stuff about korea being the most technologically advanced country in the world…
No need. He most likely came to AAK! from here.
I reckon German ain’t chic enough for the LA crowd. Rev up your taco truck and visit Chicago’s Glunz Bavarian Haus.
Or head west where the Germans holiday – Thailand & Sri Lanka. You can hop a cheapie Thai Airlines flight to Bangkok and dine at the wunderbar Bei Otto. That pig knuckle is outstanding.
Guten appetit.
This advanced:
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/01/13/2010011300792.html
Oops.
Sperwer, I see your korean still isn’t good enough to read the KOREAN version of korean media? How many years have you been living in the country again? Fucking pathetic.
Or this advanced:
Don’t really like the rah-rah tone of the article, but interesting nonetheless.
My bad, the link for the article is here: Dong-A Ilbo
StevieBee,
Have you ever known any suicidal people in your life?
The often times medical case of depression is probably the most cited reason for suicide. Depression is often medical, but what condition is common in/during depression? Low self esteem and a belief that things are a lot worse than they really are. Hummm… I’ll leave it up to you to make the logical connection (assuming that you can).
You may want to start plugging in some context to your reading comprehension, because it’s clearly a weakness of yours. You’re so focused on individual trees that you miss a lot of the forest.
Of course you did after the fact. If it were a sock I wouldn’t be admitting it’s my ID. When I first commented I didnt’ feel like setting up a new ID so I grabbed an old google one.
Of course that’s your prerogative. And if what you want to do with your blog is put up misleading and factually incorrect information, you’re completely free to do so. Further, if you want to completely ignore, and then threaten to ban those that point out your glaring errors (an error made by your inability to read the CONTEXT of the article I might add), then by all means make that a hallmark of your blog. Just don’t expect anyone to respect you or it.
So your choices are (a) ban someone for correctly pointing out an embarrassing error on your part, making you look like you’re afraid of criticism, (b) tuck your tail between your legs and admit the embarrassing error, or (c) ignore the error and my comment and continue to stand behind a fabrication, making you look even worse. My my, none of those look very inviting to someone so proud of his thousands of readers and unmatched writing ability.
And you think I’m the one squirming?
1.
I believe you. And instead of “sock” I should have said “handle”, since I wasn’t trying to imply that you were impersonating anyone. And I swear upon my life when we exchanged comments on my post on Korea’s politics being “advanced”, the first thought I had was: this guy is IHBB. Same smarts, same persistence, same harsh and careless writing.
2.
Let me be crystal clear here. I have no problem with people telling me that I am wrong at AAK!. Many people have done that, and I never banned anyone for that. Instead, when I feel like it, I change and update my posts in response. (See, for example, my recent post on healthcare in Korea. A commenter pointed out an overstatement, and I acknowledged it and changed it.)
What I have a huge problem with is telling me what to do, or even hinting at telling me what to do with my blog. That is what you did with this part of your comment: “…so I assume you’ll be fixing the post to correct your mistake, as well as reading more carefully in the future.” To that, a big “fuck you”.
3.
Sorry to break this to you, but the GLARING ERROR that you speak of had exactly zero impact on my readership, nor has the flow of questions in my inbox slowed.
Hey guys… be careful not to piss on Robert’s rug. I consider this posting the makeshift “bar” section that I’m managing for the house party, but the rug (and the house) is still Rob’s…
Gotta give that round to IHBB. TK needs to pick whether he wants to be thick-skinned or thin-skinned and stick with it!
So in other words you put a far higher value on protecting your fragile ego than you do on accuracy and honesty. Understood.
And don’t worry, your petulant reaction has guaranteed that you won’t have to worry about me pointing out your inaccuracies or unsupportable opinions any more. Feel free to peddle your half-baked theories about the advanced state of Korean politics or the triple-digit negligent homicides occurring in immigrant prisons without me around to call bullshit.
Yes, and Glen Beck’s ratings are still flying high despite his intellectual dishonesty and ridiculous conspiracy theories about FEMA concentration camps and Nazis in the White House…and Michael Moore’s films still draw tens of millions of fans despite being filled with misleading and inaccurate tripe. So what?
The minute you’re desperate enough to gauge your credibility on page views or inbox volume rather than on the substance of your writing, is the exact minute you’ve got no credibility left at all.
Why are Koreans so obsessed with pushing Korean ideology and customs onto New Yorkers?
Don’t worry. In NYC, the Jews have a firm grip on everything. Koreans have nothing on them.
JW:
I see you are true to the classic pattern of The Proud Korean(TM):
1. Make an unfounded claim about Korean superiority @ X.
2. When someone calls BS, change the subject and/or launch an impertinent ad hominem attack.
The Proud Korean(TM): Making Ridiculous, Bombastic Claims About Korean Cultural Superiority 5000 Years and Woundedly Wondering Why He Gets Treated like Rodney Dangerfield.
[BTW, my Korean's fine. But yeah, I prefer using the international language of record instead of a minor language, especially on an English language blog, many of whose readers are not fluent in Korean. It's called common courtesy.]
Sperwer,
JW is not that kind of commenter. He’s never, to my knowledge, made bombastic claims of Korean cultural superiority. If he ever has, then provide the permalinks. It’s only fair, otherwise you’re projecting.
JW,
Being able to read Korean fluently is not a prerequsite to commenting or having an opinion on Korea/Koreans. Back off stuff that can look like personal attacks.
WangKon936 said:
Forget it, pal. There’s no way you’re clawing your way back from your original gem of stupidity. Nobody kills themselves as a piece of self/social/cultural criticism. There’s no-one heading up to the roof because they think that kimchi is over-rated.
You said something incredibly stupid. It happens. Learn from it and move on.
StevieBee,
Listen. I don’t have the time or desire to get into it too much, but you 1) misinterpret what I said and 2) you use language that is inappropriately inflammatory. Your comment brings no additional data into the discussion and you fight an opinion with an opinion laced with what can potentially be considered as an insult so… you can attack an opinion with an equally worded opinion OR.. with facts.
But… if you continue to bring opinions with charged language to fight a comment that you disagree with (and the charged language is the main crux of your opinion, but you offer no facts and/or logical points) then I’ll have no choice but to delete your comment as being off topic… and FYI, it might not end with just that.
Moi? Projecting? When have I ever made bombastic claims of Korean cultural superiority?
Stevie Bee, I have to agree with WangKon on this point. I think that you misread his statement:
“On the inside Koreans are extremely critical of themselves, their country, their society, etc. Why do you think the suicide rate is so high?”
His point was that Koreans are hyper-self-critical. They hide this, but it comes out when they know you better and talk honestly over drinks — or in extreme cases, when they commit suicide due to feelings of worthlessness.
WangKon might or might not be correct, or he may overstate the case, but he didn’t say that Koreans kill themselves over “self/social/cultural criticism.”
At least, I didn’t read his post as meaning that.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
WangKon936 –
That’s a really positive use of your power. Well done. I explained why I disagreed with your comment and so you’re threatening to ban me.
Frankly, I found your suggestion that the high rate of suicide in Korea was due to an inherent trait of national self-analysis misguided to the point of being utterly offensive. How dare you hijack the desperation and hopelessness of countless individuals to make a rhetorical point about a nation’s character! More than anything, the high rate of suicide in Korea speaks of society’s unforgivable failure to self-reflect. However, you are apparently rather proud of the high rate, seeing it as telling of some positive trait that balances out the tendency towards self-aggrandizement.
I suggest to you that you should think more carefully about what you say before you go throwing your weight around. It is distinctly un-classy to threaten to delete or ban those with whom you disagree when they are simply dealing in rational discourse.
Dear me, Stevie Bee, WK’s saying exactly the same thing as you – that it’s not some INHERENT unique character of the individual Koreans to self-aggrandize, like we have been trying to say the whole time. The system – the government, the education – is more at fault and this unbalance *can* sometimes manifest itself as suicide rate..
Jeffery,
Fair point, but I think you (and WangKon936) are conflating self and nation. When you say that ‘Koreans are hyper self-critical when drinking’, you mean that Koreans are hyper-critical of Korea. However, my point was that nobody ever killed themselves because they thought that kimchi was over-rated. That is, suicide is an inherently personal act (perhaps the ultimate personal act) and cannot be taken as a signifier of a tendency towards social criticism, and to try and use in such a way is highly offensive.
Actually WK would’ve been better off if he’d answered his own question, and clarified which of those factors he thinks leads to the high suicide rate. Given that the conversation up that point revolved around Koreans’ views of their own culture/society/country (which is far different than individual self-criticism) and no one had even mentioned self-criticism, I think Stevie’s assumption that WK was linking the suicide rate to dissatisfaction with cultural/societal factors was a pretty fair read.
And if I had to take a guess at which of those factors contributes most to the high suicide rate in Korea, it is undoubtedly dissatisfaction with one’s personal failings, and not those of the culture or society at large. I’m sure that cultural factors can play a role — such as when the inevitable parade of high school jumpers take their dives off apartment buildings when they get their entrance exam scores back and realize they’re headed for a lifetime on the outside looking in — but ultimately most people seem to commit suicide because they’re unhappy with themselves and the choices they’ve made, and not because they’ve lost confidence in Korean society.
If you’ve been given the green light to make good on your above threats by the head cheese, please let it be known, so all the cards are on the table and those of us without posting priveleges will know that we’ll be arguing with one arm tied behind our backs and forever at the whim of your hammer.
let’s take the high number of celebrity suicides that have hit the country. I agree with you, that there are many many factors at work here, that it is personal, medical, financial, everything. But while like you say no one would kill themselves over kimchi was over-rated, there is definitely a second-order correlation in the complete mismatch of how the system like to project itself, and its people, and the *real lives* of the people – where yes people do have sex before marriage, they do make babies before marriage, they do borrow money from loan sharks and they force hallyu idol-wannabes have sex with powerful men – that it’s far from ‘dynamic’ and ‘sparkling’. I would say all this is correlated, and the effect sometimes gets manifested as high-profile suicide. (and ordinary ones too) This means that the Korean people themselves are no different, that they are not born with some sort of genetic imprint of stupid self-aggrandizement.
IHBB,
If I made my point with inflammatory language then I’d say let the gloves off and to each his own. But I generally don’t argue this way. But if I allowed this to persist then it may degenerate into something I warned about in my # 68 and that’s not good for anybody.
If you got a point make it. I’m all ears. If you want to turn it into a shouting match, then prepare for me to hit the mute button.
And this applies to everybody in this thread, not just people I would be directly conversing with.
But I’m really enjoying StevieBee’s righteous indignation at baically nothing.
I initially moved this thread to a healthy realm of boobs, and look what happened. Can we get back to boobs please?
THAT is the Korean Cultural center in the heart of NYC? That’s it? I expected bigger! What with Koreans’ obsession with pushing Korean ideology and customs onto New Yorkers and all…
yeah. boob talk = good. It has a calming effect.
So ihbb, this procedure is unlikely to result in a refund gap?
WangKon –
I simply noted my visceral reaction to your offensive / misguided claim about suicide. I didn’t level any personal insult against you. I didn’t call you stupid. I simply said that what you said was stupid. That’s not inflammatory. If you have powers to moderate then use them properly and not just against those who disagree with you.
That is the most 치사한 (there is no direct translation for this word) excuse I’ve heard all week, but I didn’t call you 치사해.
I was going to recommend Knoll’s Black Forest Inn in Santa Monica (I used to visit regularly as one of the owners’ daughters was a friend/classmate), but a quick Interwebs search shows it closed down a few years back.
ISTR there was another decent German restaurant in Hollywood, but the name escapes me.
If the lord our savior has any mercy, then yes.
And here’s the world’s worst refund gap according to the originator of the term. I have to concur it’s horrendous.
- Deleted. Comment off topic. -
As a newcomer-reader/commentor who only left several comments over (probably) three weeks on this blogsite:
*** I’ve been annoyed by the jet lag this week. I hope I’ll be back to my
busy life next week. In the meantime, I’d like to present some basic
facts about Korean language. I humbly hope this benefits any
reader of any nationality/country from around world.
*** Besides, most English teachers I had at school were polite and
helpful. Well, that’s my experience.
(1)
Long before Joseon era, there was an attempt to invent a writing system for Korean: Idu (이두) in Shilla Kingdom (신라) was the case. However, King Sejong in early Joseon was more successful in achieving that task: The King and his scholars invented Hangeul (한글) and published many books in this new writing system of Korean.
(2)
However, official documents of Joseon kingdom were recorded in “written Chinese”. Many scholars argue and still research regarding this matter. However, whether the reason(s) was(were) political power struggles “within aristocratic ruling class” (양반 혹은 사대부), “between the ruling and the ruled”, or any other, Hangeul nonetheless has been in use since King Sejong’s time despite the use of “written Chinese” in official documents. Women (especially of royal and aristocratic class) wrote novels and letters in Hangeul in Joseon and some have been considered excellent literature.
*** Which could be an interesting parallel to … : In medieval times in France, aristocratic (or at least not low class) French men, i.e., R. Descartes, used Latin in writing academically important books whereas aristocratic French women usually wrote in French.
(3)
Not often, but even some ruling class Joseon officials privately used Hangeul. “Nine Dreams” (구운몽) is an example: the novel was written by a man (of the ruling class) for his mother.
*** “구운몽”‘s English title could vary, I presume.
(4)
Thus, so naturally, Korean language absorbed many “written” Chinese words from the past. And so is the case for English: my English teachers taught me about the influence of French, German, and Latin (and more) on English, historically.
(5)
Thus, my Chinese friends confuse the existence of “some written Chinese words” in Korean language with “similarities between Chinese and Korean”. However, the syntactic differences between Chinese and Korean languages are simply too great to reconcile, which led King Sejong to invent a writing system for spoken Korean in the first place. Certainly, the case of Korean language and Hangeul bear some linguistic importance as have been researched and discussed at Linguistics conferences around the world.
(6)
In addition, I believe that as a Korean continuing in King Sejong’s spirit is more important: see needs, try to find solutions, be inventive and creative, and succeed by benefiting many people! (Hmm, now it sounds like a new year’s resolutions though … easy to say, but difficult to…. I chuckle.)
(7)
If my comment is a little off-topic, I’m sorry I’ve bored you all ~
Anyway, I need to sleep and hope to get out of this vicious jet lag…
Bye.
Was yours the first Korean family to settle there? I know nothing about that area.
When I look back at my public elementary school class pictures, I see a northern Orange County that no longer exists — we are all little white kids with smiling faces. Little did we know that our lives were poorer for lack of diversity and overcrowding, or that we were “racists” (ht to “the Korean”).
Instead, we were content with climbing trees, building models, riding horses, making forts, running around in wide-open spaces and enjoying thoroughly a way of life that was all too soon to go the way of the dodo.
Sigh… dogbertt, not you too.
‘Instead, we were content with climbing trees, building models, riding horses, making forts, running around in wide-open spaces and enjoying thoroughly a way of life that was all too soon to go the way of the dodo.’
i had the same childhood.
ps you forgot to mention collecting insects and lizards!
‘i had the same childhood.’
Me too, and so do my nephews and nieces. Don’t worry Dogbertt, the dream is still alive, you just might have to live in fly-over country to realize it for your kids.
I have fond memories of Norwalk, but then again when you are a kid, every thing seems cool and even Chicken McNuggets taste good. Norwalk is between Downey and La Mirada. It use to be a middle class neighborhood with homes built for returning GI’s from WWII. The neighborhood went downhill since then. I don’t blame it on race, I blame it on the loss of good paying blue collar jobs.
West Lakewood and North central Long Beach still has nice middle class neighborhoods of homes built in the 50′s. It’s like that because at least those guys have the old McDonnell Douglas jobs in central Long Beach.
I live in North OC. It’s still nice north of Commonwealth Blvd. but it the neighborhood has changed because the Cold War ended. What kept all of Fullerton nice were those aerospace jobs from Boeing, Raytheon and Hughes. Raytheon and Hughes left Fullerton and Boeing’s presence in Anaheim is severely reduced so south Fullerton and north Anaheim went downhill.
I spent my childhoods in the Midcities (Norwalk, Cerritos, Los Alamitos, etc.) California and Austin, TX. Good folks in Austin, TX. I was basically a Huck Finn in the Austin summers because the burbs around Austin 25 years ago were so underdeveloped.
Take issue with Wangkon’s statement all you like, but Wangkon never said he was proud of Korea’s high suicide rate.
Well, there are a few Vietnamese Buddhist monks and Korean labor activists who might have disagreed with that.
Korea’s suicide rate isn’t just about individual desperation and hopelessness. It’s about culture and society, too. I wouldn’t have drawn the same conclusion as WangKon, but to act like his comment went beyond the pale of civility and good taste is silly. I think IHBB’s comment that “Koreans think (and have been taught to think) that everything Korean is great, wonderful, and beautiful…simply because it’s Korean in origin” is ridiculous, but you don’t see me acting like he just insulted my mother, do you?
PS: What any of this has to do with the Korea Center in New York, I have no f*ing idea.
LOL.
I quote wankon: “…then I’ll have no choice but to delete your comment as being off topic.”
And I make what I think is a fair statement about off topic comments: “If you’re going to crack the whip, you better you start with yourself.”
Take a look at just about any thread he comments; you’ll find his off topic comments. Easy peasy. See wankon’s #11 above. Yuna’s b cups are the topic? Really?
Look at many of the comments just in this thread. Victoria’s Secret – off topic. Boobs – off topic. German food – off topic. The ethnic change of SoCal – off topic. Pawi’s childhood – off topic. Yada yada yada. But that’s life…conversation flows in unpredictable ways. But if you’re going police it in a hypocrital manner…
As far as I’m concerned, boobs are always relevant, no matter what the topic.
(…biting my tongue on what could be a really offensive joke…)
Quoting #18: “…your breath is wasted on a closed mind…”
This should be the eternal motto for the comments sections of the Marmot’s Hole, engraved in cyberstone at the masthead. To all of you so dedicated to shedding as much heat and as little light as possible on whatever the topic may be, I can only say ‘good onya, mates!’, you have more time and energy to waste on endless strife and bickering than I have.
Amen BM.
seouldout (and others),
Let me give you my thoughts regarding thread moderation. Considering that overheated threads caused Mr. Koehler to suspend comments for a portion of the month of December, I think thread moderation is a relevant subject to discuss, think about and implement. Furthermore, if a thread that I posted spirals out of control and attracts the ire of Mr. Koehler then I must at least bear some of the responsibility.
Moving on. Yes, you are right that all threads have off topic comments, etc. However, not all off topic comments are equal. Let me bring the analogy of chemical reactions. If you throw a bunch of chemicals into a test tube, the test tube either explodes, bubbles or does nothing visible to the human eye. Different chemicals mixed in with different other chemicals can cause reactions. Sometimes modest reactions and sometimes violent reactions. Well let’s take a look at comments that are meant to be humorous or poke amusing and cordial fun at other commenters. I’d say off topic comments of this nature would cause minimal reaction so require very little, if any, moderation. However, some off topic (and even some on topic) comments are like adding baking soda to vinegar (the mixture elementary school kids used to make their papier-mâché volcanoes “erupt”) or like adding nitrogen dioxide to water (which creates the highly toxic and highly corrosive nitric acid). So, if an off topic comment is deemed by me as being vinegar or nitrogen dioxide in potential effect, then I will consider deleting it.
When considering what is appropriate or not appropriate, one must take the flow of the thread into consideration. People generally take the flow of the thread into consideration when formulating their comments anyways. For example, I give ample evidence beforehand that I thought things were getting a bit out of control. In comment number 68 I effectively told people to “not pee on Robert’s rug” and in comment # 73 I separated two commenters from getting too heavily into things. The point in the warning signs were most certainly there. Then I gave another strong warning in number 75 that comments with inflammatory language or no logical points or a lack of data and facts will be deleted. I made this warning in reference to a specific commenter who appeared to take my warning into consideration until I read, “you are apparently rather proud of the high [suicide] rate” at which point said commenter lost all credibility with me and a response was no longer warranted.
Now we go to your specific comment which I deleted. Completely worth deleting. If you have an issue with my moderating style or the quality of my comments address it directly. I don’t remember regularly dismissing honest questions any one has had against my posting, commenting or moderating style. On that note, I’m usually pretty good at addressing any honest disagreements anyone has had with any of the points I’ve tried to make in any of my posts or comments. I interpreted your comment as dishonest and snarky and not too cleverly veiled remark to question my ability to moderate my own threads. If that was not your intent then you need to do a better job at expressing your points in a more moderate tone. Considering the flow of the thread and all my previous warnings I gave beforehand, your #93 was unwise at best and lacking scruples at worse.
Thanks for explaining how online debate works in a way that we can ALL understand!
If you had an issue with the way I’d interpreted the logical disconnect in your original comment, then you ought have responded to it and clarified your intended meaning. Simply citing your mod powers and issuing threats makes you seem rather feeble-minded, and doesn’t exactly paint you as the type who should be chairing the discussion.
I don’t know what you mean.
Never mind. It’s not important, and I’m tired of arguing for now.
Wangkon,
You find yourself having to write paragraphs due to your imprecise use of and comprehension of language. Your gripe is with hostile comments, e.g., insults, aimed specifically at you. Prior to comment #68 no comments could even come close to be seen as pissing on the rug; StevieBee pissed on you. It’s cowardly for you to hide under Robert’s rug. If you want to delete comments for hostility I’ve nothing to quibble about. Yet you cite “off topic” as the reason. Whilst off topic comments abound, plain for all to see. It looks rather pathetic.
Now, you state my comment didn’t address your moderation directly. My challenge to you couldn’t be more clear. I quoted your threat to delete “off topic” comments and said this: If you’re going to crack the whip, start with yourself. Clear as crystal. And nothing dishonest about it. If you’re going to delete comments for being “off topic” in a thread full of off topic comments that’s hypocritical. And your moderation powers ought to be questioned in this case.
We’re not clairvoyant here, and we ought not be subject to figuring out your whims.
Pawi: “agreed but i would point out that koreatown was a wasteland ghetto before the koreans got there”
Right! Herald Square was a ghetto prior to 1988. No one in their right mind would have ever thought to live on 32nd St! Prior to the Korean’s arrival Jews were living ten-to-a-room in cold water flats using sewing machines from the old country.
A bit late joining in the conversation, but since the other commentators have already said what was already in my mind, I won’t add my two cents here.
However I can’t help thinking that a mundane post turned into a 100+ comment thread, because of kyopo overreaction to the following comment made by Sperwer;
Because unless they are validated by outsiders, particularly Westerners, they have no conviction in the inherent value of these things temselves.
IMO, that comment doesn’t exactly warrant the reaction that we’ve seen in this thread. Me thinks that the kyopos here need to get a life and some fresh air.
“This means that the Korean people themselves are no different, that they are not born with some sort of genetic imprint of stupid self-aggrandizement.”
One of the interesting things with insecurity, is that the insecure are often the very ones who do self aggrandisment. So being self critical in moments in trusted company of friends, and self aggrandisment in moments with outsiders is not necessarily mutually exclusive.
“That is the most 치사한 (there is no direct translation for this word) excuse I’ve heard all week, but I didn’t call you 치사해.”
What you on about now Yuna, saying that someone said something stupid is not synonymous with saying they are stupid in standard English. Virtually everyone says something stupid from time to time, by your “synonymous” definition pretty much every one in the world is stupid.
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