“Like Selling a Million Sonatas”

by WangKon936 on December 29, 2009

Or 180 large oil tankers

Although mentioned in the last “Odds and Ends,” Korea’s signed deal with the UAE to build and maintain nuclear power reactors is Korea’s largest single foreign contract and the Middle East’s largest energy development deal, so some additional commentary (and discussion) may be warranted.

{ 87 comments… read them below or add one }

1 gangpehmoderniste December 29, 2009 at 8:44 am

At the cost of being repetitive, i think this will be Korea golden decade, wonder if they will have any project financing involved with this?

2 Yu Bum Suk December 29, 2009 at 9:36 am

Fantastic news, especially since car sales may have reached their peak this year and last.

3 Robin Hedge December 29, 2009 at 12:42 pm

Pretty impressive that they beat out EDF. Here again the lower won may have helped, and also may help a little to explain why the Korean side was more willing to agree to fixed cost. Gangepeh I also tend to think Korea is well-positioned for the decade, although we’ll see how they deal with high energy and commodity costs.

4 WangKon936 December 29, 2009 at 1:01 pm

Robin,

Each Korean reactor is “several hundred million” less than the French one, but one of the articles I read said most of that price difference was due to the fact that the French reactor can apparently survive an airplane crash!

The WSJ article is wrong. The Korean reactor is not less safe or markedly lower tech than the French reactor. It’s essentially an improved clone of the Westinghouse System 80+, so it’s based on a proven design. Why didn’t the U.S. have a chance at the deal? The U.S. nuclear reactor industry has been a bit held back since the Three Miles Island incident stopped new reactor construction in the states.

5 Brendon Carr December 29, 2009 at 1:27 pm

At the cost of being repetitive, i think this will be Korea golden decade, wonder if they will have any project financing involved with this?

What a question! A $20-40 billion construction project without project financing?!

6 cm December 29, 2009 at 1:58 pm

Some are criticising Lee;s government over this deal. Some people are unhappy that Korea’s price was only 55% of the French price. They say Korea is giving away the farm for nothing.

But the way I see it, if you don’t have any experience selling this thing and you’re competing against the best, you need to attract them with a lower enticing price at first. Future prospects are more important than now.

7 yuna December 29, 2009 at 2:12 pm

there is much criticism by the koreans who feel the pro 2MB media are singing songs of praise, the one-note-kind, without mentioning the implications – e.g. the safety risk, the red-ocean nature, the reliance of the korean companies on non-korean companies for the parts, and actual bread-in-mouth amounting to 10-20 percent only etc.
hankyoreh (kyunghyang as well) who raised these issues and who were the only ones who did not go on about 2MB’s herculean one-man effort, and swollen lips(from tiredness), are being told by the right wingers to close shop for being overly critical.
i am not just saying it from an anti-2MB perspective – i think he did well, but the main korean media coverage of this really was very very cringe.

8 cm December 29, 2009 at 2:33 pm

#7. The Korean project relies on Westinghouse’s core pump technology. Westinghouse was bought out by the Japanese Toshiba. I believe the Doosan Heavy Industry was trying to bid on Westinghouse but lost out to Toshiba. The left leaning media are pointing out that there will be nothing left of the deal for Korea once all the patent costs are paid out. I believe they are wrong. Even if they don’t make any money on this deal, it’s the right move. Look back in history in Korea’s key industries like the shipping industry, the steel industry, the semi conductor industry – did they all use 100% Korean technology when they started? Look where they are now. If they had taken the advice of the lefties, Korea would still be making shoes and textiles.

2MB did well, he deserves praise, nothing wrong with that. If he screwed up, he would have heard the boos. So what’s wrong with a little praise for a good work done? If he does wrong, criticise him, If he does right, he deserves credit where credit is due.

9 seouldout December 29, 2009 at 3:06 pm

…did they all use 100% Korean technology when they started?

And in a large part they still don’t use 100% Korean tech. Moreover, what thriving nation gets by through limiting itself to solely indigenous tech? Silly reporters and their delusions of import substitution. You would have thought they’ve heard about international trade by now.

That being said, I reckon Korea could have been $2 billion less rather than $16 billion and won the bid. Oh well, who needs $14 billion anyway?

10 yuna December 29, 2009 at 3:09 pm

i think you read korean, cm.
so here are some links on this :
one
two
three

let alone the coverage of 일거수 일투족 of the CEO president from visiting the grave of the late king and telling the crown prince “your father would have been proud” therefore making him moist-eyed, to insisting on a (pretty) arab-speaking interpreter to how many makgulis he had on his way back from copenhagen to celebrate his early victory. that’s what i meant by cringe-inducing.

all this without any mention of detailing any concerns you yourself mentioned.

as i said, i am not saying the concerns can completely swamp the glory, but it was cringe, typical korean style.

11 JW December 29, 2009 at 3:34 pm

I just hope they come reasonably close to maximizing employment and future deal creation out of this contract. If they can do that, korean media can show LMB dancing naked with roombbang girls for all I care!

12 WangKon936 December 29, 2009 at 5:51 pm

JW,

I think 2MB is depending on that… why do you think he went there personally to meet the crown prince to seal the deal?

FYI, I’m writing this comment drunk out of my mind after 10 beers and 2 bottles of soju… :)

13 WangKon936 December 29, 2009 at 5:58 pm

seouldout,

Yes, they are not using 100% their own technology. As an American, I’m upset that American companies were not competitive enough here because silly political considerations (i.e. the Three Mile Island incident) did not allow American companies to build more domestic nuclear power plants and hence develop American nuclear power technology.

Three Mile Island was 30 years ago… it’s time to move on folks!

14 yuna December 29, 2009 at 6:13 pm

FYI, I’m writing this comment drunk out of my mind after 10 beers and 2 bottles of soju… :)

just wondering, is this blog more fun when you are drunk? like at a party?
maybe i should try it. who knows what i would write then.

btw do you also tie your neck tie around your head or swirl it around your head to show you’re having a really good time?

15 WangKon936 December 29, 2009 at 6:16 pm

Hahaha…. check out my Facebook profile for all my drunk pics!

Btw… my grammar and diction, as well as my driving skills, are remarkably intact despite drinking copious amounts of alcohol!

16 yuna December 29, 2009 at 6:28 pm

uh-oh. what is your facebook name?
*don’t tell us if you are going to regret it in the morning* because i don’t want to take advantage of this situ when you’re vulnerable.

my grammar and diction as well as my driving skills, are remarkably intact despite drinking copious amounts of alcohol!

maybe it improves them.. for example, i start to spell things out like a spelling-bee person when i’m drunk, that’s when i know i should go home.

17 cm December 29, 2009 at 9:23 pm

Yuna, all the links that you posted is nothing new. The left leaning media are not happy with this deal and they accuse LMB of using this as a political tool. So?
But I agree with MB·친보수 단체인 자유주의진보연합, that 한겨레’s 사설 is a “멍청한 이야기” and that the paper is an anti South Korean “한심한 신문사” “쓰레기.

To compare this administration to the “Fifth Republic” of the Park Chung Hee era.. Yes, it’s garbage.

18 gangpehmoderniste December 29, 2009 at 9:42 pm

brendon project financing market pretty much dired up, considering the biggest players in the Middle East were the comatose British institutions, in this case i wouldn’t be surprised if this was either funded through some quasi government operation (basically issuing bonds bought by a local Central Bank and/or sovereign wealth fund) or through some kind of **GASP** vendor financing, who knows, maybe some Korean agency is behind backing the deal financially ?

Considering there are American jobs involved too i wouldn’t be surprised if America would provide some kind of financial help.

19 gangpehmoderniste December 29, 2009 at 9:52 pm

cm that’s the specialty of the left everywhere in the world to sound alarm bells about the new rise of fascism, they have to do something to justify their own shaky existence

20 theotherkorean December 29, 2009 at 10:12 pm

How come I don’t get a HT for mentioning this story in the last Open Thread?

21 WangKon936 December 30, 2009 at 3:48 am

TOK,

I heard of it before you posted your comment.

This is interesting…

And although the French government is said to be bitter about its loss, the French are unlikely to display discontent in the coming weeks, according to the people familiar with the situation. That is because France is still in talks to supply the UAE with combat aircraft, these people said.

On that note, gives me an excuse to link to this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6zH7tdatQUA/SYhbyQbwlQI/AAAAAAAAEOU/CADAerVecGE/s1600/FranceMotivationalPoster.jpg

22 theotherkorean December 30, 2009 at 4:44 am

I heard of it before you posted your comment.

That’s strange, because I posted my comment a couple of minutes after the Korean media broke the news. Which means to hear the news before me you had to be in Abu Dhabi with the Korean entourage, which is obviously not plausible since you ain’t a nuclear reactor salesperson or a LMB staffer.

Of course a more realistic explanation is that you were awake at 2~3 in the morning surfing the net and saw the headline in Naver or some other portal, in which case you would have seen the news at the same time as I did or a couple of minutes after that, but before? I don’t think so.

BTW, what time do you go to bed? I usually hit the sack around 10 ~ 11pm.

23 WangKon936 December 30, 2009 at 5:12 am

TOK,

I’ve known that Korea had the inside track on the UAE deal since mid-December. I considered the news more public domain as it was a major announcement. I typically give HTs to more “niche” news that don’t get a zillion press releases.

24 theotherkorean December 30, 2009 at 5:20 am

Really? As of mid December, the saying was that Korea was a dark horse in the race. It wasn’t until last week when Korea was shortlisted that people started thinking that it had a real chance of winning deal.

Regarding the HT, OK, but if you were going to mention RK’s “Odds and Ends” then wouldn’t it have been proper to mention my comment, too?

25 NetizenKim December 30, 2009 at 5:44 am

#24

TOK, the Wang-Meister is notoriously tight about giving out HTs. What you need to do is badger him about his spelling mistakes until he relents.

26 NetizenKim December 30, 2009 at 6:02 am

“Like selling a million billion Sonatas”, as per article.

27 NetizenKim December 30, 2009 at 6:03 am

Sorry, that should be:

“Like selling a million billion Sonatas”, as per article.

28 WangKon936 December 30, 2009 at 6:15 am

NetKim,

I saw that so I corrected the article. A $20B contract would mean a million Hyundai Sonatas, not a billion. If it’s a billion Sonatas, then that would be $20 a pop.

180 super tankers is about right.

What did you major in again in college?.. ;)

29 NetizenKim December 30, 2009 at 6:18 am

Why didn’t the U.S. have a chance at the deal? The U.S. nuclear reactor industry has been a bit held back since the Three Miles Island incident stopped new reactor construction in the states.

This is not the only instance of the US shooting itself major-league-style in the foot when it comes to energy policy.

Check this out:

R. & D. expenditures have grown faster in China than in any other big country—climbing about twenty per cent each year for two decades, to seventy billion dollars last year. Investment in energy research under the 863 Program has grown far faster: between 1991 and 2005, the most recent year on record, the amount increased nearly fifty-fold.

In America, things have gone differently. In April of 1977, President Jimmy Carter warned that the hunt for new energy sources, triggered by the second Arab oil embargo, would be the “moral equivalent of war.” He nearly quadrupled public investment in energy research, and by the mid-nineteen-eighties the U.S. was the unchallenged leader in clean technology, manufacturing more than fifty per cent of the world’s solar cells and installing ninety per cent of the wind power.

Ronald Reagan, however, campaigned on a pledge to abolish the Department of Energy, and, once in office, he reduced investment in research, beginning a slide that would continue for a quarter century. “We were working on a whole slate of very innovative and interesting technologies,” Friedmann, of the Lawrence Livermore lab, said. “And, basically, when the price of oil dropped in 1986, we rolled up the carpet and said, ‘This isn’t interesting anymore.’ ” By 2006, according to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the U.S. government was investing $1.4 billion a year—less than one-sixth the level at its peak, in 1979, with adjustments for inflation. (Federal spending on medical research, by contrast, nearly quadrupled during that time, to more than twenty-nine billion dollars.)

Scientists were alarmed. The starkest warning came in 2005, from the National Academies, the country’s top science advisory body, which released “Rising Above the Gathering Storm,” a landmark report on U.S. competitiveness. It urged the government to boost investment in research, especially in energy. The authors—among them Steven Chu, then the director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and now the Secretary of Energy, and Robert Gates, the former C.I.A. director and now the Secretary of Defense—wrote, “We fear the abruptness with which a lead in science and technology can be lost—and the difficulty of recovering a lead once lost, if indeed it can be regained at all.”

They called for a new energy agency that could spur the hunt for “transformative” technologies. It would inject money into universities and companies and would be called the Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy, or ARPA-E, modelled on DARPA, the Defense Department unit that President Eisenhower founded in response to Sputnik. (DARPA went on to play a significant role in the invention of the Internet, stealth technology, and the computer mouse, among other things.) ARPA-E, they hoped, would shepherd new energy inventions from the lab to the market, bridging the funding gap that is referred to in engineering circles as the “valley of death.” Congress approved the idea in 2007, but President George W. Bush criticized it as an “expansion of government” into a role that is “more appropriately left to the private sector.” He never requested funding, and the idea fizzled.

Other plans withered as well. In January, 2008, the Bush Administration withdrew support for FutureGen, a proposed project in Illinois that would have been the world’s first coal-fired, near-zero-emissions power plant. The Administration cited cost overruns, saying the price had climbed to $1.8 billion, but an audit by the Government Accountability Office later discovered that Bush appointees had overstated the costs by five hundred million dollars. House Democrats launched an investigation, which concluded, “FutureGen appears to have been nothing more than a public-relations ploy for Bush Administration officials to make it appear to the public and the world that the United States was doing something to address global warming.” An internal Energy Department report had warned that cancelling the project would set back the advance of carbon-storage technology by “at least 10 years.” An e-mail between officials emphasized that Bush’s Secretary of Energy, Samuel Bodman, “wants to kill” FutureGen “with or without a Plan B.” (Bodman denies that costs were overstated.)

After FutureGen foundered, China broke ground on its own version: GreenGen. If it opens as planned, in 2011, China will have the most high-tech low-emissions coal-fired plant in the world.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/12/21/091221fa_fact_osnos?currentPage=4#ixzz0b7BEbYNx

30 WangKon936 December 30, 2009 at 7:44 am

Pittsburg Tribune estimating that $1B of the $20B will go to Westinghouse, which is headquartered in Western Pennsylvania. That’s good and all, but I’m still upset that it could have been much more…

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/business/s_659810.html

Abu Dhabi newspaper The Nation claims that Korea’s bid was “a third” less than the competition’s.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091229/BUSINESS/712299956/1058&template=columnists

Damn, the left-wing nut jobs at The Hankyoreh are being a bunch of haters because the deal buoys the LMB administration… :P

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/396029.html

31 dogbertt December 30, 2009 at 9:03 am

What “comatose British institutions”?

32 yuna December 30, 2009 at 9:11 am

To compare this administration to the “Fifth Republic” of the Park Chung Hee era..

well, i wouldn’t say comparing “directly” to. but as i mentioned before, that sort of “our leader achieved such and such” kind of tone sung by the majority of the news channels and the newspapers are “reminiscent” of the era is what’s inferred.

33 cm December 30, 2009 at 9:25 am

Yuna, ironically it was Park Chung Hee’s forward vision to steer Korea into a nuclear age which has brought this legacy of South Korea exporting something that only a few big countries can match. God only knows where Korea would be today without him, because just about every big industry he started way back when, are Korea’s core industries today.

And this article proves it. According to Dong-ah Ilbo, Wangkon, Korea has already completed the development of the missing technology held by Westinghouse-Toshiba consortium. According to the article, Korea’s nuclear technology will be 100% Korean made technology before 2012. The article says Westinghouse was asked to join KEPCO-Doosan for the sole purpose of their experience in completing projects like this, and not because Korea is lacking in any technology.

http://news.donga.com/3/all/20091230/25112447/1

So many contradicting articles. Who to believe?

34 yuna December 30, 2009 at 9:44 am

cm, now we can accompany that with development in the quality of the press – the ideal is to develop a broad spectrum, not such a 5:1 kind of polarization.
the problem is that the majority of the koreans think the majority of what they see on the news is filtered/one-sided since this admin came into power (hence adding to this great hoopla/worry with the media law) but they don’t think the left is that much better either, though necessary, that’s the conundrum.

35 WangKon936 December 30, 2009 at 9:58 am

cm,

I’m still very much hesitate to call it “100% Korean made technology” as much of it was technology innovated elsewhere but effectively facsimiled (legally) by Korea. Nothing wrong w/that per se but I feel more comfortable calling it “technology Korea owns the rights to” and can use without being sued… ;)

36 Sperwer December 30, 2009 at 10:19 am

I’m still very much hesitate to call it “100% Korean made technology” as much of it was technology innovated elsewhere but effectively facsimiled (legally) by Korea. Nothing wrong w/that per se but I feel more comfortable calling it “technology Korea owns the rights to” and can use without being sued…

That’s correct. None of the technology is homegrown; it was all acquired. I know, because I represented Doosan’s predecessor, Korea Heavy, and Doosan in most of the relevant transactions, including the failed attempt(s) to buy Westinghouse (and a competitor with similar core nuke tech). Most of the tech is a little beyond it’s useby date – which is why e.g., GE, etc, sold it to Korea/Doosan – but still serviceable. I doubt very much that “Doosan” has made any significant improvements in any of it, although in the case of some of the control components, I know that the US company that they acquired has continued to innovate using Doosan’s capital and its own US engineering staff at its plant in the US Southwest.

37 gangpehmoderniste December 30, 2009 at 7:55 pm

dogbertt: RBS, Barclays. Lloyds etc. ?

Wait for Hsbc to hit the wall too

38 WangKon936 December 31, 2009 at 6:51 am

Overall, I have to be counted as impressed with what KEPCO was able to do here. They went head to head with more established players in France, Europe, the U.S. and Japan and came up on top at the end of the day. Korea had ox charts, steam trains and maybe a few electric street cars left over by the Japanese 50 years ago and now exports nuclear reactors. It wasn’t an easy journey. Korean companies had to beg, steal and borrow (and buy) technology from reluctant foreign companies in order to get there.

Some may point to Korea’s economic development history and look to Japan as the impetus or the U.S. providing the essential security arrangement that made it all happen (but the U.S. also provided the security arrangement for the Japanese and Western Europeans as well too). However, some day in the future experts may want to give the Middle East some credit too. The Middle East is where many of Korea’s construction and heavy machinery business cut their teeth. The Americans, Japanese and Europeans didn’t trust Korean building methods so never hired them to head construction projects. Sure the Koreans’ usually had the best prices, but they had very little in terms of resume vs. U.S. and European companies, but the oil rich nations of that region took a chance and generally gave the Koreans a shot and an invaluable opportunity to build their resumes, providing the seeds of experience that build-up the contruction divisions of Doosan, Hyundai Heavy and Samsung Heavy. Practically all Koreans (including yours truly) have an uncle or two (if not a father) that have spent some time in the Middle East on some construction job for some Chaebol.

So, at the end of the day, congratulations South Korea.

39 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 8:47 am

To compare this administration to the “Fifth Republic” of the Park Chung Hee era.. Yes, it’s garbage.

Chun Doo-hwan was president during the Fifth Republic, not Park Chung-hee.

Overall, I have to be counted as impressed with what KEPCO was able to do here.

Although the deal is a historic one for Korea, I’m not sure what is so “impressive” about handing in an under priced bid using technologies that can’t be legally applied if loyalties weren’t paid to their non-Korean owners.

Don’t know why some of the Kyopos here are going ga ga about the nuclear deal, and doing the “I’m Proud to be a Korean” routine when most Koreans here are like “Oh, ok we won the big nuclear deal in the UAE. Wish I’ve brought shares in those companies before the deal was announced. Ya-da Ya-da”

40 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 8:55 am

TOK, the Wang-Meister is notoriously tight about giving out HTs.

Well he did in a way give a HT to Robert Koehler, via this statement;

Although mentioned in the last “Odds and Ends,”

From the looks of it, Wangky gave a HT to a white blog owner, while ignoring a Korean commentator. On top of that he tried to justify his actions via the use of uhm… lame lame excuses.

41 yuna December 31, 2009 at 8:55 am

@ cm, and also, it was only a detail i was just going to ignore, but hankyoreh was not the publication making that fifth republic comparison. that came from minjudang which was reported in another publication, which i just provided a link to.

42 cm December 31, 2009 at 9:15 am

“Although the deal is a historic one for Korea, I’m not sure what is so “impressive” about handing in an under priced bid using technologies that can’t be legally applied if loyalties weren’t paid to their non-Korean owners”

Really? I’m starting to lean on the theory that all the money to be maid are going to be given away to royalties to foreign patent holders is really BS made by the Liberal and their media.

Read Wangkon’s third party links. Read my link to Dongah newspaper which says BS to this rumor too.

43 gangpehmoderniste December 31, 2009 at 9:21 am

Koreans talent to put themselves down is second only to Italians…i think overall this is spectacular news for the country and nothing wrong with a bit of celebration, the French and the Germans do it routinely for much less

44 yuna December 31, 2009 at 9:22 am

Really? I’m starting to lean on the theory that all the money to be maid are going to be given away to royalties to foreign patent holders is really BS made by the Liberal and their media.

actually 5 months ago by the right-leaning media too but they went completely mute on this point on the 기쁘다 2MB (from UAE) 오셨네 day. it’s a specialty of the right – this going mute on points proven wrong maybe..

45 gbnhj December 31, 2009 at 9:54 am

While WangKon might be trumpeting the praises of Korean industry a bit in his comments in #38, I’d say his assessment is correct. I’d also aver that putting together a successful bid campaign of this magnitude – which includes licenceable technology – is impressive. After all, their competitors were not able to do the same, even though their bids, odds-on, will also have included licensed technologies. At the end, their bid can be appreciated for what it is: a submittal that met the project criteria while being significantly cheaper than their competitors’.

On a minor note, I’d also say that Korea Heavy Industries, although now rebranded as Doosan Heavy Industries and Construction, deserves the credit for developing the business. As HANJUNG, they began operation in 1962, Doosan only bought them in 2001.

46 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 11:02 am

Read my link to Dongah newspaper which says BS to this rumor too.

If you show a non-Korean a Dong-a(not Dongah) article and say that this is it, he/she will take it at face value, since he/she won’t know that it’s a conservative paper that slants its articles to the right.

Now if you show a Korean a Dong-a or a Hanki article for that matter and say that this is it, than that Korean(assuming that he/she is a pragmatic type) will give you the look that says “Are you a right(left) wing wacko?” or “You don’t know shit, don’t you?”. More so because you are well a Kyopo.

My advice to you is that instead of linking conservative dailies and telling everyone else that this is the truth, read both the conservative and the left-wing dailies and make up your own mind. The truth lies somewhere in between.

47 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 11:17 am

After all, their competitors were not able to do the same,

True, their competitors were watching their bottom line while Korean companies weren’t. Now that I think about it, being able to ignore your bottom line, shareholders, and the possible future of one’s company for the chance to make history can be called “impressive”.

The Korean consortium probably thought that it was well worth the risk to slash prices in order to gain a key prize so that they can have a chance in winning other big nuclear projects. OK, but then these companies will have to make up for whatever financial loss they may have incurred. Which means they may have to increase prices when bidding for future projects(may not be easy considering that there is now a benchmark) or ask the government for compensation(possible but then the Korean public may not be so forgiving). Of course if they do incur the losses and cannot make up for them, then there are the average Kims, Parks, and Lees who may have to go home because their employer was crazy enough to get itself into a big financial hole.

Either way, at the end of the day, someone’s going to be left with a very big bag.

48 thekorean December 31, 2009 at 11:26 am

True, their competitors were watching their bottom line while Korean companies weren’t.

How do you know this? And even if that were true…

OK, but then these companies will have to make up for whatever financial loss they may have incurred. Which means … ask the government for compensation(possible but then the Korean public may not be so forgiving).

… do you have any clue how automobile industry in Korea grew to be where it is now? Mind you, this is coming from a guy who got a lot of flame for calling Roh Moo-Hyun the third best president in Korean history.

49 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 11:37 am

How do you know this?

I work in a Korean company. It’s something that ain’t rare. Heck I even know of a certain company that priced a certain mid-range US brand server at US$750(that server usually costs around US$10,000), in order to get a big contract to supply workstations and servers. Despite getting the contract, the salesperson in charge regretted doing that, and he never did that again, even if it meant losing a sale.

… do you have any clue how automobile industry in Korea grew to be where it is now?

I don’t, so educate me. But if you’re talking about public funds, Korea of the 60s and the 70s is a whole lot different compared to Korea of the 21st century.

50 gangpehmoderniste December 31, 2009 at 11:44 am

TK: that’s what i’ve always liked about chaebol capitalism, precisely this ability to sacrifice short term profitability for longer term structural growth.

Big strategic advantage in an era where quarterly profits-obsessed, Wall-Street analyst-centered capitalism seem to have failed miserably.

Hell Mr. Roh at least proved he had some cojones in the end, wish a few politicians both sides of the pond would take a hint from him

51 NetizenKim December 31, 2009 at 11:48 am

#38
Overall, I have to be counted as impressed with what KEPCO was able to do here. They went head to head with more established players in France, Europe, the U.S. and Japan and came up on top at the end of the day. Korea had ox charts, steam trains and maybe a few electric street cars left over by the Japanese 50 years ago and now exports nuclear reactors. It wasn’t an easy journey. Korean companies had to beg, steal and borrow (and buy) technology from reluctant foreign companies in order to get there.

I was talking to my dad tonight and he mentioned something about Chung Ju Yung. Apparently my grandfather, who was a banker, knew Chung Ju Yung back when he was a nobody. Chung tried to schmooze with the bank managers, persistently taking them out to restaurants and buying them drinks, because he needed a loan. He looked like a common laborer, dark-skinned like someone who worked mostly in the fields and had very calloused hands. My grandfather asked Chung what assets he had and Chung replied: “I have 5 trucks.”

52 JW December 31, 2009 at 11:55 am

Wow, somebody here who’s name is not Sperwer thinks korean contract negotiators tend to either be bat shit crazy or just plain fucking stupid… wait…so are you telling me that the rumors about koreans possessing the highest average IQ in the world ain’t true after all? Shucks. :(

53 NetizenKim December 31, 2009 at 11:59 am

#50

A couple of days ago the Chinese government passed a law mandating that all state-owned utilities purchase power generated by renewable sources regardless of the cost. This can never happen in the US.

54 gbnhj December 31, 2009 at 12:03 pm

True, their competitors were watching their bottom line while Korean companies weren’t. Now that I think about it, being able to ignore your bottom line, shareholders, and the possible future of one’s company for the chance to make history can be called “impressive”.

But you’ve no proof of this – in fact, there haven’t even been any direct allegations to that effect. All you’ve presented us with is the story of another company’s apparently-regretted loss-leader strategy as an indictment of this deal.

55 NetizenKim December 31, 2009 at 12:07 pm

#47

I don’t think it is a loss making deal. I think they decided to sell the reactors on thin margin. Not sure what the margin is on the service and maintenance contract. But KEPCO also has a stake in the local utility, as part of the deal, and there is an additional revenue stream coming from the sale of the power distributed into the grid from the reactors.

56 thekorean December 31, 2009 at 12:17 pm

I work in a Korean company. It’s something that ain’t rare.

If I was more of a dick I would throw in a Latin phrase here. But you seem like a reasonable guy, so I’m sure you already knew that your company’s actions do not affect what KEPCO did here.

I would not be surprised if KEPCO did that, but it’s important to only talk about things you know. Rank speculation is irresponsible.

I don’t [have any clue how automobile industry in Korea grew], so educate me.

No time/too tired to get into detail — but basically, Korean consumers have been subsidizing the Korean car industry for decades now, to this day. (Even putting aside the 60s- and 70s-style public funds.) Hyundai Genesis costs up to $20,000 more in Korea than in the U.S. Everyone in Korea knows this. Does that stop Koreans in Korea from buying Genesis? Nope, although the grumbling and gray market are both growing slowly.

Trust me, Korean public has a LOT of tolerance to foot the losses if they are convinced that a national interest is at stake. And this deal is billed as opening up an entire new business unit for Korea, Inc. Korean public would rapturously foot the bill if it comes to that.

57 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 12:19 pm

But you’ve no proof of this – in fact, there haven’t even been any direct allegations to that effect. All you’ve presented us with is the story of another company’s apparently-regretted loss-leader strategy as an indictment of this deal.

True. But you yourself haven’t given any proof that the Korean consortium was watching its bottom line when it handed in a bid that was US$16 billion less than the French bid. If the price difference was oh let’s say US$5 billion , I may be willing to believe that the Korean consortium “didn’t take its clothes off”.

58 gbnhj December 31, 2009 at 12:46 pm

Not just Genesis, TK – certain versions of the Equus are likewise reverse-imported.

59 JW December 31, 2009 at 12:51 pm

You know, I never really understood how advertising could have so much impact, but when I think about the fact that Google earns 20 billion a year on the back of them itsy bitsy search ads that I have yet in my entire life to click on even a single time, I really have to think that soft influence generated by a deal this big, without even counting future nuclear deals dependent on this deal, is well worth the 16 billion that the korean consortium used to undercut their rivals. It’s a no-brainer!!!

60 JW December 31, 2009 at 12:58 pm

And of course soft influence matters much less to established powers! So the the ability for korea to go in much cheaper makes that much more sense!

61 thekorean December 31, 2009 at 1:01 pm

gbnhj, I didn’t realize Hyundai exported Equus, but I’m not surprised at all.

62 cm December 31, 2009 at 1:02 pm

theotherkorean, I work in a Korean company too. But what does that prove? Your point there is irrelevant to this discussion.

Despite what all the left wingers are whining (that KEPCO-Doosan will have to fork out up to 45% of the cost), that’s not what some in the US are saying:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/business/s_659810.html

And that’s not even the Korean media. $1 billion out of $20 billion, doesn’t seem like an end of the world to me, and it only strengthens the conservative paper’s positions that the claims of monetary losses on patent payouts are BS. Not to mention the other $20 billion which will be paid to Korea for maintaining and servicing the power plants over the next decades.

What’s the other choice? If Korea doesn’t significantly reduce the price, to dangle a carrot, Korea would not have won this project. Bottom line is it is very difficult to break into this line of business without experience and reputation. To get that opportunity to build up the experience, it’s the price Korea has to pay. The choice is not do anything and not start anything and just sit safely tight and not take any chances, and wait for the Chinese to catch up and take over all the industries. I’m sorry, but that’s not a Korean style of doing things.

I applaud Lee Myung Bak’s policies on the economy. He’s doing everything right.

63 gbnhj December 31, 2009 at 1:20 pm

gbnhj, I didn’t realize Hyundai exported Equus, but I’m not surprised at all.

That’s because they don’t. Sorry, that’s my mistake – I always mix that car up with the Chairman (although no Korean ever would).

64 cm December 31, 2009 at 1:24 pm

They will, starting later this year, with a price tag of $60,000. It costs $80,000 in Korea. They’re aiming to sell 5000 a year.

65 thekorean December 31, 2009 at 1:29 pm

Yeah, I knew they weren’t selling Equus in the U.S. just yet — I went to the NY auto show this year and the Hyundai booth was asking people if they would consider buying it. The people were generally positive, oohing and aahing when the salesperson was showing off Equus’ features. I remember the salesperson was saying how certain features were “only available in Korea,” and people seemed impressed. That amazed me.

66 gbnhj December 31, 2009 at 2:01 pm

They will, starting later this year…

They’re better get at it, then – there’s not much time left :) (I keed, I keed)

67 cm December 31, 2009 at 2:17 pm

Correction. Later, as in summer 2010.

68 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 2:25 pm

I’m sure you already knew that your company’s actions do not affect what KEPCO did here.

I would not be surprised if KEPCO did that, but it’s important to only talk about things you know. Rank speculation is irresponsible.

I’m in agreement that rank speculation is irresponsible. But on the other hand, a logical assumption based on one’s experiences and the facts on hand, isn’t being irresponsible. Now that I think about it I should have said added maybe or probably in my previous comments.

I remember once some of the non-Korean commentators talking about the SOP of the Korean companies. Well, underbidding to gain a strategic foothold is the SOP for some of the Korean companies here. It has happened before. Just like the same Korean companies ordering its employees to each buy 10 or so of something in order to increase market share or reduce the stock of unwanted items, it’s the corporate culture here, and it won’t go away anytime soon. So, it would be naive to expect Korean companies to not underbid when the strategic future is at stake. Of course this is just an assumption.

Korean consumers have been subsidizing the Korean car industry for decades now, to this day. (Even putting aside the 60s- and 70s-style public funds.) Hyundai Genesis costs up to $20,000 more in Korea than in the U.S. Everyone in Korea knows this. Does that stop Koreans in Korea from buying Genesis? Nope, although the grumbling and gray market are both growing slowly.

Trust me, Korean public has a LOT of tolerance to foot the losses if they are convinced that a national interest is at stake.

Reality check. The reason that some Koreans with money to burn buy a Genesis instead of a Bimmer or a Benz is a) better after service network and b) stigma of owning a foreign car. Others who don’t care will gladly go into a BMW, Benz, Lexus or Infiniti showroom and sign the papers. So I wouldn’t say that the Korean public has a “LOT of tolerance”. This sentence implies that Koreans do this by choice. Of course if they had a choice or at the least felt they had a choice, they wouldn’t subside the chaebols by paying more for a Korean car than what it costs in the US or foot the losses of Korean companies for that matter.

69 Brendon Carr December 31, 2009 at 2:26 pm

What’s the other choice? If Korea doesn’t significantly reduce the price, to dangle a carrot, Korea would not have won this project. Bottom line is it is very difficult to break into this line of business without experience and reputation. To get that opportunity to build up the experience, it’s the price Korea has to pay. The choice is not do anything and not start anything and just sit safely tight and not take any chances, and wait for the Chinese to catch up and take over all the industries. I’m sorry, but that’s not a Korean style of doing things.

Sit tight and not take chances — that’s the Korean lawyer’s style of doing things. Lie down under your desk and wait for a client to appear, magically.

It is very difficult to break into any business without experience and reputation. Law firms face this kind of strategic decision every day; I only wish that more law firms had a little of KEPCO’s kind of vision. But I guess if they all had it, it wouldn’t be special any more.

70 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 2:43 pm

And that’s not even the Korean media. $1 billion out of $20 billion, doesn’t seem like an end of the world to me, and it only strengthens the conservative paper’s positions that the claims of monetary losses on patent payouts are BS. Not to mention the other $20 billion which will be paid to Korea for maintaining and servicing the power plants over the next decades.

I think you overlooked yuna’s comment and link in #44. And the other US$20 billion isn’t a sure deal, yet.

What’s the other choice? If Korea doesn’t significantly reduce the price, to dangle a carrot, Korea would not have won this project.

I don’t know, maybe bid US$30 billion instead of US$20 billion?

71 pawikirogii December 31, 2009 at 5:25 pm

‘Park Chung Hee’s forward vision to steer Korea into a nuclear age which has brought this legacy of South Korea exporting something that only a few big countries can match. God only knows where Korea would be today without him, because just about every big industry he started way back when, are Korea’s core industries today.’ cm

pak chong hee is one of the greatest men of the 20th century. where would korea be w/o him?

welcome back, cm.

72 cm December 31, 2009 at 9:19 pm

“I don’t know, maybe bid US$30 billion instead of US$20 billion?”

Who says that would have been enough to reverse the November 16 decision by the UAE to go with France? Were you there in the negotiation?

73 theotherkorean December 31, 2009 at 10:20 pm

Were you there in the negotiation?

Were you there also? Because I haven’t heard anything about the UAE selecting France before reversing its decision last Sunday.

Besides you asked whether there was a choice, and well, there was one. Now whether or not it was a good choice, I guess we’ll know in 2020, when the plant is scheduled to be completed.

74 cm January 1, 2010 at 12:14 am

When Korea lost out to Italy in bidding for the UAE’s fighter trainer project earlier this year, I think it was the Liberals who were the loudest in criticizing LMB administration. Korea didn’t offer a Korea Discount at that time, and they lost the bid.

The reality is this. Korea’s national brand power is very low. Korea has to sell at at a steeply discounted price than the higher branded competitors for the same quality of goods and services. We may not like that fact, but that is the reality until things change.

From consumer goods, to ships, to autos, to semi conductors, constructions, and now nuclear power plants, it’s been the same strategy that has worked . I don’t see a problem with this.

75 gangpehmoderniste January 1, 2010 at 12:21 am

add to that list cosmetics, health products, software and telco equipiment…this is the biggest problem me and my girlfriend have selling Korean products in European markets, outside of cars&electronics (and very recently for those too) Korea in many major markets is still confused with China…let me add on a personal note that the quality of Korean goods is generally impressive, their marketing support instead is comparable to what it was in Italy in the 1970′s (hence in the US in the 1950′s) and it’s difficult to explain to my clients they have to improve it.

Once the pproblem is solved Korea will be universally known as the new Japan

76 cm January 1, 2010 at 12:36 am

Straight from the government official, quoted by a leftist paper.

He says this is not dumping and we are making money. And he’s upset at the unfounded charges.

http://economy.hankooki.com/lpage/politics/200912/e2009123017475793120.htm

77 thekorean January 1, 2010 at 12:54 am

Because I haven’t heard anything about the UAE selecting France before reversing its decision last Sunday.

Dude, I tried to be nice with you but at this point it’s pretty clear you are just running your mouth without reading enough. That UAE all but settled on France before changing its mind was all over the news. Just shut the hell up until you get more informed, eh?

78 thekorean January 1, 2010 at 1:07 am

cm, you would consider Hankook to be a leftist paper? They call themselves conservative, you know. (Although its tone is definitely less strident than Chosun.)

79 WangKon936 January 1, 2010 at 3:58 am

Interesting article on the APR-1400, its relation to the System 80+, its passive safety systems and… some detail on the Chinese (and Indian) competition that’s on the horizon…

http://www.glgroup.com/News/South-Korea-UAE–Nuclear-Deal-Future-Lies-in-Low-Cost-Advanced-Nuclear-Reactors-45677.html

80 WangKon936 January 1, 2010 at 4:11 am

On a lighter note… during final negotiations, was LMB’s interpreter’s skirt too short?.. ;)

http://photo.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/12/28/2009122800237.html?Dep0=chosunnews&Dep1=left_photo&Dep2=photo07

81 JW January 1, 2010 at 4:15 am

All I knows is she got a 100 on the arabic component of 수능시험, which seems to be gaining popularity among our hard working 고삘이들 these days. :)

82 WangKon936 January 1, 2010 at 4:21 am

There are more than a few ajoshis that can speak at least some Arabic. I have an uncle who can speak fluent Farsi.

83 theotherkorean January 1, 2010 at 7:49 am

Dude, I tried to be nice with you but at this point it’s pretty clear you are just running your mouth without reading enough.

Dude, I read the papers, too. Honestly I haven’t heard or read a thing about the the UAE going with France first . I also tried to google it, without luck.

I believe the polite thing to do here is provide a link. Then I’ll say “Oh ok, I was wrong there, thanks for the link.” Hey when you confronted me with the “rampant speculation” thing at the least I was polite enough to say that I was wrong in how I expressed myself, without calling you something or another.

At the least you can return the courtesy. Unless of course you have issues that prevent you from doing that.

84 theotherkorean January 1, 2010 at 7:58 am

was LMB’s interpreter’s skirt too short?..

Gimme a break. I’ve seen young female expats wear skirts that were shorter than that(but not that short) during my trips to Abu Dhabi.

As long as the female subject in question isn’t in Saudi Arabia or Iran, a skirt that is at or just above the knees is acceptable even during official functions.

85 thekorean January 1, 2010 at 8:02 am

Google “UAE 원전 수주국 프랑스 낙찰” (without quotes.) On the first page, there are at least four articles (out of 11 links) that talk about UAE going to France first.

86 theotherkorean January 1, 2010 at 9:06 am

Actually, I tried searching it thru Naver(better for Korean searches) and did find these Chosun and MK articles;

http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/12/29/2009122900070.html

http://news.mk.co.kr/outside/view.php?year=2009&no=664659

I was mostly looking through the non-Korean media before your suggestion, and the closest I can find is this FT article which stated that “France was touted as a front runner.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1655d5c6-f2e3-11de-a888-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1

So, I would say it was all over the major Korean papers or at the least the conservative ones, but not in the foreign media.

87 Ledtim January 1, 2010 at 6:14 pm

@thekorean for post #48
A bit off topic, but who do you consider to be the second best president then? First is probably Park Chung Hee like most Koreans, but I’m drawing a blank on the second because they are all pretty mediocre.

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