According to a witness (via another source), US missionary/North Korea activist Robert Park was detained as soon as he crossed over the Tumen River into North Korea, reports AP.
OK, here’s what I’ll say about Park. Frankly, crossing the border into North Korea shouting “I am an American citizen. I am bringing God’s live. God loves you” seems a little insane, although as far as extreme acts of religious devotion go, it beats trying to blow yourself up on a passenger jet, I suppose. And at least he made clear that he doesn’t want to be rescued. That’s the true martyr spirit, and he deserves respect for it, especially given the cause.
That said, the fact that the guy seems to want North Korea to put him in jail leads me to believe they’ll just end up deporting him.
What I wonder, though, is how this incident will effect missionary efforts in China to help North Korean refugees. I can’t imagine the Chinese are too thrilled by the stunt, and it would be a shame if they begin to make life even tougher for the souls working to bring North Korean refugees to freedom.
{ 67 comments… read them below or add one }
What Park did may seem insane to some, and at least you’ve stopped short of labelling him insane, but I don’t see things that way at all. I think he’s rather principled, and brave, actually, as his statements prior to departure to China (and contained in the linked article) would support.
gbnhj, cannot agree more. I admire Park’s courage and conviction. Too bad he is not a hot woman — American media would pay a lot more attention if that were the case.
I’m willing to cut a lot of slack for religious folk. After all, if I believed with all my heart that people everywhere must convert to a certain faith or else face an eternal afterlife of anguish and torture, then hell yes I would be knocking on doors, handing out pamphlets, and doing all kinds of other stuff.
Actions like this one are extreme, though, and I’m not sure justifiable. Obviously, Park is calling upon God’s grace to help him sway the masses, something readily proclaimed in the Bible. But it’s also written, in several different books of the Bible, “Do not put your Lord God to the test.” Striding into North Korea while shouting that you’re an American citizen might be asking a bit much of your God, not only in terms of your protection, but also in terms of effecting change. More likely, North Korea will use him for anti-US propaganda: look how they want to impose their values on us! They hate our righteous culture!
I have little sympathy for these religious lunatics whether they’re idiot Koreans getting themselves into mischief in Afghanistan, idiot Americans getting themselves into trouble in North Korea or Myanmar, or brainwashed Nigerian, morons from the Yemen, or Saudi nutters trying to blow up aeroplanes.
They’re stupidity shows that Darwin’s theory is more accurate than their view of reality.
Not sure what to think of this guy. I have a copy of his email letter dated December 25, 2009, and addressed to Kim Jong Il and the other Nork bigwigs, that was sent out to, what I guess were various journalists. Won’t copy or paste the letter but some of his demands are not going to gain him any special favors in the North Korean prisons. Most of it is pretty much the standard fare – charges of genocide, calls for Kim Jong-il and other top military advisors to step down, and compensation to the North Korean people.
Crazy brave. I admire the bravery.
And keith shows us the kind of goodwill one expects from principled liberals. I don’t know why they hate the religious Christian as they do, except perhaps that the State is their God. I’m not so religious myself, but I surely don’t despise these folks. I understand hating the crazed Muslim out to murder us, but what’s to dislike about someone who wants to pray with you or pray for you?
The US government should respect Mr. Robert Park’s wishes and not attempt to intervene, which merely sets a poor precedent anyway. Park wants to depend upon God. Let him do so. God reportedly works in mysterious ways, and his mills grind proverbially slow, so let the deity work his uncanny way.
Otherwise, the US and ROK have some 30 to 40 thousand missionaries between them to worry about.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Brendon, the guy is obviously a lunatic to illegally cross into NK yelling that he is an American Christian coming to save their heathen souls from eternal damnation in hell. It’s not bravery to be an idiot, firefighters are brave, soldiers are brave, lifeguards are brave, explorers are brave, mountaineers are brave, doctors and nurses who work in war zones helping the sick and injured are brave, aid workers are brave, F1 drivers are brave, teachers in rough inner-city schools are brave, people who work in the lifeboat service are brave, idiots are not brave. Idiots are quite unsuprisingly idiots. I’m suprised someone of your ‘mighty’ intellect can’t get their head around that!
I don’t ‘hate’ christians or other religious wackjobs unless they’re a threat to others. I actually feel a bit sorry for them, saying I hate them is like saying I hate disabled people. I actually pity them, being mentally disabled is sad. I do hate islamic extremists or any other group who seek to hurt others, that’s a given.
The good work that some religious and human rights groups do in China is wonderful, helping the poor buggers escape NK and China is very noble and brave and I have nothing but the utmost respect for those activists.
More about Mr. Park:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/27/encinitas-parents-pray-for-son-who-may-be-in-n/
I agree with the Marmot, he’ll most likely get the boot, not prison, for his stunt.
Brendon,
This principled liberal is a religious Christian. You will be surprised to find that there are a lot of us.
Me? I’m an atheist myself. I do appreciate early christian church builders, there is some amazing stuff around my parent’s house in the UK.
The thing I love most is the acoustics. Norman (age) churches in southern UK have acoustics to die for. With the software and contacts I have now, I may be rich soon..
K
Even some atheists see a need for Christianity, particularly in lesser developed parts of the world:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.ece
Irony?
@ Brendon and theKorean:
I’m an atheist and i hold extremely conservative (downright Northern Italian rightwing) views…speaking of Darwin i generally agree with theKorean on most issues, in this case i think the guy should be up in the Darwin Awards page
I’m an atheist…
So gangpe, you are a typical European!..
But… it is my belief that most declared atheists are really indifferent agnostics…
i truly believe there’s no God and yes Europe is totally Godless, even supposedly more conservative Southern European countries
Honestly i don’t think from my very limited view Korea is that different, it’s interesting to think probably America is the only religious developed society left
Well… to be an atheist one needs to believe that there is no God since science can neither prove or disprove that there is no/is not a God/gods. Actually, recent science in the possible existence (at least mathematically) in alternative dimensions and realities makes it even fuzzier.
To be a real atheism one needs to take a leap of faith, in a sorts, so when pushed, I find that most “declared” atheists will begrudgingly admit they are really agnostics.
Well… to be an atheist one needs to believe that there is no God since science can neither prove or disprove that there is no/is not a God/gods. Actually, recent science in the possible existence (at least mathematically) in alternative dimensions and realities makes it even fuzzier.
To be a real atheism one needs to take a leap of faith, in a sorts, so when pushed, I find that most “declared” atheists will begrudgingly admit they are really agnostics.
i believe the whole concept of God is actually a very human mind category…i have a theory: i think our concept of God (and fear of him) stems from the times when we were preys to larger carnivores…basically an ancestral fear of the surrounding wildlife hold by a weak species in its early stage of development. It’s maybe concindental or maybe not that most of the ancient deities in every civilisation were basically scarey animals.
Other than that God seems to be a way to explain the why and because of this universe, except these are concepts created by our own mind really.
Anyway the story of the guy entering North Korea reminded me of a guy in Taipei who got into the lion’s cage at the local zoo in order to convert the lion (and the lioness when they were well in their intimacy) to christianity.
On that note, what is Adam in the Sistine Chapel really trying to touch?
http://www.thecaveonline.com/APEH/michelangelosbrain.html
Why is it “faith” to not believe in something until hard evidence proves it’s existence? Yes, the uni(multi?)verse is old enough for more powerful beings to have POSSIBLY evolved higher up the ladder than us pissant know it all power worshiping little primates, but the religious version of cut and dried good versus evil creationism fiction? Come on all you pseudo-intellectuals, live up to your own hype.
Pseudo intellectual who ? Gotta go finish watching Boys Over Flowers
(yes i truly love hallyu crap, sorry for living)
It is not, because “to not believe in something until hard evidence proves it’s existence” is agnosticism, not atheism. And Wangkon’s point is that atheism requires faith, while agnosticism does not.
TK,
Yes, exactly. Also, I can’t agree with what wookinponub said because if you take what he said to it’s logical conclusion, then people of faith can’t be intellectuals or… make positive contributions to intellectual corpus. Then who were Newton, Pascal and Lemaître?
I am not sure if that’s the logical conclusion. Why does faith in one thing lead to faith in all things?
TK,
I don’t follow.
Proving an assertion, say “Leprechauns are real”, simply requires you to find a single Leprechaun or Leprechaun fossils perhaps. Disproving this assertion would require a simultaneous search (since they might move during the search) of every square inch of the known Universe. There is no “faith” involved in believing in the absence of something or the lack of proof of the existence thereof. As wikipedia puts it, “Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.”
This entire “atheism requires faith” fallacy is a perversion of logic and the definition of faith, and really only serves to detract from the true meaning of religious faith.
No need to go that far, because God is claimed to be real for any number of philosophical and possibly historical reasons! So one would need to disprove any such reasons beyond reasonable doubt to confidently disbelieve in God. Since most atheists cannot even claim to do so, it is only logical to believe that they are actually agnostic.
And of course! There is no way to prove with any “hard evidence” that what we are experiencing now is not a dream!
- 莊子(內篇) ; 第2篇 齊物論［26］-
昔者莊周夢爲胡蝶, 栩栩然胡蝶也, 自喩適志與! 不知周也. 俄然覺, 則蘧蘧然周也. 不知周之夢爲胡蝶, 胡蝶之夢爲周與? 周與胡蝶, 則必有分矣. 此之謂「物化」.
Too lazy to translate. WK, I did not leave the office from 12/23 to right now except twice to get fresh clothes. (And I am not sure if I can leave today either.) I will give an explanation later.
I never really understood if Europe was soo godless why does a large part of the etheist population still decide to have Christian funerals for their departed loved ones. If I were an atheist , I would think the whole concept of having a funeral to begin with would be asinine since the deceased did not belive they had a soul to start with. Just burn them and recycle their bodies for minerals like in the book “Brave new World”.
I never really understood if Europe was soo godless why does a large part of the aetheist population still decide to have Christian funerals for their departed loved ones. If I were an atheist , I would think the whole concept of having a funeral to begin with would be asinine since the deceased did not believe they had a soul to start with. Just burn them and recycle their bodies for minerals like in the book “Brave new World”.
Christians believe that the body, after-death, is an empty shell from which the soul has departed for heaven or hell. So even under theistic reasoning the funeral is essentially pointless burial of organic matter.
Funerals aren’t about religion, they are a ritual that we carry out as a standard way of showing our respect for and sadness at the loss of a member of our society. This is the standard “religion is required for morality” argument, which presupposes that humans are without empathy and need the fear of God to treat others, and the deceased, in the same way in which they would like to be treated.
@ 32
Acropolis i think as an Italian i’m a bit more qualified than many other euros to answer your question, as my country is still swamped in heavy catholic symbolism.
Well we don’t believe in God but we realise christianity was a huge part of our heritage and cultural background, and a huge glue for social life. There’s no need to shun Christian culture and some traditions even if you actually don’t believe in God…let alone the fact lots of Christian (dare i say Catholic ?) iconography is simply beautiful.
That’s why a person like me has absolutely no problem in sending my child to a catholic school (reasonably priced excellent institutions) and attending mass before his Christmas play, let alone the fact i’m absolutely against removing the cross from Italian public buildings like the damn EUSSR wants us to do, even if i’m a divorced pro-choice pro-euthanasia anti-multiculturalism atheist.
It’s part of our landscape, part of what we were and what lead us to be what we are now, part of our Heimat: Let’s say we moved on but we don’t despise our past
Italy is the best country in the world, and Europe is the best continent. Whatever Faux News hates has to be doing something right.
gangpehmoderniste, if your shtick at The Hole is going to be speaking with absolute know-it-all-ness on behalf of entire nation, ethnic group and/or continent, then you might want to change your screen name to something recognizable such as TheEuropean or TheContinental. Better yet, start a blog called Ask an Amazing European.
By the way, d’ja hear TheAmazingKorean is a lawyer?
gangpehmoderniste thank you for your response, it was insightfull, however is it not presumptive to speak for an entire nation of people when it comes to matters of faith?
Krz, I know that funerals are a show of respect for the dead. But I was referring Christian burial practices being performed by non believeres.
We will just have to wait and see if that temple gets built in Jerusalem…
#32 acropolis, being presumptive to speak not for a nation, or a continent but for a whole species, couldn’t it be because being atheists does not turn humans into vulcans?
hey, 깡패, you’re an italian with a korean partner and children and you love 꽃보다 남자? what sort of confounding WUSS combination is that? that’s a weird persona, almost as weird as my own, if i say so myself.
although i do know some italians who grew up watching japanese cartoons on tv so they might be a bit more susceptible to corny asian shit.
ok guys iìll apologise for being a bit of a pompous ass, touchè if Italy is the best country in the world Weiku i suggest you to move to some nice lush coastal town called Gioia Tauro, where my dad family is from (we call it the Bayreuth of Italy here).
I have nothing interesting to say to fill a blog, i chose my nick cos i set up an import export business between Korea and Southern Europe and i’ve been bordering criminal for most of my life, that’s it
yuna yes it’s a strange world isn’t it ? my partner lives in the Italian speaking part of switzerland and i have also an american ex wife who has a teenage son i basically raised for 10 years whose biological father is a second generation kyopo…not bad for anti multiculturalist like me LOL
and yes Italy is the most Asia phile country in Europe, i started watching anime at the age of 5 in 1979
#42 that is all perfectly calculable.
however the x-factor is the “boys over flowers” – boys with ajuma perms going around in fur-collared suits? ^^ puttANa,,,man, draw a line!
i guess adding i downloaded the whole Davichi discography won’t help my case either
hmm. i guess it’s fitting that finally we have a potential non-korean koreanophile on this site and he turns out to be a italian stallion with a sop-side who’s man enough to admit to such full-on travesties.
Yuna,
Freudian slip?..
soon the golden dust of Hallyu will cover the shores of the West and (back to the topic) even N. Korea…where christiniaty failed (to soften the crazy old bitter ajoshi) Brown Eyed Girls, Park Dara and Lee Min Ho will succeed
Hallyu’s initial foray into the land of Koguryo and naengmyeon was a bit of a downer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLWo-60lcCU
MEGA KULT !!!
Stalinist eurodance-flavoured k-pop…this looks like a Ladytron video after munching on 6 pounds of datura.
WK
Hallyu’s may have been, but Ric Flair’s wasn’t…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJKJSGq1z_M
no.
not freudian, and not a slip.
how about wittgensteinian non-literalism?
Wangkon same event, same shocked faces. Teaching north Korean elite the samba is not a good idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzHBvBxG_7U&feature=related
Here is an even rarer segment of the event as “Beautiful Lands” is being song. The north Korean women in particular took to the singer until she started to display particular decadent “imperialist” tendancies towards the end…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTlRjOvntUc
When I say rare, I mean that these are not the Baby Vox or Shinwha performances that have been seen by most. I’m still searching for all the performances of this unification event that was held in Pyongyang. Just to study the faces of the crowd tells so much about the cultural rift between the two twins.
Again the vulgar confusion of metaphysics and religion! Not sure why the fallacy persists. I spot it in every religious discussion.
Religious faith is belief in a systematic set of highly particular propositions, not to be confused with the mere cognitive position that some “god” may exist. Remember, the former comes with massive truckloads of baggage, of which there’s simply no irreligious, atheistic equal; the latter doesn’t.
Acropolis7,
Understood. However, if I took my grandparents from the 50′s ROK and transported them to a Baby Vox concert (circa 2001, of course), they would be in stunned silence as well. I think my grandpa would actually throw his dried squid at the stage and yell at them to cover-up… hahaha.
if i had taken my grandpa to an average club in Milan he’d have been a very happy man
My maternal grandfather was hardcore from the shigol. We were all scared of him. My aunts and uncles would never dream of putting him in a rest home.
Wow the guy was crazy brave. Religion, well, this guy or another guy might have done it no matter what their religion was, or at least if they’d had another religion. Brendon nice to see your lawyerly skills are up to snuff enough to turn this into a thing about “liberals” hating on Sarah Palin and religious people. Lol. And thanks to Keith for the assist…
The OP is right seems to me to worry about what the Chinese might do about this kind of thing.
Also I guess this also shows how quickly Jesus (or some version thereof) will overtake the North once his Word is set loose in that land. Main reason being that it’s overall a religion about love and salvation, about a for the most part loving god and about caring for one’s neighbor, the meek inheriting the earth and so on, the very stuff they must be starved for. Plus churches provides a community and support group. I bet it’ll be a huge hit once available–this shows how eager the proselytizers are to get going. Chomping at the bit, rushing the gait. Should be a good thing, and could tilt a unified Korea toward the US.
Here’s a bold proclamation: I bet north Korea will be 45% Christian within 5 years after the Christian faith is legalized. And it could be more like 60%.
Widespread conversions, RH? Maybe so, but the missionary connections that I have inform me that North Koreans are not easy to convert because they feel that they’ve tricked once and are not about to fall for being snookered again.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Didn’t say nuthin’ ’bout no Sarah Palin. Jus’ Christians.
Ah yes, I remember the days when I was proud to make such statements. Nowadays I get more enjoyment out of being able to have associates toiling away 24/7 on projects I oversee from home. Thanks, technology! And a shout out to Father Time…
I can easily see that. Especially considering that prior to the division, the North was Korea’s Christian heartland. There’s a reason they used to call Pyongyang the “Jerusalem of the East.”:
http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2004/06/pyongyang-jerusalem-of-east.html
No need to explain; you’re an associate at a law firm.
I respect Park. He could be doing this as Jesus told him to do. Sometimes Jesus tells a person exactly what to do. Park could be in God’s plan.
I wish Korean media covers more of him and his story, instead of conveniently forget him. That seems to be what is happening. No TV coverage. Only a small mention in newspapers.
2MB, as a professing Christian, should mention Park. But he will not. 2MB is a politician, more than a Christian. For real Christians, that label is a shame.
Even big churches are silent. Korean churches are afraid that the action like Park’s may bring about a war. However, if it could be God’s work, Korean church should mention Park’s name and pray for him. A nationwide movement for prayer and appreciation for Park should start just about now.
Just about now!
Wow. I’m impressed with my unwashed self. I seems as though I actually triggered a few sensible comments about “faith” related “shit”.
P.S. “Jesus” doesn’t “talk” to anybody. That’s just psychobullshit. Think about the science involved in “god” getting his ideas transmitted into a meatbrain.
My dear wookinponub, superseding science is precisely why they call those events “miracles”.
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