LPG-electric Cars in Korea . . .

by R. Elgin on December 22, 2009

in South Korea

The first fleet of LPG-electric hybrid taxis have begun service in Seoul.  The car is a result of a Hyundai-Kia Motors-Korea LPG Association collaboration and reflects the government’s desire to both keep Korean car makers competitive in global trends and to reduce auto emissions in Korea. 

Some cities, like New York, have had protests (taxi fleet owners) against the move towards hybrid taxis (due to a shortage of hybrids and “Hybrid cars may use less fuel, but those savings go to the drivers, not the owners“). Despite this, the momentum for hybrid cars is growing.  Hyundai has begun taking pre-launch orders for its Elantra LPI (Liquefied Petroleum Injection) cars, due in 2010.  (Much thanks to Hybrid Car Review)

{ 66 comments… read them below or add one }

1 gangpehmoderniste December 23, 2009 at 12:23 am

cool, Seoul cabs are indeed very modern and efficient, it would help if they also had a driver familiar with the geography of Seocho and Gangnam

2 Robin Hedge December 23, 2009 at 2:02 am

This is very good news. Korea seems to be waking up to the fact that it needs to make dramatic improvements fast in energy efficiency. To that end something like %75 of the stimulus was put toward “green” projects. It’s going to be money well spent I believe, because of the climate but also because the world is going to have a hell of a time substantially increasing oil production from here, at least until there’s some technological breakthrough.

3 NetizenKim December 23, 2009 at 5:26 am

Asia is outspending the US 3-to-1 in clean tech investments overall.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/11/asia-to-outspend-usa-in-clean-technology-energy.php?campaign=th_

4 NetizenKim December 23, 2009 at 5:57 am

Check out this commercial of the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. Awesome soundtrack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bIqobW_9jU&feature=related

5 NetizenKim December 23, 2009 at 7:29 am

Meanwhile, back in the Homeland, Senator Dianne Feinstein (Dem-PR of Cali) is blocking huge solar and wind farm projects in the Mojave Desert region because of conservation reasons.

Folks, this is what happens when political leaders in China are engineers and physics PhDs and our own leaders in the US majored in basket-weaving.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/business/energy-environment/22solar.html?em

Also, Chucky Schmucky Schumer (Dem- NY) is absolutely shocked that wind turbines parts are manufactured in China (like everything else nowadays) and has blocked a major wind farm project in Texas.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/schumer-seeks-to-block-stimulus-funds-for-chinese-backed-texas-wind-farm/?scp=1&sq=chuck%20schumer%20wind&st=Search

6 gangpehmoderniste December 23, 2009 at 7:33 am

i’m grateful to the current crop of Dem politicos in America….for once ina lifetime we Italians don’t have the most laughable government in the world.

Wonder how the Asian century will play out…

7 thekorean December 23, 2009 at 7:58 am

I resent that. Koreans never relinquished the throne of the most laughable government in the world since 1953. Why, they have a yearly tradition just to ensure they maintain that position! Shame on you whitey. How dare you disrespect Korea like that.

8 gangpehmoderniste December 23, 2009 at 8:27 am

deleted (off-topic)

9 WangKon936 December 23, 2009 at 9:38 am

gangpehmoderniste… bbundaegi?

10 WangKon936 December 23, 2009 at 9:39 am

Good grief… so what if it’s a link to a 10 month old commerical, but seven dislikes?

11 gangpehmoderniste December 23, 2009 at 9:59 am

gooogling bbundaegi…

12 gangpehmoderniste December 23, 2009 at 10:33 am

oh some asshole anti korean poster…no i swear the god i’m not him, i love korea and hell i even think i could live like an ajoshi when i move there. I didn’t encounter there anything but cordiality without the slightest trace of xenophobia or racism. Only thing that really frustrated me was that cab drivers really seemed to be oblivious of Seoul geography and truth to be told in the endless querelle korean nationalists vs engrish teachers i side slightly with the former over the latter…
anyway back to the topic, if major Asian powerhouses move massively to green tech how this will affect their so far good relationship with oil countries ?

13 Koreansentry December 23, 2009 at 11:30 am

Most Anti-Korean are comes from China and Japan, you get rid off these two then there aren’t many Korean bashers out there. This is why it’s important to block any IPs originating from China/Japan/Taiwan.

14 gangpehmoderniste December 23, 2009 at 11:41 am

@ # 13

are you serious ???????????

15 Koreansentry December 23, 2009 at 12:41 pm

@ 14 – Yes. I just did that and killed all trolls at my site.
China blocks foreign sites, so we should return the same favor by blocking their propaganda websites.

16 Brendon Carr December 23, 2009 at 2:45 pm

This is very good news. Korea seems to be waking up to the fact that it needs to make dramatic improvements fast in energy efficiency. To that end something like %75 of the stimulus was put toward “green” projects. It’s going to be money well spent I believe, because of the climate but also because the world is going to have a hell of a time substantially increasing oil production from here, at least until there’s some technological breakthrough.

I’m all for energy efficiency. It’s basically like found money. Korea, in particular, is not at all energy-efficient — an attitude which is somewhat shocking when one considers nearly all Korea’s energy is imported.

Korea’s energy intensity per unit of GDP (i.e., how much energy is consumed to produce Korea’s output) ranks Korea near the very bottom of the OECD 30. According to a paper I found, in 2004 the bottom five were: Turkey, Canada (so much for liberal utopia!), Korea, Poland and Czech Republic. If you’re paying attention, you might notice a certain tendency for, shall we say, dirigiste economies among that laggards’ club.

Making the same economic output with less energy input will improve everyone’s life here in Korea, even though the global warming hysteria is a complete scam. If I were in charge of Korea’s energy policy, I’d commence a massive expansion of the nuclear power-generation industry — nuclear is by far the cheapest input into the Korean power grid, at 39 won per kW/h (compare to coal at 54 won per kW/h). Korea gets 40% of its electricity from nuclear; compare to France’s 75% and we’ve got room to grow.

But as for the world having “a hell of a time” increasing oil production, Mr. Hedge, it’s interesting to note that oil supplies are quoted based on proven reserves. If you can’t explore for oil, whether due to environmental regulations (i.e., in the United States), lack of money for exploration because your kleptocratic government stole all the money (i.e., everywhere with a state-owned oil monopoly), or lack of technology, then the reserves seem to be shrinking.

But we keep finding more and more energy every day, as “what we know” (i.e., the so-called settled science) about petrochemicals and how to extract them becomes surpassed by technological advances. There are the recent Brazilian finds, and now we have discovered there’s a 90-year supply of natural gas under our feet in America, on top of America’s already rich reserves of coal (check out the name “Sasol” to find out what can be done with coal if we need to) and even oil.

I am an optimist. There is a lot of oil waiting to be discovered in the United States, if Americans would only listen to dumb ol’ Sarah Palin.

17 englishmonkey December 23, 2009 at 4:48 pm

Also, Chucky Schmucky Schumer

NK:
I see you get your talking points from whack-job talk show host Mark Levin… A man even conservatives think to be an angry-right-wing loon… it explains a lot!

18 iwshim December 23, 2009 at 5:28 pm

I don’t think Koreans really care. Take a look at any university here, it is an window system. Air conditioning on n the summer – heat on the winter: open doors and windows to the building.

I ask have asked about this before ( to students and the school) but they don’t care.

Why should they?

The government provides schools with subsidized energy.

19 Brendon Carr December 23, 2009 at 5:59 pm

I ask have asked about this before (to students and the school) but they don’t care.

Why should they?

The government provides schools with subsidized energy.

Government intervention to prevent market forces from operating on favored groups does not prompt better behavior by those groups?

20 Darth Babaganoosh December 23, 2009 at 7:35 pm

Most Anti-Korean are comes from China and Japan, you get rid off these two then there aren’t many Korean bashers out there.

True, but what does that have to do with this site? I don’t seem to recall hordes of anti-Korean Chinese netizens posting here.

21 Brendon Carr December 23, 2009 at 11:17 pm

What about all the people who have lived in Korea and worked with Koreans? Do we discount their experiences?

22 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 1:32 am

Brendon,

I wouldn’t say that it takes a genius to say that we can/should drill in the ANWR. It’s pointing the obvious. It takes a lot more brain cells (and courage) to take the approach that T. Boone Pickens has done and call a spade a spade… that reliance on oil as our primary energy source is 1) a dead end and 2) puts way too much of our attention into a region of the world that’s not only hard to understand but is also very dangerous.

Palin scares me. She’s got these cow eyes… this odd and empty look in them that’s more “mid-western” Barbie than statesperson. For the long-term good of the GOP, I hope she disappears and just ends up a footnote in history.

23 NetizenKim December 24, 2009 at 2:38 am

#17
I see you get your talking points from whack-job talk show host Mark Levin… A man even conservatives think to be an angry-right-wing loon… it explains a lot!

Mark Levin is one of my favorite radio talk show hosts.

24 NetizenKim December 24, 2009 at 2:40 am

#16
if Americans would only listen to dumb ol’ Sarah Palin.

When Sarah Palin says “Drill Baby Drill”, Alaskan oil is not exactly what I have in mind…

25 NetizenKim December 24, 2009 at 2:45 am

#16
I’m all for energy efficiency.

That’s my new career goal. To train to be an “energy auditor”. I just need to get laid off first. Should be any day now…

26 gangpehmoderniste December 24, 2009 at 2:48 am

sorry but this drill baby drill thing is actually a pharce: majors around the world have scores of unused lease rights and stock piles of oil are at multi year highs. Simply there isn’t much demand.

The actual growth of physical demand in the boom years of 04-07 all over the world was indeed relatively modest. Only thing that is preventing oil from plunging to around 30 $ a barrel is the cheap liquidity sloshing around the world and the humongous reserves stored by major players in the market (China, a certain investment bank infamous for their ridicolous bonuses etc.).

And on top of that all the natural gas fields getting online around the world, which can more and more easily substitute oil.

This fossil fuel model crisis sorry seems to me a speculative gimmick by what is actually a cartel-like oligopolistic market

27 gangpehmoderniste December 24, 2009 at 2:50 am

@ 24

I find S. P. as attractive as a tax inspection, sorry i don’t go for the white trash milf type

28 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 3:00 am

NetKim,

Do you have a hankering for cougars?

29 JW December 24, 2009 at 3:10 am

deleted (off-topic)

30 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 3:17 am

JW,

How about we work on getting you a twosome first, eh?

You gotta walk before you run… ;)

31 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 3:19 am

sex in general is overrated

That’s very interesting coming from an Italian…

32 JW December 24, 2009 at 3:20 am

Hmnnnn, so they say keeping mum in response to a question is usually an answer in the affirmative. Wangkon, I’ll just refer to you as Awesome Dude from now on… :)

33 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 3:28 am

JW,

Lemme guess… you grew up with hardcore jipsannim parents (I don’t have hangeul writing ability on this computer) and a super nice older sister. You taught and/or played the guitar for the Sunday school kids. Now, you have spent the past 2 years to 18 months on your own and that’s opened up a whole new world for you and you wanna explore.

How I’m I doing so far?

34 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 3:32 am

How *am* I doing…. :P

35 JW December 24, 2009 at 3:45 am

Way off, but what you described wouldn’t have been so bad if it were true…Actually I think I would prefer jipsanim parents over non-religious ones.

36 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 3:47 am

aww shucks… can’t win ‘em all.

37 thekorean December 24, 2009 at 4:11 am

Stop projecting, WK!

38 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 4:18 am

Hey! Scroll up. One out of two ain’t bad.

Neff, sorry for hijacking your thread.

39 WangKon936 December 24, 2009 at 4:21 am

Ooops, I mean Elgin.

40 wookinponub December 25, 2009 at 11:14 pm

Just curious. Where did palin and her istas get all their oil production education and experience?

41 dogbertt December 26, 2009 at 2:59 am

You know, there’s oil under the ground in Alaska, so by osmosis.

Just like being able to peer at Russia gave her superpowers too.

42 Brendon Carr December 26, 2009 at 8:41 am

wookinponub — I don’t have oil production expertise, and neither do you.

I do read, however, fairly widely — and also have clients in the petroleum and alternative energy industries (mostly solar, but also wave power). Through this, I have a client who is a driller. Drills for all kinds of things, using skills and techniques developed for the extraction of oil and natural gas. Been drillin’ for 40 years, he has, and according to this client, thanks to computers, and composites, and improved hydraulics, we can go get gas and oil from all kinds of places we couldn’t before. And that means more gas and oil for us.

I believe him. Since the gloom ‘n doomers have been proved liars, I wonder why we wouldn’t give the optimists a fair hearing?

43 WeikuBoy December 26, 2009 at 9:55 am

“Since the gloom ‘n doomers have been proved liars, I wonder why we wouldn’t give the optimists a fair hearing?”

Because so much of the oil & gas that’s left is under the ground of hostile regimes, and extracting it embroils the West in needless wars. (See, Gulf War; see also Iraq War.)

Because so much of the oil & gas that’s left is under environmentally sensitive areas such as the Alaskan wilderness or the California coast.

Because drill baby, drill keeps the West dependent on a handful of oil companies and ultimately only postpones the day of reckoning when Earth reaches peak oil and then runs out of nonrenewable fossil fuels.

Because a real commitment to clean renewable energy right now is the right thing to do. And deep down, even those persons who make livings directly or (like Brendon) indirectly from drilling know this.

On a personal note: woo hoo! for the past several weekends I’ve been unable to get into The Hole. Something to do with a spammer using certain IP’s. But today, here I are!

44 Brendon Carr December 26, 2009 at 10:54 am

Because so much of the oil & gas that’s left is under the ground of hostile regimes, and extracting it embroils the West in needless wars. (See, Gulf War; see also Iraq War.)

Can’t argue with this — that’s why I favor exploring for energy we can get from friendly regimes like California, Texas, and Alaska.

Because so much of the oil & gas that’s left is under environmentally sensitive areas such as the Alaskan wilderness or the California coast.

Oops — what about the nasty regimes? Are you saying it’s better to deal with them than the spotted owl?

Because drill baby, drill keeps the West dependent on a handful of oil companies and ultimately only postpones the day of reckoning when Earth reaches peak oil and then runs out of nonrenewable fossil fuels.

Earth has encountered a peak oil event once before. You probably don’t know this, but one of the leading sources of energy once was the oil from whale blubber. The whaling industry waned as the whales got all fished out toward the end of the 19th century, and the search for alternatives found us the black gold in use today.

Peak oil will come. And it will lead us to something else. But I don’t suggest that we ought to jump there too early.

Because a real commitment to clean renewable energy right now is the right thing to do. And deep down, even those persons who make livings directly or (like Brendon) indirectly from drilling know this.

You say alternative energy is “the right thing to do”. Why? It costs much more than all our current sources of energy, and thus the alternative-energy choice must offer some pretty compelling benefits to offset the horrendous cost. What’s the benefit, exactly? It makes you feel good? Why is your good feeling of higher priority than the empty stomachs of the folks who will have to take food money and spend it on higher-cost energy?

Don’t just offer the tautology of “it’s right because it’s right”. That’s a nonsense argument. Many of the energy advocates you dismiss, including Sarah Palin, say that investment in alternative energy must be accompanied by investment in the sources we already have — like improving our use of coal (“clean coal”), searching for more oil domestically, and investing in nuclear power (our best clean energy source).

I love the implication that because I have some energy-industry clients (which includes, I note, solar guys) and know a driller, that means I’ve been bought by some conspiracy and therefore any arguments I offer must be dismissed. The whole world is not in some conspiracy against you, Gov. Ventura.

Lawyers are fairly promiscuous. Too promiscuous to be bought off by any conspiracy. I’ll take the driller’s money just as I’ll take the solar-panel utopian’s money. As long as they’re respectful to my associates, bring us interesting legal questions, and aren’t dour prigs, I’m game to do their work. But joining some “team” to promote evil? Come on.

On a personal note: woo hoo! for the past several weekends I’ve been unable to get into The Hole. Something to do with a spammer using certain IP’s. But today, here I are!

Congratulations to you. Now answer my questions.

45 theotherkorean December 26, 2009 at 1:31 pm

LPG hybrids are a bad choice, because here in Korea LPG stations are quite rare(there’s only one in the district that I live). So, obviously getting a LPG car filled up is a pain.

46 WeikuBoy December 26, 2009 at 3:46 pm

“You say alternative energy is “the right thing to do”. Why?

At the risk of repeating myself:

Because, as you acknowledge, peak oil WILL come. It makes a lot more sense to anticipate and prepare for that moment, rather than continue to do nothing and assume some timely solution will magically appear.

If, as you acknowledge, the only choice is between: a) moving toward alternative energy AFTER engaging in a series of costly wars to support terrible “friendly” regimes, meanwhile destroying the ecology of Alaska, California, and a lot of other scenic places – versus – b) moving toward alternative energy INSTEAD of doing those things – I choose “a.”

A true leader, after 9/11, would have called for a crash program to free the West from its current dependence on energy from the Middle East, Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia, etc. Instead Bush-Cheney proposed only a small voluntary increase in auto fuel efficiency. Who did they work for before they were handed the White House by the Supreme Court?

I agree with most of what you said. But let’s not pretend the current dependence on fossil fuels (and the handful of companies that extract them) is the result of the “free market” you conservatives profess to worship, any more than is the Wall Street failed-bank bailout or the ongoing health insurance mess. It’s all about campaign contributions and policy choices and who can (and cannot) afford the best lobbyists, and even the red-state dummies can see that now. (I hope.)

47 Brendon Carr December 26, 2009 at 4:36 pm

I’ve got my own Ed Begley Jr. streak in me, and I’d like an electric car because I believe it’s cool. What I don’t cotton to is the notion that my idea, or yours, should be forced onto everyone. Even the Red State dummies are supposedly still free people.

Why is nuclear power not “alternative energy”, again? It’s clean, it works, and America can do it now. No carbon emissions either. Socialist France endorses nuclear, which is usually a plus in your guys’ books. What’s the problem?

Also, what on Earth did Venezuela, Nigeria and Russia have to do with 9/11?

48 NetizenKim December 26, 2009 at 4:39 pm

Even if Exxon-Mobil or Chevron develops new oil fields in sovereign territory, which may take at least a decade, it’s just gonna go on the spot market. Meanwhile, oil refineries in the US are dropping like flies in a fumigated room due to current market forces.

I just read the other day that Iraq awarded most of the contracts to develop the world’s third largest reserves to the Russians and Chinese. Yes, you heard that right. Bush-Cheney spent two trillion dollars to liberate Iraq and the spoils are going to Russia and China.

I don’t understand why the government can’t subsidize alternative energy. They subsidize stupid shit like corn, which, has led to an obesity epidemic. But you can bet you ass that China is state-sponsoring wind, solar, hybrid/electric vehicles, clean coal, and nuclear in a big way, as part of a grand, strategic policy. This is the Green New Deal that Obama talked about during the campaign but it’s happening in China instead. There’s no way they’re leaving that up to the vagaries of the free market. Meanwhile our tax dollars pay for bailing out failed corporations, two wars, and big bonuses for Wall Street robber barons while real unemployment figures approach 16%.

49 WeikuBoy December 26, 2009 at 6:52 pm

Wow, I never thought I’d say this, but:
Bravo, NetKim

and Brendon, why do you assume I’m anti-nukular? Because I detest Bush-Cheney? Wrong. My outllook on nukular changed the first time I Eurailpassed and saw the way the French, Belgians, and Germans had all their nukular plants right up against each others’ borders. If it’s good enough for the heathen socialist Europeans (on the best continent in the world by a significant margin) then it’s good enough for me.

50 WeikuBoy December 26, 2009 at 6:56 pm

“If, as you acknowledge, the only choice is between: a) moving toward alternative energy AFTER engaging in a series of costly wars to support terrible “friendly” regimes, meanwhile destroying the ecology of Alaska, California, and a lot of other scenic places – versus – b) moving toward alternative energy INSTEAD of doing those things – I choose “a.””

Oops. I mean, I choose “b”. But I assume that would be obvious?

51 Brendon Carr December 26, 2009 at 8:01 pm

Yes. It was obvious. But so much of what you write is so completely obvious, that you could just as well skip it. We get it: Corporations bad. Republicans bad. Midwesterners stupid. Plus bad.

52 WeikuBoy December 26, 2009 at 10:48 pm

OK, first of all a key comment of mine is “awaiting moderation”.
I will NOT put up with that shite, of trying to have a debate with someone whose comments are freely allowed while mine must “await (who knows how many hours of) moderation”. I tried that in the bad old days of Pusanweb; and, well, screw that. If I haven’t proved my good faith and intelligence to the denizens of The Hole, then that’s your loss.

And Brendon, surely dear you know the same can be said back atcha. That we, too, get it: corporations good; rich people plus good; hippies bad; California plus bad; English teachers double plus bad.

Whatever.

53 Sperwer December 26, 2009 at 11:43 pm

@51: My, aren’t we the petulant, self-important little twit. Don’t let the door hit your precious on the way out after you pick up your pissante bag of marbles.

54 wookinponub December 26, 2009 at 11:55 pm

What happened to the idea that oil prices dropped as demand dropped and supply increased? Now it’s ‘you ain’t buying enough, so we’ll charge more for what you DO use’. Tell me that’s just good old conservative, free market love and progressive energy policy. It’s all about extracting maximum wealth from the lower 95%. What I want to know is what the plan is for all that money that no individual can ever spend.

55 hardyandtiny December 27, 2009 at 2:49 am

the tree

56 hardyandtiny December 27, 2009 at 2:53 am

“And Brendon…”

That part cracked me up.

57 Brendon Carr December 27, 2009 at 8:48 am

OK, first of all a key comment of mine is “awaiting moderation”.

I will NOT put up with that shite, of trying to have a debate with someone whose comments are freely allowed while mine must “await (who knows how many hours of) moderation”. I tried that in the bad old days of Pusanweb; and, well, screw that. If I haven’t proved my good faith and intelligence to the denizens of The Hole, then that’s your loss.

WeikuBoy — We’ll miss you! But it will be especially poignant for us, knowing that your reflexive indignation was prompted by the temporary embargo of a single, meaningless comment (new #49, after it’s been sprung from the moderation queue). See ya, sucker.

But in case you come back and see this, it should be noted that the moderation script is a computer program that scoops up all kinds of comments, including mine, somewhat at random. Link-heavy comments get grabbed more, but others do too, depending on content identified in its algorithm. There’s no conspiracy here, Gov. Ventura. As I said before, not everything is a conspiracy or driven by some ulterior motive. Some things just happen.

But let’s see: Reflexive belief that oil companies, Republicans, and “rich people” are to blame for everything, love of Europe as a place where everything is freeeeee!, suspicion of conspiracies against you, and a petulant self-centered streak — tell me, perchance, are you an English teacher?

58 setnaffa December 27, 2009 at 11:28 am

#57, I was thinking _Canadien_ Engrish Teacher…

59 yuna December 27, 2009 at 11:36 am

This is the Green New Deal that Obama talked about during the campaign but it’s happening in China instead.

so why are they pretending otherwise?

60 WeikuBoy December 27, 2009 at 6:45 pm

@Brendon

I take it from your total silence that you have no comeback at all to my points about why renewable energy is the right thing to do. Instead, as with all defeated antagonists you resort to insults; and not only are your insults, such as they are, incorrect (for you are far more predictable in toeing the Palin-Limbaugh party line than I am in pursuing whatever ideology you think I subscribe to – that being the point of my stance in favor of nuclear power, which I’m sure came as a surprise), but when you repeat them they become comically lame. (“Democrat! Teacher!”)

If the facts are against you, yell about the law. If the law is against you, just yell. That seems to impress the denizens of The Hole these days (and I bet it impresses that other great legal mind, TheAmazingKorean, who also spends far more time online than any real lawyer), but it doesn’t impress me.

61 yuna December 27, 2009 at 7:04 pm

If the facts are against you, yell about the law. If the law is against you, just yell. That seems to impress the denizens of The Hole these days (and I bet it impresses that other great legal mind, TheAmazingKorean, who also spends far more time online than any real lawyer), but it doesn’t impress me.

in actual fact, it did impress me, a denizen of The Hole, that you just yelled that you wouldn’t put up with that shite when your comment was waiting moderation, and that The Hole these days is somehow at fault for something i don’t even know.
i think it was impressive.

62 gangpehmoderniste December 27, 2009 at 8:12 pm

If Europe is the best continent in the world, i’ll spend my next holidays on planet Neptune, such a heavenly hotspot for tropical balmy weather and lush wildlife.

Europe is abysmal, all of it, from north to south, west to east. I’d kill myself rather than moving to Germany/Belgium/Sweden etc.

Nuclear energy is ok, very cheap and clean indeed, too bad nobody figured what to do with the waste. Also long term maintenance and disposal of the plants seem to be more and more of a problem in France (the biggest nuclear market in the world).

I’m not against it, i’m just perplexed: it seems to me the exact long-term costs of nuclear energy have not been exactly tallied up yet.

How’s the thing working in Korea so far ?

63 Robin Hedge December 28, 2009 at 1:38 am

It’s not a red state/blue state thing Brendon, and people’s fears about energy supplies have nothing to do with liking or disliking Midwesterners. Btw Obama is a Midwesterner, or almost one. Texas has been making great strides in wind and solar. Pickens, a questionable figure in many ways but you’ll remember the man who got W elected the second time, Pickens himself sees tremendous problems and is generally on the same age as many over at theoildrum.com.

When I look over IEA data it looks scary, like peak oil might not take that long to arrive. The “lots of oil” we have isn’t so much when you consider how much we’ll need, and how the majority of large fields are in decline. sometimes rapid decline. If climate change turns out to not be a problem then that does help things because we can use dirty tar sands etc, but it seems unlikely that it’s just a big hoax of the Millenium or something. And it’s not just peak oil per se. Even if the world can get a lot of oil at $80/barrel, that’s still a problem. The new oil is expensive, or much of it is. Add geopolitical problems with the high price of most new oil and it’s obvious why alternatives, including nuclear, need to be pushed. It’s too easy to believe that the world has been hijacked by some tree-huggers smoking grass in the woods. If nine out of ten doctors told you a melanoma was about to metastasize on your arm,
would you believe the single dissenter?

I have no doubt that if the world economy expands as a whole, the price of oil is going up, or else it will rise until it breaks some economies, bringing the price back down. But Brendon, why do you think the price rose from 2003 to 2008?

Also we need o be a little careful about confusing electricity with transport fuels, at least until better batteries are developed — another area ripe for gov’t support.

Why gov’t support? Volatility in energy prices, for one thing, means funding for projects that take years can come and go with the caprices of the oil price, so when economies are weak and oil falls the funding dries up just when we need it most. Incidentally this problem also concerns conventional oil exploration and production — it slowed down too much when the oil prices collapsed (after oil demand figures dropped and credit dried up). But the oil companies have money and in the US case already get what are effectively subsidies.
The world faces a renewed Malthusian challenge as billions enter industrialization. If it weren’t for new entrants into the industrialized economy there might not be a problem, since OECD oil demand seems to be peaking. But with rising demand and increasing oil scarcity, we better get a damn good insurance policy. These aren’t things to believe in like a religion, they’re threats with a lot of uncertainty and a lot of danger. Resource scarcity is the most obvious source of friction between societies and nations.

Meanwhile, the price of most alternatives should continue to fall while the oil price by itself will wish to rise. Technologies like enhanced geothermal or some genetically engineered biofuels (from enhanced algae for example), also solar, these should all fall in price, maybe quite rapidly.

Do we really want to be in a world where Iranian mullahs can crash the world economy by halting oil shipments? Do we really want take the risk that the Chinese juggernaut, as dependent as it is on oil, has to take desperate measures to secure its oil.

History does not show us a world where a benign God has given us all we need just in time. On the contrary, history shows us that time and time again societies enter into conflict over land, ideas and resources.

I bet, Brendon, that if the US Republican leadership were making a lot of noise about oil production problems, you might be singing a different tune about this one.

64 Robin Hedge December 28, 2009 at 3:02 am

But, that long ramble said, if good evidence comes in that there’s enough oil or that climate change isn’t a problem after all, or that doing something now will have no effect, for example, I’m open to hearing it, personally, and hope others would be as well.

Oh, and peak oil, well, it’s just one scenario, right? Total’s chief de Margerie or whatever doesn’t believe in peak oil per se but sees a crunch coming in the next three or four years, largely because of underinvestment. Meanwhile non-OECD demand growth is compounding, and a lot of the world is in recession while oil is over $75 a barrel. Now imagine the most obvious case, that oil prices rise as economic activity rises. $100-$120 oil? That’s the bright scenario? I mean I really don’t see why this is a red state blue state scenario since it affects everyone. And this isn’t coming in ten years, in fact twenty-twelve doesn’t seem unrealistic at all. So natural gas, LPG, batteries, hybrids, seem like good stepping stones. And then we also need I believe investment in other energy technologies including nuclear. Maybe we don’t need to worry only about peak oil but especially the volatile road on the way to peak oil. Ending oil’s monopoly on transport seems like a very good idea for countries doing fiscal stimulus, and the whole point is to get prices down below oil and increase the amount of energy everyone can use. Think of computers in the 1975. A joke, right? And computers in 1995. Maybe energy can be like that, with transition fuels/energy helping.

65 NetizenKim December 28, 2009 at 6:20 pm

#59

Opposition to the developed world’s hypocrisy regarding imposed carbon limits and taking climate control seriously in its own right are two different things.

66 yuna December 28, 2009 at 6:55 pm

i know, netkim, as i was linking to the article, i realized the 모순 myself, but i left it as is.
however, reading it actually phrased by your question makes me wonder, if they are..i mean, if they should be..

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