ABC Good Morning America news anchor Juju Chang, a.k.a. “Juju the Jew,” learned her world-conquering ways from her dad, according to Yonhap (via the Korea Times):
Chang’s father, Chang Pal-gi, hates the word, ‘immigrant.’ “I told my children that they are not immigrants to the United States. I told them to live a life with the mindset of being a conqueror,” he said in an interview with Yonhap.
“It’s because I didn’t want them to suffer from the minority complex in a foreign country. So, I told them: You are not immigrants! You’re a conqueror!”
Father Chang was a maverick. Decades ago, he went to the United States. One day he bought a Samsung TV, a rare commodity in the U.S. at that time, and declared: “The Korean products will conquer the American market sooner or later!”
And his son-in-laws bow to him on Chuseok, too!
{ 158 comments… read them below or add one }
hmm……selling out your own daughter to the jew-owned (jowned?) media counts as ‘conquering’?……….was there a translation problem or sumthin?……….if yah cant beat ‘em join ‘em…i guess…..
I wonder if he’s related to Michelle Wie’s father.
this is such a typical korean statement. actually i heard one mother say of her daughter:
“she(the daughter) was accepted to harvard as well but chose wharton because it’s more famous for this particular program”
i wonder if it’s ever the opposite:
“my daughter was actually accepted to the community college for the intellectually challenged adults with learning difficulties in nebraska as well but chose harvard because it is right by our front door”
A conqueror?
Sucking dick to move up the corporate ladder is being a “conqueror”?
Uh… just out of curiosity, but do you have any reason for suggesting that Ms. Chang, ahem, sucked dick to move up the corporate ladder?
yoko, you sure have dove into the MH with a fury… what’s your story?
@5 Because she married a non-Korean, and in his mind, a whore who would do that would suck her way up the ladder no doubt. Right bj (bluejives)?
Wow, talk about a bad piece of reporting. The article cheapens her academic and professional achievements at the expense of its nationalistic message.
Pal-gi… heeheehee.
…not to say that news anchors are anything more than talking heads.
She’s one of the Chosun People.
#5
Let’s call it a hunch. See my comment below.
#7
Uh, no..numbnutz. It’s because I so fucking hate this cliched Model Minority bullshit like everything’s perfect.
So, Chang’s father taught his children swimming. From a young age, Chang got up 5 a.m. in the morning and swarm for one hour before going to school.
This story’s got “Daddy issues” written all over it.
There’s a lot to this that’s not being said. I’m sure it also took a lot of beatings to produce “Juju the Conqueror”.
Please pass the Plexiglass shield and plastic sheeting while all the Koams enjoy a self-administered spew.
So, to answer Robert’s question, you are suggesting that Juju sucked her way to the top because of your hate and views on race. I guess I wasn’t completely off.
hmm…..’netizenkim’……..are you perchance ‘jew-wise’?
I agree with NetizenKim once again. Not about the “sucking dick” part! Juju Chang converted to Judaism, and everyone knows Jewish wives don’t.
All of Daddy Chang’s four daughters “married American”, which presumably means not ethnic Korean. Probably all white guys, since those are the only “real Americans” in Koreans’ minds. Sounds to me like a rather strong comment on these Korean-American daughters’ assessment of their father as a role model for husband-and-father material for American children.
thekorean — Are you sure that making your children (who might be daughters) the “most beaten” children in your neighborhood is the wisest choice? Granted, “most beaten” in an affluent American neighborhood context probably includes just making a frown at them from now and then, but are you sure you want to invite the comparisons?
The Korean – you said you don’t allow ads on AAK because you don’t want any OrientalBride.com-like banners on your pages… that post and what Brendon just asked makes me wonder, are you going to (try to) beat into your children the idea of keeping the bloodlines clean? …or will interracial mixing be permitted?
He sounds like one crazy ajeoshi…
This has more to do with human biodiversity than anything else.
Why do you care what Koreans do with their own children?
#18
He sounds like one crazy ajeoshi…
I reckon he was a typical, old school asshole of a father who probably regretted at one point that all his children were girls. So he raised his daughters as if they were sons.
When White chicks have Daddy issues they usually go off and make porn involving Big Black Cocks. But I guess uber-ambitious, Model Minority stereotype fulfilling Korean girls react a little differently. They go off and marry some schmuck named “Shapiro”.
The mother is positively gushing that all her daughters are married to “Americans” and that the son-in-laws are “well-mannered” and that these White boys bow to the father on Chuseok. This is code for “my husband wanted sons”. It is also code for “I am glad my daughters did not marry someone like my husband”.
Within the background story behind every Asian girl with a dorky, wimpy White guy you will find a controlling, ego-maniac father who probably beat his children and wife too.
the Korean, you better listen to what Brendon said.
I can’t blame the 1st generation too much because they really didn’t know better. What the hell did they know about raising children in the New World? Not a God damn thing! But it would behoove the 2nd generation to not repeat the same mistakes.
-”They go off and marry some schmuck named “Shapiro”.”-
hmm……sounds like you are ‘jew-wise’……..
it’s amazing how a story like this can bring out the worst in everyone commenting here. too bad no one’s found a way to make a nickel from every conjecture.
Have some compassion for these girls. They go to top schools and come out and find out that their dating pool is very tiny–on top of that they have to compete with ambitious good looking women from ever social tier vying for their potential mates. On top of this–these girls have to race against a time clock–around 30 years of age. A lot of these girls are unattractive and we ought to be grateful that a lot of other men from different nationalities actually find them attractive. Hey–at least it is not me paying the damn alimony, child support and car payments. Don’t be hating my brothers–take your paychecks and go enjoy life when you visit Korea. If you still post hate comments–don’t be a hypocrite–do your duty and actually date a American Korean girl.
looks good for her age
Surely the gods of irony will guarantee that Netizen Kim will one day walk in on his 16-year old daughter while she’s on the receving end of some rumpy-pumpy from a pasty-white Eminem clone, and NK’s head will explode a la Scanners.
Let us bow our heads and say a silent prayer for bluejives’ cat, who was on the receiving end of a 30-yard punt when jives read that line about all four Korean daughters loving the white meat.
Cornfed stalks of American football maxi padded sports aside, . So can we finally agree that the Japanese Islanders need to stop exploiting Koreans and fess up’ that they are just doomed drifter oppurtunists devils that should be sunk in the Pacific ocean along with their Jap Empire!
… Sorry my grandad channels me sometimes . Being an WW2 vet and all.
Not even sure what that means A-7.
Nice!
Nothing unseemly about sucking dick – at least he didn’t raise a whiney 2nd gen. kyopo with racial inferiority issues, right NK? In my eyes, he’s a real Kyeong San Do sanai type (and if he’s from Cheola Do, he’s redeemed himself.)
Wow, a sudden popularity. I can’t handle it.
You mean comparisons to Chang’s (and perhaps Wie’s) father? Let’s put it this way — if beating guaranteed success at the level of Chang, my children will never have an unbroken limb. She’s a great success story, and I have nothing but admiration for her.
I have always maintained that if I have a daughter, she will be locked up in her room until age 18, and then will be sold to a nunnery afterward. Any man who comes 100 yards near her will get a sniper bullet in his head.
In all seriousness though, my objection to the “orientalbride.com” was the o-word and the mail-order-bride insinuation. I am 100 percent committed to equal opportunity dating, with one condition — my offspring will continue the jesa every year.
One of his son-in-laws should refuse to go to this Kim JongIl’s house on Chuseok, just to show this dictator that America is a free country.
That is until this dictator’s daughter, his wife, does something “special”.
See, this dictator only makes his daughters’ lives difficult. They have to kowtow to their husbands so they get along with their crazy father’s game.
I feel sorry for them.
@ # 22,
Sumo, excellent point. Never underestimate a successful man’s desire to get a blonde bimbo as some measure of compensation for all those years of toiling at school and the board room.
‘Sounds to me like a rather strong comment on these Korean-American daughters’ assessment of their father as a role model for husband-and-father material for American children.’
your poor mother. if she only knew what you were saying about her by marrying a korean.
where did you go to school, congo u?
what an idiot.
#29
I can’t believe you bond with your fiancee over such shared “values” such as mutually agreeing to beat your future children in the name of material success.
Ms Chang is an exception, NOT the rule. For every Ju Ju Chang or Yo Yo Ma or whatever, there are hundreds or thousands that fall through the cracks. You just don’t hear too much about that because the Korean-American community is too good at sweeping shameful things under the rug.
Being overly forceful about your future children’s success, you are actually courting disaster. Read this:
So, Chang’s father taught his children swimming. From a young age, Chang got up 5 a.m. in the morning and swarm for one hour before going to school.
Boy, that sounds like fun, doesn’t it? I like swimming but everyday before school at 5 in the morning? They’re gonna hate your fucking guts.
You want your kids to say later on, when they are grown up: my old man was a great role model whom I could talk to. You don’t want them to have conflicted feelings about you because you were also tyrant.
I find a lot of Korean-Americans are really not that smart or intellectually inclined for all our community’s over zealous focus on education and success . Many young kids get fatigued by academic overload, most of which is mind-numbingly stupifying shit like studying for standardized tests. So they deliberately make themselves stupid, talk in ebonics, and fuck up.
Ms Chang’s example, furthermore, is not “excellence”. She’s a news anchor, a glorified attention whore…not a Nobel prize winning scientist or a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. Your idea of excellence is different from mine.
You’re gonna fuck up your kids. You’re more likely to create another Cho Seung Hui or someone like that girl who burned herself to death in her college dorm.
You cannot serve both God and Mammon.
My dad beat the shit out of me. I turned out okay… I guess.
I remember my mom telling me as a kid not to tell my teachers where the bruises came from or else I’d be sent to some black foster family… hahahaha. Well, it’s funny now since so much time has passed…
Guess why we can bond over it, NK — because we both went through that stuff and both of us recognize the good it did to us. We are living examples of how kind of success that strong discipline can bring. (Sorry to be immodest, both of us are pretty darn successful compared to our folks at our age.)
I will agree with you on this point: the educational philosophy that I have in mind is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. It has a potential to destroy a child (literally, via suicide) if not applied carefully. And too many Korean parents just don’t know what they are doing. I don’t have time to list all the typical mistakes that Korean parents make, so I’ll just to give one example. Many Korean parents drive their children hard, but do not cultivate the mental toughness at young age in order to handle that sort of drive. And mental toughness often derives from physical toughness. So actually, I’m pretty impressed that Chang’s father made Chang swim every day — he knew what he was doing.
Sure, I can agree that our ideas of excellence can be different. One of the things my father has done with his life is broadcasting, so I know firsthand what amount of work goes into being a good news anchor. You have to be pretty darn talented and hard-working. If my child can become the next JuJu Chang, s/he is a success in my book.
Actually, a recent NYT article encapsulated my preferred approach pretty nicely — children should be treated just a notch about dogs. Link
a notch *above*…
Dammit, the link doesn’t work. Here’s another try: Link
Sorry to spam the board, but the money quote from the article:
My two cents. Wasn’t corporal punishment pretty standard in North American society like thirty years ago? My best friend in my early elementary school years was Ken across the street. White kid. He told me that his parents set him up in a private school where they would wack offenders in the buttocks with a wooden paddle that had holes in it.
Any ways, Koreans are not the only offenders here. Many ethnic minorities wack their kids.
Russell Peter’s stand-up act on how white people should beat their kids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
Funny shit.
Wow, 39 comments and no one has called out yokohamaet (“jew-owned media”) or NK (“They go off and marry some schmuck named Shapiro”) for being rabid anti-semites? Fucking incredible.
Can someone please “out” these motherfuckers so we can know who their identities really are?
Nice website ya’ll got here.
DLB
I went to a public elementary school in the mid-80′s that had a teacher who employed corporal punishment on occasion (and only after he got parental consent), typically in lieu of the ‘penalty’ of suspension. As far as I know, most parents gave permission when their kid was referred to this teacher.
Good times.
Wow, six years and no one has called out [50 commenter names] for being rabid anti-Koreans? Fucking incredible.
Can someone please “out” these motherfuckers so we can know who their identities really are?
Nice website ya’ll got here.
TK
DLB,
Have you ever run into this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNkDpe13fAY
It starts at 1:12.
TK – I’ll add you to the list of anti-semite apologist on this site. You’re welcome.
WK – Yeah, I also loved The Family Guy’s “I Need a Jew” episode. What your point?
DLB
No point! Let’s just all have a good chuckle every once in awhile.
Life is short… let’s laugh more! I bet you an Israeli shekel that there’s something like that in the Talmud.
… and TK isn’t an anti-semite… He’s in the legal industry in NY for crying out loud!
^ agreed exactly. It’s all in good fun.
thekorean,
You have to stop agreeing with me right after my comments! Someone might think you are my sockpuppet!..
Let’s not discriminate. Let’s call out all the rabid anti white, anti black, anti Japanese, anti Chinese offenders as well. We can killfile them.
Then a handful of us will remain to carry on intelligent, on-topic discussions.
Oh, great, now we’re entering New York jew lawyer territory. This just keeps getting better and better!
I’m waiting for someone to ntoe that the New Israeli Shekel is actually minted in Korea, which must of course be some plot by all those international jew financiers!
Shalom, chaver.
DLB
TheKorean,
You are just going to have to accept that Koreans (and maybe Chinese) are the default okay to make fun of group here at TMH…
Just like white people and comedians in North America. Comedians can make fun of white people and anything really goes. Something like that.
^agreed exactly. Go Trojans!
kekeke.
‘the New Israeli Shekel is actually minted in Korea, which must of course be some plot by all those international jew financiers!’
interesting thing about israeli money and stamps is they put arabic writing on their money. usually says israel and a description of whatever’s pictured. the jews are experts at psychology as they continue their land grab while creating ghettos for brown people.
DLB,
You can safely add pawi to the list.
ain’t nothing i wrote that’s untrue. israel is the new and improved south africa. too bad for them their running out of time.
NetizenKim
It depends on how you cook them. There are no hard and fast rules in modern cuisine.
Pawi wrote: “the jews are experts at psychology as they continue their land grab while creating ghettos for brown people.”
During my year in Jerusalem, I saw Arabs whose color ranged from brown to white and Jews whose color ranged from black to white. Nearly half of the Israeli Jews stem from Arab countries and tend to be darker than the Ashkenazi Jews, and the Ethiopian Falashas tend to be black or dark brown.
Anyway, whatever one thinks about the Israeli-Palestinian issue, it’s not a matter of skin color.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
hmm……interesting, pawkirogii……..you might wanna read ‘the culture of critique’ [full pdf]……….
#35
Children’s education has become like an arms race amongst yuppie and even not-so-yuppie types nowadays. Everyone thinks their kid is so special and will spare no expense for this, that, and the other thing. In the KA community, this obsession with education is reaching ridiculous proportions. Children can no longer be just children anymore, they MUST start preparing for a lifetime of the rat race right after they graduate from being a toddler.
What are some of the socio-economic consequences of this? When you have so many eager rats all striving for the same things, prices shoot up. You have to be a friggin millionaire to own a home in some areas. Why? Every damn Korean family wants to reside in a good school district. It’s getting much tougher to get into the top schools nowadays. It’s simply not enough anymore to have straight A’s, perfect SAT scores, etc. Too much competition. Meanwhile, tuition continues to defy gravity. By the time one enters the Real World, they start off with a mountain of debt. Yet the rats just keep on multiplying.
And what has “education” become? It’s simply a meal-ticket. Medical school? Law schools? Business? Engineering? Glorified trade schools. If one speaks of passion for learning, knowledge, and truth, one gets a blank stare.
I want no part of this insanity.
Are there any contrarians amongst us?
The road to hell is crowded, filled with pushy, eager, self-centered idiots all stepping over each other to reach hell.
This is not a dignified existence. It’s herd and trough mentality.
@59 — Is this a back-handed endorsement of Basket-weaving Studies?
#41,
Yeah, not funny one bit. Some of the other comments are a bit much, too.
DLB,
Did you hear about the international fluoridated bagel consipracy!?!?!
It’s world domination I tell ya… via popular breakfast foods.
yokohamaet is well on his way to joining wjk, so don’t fear. NK, on the other hand, well, he just can’t help it, you see, as the post is a collision of his two greatest hang-ups: Korean women having sex with non-Korean men and Jews. He just needs someone to pat him on the head and tell him everything will be alright.
Besides, NK often offers something spot on, like his post number 59.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
perception is often reality. i never said israelis were white but people think of them as white. israel’s days are numbered as more obamas take the reins of power.
israel is a criminal state hiding under the cloak of victimhood as they protest a freeze that ain’t no freeze. i feel no sympathy for them.
Perception is ‘reality’ when it accurately perceives. Otherwise, it’s distorted. You didn’t explicitly state that Israelis were all white, but you did cast the issue in terms of skin color by referring to “ghettos for brown people.” My initial remark thus opened by noting that “During my year in Jerusalem, I saw Arabs whose color ranged from brown to white.” My point? The issue is not one of skin color.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Perhaps. But then again, at least they earned and kept their independence with their own blood, and as far as I know, there weren’t tons of Jewish soldiers in Wehrmacht uniforms at Stalingrad or keeping watch over/abusing Allied POWs in German prison camps.
-”But then again, at least they earned and kept their independence with their own blood”-
yah…..but its not like they did it completely independently…….they required and used help from others……and they still use help from others today……plus they used terrorism as well: kind david hotel bombing
-”and as far as I know, there weren’t tons of Jewish soldiers in Wehrmacht uniforms at Stalingrad or keeping watch over/abusing Allied POWs in German prison camps.”-
hmm…….im not sure what youre trying to say…….if youre trying to diminish or detract from korean independence by pointing to koreans that were impressed into the japanese military during ww2 thats fine…….i dont really care…….but if you tried the same kinda guilt or detraction by association type thing about jews youd be viciously denounced and attacked like above
@67 good one Robert.
Yeah, I liked it.
you may have liked it but it had nothing to do with what i wrote. where’s all the ETs running around with their accusations of straw man?
israel’s days are numbered. sooner or later, the changing power dynamics of the world will compel them to vacate the occupied territories. i’m hopin for an embargo enforced by japan, korea, and china.
I’m not sure about this. And if there ever will be an embargo or something, it will be by Russia, China, perhaps Europe. The US will of course oppose it, along with India and some other countries.
Most Koreans in America tends to marry Koreans in America, this is similarly in China and Japan too. I’m Korean Australian, and I’ll be marrying to Korean soon.
Yeah, Koreansentry, you can have one of those the white guys reject.
Once we only had baduk to make nutty prophecies, but now we have pawi. Give it a break, son, geopolitics ain’t you bag. Take a look at Sudan and the imminent referendum on independence in the south for an example of how rising Chinese power can’t keep one if its biggest allies in Africa together.
And to what end does throwing its lot in with non-democratic China help Korea? Wouldn’t Beijing also see the danger of backing an irredentist claim when a number of its own minorities want out? Korea’s course as a middle commercial and military power in East Asia is now aided by the fact that many (including leaders here in SE Asia) respect its lack of preaching and willingness to get stuck in and do business. I don’t think taking the moral high ground is in Seoul’s strategic wheelhouse any time in the near future.
There is a long way to go before your grand alliance could be realized. Just look at how long it has taken Europe to get that far, and they have much more in the way of common interests and institution building, yet are still struggling to cobble together a coherent common defense or foreign policy.
NK, I got nothing but love for you. Keep that in mind as you read the following.
You are talking to a guy who waltzed into an above-average HS at the age of 16 without knowing English, graduated as a salutatorian and went to one of the best colleges in the country. You can never convince me there is too much competition in America.
You speak of a rat race, but what of it? It is a folly to think that anyone can escape this competition. Everyone needs to what what they love, everyone needs to earn money, everyone needs to survive. Beating the competition gives one the best chance to do what one loves and get paid for it. You can complain all you want about “too much competition,” but the day when sloth beats out hard work, when softness beats out toughness, when “good enough” beats out “the best that one can do”, will never come.
Given the context, I agree with you, TK. Too much competition is often an excuse for inadequacy.
Is that why all your women are busy getting banged by Tiger Woods and every other black guy out there?
No, I don’t think anyone will ever accuse the US public school system of setting the bar too high.
If those are my women, Minjokjuuija, just imagine how much I’ve made from pimping them…But you have the kernel of a good idea there. Why not pimp Korean women to Korean men? Just imagine what they’d be willing to pay. You wouldn’t be able to walk anywhere without seeing barber poles, massage parlors, room salons, fliers with pictures of Japanese models and booking clubs. What a novel idea!
Minjokjuuija, stop projecting… As a white American, I don’t see other white women, American or otherwise, as “my women.” …just as I don’t see Korean women as yours. …oh, and just as they don’t see themselves as yours. So, this attempt at race-baiting doesn’t work on me. I suppose there are many who’d agree with me.
And even if it did, Tiger isn’t black. Just ask him.
P.S. Interesting choice of handle.
By the way. lest I be misunderstood above, don’t assume that I was broadbrushing Korean women as hoes. There are still some who will have nothing to do with the sex trade or marrying wealth. There are good decent women out there who marry for love with pure hearts and minds. I have nothing but respect for them and their foreign husbands.
You speak of a rat race, but what of it? It is a folly to think that anyone can escape this competition. Everyone needs to what what they love, everyone needs to earn money, everyone needs to survive. Beating the competition gives one the best chance to do what one loves and get paid for it. You can complain all you want about “too much competition,” but the day when sloth beats out hard work, when softness beats out toughness, when “good enough” beats out “the best that one can do”, will never come.
My point is this: is there anything else besides the old Model Minority formula for success? What is success anyway? Why must we cling to the same old formula? Is it because of a lack of imagination? Why must we have the same narrow definition of success?
Your child isn’t even born yet and you and your future spouse are already conspiring to put a straight-jacket on him or her. Your reasoning is: well it worked for us so why shouldn’t it work for our children also? For God’s sake man, have the child first and figure out what their innate gifts first are before you jump the gun and end up choking it to death.
And a child’s most important business is having fun, not being burdened with an intense regimen of this, that, and the other thing that would drive even an adult crazy.
How many kids do you have, NK? Or, are you just pontificating about something you don’t know shit about? You know, like you usually do.
I always know what I am talking about. And I am prepared to back it up.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/stuart_brown_says_play_is_more_than_fun_it_s_vital.html
I realize that I’m a bit off on timing, but…
Really?
There might be, but why do I need to explore that when I already have the method that works?
Because again, the day when sloth beats out hard work, when softness beats out toughness, when “good enough” beats out “the best that one can do”, will never come.
What’s narrow about it? All I want for my child is for him/her to do what s/he wants and get paid for it. I don’t care what s/he does (as long as it’s not criminal,) and I only want him/her to get paid as much as s/he happy about it. That’s a rather broad definition.
Don’t worry, we will surely do that. But the moment we find that gift, we will maximize it — and that involves structure and discipline.
The trick is to make the child think that the structure and discipline is fun. (And if beating is necessary to get to that level, so be it.) And anyone is driven crazy by it, well, that person just mentally soft.
TK is determined to make his child happy and successful even if it means making him a miserable failure.
thekorean, if it is true, as you’ve alleged in #78 above, that you came to the States at sixteen ‘without knowing English‘, yet still excelled, then you are, by virtue of your own example, more adept than most. Truly, if beatings from your family were necessary motivation to succeed at the goal of your increased academic achievement, then they seem to have indeed proved useful.
Yet, I wonder what makes you think that this type of conditioning will prove useful in all cases. If you accept that not all persons are alike, and that they are rather differently abled and differently motivated, then surely you accept that the corporal punishment you received – and which you believe was so beneficial to your development – may not in fact achieve the result you desire when inflicted upon your child. Or, do you believe that beating is somehow different from all other forms of operant conditioning in that it will always achieve the desired result?
Well, I’ve already pronounced on this — and NK can handle things himself — but I’ll say again that I agree with NK on raising children.
I have two kids of my own who’ve experience Korean elementary school and have reported back to me on the corporal punishment there as well as that used by the parents of their friends.
Moreover, I teach Korean university students who’ve likely been beaten into rote learning, aside from some who’ve grown up in an overseas educational system, and my impression is that most Korean students are so fearful of being punished for getting a wrong answer that they won’t take risks or attempt creativity. I deal with students who’ve been hit, even kicked, for not knowing the right answer. They’re suffering from something like post-tramatic disorder — if I may be allowed an exaggeration.
My wife and I don’t hit our kids. I won’t say that we’ve never spanked them, but that was earlier, when they weren’t yet amenable to reason. The best discipline combines rewards, retraction of privileges, and the occasional spanking if absolutely necessary. Also, it requires open communication — something that Korea lacks, especially between parents and children. Fewer commands, more discussion.
Kids need time to play, the possibility to make mistakes, and the freedom to find their own way. Of course, they need advice from parents, too, who usually do know better, but not as orders enforced by physical punishment.
Is my method right? In ten years, I’ll let you know if this is still working . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
I don’t care that you’re an aracial universalist or humanist. Good for you. I consider white women “your women,” and I consider Korean women “my women.” And many Korean women are ethnocentric, and do see themselves as “my women.” Just as women from other groups do about their own men.
I just want to say, I find this discussion about raising kids very very interesting. Please do go on, as much as possible.
A question (may be stupid) I have is, which would be more effective in changing bad behavior if one had to choose — beating, or having to run 20 laps around a large field? (or something similarly physically demanding) I’m leaning towards the latter…
JW, the answer probably depends on how undisciplined the child has become. Retracting a privilege might be enough. Does the kid love computer games? If so then no games for a week. Or something similar. But if the discipline has been consistent, perhaps you won’t face the problem of bad behavior requiring extreme measures to effect change.
As for running 20 laps around a large field . . . well, the kid ought to be doing that several times a week already, just for the physical (and mental) toughness it’ll instill. On this point, I agree with The Korean.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Once my dad hit me with a boom stick and it broke. True story.
Well,, see, that’s the thing. If physical pain is the effect one is after in trying to discipline a child (assuming this all works of course, which is TheKorean’s contention and which I agree with to a large extent), then is the focusing of pain made possible by beating and spanking the critical point, or is the same effect achievable with better overall psycho physical results if the pain is much less focused but much more lengthened in the amount of time suffered?
My father whipped me pretty mercilously until I turned 5, when I went to live with my maternal grandparents. I was lucky, though. He used to beat one of my brothers senseless. He believed in corporal punishment, but he wasn’t very disciplined about it himself.
I wouldn’t argue that corporal punishment can’t succeed, but it has to be consistent and rational.
There are two issues here. One is what sort of punishment to use. The other is the aim for which it is used. If the aim is to push your children into studying all the time in rote learning routines to prepare for a university entrance exam, then you’ll still likely produce a child that can’t think creatively.
By “you,” I mean anybody.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
yes, that was already all implied by your handle.
Hmnn, I agree the aim is important. For example, a military style training regimen is obviously much more effective at maximizing success in areas like golf or cello. And I think it can be argued that it would be very effective at maximizing one’s ability to do well on standardized exams also. Creativity, much less so.
Pawikirogii: Israel puts Hebrew, Arabic, and English on its currency. That is because those are the three official languages of the country. Let’s not forget that there are about 1 million Arabs who are full Israeli citizens.
Yokohamaet: As for the King David Hotel bombing, the Irgun attacked it as a military target–but not before giving telephone warnings that, for whatever reason, went unheeded. Just like the hijackers gave telephone warnings on Sept. 11, 2001.
Oh, wait, that’s right…
Actually, NK, I’m not saying you are wrong (though a TED video doesn’t prove anything). I pretty much agree with you, but as I don’t have any child-rearing experience, I don’t start talking about parenting as if I do.
Wangkon, a broomstick? Good work. And I thought I was the hero when I snapped Mom’s 2 foot-long wooden spoon (of death), sparing my brothers from it’s wrath forever.
-”Yokohamaet: As for the King David Hotel bombing, the Irgun attacked it as a military target–but not before giving telephone warnings that, for whatever reason, went unheeded. Just like the hijackers gave telephone warnings on Sept. 11, 2001.
Oh, wait, that’s right…”-
hmm……i see……so all alqaeda had to do was give telephone warnings……then 911 wouldnt have been a terrorist attack……..awesome…..nice to know…..hey maybe alqaeda will always give phone warnings from now on…..then we’ll never have any more terrorist attacks…..problem solved
“Why do you care what Koreans do with their own children?”
He’s talking to an American not you.
To your face, naturally. Korean women (with the notable exception of those at The Hole) aren’t completely stupid. They’ve got to keep their options open in case they can’t hook up with a white guy.
Is my method right? In ten years, I’ll let you know if this is still working . . .”
Yes, it works, Dr. Hodges. Take it from Dr. Spock. Run to your search engines, kiddies.
I’ve noticed that everyone is an expert on raising kids until they have one of their own. Then they’re suddenly clueless.
Is that it? Is that what they’re doing while your women go off to college to get banged by the basketball team and get stretched out by black guys?
gbnhj,
It’s true. You can read all about it on AAK! — it’s the next post coming up, and reminiscing on my experience made me more vocal recently about the importance of discipline. But I am certainly not more adept than most. My fiancee will vouch for it.
I don’t believe in the latter. But I will say this — the level of discipline that I want my child to have is unlikely to be something that s/he will attain voluntarily, or even under the threat of a frown or a time-out. Particularly given that both my fiancee and I were strong-headed children who rebelled at every chance, I am projecting that the necessity of solid, regular beating will be likely.
Mr. Hodges,
I should make it clear that my endorsement of physical discipline is not an endorsement of how physical discipline operates in Korea. Often, Korean parents and teachers beat their children/students under wrong condition in an ineffective manner. Trust me, I suffered under those teachers. I was lucky to have parents who beat me mercilessly, but knew exactly when and how to do it in a way that did not lead to timidity like you described.
JW,
It really, really depends on the situation. Maybe I should write a post about it.
Yes, please, TK, write another post. Argumentum verbosium is de rigueur at the Hole.
http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/2009/02/18/logical-fallacy-6-argumentum-verbosium-proof-by-intimidation/
Plus, we were just starting to run out of material to satire.
@JW
i’d take a broken broomstick to the kneeling/holding the math book (that i didn’t crack open for my homework) in the air for 2 hours. quick and painful is better than slow and straining.
I had a long conversation with a Korean-born, European-trained concert pianist who now teaches at an elite music school here in the states. This 30-something lady describes herself as virulently anti-Korea (corruption, illiberality, male chauvinism, venality and racial prejudice were her main issues) and generally refuses to go back. But her views on the connection between corporal punishment and musical achievement at the highest level were entirely in accord with those of TheKorean.
“American kids suck at classical music because they simply aren’t willing to work hard enough.”
I’m sure Russell Peter’s friend Ryan was very creative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
… but creativity without discipline is pretty fucking useless if you ask me.
Oh, one last thing about corporal punishment and music ability. Beethoven and Mozart’s dads beat the crap out of them when they were kids. True story.
hi wangkonhere
slim@112 add to the list the jewish, those from former soveit union and some parts of eastern europe, and chinese and japanese(generally east asian)
due to the nature of the instruments (especially stringed and keyboard not so much woodwind and brass which you cannot even start till later)
earlier education is better and discipline is required at an early age because at the age of 3 you are not going to see why you have to pick up the violin easily when all your friends are out playing. you don’t need the beating. you just need to have a routine for your child’s day.
however, that’s not what i am arguing about.
i am trying to argue that there is somehow the lack of generating a pioneering movement or idea in creative things, despite the comparatively higher quality of achievement across all disciplines. while i hope this is just because of the short history. but something is telling me that that might not be all the explanation, and juju’s dad’s kind of approach to life is not fostering original thinkers…(while certainly not fostering losers)
I’d say pawi STILL is not too old to spank.
Unlike the Honduran and Salvadoran students who waltz into our high school after a long-distance train ride from Central America, I’m sure you knew some English. I’ve yet to meet a Korean teen who didn’t. If you were an average Korean student, then you arrived with at least 4-5 years of study. You couldn’t understand or speak English fluently, but you had a large passive vocabulary and understanding of grammar that enabled you to make rapid progress in the language.
^agreed. But that still did not put me in a better (or even an equal) position as all other American students who spent their entire lives in America.
I do believe that, contrary to what many NSETs think, it was the English education in Korea that saved my ass. But that discussion for another day — I’m writing a post on that on AAK! anyway.
Russel Peter’s routine is funny, but I doubt that his friend Ryan was really very creative. Creativity requires order and discipline. However, beating isn’t the only way to instill discipline in a child, and I certainly don’t think that it’s the best way.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
JH, I would agree w/that.
Sonagi at #117,
It depends on what age bracket theKorean belongs to and at what age he immigrated. If he’s from my age bracket (mid-30s) or older–and he immigrated in primary school or earlier–he’s likely telling the truth, as English instruction for primary school for earlier were rare in the 80s or earlier.
I meant to say “or earlier” not “for earlier.”
TK’s
You are talking to a guy who waltzed into an above-average HS at the age of 16 without knowing English, graduated as a salutatorian and went to one of the best colleges in the country.
Is the 1.5 G’s version of the 1.0 G’s
I came to this country with only $100 in my pocket and….
@Won Joon Choe:
There were plenty of kids’ hagwons in Seoul and other urban areas, and parents who can afford it continue to pay for after-school English lessons to supplement the meager 80 minutes a week of English classes in school. TK didn’t dispute anything I said. I’m guessing that he is in his late 20s.
Yeah, sounds about right. I can already see that I’ll drive my children crazy with that story.
Choe BHSN, I only speak the truth.
Not only that but he knew how to waltz too. Impressive.
He noted in his previous comment and has mentioned before that he immigrated at the age of 16. Even if he didn’t learn a word of English until middle school, which is unlikely, he still received 4 years of secondary instruction in school plus whatever private tutoring or hagwon lessons his parents arranged for him. I’d be surprised if his parents didn’t prepare for their family’s immigration to the US by providing for their children the best English lessons they could afford.
correction: 4 years of instruction in secondary school
Believe it or not, not really.
And I love waltz.
But did you have to show off by waltzing into high school on your first day?
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Translation: Yeah, okay, I did go to hagwons, but they weren’t one of the top franchises.
But if you can really, truly waltz, TK, then take your beau down to the Lone Star State and waltz across Texas . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Sonagi at #126 emphasizes:
“He noted in his previous comment and has mentioned before that he immigrated at the age of 16.”
I saw that I had missed this immediately after I responded; and indeed overlooking a crucial piece of given information is a recurrent pitfall with online dialogue–where haste rules above everything else.
Nonetheless, even if theKorean immigrated in his mid-teens, I don’t really see a strong reason to doubt him. I agree with you that he seems to be in his late 20s, which would mean that he immigrated in the mid-90s. Now, having been in Korea for some time in the mid-90s, I don’t recall that there was the same frenzy about English learning that exists there now.
On a related topic: I think you may grossly over-estimate the efficacy of English education in Korea, esp. as it is conducted through the secondary school systems. Having encountered many products of that system, I can tell you its utility is only slightly above nil.
^Nope. I did not go any hagwon during my high school year because it started at 7:30 a.m. and ended at 11 p.m. (There were some insane kids who still went to hagwon after 11 p.m., but not me.) I did go to some hagwon when I was in middle school, but that was not in anticipation of our immigration.
Mr. Hodges,
Now I finally understand why I got those funny looks. I just thought they were all racists.
So, are you gonna beat your kids or what?
There is a far more effective method of disciplining children than beating them. It’s not speaking to them for a period of time.
You’re talking to a former teacher of Korean students in Korea, China, and the US. Korean English education is inefficient in that the product – student achievement – is not commensurate with the effort. However, owing to early exposure and extracurricular tuition, Korean children and young teens appear to be more proficient than their peers in Japan or China. During my 4-year stint at an international school with a student body that was 85% East Asian, I observed that no Korean child over the age of 7 came with zero English and many were able to communicate at an intermediate level.
Are we still on the subject of beating and music ability? I thought this was funny… it was titled, “Canadian Kids are Stupid.”
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9045134375023461562&ei=jB0oS-4Lh5arAvCfhMoP&q=canadian+kids+are+stupid+korean&hl=en#
I have a feeling that it was posted by a Canadian ET.
One last point:
Speaking of Lady Sonagi’s Honduran and Salvadoran immigrants: Even in scenarios where the South Korean (or East Asian for that matter) teen does have some English instruction in secondary school before immigrating, I wonder if the Spanish-speaking immigrant is still not a step ahead of him–given that mastering English would pose the challenge of a wholly alien vocabulary and grammar to the Korean immigrant.
As a teacher in Korea during that time period, I can assure you there was. In fact, it was in the mid-90s that major universities started hiring foreign instructors to teach the new Practical English courses that replaced lecture-style General English. I saw plenty of ECC and Wonderland kiddie hagwons around Seoul, too.
I can back Sonagi up on this. I first arrived in Korea with my wife in 1995, and the rage for English had already begun.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
True. My father was in charge of hiring them for his university in mid-90s. But I already explained what kind of English education I had prior to my immigration. (I immigrated on Thanksgiving Day of 1997.)
It was true as far back as the 1970s.
No, because many Spanish-speaking immigrant children come from very impoverished backgrounds. Many native Spanish speakers do not speak proper Spanish, according to our bilingual teachers, and an increasing number are indigenous Mexicans who speak Spanish as a second language, or worse, have no real native language but at home speak a mixture of Spanish and Mixteco, Otomi, Nahuatl, or something else. After arriving in the US, English is added to the language pot. Indigenous parents are often semi-literate or illiterate in Spanish. A few of our school’s ESOL students have parents who cannot read documents sent home in any language.
thekorean, what did you think of the odd American practice of eating a giant, dry and tasteless bird that required it to be smeared in cranberry gelatin in order to be edible? Culture shock, no?
I might know your dad.
WK, I was so happy to be in America that I would have done anything that Americans did.
Sonagi, yikes. I wonder if you visited my house. What university are you thinking of?
Sonagi at #137,
I am well-aware of your experience as an English teacher in the Far East. So perhaps the discrepancy in our accounts is largely due to the differences in timeline.
To reprise: I am primarily extrapolating from my experience as an immigrant in the 80s, and you seem to be doing the same from your experience as an English teacher in the 2000s. I presume theKorean’s situation lands him in that more hazy middle between those two timelines, and I just don’t think we know enough of the particulars to be sure to accuse him of outright deception regarding his puported deficiency in English when he immigrated.
I can be pretty hard on theKorean at times, but I frankly find it bewildering that someone would accuse him of misrepresenting himself on such a trivial matter, really. (But then you think I am lying about my grammatical deficiencies, even when they are crystal-clear for everyone to see, and one of Marmot’s guest Bloggers have even devoted his precious time to parody!
)
My experience with Korean students in three countries spans from the early 90s to 2006.
No one’s accusing him of deception. I think he is underestimating his English proficiency, probably because his first few months in an English immersion environment were such a shock that he felt like he knew nothing. My Brazilian colleague, whose native-like command of oral English helped her get hired, still feels deficient when I or another staff member speaks quickly or use a word she does not know. The local dialect is also a problem.
Sonagi at #140,
Again, a part of your response it not really on-point. You are speaking of the emerging changes in English instruction at the university level, and not at secondary school level.
Nonetheless, I do realize that the English boom(let) was sprouting with YS’s “se-gye-hwa” shtick. But I just don’t believe it had become diffuse to the point where someone like theKorean would automatically be presumed to have gone through a rigorous English hag-won treatment and ended up quite proficient in English. I had several cousins in his age-group then, and I don’t think any of them were proficient in English to the point where it would give one the type of advantage as an immigrant in one of your earlier posts in this thread.
You know, I’m right here.
Lady Sonagi continues:
“No, because many Spanish-speaking immigrant children come from very impoverished backgrounds.”
I thought you may go there, but to throw throw economics into the mix is to open up an entirely different tangent and muddle the debate–not in the least, because not all Spanish-speaking immigrants are poor nor all Korean immigrants well-off.
Sonagi wrote at #149,
“No one’s accusing him of deception. I think he is underestimating his English proficiency, probably because his first few months in an English immersion environment were such a shock that he felt like he knew nothing.”
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Given the types of charges that are routinely hurled around here, I wasn’t sure.
I suppose your scenario is possible, but I would still give him the benefit of the doubt.
You wrote “the Spanish-speaking immigrant,” which means a typical or representative immigrant. Socioeconomic background has a strong influence on language, so the socioeconomic differences between Mexican and Korean immigrants as a group are relevant.
Sonagi at #154,
“You wrote “the Spanish-speaking immigrant,” which means a typical or representative immigrant.”
Uh, no. “Spanish-speaking” means just precisely that. But then again we have a experiential gap here? All my Spanish-speaking immigrant friends/acquaintances were well-off when they immigrated, and not all Korean immigrants I know were well-off when they immigrated–starting with me, who was raised by a single mom working two jobs. (But I suppose my experiences would be different if I went through public schools in NY or CA as a teen, where there are a lot of poor Spanish-speaking immigrants.) That’s why I wanted to limit and isolate the discussion to purely language issues.
The use of “the + singular noun” in reference to a group of people indicates a typical or representative member of that group.
Lady Sonagi at #156,
White flag.
See how deficient I am in the use of the English language?
“You know, I’m right here.”
You’re obviously in need of a little discipline – speak when spoken to and don’t interrupt your elders when they’re talking about you.
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