Open Thread #129

I like you aaronm. Whatever hat that is you’re wearing, you ought to patent it and sell it in Korea.

Wish you the best, thekorean.

Bad analogy. The later does not exist, certainly not in Korea. But you may just find that out for yourself.

There are many reasons that Americans have lost interest in classical music while Asians are still enamored of it. But, when it comes to music in general, very few think of Asians.

OK, you don’t buy my argument, proper as it is. While great musicians like Herbie Hancock have mastered and then transcended classical music, let’s stick to your jejune point about classical music.

How many great Korean classical composers can you name? Beyond classical, how many great Korean jazz musicians can you name? Composers? Where are the Korean John McLaughlins, Lee Morgans, Charlie Parkers? How many Koreans have been influential in changing the face of music?

Furthermore, how many Koreans would have the opportunity to make a living in classical orchestras in Korea? Why are the opportunities all provided by the west? Why do the serious Korean musicians have to study in the west?

Something fundamental is missing in your equation that you have to beat excellence into a child. It’s a sick philosophy and and erroneous premise that you cannot prove.

But you have succeeded in one thing – debunking my comment in which I questioned your Koreanness. You have exhibited the typical Korean snobbery and false sense of pride over all the things you’ve stollen from the white man. You brought up the tired old Korean “our culture vs. yours” canard. And you wonder why people are sick of Koreans. You have a lot to learn. A couple of years in Korea can disabuse you of these notions, but I’m not sure you’ve got the fortitude to do it.

um, sources, yoko.

No thanks, thekorean, I won’t rise to the bait. If you refuse to support your triumphalist sweeping generalization about Korean-style discipline and will not respond to the counter arguments, then I’m done with your phoney bullshit.

Arghaeri makes the proper points. I raised one civil engineer and one commerical artist. Both attended top notch private universities, and neither needed any beating. The discipline and guidance we provided was sufficient to promote them to the top of their respective disciplines. Both of them learned to play musical instruments and neither of them chose to pursue that as a career. But both were accepted into the schools of their choice and there was competition among them. Thekorean’s argument is what is referred to in logic as a hasty generalization – he is positing a general principle from anecdotal evidence, which is not considered a valid argument.

For more information about the Jewish upbringing you might want to consult mkaplan about his.

abcdefg :”@92: Intrinsic motivation is neccesary but not sufficient, sure. But when is beating a child EVER neccesary? Remember, objecting to the sort of “philosophy” you espouse doesn’t mean I am against any sort of discipline.”

Another good point. Thekorean’s false dichotomy is based on 2 extremes that do not typify either culture. His false premise is that American children are raised without discipline, direction or encouragement, and just allowed to find their own way without any parental guidance or support.

He implies that motivation and natural proclivity are mutually exclusive, but they are not.

My daughter created her own art portfolio as the result of studying what the top art schools in the country were seeking in a student. She did so on her own, through her own efforts. While it was not as colorful or flashy as a layperson might expect, the top schools in the country – Parsons, Cooper Union, Pratt, etc. all acknowledged that she was a major talent and provided immediate acceptance.

These were natural proclivities that Korean parents would discourage, and indeed we were skeptical since we didn’t see how she could make a living at it. But when we understood the magnitude of her talent and accomplishments in that area, we encouraged it.

By contrast, a Korean neighbor of ours would not allow their daughter to pursue her own intersts and forced her to graduate with a degree in pharamacology. No sooner did she graduate then she moved to Korea to teach English, and has been drifting aimlessly since.

The generalization that Korean style discipline is superior to the type of Western-style discipline we applied (despite our Korean backgrounds) is triuphalism, pure and simple.

wjk:”koreans don’t owe anything to blacks.”

That’s right. They were the real operatives in the civil rights movement.

Nor did they traditionally open businesses in the black inner city communities after the Jews picked up and left making it affordable to do business in the big cities.

Nor do they owe their independence to the UN or their security to the US or their economic development to the US, Germans, French and Japanese.

Nor do they owe their railroads to the Japanese or their written language to the Chinese, Nor Buddhism to India and China, Christianity to American Protestants, Hangul and I Hwa U. to Horace Underwood, hot peppers to the Portuguese, marbled beef (ie. “Hanu”)to the Americans, the kayagum to the Chinese, their economic success to overseas markets…

No, we Koreans don’t own nothin to nobody. We are the direct descendents of a butt fucking bear who descended from heaven to grace the world with…um the peninsula…half the peninsula with their superior…um…contributions to…um…

oh never mind. Just let us brag about how self made we are until China finally eclipses us.

Hey, statistically, Asian Americans excel. That includes all recent Asian immigrant groups including Chinese, Philipinos, Japanese, Asian Indians, and Koreans. They are to be credited for undergoing the struggles that all new immigrant populations have and, like the Jews, Italians, Irish, etc. succeeding in helping subsequent generations to realize the American dream.

Unlike these other immigrant populations, however, Koreans have significantly more trouble assimilating. Like all other immigrant groups, they succeed through hard work and education, but unlike any of them, they have a chip on their shoulder and imagine themselves superior to every other ethnic group.

Thanks for the link, yoko, which supports that your “evidence” is inconclusive and that your conjecture that we can attribute the material success of American Jews to IQ while discounting the effects of cultural and attitudinal factors is not not supported.

Thanks, yoko. The more you say, the more you discredit yourself. Take it from a black Korean American with a chip on his shoulder. Please keep talking.

I could give a shit what you believe, Carr. You know firsthand that my spelling is atrocious and the point is peripheral and irrelevent. But that’s OK. Let’s say I never lived a day in Brooklyn, and move on, you turd.

And you know I’m not a scientist because….

Blowhard indeed. You’ve failed to address any of my points.

Sure, have it your way, Carr. And maybe you’ll eventually get over all the personality issues and say something relevent.

Lol you mundingi.

Yeah, ADD for sure. You definately need more Mizar.

Sidney Sax, paulhewson? Any relation to Adolphe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolphe_Sax

Thank you, yoko. You have joined the ranks of my sockpuppets.

Classic ad homimem – discredit the man, not the argument. Yoko has used every fallacy in the book to conceal the fact that he can’t and won’t defend his argument, and is hiding behind the pretense that it hinges on a scientific study involving a few extra IQ points. It doesn’t and he still refuses to respond to the challange to defend his argument that American Jews owe none of their accomplishments to anything other than a few extra IQ points.

Having painted himself into a corner, he is grasping at Carr’s conjectural silliness. It’s called grasping at straws, and he’s played into it nicely. In the process, he has revealed his lack of understanding of some of the facts of the black blowback against Koreans in Harlem in 1981 and has weakly attempted to weasel out of that one as well. He’s a mess, and he’s all over the place. The lengths to which some people will go to stubbornly defend a fallacious argument rather than simply modify or clarify it is a textbook case in poor argument.

My work here is done.

Lol!

That proves you can’t be wjk/pawi. he’d stay up wondering if she had a penis.

As you may recall, I was in Korea at the time, got back to NY in 1986, but I have provided a link stating that this was the first such incident. However, both you and I have Korean shopowners tell of their relationship with their African American customers, and have read the stories and heard things like Ice Cube’s “Black Korea.” Follow the link below and add your own anecdotes if you feel they would be more illuminating:

http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~yisei/issues/spring_92/ys92_6.html

Brendon, if you knew anything about NY, you’d realize that you could get a nice loft apt in Hoboken or another NJ community and commute over. There’s also Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, and, yes, even Staten Island. If it’s the suburban lifestyle you favor, there’s NJ Transit and even trains to places north on either side of the river, even as far as Port Jervis, where you can get more for your money. There’s even Connecticut. Like most, I moved away from the city and commuted for years. NY/NJ is a great place to work and live.

Brendon,

Let me add that in the Metropolitan area, you have access to all the cultural amenities that are missing out where I currently live. I have to travel 3 or more hours to NJ, NY or the DC area for Korean groceries, and while there are some small Korean grocers in Pittsburgh and Harrisburgh, there’s nothing comparable to an H Mart. Ditto decent restaurants of any kind, such as we are used to in NY. Even NJ has some great places to dine.