Writer/historian James Bradley, best known perhaps for his book “Flags of Our Fathers,” marked the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor bombing with an op-ed in the NYT blaming Teddy Roosevelt’s secret diplomacy — including (although not mentioned by name in the op-ed) the Taft-Katsura agreement — for emboldening the Japanese and putting the world on the express train to the Pacific War:
It was for his efforts to broker the peace deal between Russia and Japan that a year and a half later Roosevelt became the first American to win the Nobel Peace Prize — and one of only three presidents to do so while in office (the other two are Woodrow Wilson and President Obama, who will accept his prize this week). No one in Oslo, or in the United States Congress, knew the truth then.
But the Japanese did. And the American president’s support emboldened them to increase their military might — and their imperial ambitions. In December 1941, the consequence of Theodore Roosevelt’s recklessness would become clear to those few who knew of the secret dealings. No one else — including my dad on Iwo Jima — realized just how well Japan had indeed played “our game.”
Obviously, this has very much to do with Bradley’s new book, “The Imperial Cruise: A Secret History of Empire and War,” which deals with, well:
In 1905 President Teddy Roosevelt dispatched Secretary of War William Howard Taft on the largest U.S. diplomatic mission in history to Hawaii, Japan, the Philippines, China, and Korea. Roosevelt’s glamorous twenty-one year old daughter Alice served as mistress of the cruise, which included senators and congressmen. On this trip, Taft concluded secret agreements in Roosevelt’s name.
In 2005, a century later, James Bradley traveled in the wake of Roosevelt’s mission and discovered what had transpired in Honolulu, Tokyo, Manila, Beijing and Seoul.
In 1905, Roosevelt was bully-confident and made secret agreements that he though would secure America’s westward push into the Pacific. Instead, he lit the long fuse on the Asian firecrackers that would singe America’s hands for a century.
At the History News Network, there’s another interview with Bradley, as well as some criticism of his book.
Personally, I think it’s absurd to argue that Taft-Katsura — whatever you think of the agreement — put the world on the path to the Pacific War. The Japan of 1905 was not the Japan of 1941. Nor was the world of 1905 that of 1941, and compared to the factors that actually did produce the world of 1941 — the Great Depression, the rise of fascism and communism and civil turmoil in China come immediately to mind — Taft-Katsura is so insignificant as to hardly warrant mentioning, except perhaps as a footnote.
Besides, if you’re going to condemn Roosevelt, you’re going to have to condemn his fellow Nobel laureate, Woodrow Wilson, for it was under his watch that Japan came in on the side of the Allies in WW I, using the opportunity to pick up colonies and spheres of influence in the Pacific and Chinese mainland. It was also under his watch that the Lansing–Ishii Agreement was signed, recognizing Japan’s “special interests in China.” (Note: having not read Bradley’s book, I don’t know his take on Wilson’s Far East diplomacy)
If we’re looking for people to blame for Japanese expansionism, though, might I suggest the Russians, Germans and French for the Tripartite Intervention of 1895, in which the afore mentioned nations squeezed the Japanese out of Port Arthur—which the Japanese had taken with their victory in the Sino-Japanese War—only for the Russians to move into it almost immediately afterwards. The lessons the Japanese learned from that experience should be painfully obvious — don’t trust the roundeyes, and your diplomatic clout is only as great as your battalions:
Much to Japan’s astonishment and consternation, Russia moved almost immediately to occupy the entire Liaodong Peninsula and especially to fortify Port Arthur. Germany, France, and even Great Britain took advantage of the weakened China to seize port cities on various pretexts and to expand their spheres of influence.
This humiliation at the hands of the European powers helped lead to the Gashin Shōtan or Persevering through Hardship (for the sake of revenge) ideology in Japan to increase heavy industry and strength of the armed forces, especially the navy, at the expense of individual wants and needs. It was also a direct cause of the Russo-Japanese War (1904–05) and to a lesser extent the Japanese entry in World War I.
PS: Sorry for belatedly posting this — like I said, it’s been busy.
{ 72 comments… read them below or add one }
Let the obscure historical shit-slinging begin! :::GONG:::
In my defense (and the defense of the flame war that is sure to come), James Bradley started it.
thekorean,
Didn’t you post this article in your blog too?
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2009/12/interesting-nyt-article-on-theodore.html
As a matter of fact, maybe Rob should give you a HT?
I read Mr. Bradley’s article in the IHT several days ago and learned a bit from it that made me realize that the US was rather more culpable on this issue of Japan’s colonization of Korea than I had previously supposed — a reminder that I still need to read a lot more history.
My impression is that Roosevelt was more worried about Russian imperialism than Japanese imperialism, so if he had to choose between which country would have more influence over Korea, he preferred Japan — and it probably was a case of accepting one or the other since the US likely couldn’t have done much to counter either country’s power in East Asia at that time, other than by turning one of them against the other.
So, yes, Roosevelt contributed to Japanese power that turned against the US, but nobody ever really knows where history is headed, so Mr. Bradley may be exaggerating US culpability — as Robert suggests.
Incidentally, I’ve also not read the book, just the article.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Yup, I sure did. But eh, I’m not an HT whore like you-know-who…
And for the record, I think of this issue as nothing more than “interesting”. I don’t really have any position on it.
I would if I’d gotten it from his blog. In this case, however, I got it via email from Oranckay a couple of days ago, and it’s been sitting on my “To Do” list ever since.
The Taft-Katsura agreement was a memorandum, not a treaty, and was hardly binding. Also worth noting is the fact that the US at the time was not the super-power it is today. They would have found it very difficult to prevent Japan from annexing Korea and Manchukuo, even if they’d wanted to. It’s interesting that lots of people assume it was the U.S.’ responsibility to save Korea from Japan. I would have thought that was the responsibility of the Korean government.
On a different note, I just read Mao: the untold story, and it has a lot to say about the origins of the Korean War.
In Sum: Kim Il Sung when cap in hand to Stalin and Mao with the idea of invading the south; Stalin had cold feet, but Mao supported the idea for a couple of reasons. 1. It forced the Soviets to help China arm (and possibly give them the Bomb. 2. It was an excuse to kill several hundred thousand (up to a million) former Chinese nationalists, whose loyalty was dubious (Mao never balked at killing his own people when it was personally advantageous to do so), and 3. It was a good way to “eat” up US soldiers.
Kim Il Sung was the instigator for the war, but Mao turned it into a prolonged bloodbath. He even delayed the end of it (when Kim started to panic) to maximize casualties – both US and Chinese. Nice man.
Wilson is the darling of the liberal lefties, he will never ever be blamed for anything.
So Mr. Bradley blames Teddy, from which Mr. Koehler dissents but adds “If we’re looking for people to blame for Japanese expansionism, though, might I suggest the Russians, Germans and French…”
How about blaming the Japanese for Japanese expansionism. Or is that too obvious? Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around for any historical misdeed but surely the starting point must be to fault the entity that actually did it.
On a more positive note it is fantastic to find a Korean blog that actually discusses these kinds of issues.
I think it’s important to understand how exactly TR so “contributed”.
He was basically a cheerleader who, lacking any kind of Big Stick, chose to speak loudly and often.
The US military at the time, especially the Army, was pathetically small and weak, so the US – despite the relative strength of The Great White Fleet that TR himself had built up when he was @ the Navy Department earlier — was incapable of projecting power in any way that required boots on the ground. If one’s view of such matters is shaped by “The Sand Pebbles”, it nevertheless shouldn’t be too different. This is a fact that was underscored at the time by the dispatch of nearly the Army’s entire strength to the Philippines, where it could barely contain the peasant rebeliion that ensued after the US took over from Spain.
TR sought to advance US interests precisely by playing other parties off against one another and/or seeking to mediate their conflicts (not always compeletely even-handedly, e.g., TR’s blatant tilt towards Japan in his role as mediator of the Portsmouth Treaty that ended the Russo-Japanese War) – a policy it shared with its much more potent British ally, with whom it also shared an abhorrence of Russian expansionism at the expense (in the US case) of the Open Door Policy.
Many more or less contemporaneous participants in these events frequently claimed to have foreseen the consequences of the US-British attitude towards Japan, including in particular American Korea hands (both of the blatantly pro-Korea sort and the more dispassionate), but their misgivings in this regard only appear in work published twenty or even thirty years later when the winds of war already were visibly stirring; a look at their writing of the time reveals no such prognostications (although it often will contain denunciations of Japanese policy in Korea). Their arm-chair quarterbacking is easily understood, if still intolerable, because of their jostling for continued influence in the world of affairs. Brady’s brand of 20/20 hindsight is just despicable.
I can’t wait for the real Taft/Katsura shitstorm to begin.
If one was looking for people to blame for Japanese expansionism, they should probably blame, well, the Japanese.
Can anyone spell Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902? Why is this tiny, itsy-bitsy little alliance always overlooked……..
Usually we engage in flamewars about interracial sex. You just came in on a lucky day.
RE: Flame War…
We need a well timed wjk or pawi grenade thrown in this post to get the juices flowing!
Personally, I want to see Shaku here trying to tell us why we should not blame Japan for Japanese expansionism.
@ thekorean, good one.
Rob, put “Dokdo is Korean” in the post to get shak (and Gerry’s) attention.
I forgot the
Personally, I want to see Shaku here trying to tell us why we should not blame Japan for Japanese expansionism.
I was wondering that myself.
#3
If anyone should be getting a HT, it would be me, not The Korean nor the Barbarian. It’s got a video of Bradley explaining his book to Don Imus.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/11/26/hey-i-want-people-to-learn-about-korea-as-much-as-the-next-guy/#comment-353433
#13
Believe it or not, James Bradley talks about interracial sex in his interview with History News Network, which you linked above.
Holy Shit! The source of the FDR’s family’s wealth was opium in China. Grandpa was a drug dealer!
‘How about blaming the Japanese for Japanese expansionism’
took the words right out of my mouth. the us bears responsibility with regards to allowing those who caused this misery to get away with it.
indeed, some even got to visit disneyland. pope hirohito should have been excecuted along with those of unit 731. the us let them off the hook because their victime weren’t the right color.
I think you may have the US confused with the someone else:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/11/13/korean-war-criminals-cleared/
“the us bears responsibility with regards to allowing those who caused this misery to get away with it.”
how do you figure?
yeah, let’s change the subject. the japanese were allowed to get away with their crimes because their victims were asian. pope hirohito should have been tortured and then hanged. instead, he got to visit disneyland. that’s not the fault of the japanese, that’s the fault of the us.
btw, i saw an interview conducted by a white reporter. he was interviewing a doctor of unit 731. the reporter didn’t ask him any tough questions. didn’t even ask the serial killer if he felt remorse. that’s also because the guy’s victims weren’t the right race.
it’s funny how so many of you can’t deal with the truth while you urge koreans to do what you can’t do yourselves.
-”Believe it or not, James Bradley talks about interracial sex in his interview with History News Network, which you linked above.”-
yah, isn’t that something you’re obsessed with you sick freak hypocrite?
see all the posts made by ‘bluejives’ here:
http://www.aznlover.com/vbulletin/news-around-world/14-pictures-real-asian-male-non-asian-female-couples-21.html
yokohamaet,
NK’s obsession, hypocrisy, and complex regarding the topic of inter-racial relationships are sufficiently documented on this site, but your links just make him even more laughable. Have a great weekend.
yokohamaet,
Sick freak hypocrite?
That’s a bit harsh.
I have…um…interesting opinions which you obviously found sufficiently fascinating to take the trouble to go out of your way to find out more about me. I may be a sick fuck but I do not go around stalking people on the internet. Are you a chick, at least? The last person to stalk me was a dude, and well, that sucked.
Introduce yourself.
cmm, it takes one to know one, doesn’t it?
netizenkim also goes by the alias ‘kobukson’
a blogger discusses one of this cretin’s comments here. netizenkim shows up in the comments thread as ‘kobukson.’
netizenkim/kobukson blogs at ‘Alpha Asian’
pawikirogii: Again, Pawi, I think you’re a tad confused. As reprehensible the American protection of Hirohito and the Unit 731 types may or may not have been, they were saved not because their victims weren’t white, but because said individuals were useful. It was the same reason, for instance, that we conducted Operation Paperclip, which is how we got photographs like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wernher_von_Braun.jpg
Now, if you’re looking for an example of a state giving a pass to war criminals because their victims weren’t the right race, I direct you to the link I gave you earlier.
Did I call you a name or something? What are you talking about?
many of the doctors who took part in unit 731 went on to prominent positions within japanese society. they shouldn’t have been alive. if only their victims were the right color.
i don’t buy it, robert. your telling me race had nothing to do with it makes me think you’re the one who’s a tad confused.
‘…in the university’s anatomy department they were subjected to the most horrible medical experiments imaginable. One prisoner was shot in the stomach so that Japanese surgeons could get practice at removing bullets. Amputations on legs and arms were practiced while the victims were still alive. One was injected with sea water in an experiment to find out if sea water could be substituted for saline solution. One badly wounded American, thinking he was going to be treated for his wound, was anaesthetized and woke up to find that one of his lungs had been removed. He died shortly after. Others had part of the liver removed to see if they could still live.’
At the time of Taft-Katsura, the Japanese were chomping at the bit being ready, willing and able to reproduce their victory at Port Arthur anywhere in the world. By deferring to Japan and especially recognizing her right to have a colonial toehold in Asia, Teddy Roosevelt stupidly emboldened and enabled Japan to go forward with further unabated militarism — beginning with the 1931 invasion of Manchuria, then the 1937 invasion of China, then Pearl Harbor in 1941, and the whole Pacific campaign in general. The lasting effects of Taft-Katsura after the war was that it paved the way to the division of Korea agreed to by Stalin and Truman during the Potsdam Conference in July 1945, the Korean War, and the current Mexican standoff we have today
<The Taft-Katsura agreement was a memorandum, not a treaty, and was hardly binding.
Treaties are not necessary in divide-and-conquer strategies, and Taft-Katsura was hardly a “memo .” Taft-Katsura was a gentleman’s agreement and a divide-and-conquer strategy verbalized in secret between two interested parties: a wartime victor in the Russo-Japanese war (Japan) and a weak and ineffectual Teddy Roosevelt administration pandering to Japan’s newly found power in Asia.
Arguing that it wasn’t a signed agreement or that it wasn’t an agreement at all are both irrelevant. The fact is that both parties gave each other permission vis-a-vis Taft-Katsura to maintain and carve out their sectors of influence, with the U.S. encouraging Japan to recognize its control of the Philippines, while in return giving tacit approval to Japan’s ambitions in Korea.
Of course, this led directly to Japan’s annexation of Korea in 1905 and subsequent colonization five years later.
Redo:
hoju_saram @7:
Treaties are not necessary in divide-and-conquer strategies, and Taft-Katsura was hardly a “memo .” Taft-Katsura was a gentleman’s agreement and a divide-and-conquer strategy verbalized in secret between two interested parties: a wartime victor in the Russo-Japanese war (Japan) and a weak and ineffectual Teddy Roosevelt administration pandering to Japan’s newly found power in Asia.
Arguing that it wasn’t a signed agreement or that it wasn’t an agreement at all are both irrelevant. The fact is that both parties gave each other permission vis-a-vis Taft-Katsura to maintain and carve out their sectors of influence, with the U.S. encouraging Japan to recognize its control of the Philippines, while in return giving tacit approval to Japan’s ambitions in Korea.
Of course, this led directly to Japan’s annexation of Korea in 1905 and subsequent colonization five years later.
Since we’re sharing he’s also on gay.com as AllTheWhiteCock4Me.
He’s pretty crafty, I think. His outrage over WM/AF relations is just a feint. He’s really an ardent proponent of WM/AM relations.
To blame the US for Japanese militarism and World War II is ridiculous. Even if Roosevelt wanted to help Korea what was he supposed to do? A 1905 version of the Incheon Landing Operation? The US military of 1905 was equal to if not less capable than the major European powers and the Japanese just got done defeating the Russians, the US military wouldn’t have stood a chance in such a war. Plus the US military already had its hands full with the Moros in the Philippines.
The Taft-Katsura Agreement was simply a statement recognizing the reality at the time, the Japanese were going to colonize Korea no matter if there was an agreement or not.
No it didn’t. Japan’s plans to annex Korea led to Japan annexing Korea.
I agree with GI Korea. The US was in no position to prevent Japan from colonizing Korea; and more importantly, its wrong to presume that they were obligated to do so.
And I’m not even American.
#36
The Taft-Katsura Agreement was simply a statement recognizing the reality at the time, the Japanese were going to colonize Korea no matter if there was an agreement or not.
It was a quid pro quo agreement between two emerging empires of the time, Japan and the US. You can have Korea, meanwhile leave The Philippines alone. It proves the maxim that nations do not have friends, only interests. It also proves Hans Morgenthau’s contention that pure balance of power, not some overriding objective, universal morality, is a singular defining characteristic of international relations. However, America’s involvement in modern Korean affairs (including the Korean War) is almost always couched in terms of America being a “Good Guy”, busy protecting the world from the “Bad Guys” – from tyranny, oppression, Fascism, Communism, Terrorism, etc. Findings such as the Taft-Katsura agreements proves that the official Narrative is nothing but contrived mythology. Why is Taft-Katsura an obscure one sentence footnote (if it is mentioned at all) in the history books? It’s because it goes against the “Good Guy versus Bad Guy” dogma. It also proves that there are suspicious gaps in the history books here in the US.
James Bradley believes that Theodore Roosevelt’s meddlings ignited a series of causal events which put Japan and the US on an inevitable collision course. It was the reason why his grandpappy was forced from his home in Wisconsin to fight Japs on Iwo Jima. I believe his arguments and outrage is highly justified. Every American should be outraged, especially as we take stock of the consequences of imperial overstretch, fighting TWO wars in Afganistan and Iraq. T Roosevelt set a dangerous precedent which still haunts us today. He acted independently of Congress, which is unconstitutional. He willingly put America in ‘entangling relationships’ with foreign powers, against the admonition of the Founding Fathers. The seeds of the Pacific War laid hidden in Taft-Katsura, just as the seeds of the War gainst Terror lay hidden in America’s involvement with mujaheddin during the Cold War and the two Iraqi Wars with America backing Saddam Hussein during the Iraq-Iran Wars of the 80s. The “Good Guy vs Bad Guy” narrative is bullshit. All that rhetoric about freedom and democracy is bullshit. When was the last time Congress declared war? I can’t even remember. Today, war and much of America’s foreign policy does not reflect the will of the people. No one knows why we are in Afghanistan and Iraq or what the objectives are. It’s become a clusterfuck of ideology and special interests. Yet my tax dollars are paying for it. Young men and women are being asked to risk their lives for God-knows-what. When I consider where America is heading, it is fucking depressing as hell.
The timeless human mantra. I wonder how your average person today would feel if they were living through WW2, WW1, the depression, let alone the years prior to 1900 when you were lucky to live past 40. America’s in a tight spot right now, but they’ll come out the other side ok.
Personally, I think the world is in better shape than it has ever been. And i think it would be even better if people were a bit more positive and put a bit more faith in the future and in other people.
pawikirogii:”yeah, let’s change the subject. the japanese were allowed to get away with their crimes because their victims were asian.”
A persecution complex is a dissembling thing to watch. It’s the common thread that runs through all racist diatrobes.
BTW, the “Good Guy versus Bad Guy” idea is a fixture of every county’s psyche, not just the US.
And the world could have done a hell of a lot worse than having the US as hegemon in the late 20th century. Forget Taft-Katsura – it deserves to be a footnote. As far as I’m concerned, having read a fair bit about Stalin and Mao, if it hadn’t been for Uncle Sam, we’d all be fucked. Korea (north and south) would have become a grovelling client of the CCP (with USSR backing) or Japan.
Only far fetched conspiracy theorists think Taft-Katsura was of any significance whatsoever.
Seeds can be sewn just about anywhere.
In 1898 Russia had pressured China into granting it a lease for Port Arthur, on the Liaotung Peninsula, in southern Manchuria. But earlier Russia, in concert with other European powers, it had forced Japan to relinquish just such a right after the latter’s decisive victory over China in the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-95.
In 1896 Russia had concluded an alliance with China against Japan and, in the process, had won rights to extend the Trans-Siberian Railroad across Chinese-held Manchuria to the Russian seaport of Vladivostok, thus gaining control of an important strip of Manchurian territory.
In 1903 Russia reneged on an agreement to withdraw its troops from Manchuria.
Seems these events were the catalyst of the Russo-Japanese War, and this Japan’s victory led to the Taft-Katsura Agreement…
Of course Commodore Perry could have sewn those seeds by “opening” Japan.
Of course Robert Fulton’s steamboat necessitated Perry’s incursion into Japan to secure water and coal for those steamboats. And these black ships wowed the Japanese so much they opened up, modernized, and militarized.
Of course coal was a seed, too.
I blame the dinosaurs.
The mind can play weird tricks with apparant logic, seouldout.
You bloody idiot. A plan in and of itself doesn’t mean shit. The U.S. military — like every army on earth — has tons of operational plans on the books for every contingency imaginable — whether it be a pre-emptive strike against North Korea, or conducting retaliatory nuclear strikes against Russia, etc.
However, just like most nations, the U.S. won’t be executing any of these OPLANS in the near future unless provoked or unless there’s a firm belief that we can win.
Likewise, even Imperial Japan didn’t execute warplans willy nilly unless they thought they could get away with it. On that note, Teddy Roosevelt was an absolute fool to think that the Japanese would live up to the terms of a gentleman’s agreement like Taft-Katsura. Teddy is at fault inasmuch as his extreme naivete and poor worldview precluded him from recognizing Japan’s militarist aims and true ambition of dominating all of Asia.
Are you familiar with any of the theories related to codependency? Its like Japan was the cokehead, and Teddy Roosevelt was the codependent enabler — whether it be simply providing the funds to buy more drugs or assuaging away any guilt by emboldening the addict to continue their habit without compunction. Teddy Roosevelt, for that matter, was the ultimate enabler. Now, if he had had any scruples at all, he would have been willing to wield that big stick to contain Japan, instead of functioning as a racketeer, pandering and conducting shady deals behind the scenes so he could circumvent international law.
Going further, b/c Teddy Roosevelt was willing to indulge in the divide-and-conquer politics that was so popular at the time, in order to ensure America’s sphere of influence in Asia, Teddy effectively passed up the chance to do the right thing, which was to recognize the sovereignty of Korea and assist in her nation building. This little effort on his part, even though it would’ve flouted convention by siding with an underdog, could’ve shown Imperial Japan that the U.S. wasn’t going to stand idly by while it gobbled up other countries, and would’ve effectively forced Imperial Japan to think twice about invading Manchuria in 1931, invading China in 1937, and attacking Pearl Harbor in 1941.
However, because Teddy was looking for expedient solutions to maintain its own colonial toehold in Asia — and b/c Teddy Roosevelt, like most white Americans of the time, was under the spell of the “Yellow Peril” hysteria, specifically, that all Asians are the same and should be contained — he unfortunately bought into racist thinking and numerous logical fallacies, the first of which was that Korea — as well as other sovereign nations — would have no problem accepting Japan as a “Protectorate.”
On the other hand, the Japanese was seeking permission from the West, or at least an indication that a blind eye would be turned to their militarism and colonial ambitions in Asia.
The revised Anglo-Japanese treaty of 1905 and the Taft-Katsura agreement were exactly the kind of assurances that they were looking for and got, which opened the doors to their long held plans to take over Korea and dominate Asia.
Ultimately, as a result of the conclusion of the Taft-Katsura agreement on July 29, 1905, Japan knew they had the U.S. in her hip pocket — along with the British vis-a-vis the revised Anglo-Japanese treaty of 1905.
Is it no surprise that the Japanese waltzed into Korea just a few weeks later?
Regardless, these unequal treaties and secret agreements — all of which were nullified later — like the unequal treaties shoved down the throats of the Chinese during the Opium Wars — were not only illegal because they violated the sovereignty of other nations, but were symptomatic of the era of colonialism and imperialism at the time.
That being said, Taft-Katsura was ultimately exposed as a devious, short sighted and expedient solution to complex regional and national issues, in that it pandered to Machevellian politics, imperialistic traditions and colonial ambitions over self-determination, sovereign rule and self-rule.
The U.S. was not even willing to take a stand in 1905 for Korea — even though they easily could have had Teddy Roosevelt chosen to thrown down the gauntlet in front of Japan instead of kowtowing to them.
Also, arguments that the U.S. Navy of 1905 couldn’t project militarily into the region doesn’t hold water. All you have to do is look at the Shinmiyangyo incident of 1871, when five U.S. gunboats with an expeditionary task force successfully overtook the Korean garrison at Ganghwa-do in retaliation for the S.S. General Sherman. Just one gunboat showing up in the port of Busan would’ve been enough to show Imperial Japan that the rest of the world would not countenance Japanese expansionism in the area.
The bottom line is that Teddy Roosevelt chose expediency over a morally correct choice, which would’ve been to recognize Korea’s sovereignty in 1905. Ultimately, his failure to do so, cost more American and Korean lives — from Pearl Harbor, to Corregidor, to the entire Pacific Campaign, to the Korean War, to the present Mexican standoff we have now.
Acquiring and maintaining sovereignty is the responsibility of the sovereign. It’s not bestowed upon the sovereign by another; if that, then the sovereign is nothing but a vassal. No de jure sovereignty without de facto sovereignty; this was the maxim of the Teddy Roosevelt’s day.
Not to deny the fervor is those shaking Korean fists, but it is solely the fault of the Koreans that the Japanese were able to take over w/ little credible opposition.
If that’s too painful blame the dinosaurs.
Right. Just look at how having the Russian fleet in Port Arthur and warships from five different nations in Chemulpo scared the hell out of the Japanese in 1904.
What exactly were the “quid” and the “quo”?
Korea and the Philippines were not America’s and Japan’s to give.
Nor was any agreement necessary to assure that each wouldn’t interfere with the other. Neither was capable of doing so. The Japanese were nearly financially bankrupt at the end of the Russo-Japanese War, and the fleet they had financed with a big chunk of the debt they had incurred was a wreck (contemporary observers who saw the Japanese fleet in various ports in Korea and Japan have testified that it was so badly battered that the only reasonable inference that could be drawn was that the great naval battles at the beginning of the conflict were very much closer affairs than the grossly disproportionate number of Russian ships lost otherwisie would suggest. On the other hand, the Japanese Army was still in fine fettle. America’s, on the other hand, was pathetically small and weak and its entire strength save the minimum home reserve was in over its head in the Philippines dealing with the Moros; the very small Marine Corps was otherwise engaged, mostly in Central and South America with a detachment looking after US interests in the vastness of China.
The notion that Taft-Katsura was anything more than a footnote, if that, is simple-minded and, as exemplified by the rest of NK’s rant driven by current political passion, not an appreciation,let alone an understanding, of what actually transpired in East Asia between 1875 and 1910.
LOL. Ths is absolutely moronic. Does anyone seriously believe that the Japanese military of 1905 that kicked the crap out of Russia can be equated with the under-trained, medievally-armed bumpkins charged with the defense of Ganghwa-do in 1871, even assuming the US had anything in the way of ground troops to send up against them. Come back when you learn some history and develop some judgment. Otherwise, go eat your kimchi-dubu.
“Right. Just look at how having the Russian fleet in Port Arthur and warships from five different nations in Chemulpo scared the hell out of the Japanese in 1904.”
Not to mention that one of those was a US warship, namely the Vicksberg.
Teddy was basically ignorant about Asian countries. If he had known that Japan would attack America and kill some of his offsprings, he would not have supported Japan’s rise.
Let’s call it as it is; Americans do not understand Asians. Period. Even to this day.
Let me tell you Asians.
The Chinese: Bumbling fools. Last to modernize. Very ancient and obstinate fools. I bet some of them still believe that the earth is flat. Usually peaceful, but suddenly gets angry. Easy killers with no remorse. Buddihsm prohibits killing but it also says the dead people just get reborn. So, no eternal damnation, just slap on the arm. Like to drink, eat and gamble. Soon, it will attack Japan to pay back for Manchuria and Nanjing.
Koreans: Who know what these frogs-in-a-well will do? Probably be a part of the Chinese empire.
The Japanese: Very sneaky people. Very dangerous. They are very subservient when they are in weak position. But, they will become unbearable masters when they are strong. This is their nature. They like to kill off their teachers,masters or benefactors so that they can survive. Surviving is the final moral virtue for the Japanese. Or, killing themselves to show that they are still in control. They like to kill. Enjoy killing people. Teddy was stupid; he thought the Japanese are like one of tribes in South America. The Japanese turned on their benefactor, America. Killing Americans with smile on their faces.
America should not have any strong ties with China or Japan. Soon, these two countries will have a big war.
The US should only maintain ties with Korea. However, it must sever the tie when Koreas belong to the Chinese empire.
These Asian countries, after the war, will form a union, akin to EU. But not before the war! No country is smart enough to jump over the lesson it must learn to advance to the next level. “War is bad”. These countries will only learn the lesson after much bloodshed. Nationalism in all three countries are just too strong to form any kind of union now. But, after killing of 10% of population, the lesson will sink in.
8675309,
You bloody idiot. A plan in and of itself doesn’t mean shit.
Classy.
Here’s my point: Taft-Katsura was cynical and devious – no doubt. But I think its pretty clear that Japan’s ambitions would not have been curtained, whether the memorandum was signed or not. And there were plenty of other triggers that abetted them as well.
Plans do mean shit, especially when they have so much momentum behind them. By 1905 Japan had already well and truly set off down the Imperialist path, along with their rivals, France, Britain, the US, Russia and Germany.
Japan had already taken Taiwan (1895), had already supplanted China in Korea (they had troops and a puppet government in Seoul in 1894), and had seized the Kwantung Leased Territories (Southern Manchuria) after they won Russo-Japanese War.
Korea was of huge strategic importance to Japan, and given the mood of the time (both in Japan and between the powers), it was inevitable (Katsura’s words, not mine) that Japan was going to colonize Korea, regardless of what the US agreed to.
Another point: you’ve banged on quite a bit about Taft-Katsura; how much blame to place at the feet of Japan herself? And how much blame do you put on the inept, corrupt, self-serving Korean leaders for failing to protect their own people?
A lot of people have already debunked a lot of what 8675309 said, but the big question is why should the US have intervened to help Korea?
Saying that the US didn’t do anything to help Korea I could agree with, but to blame the US for the Japanese colonization is just another absurd attempt at historical revisionism so prevalent today. If people want to assign blame they should look at the Koreans themselves.
Shouldn’t the first responsibility of a government be to ensure national security? The Korean elites were more interested in their own security than national defense. If the Korean government had opened up their economy and simultaneously built up and modernized their army after the embarrassing defeat to the Americans on Ganghwa Island over 20 years prior they may have been able to prevent what happened to them. Remember in the wake of the Donghak Rebellion only 8,000 Japanese soldiers were able to occupy Seoul and capture the government. 8,000 for crying out loud. Why should the US be expected to defend a country that isn’t even willing to protect itself from an invasion force of 8,000 soldiers? If the Koreans fought a protracted war against the Japanese to keep them out of Korea maybe the US would have done more to help the Koreans. As it turned out the Koreans did very little to expel the Japanese during both the Sino and Russo-Japanese Wars thus why would the US government feel an obligation to free Korea when it appeared they didn’t want to be free themselves?
The bottom line is that the corrupt and incompetent Korean rulers created the conditions that led to the Japanese colonization of Korea. In their quest to keep their own domestic status quo they ignored the changes in the power structure in northeast Asia, mainly that China could not be depended on to defend the peninsula from invasion. China could not even defend themselves from the western powers at the time, much less Korea. However, the Korean rulers kept their heads in the sand and did little to develop international relations and build their own domestic military to defend the nation. By gambling that the Chinese military would protect them was a bet that they lost. It was an even worse bet if they thought the Americans were obligated to come save them after that.
while it’s true japan is responsible for it’s invasion of korea, the expat seems eager to place the blame on koreans thereby absolving the japanese of any wrongdoing.
just look at the tripe above for an example of that.
stop apologizing for the nips, OK?
He didn’t “apologize” for the “Nips”; he just pointed out the more than equal culpability of the “gooks” for their own humiliation. Denying it won’t make it go away, any more than efforts to shift the responsibility to Uncle Same (ala the numbered one and NK) or any other evasion designed to exonerate Korea will – they all only add to the bad faith that underlies your pathological self-hatred.
is james bradley korea?
Another evasion! Way to go!
And no Bradley isn’t Korea or Korean, but obviously just as incapable of getting beyond his own emotions to think critically upon the basis of the relevant facts.
japan is responsile for it’s behavior. can’t be any clearer than that. are you saying it’s korea’s fault?
I’m saying your Manichean view of the world, and the corresponding effort to apportion praise and blame for events in the world, is hopelessly primitive and wrong.
really? you mean the nazis aren’t to blame for their behavior? listen, let go of your anger and we can discuss much.
the nips are resonsible for their behavior. you’re trying to mitigate that by implying korea shares the blame. wake uo, honkey. wake up.
Saying that the US didn’t do anything to help Korea I could agree with, but to blame the US for the Japanese colonization is just another absurd attempt at historical revisionism so prevalent today. If people want to assign blame they should look at the Koreans themselves.
Well, I am not blaming the US for what the Japanese did.
But in light of what happened in history, Americans need to to re-evaluate their paternalistic attitudes towards Korea, that they “saved” Korea from the Japanese or the Reds or what-have-you.
BTW, now that you’ve managed to stoop to the level of Reductio ad Hitlerum, I think that in accordance with Godwin’s Law it’s time for you to STFU, since you’re obviously incapable of anything resembling useful discussion
Who claims the first? Who can reasonably deny the second? Who gives a fuck about the third?
Well Pawi you can always go over to my blog and read where I clearly said people should blame Tojo first but that doesn’t nothing to absolve the Korean elites who set the conditions for the colonization of Korea. This should serve as a reminder to every Korean on why a strong ROK Army is a must.
“is james bradley korea[n]?”
Pawi,
That Bradley is American does not automatically makes him an objective or neutral observer in regard to the Korean peninsula.
To be more specific: In the United States, there is a sizable number of Leftist intellectuals who tend to essentially blame America for every human ill. In particular, these “scholars” (and I put the term in quotes) tend to be disproportionately represented in “area studies” departments, esp. departments or sub-departments that specialize in the Far East, the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America.
Now I can’t say Bradley is one of these reflexive America-bashers, because I have never read him. But I would not be surprised in the least if he were one of them.
GI Korea.
Korea was a very divided country at 1900-1910. The main reason was the deep-seated class system. The lower class, SsangNoms, would not take the inhumane treatment any longer. They were being educated by western influences and getting smarter. However, the Yangbans would not let SsangNoms to rise as the equal status as they enjoy.
Some intellectuals saw the only way to change is to start all over again. The Japanese empire promised modern education, equal treatment and modern comfort(electricity, trains, medicine). And, I believe they were right. Korea under the Fuji Mountain Monkeys’ rule have advanced from the dark ages to Renaissance. Modern culture came through the Japanese.
This is why my mother, who was educated under the Japanese school system, still praises the Japanese as the superior people. Sort of like Indians under the British Empire might have. As I was growing up in Korean in sixties, there were several people who were speaking Japanese in the street, to show their intellectual status. Sort of like some Koreans speaking English.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not a Commie and not a pro-Japan. However, not to violate my own sense of justice, I must admit the Monkeys did much good in Korea. Setting up modern school system, bringing electricity and trains and modern hospitals and public health system.
Let’s call it as it is.
When I read so many of these posts I am certain they come from an uneducated third world country of spoon fed idiots.
First of all, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because FDR forced them to as part of his plan working with the European Bankers to crush global industrialists. Now, I am no supporter of the global industrialists who had been enslaved by a corrupt banking system and sought freedom from financial machinations that were destroying them, but I am opposed to the massive ignorance and lies that surround this matter.
FDR used the U.S. Navy to blockade petroleum going into Japan forcing them to use the very last drop of petroleum left to free up their supply by attacking Pearl Harbor. If they hadn’t, their industry would have ground to a halt.
Of course the banks thrived off the industry and the industry promoted the World Wars in Europe and the Pacific to increase sales.
Add to this that Roosevelt’s betrayal of the Americans he was supposed to defend for some cheap European loans is an action that stands in the Shadow of the Pusher Man, as his grandfather became wealthy with the Opium Trade and founded today’s Skull Organisation that with the Neo Zionist Movement is responsible for the Bombing of the Murrah Building, The Assassination of JFK, The Destruction of the Twin Towers and more. As always, this is the work of greedy psychopaths to get richer.
What is the difference between a low life thug in an alleyway mugging people and these famous names we memorize? Those we are duped into heaping praise on as some kind of hero are actually much more evil than the thug in the street. Indeed, they have taken a world where technology could have brought comfort and art into a new civilized planet and instead have orchestrated death, suffering, deceptions and evil machinations for their own wealth. Their time is coming. For the rest of you, wake up before you get your wake up call! -nesatince
To nesatince –
I read your post, and I must admit, it confused the crap out of me. I think I will take a little time to blwo to shit most of your arguments, but the easiest one that is 100% factually incorrect is when you wrote:
“FDR used the U.S. Navy to blockade petroleum going into Japan forcing them to use the very last drop of petroleum left to free up their supply by attacking Pearl Harbor. If they hadn’t, their industry would have ground to a halt.”
FDR used a blockade??? For God’s sake, Japan relied on the US for 80% of its oil!! No blockade was needed OR used. The US simply stopped SENDING oil. Seeing this coming and accepting the inevitability of war, Japan looked toward the Dutch East Indies for their rich sources of oil and rubber. Embargo??? Totally FALSE!! I will reply to your other senseless points momentarily.
To netisance –
You: When I read so many of these posts I am certain they come from an uneducated third world country of spoon fed idiots.
You: First of all, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because FDR forced them to as part of his plan working with the European Bankers to crush global industrialists. Now, I am no supporter of the global industrialists who had been enslaved by a corrupt banking system and sought freedom from financial machinations that were destroying them, but I am opposed to the massive ignorance and lies that surround this matter.
Me: FDR ‘s plan with European Bankers to crush global industrialists?? What European bankers? Switzerland? England?? Because other than those two, Europe was occupied entirely by Nazi Forces by 1941. What global industrialists?? That is sheer lunacy!
You: FDR used the U.S. Navy to blockade petroleum going into Japan forcing them to use the very last drop of petroleum left to free up their supply by attacking Pearl Harbor. If they hadn’t, their industry would have ground to a halt.
Me: see #71 above
You: Of course the banks thrived off the industry and the industry promoted the World Wars in Europe and the Pacific to increase sales.
Me: First, you said World WARS….FDR and Japan were involved only in World War II. The war was not promoted. It was fought desperately to defeat the Japanese and Germany. Industry promoted itself as a tool to better achieve victory, and US industry produced most of the best war machinery in history in order to pursue that end. And once World War II was over, and most of the wartime industry was re-converted to civilian production, the economy in the US (and its industry – without a War)continued to grow.
You: Add to this that Roosevelt’s betrayal of the Americans he was supposed to defend for some cheap European loans is an action that stands in the Shadow of the Pusher Man, as his grandfather became wealthy with the Opium Trade and founded today’s Skull Organisation that with the Neo Zionist Movement is responsible for the Bombing of the Murrah Building, The Assassination of JFK, The Destruction of the Twin Towers and more. As always, this is the work of greedy psychopaths to get richer.
Me: Are you on CRACK??? Sure, Roosevelt’s family wealth was a result of the opium trade. SO??? Did that make FDR a drug pusher? Uh…NO. The Neo-Zionist movement responsible for the bombing of the Murrah Building? Helloooo!! A disgruntled former military doofus named Timothy McVeigh did that. JFK, 9/11? Oh my GOD…people like you need to have background checks before being allowed to own laptops!!!
You: What is the difference between a low life thug in an alleyway mugging people and these famous names we memorize? Those we are duped into heaping praise on as some kind of hero are actually much more evil than the thug in the street. Indeed, they have taken a world where technology could have brought comfort and art into a new civilized planet and instead have orchestrated death, suffering, deceptions and evil machinations for their own wealth. Their time is coming. For the rest of you, wake up before you get your wake up call! –nesatince
Me: DO you stand on a street corner during the daytime with a poster strapped to you which reads: “REPENT!! THE END IS NEAR!!”??
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