NHN has reportedly concluded that Anti-English Spectrum doesn’t violate Naver.com’s service regulations.
Oh, and the Korea Herald has another piece on Anti-English Spectrum and hate speech. I’m sure Anti-English Spectrum appreciates the free publicity.
Anyway, Brian, Matt, Kushibo, Chris and others have a lot more to say about this.
UPDATE: I guess I sum up my major beef with the anti-AES effort — well, at least the Vandom letter to NHN (apologies if I’ve misunderstood it) — in this comment.
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‘While Naver should protect its users’ rights to speak freely in a robust and open environment where controversial ideas are expressed and even offensive language is used, it is clear that racial hatred and discrimination must not be tolerated. Accordingly, Article Ga-4 of Naver cafe’s terms of service agreement makes clear that a cafe created with the intention of defaming a particular group is prohibited and Article Ga-6 calls for “immediate closure” in such an instance’ andrea something
these kind of arguments are weak. here’s how pawi would repsond:
have you advocated for the shutting down of stormfront? i get my feelings hurt there just like you get your feelings hurt by spectrum. why haven’t you called for the removal of all racists post from stormfront? is it because you think you’re special? when i see you are consistant and your own house is in order, i will consider your request.
as for atek being denied their rquest by naver, i say:
halleluyah!
Hey… I’ve got a question… any word on when Stormfront.org’s web hosting company is going to shut them down?
beat you to it, wankon!
Just finished a post mentioning Brian, Matt, Kushibo, and of course you — http://chrisinsouthkorea.blogs.....m-and.html
I’m amazed that anyone would host Stormfront. Is it hosted in like a Caribbean country?
Wow. Not one, but two people actually dense enough to believe that Stormfront uses a hosting company with terms of service in any way similarly restrictive as those of Naver.
Wouldn’t common sense have steered you away from that ridiculous comparison far before you were able to hit the submit button?
By the way, I fully support AES and their right to post whatever the hell they want, and as long as Naver applies their terms of service consistently to all, let the shit fly.
I agree. With nothing removed from the site, we can use their own posts against them when a complaint is filed with the NHRCK to label them a hate group.
I don’t expect pawi to understand the difference, but wangkon?
naver has rules, AES breaks them, naver says they won’t enforce their own rules on AES.
before you want to make a valid comparison with despicable stormfront’s webpage, shouldn’t you provide information about their host’s rules or perhaps the laws that govern the host?
it’s interesting how the expat wants to avoid the tough questions. do they advocate the removal of racist speech from sites like stormfront or do they not? why don’t types like brian or chris answer such a tough question? it’s because, if they do, they’ll be exposed for the hypoctirtes that they are; to advocate such a position here is akin to pissing on the constitution, but these very same people think it’s ok to take a shit on the korean one.
korea is a democracy. that means people have a right to say what they will. don’t like it? too bad. that’s the price of a free society. but that’s not what these folks want. they want to control speech. they want defend accused child molesters. they want to censor. they want to ban. they want to silence. they’ll take away a korean’s right to say whatever he or she wishes to say all because their feelings are hurt.
but their feelings being hurt is not enough. we need to see more. where’s their prood that they are DIRECTLY harmed by aes? PROVE IT!
they can’t so they don’t.
i’m going to ask it again:
do expats like brian, chris, or ms andrea advocate for the removal of hateful speech from sites like stormfront?
please answer the question.
‘naver has rules, AES breaks them, naver says they won’t enforce their own rules on AES. before you want to make a valid comparison with despicable stormfront’s webpage, shouldn’t you provide information about their host’s rules or perhaps the laws that govern the host?’
how convenient. i’m going to call naver right now and tell them to change their tos using stormfronts tos as a guidline. that should clear things up. i didn’t know it would be so simple. why didn’t you just say so in the first place? nice dodge.
can’t answer the hard questions.
This issue has been addressed a gazillion time already. Naver’s (and many other companies’) TOS agreements basically amount to saying that they’ll decide whether or not a particular rule has been broken or not. And some companies (like Yahoo, not sure if Naver does this) even say in their TOS agreement that they’ll be able to change anything in the TOS at any time without even notifying the user.
Pawi — you’re actually missing the bigger problem. Whether Naver, as a private entity, wants to shut down Anti-English Spectrum for TOS violations is up to them. What I find a more disturbing is that Andrea Vandom, whose letter started this whole story, argues that “promoting racial intolerance” is itself illegal, citing Article 4 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD):
http://2009hunma358.blogspot.c.....ar-mr.html
Or, to put this another way, your apparent UN-declared right not to have your racial feelings hurt trumps the right to free speech. Very UN스럽다, granted, but an argument that could take you down a very dangerous road. Moreover, the line from a promotional poster she cites as a violation, that Koreans look coldly at Southeast Asian guest workers but are too nice to white people, I happened to partly agree with, and my guess is the hero of the “Drunk Ajeossi Bus Story,” Prof. Hussain, would probably agree, too, judging by some of his previous statements. I suppose that means Hussain and I (well, at least me, anyway) are now guilty of promoting racial hatred and discrimination and should have our freedom of speech appropriately limited.
thank you for showing me the bigger picture. it’s scarier than i thought.
have a good day, robert.
your apparent UN-declared right not to have your racial feelings hurt trumps the right to free speech
What a quaint misunderstanding of international law. Rights under the treaty you mention certainly aren’t “UN-declared.” Like similar international human rights treaties, the ICERD only has the power that States who decide to become a party to them consent for it to have. Korea’s ICERD obligations are self-imposed obligations.
If you feel that Korea’s commitments are taking it “down a very dangerous road” then say so, but what does Vandom or anyone else have to do with it?
You could tell poor misguided Korea to give up its own flawed approach to international human rights treaties and follow the path of the USA and put in a reservation to the ICERD treaty like so:
“ . . . the Constitution and laws of the United States contain extensive protections of individual freedom of speech, expression and association. Accordingly, the United States does not accept any obligation under this Convention, in particular under articles 4 and 7, to restrict those rights”
And presto, your “major beef” has evaporated. See how that works? It’s all about consent, the principle of international law. Here it is again for you. Watch how Japan does it:
“In applying the provisions of paragraphs (a) and (b) of article 4 of the [ICERD Convention] Japan fulfills the obligations under those provisions to the extent that fulfillment of the obligations is compatible with the guarantee of the rights to freedom of assembly, association and expression and other rights under the Constitution of Japan. . .”
Now I’d offer to show you Korea’s reservations, but there aren’t any. (In fact Korea decided to up the anty most parties to the ICERD and even consented to give the CERD committee jurisdiction over indivdual complaints. Get after them about that it’s even more dangerous.)
And it’s not that Korea doesn’t know how to make reservations to international treaties, take Article 22 of the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which says:
“Everyone shall have the right to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and join trade unions for the protection of his interests.”
And Korea’s reservation says:
“the Republic of Korea [declares] that the provisions of [...], article 22 [...] of the Covenant shall be so applied as to be in conformity with the provisions of the local laws including the Constitution of the Republic of Korea.”
In conclusion, feel free to argue against Korea’s position on the issue, but don’t make it out like this is some sort of UN or foreigner led rebellion on Korea’s sovereignty. It’s absurd.
While we demanding people to prove shit, I want you to prove this.
Perhaps the only place open racial discrimination may never be illegal is personal ads.
Hey, Mr. Wagner, I’m not the one who cited Article 4 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD) to argue why someone saying that Koreans look down on Southeast Asians but treat white folk too well should be a prohibited act and Naver’s assistance of it punishable by law. THAT’s absurd. If the Korean state, citing self-imposed obligations to the UN, were to go along with it, that would also be absurd. And tragic, IMHO.
Anyway, in the event that this goes anywhere, we’ll see how the court system weighs in on the matter.
So this is going to the courts?
Never a quiet day in the ROK… sigh…
Mr. Wagner would know much more about that than I, but given how, as Vandom has argued — and Wagner seems to explain — AES and Naver may be violating domestic law by running foul of Article 4 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), I can’t see any reason charges shouldn’t be raised. I haven’t heard of any immediate plans to do so, though. Mr. Wagner?
Yeah, racism sucks.
Except, of course, when it’s your racism.
@12 & 19
“Koreans look coldly at Southeast Asian guest workers but are too nice to white people, I happened to partly agree with, and my guess is the hero of the ‘Drunk Ajeossi Bus Story, Prof. Hussain, would probably agree, too, judging by some of his previous statements. I suppose that means Hussain and I (well, at least me, anyway) are now guilty of promoting racial hatred and discrimination and should have our freedom of speech appropriately limited.”
You say you and Prof. Hussain agree with the fact that Southeast Asian workers are treated coldly and blue-eyed people are treated much better – I agree, so that makes three of us. So now explain to me how this promotes racial hatred and discrimination?
Now if you advocate that Koreans should continue to treat Southeast Asians coldly and that in fact that’s how all people not of the Korean race should be treated, that’s promoting racial hatred and discrimination. Again, if, in your opinion, this is so absurd and tragic then I suggest you take it up with the ROK. “Hey’ing” me isn’t going to do much.
Please recall that I wasn’t the one who forced Korea’s hand to write:
“The [ICERD] Convention was ratified and promulgated by the Government with the consent of the National Assembly. As such, it has the same authority of domestic law and does not necessitate additional legislation.” (CERD/C/KOR/14)
@ 19
Courts? Unless one is intentionally trying to misunderstand Vandom’s NHN letter I can’t see why the question of going to court would come even come up? But I can see how it fits in with the image of the rabid foreign liberal trying to interfere with Korean sovereignty…
The letter at it’s most virulent merely “strongly suggest[s]” the removal of content saying “foreigners are targeting Korean children in order to sexually molest them” and saying “foreigners seeking to infect Koreans with AIDS” among several other suggestions. This is no demand letter, is it? Was there legal action threatened somewhere? Did you see anything in the letter saying (as your post is inappropriately titled) Vandom wanted to “Shut Down Anti-English Spectrum”?
Is it beyond the pale now for foreigners to “strongly suggest” a corporation hold its users to terms they have consented to and follow the law? Is it disrespectful to ask Koreans to consider taking down material saying foreigners are plotting to spread AIDS?
You say you “can’t see any reason charges shouldn’t be raised,” but clearly dialog not court charges are the most appropriate means to effect change. And in Korea it helps to do that in Korean.
Did you notice that the entire letter was painstakingly translated into Korean and that Koreans were invited to comment?
http://2009hunma358.blogspot.c.....hn_16.html
(Wagner09)
Lol, whether it’s Koreans asserting that they are too nice to white people or Americans asserting they are too generous to minorities, racism has an interesting language of its own.
I joined AES and read their writings out of my curiosity. And I got the impression they only target illegal instructors. They even have a section that encourage the members to recommend “good” English teachers.
It seems the AES was created in reaction to ES’s offensive comments like this one. I found out they have Korean translations of many offensive comments they captured from English Spectrum.
Thanks Peter.
I’m going to have to check out AES and see what all the fuss is about.
Peter Kim,
That story seems to touch on just about every stereotype there is which makes it a little tough to believe – only thing missing is Wal-mart or burgers.
Not saying that it isn’t true but the convenience of it brings out the skeptic in me.
Here
is another one. It was also translated into Korean at the AES website. Was there a forum, “Ask the Playboy” at the English Spectrum?
Looks legit and sounds like something that would be there. Seems more like a juvenile attempt at potty humor though….
But I think we have to remember the true victims in all of this – the poor hagwon owners. Hard workin’ honest folk who are are only thinking about the children’s future. They try to do right and follow the rules but these white demons somehow find a way through the cracks with clear motives – to rape and pillage.
It does not matter if you build a wall to keep them out if it is too short or somebody is willingly letting them in the side door. Put a steak in front of a hungry untrained dog, it’s gonna eat.
‘And I got the impression they only target illegal instructors. ‘
it’s like i said, atek is more interested in the rights of criminals.
btw, my understanding is this ms andrea is now in korea ‘without papers’.
@28 Propaganda works on dull minds!
btw, my understanding is this ms andrea is now in korea ‘without papers’.
She’s not, as anyone who read the letter – including Kang Shin-who, the article’s author – knows, but it was nice of the KT to try to make everyone think so. Not that I think, what with him stating the area she lived in and putting up a picture of her in a previous article, he’s trying to sic AES on her or anything like that.
By the way, Peter Kim, that first story you linked to was the basis for a series of cartoons. They’re on a cafe blog and can be found by doing a search at Naver.com for 한국을 좋아하는 원어민 강사 진실을 보기 싫은자 크릭하지마셈 (Don’t use quotation marks). I remember them, about two years ago, being at AES but they’re not anymore.
AES may appear to be interested in going after illegal foreigners, but the emphasis there is on foreigners. When they first formed, they complained about foreign teachers ‘debasing’ Korean women (which some of them were, of course) but they responded by doing the same thing. Ohmynews interviewed some of the women who appeared in the photos that set AES off and they said, “일부 인터넷언론과 ‘안티 잉글리시스펙트럼’ 카페 등에서 우리를 창녀, 양공주, 포주로 몰아갔다” (“At Anti-English Spectrum cafe and other sites we have been called prostitutes, westerners’ whores, and brothel keepers.”) and said in the Chosun Ilbo,“어떻게 내 이메일 주소를 알았는지, 섬뜩한 제목의 메일을 대량으로 보내와 요즘은 컴퓨터를 켜지도 않는다,” (”I don’t know how they got my email address, but I get many emails with frightening titles, so I don’t even turn on my computer these days.”) which seemed to suggest that ‘debasing Korean women’ was their job.
In early posts at AES they linked to the Naver cafe ‘백인남자’, (cafe.naver.com/kissme100456), where Korean women posted beefcake photos of white guys, and by October 2005 they had driven the women from the cafe, inundating it with all kinds of angry posts and photos long after they had left. Do a Naver search for 백인남성과 이태원걸 빽빠들이 뇌구조도 to see what I mean (the ‘white male brain map’ had previously appeared at AES). A post at AES (7926) says “백빠(이태원걸) 와 “피해자” 는 반드시 구분되어야 합니다,” that true victims of English teachers have to be separated from ‘Itaewon girls’ when taking complaints.
How they really feel was probably made clear when they started their campaign to connect English teachers with AIDS. The post that talks about an ‘AIDS horror story’ that foreigners are indiscriminately spreading AIDS and ends with a fake quote from a government agency saying, “외국인과 성접촉한 한국사람음 거의 대부분 에이즈에 걸릴 것” (“Koreans who have had sexual contact with a foreigner will almost all contract AIDs”). Could they make it any more obvious?
When a woman working at an HIV prevention center in Seoul had things she said taken out of context on AES’s site (in the post mentioned directly above), she complained but they said “this is just a measure to prevent HIV/AIDS.” Funny that people so concerned about AIDS said nothing on their site when a Korean man was caught doing exactly what they accused foreigners of – having unprotected sex while knowing he was HIV positive.
AES tries to make it appear as if they are only interested in ‘illegal’ teachers, but their interests go beyond that, and repeatedly saying negative things about ‘illegal’ foreign teachers in the press ends up focusing on foreign teachers, though this isn’t entirely AES’s fault (not that they mind, of course).
As the Weekly Chosun put it when they introduced articles from foreign English teachers point of view, “Drug addicts, sex offenders, habitual gamblers, forged diplomas, swine flu patients…. Type “native speaker teacher” into an internet portal site news search and keywords like these come up as a “set”. This shows how the Korean media views native speaker teachers.”
They also made it sound like, by showing things from these teachers’ points of view, it was something odd and new.
http://weekly.chosun.com/site/.....01103.html
Peter Kim has suggested before that foreign English teachers should actively present themselves doing ‘good things’ to the media, and this isn’t a bad idea; Robert has suggested before that teachers write letters in Korean to newspapers. One thing that’s clear is that it’s needed to do this in Korean, and if ATEK isn’t going to translate it’s press releases then some other group should. AES gets away with presenting a bad image of foreign teachers because the media are not prodded into showing the other side.
Oh, and the vigilante stuff is just creepy. An October 14 post says that they’re staking out a female foreign teacher they think is doing drugs but no drugs have turned up, only a used condom (“마약은 않나오고 사용한 콘돔만 나왔답니다”), suggesting they go through people’s garbage. Especially fun is them suggesting recently that it’s better to go to them than the police:
“외국인에게 폭행 등 피해를 당했을 때 경찰에 직접 신고하면 신분이 노출되고 조사를 받아야 한다는 부담감 때문에 회원들이 카페를 통해 상담을 받고, 피해사실을 신고하기도 한다” (“If you are assaulted or harmed by a foreigner and go to the police their identities are exposed and there is the burden of investigation, so if you go through our cafe members we can advise you and alert police”)
Wonderful.
Btw, I looked closely at their campaign to equate foreign English teachers with AIDS here:
http://populargusts.blogspot.c.....chers.html
doesnt matter what aes says about english teachers. this is a free speech issue. nothing more.
let’s move on and not waste our time on this small but crafty group of people.
Is stalking a form of free speech? Do words and facts have ANY meaning?
Apparently you are unable to distinguish a form a goverment from a legal right.
correction: …form of government…
“I got the impression [AES] only target[s] illegal instructors.”
Whew, that’s a relief. For a little while there I was worried that this was one of those BAD vigilante groups that stalks and rummages through the trash of persons based on considerations of race and/or national origin in an ongoing attempt to get such persons arrested, fired, and deported. But we can now relax, safe in the knowledge that only ILLEGAL foreigners are stalked.
Used condoms in garbage (by the way: eww)? AES fighting!
Maybe Western media will pick up on the recent stories of AES’s heroic acts. That would surely benefit Korean tourism. Win-win, baby!
“I got the impression [AES] only target[s] illegal instructors.”
Whew, that’s a relief. For a little while there I was worried that this was one of those BAD vigilante groups that stalks and rummages through the trash of persons based on considerations of race and/or national origin in an ongoing attempt to get such persons arrested, fired, and deported. But we can now relax, safe in the knowledge that only ILLEGAL foreigners are stalked.
Used condoms in garbage (by the way: eww)? AES fighting!
Maybe Western media will pick up on the recent stories of AES’s heroic acts. That would surely benefit Korean tourism. Win-win, baby!
If foreigners minded their proper places within Korean society then none of this would be happening.
I’m not sure it would affect it that much. Most of Korea’s tourists are from Asia, and more specifically Northeast Asia. Korea doesn’t depend that much on tourism for its economy either.
And countries like South Africa, Malaysia, Singapore i.e. places with much worse pathologies and crime or much more restrictive, “intolerant,” and even draconian laws have much higher tourism rates.
What’s interesting about your comment here about the “Western media” is that it reveals at least one of the reasons for this stance towards Korea: trying to get a largely sovereign, independent foreign nation to conform to contemporary Western norms. I’m not making a value judgment of this motivation but just pointing out that it exists on some level. And to deny this would be intellectually dishonest.
C’mon. That is one of the weakest trolling attempts I have seen from you yet? Long week of work? I expect better.
‘Maybe Western media will pick up on the recent stories of AES’s heroic acts. That would surely benefit Korean tourism. Win-win, baby!’
yes, but the problem is your average american thinks the same things koreans do about lone english teachers going to live in asia. they love you long time.
lol
How many foreign males served the mandatory term in the Korean military? How many foreigners are citizens who pledge allegiance to the ROK? How many foreigners make Korea their permanent home and endeavor to assimilate into Korean society?
*crickets* *crickets*
So what makes foreigners think that they are entitled to anything?
they think they’re special, that’s why.
How many serve in the US military, alongside black marketer kimchi GIs?
Based on the crime statistics, how many ROK citizens follow the nation’s laws as well as the foreigners?
How many Korean immigrants endeavor to assimilate into American society?
How many of them try to scam the system the way some wealthy Korean American immigrants collect on US entitlement programs designed to help the needy?
Do you think you’re special, pawi? Have you ever been to Korea, or met a foreign expatriate in Korea? Or do you simply broad brush others based on some deep-seated sense of outrage that non Koreans would dare have opinions?
Have you ever sought therapy?
How many serve in the US military, alongside black marketer kimchi GIs?
Plenty of Korean immigrant’s children serve in the US military in places like Afghanistan or Iraq. As a matter of fact, this blog had a visit from the widow of Kyu Chay, a KA and a US army sergeant who died in Iraq, not too long ago.
How many Korean immigrants endeavor to assimilate into American society?
Plenty of Korean immigrants endeavor to assimilate into American society. In fact, many of the 2nd generation do it too well.
How many of them try to scam the system the way some wealthy Korean American immigrants collect on US entitlement programs designed to help the needy?
And what entitlement programs might that be precisely? Furthermore, not every KA is wealthy.
If Asian-Americans weren’t the so-called “Model Minority” and conducted themselves, within American society, the same way as foreigners do in Korea, there would most definitely be a backlash.
In fact, there is already a backlash against Asian-Americans in areas where it is felt that we are too “overrepresented”, such as higher education.
Americans you mean – like me and you. But you weren’t referencing the 2nd generation.
Many foreign Korean residents endeavor to assimilate into Korean society and do so quite well. The 2nd generation do it too well.
Welfare and medicare as you are already well aware if you have any significant contact with KA society. Furthermore, not every foreigner in Korea is wealthy.
“What’s interesting about your comment here about the “Western media” is that it reveals at least one of the reasons for this stance towards Korea: trying to get a largely sovereign, independent foreign nation to conform to contemporary Western norms.”
Stalking strangers based on race and/or national origin and rummaging through their garbage is a traditional Korean value? Confucian? And is prohibition of same is (merely) a contemporary Western value? Really?
New tourism slogan: Korea! Our Men Are Watching Out For You!
They are free to conduct themselves as they like, and do so, without hindrance, cockblocking or backlash.
I read 엠투(m2t24), I guess he is the administrator of AES, introduced “good” English teachers and their websites, such as Ask the Expat and Joseph P Aucoin. And the members replied with stories of good English teachers.
But it seems undeniable that AES targets only “foreigners”. 싸울아비(antonio0516), I guess he is one of the representative members, said that AES was initiated because of the ES’s offensive forum (Ask the Playboy) and news report on “Sexy Costume Party” at Mary Jane in Hongdae.
He claimed, in his posting, that AES is an organization focused more on foreign English teachers to ensure safer English educational environment. He said that dealing with problems of Korean teachers is beyond their ability. And he wished someone else could start a movement against wrongdoings of Korean teachers too. One commentator complained that foreigners are not as much punished as Koreans and in most cases just end up being expelled from Korea. Is it true?
Here is a recent posting of 엠투on Nov. 19, 2009 under the title “외국인 강사 여러분 힘내셔요”(Cheer up Foreign Instructors). I guess this is the message he wishes to be delivered to English teachers. He expressed his sympathy for innocent English teachers and asked their cooperation in ruling out unqualified teachers.
“부적격 원어민 강사로 인해 도매급으로 비판받는 외국인 강사분들 참 마음이 안타깝네요…. 머나먼 타국땅에서 한국에와 고생하면서 생업에 충실한 여러분들…. 돕고 싶습니다. 부적격 강사들로 인해 피해보는 것을 막아 보겠습니다. 많은 생각을 했습니다. 최근 일련의 사태를 보고 이분들이 부적격 강사들 때문에 넘 힘들게 한국에서 생활하는구나…. 하고 맘이 아팠습니다. 우리 한번 대화해보는 것이 어떨까요… 같은 외국인들이다보니 한국인보다 부적격 강사들에 대한 소문이나 사실을 많이 아실 것입니다. 우리에게 연락 부탁드립니다. 꼭 처리해서 여러분들의 이미지 개선에 많은 노력을 기울이겠습니다. 연락 기다리겠습니다.”
Mizar, I am not here to compare apples and oranges. Koreans in the US are there to stay. Expats in Korea aren’t. That makes a world of difference.
The bottom-line is this: If you are not a citizen of Korea, if you are not planning to reside in Korea indefinitely, if you do not pledge allegiance to the Korean flag, if you do not defend Korea, if you do not assimilate into Korean society….basically, everything that America typically expects of her own newcomers…if you are simply a temporary guest worker, then you are not entitled to anything and you are well advised to mind your proper place.
WB,
Never said that.
Nice try though.
Nonsense. Foreigners in America, whether permanent residents or visa holders are entitled to the same protection under the law without discrimination regardless of the fact that they are not expected to assimilate, defend, pledge allegience, etc. Your position is irrational and factually incorrect.
I am sorry Mizar, but there are plenty, PLENTY of Americans who simply do not share your views.
China seems to have much more strict laws on drug issue. There is a British man who was accused of drug smuggling and is endangered to be executed under Chinese law. Here is the story.
I am sorry, NK, but the majority of Americans share those basic values, which are guaranteed under the constitution and statutory law.
“I guess this is the message he wishes to be delivered to English teachers. He expressed his sympathy for innocent English teachers and asked their cooperation in ruling out unqualified teachers.”
Ay, there’s the rub: unqualified. Korea (the government, not AES) says any HIV-free native English speaker with a bachelor’s degree, a job offer and a clean criminal history is qualified for an E-2 visa. What some Korean men mean by unqualified, meanwhile, is drug use (fair enough, though the stalking and rummaging through garbage is not cool) and, especially, dating “our” women. As a poster noted upthread, the bottom line is Korean men don’t want “their” women degraded by foreign men. Korean men consider it their exclusive right to degrade Korean women.
[Cut to stock footage of Korea's spinning barber poles, red-light districts, love motels, and news stories such as last spring's male high school teachers sexually harassing university teaching interns.]
Until those “plenty” of Americans actually have access to the levers of power and change the laws and deny those protections, you’re full of shit, as usual.
You really know jack shit about Korea. You should be embarrassed at how little you know in relation to the volume of posts you throw up here. Christ, an illegal backpacking English teacher on his 3rd week in Korea has a better grasp on the place than you do.
Korea is begging for foreign investment, setting up new programs to bring more foreigners in to teach, changing their current laws to reduce the penalties on Korean companies that hire illegal aliens, setting up foreigner towns and special investment zones to lure foreign companies and their employees, and applying to host every international convention/sporting event/conference/trade show under the sun in an effort to woo more foreigners, their money, and their expertise.
And yet you’re dumbfuck stupid enough to think that the best way to do all of those things is to put up a big sign at the airport that says “FOREIGNERS – MIND YOUR PROPER PLACE! AND REMEMBER YOU AREN’T ENTITLED TO SHIT!”
You’ve created a fictional Korea in your own head, openly and aggressively hostile to all temporary foreigner workers, white dudes with an eye on the local ladies, and “do-gooder” western couples looking to adopt one of the many little bundles of shame littering the landscape. And not only does that fiction not exist, but it’s so far distant from the reality that the dipshit advocating it may as well be talking about Mars.
Well, looks like somebody here finally figured out gyopos do not equal motherland koreans. Sperwer, are you listening? We ain’t all part of the BORG, ok?
while i don’t agree to the possible reason behind the suggestion,(seems like they want the english teachers to dob in each other) the primary objective of this latest anti-anti-esl campaign needs to be clarified.
is it 1. to improve the image of the english teachers overall in the eyes of the majority of the koreans or is it
2. to show up the anti-esl cafe for what it is – a vigilante hate group
because if 1. is greater than 2. then that suggestion above should be taken seriously by vandom et al. what they did with regards to Naver, was akin to “telling the blogowner to ban someone they don’t agree with who keeps on harrassing them” – this does not go down very well in this country or society. it’s just how it is – a little backward, a little less logical for now – and somehow taking the most logical steps as seen through a logical person’s eyes can be viewed as a 비겁한 way through the others.
even if one considers one’s harrasser a lower form of life than the dirt stuck in between your toenail, and it makes one’s stomach turn at the thought of engaging in any discussion with them, for vandom, the quickest and the most effective way would be to engage directly and appease them, by convincing them, to work with you than to work against you, which is why they should take up on the suggestion and talk it out.
I read 엠투’s response to a posting (No. 9581: 서양남자들만 보면 미친듯이 달려든다는데…) written on July 1, 2009, under the category of “네티즌의 생각있는 글”
In response to Pusansf’s criticism that some easy Korean women are also responsible for the problem, 엠투 said that it is not the issue in AES. 엠투 wrote that Korean women dating with foreigners is a matter of their own preference. He claimed that AES’s concern is about English education not about Korean women dating with foreigners. Here is his comment:
“외국인이 취향인 것은 각자의 취향입니다. 이런 것을 교육을 논하는 모임에서 논한다는 것은 맞지 않다고 봅니다.”
What’s your idea of “the best way to do all of those things”? And what are some countries and places that best approximate your idea of this?
peter kim from what you have posted if this 엠투 character is the head(administrator?) of this anti-esl, it sounds like it would not be too hard to directly convince him to remove the offensive slander material from the blog.
It seems gyopos English teachers (ie. the “other white meat”) are beyond their ability, too.
Please, tell us, what is our “proper” place? You sound like a white plantation owner talking about a bunch of your cotton-pickers.
Deregulate, deregulate, and deregulate. Hong Kong and Singapore.
having lived in Hong Kong and several times visitor of Singapore, those are the two countries that i as a korean would not want korea to become like- while it is really convenient for the expats to live there, especially the western ones who can find their places quite easily on a level above the locals – i would still choose japan over those two. in my eyes, they are still western man’s vision of chinese asia and just owe much of their character from being governed by the brits
.
I take it you’ve not read any of the antiquarian literature on Ye Olde Korea?
AES has repeatedly said that they only target “illegal” teachers (I guess only illegal teachers have sex with Korean women). Have they ever revealed what method they use to determine if a teacher is illegal? Can anyone even suggest how such a thing could be determined by anyone other than the employer or the Department Immigration?
By the way, with one glaring exception, every teacher I know who ever worked a few months illegally did so against their will because their employer was dragging their feet on filing the proper paperwork. I know several people who had to threaten to quit in order to work legally.
You are full of it.
Asian Americans of many ethnicities are deeply involved in worse conduct than you attribute to foreigners in Korea, including:
Prostitution
Poaching
Drug trafficking
Tax evasion
Immigration fraud
Gang activity
Mass murder (shout out to your brother-in-arms Cho Seung-hui)
Yet, there is zero backlash. You are an idiot.
Here is 엠투’s public notice under the title, “게시글 이용에 있어 주의를 당부합니다” written on Feb. 12, 2007. He warned that he would not allow, in the AES website, any criticism or distortion on Korean women dating with foreigners.
“불체자 나이지리아 파키스탄 문제는 앞으로도 다루지 않을 것이며 또한 외국인과 사귀는 여성분들에 대한 폄하 왜곡을 허용하지 않겠습니다. 그런 분들 요구에는 참여하지도 않을 것임을 말씀드립니다. 대중의 공감을 얻지 못하는 한쪽으로 치우쳐진 그런 생각들과는 같이 하지 않습니다.”
The problem is with Asian Americans representing around 4.3 percent of the U.S. population, you’ll be hardpressed to find any real examples of any statistical significance to substantiate your ridiculous claim of AA’s being “deeply involved” in the conduct you falsely attribute to an entire class of people. And btw, that Cho guy was a Korean citizen, not a U.S. citizen. Btw, how deep do ya’ have to be to be “deeply involved”?
From AES’s manager, quoted above, directed at ‘good English teachers’:
“꼭 처리해서 여러분들의 이미지 개선에 많은 노력을 기울이겠습니다. 연락 기다리겠습니다.” (“I will devote myself to improving your image. I await your call.”) Good God. That’s like Ji Man-won offering to do PR for the DLP.
As AES’s manager said in the KT awhile back,
“There are many foreign instructors who are leading disorderly lives involving sex and drugs, although the foreign group is denying it [...] Without accepting the facts, they will never succeed in removing their bad image.”
So he seems to be saying, “Admit your guilt, help me turn in your fellows, and I will help make things go easier for you.” Sounds like he’s taking this ‘We’re like the Kempeitai’ thing a little too far.
Another thing they’ve complained about is that foreigners aren’t living at the addresses registered with the immigration office. Does immigration give that information out to anyone who asks, or just to groups concerned with ‘upright English education?’
Peter Kim: So they admit that it was a bunch of photos of foreign men and Korean women together that got them angry enough to form their group. Yes, the guys who posted those photos were idiots, but the people who formed AES took part in harassing the women in the photos. It’s nice that AES is trying to paint a kinder, gentler version of themselves, and are now saying that women can date who they want – that’s great. It stands in contrast to the misogynist things they’ve said in the past, and I imagine they wanted to try to change their image from ‘misogynist xenophobes’ to just plain old ‘xenophobes.’
He claimed, in his posting, that AES is an organization focused more on foreign English teachers to ensure safer English educational environment. He said that dealing with problems of Korean teachers is beyond their ability.
Beyond their ability? It’s perfectly within their ability. It’s just that they don’t care about crimes committed by Korean teachers.
There are also some Korean criticisms on AES. They seem worrying about overgeneralizing and stereotyping English teachers, which will result in victimizing innocent English teachers.
Zanemom, at the AES website, wrote that this issue should be approached in government level, such as restricting the qualification of English teachers. Zanemom is against AES’s activity of stalking suspicious English teachers and accusing them. Here is the comment:
“여기 매니저님과 스탭분들 외국인 강사 자격기준을 강화하는 문제로 교육부측과 접촉은 해보셨나요? 일부 외국인 강사들을 뒤를 캐는 것보다 총체적인 문제에 접근을 해보셨나요? 그게 우선일 것 같은데요?”
Singapore?
I see. So I guess they should be executing 22 year-old English teachers like Cullen Thomas and keeping out the fruit pickers then.
Exactly. Other than skin colour, AES knows nothing about a teacher (how do they know he’s even a teacher and not a student or tourist?). Do they just follow people at random and just hope to catch them in the act?
“Against their will”? No, it was a choice. Yes, yes, I realize by not continuing to work without a visa, and even pestering the boss to get the paperwork done, may just hasten your termination, but all the same it is a choice to work illegally.
The last person I knew to be in such a position was a former co-worker at a national university which kept putting off his visa run and putting it off. Going on 3(?) months of such nonsense, he ended up killing himself in his campus apartment. Other issues were there, but the stress he was under as an illegal and the fights he got into with the boss over the illegality was a big factor.
I for one wouldn’t object to that.
They gets tips from members, from co-workers, parents of students attending hagwons, and employees at restaurants and bars frequented by foreign teachers and proceed from there. More info on AES’s methods is here.
엠투 repeatedly claimed that AES is not involved in the issue of Korean women dating with foreign men. He said that it is a matter of personal preference. He said that AES is devoted to legal issues caused by foreign instructors, which badly affect children and English education. Here is his comment on May 4, 2009.
“우리 모임은 외국인 남자와 한국 여성의 교제 및 그런 이성간의 취향문제에는 관여하지 않습니다. 그건 개인의 성적 취향이자 이성관의 문제입니다. 우리는 외국인 강사들이 일으키는 법적인 문제 그래서 우리의 자녀들과 영어교육에 끼치는 악영향에만 전력투구합니다.”
Great! So next time a foreign teacher wants to get his visa so he can work legally and his employer refuses, that foreigner should go to AES for support? Strange, though, that their website isn’t in English . . . from where I’m sitting, it really seems like they don’t want to communicate with foreign English teachers at all. I mean, call me crazy, but it really seems to me that this AES group sees foreign teachers as some kind of enemy!* Must be imagination.
*Although, to be fair, I don’t think their slogan is “Protect Korea with the blood of our ancestors!” anymore, so that’s progress, I guess.
Apparently you’re dumb enough to believe that emulating the business-friendly environment of Singapore would also require overhauling Korea’s drug laws and immigration policies.
Get back to me when you’ve removed your head from your ass.
Apparently you’re dumb enough to believe that a nation about an order of magnitude greater in population, and many times greater in size, than a tiny, authoritarian city-state can and should (never mind even considering what the nations’ citizens might want) be emulating its “business-friendly environment.”
Here is Sumz’s comment, at the AES website, under the title “까페는 인종차별주의 집단이 아닙니다.”(No. 9951: This café is not a group of racists) on November 21, 2009. He or she said that he saw some foreign instructors teach children raising the third finger and took pictures of them. He also claimed that they cursed with vulgar words such as “cunt” in front of children assuming that Koreans do not understand what they were saying.
“저는 외국인 강사들이 어린아이들에게 뻑큐를 시키고 사진을 찍고 그것을 근무시간에 재밌다며 깔깔거리며 보여주고, 아이들과 제가 못 알아들을 것으로 생각하고 온갖 욕설을 퍼붓고 (cunt라고 말하는 것까지 제 귀로 들었습니다.) 매일 거짓말과 꾀병을 일삼는 행동을 목격하였습니다.”
I guess their complaints are about unqualified teachers not about English teachers in general. I’d advise ATEK to keep away from the allegation that ATEK is attempting to defend sexual molesters and drug addicts. It is necessary for ATEK to separate innocent teachers from unqualified teachers like the above case. ATEK needs to clarify its support on teachers’ professionalism and its position against unqualified teachers and those involved in crimes. ATEK will fail to win Korean parents’ hearts unless ATEK assures them that its primary concern lies in the safety and interests of children. Most Korean parents are ready to spend tons of money for their children. Please win their hearts and let them be willing to open their wallets for you.
Yes, I’m dumb enough, and so is Lee Myung Bak and his entire government, who have made it a publicly stated goal to outdo Singapore in becoming the most business-friendly country in the world.
“Korea will emerge as the most open and business-friendly country in the world,” President Lee Myung-bak claimed Wednesday. Lee promised “a changed Korea, where foreigners can live comfortably. If the Korea-U.S. free trade agreement is ratified and the Korea-EU FTA is concluded this year, and if similar FTAs are signed with China and Japan, Korea will emerge as a gateway to investment in East Asia and serve as a key link in the world’s four largest economic zones.”
South Korean President Lee Myung Bak pledged to deregulate and lower corporate taxes to make the Asian nation more “business friendly” for U.S. investors.
“Our government is making a lot of deregulations, lowering corporate taxes to make a nation where foreign companies can invest and work easily,” Lee told a group of corporate and financial chiefs at a luncheon in New York today. “This is not just lip service — we’re trying to put into effect these new changes by the end of the year.”
Korea should benchmark Singapore for its foreign business-friendly environment if it wants to become the business hub of Northeast Asia, said Dr. Bernd Reckmann, the head of Merck KGaA’s Korean chemical and pharmaceutical operations.
“I believe Korea has the potential, as the country is richly mixed with hard-working can-do spirited people, cutting-edge technologies and dynamic culture,” Reckmann said. “But I think it would be very helpful for Korea to benchmark, for instance, Singapore and its foreign business environment and see the gap and make improvements.”
Lord, can you step up your game a little? This is like boxing with a quadrapalegic, blind infant.
that’s why 2MB is an soundbite idiot.
who also wants korea to invent a nintendo, outgreen every other country while de-greenbelting all the green belt zones and building a water tank expressway every other president to say “grand bargain” in their speech while smiling into the camera next to him and his wife force feeding everyone greasy japche and giving cookbook to promote korean food.
It’s also why Korea’s rank in the World Bank rankings of business-friendly countries has risen in the last 3 years from 30th to 23rd to 19th.
There are plenty of pipe dreams and hub dreams that Korean government officials throw out that are laughable, but improving the business environment for foreign companies/investors and making the country’s laws and regulations easier to navigate and less restrictive is an admirable and achievable goal.
I don’t always agree with LMB, but he’s right on this one.
What we’re really talking about is Korean/non-Korean relations, and about business policies only insofar as they involve and affect non-Koreans. After all, it’s not as if you’d even be thinking about this were South Korea an autarky completely shut off to non-Koreans or something. This discussion about business policies is just a proxy for discussing Korean/non-Korean relations and advocating a particular position regarding them.
Now if Korea becomes more “business-friendly” and as a result more foreigners immigrate, it becomes “multicultural,” “diverse,” etc., should it also then consider heeding Lee Kuan Yew’s wisdom and get rid of democracy altogether and go authoritarian?
“In multiracial societies, you don’t vote in accordance with your economic interests and social interests, you vote in accordance with race and religion…So I found a formula that changes that…”
-Lee Kuan Yew
I was going to direct one of my better middle school students to this thread since she is very interested in this topic but, when I went to take a look myself, I realized that it wasn’t such a good idea. This was solely because of iheartblueballs’ avatar. Real classy.
Robert?
Koehler doesn’t control the gravatar images — Gravatar.org does. If you believe that blueballs’ gravatar image is vulgar, which would be a violation of the Terms of Service, you can “report abuse” to Gravatar.org.
If it were me, though, I’d just let it go. Your middle school students aren’t missing much here.
Or maybe blueballs could just switch images for a few days.
“We ain’t all part of the BORG, ok?”
An awful goddamn lot of them seem to be Ferengi.
Why would a lib/con snipefest be considered an education tool?
It seems the AES was created in reaction to ES’s offensive comments like this one.
-What is so offensive about that posting? A guy came to Korea without a degree and taught illegally FOR THE THIRD LARGEST CORPORATION IN THE COUNTRY, flirted with his co-workers, taught privates, got married and went back home and bought a house. If Lucky-Goldstar didn’t have such a need for short-term, contract teachers to teach a month or two at their training centres in Kyunggi-do, there would be no market for them. If Immigration and Korean law enforcement actually believed in the rule of law, this sort of thing wouldn’t happen. For Korea to blame the foreigners that profit from its incoherent muddle of laws, principles and jurisdictions is asking them to behave better than Koreans themselves. In Korea, foreigners learn from Koreans about how to cheat the system and not the other way around. He evaded taxes? So did every Korean I ever met. He flirted with co-workers? I suppose forcing your female co-workers to drink boilermakers till they pass out is better. He married a Korean woman? Ah, now I see what is making you angry.
# 94:
That’s not the only one. What I found out at the AES website is hundreds of image captures of offensive words by English teachers at ESL related websites. Most of them are about sex and drugs and cursing on Korea.
It seems they have been monitoring the forums of ESL websites for a while. They have been translating them into Korean language. So please watch out your words at ELS websites. It is necessary for maintaining your professionalism as teachers and for securing your own job market.
ES website running a forum like “Ask the Playboy” gave seriously wrong messages to Korean parents. They are your clients. Please do not lose your clients because of some stupid forums and comments posted at ESL websites. Most Koreans admire English-speakers. Please be professional and proud of your job as teachers.
Oops: ELS websites –> ESL websites.
“ES website running a forum like “Ask the Playboy” gave seriously wrong messages to Korean parents. They are your clients.”
-Korea gets the teachers it deserves.
I don’t really like AES, but let’s take this one up for the sake of argument. Can’t you say that AES exposing what the NSETs are doing wrong exactly in order to compel Immigration and Korean law enforcement into action? That Koreans cheat the law does not make NSETs’ cheating any less problematic. How else AES could hope to clean up such cheating, unless they expose it? (Since, as Robert has often said, the expat community in Korea shows little inclination for “self-reflection” as to what it is doing wrong?)
I am not trying to deflect criticism of western misbehaviour by pointing out that Koreans do it too. Nor am I saying that there are two groups of immoral folk: Korean and Western. I am saying that people who teach illegally in Korea are aided by Koreans who maintain their corrupt lifestyles. They pay them cash for privates, voice recording, editing, writing, acting like clowns on TV and company classes. Focusing on the honkies who do bad things while letting the Korean parents, hagwons and chaebols that pay them off the hook is racist. AES are not heroes trying to get the Korean authorities to follow the law: they seem to use illegal vigilante tactics to harass foreigners. Of course, if I had a police force as useless as the KNP on my side, I might not care about laws either. AES spread misinformation to create largely false perceptions of western English teachers in Korea. That is not heroic, it is a manifestation of xenophobia, misogyny and some serious psycho-sexual disorders.
And yeah, Koreans lead by example. Koreans take western guys and expect them to behave like angels in a country where nobody cares about laws, the police do nothing, there is prostitution on every corner, women are objectified to a high degree, alcoholism begins in high school, violence is the solution to everything, superficiality is the name of the game and money is the only arbiter.There is no such thing as an expat community in Korea, they will never reflect on themselves. They do what they have to in order to survive. And so do Koreans.
Why would your middle school student be offended by a fist on top of a plum? Does she have a soft spot for fruit under duress?
First, your middle school student has seen far more graphic images, I garunteeya. Second, this blog is not written for kids. Nevermind Blueballs’ gravatar; there is plenty of vulgar language and sexually explicit content in many threads, which is why I would not provide the web address of the Marmot’s Hole to any K-12 student. Unfortunately, there aren’t likely to be any mainstream media resources with balanced coverage of the conflict.
are you sure? maybe soft porn but such a horrible, in-your-face aggressive close up of the family jewels? i’d never seen it prior to this one.
i would be more concerned that she does not form her impression of what foreigners who live and have lived in korea based on this blog alone and would not direct her to it unless she has already formed her impression by interaction with a diverse spectrum of non-koreans in real life to know that this is just one facet of the whole.
It’s true that the fact that Korean violations of the law in relation to the english language teaching phenomenon don’t make NSET’s violations any less problematic.
But that’s a classic red herring, for it (a) doesn’t by a long shot justify the particular means they have chosen to publicize NSET’s violations (which easily could be accomplished within the bounds of fairness, decency and the law), and (b) doesn’t constructively contribute to resolving the entire problematic of the widespread violation of the law by both Koreans and foreigners in the realm of English language instruction.
Your final parenthetical remark, BTW, is another red herring, since Koehler isn’t exactly the Delphic Oracle with regards to things expat, and the regular chorus of verses contra english teachers by other expats on his blog itself falsifies the claim made.
It’s more than a little ironic that, having lectured people in another thread about argumentative etiquette and effective rhetoric (which often are quite contradictory, as your text at hand illustrates), you actually turn around and indulge in such sophistry here. I guess spending the day yesterday running the meter trying to think up arguments for what you described as your client’s untenable position affected your judgment?
It’s really very simple, no matter where you sit politically on the issue.
– Even Naver admits examples where the AES violates its TOS agreement. And don’t go getting all ACLU here (which is bizarre, Robert, because you usually tout the “when in Rome…” maxim to living in Korea, and limiting speech in MANY contexts is part of Korean law), since almost every Internet service we use, whether in Korea or back home, have similar limitations on hate speech. Try Facebook or MySpace, or any major newspaper’s discussion board. This isn’t the State. This is Naver. And they could zap, say, any Nazi site they want. But you know what, if people want to be stupid, I’d say let ‘em. But what if a site actively promoted the tailing and documenting of “suspicious Jews” in Korea, along with the expected disparaging? That is exactly what AES is doing. They’re STALKING people, based on racist assumptions. What more does one need here to violate a TOS? We’re not even getting to the law yet.
– AES activities violate a major principle of Korean law, which explicitly guarantees a right to privacy. See stalking and rummaging through foreigners’ garbage cases. They provide proof positive on their site that they do so, regardless of the fact they haven’t been formally charged by anyone yet. So, they haven’t run afoul of the authorities, but have proved they VIOLATED THE TOS, and encourage others to do so.
– AES postings actively violate the actual Korean law, as described by Ben Wagner above. No one twisted Korea’s arm in signing into the level of the treaty it did, and many other countries haven’t. What’s more, this ISN’T the US or CANADA. It’s funny that some of the people who love to intepret legitimate gripes about say, being harassed or attacked in public places, as somehow a factor of not being sufficiently acculturated to Korean life are suddenly applying American legal principles to the Korean system. In Korea, there are all kinds of ways of limiting free speech, especially as it applies to violating your RIGHT TO PRIVACY. Duh. Hence, photo law (초상권침해 or “damages against the right to keep one’s facial image private”) is different here than in the US, and photographers have to be careful in a different way. In this way, people suddenly shouting “free speech!” as some absolute have completely missed the boat. And it isn’t even an absolute in the US, say, either. “Hate speech” exists in a special category in relation to a “hate crime” (which even liberal *I* have problems with) and you can’t shout “Fire” in a crowded movie theater, as the time-worn example goes. And one can be sued for slander/libel as well, although the truth-test is a defense. There are obscenity laws that have to conform to “community standards” — so you will go to jail in Cincinnati for selling a Hustler, or the pokey even in NYC for selling scatological pornography. There are exceptions to “free speech” all over even American law, some of which are pretty legal specious, I’d say.
But by Korean legal, ethical, and online standards, AES is a major violator of anything that would come close to being called “free speech” in a society that limits said speech, in a major way, on the principle of the “right to privacy.”
Then you get to the legal protection of minorities that Korea signed into via international treaty law, and this kind of behavior becomes legally naughty, too.
Funny how people who live by the “when in Rome” maxim become card-carrying members of the ACLU in a country where that is itself completely meaningless as soon as they spot what is apparently some “liberal”-looking excess. Well, by Korean legal standards — one very, very old, and one very new — AES is a violator. Add in Naver’s TOS agreement and you have a pretty strong reason for Vandom’s letter.
Agree or disagree with it, those are the pertinent facts. Not how you feel you have the American right to some fantasy of “free speech” (which doesn’t really exist even in America), or whatever you think of ATEK.
One must give kudos to all the people taking a stand as foreigners recently — they’re not a bunch of whiny ignoramuses applying their own cultural standards to Korea, which certain people try to misrepresent them as. They’re people who know these KOREAN laws and finally chose to take a stand based upon them, and based on the exactly the kind of activities they were designed to stop, and not even some weird, accidentally-appropriate, technicality-based application of a law designed to deal with something else. (The American Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example, actually is based in the enforcement of the Constiution’s interstate Commere Clause, not the principle of “equal protection of the law” found in the 14th Amendment.)
The present efforts are a case-in-point of effecting change in a society that is not one’s own, but has old and established laws that combine with new ones to allow for exactly these kind of changes to take place. So, kudos for Korea for setting up a legal framework that can allow aggrieved social members to take action in their own defense. Those who signed this into Korean domestic law via being signatory to an international treaty actually did a really smart thing, and surely knew what they were doing.
In one fell swoop, you have the laws on the books. Now, as Korean society changes and struggles through the difficulties change produces, we have test cases coming down the line, with clear legal principles to guide Korean society along its self-stated goal of becoming a “multicultural” society.
That’s what Korea claims to want to be, and it has set up the legal framework to do so. So, kudos for them, as well as for actively trying to steer Korean society in a direction different than where other self-described multicultural societies have gone. Korean constitutional thinkers and other governement bodies know the enormity of such a task (a 180-degree turn on the “one people, one culture, one blood” ideology), and putting clear laws against discrimination into domestic law in one stroke of the pen saves a LOT of bullshit, such as what the US had to go through in order to get such laws put on the books.
For all the snickering and backbiting, I think all this mess going down now is going down exactly as it was meant and expected to by Korean legal planners who wanted to save the country a whole lot of BS and uncertainty.
It? So expats in Korea are a borg. Glad I’m back in America and no longer responsible for the behavior of other adults.
so the english teachers here are really the founding fathers and constitutional warriors for the foundation of a multicultural korean nation rather than those who get pissed off with the “cockblocking” ajossi stalkers who won’t let them post about their internet tips on how to deal with the many korean women who throw themselves at them.
i’m sorry, oh, well in that case. i had them confused.
Actually, current legislators had nothing to do with the importation of the substantive provisions of legal treaties into Korean domestic law. It’s a feature of the Korean Constitution itself, and one of which its drafters had little appreciation of the consequences – which I’ve seen demonstrated over and over again by the contortions that Korean lawyers and jurists go through trying to circumvent the application of such imported int’l standards to Korea when the occasion arises, viz. when some unsuspecting foreigner behaves in reliance on what the law actually says, rather than the often completely contradictory way in which it is interpreted and applied in Korea. This, btw, is a problem of long standing in Korea and vis-a-vis the US has infected KORUS relations from the beginning of their formal treaty relations, when Koreans mistakenly understood the language in the Chemulpo Treaty regarding the US exercising its “good offices” in the event of any dispute between Korea and a third country to obligate the US actively to defend Korea’s interests rather (as was well-understood as a matter of then (and still) current international law) than simply to act as a mediator provided both other parties were amenable to mediation and the designation of the US as mediator. The failure of Koreans at the time to understand what they were agreeing to, and the continued (rather wilful) failure of some Korean scholars and pundits to understand exactly what the Chemulpo Treaty actually provided in this regard has had unfortunate consequences both at the time and for the relationship “kibun” of the allies.
As for the rest of the unfounded optimism st forth in the quoted passage, the writer and any othetr interested parties are encouraged to seek out and read the comments of the current Minister of Justice on related issues in lieu of their morning coffee.
what i think is hilarious, in this case is that the evidence of the offensive material, as captured and evidenced by the opposite camp remains on their website, and is no longer on the original website. and if the case is about “offensive, hate-inducing material” on the website, should you remove it is what you have copied and pasted from the other side?
i’m with sperwer @168 which is why i think andrea vandom should don a hanbok and go and see this head of cockblocking ajossis union in her local starbucks.
If you keep agreeing with me, I may have to invite you over for Thanksgiving. But I’m constrained to point out that your suggested solution is not; the victim’s seking out the perp for a little hear to heart would be a collossal waste of her time (the ajossis probably would be happy for the soju and samgyeupsal they undoubtedly would make her pay for) and would do nothing either to rectify her situation or to promote, let alone effect, any change in the systematic defects of Korean legal system that underlay the whole mess.
If you keep agreeing with me, I may have to invite you over for Thanksgiving.
But I’m constrained to point out that your suggested solution is not; the victim’s seeking out the perps for a little heart to heart would be a colossal waste of her time (the ajossis probably would be happy for the soju and samgyeupsal they undoubtedly would make her pay for) and would do nothing either to rectify her situation or to promote, let alone effect, any change in the systematic defects of Korean legal system that underlay the whole mess.
finally just for laughs naver anti-cafe
it’s an anti-naver naver cafe. there are quite a few of them. i suggest that the english teachers join this cafe now.
i think andrea vandom is pretty enough (from the photo) – he won’t make her pay for the meal. she can convince him – i reckon he will run a campaign of all the good english teachers promoting their good images with the same zeal if you can convince him that what he is doing is a good thing. from what peter kim’s posted it seems like this is possible.
as for the thanksgiving dinner, i am very flattered but i am out of the country then.
if i am still around i will come see your 할아버지 face next year if you invite me then.
Returning to this thread, I see some awesome contributions. I was already floored when Robert actually responded directly with honesty and rigor to some of the points raised herein while others had simply resorted to the old bandwith wasting bald assertions, personal attacks and fallacious tricks. If people want to waste bandwith with namecalling, I say, bring it on! I’ll simply continue to discuss things with rigor and dispassion and maybe someone will catch on.
Then, suddenly, this great discussion that ensued when the Metropolitician graced us with his magical way of expressing some deeply thought out analyses. And it just got better. People dropped their silly bickering and pointed to the highest ideals of humanity, namely fairness, sympathy, logic and dispassion.
Nice work, guys!
(Pardon me, my comment about Robert’s contribution relates to the “Racism” thread, in which people were making unsupported arguments about Korean honorifics, the typical bald assertions supposedly supported by falacious attacks, etc. If you can argue against my positions with honesty and rigor, as he did, I am pleased to cede the point. And while the banmal canard was never successfully argued, Robert provided solid reasoning to support his analysis of certain other flaws in the article.)
I hope you’re being sarcastic, because it’s highly doubtful that the Korean officials involved in this decision “knew what they were doing” in the sense we’re talking about here. Most likely it was the result of the bureaucratic decision making process (i.e. near complete absence of responsibility) and that particularly Korean mix of naivete, unsophistication (re political matters), gullibility, and misunderstanding and ignorance (both willful and inadvertent).
American style ideological “multiculturalism” as far as the Koreans understand it (if they even do so at all; doesn’t seem like it) is just the latest intellectual and political fad out of the West, and this is really the only reason Koreans awkwardly talk about it being a “goal” and pay lip service to the word. It’s an empty, bankrupt concept that’s basically riding the coattails of previous Western exports that were actually good and important things, like capitalism, science, technology, etc. It’s living off the reputations of these things. It’s “influence” is entirely a function of American power and prestige. If America fell apart and balkanized or something, the Koreans would immediately forget about it. And as it’s likely that American power/prestige will decline over the next few decades, both in an absolute and relative sense, it’s also possible that Korea will look to other quite different models of “multiculturalism,” such as China’s, develop its own kind, or just jettison it altogether.
Nowhere is it clear that Korea actually wants to adopt American style ideological “multiculturalism.” As I said it’s not even clear that Korean policy makers, “experts,” etc., let alone the average Korean, fully comprehend it. It’s absurd to believe that they “set up the legal framework” in order to pursue that end.
Well you seem to be suggesting that there is some kind of revolution being effected by “legal planners.” I doubt this is the case, but if it were, it would justify all kinds of reaction on the part of the Korean people and their leaders.
You’re doing the same thing by selectively invoking things and cheerleading concepts that are “completely meaningless” in Korea.
Gee, a long comment by Mike. Whoduthunkit?
Let’s see, where to begin…
Yes, this is true. And for the most part, I’ve opposed such limits on speech, citing Article 21 of the ROK Constitution. Now, I’m not saying current laws limiting free speech are illegal — see paragraph 4 of said article — but I can’t imagine YOU supporting a legal move to say, crack down on your photographs citing “Neither speech nor the press may violate the honor or rights of other persons nor undermine public morals or social ethics.” Or backing the use of the National Security Law to crack down on Marxist websites.
Yes, Mike, I know. And as I said to Pawi, Naver has the right to shut down the site if it likes, citing its TOS. And I’ve said elsewhere, using the site as a base from which to launch illegal activities, such as stalking foreigners (assuming such activity IS illegal, which I don’t know for certain), should be dealt with legally. Like by filing charges against the people arranging and doing the stalking. Not by citing some UN diversity sensitivity regime to get the state to silence speech you don’t like.
Yes, Mike, nobody twisted Korea’s arm to sign the treaty. Nobody forced it to sign the National Security Law, either. What are you saying, Mike? I should have shut up when the state tried to curtail Kang Jeong-koo’s freedom of speech, too?
BTW, Mike, who interpreted “legitimate gripes about say, being harassed or attacked in public places, as somehow a factor of not being sufficiently acculturated to Korean life.” Or are we just engaging in ad hominem?
Fine. Then go after them for violating “right to privacy.” More power to you. But Vandom’s letter goes even further. Again, I quote:
The line she cites as a violation of Article 4 of the ICERD — and hence both a “prohibited act” and “punishable by law” — is “동남아 근로는 백안시하고 파란눈의 외국인에 지나치게 관대하다…” Which, coincidentally, is SBS’s line, not theirs. Now, the irony of citing a line admitting Korean racism as an example of “promoting intolerance” aside, YOU might be comfortable with the state prohibiting such kind of speech, but I’M not. Or perhaps it will take some Korean netizen going after your blog or mine to realize just how bad an idea this really is.
If said legal protections include “banning speech that might hurt their ethnic/religious feelings,” you’ll get the same arguments from me.
Cute, Mike. Let’s see what Uncle Marmot had to say when, instead of those mean knuckle-dragging nativist right-wingers, it was ultra-lefty pro-North Korean radicals getting attacked:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/.....nd-dumber/
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2005/.....ready-won/
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/.....kes-again/
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/.....-15-years/
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2003/.....ng-circus/
What’s that you said, Mike? “Oh my, Robert went to bat for the lefties, too, when it was a free speech issue! And bashed the righties for attacking them!”
It’s OK, Mike. No need to apologize. Just let me fire back with a little political ad hominem of my own and say it amazes me how you lefty ACLU types can be so concerned about human rights and civil liberties, except, of course, when they conflict with your highest political value, “DIVERSITY.”
I might also add, incidentally, that there are a lot of human rights lawyers (and editorialists for the Hankyoreh!) who might disagree with what appears to be your assertion that constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties like freedom of speech are “completely meaningless” in this country.
Well, only partly. As I cited above, Vandom’s letter goes beyond simply trying to stop stalking and invasions of privacy to include a warning that intolerant speech itself was illegal and legally actionable. That doesn’t deserve kudos, and although Korea signed the treaty, how much it reflect “Korean standards” — legal, cultural or whatever — I dare not speculate.
Feel free, Mike, to give as many kudos as you like. As for “Korea” — either its political leaders or the voters — wanting to be a “multicultural society,” all I intend to say at this point is that’s a very, very debatable contention.
Of course, however, this supposedcommitment to diversity involves an Orwellian redefinition of the term, because it excludes those forms of belief, speech and conduct that, despite their not involvingany physical harm to others, offends whatever other
valuessentiments happen to bein vogue among the PC crowd. Thesepeople shouldn’t be allowed towrzp themselves in the banner of diversity, let alone have it handed to them, because it’s precisely what they oppose by calling for restrictions on free speech.Let me keep it simple — the point is that the moves to pressure a private company to limit access to the site isn’t just “speech” but advocating actual action such as following people, taking pictures, and actively interfering with their private lives. I’ll defend a neo-Nazi’s right to parade down my street, but if they start sending their thugs and agents to my residence, monitor my movements and social contacts, rummage through my trash, exchange information such as my home address, phone numbers, and such — that goes beyond mere “free speech.”
And as for silly conventions regarding Korean photo law, like them or not, I follow them, and use as much common sense in editing pictures in the few cases I don’t have a written permission to ensure I don’t end up with a lawsuit. As most Korean photographers assured me, being careful and following the law as much as possible (regarding people’s privacy) is usually enough.
No, this isn’t the same as using the National Security Law to crack down on lefties, and no I don’t agree with every aspect of Korean law. But the point I’m making is that the way these things are playing out is positive to me, because it’s being done on Korean legal and social terms — not foreigners just simply crying “foul” and bringing in their values willy nilly.
I’m not picking and choosing legal standards. Do I believe the NSL to be legitimate in most cases of its use? No. Do I believe I have the right, like any other “국민” to not be racially singled out, followed, and my right to privacy (and even to the security of my person) violated? Yes.
And as for your mention of “ad hominem” attacks, I engaged in none. Don’t know where you’re picking that up, other than my pointing out to some of your more choice commenters from the past that it’s funny to be blamed for my own harassment as being the apparent result of my cultural ignorance (don’t call the police, don’t report harrassment!) even as it’s obvious the real problem isn’t “culture” but police incompetence/bad rules. Now, things are changing, and finally a foreigner got proper treatment of his case by the police.
And as for your apparent belief that “diversity” is the highest political value for “lefty ACLU types”, you need to update your information about us from the outdated political discourse of the 80’s and 90’s. Say what you will, but no one’s talking about that anymore.
I’m not talking about fairness in representation, redress through affirmative action, or rainbow coalitions. I’m talking about basic citizen rights such as equal protection of the laws and the right to not be harrassed or worse in the streets. And that’s what the Korean law guarantees me and any other human being present on the peninsula. And an obvious hate site that elevates sentiment to action is worthy of censure or censorship, especially since that’s what private organizations such as Naver have the right to do.
And if Stormfront.org advocated the logging and following of the activities of actual Jewish people, it’s not just their idiotic Nazism that’s the problem. That’s physically dangerous. And quite possibly illegal. At any rate, more than enough grounds to terminate a Naver listing, Facebook account, or MySpace page.
OK, Mike, I’ll keep it simple for you, too. Vandom’s letter went beyond criticism of AES for its engagement in stalking and harassment to remind Naver that saying something like “동남아 근로는 백안시하고 파란눈의 외국인에 지나치게 관대하다…” is prohibited and punishable by law, citing Korea’s participation in a UN treaty. Need to see it again, Mike? OK, here you go:
That, my friend, is arguing that speech — and pretty inoffensive speech like “동남아 근로는 백안시하고 파란눈의 외국인에 지나치게 관대하다…” at that — is illegal. Granted, she might be right, but then again, posting pro-North Korean stuff on the ‘Net might also be illegal, but I wouldn’t nark out a pro-North Korean blog to Naver citing the National Security Law, as I don’t believe in the National Security Law.
And yes, Mike, you did engage in ad hominem, and judging from your response, off-topic ad hominem at that, except for your accusation — very much implied — that I was bitching for right/left ideological reasons (“Funny how people who live by the “when in Rome” maxim become card-carrying members of the ACLU in a country where that is itself completely meaningless as soon as they spot what is apparently some “liberal”-looking excess.”)
Actually, Mike, I was just responding to your childish accusation. As for the response quoted above, I’ll just let it stand on its own.
Yup, sophistry this was — because I was just being bored and made an argument that I didn’t even like. But I did warn that I was only picking it up for the sake of argument. Because AES is so vilified here, I figured I would try giving a fair argument for its existence (note the focus here), and see how people respond.
Having said that…
I am not interested in justifying those means. I think they are terrible, and that’s why I dislike AES, among other reasons, as I stated previously.
For the purpose of this argument only, I’m not interested in resolving “the entire problem”, as it were. I am trying to see if people would agree that focusing on the NSETs’ half of the problem is acceptable.
I don’t think there is any question that there are at least some NSETs who violate Korean law or otherwise engage in inappropriate behavior. Then, why is it a problem that certain citizen groups exist to curb such behavior — again, given that NSET community does not seem to be interested in self-regulation?
What actions do you expect foreign teachers to undertake as a group to regulate others who share the same occupation?
“What actions do you expect foreign teachers to undertake as a group to regulate others who share the same occupation?”
I think he means that foreigners who are strangers to one another and who are scattered, one per public school, across Korea, should be doing what AES is doing. So AES doesn’t have to.
You know, similar to the way ajosshi colleagues in public schools who molest students and sexually harass female college-age teacher interns turn each other in.
Hilarious.
Oh, and I got your ad hominem right here: The Korean, it is becoming apparent that you are incapable of writing anything without ‘bragging’ that you are a law student or lawyer. Here’s a clue: nobody else cares. Being a lawyer is not as rare or as impressive as you imagine.
“Yup, sophistry this was …” Get over yourself. Here’s another clue: real lawyers don’t have the time, the energy, or the inclination to brag to strangers online about what a legal
dipshithotshot they are.“I don’t think there is any question that there are at least some NSETs who violate Korean law or otherwise engage in inappropriate behavior.” [emphasis added]
Wrong. It is THE question. Illegal, we can understand. If Korea decides to test foreigners for illegal drugs every week instead of every year, or if Korea decides to criminalize physical contact or being alone with Korean women, so be it. But what behavior is merely “inappropriate”? In whose opinion? And what are the consequences? And who imposes them?
If I see Koreans smoking cigarettes around other people and spitting in the streets — behavior I consider inappropriate — in a U.S. city, do I attempt to correct their behavior? Do I initiate a web campaign to stalk Korean nationals in the hope of getting as many of them arrrested and deported as possible?
I think most Americans would tell me to get a life and to mind my own business. I think most Koreans would tell me the same thing.
There is no “NSET half of the problem.” There are insecure Korean men upset that westerners are dating “their” women. And they’ve reacted by engaging in some extremely unsavory if not illegal behavior, including stalking and dumpster diving for used condoms. (Yuck.) Naver had an opportunity to take a strong stand against such treatment of foreigners, but declined to do so.
Another week, another black eye for Korea and its national image.
Ho hum.
AES’s manager Yie Eun-woong’s comment in the LA Times story about ATEK and the NHRCK petition back in February was revealing:
“The outsiders make themselves become discriminated against,” said Yie, who declined to reveal his profession. “Foreign teachers get much more pay — and enjoy all kinds of pleasures — while better-qualified South Koreans are struggling with their unemployment.”
Ah, it’s the ‘outsiders’ fault for the discrimination. Not comments like this, from a Chosun.com article at the end of June that sat at the top of Naver, a potential audience of millions:
“Foreign instructors of low character frequently toss women away without compunction after attaining their goal of meeting them for money and sexual relations, so many of the women have their lives ruined by abortion or, of course, sexually transmitted diseases.”
He seems to like attributing to ‘low quality’ foreign teachers (read: white men living in Korea) a long list of outrageous acts every chance he gets. So they may say they only care about ‘illegal’ or ‘low quality’ teachers, but, after getting riled up after reading such sensational quotes, how is the angry reader to determine which white man on the street is a ‘low quality’ teacher? Statements like that only serve to make people suspicious of all white men, which is exactly what he wants. This is a group of people who openly admit they formed their cafe after seeing pictures of white men with Korean women, after all.
“Foreign teachers get much more pay — and enjoy all kinds of pleasures…” Gee, what ‘pleasures’ could he be talking about? And what gender could these “better-qualified South Koreans” – the true victims – be?
I think you hit the crux of the question. I think as an American, you are totally entitled to do that. As an American, you should be free to influence the determination of who is allowed in America, and who is not. Which answers your questions of:
In Korean people’s opinion, of course — NSETs live in Korea. And the consequences are public humiliation. And the Korean public, aided by their democratically elected government and media, imposes that consequence. This is the same process that happens in any functioning society.
Still waiting for a concrete list of legal, feasible, effective ways law-abiding, culturally respectful English teachers can get their badboy colleagues to quit using drugs or posting on the internet tales and pics of sexcapades with Korean women.
As a head instructor at a Korean university, I had to confront two colleagues whose drinking habits were interfering with their job performance. Both were occasionally cancelling classes because of hangovers. I and other teachers became aware of the problem because we all lived in the same building and saw each other’s comings and goings. Since I had no supervisory authority over the men, I could only listen to their denials. I told my superior, a Korean professor and assistant dean, about the problem. He was concerned but didn’t want to use his authority to act on the matter.
At another university, a dean with an Oxbridge degree wailed to me about an incompetent teacher he had interviewed and hired over the phone. The fellow had quit his non-teaching job in Australia and was loafing around on a beach in the Philippines, but hey, he was a native speaker with a master’s degree and a pulse, and therefore qualified to teach Korean freshmen who stayed up until 2 AM the last four years studying to get into one of Korea’s top universities. The Koreans hired this guy and expected me to solve a problem they created.
Self-regulation? Yeah, right. Foreign teachers are not responsible for regulating the behavior of fellow teachers hired and sponsored by Korean employers.
i had a brilliant flash of idea. korea, with its bad reputation already, should go all out and be the first nation to only openly advertise the english teacher jobs to women only.
no AIDS test required, no nothing. just being a woman who speaks english will do.
the ajossis will be happy the ajummas will be happy, the kids will be happy,
the only unhappy people will be the korean agassis who like foreign men – oh well. they could always go abroad.
Neither does the kyopo community in the U.S.
Yet, we manage to get by without a prominent citizen’s group agitating specifically against Koreans, thank Ghod. Think on that.
_I_ wouldn’t touch “Stormfront” with a 10-foot pole, while it appears people like “cm”, “pawi”, “wank-on”, and “The Metropolemician” are intimately familiar with it.
WTF is wrong with you?
Really, “the Korean”, how would you feel if there was a group inciting resentment against you and your family simply because some Koreans in the U.S. decimate native bear populations for their gall bladders, engage in widespread prostitution, and occasionally commit mass murder?
dogbertt, i saw the president of this group mothers against illegal aliens on fox’s o’ reilly once. does it count?
No, because it is not targetting Koreans or Asians specifically.
And, illegal aliens have committed a crime. Most NSETs are not criminals.
i cannot view the clip myself but
here’s what she said, (maybe it was neil cavuto)
but unlike the kyopos, i still felt bad for the group she was targeting, even though she was not targeting asians or koreans.
AES seems to be now hunting down an illegal teacher earning 7 million won every month. It is said that he has only working visa. How can one explain an honest teacher working hard with E-2 visa at hagwon gets paid 1,800,000 won per month, while an illegal teacher earns 7,000,000 won per month? I guess driving out illegal teachers will eventually help legitimate teachers’ earning.
Correction: It is said that he has only working visa. –> He has only tourist visa.
You’ve apparently mastered some of the technical skills of lawyering while having skipped the classes on using them with integrity. Given your admission that you are deliberately engaged in sophistry, not in the interest of solving the problem but, apparently, just for the sport of stirring up more unnecessary controversy about a subject that already has generated more heat than light, I’m thus tempted to just dismiss you as irresponsible and unethical.
Your latest, though, provides an opportunity further to fisk the sort of mentality that you exemplify – a mentality so addicted to argument for argument’s sake that it almost necessarily indulges itself in mere sophistry and one incapable of understanding why certain problems cannot be addressed in isolation from the whole, viz., as other already have noted there is no means by which expat English teachers can effectively self-regulate here, since Korean law does not afford them that right. They have no power to issue visas or hire and fire. Many members of the expat teaching community do, nevertheless, coment on the inappropriate behavios of their collegaues from time to time, both in the workplace (e.g., Sonagi’s experience) and in the press (too many examples to cite). The problem thus cannot be broken down into discrete parts to be addressed separately.
Moreover, you’ve also introduced another red herring – no serious contributor to the discussion is suggesting that AES has no right to exist or to express its opinions within the bounds of the law. I happen to think that the laws effectively limiting free speech in Korea go to far, but that is neither here nor there. The fact is that AES has gone well beyond what is permissible under Korean law. Their conduct is clearly impermissible, and such behaviour therefore should, in accordance with prevailing leagl standards, be curtailed. Your alleged focus on part of the problem is nothing more than an attempt to obfuscate the nature of the problem and to muddy the discussion of appropriate responses by introducing impertinent strawmen.
isn’t that obvious? as a website administrator, to not allow such offensive, or could be deemed offensive materials to be posted, as have been gathered and evidenced on anti-esl in the first place would have been a start.
occasionlly committing mass mrder? one time is not occasionally. but then, seeing how your people go on these rampages just about every other week, i can see how your vision is blurry.
ah, cho sung hee, the sampoong for the dorky guy with glasses getting drunk in hongdae.
tsk, tsk, tsk…
@131 — I used Stormfront.org because they have actually posted at my blog several times, most notably to laud Korea for apparently believing in the purity of certain races and the wisdom of keeping them separate. So, the example was not only cogent, it was a concrete example of comments I don’t erase, speaking to the question of how I look at censorship. Neo-Nazis and anti-Semites show up on my blog from time to time because I talk about race, and Google hooks my blog into their search keywords sometimes. So, if I post about a Nazi-themed cafe in Shinchon, I sometimes encounter some interesting people online. So, I don’t see how this was being “polemic.”
@ 121 — You’re not seeing my point. I’m not limited to agreeing with the entire text of Vandom’s letter, or stuck to every example she gives. It works like this: say she’s giving examples A, B, C, and D to make the argument that AES violates Naver’s TOS agreement. This isn’t an argument in which one condition hinges off another or a deficiency in one example invalidates them all. It’s a list of item designed to pass the bar of Naver’s own test of whether something violates its TOS. And given the ample examples of clearly violating established legal principles of personal privacy, in addition to recent new laws regarding targeted attacks against a social group, it passes muster. Just because I don’t agree with example D (say that’s the NK example you give, and something I’d probably agree with you on), it doesn’t torpedo her argument. And as long as any censoring isn’t done solely on the basis of D, which it wouldn’t be, I’m fine. Stalking people to their homes, putting up pictures of them, rummaging through their garbage, advocating citizen patrols to monitor foreigners for “immoral” behavior, actually reporting private activities to their employers that have resulted in them being fired, and clearly towing the line that foreign men and Korean women dating is somehow undesirable and requires ACTION — that’s enough for me.
As for my alleged “ad hominem attacks”, please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Just because I remarked on a personal aspect of an argument doesn’t mean it’s “ad hominem” for one, and if it relates directly to the argument at hand (namely, what I see as a contradiction in your way of looking at things that change depending on circumstances), it’s not “ad hominem.” I simply note that your approach to Korea and how non-Koreans should exist in society is along the lines of “when in Rome…”, which is something I recall you as having said before, both publicly and privately. If I am MISREMEMBERING, then I apologize, but the way I see it, it’s a seeming contradiction that you seem to believe foreigners should live this way, yet imply that they are imposing their selfish standards from the outside, when they are actually working within the Korean system.
Agree or disagree, or even if I’m actually misremembering, I’m certainly not engaged in any “ad hominem” attacks, which would be me bringing in an IRRELEVANT personal attribute to make my argument, e.g. “Robert doesn’t have any sense, anyway. You know he doesn’t even watch Battlestar Galactica. What does HE know?”
That’s ad hominem. And contrary to popular misconception, a personal insult is also not ad hominem. It’s just what it is, a personal attack, one that even the speaker would admit isn’t part of the argument, e.g. “Well, well…you’re a butthead!” Or words far worse.
yuna:
the only unhappy people will be the korean agassis who like foreign men
And the western women wondering why the hell these losers in shiny silver suits think they are so shit hot.
Oh, I should have added…
Not that I admit to having engaged in any personal attacks, which I didn’t.
Peter:
AES seems to be now hunting down an illegal teacher earning 7 million won every month.
So what? Korean academics with drive and skill can make that much. Why shouldn’t anyone else?
It is said that he has only working visa.
-You mean tourist visa, as you said. Why aren’t AES hunting down the Koreans that pay him all this money instead? Ah, because that would be telling.
How can one explain an honest teacher working hard with E-2 visa at hagwon gets paid 1,800,000 won per month, while an illegal teacher earns 7,000,000 won per month?
-If Koreans are still paying 1.8 to teach in Seoul, the world has truly come to a standstill. That was crap 10 years ago and it’s crap today. You get the teachers you deserve.
I guess driving out illegal teachers will eventually help legitimate teachers’ earning.
-Out of the good-hearted kind nature of Koreans to help their foreign brethren, I suppose. Make me puke.
By the way, Peter Kim. I am utterly disappointed in myself for not being disgusted as a human being to hear that someone in Seoul is being “hunted.” Thanks for totally removing my connection to the human race, Korea.
Just throwing it out there:
Couldn’t Korea eliminate virtually all “illegal” foreign teachers simply by licensing foreigners to teach freelance? There would need to be some restrictions, of course, to prevent teachers from poaching students from hagwons. But it would make everything legal, and the government could then get some tax revenue from all the black market English lessons going on. Come to think of it, doesn’t the existence of such a huge black market for English lessons sort of make the case by itself?
Other countries do this, and they have not fallen into chaos as a result. Just saying.
#146
If you do not like the word “hunt”, I am willing to switch it to “follow”.
Mr. Mao,
And please understand that my first language is not English. I did not mean to offend you. I started learning English alphabets when I was 13 years old. And I never got hagwon lessons for my English.
‘You mean tourist visa, as you said. Why aren’t AES hunting down the Koreans that pay him all this money instead? Ah, because that would be telling. ‘
are you mexican?
Right, because everyone on this thread is genuinely dedicated to solving the problem by hurling snark and personal insult, while I am distracting everyone by providing a devil’s advocate position. Gee, don’t let me bother y’all — go on talking about how AES is a group of drunken ajosshis pissed off at Korean women dating white men. That will solve the problem once and for all.
Oh, I do think many on this thread are suggesting precisely that. But if that’s your opinion, why can’t you just say you agree with me?
@thekorean it’s just that sperwer doesn’t like young, clever, coherent korean-american men clevering themselves. i noticed that he also raises many redundant issues with wangkon who rarely says anything which pisses anyone off.
it’s the behavior of a typical once-was-an-alpha-male in the jungle.
I don’t care for ANYONE exercising their cleverness at the expense of reasoned discussion dedicated to principled resolution of serious issues – particularly when they know better but (i) go ahead anywhere and thumb their noses at the standards to which they so smugly start off by saying they (unlike everyone else) adhere and then (ii) justify themselves by saying “everyone” else does it too. That’s not cleverness, it’s cowardice.
And I’m very disappointed that you choose to interpret this on ad hominem grounds.
@thekorean:
Still waiting for you to elaborate on what you expect nice, respectable foreign teachers to do regarding indiscreet, unprofessional, and sometimes law-breaking teachers hired and sponsored by Korean employers.
Isn’t it obvious that website administrators like the folks at English Spectrum are engaging in the very activities that have fueled the crusade led by AES and the KT’s Kang Shin-who?
To back up The Korean, though, I don’t like AES (I think their primary area of interest really is white male-Korean female relationships), and if they are engaged in illegal stalking, they should be prosecuted for it. But at the same time, it would be nice if English teachers — perhaps through ATEK? — were to show a bit of self-reflection (형식적이라도) and present an image to the public that they were trying to work WITH them to ensure quality English education. Yes, the quality of media reports needs to improve, and yes, the tactics of guys like AES need to be addressed, but attaining such goals might be made easier if English teachers got up and said, “Yes, we’ve read all the stories about English teachers getting busted for mailing themselves pot, engaging in improper sexual relations with students, engaging in online activities unbecoming of a teacher, etc, and we’re sorry for and embarrassed by it, and as teachers, we’ll do our best to prevent such misbehavior in the future.” I can’t help but feel that the image being presented now (however unfair it may or may not be) is one of unrepentant foreigners more concerned with the rights of drug criminals and sex fiends and bitching about news reports than with the safety of Korean students or improving Korean education.
“Your people”?? I thought we were both Americans, nulji.
Oh wait, you must mean “white” Americans. OK, then, I’ll bite.
Yes, white Americans have committed mass murder more often than have Korean immigrants.
By the same token, native Koreans in Korea have committed far, far, far, far, far more many sex crimes than have English teachers in Korea.
So, to be consistent, you should either (a) not support AES; or (b) support an AES-like group in the U.S. that targets Koreans living in America. But you don’t.
To paraphrase, “a foolish hypocrisy is the hobgoblin of little minds”, and by that token, your mind is one of the littlest around.
Unlike racists like pawi, I do not support targetting or harassing illegal immigrants. They are for the most part weak people in precarious positions and it is not sporting to torment them. I do support going after our elected officials, who are the ones really responsible for our immigration mess.
By denying illegal immigrants access to health care and education, we weaken our society further and shoot ourselves in the feet.
Not true. Sperwer, like me, hates hypocrisy and comments on it when it rears its ugly head.
As far as clever, I have bested “the Korean” in legal arguments before and I expect at some point I shall again. Or maybe vice versa, who knows. That doesn’t mean I (or Sperwer) dislike him.
“I can’t help but feel that the image being presented now (however unfair it may or may not be) is one of unrepentant foreigners more concerned with the rights of drug criminals and sex fiends and bitching about news reports than with the safety of Korean students or improving Korean education.”
Yes, that is definitely the image being presented. However, it’s not English teachers doing the presenting. It does not matter how sincere we are in our desire to improve Korean education. We will never be able to present that image to the Korean masses when groups like AES are hard at working making up alternative images for us. We will never be able to speak to the Korean public as effectively as Koreans can. It’s not just language, either. It’s culture. We can arm ourselves with all the facts and statistics we want. It won’t matter. Getting Koreans to believe that their social problems are the fault of foreigners is shooting fish in a barrel. AES can keep this up all century if they want to. We will always be whispering our protests while AES has the megaphone.
no, it’s not obvious. (were you being sarcastic?)
but this is like a chicken and egg argument, which is what i am trying to say.
one needs to break the cycle and the cycle is not going to be broken by showing AES up for what they are.
sperwer, you know i jest.
and i only jest with people i like.
don’t go invoking ad-hominem – that’s just so- P.C.
what you mean in a real court or here on the Judge Alex ppl vs the expats?
‘“Your people”?? I thought we were both Americans, nulji.’ dog
‘Right, and Chul-soo never games the system, nosiree bob.’ dog
well, when you treat me like your fellow american, i’ll act your fellow american. tell me, why do you use the word ‘kyopo’? ‘my fellow american’ my ass. not racist? my ass!
Yes, and getting foreigners to believe that all their problems are the fault of AES, the Korean press and Korean nativism is, likewise, like shooting fish in a barrel. Yes, AES probably has more influence than a group like that should have. WHY their propaganda seems so effective is a subject those in the English teaching community might wish to reflect on, however.
I refer to my earlier posts about my personal, unsuccessful efforts in dealing with unprofessional behaviors of foreign teachers hired and sponsored by and under the subordinate control of Koreans. As an organized group, ATEK can exercise influence with its members and with the foreign teacher community at large. Individual teachers, even those like myself with nomimal titles and administrative responsibilities, have little if any influence with fellow teachers who flout local norms. They don’t care what we think anymore than they care what Koreans think. In my experience, Koreans expect peer pressue to work among foreigners the same way it works among Koreans, but of course, it doesn’t.
correction: peer pressure
Isn’t this like sort of saying, I hate getting punched in the face. Only problem being, one side says he gets punched too often, and the other side says *he* gets punched too often. Whatever. Let the punches fly, but make sure you don’t get your ass banned by Robert. Cuz it’s all pretty entertaining, if you ask me, and it’s not like a valid and educational observation will be counted as any less so in my eyes just because it’s wrapped around a personal insult or two.
Once again, I must remind commenters that most foreign teachers are hired and sponsored by Koreans. If Koreans don’t like the quality of English teachers in Korea, then they need to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of those responsible.
At both universities where I worked, a few foreign teachers caused problems. University officials responded not by confronting the individual teachers but by passing punitive regulations that applied to all foreign teachers. This angered the nice, respectable 80% who resented being treated like students owing to the behavior of other adults hired by Koreans, and this resentment made it harder for “foreign buffer” teachers like me to balance the expectations, needs, and wishes of the foreign staff and the Korean staff.
Of course; and no offense taken. But in the context of the discussion, and given that the appetite of a lot of participants on this board for that sort of stuff exceeds the gluttonous impluses of a starving pride of lions for young impala, it’s an unfortunate distraction from the merits of the issues.
the word 교포 in itself has no derogatory meaning.
(i hope i don’t wake shakuhachi up)
the only tiny tiny sphere where it might be construed negative is in the battleground of the expat blogs- where the expats, in their heated discussion with the english-speaking koreans-americans would invoke this “what do you know about korea, you’re just a kyopo!” card.
i think we should now all invent another card, for the ex-expat who once lived in korea no longer does, but still wants to contribute to the fruitful discussion and give it a name of ex2pat. and make that card of a lower rank against the kyopo.
so far
korean korean who speaks both languages (me) > expat who resides in korea currently who speak both languages fluently > expat who cannot speak korean who live in korea > kyopo who can speak korean fluently and ex2pat who can speak korean (equally ranked) > kyopo who cannot speak korean fluently and has never lived in korea > ex2pat who once lived in korea but couldn’t speak the language > ex2pat who once lived in korea and couldn’t speak the language but pretends to
and one should carefully consider where one falls under this rank before invoking the card against the other.
PS having a korean partner does not affect any ranks.
@JW are you setting yourself up for some punches?
@sonagi
i know and i agree with you 100 percent – that is i always start off with the ansatz “the koreans are the most to blame for their english education craze and i don’t even think they need to learn english” i personally would like to blame 2mb but that’s just because i want to blame him for everything.
so, we are in this mess and i think the koreans should ease off their english craze, have a better selection procedure in place, but while this is coming (which i am sure it will) it’s what the english teachers can or cannot do to improve their quality of life in the meanwhile that i am arguing and that going after AES in that way is not the way
I’ve post some racist comments at the site, they removed immediately.
Yes, dogfart once said to me “You gyopo!” , in response to my statement that America wasn’t a white country no more. I totally wasn’t aware that gyopo could be used as derogatory term until that moment.
Here come the toxic avengers again, boxing people into arbitrary little categories as to who is deserving of respect and who deserving of derision. This thread just turned super dumb again. What say we turn it back over to the “the(s),” namely thekorean, the Marmot and the Metropolitician, and salvage it.
BTW, nobody uses kyopo as a term of derision, except as an ironic prod to kyopo who use the term “expat” as a term of derision. But then, some folks are irony impaired, and have difficulty putting the horse before the cart.
oh, goody, i was waiting for the next installment of “the trials and tribulations of a modern day uriah heep”.
But then again, it’s not the employers mailing themselves pot or bragging about their sexual escapades on the ‘Net. Frankly, I happened to agree with you that its the employers who are most responsible, but there is more than enough responsibility to go around, including some for the educational authorities, immigration officials and yes, the teachers themselves.
Good point. Apparently that’s what happens when young kids travel abroad.
A Korean mother who is an acquaintance of ours brought her 2 children to the US for the education (the daughter a high school student, and the son a middle school student). She rented an apartment for them, enrolled them in school and then returned to Korea. Needless to say, their apartment became an alcohol and drug haven.
One cannot place all the blame on the children themselves when they are simply placed abroad sans supervision or instruction.
Likewise, immature kids just out of college transported to Korea, a nation where sex is so much more available without adequate preparation and then left to their own devices cannot realistically be expected to behave as gentlemen, just as someone else pointed out here. The blame for that lies more with those who import English teachers without assuming any further responsibility for those they sponsor.
The Korean public is right to express concern about the practices of their educators, and if expat web sites are touting misbehavior, they need to self-edit. Anyone who has served as a cultural ambassador (and presumably the majority here are such) knows better than to flaunt such things in a foreign host culture.
How very Korean of you yuna, creating your own little hierarchy on everyone here. And then trying to foist it up everyone. I noticed you put yourself at the top and made that position unquestionable to those whom you placed under you (nearly everyone). How convenient, your highnessness.
yes cmm. thanks for noticing. i was worried that you might fail to notice this very important fact so i put in brackets (me).
this rule should be exercised accompanied with frequent interjections of “whddayaknow, you kyopo!”, “take that, you whinging ex2pat!”, “eat my shorts, you babelfish user!” and that very special one i’d never heard of before “you speak like a USC graduate!” which was said to wangkon at one point (i don’t remember whom by)
Is there really no effort to draw a very distinct difference between clearly illegal activity and relatively harmless, completely common, unsubstantiated and anonymous internet chatter that primarily offends chauvinist assholes?
Are these really being lumped together as if they’re anywhere near equivalent?
Regarding Sonagi’s comments about the Koreans responsible for bringing teachers to Korea, A few weeks ago, during the legislative furor in the wake of the Nayeong incident, GNP Rep. Lee Ju-yeong called for stricter E-2 requirements, described foreign English teachers as “especially potential child molesters” and said “When considering the fact that schools and hagwons try to hide the sex crimes committed by these foreign teachers, then the number of undisclosed crimes would be a whole lot more.”
So then, if schools and hagwons try to hide sex crimes committed by foreign teachers, then obviously the thing to do is to create stricter requirements for the foreign teachers, not punish the schools and hagwons allowing problem teachers to move on and find new jobs.
WHY their propaganda seems so effective is a subject those in the English teaching community might wish to reflect on, however.
Is it the English teaching community’s fault Koreans are more than willing to pay people with no more than a university education more money than Koreans in a similar position make, or that almost 60 years of US military presence with the gijachon archipelago has engendered feelings of hostility for white males? Potty-mouthed bragging about sexual exploits with Korean women has a pedigree that goes much farther back than the presence of large numbers of foreign English teachers in Korea, and I imagine that the image of child molesting English teachers piggybacks on the pre-existing image of U.S. soldiers as rapists/killers of young women (from Lee Geum-i through the 1995 subway incident to the 2002 middle school incident).
That said, the insistence by teachers and even ATEK that AES is essentially ‘making it up’ or that teachers are ‘innocent’ of their accusations is a bit of a head-scratcher. That they are prone to exaggeration and conflation, I have no doubt, but I imagine that some, or even many, of the cases they describe have occurred.
Mr. Koehler,
Do you think the standards that English teachers are being held to are even remotely fair? No English teacher would ever claim that we, as a group, are perfect. There will always be an asshole bragging on the internet. There will always be a moron lighting up a joint. We foreign teachers are every bit as fallible as our Korean counterparts.
And yet there will never be the hasty generalizations made about Korean teachers. A Korean teacher gets caught fondling students, taking bribes, etc., no one will claim that Korean teachers should be expelled. This is what it means to be the “them” in a country that defines itself as an “us.”
It took one traffic accident on the part of the US military to set off months of demonstrations and discrimination. I can guarantee you that within the next year, an English teacher will do something worse than cause a traffic accident. Anecdotes are speaking louder than statistics. Like I said, AES can keep this up all century.
Granfalloon — Do your research. The United States also defines itself as an “us”, and “we” (not just Lou Dobbs and me, but official government policy) don’t really take kindly to immigrants committing crimes, especially — but not only — illegal immigrants. There are a ton of non-citizen “Americans” who have found themselves deported due to criminal history: about 113,000 in 2008, and Janet Napolitano says she wants to give the boot to more.
Only difference here is nobody in America gives a crap about learning foreign languages, so there aren’t a ton of whiny “language teachers” sniveling about consequences for their transgressive behavior. The United States mainly imports fruit pickers, who for the most part keep their heads down and work, work, work.
God, do I hate the English teachers. No, Granfalloon, as a group you English teachers are not perfect at all — as a group, you’re snivelly losers. Some individuals are okay, but if they know what’s good for them they’d keep it under wraps that they’re in any way associated with your “profession”. I’d never let any of you have anything so good as an iPhone.
[Stand by to blow past 400 comments, Robert!]
Well, actually, I was thinking more along the lines of, if english teachers knew what was *really* good for them, they would create an even bigger stink by whining more than ever before because that way future potential teachers would become less disposed to considering korea as a destination which will have mainly two salutary and related effects — market demand will remain strong thereby increasing wages for english teachers remaining in the market, which will in turn get a whole bunch of ahjummas pissed off and up in arms, ready to fight the good fight against negative stereotypes.
At the end of the day, you people just CANNOT lose!
Don’t hold back, counselor. Tell us how you really feel.
Especially about this: there are a ton of countries that take it upon themselves to educate a significant portion of the population in English language. Hiring native speaking teachers is often (but not always . . .) a part of this. Why is there so little acrimony about this in, say, Poland as opposed to Korea?
Some of us are teachers, but not teachers of English. Are we snivelly losers, too, or is it just the English-teaching variety?
As an aside, should I also expect AES to stalk me and just accept it as a consequence of having white skin?
Personally, I loathe sanctimony. Especially when I can think of several individuals who, although on non-educational visas and describing their profession as being something other than education, nonetheless also tutor in English.
God knows Counselor Carr might never do that, but there are many who do. For myself, I say, bring on the outrage – it thins the competition, so it’s good for business.
@121
That, my friend, is arguing that speech — and pretty inoffensive speech like “동남아 근로는 백안시하고 파란눈의 외국인에 지나치게 관대하다…” at that — is illegal.
No, it isn’t. Instead of reading the treaty for what it says, you’ve decided to come to the conclusion that it bans “inoffensive speech.” No wonder you are upset. But just like the misleading title of this post claiming the call was to “Shut Down” AES you’re arguing against your own constructions.
The article in question doesn’t ban “inoffensive speech,” rather it seeks to “condemn all propaganda and all organizations which are based on ideas or theories of superiority of one race or group of persons of one colour or ethnic origin, or which attempt to justify or promote racial hatred and discrimination in any form.”
The focus is on “organizations” and “propaganda” and the “promotion” of “racial hatred and discrimination”.
What you have provided is a simple sentence. You’d be hard pressed to convince even the most sympathetic court that you’ve met the most basic elements.
On the other hand, showing an organization of 17,000 that creates “promotional posters” by users with names like “get out of my holy motherland” and “racistsibal” calling foreigners “black pig[s]” and saying they “have AIDS” and are “targeting your children” and that goes further and actively prints out such posters advocating people “look coldly” on non-Korean races and distributes these “promotional posters” in the street; and then conducts vigilante activities by stalking and tracking by race – well, in that case you may have an argument under the said article.
You can certainly disagree and say that the argument is a weak one; that the threshold hasn’t been met, that the group is more of a citizens’ watchdog type organization than a hate group, or perhaps that the outsiders have brought the discrimination on themselves by having sex and smoking marijuana, etc., etc.
But let’s be honest about what is within the purview of the ICERD treaty. It’s not prohibiting “inoffensive speech” and neither is Vandom’s letter.
Just the same, there is plenty to find fault with in the ICERD if you are looking for a treaty that puts forward a U.S. Constitution, First Amendment style protection on free speech. Article 4 of the ICERD, for example, would not have allowed the Nazis to march in Skokie, indeed a Nazi party would be untenable under the treaty (so no “Stormfront.org” either). As Americans we can lament such a loss (or not as the case may be), but other countries can go a different route if they choose to.
Europeans, for example, have come to the conclusion that there’s no value in Nazi speech. The differing views of Americans on that issue came to a head in the LICRA v. Yahoo! case, which dealt with the online sale of Nazi memorabilia in France. A French court had no problem banning that “speech,” but a US court differed and said “the First Amendment precludes enforcement within the United States” – where that speech originated. Other cases were to follow, however, and the upshot was that Yahoo revised its policy to prohibit “offer[s] or trade in items that are associated with or could be used to promote or glorify groups that are known principally for hateful and violent positions directed at others based on race or similar factors.” (Some thought that was a pretty good result despite the contretemps in the US courts). Similarly, Google removed “Stormfront.org” search results from their French and German sites to comply with the respective laws. I have a hard time concluding that this leads us down a dangerous road.
Not every country has the same approach as the US. I could be wrong, but I suspect your beef is with laws – like ICERD Art. 4 & ICCPR Art. 20 (“Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.”) – that conflict with the American position that you are accustomed to. As an American myself I can sympathize in some respects.
EXCUSE ME??? “At the expense of reasoned discussion dedicated to principled resolution of serious issues”???? How can you say that with a straight face given the quality of comments leading up to the point when I started contributing to this thread? What “reasoned discussion dedicated to principled resolution of serious issues” exists on this thread, when this entire thread is little more than petty sniping, condescension and name-calling both against AES and among commenters? And even if some of the conversation might charitably qualify as “reasoned discussion”, how did any of my arguments stop any of those discussions?
In contrast to the majority of the comments here, all of my arguments were made in a civil and respectful manner. I might not fully buy into them, but they are reasonable and entirely defensible. I never once engaged in a personal attack. I even tried to see past the personal attacks against me and tried to address the attempted counterpoints to my arguments. (See, e.g., comments #124, 127 above.) And I am the one who is lowering the quality of discussion here? Are you kidding me?
I would suggest ATEK’s strategy should put more focus on winning the hearts of Korean parents who are the direct clients in English education market rather than spending time and energy on fighting against AES. I doubt annoying ajjossi’s jealous of foreigners will disappear in the very near future. I think it would be more productive to assure the direct clients about English education.
#145
Mr. Mao,
My point here is that legal instructors deserves more opportunities than illegal teachers who came to Korea with tourist visa. What deserves to the illegal teachers is not 7 M won reward but deportation. Many legal NESTs deserves the money.
All the while dodging repeated requests to explain how the NSET community is supposed to “self-regulate.”
Peter Kim:
My point here is that legal instructors deserves more opportunities than illegal teachers who came to Korea with tourist visa.
-My point is that I don’t really think that illegal teachers take work away from legal teachers, nor am I naive enough to think that Koreans would pay legal teachers more if there were no illegal teachers. If wages are indeed still at 1.8, there seems to be a great deal of stagnation in the market. I think that most/all of the legal teachers I knew in my many years in Korea had illegal side jobs at one time or another. Similarly, many illegal teachers were legal for short periods.
What deserves to the illegal teachers is not 7 M won reward but deportation.
-And where should the thousands of Koreans that hire these illegal teachers be sent? Sweden? Korea is full of places where these people can make money, but are you attacking the Koreans that employ these people illegally? No, you are attacking the weaker parties that cannot defend themselves. Look to the source of the problem; it’s not foreigners. It’s Korea’s inherent corruption.
Many legal NESTs deserves the money.
-I agree. But I don’t think you can separate legal teachers from illegal. They are one and the same. The letter you printed earlier as “offensive” talked about a guy that made a bunch of money working for LG. Does Immigration raid chaebols? No. Until Korea believes in fair and equal aplication of its own laws there will always be westerners to take advantage of the cracks in Korea’s system.
I had an E-1 visa for 5 years, an E-2 for 7 months and was illegal for 2.5 years before that. While I was illegal, I had 15 legal co-workers one of whom taught English illegally IN a police station to the cops themselves. My first hagwon boss flew in two 19 year old girls from Cape Breton Island to teach kindergarten! I watched my boss bribe immigration right in front of me to turn a blind eye to my presence. I then worked for 21 months in a hagwon in Bundang that didn’t even have a business licence because it wasn’t physically large enough to get one. We had 150 students in 40 pyong! I tutored children of doctors in Kangnam, even the son of the head of a soju distillery in their 50th floor apartment in Tower Palace. I taught ajjumas illegally in the Hyundai Dept. Store in Apgujeong. While I was on my E-2, I worked for a national university and illegally for the Chungnam Provincial Government. I had co-workers that tripled their salaries at the national university by tutoring the children of local government officials in their homes. After switching to an E-1, I worked illegally for LG in Osan, for Samyang Corp. at their corporate HQ in Jongno-5 ga, for Samsung SDI, for Korea Cyber University, Yonsei University doctored a visa for me once, and for two years illegally teaching teachers at Seoul National University of Education. I had friends who taught movie stars, singers and actors. I had friends who wrote textbooks, made recordings and appeared on TV shows. Along with 5 other guys, I appeared in an ad for LG Telecom. I was about to work for Hyundai at their training centre at Korea University’s Jochiwon campus when they told me that they were so busy lying to Kodae that they couldn’t pay me a third of what they had promised me. Almost none of this was done “legally.” All of it was for cash in little white envelopes, and I got most of these jobs from the dozens of English mercenaries I knew in Itaewon. Your understanding of what goes on in ESL in Korea is simplistic and stupid.