Foreign Policy has a piece on Hines Ward, Bonojit Hussain and President Obama’s visit to Korea, a nation that is apparently “grappling with its prejudices about race.”
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FP. not FT.
FT would not make such a sloppy un-researched mistake like this:
If it were FT, the Korean media would also unleash a firestorm about how the Financial times hates Korea.
Yeah, stuff like that…
Grappling is certainly an improvement over ignoring.
That’s a damn accurate “sloppy unresearched mistake” if you ask me. And if you don’t believe that, just try using banmal to an ajushi.
The fact that the article got into that level of detail is impressive. Very well executed.
er, excuse me, mr. stuck tape recorder, do you speak korean?
i use 반말 to my parents. i don’t consider them either an insolent brat or a disobedient dog.
FT is a great publication. the korean government is wrong in its attitude when it comes to dealing with the FT. That sentence sounds like the reporter asked one korean person who didn’t know how to speak English what the deal with 반말 was and has no idea of all the different levels of honorific endings in korean/japanese and just went for a soundbite.
#6,
You use panmal with parents? Wow, Korea has changed. When I was there (when tigers were quitting smoking pipes) you’d have been knocked into tomorrow for speaking so.
One question – do they consider you an insolent brat?
my mum used 반말 with her mum until her mum died two,three years ago at some age of 80+ so no.
as i said, it’s hard to have the knowledge of anything but a sliver of of the cake that is korean society if you don’t speak the language..i don’t mind the people not knowing, i mind people presuming to know.
What you use with your parents or friends is irrelevent little Ms. Can’t Be Wrong. That doesn’t change the fact that it is used to insolent brants and disobedient dogs, now does it? So your aspersions again fall flat..
Seriously, do you have a point – ever – or are you simply mindlessly habituated to red herring statements (Or, should I say hong-uh?) directed at anyone critical of your precious little narrow minded viewpoints? The Pali sutras refer to this affliction as clinging to views.
Buddhism is gay.
mizar, please, i just don’t like you. or your obvious lack of korean skills or the way you try to hide it – i told you before. so don’t talk to me or take up my points which are not addressed to you.
just scroll past my comments, please.
Card has done some excellent work over the years. And actually the banmal issue is addressed well in the FP comment thread.
You might want to direct some of that defensive angst toward that arrogant, defensive habit you have of presuming to know what others may and may not know. The author knows precisely what is relevent to know within the context of the article. But of course the last refuge of a scoundral is hong-uh hwe.
Mizar once again blows his Korean cover. Or has he stopped pretending completely?
That’s a real stretch, yuna. Your fallacy is apparent to even the most casual speaker of Korean. You have haplessly allowed yourself to shred your credibility to bits – sorry that the sock puppet metaphor irritates you. Perhaps you should make that your kong-an.
‘mizar, please, i just don’t like you. or your obvious lack of korean skills or the way you try to hide it – i told you before. so don’t talk to me or take up my points which are not addressed to you. just scroll past my comments, please.’
that is not possible; you are a KOREAN WOMAN, afterall.
proxy for causing all his mizary.
Wjk, are you really that desperate?
Tiny, you’re an irrelevent insult bot.
Tiny, you’re an irrelevent insult bot.
OK, my job here is done. Yuna has outted itself and the transparent haters have crawled out of their holes. The puppet has smoked them out.
My job here is done. Good night.
On neither the FP thread nor this one, nobody has asked or answered the only obvious 반말 question: would the police officer have spoken that way if he were addressing a Korean person?
No need to rush to answer, though. Even a bleeding heart like me is getting a little tired of all the recent “racism in Korea” hubbub.
I think we broke mizar
I second that sentiment, Granfaloon. It’s akin to repeating the first Nobel Truth ad nauseum and ignoring the other three.
if they thought he was a victim, that wouldn’t have happened unless he was below the age of 20 or so.
if he was a presumed criminal, most probably yes probably until the age of 40 or 50.
but what i am objecting to, is that in that article, it was not put in context.
the sentence explaining what 반말 is, is wrong. it’s a bit like saying, in france, calling someone by tu, tu t’appeller -ing is a register used when speaking to an insolent brat or a disobedient dog – that is just wrong.
i think they should not have used 반말 to bonojit hussein. i think korea is a racist country towards coloured people.
but it was definitely a moment of sloppy journalism.
Isn’t tiny a hoot? He’s the smallest kid in the gang craving validation.
Yuna:
I agree with your assessment. It’s kinda what I thought, but I wanted to hear it from someone with a better understanding of the language.
Next order of business: where does having 반말 spoken to oneself fall in that grand hierarchy of Awful Things That Happen To Foreigners In Korea? It’s certainly not something I’ve cried over, even when I suspect it’s contextually inappropriate.
Then why can’t you prove it, yuna? That’s simply a bald statement.
Regarding your faulty analysis of that single sentence that you have fixated on: the fallacy of employing an analogy to support your theory is that French and Korean culture are not entirely identical. An analogy is a weak defence.
Furthermore, the assertion that an entire article can be discredited based on a single alleged but unproven inaccuracy is just sad. Your “argument” (if it may be called such) is a standard example of cherrypicking a single element to discredit the whole.
As for your statement, reproduced above in blockquote, it is incorrect in that the sentence does not purport to explain but rather to describe the use of banmal, an exhaustive explanation banmal being irrelevent.
This is all fairly obvious stuff. You need to hone your critical skills.
‘The verbal assailant was at the police station also, and continued to hurl racist insults at him in front of the officers there, who did nothing to stop him.
(Maybe it’s something about buses that bring out the best and worst in people. In 1955, Alabama’s Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat for a white person on a segregated bus. She said she was “tired of giving in” and was arrested — but her actions became a turning point in the U.S. civil rights movement. It might be so for Korea, too.)’
it’s like i said, this is a plot by westerners to turn korea into a multicultural shithole like their countries have become. bongo is rosa parks? how insulting.
Don’t reply to that Mizar5 the idiot.
I use 반말 to idiots like cmm & Mizar5.
and it works both ways. when i tried to teach a non-korean friend of mine how to speak korean, he preferred to learn 반말 first, even though i wanted to teach him 존대말 from the beginning – he said that there were too many syllables in the 존대말, though i kept telling him you might not get taken seriously if you speak in that manner when speaking to strangers or non-friends.
anyway he went ahead, and when he spoke that way, some koreans themselves would speak back in 반말 to him, just because they understand that it’s easier for him – like speaking to a kid – slowly, and in simpler terms.
Yeah, Wjk, Westerners set up the entire incident. It’s all a conspiracy. You gave up on penis talk but you’re still up to your racist apologetics.
Which betrays your ssangnom status, Koreansentry. A dignified Korean doesn’t stoop to banmal so easily. Let me teach you a Korean expression. Rough translation: To a Buddha, you appear a Buddha. When you stoop to making it personal, your vitrol betrays a lack of emotional control.
The thing about people who don’t take a stand on issues is that they never get press time. And what’s worse, some f0lks accuse these people of buggering Mary just because they don’t conflate childhood issues with the world at large.
My faith in the world hinges on the likes of Mizar. Sadly, I am the world and Mizar is angry.
Well, you don’t deserve any 존대말, using 반말 to Mizar5 is perfect.
Please, I’m not Buddhist. I just hate idiots like you. GTFO of Korea.
McGenghis, your statement is at once cryptic and provocative.
Korean Sentry: I have like 5 형s. They are all cool guys. What is wrong with you?
mizar, what’s your definition of ssangnom?
Can’t really disagree here. That’s the basic idea.
Korea has to hold out for a few decades. After a couple decades or so, the Western and “international” propaganda campaigns promoting multiculturalism and Third World immigration into Korea will lose credibility as many Western countries and cities increasingly turn into dumps due to misguided multicult and immigration policies.
Which is why it’s possible that we might see multicult/immigration promotion intensified in the near term. The promoters (at least some of them) after all are likely to be aware on some level that their credibility will be damaged in a generation or so when the after effects of their disastrous policies will be quite clearly evident.
Mizar: you won’t find it here.
That’s incorrect. You can wield your intellect here, but you are not bringing anyone together. You can TRY to find it here. And man, I am SURE you will entertain. But it’s you. It’s YOU. We’re all tossing stones at the sky with tears in our eyes, and you are chastizing an Asian country? Surely, there is a source.
Sure, Pawi is pathethic. But we never looked to him. He is fodder for the reader, and Mizar is something we would lean against. But mostly, we’re returning to the forests. Mizar. I am you, and we are not happy.
It’s neither an accurate explanation nor an accurate description of banmal. So your point is moot.
It’s pretty obvious that the writer of that article isn’t familiar with Korean and didn’t properly research it. If you had basic Korean language skills, you would see that.
Who made this assertion? Where? Why make stuff up to make a point?
You also contradict yourself when you said:
And when pointed out to you that the description of banmal is incorrect/inaccurate/incomplete, you turn around and say:
So which is it? I think you’ve been left in the spin cycle for a bit too long. You must be dizzy.
Yep, it’s westerners who run the hundreds of agencies in Korea that
bribeimport poor Southeast Asianmaid/sperm bank/punching bagsbrides into the country.Westerners also secretly run the Korean government programs that offer subsidies to rural Korean men to help pay for their indentured servants from Vietnam.
Further still, whitey is responsible for the network of support organizations funded by the Korean government which offer language and culture classes to the imported wives, as well as lessons on how to absorb abuse from
in-lawsdrunken assholes on buses.Quite an accomplishmen there whitey…secretly pulling the strings while Koreans themselves appear to be completely responsible. Good thing only pawi and mkaplan figured out the “conspiracy,” or the gig might be up.
‘Sure, Pawi is pathethic. But we never looked to him. He is fodder for the reader, and Mizar is something we would lean against. But mostly, we’re returning to the forests. Mizar. I am you, and we are not happy.’
could someone please pass the barf bag?
1. Are there currently any “multicultural shitholes” in the West? Either whole countries, or segments of countries such as states, cities, etc.?
2. For those places in the West that are currently not “multicultural shitholes,” is it possible or likely that they will, at least according to present trends, become “multicultural shitholes” in the future?
3. Are these “multicultural shitholes” or potential “multicultural shitholes” the result of multiculturalist and immigration policies implemented by elite and the political class?
4. Are similar multiculturalist and immigration policies promoted to Korea by basically the same people?
I do think at times that America has become a “multicultural shithole”. The other day I called my bank and was prompted to press 1 to speak to a representative in English. In America.
I hope Korea never gets to that point. Does that make me a racist?
The funny thing is that when I pressed 1 to speak to a representative in English, I was put on hold for for a couple of minutes, only to be greeted by someone speaking in an accent I could barely understand. It was so bad I had to call back to get someone else on the line. Maybe I should learn some Spanish and make it easier on myself.
For those curious about Mizar5′s true identity, I have good news.
It’s going to be revealed online soon.
Mizar would never put his hand inside child-sized socks.
koreans have got to get over their pure-blood infatuations like voldemort and slytherin. slytherin sucks, they never once won the quidditch cup
The whole world is a giant multicultural shithole if you really think about it.
I have a very hard time picturing iheartblueballs as a concerned crusader spokesperson on behalf of Southeast Asian spouses of Korean men. Why do I think he doesn’t give a shit about it except to use it as a convenient foil in defending White boy honor in turf wars with the likes of Pawi?
It’s OK though when Whitey napalms peasant villages and turns entire Asian countries into giant whorehouses and calls em Little Brown Fucking Machines. But when the Big Bad Ajossi is having marriage problems with his Southeast Asian maid/cumdumpster/punching bag of a wife, suddenly White boy turns into a shrill, little feminista.
You do the math.
He’s into the SE Asian ladyboys, not the women.
Sure NK. You also can’t picture a Korean woman married to a white dude, nor can you picture a white couple adopting a Korean. So given the track record that your retarded myopia provides, why should anyone give a flying fuck what you can picture?
“Blurring line between hate, free speech”
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/11/20/200911200006.asp
‘You also can’t picture a Korean woman married to a white dude..’
well, i can. i just hope that white dude isn’t you.
Speaking of napalm, NK, do ya suppose the SK troops in Vietnam spent their time there handing out dollies to the kids?
Pawi, you’re a Kyopoid, ain’t ya? If you think the US is such a multicultural shithole, why not just deport yourself?
Blueballs, I am perfectly aware that Korean (and Asian women in general) are always constantly running some kind of an Affirmative Action Program of Pussy for White guys everywhere. Of course, I can picture this. How can I not? You guys are everywhere, like a cliché that refuses to go out of style.
I’m curious about something. I’ve been with native Korean women. I find that I have very little in common with them. I don’t know how you White dudes manage it. Don’t you find the language and culture gap bothersome? Doesn’t bother you that you can’t tell a joke or use some kind of a pop culture reference without having to explain it? I’m talking about the little, detail things that comprises what they call “chemistry”. Is the Charisma Male effect so strong that it can span for years? Or is Korean-male bashing the common glue that holds the relationship together? I’m curious about what makes a native Korean woman – white guy relationship tick. I ask as a curious student of Expat ways.
Speaking of banmal…
http://news.khan.co.kr/kh_news/cp_art_view.html?med_id=cp&artid=20091119103542A&code=940100
Speaking of napalm, NK, do ya suppose the SK troops in Vietnam spent their time there handing out dollies to the kids?
It is unfortunate that the Park Chung Hee administration felt obligated as a vassel-client state, in the name of the alliance, to get the ROK military embroiled in the misadventures of an Empire against a country that Korea essentially had no beef with, in order to raise hard currency. But I suppose at the time, with the Red Scare and all, it made some kind of sense.
yes rjk, but there was man who also sushi-knifed someone who looked at someone the wrong way. 반말:
엄마: 밥먹어라!
나: 곧 갈께!
엄마: 맛있어?
나: 응
this is very common.
I happened to agree with you, yuna. Just saw the headline on Naver.com and thought it was funny, especially given the thread.
Both parents? Among the families I knew in Korea and China, the kids spoke 반말 to their moms but not their dads.
I suggest the supposed pure bloods go make an appointment with 23 and Me and figure out just how similar (or dissimilar) they really are from the rest of us. Koreans are a mix of Mongolian, Japanese and Chinese, just like Japanese are a mix of Mongolian, Chinese and Korean. People have been wandering around NE Asia for thousands of years, long before Korea as such existed. You don’t know who was making babies with who in your family history past a few generations. I can’t reliably tell Chinese from Korean faces, just like you can’t. My advice to the supposedly “blue blooded Koreans” is to develop a cortex that can wrestle down the biased, hyper-emotional reptilian complex.
Multi-cultural shit hole? Is a mono-cultural shit hole any better? I’d like someone to point out where the “non” shit hole is so I can move there next.
Netizen Kim, I find you intelligent and insightful. However you seem like a sad dude when it comes to the ladies and it’s breaking my heart. You deserve better. Give the girls and yourself some slack. There’s no perfect woman and no perfect man. Any one who marries is settling.
There is no conspiracy of Korean man bashing. My native Korean girlfriend prefers when we hangout with my Korean friends as opposed with my white American friends because the white people are big, loud and talk fast in a foreign language. She doesn’t hate Korean men and neither do I.
there are certain exceptions i wouldn’t say 반말 where the verb/noun themselves change: or do it interchangeably.
e.g. 진지/식사 “드세요.”
안녕히 주무세요.
but otherwise i would speak in 반말 to both.
아빠한테도 응. 엄마한테도 응.
띠리링… “아빠 어디? 오늘 언제 와, 아빠? 저녁 드시고 오는거야? 그럼 우리 먼저 먹을까?”
my brother started to speak in more 존대말 to my dad from when he reached a certain age.
between the girls and mums it’s more familiar so you’re right sonagi in that sense..
netkim. you are obviously still not experienced in the world of WOman..
the best women are the silent sort.
here is a quote from that link i linked to the anti-ESL cafe a few days ago
here
i can fully understand this sentiment of the poor expat.
have you not seen the musical film south pacific?
the song “happy talk” is only happy until the girl acquires “a valley accent(whatever that means)” and starts telling you:
“you ain’t worth nothing, why did i marry you, you white piece of trash? your friends are all terrible and you don’t earn any money, wasting all your time writing on stupid korean blogs – who the fuck cares? i must have been blind thinking you looked like tom cruise, you look like danny devito now that i can see.. my father was the head of blah blah company and i could have married my old boyfriend who now has 3 apartments in kangnam blah blah blah…”
McG, the truth is not angry, nor does it “bring people together.” It is dispassionate and its only function is to reveal. And if people choose to be flushed out over mere words on a screen, what does that reveal about them. As thekorean wrote, yuna has itself to blame for allowing itself to blame for reacting so predictably. It and the other “koreans” here.
Regarding banmal – which I have shown to be a red herring argument, why does the thing called yuna invoke French to defend its position? Why not Spanish? Snob appeal anyone? Why not English? Why not make the rationalization that because black Americans use the N word among themselves as a term of endearment, it is therefore not offensive for white people to use it toward black people? Anything to avoid the obviously correct point of the article – that the use of banmal by the police was offensive, condescending and likely racist? No, it is easier to argue minutia. Argumentum verbosium fallacy.
To summarize, the thing called yuna has been made by Mizar to demonstrate the very point that the author was making in the article – the Korean condescention toward foreigners. The author could not possibly know anything about Korea because he is after all a foreigner and therefore incapable of understanding Korea. Korea-centric condescention toward foreigners.
Just like to point out a few things:
I use banmal to my parents, always have, and always will. Most Koreans do the same. Only in special circumstances and on TV do children use jondaemal to their parents. Or sometimes children who used to use banmal to their parents, change to use jondaemal as they grow up and their parents get older.
I use banmal to my wife, she uses banmal to me. I use banmal to my friends, vice versa. I use banmal to my brother, he does the same to me.
I use my banmal to my daughter, and she the same to me. It doesn’t mean they are all “insolent brats” or “disobedient dogs”.
But I do get what the article is trying to say. Banmal can also be used in negative ways by those who are trying to put people down – to insult them.
And second, the “Pure Blood” theory is no longer taught in South Korean schools. It was taken out of text books, replaced by Korea’s multicultral origin. The “pure blood” phrase often uttered expat blogs and web sites, are quickly getting old as is the “there are no gays in Korea” phrase (a past Korean myth that is no longer believed) which are often used by Western expats to ridicule and stereotype Koreans as one dimensional ignorant rednecks.
I particularly like the recent example here where the overseas ethnic korean korean proclaims to tell the Samsung researcher he’s not qualified to talk about Samsung’s attitude to research, but this guy mysteriously is more qualified merely because he has some korean blood.
Wow. Two hours ago this thread had 6 comments on it, now there are 66. There must be no racism in Korea.
Another thing I want to point out.
Would we even have this kind of discussion if the Korean media didn’t bring out stories of racism and multicultralism in Korea constantly everyday?
Case in point, the story of the Indian professor who got harassed on a bus.. if the Korean media didn’t write about it, would we have this broo ha ha?
Is that such a bad thing? Just because there are more stories like this appearing in the media, does that mean racism in Korea is getting worse?
Or does it appear like it’s getting worse? Should we all huff and puff about how bad racism is getting worse in Korea, or should we recognize the pattern which should be obvious by now.. that Koreans are finally talking about racism and being aware that there is a problem that need to addressed.
No you haven’t.
From the original FP piece:
The writer — who, as far as I can see from the piece, didn’t see fit to ask the police officer in question if he used banmal and, if so, why — suggests that the officer viewed the individual in question as an insolent brat or disobedient dog. The fact is, the writer doesn’t know that. Personally, I think as a matter of policy, police should be using formal language, but there are a number of reasons he might have used it, including perhaps that he thought the non-Korean-speaking foreigner in question might find it easier to understand (similar to the way some English speakers, when having to communicate with foreigners of limited English ability, SPEAK LOUDER).
“Case in point, the story of the Indian professor who got harassed on a bus.. if the Korean media didn’t write about it, would we have this broo ha ha?”
Indeed. What makes this otherwise garden-variety case interesting at all is that it WAS taken up by the media and legal system.
“perhaps that he thought the non-Korean-speaking foreigner in question might find it easier to understand ”
Because police in Korea love helping foreigners.
Blessed be the truthful:
and
See, that didn’t hurt. Naturally, we use banmal in a familial way with friends, younger people, etc. But the use of the honorific form with most people in public is fairly standard these days, just like polite formal language in English.
The writer has clearly missed the point. This incident wouldn’t have happened had foreigners, particularly smelly ban mal understanding ones, been banned from riding buses.
Anyway, let’s celebrate Korea celebrating Hines Ward celebrating bi-racial Koreans who, due to his Superbowl MVP, can now join the Korean army.
Atta boy team multi-cultural Korea!
BTW, ban mal users, how would you feel if someone, such as a friend or even a spouse, were to use ban mal w/ your momma or poppa?
Mulicultural shitholes in America? You’re talking about Koreatown in LA right?
Acropolis7,
Have you ever been to LA Koreatown?
i really have to wonder if the president had visited australia, would the american press be running stories on how racist australin society is? it’s funny to see australiens lecture koreans about race.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/TV/10/09/jackson.australia/
I cannot wrap my head around the “I use banmal with my family” line of thought on this thread. Are you honestly saying that the police officer used banmal out of familial affection for Hussein? Holy waking fuck.
To be fair, yes, I think the explanatory line about banmal in the FP piece glossed over a lot, and was inaccurate. So maybe James Card owes everyone an apology for such a crude and simple treatment of all the wonderful nuances of the beautiful 한국말. But stop being so elitist. That piece was written for people who’ve heard maybe three words of Korean in their life. Sure, we “experts” could poke holes in a lot of these “Korea for the layman” articles. All Card was trying to do was convey that the officer was rude to Hussein. Yes, he could have done it better. Or more accurately, many of YOU could have done it better. Happy now?
nk said:
“It is unfortunate that the Park Chung Hee administration felt obligated as a vassel-client state, in the name of the alliance, to get the ROK military embroiled in the misadventures of an Empire against a country that Korea essentially had no beef with, in order to raise hard currency. But I suppose at the time, with the Red Scare and all, it made some kind of sense.”
It was FAR from unfortunate. It was a good gesture from a country that had just been saved from “commie aggression” to do something to repay it’s debt. Not only did it do this, but Korea not only got paid handsomely for fighting, the US Army Corp of Engineers also helped build the Korea Institute of Science and Technology, which was responsible for Korea going from “pissing in pots” to where they are today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Institute_of_Science_and_Technology
Can you imagine the “Miracle on the Han” without Korea’s science and engineering might, which was gained by their participation in Vietnam? Calling Korea’s involvement in the Vietnam war “unfortunate” is “unsmart.” The only unfortunate thing here is that this is likely not the last time that you will chime in about shit of which you are ignorant here. It’s your MO.
next up:
“I’m curious about something. I’ve been with native Korean women. I find that I have very little in common with them. I don’t know how you White dudes manage it. Don’t you find the language and culture gap bothersome? Doesn’t bother you that you can’t tell a joke or use some kind of a pop culture reference without having to explain it? I’m talking about the little, detail things that comprises what they call “chemistry”. Is the Charisma Male effect so strong that it can span for years? Or is Korean-male bashing the common glue that holds the relationship together? I’m curious about what makes a native Korean woman – white guy relationship tick. I ask as a curious student of Expat ways.”
If you were at all genuinely interested, and not just shitty, I’d be happy to answer your questions honestly. But you aren’t, so here are your answers.
The native Korean girl is forever attracted by the way we 코쟁이’s can eat kimchi and wow’d when we send text messages in Korean. It’s an eternal fountain of attraction. (Well, that and our “movie star looks,” right gooseshit?)
We whitey’s, meanwhile, are eternally drawn to her mysterious eyes, find it cute when she tries her hardest to speak English, and consider her to be more feminine than white women.
There’s nothing more to the attraction than this. Inter-racial marriages are built and sustained on these things, obviously.
I’d be oh so attracted to an intellectually exotic woman who could say things like this:
“Saemangeum should be developed into the Mecca of low-carbon, green industry by maximizing its international competitiveness through ecotourism.”
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/11/20/200911200041.asp
The reclamation work in Saemangeum began in 1991 with state expenditure exceeding 2.4 trillion won to date. Separated from the sea by a 33-kilometer dike, the reclaimed land covers 401 square kilometers or about two thirds the size of Seoul.
Well, to be more precise, all he was trying to do was cite the use of a linguistic phenomenon he doesn’t seem to understand fully to infer that the police officer viewed Hussein with contempt. And that’s problematic. Like I said, as a matter of policy, public servants should use formal speech. But it’s a big jump from “the police officer inappropriately used banmal” to “the police officer viewed Hussein as an insolent brat or a disobedient dog.”
first and foremost, i am not arguing against the point the article is trying to make – i agree with it – apart from to point it out a flaw – that’s what prompted me to make the very first statement, that it would not have come from something like FT, the Financial Times, which is the heading that robert had up there – “The FT version”
no point missed for the rest of the article – i will repeat for the upteenth time koreans behaved in a racist way in this incident and korea is a racist country.
the first thing about a serious piece of publication is not to make up, to flourish and elaborate.. this sentence was that.
if the writer is going to take the time and describe a part of the incident which is central to the piece, i.e. the police of a country addressed the purported victim of the racist attack in the register of addressing an insolent brat or a disobedient dog, that is not such a small mistake that he made. who knows? maybe he did! maybe they used 욕 on top of 반말.. but when he described 반말 that sentence is wrong. this is exactly the sort of thing which the korean press would get accused of. sensationalist soundbites which are wrong. isn’t it the measure of the quality of a news report to give the facts *as is* and let the people make up their own minds?
i could have given the example in japanese which has more of a 1-to-1 mapping. don’t call someone snobby just because you feel inadequate
grandfalloon, i am not arguing that the police spoke to the victim out of familiar feelings. the writer doesn’t owe anyone an apology. he just needs to do his homework better for next time. one correct sentence would have been enough.
ROK military involvement in Vietnam wasn’t that extensive. And Hyundai got a bunch of construction and logistics contracts from the US military during it.
All I’m gonna say is 5,000 dead ROK boys from that war…
Put whatever dollar sign you will on that…
Ask Park Chung Hee and the chaebol oligarchs about that one.
All I’m gonna say is 36,940 dead American boys from the war before that one.
Yuna bomber: You’re right, the FT wouldn’t make such a flaw. They’d make a bigger one.
BTW, where did you come about your knowledge of the FT’s inner-most and error-free workings? Work there? Live in the country where it’s published?
[emphases added]
In other words, The ROK felt obligated to pursue its own self-interest as best it could in the circumstances. In other words, it just pursued its own best interests. There shouldn’t be any mistake about this, especially as it is frankly disclosed in the memoirs of the ROK foreign minister at the time. There was NO sense of obligation to the US in any normal understanding of the word. The only remarkable thing about the repeated Korean recourse to the use of the word is the way it is twisted into an formula of (self)deception regarding its actual action-determining motives and an excuse for not taking responsibility for its own actions.
yeah, and america did what it did in the korean war for the sake of koreans., right? that’s why koreans need to show apreciation, right?
tsk, tsk, tsk…..
as usual, your point is either non-evident or completely lacking, gooseboy.
I would assume that what acropolis7 was getting at, was how ridiculously hypocritical it is for an immigrant (under the assumption that pawi and/or his family are immigrants living in America) to complain about the US being a multicultural shithole, when that immigrant’s own presence here is a contribution to not only the multiculturalism, but depending on your opinion of Korean enclaves, to the shithole end of the equation.
Of course he could be one of those immigrants that steps foot on our shores, and then immediately turns and starts yelling at other immigrants to go the fuck home.
yes. i used to be based in london, probably will live there again in the near future for some time at least.
no i’ve never worked at the FT (that would be a bias), though i knew some people who worked there, the FT and the Economist are the two publications that i would pay to get at the bookshop/airport. they have good articles, especially in their general section, and i like the colour salmon pink.
yuna, really, WHY all the outrage (just count the posts and depth above) just because he didn’t have a deep understanding of Korean culture?
Perhaps he asked a Korean colleague about panmal, and got a quick but not complete answer, and that was that. It’s not a central part of the story, as it wouldn’t change the story had he gotten it right or excluded that part.
Why so harsh on him? I know that foreigners are prohibited from judging or speaking ill about Korea, but why not cut the guy some slack. He’s not the one drawing negative attention to Korea in this incident.
“one correct sentence would have been enough.”
i was born and raised in america. my parents put america before korea. that’s why my primary language is english. try again.
btw, you’re not saying that because i’m ethnic, i don’t have a right to say something about my own country, are you?
east la vs koreatown at 2am. which place would you prefer to be in? in koreatown or that crime infested shithole?
cmm. i just don’t like bad arguments pretending to be good ones by one person or a person who cannot speak korean pretending to speak it.
if that person had not answered my point #1 by a typical argument of # 5 “damn accurate” then i would not have gone on.
i am not arguing against the writer’s lack of understanding for korean culture.
you say this ” Perhaps he asked a Korean colleague about panmal, and got a quick but not complete answer, and that was that.”
i’d already said “That sentence sounds like the reporter asked one korean person who didn’t know how to speak English what the deal with 반말 was and has no idea of all the different levels of honorific endings in korean/japanese and just went for a soundbite.”
Multiculturalism is not simply immigration. Though immigration is a necessary condition for it, of course, at least if the state in question is not largely homogeneous in the first place.
It’s not “ridiculously hypocritical” for an immigrant to complain that the place he or she immigrated to is or is becoming a “multicultural shithole.” Does being immigrant entail that the immigrant must support endless immigration into the country in question forever?
“america did what it did in the korean war for the sake of koreans., right? that’s why koreans need to show apreciation, right?
Actually, yes.
You’d have to be pretty stupid, naive, and delusional to believe that we fought the Korean War for the sake of Koreans.
“36,940 dead American boys from the [Korean] war.”
There were also a large number listed “missing in action” — as many as 9,000 or 10,000 iirc. So the number of U.S. dead was around 45,000.
“You’d have to be pretty stupid, naive, and delusional to believe that we fought the Korean War for the sake of Koreans.”
The opposite is true. You’d have to be a moron to think that helping the Koreans was not a reason why the U.S. resisted the 06/25/50 invasion.
Perhaps because it’s not just the culture he doesn’t correctly understand. Card has accused the police of racism. I quote:
From what I understand, this is what Hussain (or his friend, Ms. Han) claims. Of course, just because Hussain and/or Han claim this or that happened doesn’t necessarily make it true. Did Card bother talking to the police? Can’t tell from FP, but the Hani 21 did back when this story first broke:
http://h21.hani.co.kr/arti/society/society_general/25561.html
Again, believe whichever side you will, but if this had been a story about misbehaving English teachers and the writer didn’t include quotes from, uh, English teachers, we’d be crying about the racist press.
Card also accuses the police of doing nothing about the case.:
Again, is that true? From what I can tell, the cops booked all three for insulting one another — not unusual, since both sides pressed charges against one another — and turned the case over to prosecutors. I doubt the cops took the case too seriously — after all, it’s a case about a drunk guy insulting someone on a bus, so they may have regarded the case as petty and stupid — but again, it’s a big jump to “police not doing anything because of racism,” which definitely seems to be the inference here. Again, if Card did talk to the police, and their quotes were cut by the editor, I apologize. Otherwise, it’s lazy journalism about a sensitive topic and quite possibly slander against the Bucheon Police Department.
As usual, gooseboy is wrestling with the soiled straw of the cage in which he has placed himself.
I didn’t imply, let alone say, that US involvement in Korea wasn’t motivated by US perception of its own interests.
On the other hand, the US decision to intervene in Korea was far more complicated than the Korean decision to send troops to VN, and among the complications was the US perception that its interests include the promotion of “democratic” governments in other nations.
Again, bullshit. Whether the author has an in-depth understanding of Korean honorifics just doesn’t matter. Several have supported the fact that it was damn accurate with solid, supported arguments, in contrast to your familiar habit of retreating into bald assertion and hiding behind your supposed Korean genes and vagina. And in the final analysis, what are you even arguing about here? A minor point that by your admission does not negate the point of the article.
While my Korean was proficient enough to use exclusively while doing business at an executive level at a blue chip Korean company, the simple fact is that ban mal and chon dae mal are concepts that foreign residents learn during their first months in country. After a year, they should have mastered it.
The standard “foreigners don’t understand” nonsense just doesn’t work here. How about showing some respect for the intelligence of others? Haughty condescension toward the wae gook ssang nom does not exempt you from the onus of proving a hasty claim.
That’s the real point.
robert, aren’t you going to provide a translation for mizar?
Nice contribution Robert.
‘behind your supposed Korean genes and vagina. ‘
nice. i think mizar needs to go away for a year or two.
Why don’t you, pawi? Put your money where your mouth is you little imp!
Re: Pawi, you’re a Kyopoid, ain’t ya? If you think the US is such a multicultural shithole, why not just deport yourself?
Actually it sounds like he just wants to deport the Mexicans Americans, some of who’s ancestors were in LA before the Mexican American War went to the Gringos.
Pawi should come back to Korea and smell the feces wafting up out of the storm drains and creeks. A phenomenon we enjoy here because Koreans are too smart to follow the Korean building codes for sanitary waste drains. But hey, it’s still mostly pure Korean feces so it’s the good kind.
Seems as if the argument that Koreans should be eternally grateful to the USA for the Korean war has been a long standing one with a lot of heated exchanges from lots of sides.
Considering how many deaths America had in wars in Cuba, Philippines and yes, Vietnam… American could have done worse in Korea. Lord knows how long the Iraqs will have to hear about how they must be “eternally grateful” to the U.S. for generations and generations.
The U.S. didn’t fight in Korea to “liberate” the Koreans. The U.S. sent troops to Korea to protect Japan from Communist encroachment and cover-up the massive embarrassment the Truman administration felt for the Nationalists losing China to the Reds. Anything else is transferring present day wishful thinking to past motivations. There is clearly a disconnect if you do so.
That being said, I’m thankful that some of your grandfathers came to fight and die in Korea and the freedom of my fathers and grandfathers being the byproduct of such intervention. They are loved and honored by Koreans of that generation. Since America’s involvement has been rather absentee besides military and geopolitical matters since 1953, successive generations of Koreans after 1953 has had less positive or at least less obligatory views of America since then. This is not completely difficult to understand since 1953 to 1989 America cared little for Korea but as a pawn eternally locked in combat with another pawn in the grand scheme of things.
Vince, yours is the quote of the thread.
I have a young Korean friend who was a real darling in Korea. After moving to North America he seeths with hatred over minorities, especially Indians. He was poorly prepared for a multicultural society.
Robert, though I don’t think that’s what motivated yuna’s objections, it’s an interesting addition. (I was a bit out of my league trying to comprehend the large block of text from the Hani, however.)
Yuna, here is a better question. Why are you arguing with Mizar? And where do you think that is going to lead?
Excellent point.
I had no idea that kimchi procurement manager and Kimbap Cheongook were considered “executive level” and “a blue chip Korean company,” respectively.
Well, apparently we all are.
On behalf of my father and my maternal uncles, you’re welcome – and thanks for noticing, even if only to undercut your expressions of gratitude for the personal sacrifices made by them and many other Americans with your impertinent and boorish (and inaccurate, because incomplete) observations about the reasons for America’s collective contributions to Korea.
Except insofar as the individuals are concerned, the issue, though, on the level of relations between countries, is NOT one about Korea or Koreans being eternally grateful to the USA. It’s really just – a big “just” – about being honest about the facts of the US contributions to the creation and development of Korea as a viable modern state and society – including the fact of the US’s having left Koreans so much room to develop Korea as they saw fit, despite essentially bankrolling the entire enterprise – or as you choose to see it, being an “absentee” patron.
It’s a mistake to characterize it as having been a completely charitable exercise, rather than as what it really was – a capital investment in a strategic outpost of an informal empire.
You can say whatever the shite you want about your own country. You simply have no credibility in doing so.
See above.
I’m a white American. I’ll say anything I want about any country.
Who challenged your right to do so?
I agree that WangKon,like many other Koreans, seems to think that US involvement with Korea SHOULD have been a completely disinterested act of charity, but I certainly never suggested that it was – indeed quite the opposit (see #100 above); so I don;t know what you’re on about, except, again like WK and others, some tape playing in your own head that only you can hear.
I wasn’t really referring to your comment in particular IHBB, but the commulative comments on the subject from many expats over the years.
Well you don’t suggest it in #100, but then you say, “including the fact of the US’s having left Koreans so much room to develop Korea as they saw fit, despite essentially bankrolling the entire enterprise.” This kind of suggests that despite making the entire capital investment, as it were, the US “left Koreans so much room” i.e. didn’t get land and thus any real return on their capital investment. When the reality is that there has been return. Though of course to whom and in what manner this return has flowed is a different matter.
Anyway, perhaps you’re just confused about what you actually believe – you are quite old after all.
Also, I don’t think that the U.S. involvement in the Korean war should be a completely disinterested act of charity…. It’s actually very interesting how American got involved in Korea, but that’s another story for another time… but then America has intervened in other countries for much less clear or charitable reasons… like in Iraq.
What comment are you referring to, and what subject?
Sperwer, these people from the post “Obama loving conservatives” are grateful to your maternal uncles and father. it’s just that Korea, being a democratic country, partly thanks to the US, can express many different opinions and voices now, just like the U.S. does. Why do you need the gratitude from Wangkon as well?
I don’t, as I’ve indicated. Why are you and so many other Koreans convinced that some huge burden of gratitude is being imposed on you?
It suggests nothing of the kind, except to ill-mannered little pups like you looking for strawmen with whom the tussle.
‘Why are you and so many other Koreans convinced that some huge burden of gratitude is being imposed on you?’
uh, cuz you always bring it up?
By all means, let’s avoid any discussion of the facts, and revert instead to innuendo about unrelated topics, so people can continue to wallow in the pools of their ill-informed emoturbation.
ok, my mistake with regards to what you have said on this thread. it’s the collective voices in our heads reading this blog. maybe it was weiku boy @#95.
i apologize.
Hey Pawi, is the noise in your head so louad that you can’t hear anything else, let alone think?
I didn’t and have repeatedly disclaimed any interest in it.
Or do you just subscribe the Big Lie theory of argumentation?
Frankly, even when Card is writing about fishing or travel, the journalism is slipshod at best. This particular topic, as Robert mentioned, deserved better… more professionalism.
Now I see where Mr Kaplan is getting his anti-diversity, anti-globalization fodder. Thanks for posting the link as it’s quite an interesting argument even if your understanding of it is shallow.
Ethnic and cultural diversity are just the tip of the iceberg. Diversity regarding sexual orientation, appropriate gender roles, even diversity of opinions themselves are equally important parts of the equation. Diversity isn’t just a race issue. This non-race diversity exploded into western societies in Europe and the Americas in the 60s, just as racial integration occurred.
Putnam shows how changes in work, family structure, age, suburban life, television, computers, women’s roles and other factors contributed to the fact that Americans sign fewer petitions, belong to fewer organizations that meet, know their neighbors less, meet with friends less frequently, and socialize with their families less often.
I’m not going to challenge the fact that there will be conflict when there’s change. And yes, demographics are changing in the US and across the globe. But we don’t avoid change just to avoid conflict. If all South Koreans (in Korea) were to wake up one morning and collectively decide they were one homogeneous society and then kick out non-citizens and eschew contact with foreigners, ROK would end up like the DPRK… impoverished, no ability to dissent, under-educated and very sad.
I’m no political scientist or sociologist. However, I suspect there are other very powerful forces at play in the US that contribute to the symptoms of concern in Putnam’s work that haven’t been mentioned. For examples: an economy and society built around automobiles where people are isolated in steel and plastic cocoons, an out of control business culture where corporations are given “human” and “individual rights” along with the ability to dole out obscenely disproportionate pay to self serving executives… in short, a cowboy/corporate gangster society that lauds the individual who can get whatever they can get away with at the expense of the community.
Korea does a much better job at these final examples I brought up and is one of the reasons I choose to live here.
Ok, Korea doesn’t have any cowboys — although I’ve seen people making beleive they were in Jeju-Do – but this strikes me as an equally valid characterization of Korea – with the slight amendment that the really obscene amounts of dosh get doled out to the tiny number of the members of the families that control the Korean chaebol
I see.
So multiculturalism and “diversity” are wonderful things.
And you deliberately chose to live in one of the most homogeneous places on Earth. Because there are fewer automobiles (?), or something. And because instead of cowboys and gangsters running corporations, you have a few incestuous oligarchic families running things.
So is it just cognitive dissonance you’re suffering from, or have you fully assimilated the Confucian’s cavalier attitude towards the principle of non-contradiction while living there?
Yes, I chose to live in Korea in part because I can go just about anywhere without the need of a car. I also chose to leave my very familiar multi-cultural society in California to live in mono-cultural Korea because I wanted to learn first hand what it’s like to be a foreigner and see if I could learn new things about the world. I’m very happy I did.
I challenge you to do side by side comparisons of corporate compensations to line worker wages for US companies like HP and Citigroup versus Korean companies like LG and Shinhan and let me know what you find.
I’m not sure why you brought this up. I don’t care about this.
That’s right, it’s all about you mkaplan. You and yuna should hook up and populate the world with angry uglies.
With the tired old arguments about the Korean War, pawi’s imaginary burden of gratitude, mkaplan’s lone stand against established fact, yuna’s petulance, kyopo racism, and tiny’s fledgling attempts at reason, this thread has been reminiscent of the Hollywood machine, churning out remakes of irrelevent old sitcoms that people will mindlessly frequent like zombies returning to the mall.
In other words, it’s been a rousing success.
The only thing that’s been established is that you’re a giant bullshitter.
You were never “doing business at an executive level” for a “blue chip Korean company.”
And no, being kimchi procurement manager at Kimbap Cheongook doesn’t count. Neither does overseeing a bunch of teenage Korean girls knitting socks in a sweatshop during the ’80s.
“Korea has to hold out for a few decades. After a couple decades or so, the Western and “international” propaganda campaigns promoting multiculturalism and Third World immigration into Korea will lose credibility as many Western countries and cities increasingly turn into dumps due to misguided multicult and immigration policies.”
This mindset might actually mean more than jack shit if a group of 40 million could actually influence a group of 6+ billion.
mkaplan, there are those here who know me personally, as Robert knows, and you are not one of them. Thank you for again demonstrating my points.
Nobody answered for the meaning of ssangnom. It’s mine.
In the old days, when there is an inborn social status system, noble people are called 양반, and low people are called 상민(常民). 민(民) means common people or any kind of subjects, and it’s often replaced by 놈, a disparaging word. So, here is a word 상놈. and to strengthen the disparaging meaning, 상 is changed into 쌍, the rough sound of 상.
I watched many animal-mating videos., and in the videos all the female animals showed no interest in mating.
Here is an example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqQiwmwXZOA
So, it’s needed to make a mating occur. We call it 상붙이다, 상붙이기. here 상 may be 相 meaning mutual, each other.
And you know, animals do these 상스러운 acts not caring human’s eyes, as you see in this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txSeklNmvks
. And sang-mins do these acts in public, too. This acts are said as 상붙다, for sang-mins do it not possessively but actively.
How do u feel to this horse-mating video? Aren’t u feel demeaning? When mating occurs publicly, it’s vulgar, demeaning. Korean word is 상스럽다. Here 상 is 常, the same letter of 상민.
Here is a 상스러운 picture,http://blog.koreadaily.com/_data/user/a/j/1/aj1018/image/2009/7/21100139_12.jpg ( http://kr.blog.yahoo.com/narah_kim/67677.html?p=1&t=3 ). Women from the 상민 class are so vulgar(상스럽다) in this pic. And 상민 seem to do 상붙기 in any places, exposing their penises as their instinct like animals. That is, they are mother-fuckers.
To sum it up, 쌍놈 is the rough word of 상민 and also has the meaning the people who make mating(상붙기) anywhere and anytime.
Yes, and then there are those here who know you as the giant bullshitter that you are.
Personal insult -bring it on. Bullshitter, asshole…waste all the bandwith you like on fallacy while others continue to write circles around you with serious, well conceived, well argued positions. If mere words on a screen can make some people blow up in technicolor, and they have no shame in revealing that weakness, then bring it on.
As I wrote in the Naver thread, Robert made a cogent argument above. Must reading for intellectually honest folk.
Oh and #140 was damn good too. Somehow she manages to be objective and informational without talking down to the waegook ssangnom. Excellent.
interesting stuff.
btw, mizar5 is a f_cking cretin who should consume cyanide.
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