ATEK apparently wants Naver to “pull the plug on the Anti English Spectrum“:
The Association for Teachers of English in Korea (ATEK) is pledging support to recent calls for NHN, the parent company of Naver.com, to take action against the online community of the Anti English Spectrum (AES), a race hate group that advocates vigilante tactics against foreign teachers that operates on Naver.com.
[...]
“This group’s highly defamatory statements violate Article Ga-4 (Defamatory Posts) of Naver cafe’s terms of service agreement and rise to the level of violations of the Korean criminal code.”Vandom also pointed out that Article 4 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), which the Republic of Korea fully supports, states that the promotion of racial hatred, such as in posters used by the Anti English Spectrum on their Naver page, is illegal. By hosting these posters Naver is in effect assisting racist activities, which under Article 4(a) of the ICERD, is an offense that Korea has declared “punishable by law”.
[...]
With regards to the letter’s Vandom mailed to NHN, ATEK president Greg Dolezal stated,“The Anti English Spectrum is attempting to sabotage multiculturalism in Korea with their xenophobic accusations that are aimed at foreign English teachers who are innocent of the crimes the group describes.”
Despite the implausibility of the group’s claims Dolezal stressed,
“ATEK cannot accept such harmful material relating to foreign teachers being spread in the public domain, especially when it could skew perceptions of foreign teachers and harm our members. Therefore we whole heartedly support these letters and urge the NHN Corporation to honor Naver’s content policies and remove the offensive material from the group’s page”
Personally, I think Anti-English Spectrum are a bunch of wankers, and their stalking activities, if illegal, should be dealt with, but pressuring Naver to shut them down? I’m not sure if I like where this is going…
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‘By hosting these posters Naver is in effect assisting racist activities.’
yeah, so what if it is? so is fox news. that’s the price of freedom.
this atek is more interested in promoting the rights of those accused of molesting little boys and girls than they are in the rights of children.
i find them siniter and question their real motives. they want to turn korea into a country a smal and craftyl minority can dictate to the masses.
don’t give in, korea. that child molester in thailand got into your home because you weren’t checking up on those who teach your children. you have every right to investigate anyone you choose just like 9-11 america. this is not about their rights but about your right to screen those who could pose a danger to your most vulnerable.
don’t let this mafia initiate a crime spree against the yemaek.
Pawi, don’t worry.
There are no Jews in ATEK – at least not yet.
And just what the FUCK is that supposed to mean?!
Any time, and I mean ANY TIME, you want to meet in a dark alley to talk about your antisemitism, just let me you, you fuck!
DLB
Ridiculous. Nothing really needs to be said about it. Jesus.
Then again if somebody wanted to shut down Dave’s, I’d be all for that. It makes English teachers look a lot worse than AES ever could.
Frankly, even if Naver doesn’t pull the plug on AES, I’m glad to see that ATEK is providing a contrasting voice to AES’s agenda. Belittle them if you want, but a track-record of initiating supporting and spreading information about actions against scapegoating and defamation against English teachers is the kind of thing ATEK needs for its credibility. I like the way it’s been going since its new leadership was elected and appointed.
I can hardly wait to see Kang Shin-who’s spin on this.
I’m all for an organization that supports better treatment for English teachers, but pushing for the censorship of every little website that doesn’t agree with them isn’t going to do any favors for ATEK’s image or the ones they claim to represent. It reeks of immaturity.
Pawikiroggi,
“this atek is more interested in promoting the rights of those accused of molesting little boys and girls than they are in the rights of children.”
I guess you have to consider who is doing the accusing and the lack of facts/proof. AES accuses English teachers of spreading AIDS, doing a lot of drugs, raping Korean women, molesting children and you believe it.
Pawi believes anything.
You don’t know what the hell you’re talkin about. This atek seems to be simply trying to defend innocent English teachers. Are you a member of AES? If not, you sound like you’d make a good fit just like Kang, Shin-who.
More Pawikiroggi poop…
“i find them siniter and question their real motives. they want to turn korea into a country a smal and craftyl minority can dictate to the masses. ”
AES is already dictating to you, and there has been plenty of minority(for example those behind Mad Cow etc…) dictating to the masses for quite a while now. Where the hell have you been.
Indeed – mkaplan
What are you talking about????
Hi,
I just want to clarify there was a communication error with regards to the ATEK press release about the letters sent to the NHN corporation in relation to the Anti-English Spectrum’s Naver page.
We made a mistake in relation to the title: The letters do not call for the group’s page to be shut down and furthermore ATEK does not want this to happen. Rather we support the call for all offensive material to be removed from the page, while still leaving the group active. We are not suggesting that Naver should start tearing down people’s sites because of the opinions that are expressed on there.
The title should have been “Naver Should Remove Offensive Material from the Anti English Spectrum”, which more accurately refers to what the letters are calling for.
We’d actually like to commend the Marmot’s Hole for speaking up in defense of free speech and the individual’s right to put forward their opinion, even if it is a controversial one. As you’ll see in the actual letter, which will be made available shortly, Andrea Vandom repeatedly makes it clear that free speech is a right that should be upheld.
Put simply, unpopular speech is fine and we don’t take issue with it. Yet when what is being said is unfounded and could potentially cause harm to someone that is an issue: Saying you don’t like foreign teachers is acceptable, saying foreign teachers are giving your kids AIDS isn’t. It’s offensive and could be detrimental to the fate of English teachers in Korea if some sort of hysteria were to develop because of it.
Once again ATEK does not want to see the Anti English Spectrum’s page shut down, we merely support the call for the removal of all material that is offensive to foreign English teachers.
Thank you for comments and opening a dialogue on this release.
Yours sincerely,
Dann Gaymer
ATEK Communications Director
Greetings:
Nazi parafernalia and attitudes are forbidden in some countries not suspected of anti-democratic attitudes. Banning those creeps in Naver? Certainly.
Room-temperature IQs, Klannish racial views, jingoism, semi-literacy, banal nativism, virginity into middle age and all the resentments that breeds, knee-jerk reaction, rank intellectual dishonesty …
I see pawi vs Koreansentry in a race for the bottom and I’m not sure where to place my bets.
I don’t think the internet should be censored. It is how we as human chat, communicate, do business find jobs, learn new stuff. I do not, as a libertarian, believe in censorship. Censorship is something that primitive and backward governments engage in.
If the anti-English Spectrum idiots are guilty of ‘hate speech’ then prosecute them. They’re obviously a bunch of wankers, but I suggest letting them say their bit. I quite like freedom, I like the fact I can write that Anti-English Spectrum tossers are making themselves look like complete and utter cunts!
In my opinion the only things that should be censored are those things show images of children-people being sexually abused, because that stuff is really wrong. Apart from let the nutjobs have their say, whether they be the BNP, FOX ‘News’ or the Anti-English Spectrum idiots.
I don’t like the fat I can’t read the NK news in SK anymore, I used to be most amused reading their infantile rantings, the South Korean government already censors to much.
“Vandom also pointed out that Article 4 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), which the Republic of Korea fully supports, states that the promotion of racial hatred, such as in posters used by the Anti English Spectrum on their Naver page, is illegal.”
So if they close down AES they’ll have to rewrite the article.
I think organizing ATEK is a very good starter. And I have a couple of suggestions and a question for the success of the movement.
1. ATEK should actively clarify that ATEK is not organized to defend sex offenders nor it promotes such criminality. If the association fails to keep away from the possible criticism and allegation, it will face more difficulties and wider oppositions in its movement.
2. There must be an organized project that will improve the images of English teachers in Korea. One teary moving story on TV will change the Koreans’ public opinions on English teachers in a day. An episode of volunteer work or donation reported on Korean newspapers will, in a day, change the misconception on English teachers in Korea. ATEK should more actively let Koreans know the stories of English teachers’ contribution to Korean society.
3. I am curious about the membership qualification. Can any English teachers join them, even native Koreans? How about other Asian English teachers who are expected to come to teach English in Korea?
Anything that can remotely be portrayed as censorship coud backfire, PR-wise.
It might be better to try to name, shame and pillory that group and its sympathetic journalists and politicians, like a few bloggers already do, but on a scale that gets the attention of a wider audience. A Choe Sanghoon NYT article or the like. Korea will host the G20 in 2010 and aspires to host future Olympics, so leverage that image consciousness and desire to eliminate embarassments.
I personally agree with Slim here; if possible it’s better to shame than to ban. But if the anti-English teacher racist peeps begin to plan any actions or incite violence then shutting them down loudly would seem the best move.
‘ATEK should actively clarify that ATEK is not organized to defend sex offenders nor it promotes such criminality. If the association fails to keep away from the possible criticism and allegation, it will face more difficulties and wider oppositions in its movement.’
just yesterday, i read a post written by an expat where he berates the chosun ilbo for publishing stories of english teachers accused of sexual misconduct with their students. his primary complaint was that the chosun ilbo didn’t provide any evidence for the accused teachers’ guilt. in other words, a korean newspaper has to prove the guilt of the accused before reporting about it because the accused at hand is a westerner. it’s not the job of the chosun ilbo to prove the guilt or innocence of those accused of a serious crime, that’s for the police and the courts. the chosun ilbo has every right to report any criminal activity perpatrated by any individual regardless of race.
but that wasn’t the poster’s angle, he was more interested in the rights of accused child molesters than he was with the rights of children to be protected from predators.
*****
‘A Choe Sanghoon NYT article or the like. Korea will host the G20 in 2010 and aspires to host future Olympics, so leverage that image consciousness and desire to eliminate embarassments.’
didn’t japan just recently host the olympics?
*****
atek’s attempt the silence anti-spectrum smacks of censorship. no need to einstein this one. it’s censorship. you got problems with what they say because (you say) what they say causes real problems for your average english teacher. if that’s the case, you take them to court for libel. prove your contentions. it’s not enough to say that they’re speech is harmful. the bar is set much higher than that.
you’d be well advised to move away from this one, mr atek president.
*****
i’m not sure where you folks got the idea that i am an anti semite. and grow up, slim. act your age.
you too dl barch. did you call me out over the internet? are you still in grade school?
i’m looking for civil discussions.
A title can mean different things to different people.
I didn’t for a second think that “pull the plug” meant completely shut down AES. Throughout the press release or what I read it clearly stated that ATEK is mainly against the offensive material.
Hasn’t the Marmot “pulled the plug” on free speech by banning a poster or two?
what would happen if, suddenly, porn was banned, and there was no more eye candy when a purveyor was in the mood? might have to actually go outside and seek out the real thing…gradually…eventually…like a zoo animal looking for a way out of the cage. Case in point, the pimply faced virgins and PC bong whankers of Korea – who need an outlet to express their angst against corn-fed white boys who steal their women, because that’s what it’s 90% about. I’d like to see how many actual parents are a part of that site. In any case, these guys get to rant against waygooks, blow their loads, and then probably don’t even look up from their Nintendo DS to give Joe a dirty look while riding the subway. Take AES spectrum away, and they will start parading in the streets dressed up in white tunics.
ladies and gentlemen, i give you…expat, dinkus maximus:
‘Case in point, the pimply faced virgins and PC bong whankers of Korea – who need an outlet to express their angst against corn-fed white boys who steal their women, because that’s what it’s 90% about. In any case, these guys get to rant against waygooks, blow their loads, and then probably don’t even look up from their Nintendo DS to give Joe a dirty look while riding the subway.’
yeah, he’s going to help your cause. reeeeeeeeeal classy.
@ dinkus
mmm… I can practically taste the bitterness from all the way here in Arizona.
I don’t think ATEK’s request (the clarified one, at least) isn’t unreasonable at all. Freedom of speech is certainly not absolute, especially when the group in question can be endangered by the mass hysteria of “they’re giving our kids AIDS!”
… Btw… when Korean parents think that the English teachers will give their kids AIDS, are they already assuming the English teachers are sleeping with the kids, or are they not too clear on how AIDS is transmitted?
“I don’t think ATEK’s request (the clarified one, at least) isn’t unreasonable at all. ”
Dang bum, go easy on the negation words. Too many strung up together in one sentence causes unnecessary headache!
Commenter 18 and 21 should be listened to as the voice of authority. Who else among all who read or comment here have a true insider’s sense of how the simple-minded reactionaries of the Anti-English Spectrum crowd “think” about these complex issues? If this commenter lived in Korea and had stones, he’d join the posse of 6-7 local male AES activists gathered near Hongdae to harass a 23-year-old English teacher and his Korean girlfriend.
“who need an outlet to express their angst against corn-fed white boys who steal their women, because that’s what it’s 90% about.”
—
that’s just a part of it, the other part is decades of forums like English Spectrum, Korea Herald, Korea Times, Dave’s ESL where Korean bashing is constant and normal. Koreans on the whole, are curious about what foreigners think (almost as an obsession). They read forums like that and they gradually become foreigner hating anti English teachers. As much as I detest the unfair pigeon holing of the English teachers in the media, (and I’m not defending Koreans and there their stereotypes) English teachers are also not entirely blameless either. Why is anyone surprised at the Korean stereotypes of English teachers who only care about having sex and making easy money? Why, just read all the forums mentioned above, posts after posts of Korea bashings and comments like “I wouldn’t be here in Korea if it wasn’t for the easy women and easy money, and that’s all Korea is good for” – straight from the horse’s own mouths. How many times do you read that, and how many Koreans pick up on that and become anti English teacher? This has gone on for decades, ever since Korea had internet.
Were you addressing mkaplan? I think his comment was a swipe at Pawi.
Ever since Columbus landed on the New World, White boys have demonstrated a prodigious capacity for causing trouble wherever they go.
They read forums like that and they gradually become foreigner hating anti English teachers.
Kyopos, yeah, but Koreans?? Koreans, at least the ones I know, have never heard of the above forums and would care less. They’re busy doing cyworld, chasing celebrity gossip, etc to be bothered by forums which they don’t understand, because of their lack of English skills.
Of course the Korean media would occasionally post stuff from the forums, during a slow news day, and that would create a buzz. But after a while people would forget, that is until the next session.
This has gone on for decades, ever since Korea had internet.
If I remember correctly, the Internet as we know today, became accessible to ordinary Koreans during the mid 90s. So a decade, yeah, but decades? Not even close. And the forums, to my knowledge, is a recent phenomenon. Me thinks the oldest forum is 7 years old or less. One also has to consider that the large influx of English teachers to Korea started at the turn of the century, when the Korean government decided that using native speakers to teach English to Koreans is a good idea.
Pawi,
There you go trying to twist it around, nothing anyone has said here is close to calling english teachers big time drug takers, rapists of Korean women, molesters of children, AID/HIV infected disease spreaders etc…
If AES really wanted to do some good they would stalk Korean teachers.
I don’t think you’ve spoken out against anything AES has said, I’m still thinking you are an AES Member.
About poster dinkus maximus,
Yes, virgins have pimples oh my! Hell, I’m not a virgin but I got blackhead pimples on my ASS. A whanker(not even a word), oh my! But yes, people maturbate oh my!
It’s not like he said they masturbate a lot in public anywhere and everywhere thoughout over S. Korea.
Pawi’s stupidist line of poop…
“don’t give in, korea. that child molester in thailand got into your home because you weren’t checking up on those who teach your children. you have every right to investigate anyone you choose just like 9-11 america. this is not about their rights but about your right to screen those who could pose a danger to your most vulnerable.”
The above tells me you know very little about the issue. How do you know CPN/the man from Canada went into a childs home???
Yes, CPN was here and Korea failed to stop him at their border/airport, but to anyone’s knowledge didn’t molest a Korean child. Korea has FAILED in protecting the children(they integrated discriminatory rules against E-2 visa holders while CPN had an E-7) because it’s not about protecting the children. That’s a line of Bullshit from Immigration and YOU believe it.
All you have to do is read about the Korean teachers who molest Korean students to learn how little Korea is protecting the children.
cm,
Why don’t you go to Daves and try to find anything close to what AES says about english teachers. english teachers mostly speak the truth over there with the exception of simple mistakes and untrue things being taken as fact spread by Korean Apologists.
ESL and those photos of orgy-style parties accompanied by horrendous words demeaning the korean women were splashed everywhere on the main pages of the Korean news portal – that was the first time I, and a lot of the others first became aware of it.. It’s going to be hard to erase that image, that’s when the damage was done – that and the reports in the main media from time to time- on incidents of arrests etc. what anti-english spectrum keeps drumming up subsequently is not of much consequence…
the english teachers need representative who will work to get the mainstream media on their side…and splash with the positives, counter-attacking english spectrum, who was originally set up to counter the english spectrum, and what’s allowed to be posted on that very site… seems redundant going around in circles…
last sentence should read counter attacking ANTI english spectrum,
atek is anti-anti-english spectrum .. this shows how silly their strategy is.
As always, cm pretty much hits it on the head.
Again, I direct you to Foreign Dispatches:
“Shocker: Foreign Douchebags Provoke Xenophobic Reaction”
http://foreigndispatches.typep.....ction.html
Speaking of foreign douchebags, some foreign douchebag — drunk and with what seemed to be a military haircut — was knocking on trying to open my door at around 4am today. I opened the door to tell him to bugger off, and he just hid behind the back of the door until I squeezed him out. Then he just smiled and walked off. Was knocking on and trying to open all the doors in my apartment, too.
Odd.
You must have scrolled past all his economic doomsday predictions.
@JW
Good god, my old humanities professor would have skinned me alive for that sentence.
Unless I saw an officer in uniform with a badge and ID in his hand, I would not open my door at 4 AM to anybody.
to cm
Amen! That’s kind of what I was trying to say, but Eminem was on the radio at the time of writing. The internet is not reality, and really just an opportunity for soap box hyperbole. I’d never say what I just said anywhere else other than here, and certainly not to a Korean. I actually really like Koreans, and sympathize with them starting to feel like a bus stop on a post-teenage field-trip for western males. The scary thing about Korea, though, is how the line between real and internet is constantly being blurred in the most wired country in the world. Koreans definitely have the advantage with being able to participate more freely and effectively on English forums – as is seen here with the Kyopo guys I understandably made angry above. Sorry dudes…I didn’t mean you.
i didn’t think you were talking to me; i just thought you were an asshole.
stiill do.
did you really tell him to ‘bugger off’? lol. most of your fellow americans don’t say things like that.
Absurd hyperbole. The fact is that the majority of Koreans could give a rat’s ass about what foreigners think — they’re too busy trying to make a living, educating their kids, keeping their heads above water and staying reasonably sober and sane in the great rat race to care about the whining and whinging of some pasty faced loudmouth pothead. However, it’s easy for those isolated in Korea’s EFL bubble to think that their precociously articulate toeic-centric students represent the sum totality of the Korean universe.
You are flattering yourself if you think Koreans, “on the whole,” have either the time, the place or the desire to peruse such forums to the extent that you apparently believe they do.
I mean, first of all, get over yourselves.
As a foreigner, teaching EFL on a limited visa, your temporary presence on the peninsula is neither significant nor important enough to warrant the entire expat community going to bat for you. Also, to think that the Korean populace, in general, considers you to be anything more than a curious freakshow or the occasional scapegoat is a gross overstatement.
That being said, you’ll be hard pressed to find a Korean born before 1978, who is: 1) Functionally literate enough in English to peruse predominately English-speaking boards or threads to any effect; 2) who has significant amounts of freetime on their hands — in addition to the typical 50-60 hour work or school week — to participate regularly on such boards in fluent English; and 3) who gives a rat’s ass about the plight of a bunch of thin-skinned, pastey faced whiney English teachers with entirely too much time on their hands.
oops, my bad: should’ve been “couldn’t give a rat’s ass…” in the first line
If anyone here still thinks Koreans don’t read what’s on sites like Dave’s or elsewhere, you are sadly mistaken. The sites are definitely read, then translated back into Korean and posted up on Korean portals. And this site is one of the sites that do get mentioned time to time. You want to find out for yourself? Just type your ID in one of the Korean search engines and see what the result is. Koreans are discussing your posts, how valid and/or lame your points are. There are several portals that does this, and they’ve grown big over the years. Koreans for the most part, are very curious about what foreigners are saying about their country. If English teachers resent the stereotypes of teachers as womanizing drug users, then think how much Koreans resent reading English teachers stereotyping Koreans as gay, dog eating, horcking/spitting, drunken wife beaters. You see, this stereotyping is a two way street.
So yeah, as much as I think the Korean media is being xenophobic and sensationalist against the so called “Bad English Teacher Problem”, the teachers themselves are not helping their situation.
Now is that mean that I think English teachers shouldn’t complain about the ideosyncrisies (forgive my spelling) of living in Korea? No, that’s not what I mean. There are ways to complain and then there are ways to just go off in a raving rant on them “Koreans”.
Amen to that cm. Building off on your point…
Whatever you, Dinkus (or anyone else for that matter), write absolutely belongs to reality, and has real consequences. You do seem to realize that there are real consequences, so here is to hoping that there is a little less soap box hyperbole coming from you.
More generally, (and I’m not saying Dinkus is one of the people I describe here,) I am beginning to think that much of the negative impact of the Internet comes from the fact that poor writers who are ignorant of the possible interpretations and consequences of their own speech are nonetheless given a chance to write and transmit their writing which does not properly capture the thought — which, upon further examination, is often eminently reasonable — that prompted them to write in the first place.
Was that just one sentence? Holy crap. I should not be allowed to write.
pawgookali –
Reread that last sentence where I apologized to you – I really meant it.
I’m not saying that Koreans don’t read such sites — I’m saying that those that have the requisite English skills, and the time to do so, are an exclusive segment — and therefore, minority — of the Korean population. Particularly those who do regular translations of English boards online, I know for a fact that they are typically HUFS –or the like — English majors or grads, who are simply trying to keep their translation skills on par, especially in an economic downturn.
Before you start getting a big head about how widely read you are among Koreans, it’s a well-know fact that Koreans use English BBs as one of the easiest and cheapest ways to practice English — especially the informal and in-your-face variety.
So while you and other English teachers continue to entertain paranoid delusions and fantasies — that Koreans are conspiring against you and other expats online — for the most part, it’s just harmless chattering and thrill-seeking vis-a-vis indulging in an alter ego via a foreign language.
thekorean –
you pull that off well, actually. i get what you mean, and admit my own hyperbole could be taken in many ways and doesn’t make for effective communication. If translated into Korean – like anything a foreigner writes about Korea, the spin will be far more negative than positive. Take the example of the German girl from the cast of that um…show – where attractive foreign women answer questions about spicy food and have chopstick contests. She wrote something nominally negative and the netizens went to town on it. The world goes around because people agree to disagree, and I think there is a balance which is usually present between Asians and Westerners…in some places more than others. Canada, for example.
i get so tired of hearing canadians babble on and on about how wonderful they are. bad newss, canadians are just americans who call
themselves canadian. shit little country.
Who said I was Canadian? I’m British.
I wouldn’t mind having their national health insurance benefits though. Also, I like how the Candians honored — and are honoring — each and everyone of their war dead coming home from Afghanistan. I saw on the news how each and every Canadian town — small and large — turns out to honor their war dead along the route of march from the aiport to the deceased serviceman’s hometown. With a full color guard and the local fire and police departments — sometimes waiting for hours — they’d render honors as the funerary procession passes under a highway bridge or on a country road.
This would never happen in America, where the average American is so completely divorced from its military that we have no idea — let alone a care — about who our war dead are, or how they’re honored.
‘This would never happen in America, where the average American is so completely divorced from its military that we have no idea — let alone a care — about who our war dead are, or how they’re honored.’
agreed.
Well, here’s the thing:
If I were in America, I would totally support the right of AES to express their opinions, however vile they may be.
But I’m not in America, I’m in Korea, and speech is far more restricted. And the things AES says? They wouldn’t FUCKING DARE say those things about Koreans. They lawsuits would hit them like a machine gun.
So my take? It’s about time English teachers had an advocacy group that will tackle this sort of thing. My hat is off to ATEK on this one. All they’re asking is that foreigners be entitled to the same legal respects that any Korean would be.
True dat. Thirty-seven percent of the Korean cyberworld is littered with translations of Someguy’s corrections.
If he could get it right the first time I reckon the reputation of English teacher’s would improve.
Whoops! …the reputation of English teachers…
Actually, now that I’ve thought about it some more, there’s no way AES could get away with the things they say even in America. They’re a hate group, simple and plain.
By the way, there is a huge difference between the articles a website publishes and the comments at the bottom of said articles. Mr. Marmot has never said anything objectionable, but the comments threads on his website certainly have. Shut down The Marmot’s Hole? Of course not. Again, there is a huge difference between articles and open forums. Nobody should be held legally accountable for things said in the latter. Even pawi.
I saw one of those Canadian dead soldier caravans. Basically, every dead soldier in Afghanistan flies into CFB Trenton, and is then driven to Toronto for additional autopsies, etc.
The deceased’s family usually rides along, in a separate hearse, for the 2 hour ride.
All along the way, at every overpass along the 401 highway, local towns come out and wave flags and salute the caravan. You usually see a few ambulances and firetrucks in the mix. I guess it’s meant to show support for the families. The whole thing is sad, but moving.
“Ever since Columbus landed on the New World, White boys have demonstrated a prodigious capacity for causing trouble wherever they go.”
Why only since; and Columbus was a wop, not a real white boy.
“Unless I saw an officer in uniform with a badge and ID in his hand, I would not open my door at 4 AM to anybody.”
Just one of the benefits of living in korea.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. There are plenty of groups in the US that say much worse things than the AES and “get away” with it.
I’m really surprised that in all these ‘carefully considered, well balanced’ thoughts no one thought to mention the traditional limits of free speech, commonly embodied by the “you can’t shout ‘FIRE!’ in a crowded theater” example. Are Carr and the others on vacation? Or just tired of educating puerile commenters?
Having said that, before anyone points out how unlike this situation is to a crowded theater, I personally have been attacked in public no less than three times without any provocation or warning whatsoever, and while 3 points doth not a curve/causality make, I can only wonder about the ‘coincidence’ that these attacks followed media reports about ‘bad foreigners’ and occurred when there appeared to be a high level of bad press on foreigners. I should also mention that I’ve always been tagged by people, even ‘white’ people, as ‘looking very white’ – my black friends called me ‘opie’- Ron Howard’s child character from Mayberry RFD, in case you are under 30)- so while I can’t logically conclude that these street crazies are attacking me just because I’m white, one still has to wonder. This is my own personal story, but I know others who have been attacked, including a close friend who was accused of a crime that he certainly did not commit, and without evidence or credible witnesses, the case proceeded through the main case and the prosecutor’s appeal, both of which were won quite easily, since the case had only proceeded on the assumption that many foreigners were of criminal tendencies and was utterly lacking in substance.
So yeah, free speech is not quite the same as speech inciting to riot- and the proof of this is when those loose fringe elements start acting on the presses words – anyone remember the anti-Chinese billets of the 1900’s, and the Alien and Sedition acts?
As for the alleged ’shameful conduct’ of the foreigners themselves, I won’t stoop to attempted defense, but merely point out that we are all ignoring the larger hypocrisy here – and as an American from the king of hypocritical government/histories, I’ve learned to recognize hypocrisy both official and personal (see above paragraph). Foreigners here have done nothing worse than the average Joe (Cho) Salaryman does on a Saturday night – the difference of course being that because of Confusionist role-playing, a salaryman is allowed to play whereas a teacher is not. Since Confusionism is indelibly a part of Korean culture (now, not historically), I can certainly accept that we need to respect these distinctions, and save the wishing that Koreans would get back to the liberal Three Kingdoms period for the historical closet.
Of course pointing out that the current government hypocrisy (courting Free Trade Alliances while clearly allowing these elements to run amuck, the same government that arrested a guy for saying the Korean Economy was in the toilet) is like other hypocrisies of the past is really not helping matters. Korea has a bright future in the new reality that has been forged for it – it is high time that they leave the ‘frogs well’ , shaking off the old ‘hermit kingdom’ moniker, and acknowledge that immigration can actually strengthen and bolster the economy in hidden ways (I’m constantly saying this to anti-Mexican racists back home)
On that note, I’ll close by acknowledging the arguments above, that 18 or 19 thousand E2 visa holders don’t really have much more than a symbolic impact (except if they could each teach ten children not to sneeze or cough without covering their face- we’d all be saved then)- but I see this debate as presaging the grand debate on what to do with the seething racism when 25% of the country is of mixed race ten or twenty years hence. It’s unlikely they’ll be able to throw out most of the Chinese like dictators past have done, and even less likely that they’ll be able to pacify all the SE Asian mix kids who got bullied right out of school and joined gangs of the same. Englishee teachers are the least of Korea’s racial problems and the sooner it is recognized for the larger issue the better.
Maybe it’s easier for some people to have sex and make money in Korea. What’s wrong with saying it? If someone said the same thing about the USA why would I care? Maybe some Korean women like to have sex with foreigners. Is that a problem?
Some people were hanging out at a bar partying and fucking around. Orgy party? haha – fuckin christ…but would it matter even if it was an orgy?
no there’s nothing wrong with saying such things as “the korean whores like to give it for free if you tell them you will teach english and that you prefer the bitches who wear 1000 won panties from dongdaemun market, (it was more vicious than that) ” but if you are stupid enough to brag about such stuff on the internet, just be prepared that it will get talked about on the internet, and that normal people will consequently start to wonder what sort of people are teaching english to their children and start forming prejudice.
mkaplan,
Not criminal accusations/lies against a minority group on a regular basis and in the local newspapers/Internet, then supported by presidents of the biggest universities/law makers etc…
Shit would hit the storm one way or another rather quickly.
yuna:
That party was organized and run by the Korean women that owned that bar in Hongdae and the only degrading language directed towards them was from male Korean netizens enraged by the photos of them having fun which were put on the internet. Those women made a free choice to have a party in their bar and were persecuted for it by male Koreans. They were female business people trying to make money in a free economy and you reinforce the misogynist sentiment in Korea by suggesting that they are not free to do as they like with their bodies.
pawi:
a) The rights of the accused have to be protected until they are convicted. You don’t live in a fascist police state. Yet.
b) Shit little country. I can think of an even smaller country in North-East Asia that literally does smell like shit.
We’ll always remember that getting our rocks off consisted of nubile lassies, and never crestfallen native men whose temple-in-the-forest prayer did not account for the players beyond the pale.
This is our prayer.
yuna,
You suck! And I agree with MrMao’s recent post, that’s how I remember it unless you provide the link you supposedly refer to.
If you are going to quote someone from years ago you’d better provide the link, otherwise I call BULLSHIT(on you).
Not only that, you don’t quote someone and then say… “it was more vicious than that.”
If… “it was more vicious than that,” then your quote isn’t really a quote. DUH!!! You, yourself let us know that your quote is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.
And, you really ought to end the so-called quote of another person before your opinion in parenthesis.
It’s ok, she’s a Korean talking to Koreans so simple assertions without evidence to support them are acceptable discourse.
White men, speaking of Columbus, need something real to lend their tender guts for. I’d give mine own for a United Celtic Nation.
Fuck this fascination with Asia. Bha e sporseil ach…tha na daoine ’seo gu math neonach. Mar cuspair, tha ’sonagi’ seo. A bhean aig a bheil ar peachadhd. Ith mo chach, ban-Eireanach.
I can’t speak for Carr, but the latter for me. Yup. Given the state of his blog, I would imagine Brandon would agree with me.
To which, I can only repeat what I said earlier, with an appropriate emphasis that might help…
[M]uch of the negative impact of the Internet comes from the fact that poor writers who are ignorant of the possible interpretations and consequences of their own speech are nonetheless given a chance to write and transmit their writing which does not properly capture the thought — which, upon further examination, is often eminently reasonable — that prompted them to write in the first place.
Wow, squarely righteous English teachers. I hope they will enjoy THE Korean male losers in the near future.
I’m a race traitor who doesn’t understand a word of Gaelic beyond Erin go brach and Sinn Fein. How do you say “English food sucks even more than Irish food” in Gaelic?
C’mon, bangers and mash…toad in a hole…spotted dick…mushy peas! are WORSE than Irish food?! There’s no food in Ireland, that’s why they all emigrated. You haven’t had the traditional English roast beef, have you? The full English breakfast is the world’s best. How ’bout English bacon? Far superior to that strip of fat that’s passed off as bacon in the states. And do the Irish have cheese of the quality of Stilton, or Red Leicester, or Double Gloucester? I can’t even name an Irish cheese.
There are many cuisines superior to the English, but Irish isn’t one of ‘em.
Irish cuisine isn’t superior to English cuisine because they’re basically identical. Even the full Irish breakfast is virtually the same as the full English breakfast.
what is the stereo-type of a Korean woman who sleeps with a foreign guy…or falls in love with a foreign guy….marries a foreign guy, and bears him children? Does she need to be protected by AES? Does she need AES watching out for her? Would she thank them, swear off English teachers forever, and marry the vice president of AES instead?
As always, cm pretty much hits it on the head.
Well, your opinion. But I tend to disagree considering that the commentator in question tends to flip flop according to the situation at hand.
Now let’s be real here. Korea is the place for easy money and women for an English speaking white guy. Koreans want that guy to teach them the essence of “native” English or to act as their translator and English document making machine, some Korean women love to be around him, just to show that they know whitey and thus are a cut above other Korean women, and some Koreans worship the white race enough to pay the guy double of what a Chinese American English teacher gets. And if that guy wants to brag about it, well it’s his choice.
So let’s not waste time going around saying “English teachers should behave properly”, “You bought this onto yourself” etc. I mean does anyone here expect English teachers, at least the ones with “party” on their minds, to suddenly start acting like angels? And yes Koreans are partly to blame for opening Pandora’s box.
Speaking of Koreans. If some Korean guy who just lost the girl of his dreams to whitey wants to get back by joining an anti-English teacher forum, well it’s his choice too. As long as we have wacko English teachers we’ll have wacko Koreans. That’s life.
actually i looked it up because i just remember reading it a long time ago..i don’t know where the original link went but anti english spectrum <bless their little cotton socks have kept a copy.
but in case they take it off shall i cut and post it in its entirety here?
i don’t like linking to and cut and posting to 쓰레기 thoughts..
mr.mao, tbonetyler and hardandtiny, how come yiou have such knowledge of the incident?
as i said, prior to reading that post and seeing the photos on daum or naver website(i don’t remember) and some associated articles on it, i had no knowledge or views one way or another and that was a very very bad first impression. i have not been following whatever the anti english spectrum has been doing since, and have no interest to do so (apart from hearing it talked about here on marmots hole) and i just think the way to get rid of the bad impression formed on me and on the other koreans is to engage in positive way with the public and the media. not to engage in a war with the anti english spectrum
as i said, a. i think korea brought it on itself, with its crazy english education boom so korea is to blame on the whole. b. while there is nothing to stop an individual to behave any way he wants to within the boundary of the law, what should be highlighted is we are talking about the “teaching profession” and especially if it involves children.
some of us are still naive and would like to think that taking up a job as a teacher, there is some sanctity and integrity that need to be associated with that job – and it actually affects other lives, especially of the students..- fine if you are here to give a paid opinion or do contract work for a company, why, go ahead by all means. but if you are a teacher, and you come to really hate the people, screw the women around and even start to despise your students enough that their accents piss you off and you hate their guts, then you owe it to yourself and your students to just leave, and not teach.
How did a “United Celtic Nation” request transmogrify into an Irish Gaelic only forum.
Many of us celts do not nor ever have spoken irish gaelic only one of around eight or nine languages spoken by celts or even visited ireland for that matter.
world’s best? only for hangovers, and i prefer danish bacon..
the reason why the full english breakfast has to be full is because they have cucumber sandwich(wtf?) for tea.. and chip butty??? ???
vindaloo and pizza and chinese takeaway have become the normal english food. no wonder.. sunday roast is ok, but mint sauce is disgusting.
& american food has to be the worst in the world: only there i’ve encountered cheese like melted plastic the colour of yellow cab coming out of squeeze bottles.
Leave the chip butty alone Yuna, that alone makes english food the best….
pass the malt vinegar will you….
(or at least tell me where I can get some in Seoul)
For that matter where can I get a decent chip butty, rather than bloody french fries.
poor arg – all homesick/nostalgic for bad food…
i found it on the internet:
you might have to go to itaewon to one of the expat shops:
해든 하우스 02 2297 8618
call them ask them if they have 맥아식초(mega shikcho) or 몰트식초(moltu shikcho) before going there.
(이태원의 한남 하이츠 아파트 지하 상가에 위치한)
개인적으로 라즈베리나 사이더, 샴페인, 몰트와 같은
특이한 식초들과 오일을 자주 사러 가는 편.
1, 3호선 옥수역에서 마을버스를 타도 좋고 걸어도 10분안에 갈 수 있다
http://map.naver.com/local/com.....e=11886643
strange they don’t have malt vinegar on the supermarket shelf – the koreans went through a vinegar craze, all those fruity vinegar drinks that they came up with – and different vinegars including balsamic from modena etc
as for real chips get some potatos and deep-fry them yourself…
but you need the grungy weather with drizzling rain and bad central heating for greasy soggy chips to taste nice so it might not work in seoul..
That’s easier said than done Yuna, you have to get the right variety of spuds for good chips not just any variety. The Wolfhound used to do good fish & chips for a while but changed the chips to potato wedges cos they couldn’t get a reliable supply of chipping spuds.
I’ll try that for the vinegar though, thanks.
In case you can’t read the Korean in the post above, Haddon House is actually in the Oksu area, at the Hannam Heights Apt. shopping arcade (220-1 Oksu-dong, Songdong-gu), so try heading over there instead. In terms of variety and selection (but not price), this place is easily the best. If you want it, and no else has got it, there’s a very good chance that Haddon House carries it or can get it for you.
We now return you to our regularly-scheduled angry discourse.
The full English, Irish, and American breakfasts are very similar (basically the same) and very good. They’re arguably the best breakfasts in the world. And classic American food is basically British food or British derived.
British food has a bad rep but if you’re a meat and potatoes guy who likes his fat and grease, like I do, British food can be quite excellent.
tbonetylr,
There are criminal accusations/lies against minority and majority groups on a regular basis in the US. And whether these criminal accusations/lies are supported by politicians and other influential figures is contingent upon Lenin’s all important political question, “Who – whom?” There are certain groups that are basically protected groups, others that are not.
I should be amazed at how 84 comments can be added to a blogpost and only a few dozen directly relate to the OP’s post. In any case…
Bravo to ATEK for actually doing something in trying to help their constituents. That AES has managed to weasel its way into enough teachers lives to become more than just a nuisance should make people aware of their powers.
But what happens if Naver throws into the recycle bin and shrugs their shoulders? What recourse does Andrea / ATEK have then? Is there a libel lawsuit (oh the irony) at hand? Would there even be a court that would take the case?
mkaplan:
AES is being accused of violating the terms of service of Naver’s parent corporation. Their website is hosted by Naver, and as such, are forbidden from propogating hate speech.
For comparison, look at the situation with Facebook groups and MySpace pages. Hate groups are swatted down routinely on those sites for violations of the TOS. All ATEK is asking is that Naver enforce their own TOS.
This won’t stop AES, of course, But it would force them to use their own money to have a website, rather than have it hosted by Naver. Further, it would forever brand them as a hate group (and rightfully so). This would call into question the ethical integrity of certain reporters that have relied heavily on AES for information, and possibly even certain legislators who have done the same.
Wow, Pawi supports a group of co-ethnic stalkers who are motivated by a raft of psycho-sexual and racist motives. Who’d have thunk it?
‘Wow, Pawi supports a group of co-ethnic stalkers who are motivated by a raft of psycho-sexual and racist motives. Who’d have thunk it?’
i support aes’ right to free speech. i think they’re concerned about the safety of their children. you, on the hand, think it’s all about your dick.
tsk, tsk, tsk….
btw, how many of you would support korea shutting down dave’s esl cafe? that’s a hate site where harmful speech abounds. where’s atek’s call for equality? hypocrisy at it’s most expaticus.
english teachers seem more concerned about the rights of accused child molesters than they are with the rights of victims. makes them look siniter.
how are you, brian?
Is it, really? Or does it just hurt your Korean
Inferiority ComplexPride™?Is the Hanja name of Gwanghae-gun backwards for particular reason?
for a particular reason
Re: Ever since Columbus landed on the New World, White boys have demonstrated a prodigious capacity for causing trouble wherever they go.
That’s only because they beat the Chinese and Japanese to the New World. The real reason for white boys’ bad attitude is linked to their icky food… have you ever eaten the stuff the Queen of England chows down on? Yuk
Yes, I am aware of this.
The terms of service agreement is between the user and the provider of the service. As such, I imagine Naver reserves the right to determine whether or not one of its own rules have been violated.
Your examples of Facebook and Myspace are irrelevant. Other sites, such as Yahoo, reserve and exercise their rights to change their terms of service at whim, without ever notifying their users.
Also, Article Ga-4 of Naver’s TOS agreement does not include “hate” or “hate speech.” It uses terms such as “defamation” and “libel,” so use the proper terms when you discuss exactly what Naver says in its own TOS.
mkaplan:
I’m missing your point. Or you’re missing mine. Yes, Naver reserves the right to define what does and doesn’t violate their TOS. Are you saying that Naver is under no legal obligation to remove AES? Because I’m not aware that anyone has made such a claim (at least not myself nor ATEK).
Also, your useful clarification about “hate speech” vs. “libel” in fact strengthens ATEK’s case. Korean law has many more precedents of the latter than the former. So again, I’m not sure I see where you’re going with this. You said that there are groups in the US that say worse things than AES and “get away with it.” My counter is that they don’t say it on websites provided by publicly traded corporations that are monitored for TOS violations. If you feel this is in error, please provide links to the contrary.
“Because I’m not aware that anyone has made such a claim (at least not myself nor ATEK)” = Not aware anyone has said otherwise. My mistake.
It’s too bad they don’t just stop at speech.
Shut it down? No. Remove material that violates Dave’s TOS? Yes. Which is exactly what is being asked of Naver: removing material (not the site, just the material) that violates *their* TOS.
Um, no. I don’t give two shits about some fucko child molester. We are concerned about the rights of the 99.999% of English teachers who are NOT accused child molesters and yet are still painted as such by politicians and newsies.
Or do really believe we are all guilty until proved innocent?
Blogspot is owned by Google.
It seems to me, mkaplan, that in order for these blogs with offensive content to be getting “away” with it, we would be able to lodge a protest with Blogspot (Google), and they would not remove the offensive blog (as is happening in the AES case). Shall we try? It didn’t take long to find such a blog. (http://www.totallyduh.com/tag/.....cist-jokes) A search based on a racial epithet turned up such offensive content by the seventh or eighth hit. Is it your belief that such a site, when reported to Google as violating their TOS, will not be removed? Shall I flag it and see what happens?
Babaganoosh (and, I suppose, pawi):
Interestingly enough, the full letter of complaint points out several cases of English teachers who were child molesters and convicted criminals of Korean descent that AES had absolutely nothing to say about. Apparently, they only take issue when there is a white person to blame. Really makes me wonder how much they “care” about Korean’s children.
That depends. Naver reserves the right to determine whether or not one of its own rules have been violated. ATEK could file a libel suit and lose or just be awarded compensation or something.
I’m not “going” anywhere with anything. As you point out, there is a body of libel law and precedent that has developed in Korea. ATEK can file a libel suit.
I haven’t read Google’s TOS agreement, but I imagine it includes some sort of clause reserving its right to remove material or blogs it deems objectionable.
I don’t know what Google would do – but that’s the whole point, it’s their choice.
“but that’s the whole point, it’s their choice.”
And again, I don’t think anyone had said otherwise. At least not me or ATEK. So I guess I misunderstood you. I thought when you said “There are plenty of groups in the US that say much worse things than the AES and ‘get away’ with it,” you were saying that American websites often don’t enforce their own TOS. Could you please clarify what you did mean?
It looks like we’re (mostly) on the same page with the rest. I agree that the next logical step if writing a letter to Naver doesn’t work (and it looks like it won’t) would be to file a libel suit. Although I, for one, wouldn’t dare even speculate what ATEK’s chances are in terms of a lawsuit. I half think that anything with the term “foreign teacher class action suit” even remotely attached to it would be laughed out of a Korean court. But then again, that Indian guy got his legal recompense (what was it . . . an apology?). So you never know.
@99 and 102
I know of a blogspot blog by an expat living in Korea who frequently spoke ill of Korea, it’s culture, and it’s people. It must have been reported because google shut it down, and put up the message: “This blog is under review due to possible Blogger Terms of Service violations and is open to authors only.”
That’s what Google does.
If a website as a part of its TOS agreement reserves its right to remove material or blogs it deems objectionable, then it would be enforcing its own TOS agreement whether it removes or keeps material that a 3rd party finds objectionable.
Yep. And they had a choice. They didn’t have to remove it.
The terms of service agreement between a service provider and its customer is designed to govern their relationship (largely in terms of protecting the SP’s right to take action with contractual impunity to protect itself against any vicarious liability arising from the misconduct of its customer).
It confers no rights on third parties; so ATEK’s letter to Naver was a waste of time – especially since Naver would never risk offending its Korean customer by appearing to take sides with foreigners.
ATEK’s real remedy lies with an action for libel, which in any reasonably developed legal system would if successful result both in compensation (an apology, retraction and/or cash) AND injunctive relief, which could be enforced against both AES and Naver). I seem to recall, though, that injunctive relief is (one of) the 90 pound weakling(s) of Korean law, and am unsure about its avaialbility in Korea for an action sounding in libel (or any other tort). Brendon?
The letter nevertheless was a useful waste of time. Not sending it and then effectively complaining of Naver and seeking to have it joined to a libel suit in order to enjoin it, would be perceived by Naver, the court and the public (which would be fed this bit of red meat in terms only slightly more savory than Gooseshit Boy’s) as (foreign) disrespect of Naver (read “Korea”) and of the mythological preference of Koreans for negotiated resolutions and hence
almostcertainly would prejudice any legal action ATEK were to bring.sonagi, as you know, kwang hae was removed from office. i’ve tried to find a portrait of him with the kings robe on but it seems his name is ‘mudd’. that’s why i reversed his name. i only had paint at the time but i put a splash of yellow on his chest to imply he had a royal seal on.
Not quite. Far from it actually. An American breakfast usually involves a cartoon character of some type decorating a cardboard box. (Same with the vitamins.) That’s the most interesting bit of the entire meal. And it becomes inedibly soggy in two dozen seconds.
But the full English…brilliance on a plate! Two fried eggs (runny yolks, of course), two sausages, a couple of lean bacon rashers, baked beans (not the sugary American kind), half a grilled tomato, and toast. Add fried mushrooms and some spud to make it special.
The Irish fry their bread. How unhealthful is that!
The Scots have their dreary porridge.
I’m talking about a full American breakfast.
Not what many Americans happen to eat frequently for breakfast.
Yuna, you should hear and see how Korean men behave on vacation in the Philippines if you think English teachers in Korea are bad.
Pawi, I honestly hope nobody ever starts stalking you because they think you are smoking weed.
Seouldout, you sound quite English to me but I can assure you that here in the East Midlands they fry their bread at breakfast too. I never actually saw it in Ireland, but I’ve only been there a couple of times.
‘But the full English…brilliance on a plate! Two fried eggs (runny yolks, of course), two sausages, a couple of lean bacon rashers, baked beans (not the sugary American kind), half a grilled tomato, and toast. Add fried mushrooms and some spud to make it special.’
go to google for a picture of the full english beakfast. looks very good except that blood sausage which looks disgusting. it has bumps all over as if it wear impregnated with corn. add the very black color and well, it looks like a log of p—-.
btw, if koreans got ugly food with ugly names, then so do the british. i don’t think i’ll ever try ‘pond pudding’.
and chip butty? gross. french fry sandwich with ketchup? only the british.
MrMao: But we’re not talking about Korean men behaving badly, are we? Nevertheless, such powers of rationalization never cease to amaze me, as they remind me of the mentality of a six-year-old caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
“Yep. And they had a choice. They didn’t have to remove it.”
Really? If by “choice” you mean “leave themselves open to a slew of lawsuits,” then yes, I suppose Google did have a choice.
You make it sound as if Western companies enforce their TOS on a whim. I would argue they enforce them to keep their asses from getting sued off. A minority bringing a libel case against a Korean website may or may not be DOA in Korea, but it certainly wouldn’t be in America. In fact, since you’re such a stickler for terminology, such a case against Google most certainly would involve “hate speech,” which the US has laws about and Google specifically forbids in Blogspot’s TOS.
Again, I fail to see how “there are plenty of groups in the US that say much worse things than the AES and ‘get away’ with it.” The fact that Google could allow them to, but seemingly never does, is not them “getting away with it.”
If you want an example of a “group[] in the US that say much worse things than the AES and get away with it”, here is one. R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul, in which the Supreme Court struck down the hate speech law in St. Paul for being unconstitutional, which allowed the punks who burned a cross on a black family’s lawn to get away with it.
I actually support what ATEK is doing here, but facts are facts.
i know you’re probably right, but the english teachers are not korean men on vacation in the philippines.
so the link i provided, is that an example of material which should be removed, or is that ok because a.it doesn’t offend anyone b. if it originated from one of the english teachers forum.
a similar example would be koreans posting translations of (good and bad) comments by chinese or japanese netizens (usually during a sports event) and vice versa. – the bad ones are hate-inducing so should they be removed too? and leave the good ones?
Google had a choice because as a part of its TOS agreement it reserves the right to remove material or blogs it deems objectionable. Every kind of content and material can conceivably be offensive to somebody somewhere. Simply by virtue of hosting any kind of material, Google is basically always “open to a slew of lawsuits.”
You keep conflating the enforcement of a TOS agreement with the removal of certain kinds of material.
Like I said before, if a website as a part of its TOS agreement reserves the right to remove material or blogs it deems objectionable, then it would be enforcing its own TOS agreement whether it removes or maintains material that a 3rd party finds objectionable.
Companies in general can be pretty inconsistent, inattentive, lazy, etc. when it comes to their TOS agreements. Which is one reason why they tend to reserve all kinds of rights and cover themselves. And many companies, such as Yahoo, reserve their rights to change their TOS at whim, without ever even notifying their users.
As surprising as it may seem, different countries do indeed have different laws.
There are plenty of blogs out there right now hosted by Google that are arguably more “offensive” (though this is of course somewhat subjective) than the AES.
I suppose porn on a Christian (or any other religion) site may serve as a decent analogy.
Porn is generally legal in the US. A Christian social networking site reserves its right to remove material it deems objectionable in its TOS agreement. Someone uploads porn to the site. If it’s an illegal form of porn, it would obviously have to be removed. If it’s legal, the site can remove it, or not. It depends on whether it judges the material to be objectionable, which is really just another way of saying whether it feels like it or not. Obviously there are a number of factors informing this decision, but the most prominent one is of course likely to be the effect it has on business. The site may be filled with Christian porn freaks who have no problem with porn on the site, in which case the site would probably leave the material. Or it might be filled with strict puritan types who find it offensive and would leave en masse, in which case the site would probably remove it.
“Sperwer” made the same basic point above when he said that “Naver would never risk offending its Korean customer by appearing to take sides with foreigners.”
Never mind pawi refusing to engage over the AES tactics of consenting inter-racial relationships and all the sexual baggage they carry, he constantly misses the point (and in doing so pukes forth his ethnic bias again) by trying to turn it into a freedom of speech issue. It is simply about abiding by a TOS, just like you have to do here, although I must say our gracious host allows a lot more latitude here. Anyhow, you’d have to wonder about pawi’s loyalty to the minjok given where he lives. What passport do you carry, son, and who would you fight for if it came down to it?
How is that different than the battered hotdog covered in french fries, deepfried and slathered with ketchup that I see in nearly every pojang macha?
Darth,
You obviously didn’t don a pair of Pawi (TM) minjok blinkers before piling in to post a bunch of uninformed gibbon faeces. Speaking of pojang macha food, I think dokkboggi (sp?) is some of the most radioactive, colon-clogging, bowel-cancer-inducing stodge ever produced. Win a free date with me if you can correctly identify a single unprocessed ingredient in that muck.
McGenghis
You sound like a naïve young fella. If you’re not so young, it would be even harder for you, as there would be less time for you to turn yourself wiser. You should understand that we Koreans are barbarians, so what we say and do quite often are not quite what civilized folks in Europe and North America can feel comfortable with or understand. There is an excellent English word ‘outlandish’. I think that’s the word to describe the behaviour of the people of Non-European backgrounds in many situations, although there may be exceptions. If what you experience in Korea is very far from what you had expected, then I hope you have learned a lesson, and make better judgements in your next life adventures.
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