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Open Thread #123
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{ 219 comments… read them below or add one }
First
이런 젠장, 내가 할려구 했는데.
And since the SNUE President basically called me and all other native english teachers drug takers and people who are often involved in sexual harassment I’d say he is stupid and wrong. But of course you’ll have to consider the source to determine whether he was misquoted. “The native speakers are not qualified and are often involved in sexual harassment and drugs.”
Err, any help? I was trying to make some kind of set of coherent words (as a kind of mnemonic device) using the first letter of each of the United States, but I’m truly stuck.
Here’s what I’ve got so far:
CUMMIN MINNOW MOMMA WITCH SMACKING KNOWN SAWMILL MANTRAP
with the following letters left over:
CVDVF
Someone must be able to do better…
Wow, south korea ranked 115 out of 134 in 2009 Global Gender Gap report. That really sucks donkey balls.
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2009.pdf
What’s up with the clear downward trend in korea’s ranking beginning from 2006?
Adams-awry,
Trying to be a medium? I got the part MOMMA MANTRAP. I bet you are a man who has gone through a bitter divorce process.
JW,
Korea’s DanGoon fable (some say this is not a fable) tells the first Korean man came from Heaven while the first Korean woman came from a bear.
That tells pretty much how Koreans think.
marmot, could you restore the more recent comments button?
please?
I second, third, and fourth yuna. I really liked that button. But yuna, I asked about it already, so I’m guessing there are some technical difficulties?
baduk, what on earth are you prattling on about?
It looks like we are in for some colder weather this coming week. Yesterday, the high was 24 and the forecast is calling for only a high of 5 on Monday. Wow!
시모조 마사오 누구인가? WHO IS PROFESSOR SHIMOJO MASAO?
i found a translation of a essay written by a japanese professor who goes by the name of shimojo masao (下條 正男). the translator himself is a japanese of caucasian ancestry. here are some of prof shimojo’s comments:
‘Chinese influence was brought directly to bear on the Korean Peninsula in the 7th century when Silla accepted military assistance from the T’ang Dynasty during its attempt to conquer Baekje and Goguryeo. Silla thus became a T’ang vassal state, and their relationship became one of sovereign and subject.
This relationship was maintained through the Sung, Yuan, Ming, and Ch’ing dynasties and evolved into a tributary system. Every time a new state was established in China after a change of dynasties, it followed the pattern of sending expeditionary forces into the surrounding states (i.e., military invasions).
Whenever this occurred on the Korean Peninsula, the Chinese demanded the receipt of homage from the Koreans as a vassal. This was the Chinese version of an East Asian entity. Vietnam was among the vassal states,
but Japan was never incorporated into the framework of the system.’
the above is a hirohito fairytale, but folks, what we have here is a korea basher. anytime you see korea described as ‘the korean peninsula’, you got yourself a korea basher because the implication is clear; korea did not exist. there was no such thing as korea. there was only the korean peninsula. for example, if someone were to write, ‘sumo probably came from china via the korean peninsula.’ , you got yourself a sophisticated hater of korea. he thinks himself sly, but he hath no clothes in the sunlight of reality; his choice of words doth betray him.
getting back to shimojo, i wondered who he was. the translator didn’t provide any background information. of course he didn’t.
here’s about the only thing i could find on the good professor:
‘Adherents including Masao Shimojo (下條 正男, Shimojo Masao), Kunitaka Tanaka (田中 邦貴, Tanaka Kunitaka?), and GERRY BEVERS (ジェリベボズ*제리베보스) have presented arguments building on Kawakami’s arguments. Recent studies by numerous Korean and Japanese scholars such as Baek In-ki (백인기), Shim Mun-bo (심문보), Yu Mirim (유미림), Lee Han-key (이한기), Wada Haruki 和田春樹, and Jeong Taeman (정태만) have disproved many of the claims.’ (source: wikipedia)
well, it seems the good prof is a right wing japanese nationalist on par with gerry bevers. interesting the translator left all that out.
professor shimojo masao is now dismissed.
I have beena regular contributor to the comments section here… and thought you guys may be interested in a new blog that I have started…
http://hatewatchkorea.blogspot.com
HateWatchKorea is an attempt to record incidents of racism, bigotry and discrimination, as reported in the media/blogs. It will also track Government action/reactions…. take a look if you guys have the time.
Scoresman, got a tattoo!
Actually, the only objectionable thing about the previously quoted excerpt was the failure to substitute “the Japanese archipelago” for “Japan” (and perhaps to provide a more qualified statement regarding the nature of te relation between the Chinese dynasties and the Japanese islands).
And it’s hard to fathom how a know-nothing ultra-nationalist like Pawi could object to someone playing the same game without a skull-busting attack of cognitive dissonance
tbone:
I go back and forth on the qualification issue. Simply put, I do not see most native-English speaking teachers as being qualified. But the onus for this falls squarely on Korean shoulders. Korean directors, not foreigners, are putting up these ridiculous ads: “Come teach in Korea! No expereince or qualifications necessary!” And to take it one step further, Korean lawmakers, not foreigners, decided that a four year degree in Medieval Art was sufficient for an E-2 visa.
Nevertheless, seems like most of what I keep reading is: “These damn foreigners are unqualified!” I never seem to be reading: “Why can’t we seem to attract qualified teachers?” (hint: real teachers might not like starting at the same position as that guy with the degree in Medieval Art). As long as Koreans keep scapegoating foreigners for their own obvious blunders, then yes, foreign teachers in Korea will continue to be “unqualified” by my definition. But not by the Korean legal definition. Not at all.
As for the drug thing, well, okay yeah maybe President Song is a moron.
PAWI DINES ON THE EAST SEA CONTROVERSY
one thing i’ve learned about korea centered blogs is that there are quite a few bloggers out there who are dead set on having the name ‘sea of japan’ changed into the ‘east sea’. these folks feel the passion
of the legions of samurai dead by the admiral’s hand. they chop and suey korea’s desire for the name change into a thousand little pieces of stir fried muck. let’s look at some of their creations:
the ‘it’s-my-language poo poo platter’ : this dish is hemmed and hawed with the whine that koreans have no right to tell english speakers what to call the body of water between korea and the japanese islands. in other words, the yemaek shouldn’t tell any tom, dick, or brian how
to speak their native tongue. unfortunately, the chefs need to be fired because the dish is undercooked and without flavor. the english language doesn’t belong to any dick, brian, or gerry; the english languge belongs to the world. that’s why korea has the right to object the english name
of the body of water that exists between nipboa and solunggus*. english is the international language and because korea had no say when the the name ‘sea of japan’ was recognized, the issue must be revisited. send this dish back to the cook and tell him to get it right.
the ‘gulf of mexico oven bake with fried logic’ : this delicious morsel informs us the people of mexico and the united states have no beef
with the name ‘gulf’ of mexico’, therefore, korea shouldn’t have any pork with ‘the sea of japan’. too bad the bovine is a bit rancid as this is a strawman argument. it doesn’t matter what the people of mexico and the us think. the topics are unrelated. the smoke created by this recipe is a bit thick but if you look closely, you can see right through it.
i’d like to change the subject here a bit and present to you my own stunning creation. i call it ‘peking surprise’. my dish is very tasty.
it’s made with a huge dose of respect. won’t you dine with me?
i just stir fried the word peking with the word beijing and then added a little canton to the guangchou. i then dashed a bit of myamar to the yangon direct from rangoon. as a side dish, i made bombay curry with calcutta. i served this with some empathy and understanding that koreans want the name changed because they had no say in the matter. this dish can be cooked (and will be cooked) until the desired outcome is reached.
please forgive me if i have overstuffed you with logic and linear thought. i understand that not every mizab, brian, or legal counsel can enjoy the finer points of high culture.
*solunggus is a mongol name for korea.
石鵝
Would someone please pass the barf bag?
Granfalloon,
What about the SNUE President’s statement that Chinese, Danish, English, French, German, Russian, Spanish, etc… “Native speakers are involved in sexual harassment?”
It’s funny that the title of the Korea Times article is… “SNUE Takes Lead in Quest for Multicultural Society.”
The moronic SNUE President Song, Kwang-yong will need all the luck in the world to be successful in his “Quest” while defaming native speakers from all over the world. Wouldn’t a university president from America be fired for making false public statements against a minority group?
Oops, …”OFTEN involved in sexual harassment.”
sorry for another post but i just wanted to say something about this visa brouhaha you folks are always complaining about. the issue is very simply; the koreans have a right to control their borders. they have a right to say who can come in and who cannot. that’s their right, it’s their country. what do you want them to do? make their country into another mexico like you’ve done here? no, thank you.
additionally, the koreans are absolutely right in keeping out hiv infected individuals. south korea represents a virtual sex playground
for the lone male and if one of them who is infected with the aids virus is allowed free admission without checking his visa, then how many courtesans will be placed at risk? by extension, how many innocent men may become victims of any given korean policy that allows those who carry contagious diseases into the country? we koreans are concerned for the welfare of our courtesans and do not wish to see them go through the humiliation of dying of a disease that could have been prevented.
moving a bit further, korea should test all foreign english teachers for drugs. the test cannot be by urine sample but rather, by hair follicle
as many who attempt to pass themselves as english teachers are saavy in the art of deception. preventing some drug abuser from the trailer park just off route 67 from entering korea by catching their drug abuse is simply a way to ensure the safety of korean children who would be placed at risk in the presence of a drug abusing english teacher.
this is about protecting the children. who can be against that?
having said all this, let me say that pawi is not without a heart. as for the policy on hiv testing, i support a policy in which lone or married females and their families are allowed entry into korea without regards to their hiv status. however, lone males from any region should be tested upon entry to korea and then at unspecified time(s) to be determined by the korean government, so as to ensure no infection has occured while in the country. those individuals who are found to be positive for hiv should be deported as soon as possible as their illness may present a drain on korea’s healthcare system.
thanks for your time, guys.
石鵝 パウイキロギ 바위기러기
@ 16 granfalloon,
i agree.
i was shocked, no, horrified, when i discovered that the “free talking” classes i was supposed to facilitate actually required (imo) more teaching skills than those of the average (school) teacher…
i did not know this (since i have never taught EFL before)… and the recruitment agency i worked with certainly gave absolutely no indication of how hard it is to be a *good* EFL teacher.
i have tried to rectify matters (minimise the horror) by buying books & enrolling for a TESOL course –
but why the misleading advertisements??
imo, it is simply not true that you can teach EFL without any background in Education.
who benefits from having “unqualified” EFL teachers? – in my case, certainly not the teacher.
i am (blindly, i think) hoping that my students will benefit from the experience.
when i decided to opt out of “life as know it” for a year, i looked at various possiblities, countries etc.
i settled for korea because a journalist friend who had covered the WC in 2002 recommended it.
i often doubt my choice now, and not because of korea, but because i feel that – without the necessary skills – i’m doing no-one (including myself) a favour by being here.
i can safely say that i had no idea what i was letting myself in for.
whoever’s responsible:
it’s not OK to recruit people to “teach” english on a “you need no teaching qualifications” basis.
because it’s simply not true.
#17 That Peking Surprise is half-baked. Respect must go both ways and if you are looking for a compromise on a disputed name, you don’t come up with the name “East Sea” when the body of water lies directly west of one of the parties involved. Until Korea can come up with a better resolution, the name remains what it’s been known around the world since the first maps were drawn….Sea of Japan.
Come up with a more compromising and less antagonistic name and the world might take Korea seriously on the name change. Until then, the more widely accepted name stands. End of discussion.
pawikirogii,
Do you know that the “three kingdoms stories” started from a book(삼국사기) written during Chosen dynasty, long after three kingdoms and Gorhe? The book, which is supposed to be the compilation of oral history, actually has no other documents to verify its claims.
As far as I am concerned the book could be total fiction! There may have been no Shilla, Gogurhe and Baeckje. The author of the book may have tried to copy the Three Kingdom Story in the Chinese literature.
As far as being the Chinese vassal state, I will go a step further. I believe the Chosun dynasty was stared by a Chinese. Lee SungGye, whose father was a Chinese official in Manchuria, must have been able to speak fluent Chinese. I believe that was his main language.
I envision the Korean upper crust in Chosun dynasty all came from China and their main language was Mandarin. “King” is an official title for a person who is in charge of a region. The Chinese emperor rules over all kings. Korea was a region of China; it was ruled by a king appointed by the Chinese emperor.
This “Koreannes” and “Korean identity”, I believe, came from the Japanese. They wanted Koreans to be separated from the Chinese influence.
During Chosun dynasty, I am sure Koreans were very happy to be a part of the Chinese empire. After all, all knowledge came through the Chinese books. All Korean scholar class had ability to read the Chinese character; this ability separated three classes in Korea and kept the other classes in the dark.
Even though DaeWonGun had an ambition to come out from the Chinese empire (may be he read a book about French revolution?), the previous kings probably had been happy to be called “people belonging to the Great Chinese Empire”.
Don’t get me wrong. I am not in the Chinese side. Quite contrary.
However, I do not like to see Korean history to be distorted to suit Korean superiority complex. Nor do I like to see whole generation growing up believing a manufactured lie.
Korea has a very weak and shameful history. Its kings were constantly monitored by the Chinese Emperor through the form of envoys, who has sole right to review the records in the SungGuynGwan, the depository of records. Kings were not allowed to look at these records or order any worker to edit the records. What a system to keep Korean kings in a leash!
Kim Jongil, I am sure, is under the leash.
I say, what is past is past. If maids and servants from England can make a great nation like America, why not former slaves of China build a great and prosperous nation? Why not? Why Koreans have to make fabricated history to hide its shameful past?
The only thing Korea have to watch out is to go back to its original state, a vassal state of China. I believe as soon as the US Forces leave Korea, this will happen.
Pawi really is back and with a vengeance. I’ll take Glenn Beck for the minjok over the crazy monkey flinging poo around the cage any day.
end of discussion? who says so? you see, that’s what i like about the expat, he thinks it’s all up to him. too bad he’s absolutely wrong. the ‘east sea’ controversy shall continue until the korean people get justice. the name ‘sea of japan’ must be changed as english is the internatonal language and korea had no say when the name was recognized. of course, i’m reasonable; it doen’t have to be ‘east sea’. on that, we can negociate as long as no nation’s name appears in the final choice. i like the name ‘sea of kudara’ (백제해 百濟海 くだらの海) since
the word ‘kudara’ pronouncd english style has a nice ring to it.
****
i like you, baduk, but i’m going to have to ask you to provide proof that the ‘samguk sagi’ was maufactured during the choson era. professor lankov wrote an essay a couple years ago explaining the nature of china’s vassal relationship with korea. he basically said it was about lip-service. how is it possible that such an intelligent man can be fooled by our people? i find what you write interesting but i’d like to see more proof for your contentions.
on a related note, i was a bit surprised to see dr lankov is a handsome man. that goes against my stereotype of western men interested in korea. perhaps it’s all that borscht he ate while living under communism.
****
‘can someone please pass the barf bag?’ sperwer
first time you ever made me chuckle.
“on a related note, i was a bit surprised to see dr lankov is a handsome man. that goes against my stereotype of western men interested in korea.”
While you were on hiatus, Sperwer posted a link to his blog with photos of him from the neck down to just above the groin.
And we’re still waiting for Sonagi to provide proof to her claim that she has a Jennifer Love Hewitt – figure, but only better because Sonagi doesn’t have saddlebags.
A picture of Sonagi frolicking in the Sea of Japan’s waves on a peninsular-Korea beach gets my special attention. And gratitude.
Does the Korean definition of “sexual harassment” specifically exclude barber shops, tea houses, room salons, glass houses, and so forth?
You don’t want to see me frolicking on any beach, Seouldout. My pale Irish skin is more blinding than a direct look at a solar eclipse.
Powi,
Professor Lankov is hired by a Korean university and a wise man as he is knows not to bite a hand that feeds him. He has to be pro-North in his thinking because his students want him to be. And, he has to be soft on Kim Jongil. After all, it is his country that produced Kim IlSung regime and thereby enslaving North Korean people.
Russia and China fucked Koreans. Repeatedly, sending their troops into Korean peninsula. Now, only the US is blamed for positioning troops in Korea while Russians and the Chinese were given absolution. South Koreans are idiots; calling enemies to be friends while calling the US, the greatest and the only benefactor to Koreans in their five thousand year history, to be enemies.
Pro-North? Lankov? Surely you jest, Baduk, since Lankov has repeatedly criticized the North Korean regime.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Given the evidence that major investors are tax-averse, does tax policy = foreign policy?
#31 Yes, and so does the english definition, whats your point!!
All Korean scholar class had ability to read the Chinese character; this ability separated three classes in Korea and kept the other classes in the dark.
snap out of it, 바둑.. they still spoke korean, they spoke korean long before the hangul was invented. your point contradicts your own argument..
it’s not often i agree with sperwer – #18 was very nearly worse than mizar….
but it’s still too early for a conclusive judgment for my thumbs up or down.
From the Modern Konglish Dictionary
“Sexual Harassment”
A foreign male asking one of Our Women out on a date, or taking her photo (on or off the beach); speaking English with Our Women, etc.
“Rape”
A foreign male touching one of Our Women.
Speaking of pale Irish skin, I had an Irish coworker whose pale, creamy Irish skin was on display everytime she bent over to pick something up. It was like the Playboy TV version of Joe the Plumber, featuring an abundance of ass crack. I suppose some balance in the world needs to exist for all those hairy, nasty ass cracks that emerged every time those disgusting fat guys bent over.
Point is, however, I have definitively favorable views of pale Irish, female skin.
Just Sayin’.
I played gaelic football during my teen years with an irish american buddy of mine, with his father coaching the team. And if I remember my emotions correctly, I had a crush on his older sister. So ummmm, I really like irish people.
We finally get rid of wjk, and now we have to suffer through pawi’s drivel again? Christ.
#31. It’s “End of Discussion” in that until the disputing party comes up with a less antagonistic response to the situation, the more widely accepted name continues to be used. If Korea can bury its pride for 20 minutes and submit a more compromising solution, the original name should stand. This is the position the world body always takes. It’s not the position of “expats only”. Look up the definition of “world body” if you need further clarification.
Korea will be stubborn and always call it The East Sea in Hangul. Japan will do the same and always refer to it as Sea of Japan in Kanji. The dispute is what to call it in English. I don’t believe Japan is so stubborn though to refuse to approach the world body together with Korea and agree to an English name change but they will never ever agree to call a body of water on their west coast The East Sea. This is where Korea is being obtuse. Until Korea submits a more viable alternative, it’s end of discussion.
Personally, I think something like The Asian Sea or Sea of Serenity could be mutually agreed upon. All of my Japanese friends that I’ve discussed the matter with concur.
i like the sea of japan. i argue against any korean who says otherwise..
how about the east korea sea? then japan can have south japan sea instead of the Philippine Sea? we could have the west korea sea instead of the yellow sea then everyone would be happy, but i don’t like the yellow sea personally so i don’t want korea’s name on that sea.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:East_China_Sea.PNG
Seems like nobody reads the Christian Science Monitor. I am certainly not one myself but I have a high regard for anything that Donald Kirk writes.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1029/p06s10-woap.html
If one looks at the pic in the article must say it looks like a sure fireimitation of the real Kim! Clinton took along his personal physician more likely than not to make an assessment of Kim’s health than to look after Clinton…..no wonder Clinton told Obama so certainly that Kim looked in fine health. ty he was so easily duped by the Dear Leader!
‘thumbs up or down.’
yeah yuna, i think your thumb will be down. now ask me if i give a 똥 about what you think. i hope that helps you with your decision.
‘#18…mizar’
your right; that crap i wrote DOES look like something mizar would write. lol.
‘east sea….’
i told you it doesn’t have to be ‘east sea’. and the fact that you tell me your japanese friends don’t care is good news. then they won’t get angry when the name is officially changed.
‘lankov is agent for north korea…’
no, he isn’t, baduk. again, can you show me proof that the ‘samguk sagi’ was manufacured during the choson era?
this bears repeating:
According to Pearl S Buck, there are 52,000 half American-half Filipinos in Philippines. The majority of them were abandoned by American fathers. As for Japanese Yomuri TV being condescending toward Korea’s “Kopino” problems.. they are also in no position to be smug about it, especially considering that there are 100,000 “Japino” babies in Japan born out of wedlock between Japanese fathers (whom most do acknowledge their children) and Filipino prostitute mothers.
source: cm
And how many Korviet kids are there?
pawi, good to see you back. You dont remember me thank heavens, but I remember you. We all do, the fact is that the world will always recognize the East Sea as “The Sea of Japan”. If Korea is serious about taking back land which rightfully belongs to her then Korea need
Mt.PAEKDU…….first.
@tbone: Fired? Oh hell yeah. Making statements like that would be career suicide for an American university president.
@Alice: I get caught up in bitching about how unfair this system is for the students, I tend to forget it’s unfair for the teachers too. Kudos to you for making the effort to better yourself as a teacher. I only wish more foreigners would do so.
you should give a 인분 about what i think. i gave you one and a half thumbs up when you told mizar that he bored you
East (only of Korea) Sea?
[yawn] Not gonna happen. Sorry.
Next.
별말하지말고, 동생들.
Don’t fret, lass, I have sunglasses.
인분….what an interesting word.
야후국어사전 doesn’t even list the “portion” definition that most koreans are familiar with. I guess they were a bit embarrassed?
Just saw the Coen brothers’ latest film last night, “A Serious Man.” If they haven’t already, Koreans are going to go ape-shit when they see how the South Korean student and his father are depicted in the movie.
Spoiler Alert: So the kid fails a physics midterm exam at college, leaves an envelop full of $100 bills on his professor’s desk, and when the professor protests, the kid’s father visits the professor’s house to threaten a defamation lawsuit if he doesn’t just stay quiet, take the money, and change the kid’s grade.
Go see it if it comes to town if you want to see how it ends.
DLB
‘you should give a 인분 about what i think. i gave you one and a half thumbs up when you told mizar that he bored you’ yuna
you’re one funny gal, yuna.
‘Koreans are going to go ape-shit when they see how the South Korean student and his father are depicted in the movie.’
yes, but one must wonder if the expat will go ape-shit too. afterall, if it’s wrong for koreans to stereotype english teachers, then it’s wrong for westerners to stereotype koreans.
brian-in-chollado, when will i see your outrage?
An article on South Korea and its struggle with racism & xenophobia @ New York Times.
Hey, lay off Brian Jeollanamdo…when LPGA tried to institute a language policy against koreans, he called them punkass bitches for doing such a thing. I knew right then that Brian was a good guy.
So according to a Bloomberg poll Singapore ranks as the #2 financial center after New York, beating out London.
Hmm, surely those foolish investors should know that Seoul is the preeminent financial hub of Asia.
“Our ethnic homogeneity is a blessing,” said one of the critics, Lee Sung-bok, a bricklayer who said his job was threatened by migrant workers. “If they keep flooding in, who can guarantee our country won’t be torn apart by ethnic war as in Sri Lanka?” from ny times article
korea must prevent the tacozation of their country. only asians who can blend in (excluding the chinese for security reasons) should be allowed in as immigrants. pakistani people got no place in korean society. neither do
sri lankans or thais. on the other hand, mongols, vietnamese, and philipinos should be welcomed by korean society.
@59 NY Times piece
What an ugly expose of the truth about Us and Foreigners.
It’ll do wonders for tourism and Korea’s image in the world.
It’ll help the campaign for renaming the Sea of Japan, too.
Money quote: “When I see a Korean woman walking with a foreign man, I feel as if my own mother betrayed me.”
I’ll think about that the next time I see Our Heroes frollicking with the local gals here in the Philippines.
Tacozation?
That’s gross. And really offensive.
Whither Marmot’s Hole?
If Pawi were the only misguided racist fool to think like this it might be slightly amusing. But Korea — and even some of its diaspora — does have this unholy obsession with race. Copied it from Japan I guess. And it will bear the same rotten fruits: brain drain and deadly demographic trends. How many times have I heard Korean neo-Christians say that without faith in the good book’s rules they’d see the greatest logic in slaughtering the innocents of “inferior” races? At least five times, that’s how many. What a meme!
I dunno, I’m not quite sure this Pawi character is korean. No self respecting korean would slap up babelfish translations and laugh at himself for doing so.
Pawi not Korean!?! That would be a delicious discovery.
From that very interesting NYTimes piece:
[Mistake in the last comment corrected here; sorry about that.]
From that very interesting NYTimes piece:
“Yet, when South Koreans refer to Americans in private conversations, they nearly always attach the same suffix as when they talk about the Japanese and Chinese, their historical masters: “nom,” which means “bastards.”
This seems like an exaggeration. Most Koreans in private use “Mi-gook nom?” Of course I wouldn’t know, being a mi gook paek-in nom myself, but I find it hard to believe. Anyone know? And do people refer to Chinese and (still) Japanese as “nom?” If so, things are worse than I’d imagined. But isn’t the NYTimes making a mistake here?
Powi at 45,
‘lankov is agent for north korea…’
When did I write ‘‘lankov is agent for north korea…’? You are very distorting in that you quote me out of context, if it is a proper quote at all.
yeah, let’s make korea into a pakistan like america is being made into a mexico.
나는 모두를 나가 인송 차별주의자가 아니다는 것을 아는 원한다.
ok?
btw, ‘powi’? who’s misrepresentin?
The Korean male reporter who contributed the story probably hears those pejoratives frequently among his colleagues when talking about politics and current events. Middle-class, college-educated, largely Christian married Korean women I socialized with didn’t use nom period.
Could someone please translate this?
Nevermind. Pawi really is using Babelfish. I just input “I want everyone to know I am not a racist” into the textbox and got that mess as a result.
What I tell you.
Lol, and thanks Sonagi. Maybe you could tell me about more about the word “nom” — is saying “Choong-gook nom dul” as derogatory as saying “Chinks?” Or is it less pejorative, kind of like “Limeys” for Brits or “Frogs” for French — that’s to say earthy slang but nothing heavy-hearted?
“Nom” is like a “Mofo” in English. Depending on the accent and the context it is used, it could be good or extremely bad.
Adulnom아들놈 = my son, frequently used by fathers to call their son in adoring way
Mikuknom미국놈 = American bastard
For a woman, it is Nyun년.
Miguknyen미국년= American bitch (female only)
Educated Korean women usually do not use “nom”or “nyen” unless in special occasions as many American women will sparingly use “Mofo”.
Not “call”. They will never call their son as Adulnom in front of their son.
“Refer their son in adoring way in front of others”
아들놈이 이신발을 사줬어 Adulnom bought this shoes for me. = My son bought this shoes for me.
Nom is just delogatory.
However, you have to watch out who uses “Saggi”새끼. For example, 중국놈들 could be slightly demeaning. But, when someone says 중국놈 새끼들 or 중국새끼, he is harboring extreme prejudice. Maybe his father’s uncle died during Korean War by the Chinese bullet.
Watch out when someone calls you, 미국놈 새끼. Usually NK soldiers will use this profanity. Or, some pro-North Koreans. Not Dr. Lankov. Maybe his students.
Just leave the place when you hear that. Nothing good will come if you stay in the same space with anyone using 새끼. Maybe even 놈.
This does not bode well for Netizen Kim’s cat.
To get to the bottom of this 놈 and 새끼 matter I did a little exact-phrase Googling.
Results per term:
한국놈 — 47,000
한국새끼 — 5,710
미국놈 — 50,000
미국새끼 — 5,950
중국놈 — 38,000
중국새끼 — 3,271
일본놈 — 137,000
일본새끼 — 10,100
Thoughts on these?
“nom” is either mildly derogatory or used to denote that the subject is lower than the speaker in the social/confucian hierarchy (i.e. Ahdul-nom, as indicated above). “nyun”, I think, is significantly more derogatory than “nom” though. I don’t think any parents refer to their daughters as “Ddal-nyun”… at least in modern times.
“Saekki” is much more hostile, especially when attached to “[nationality]-nom”. “Migook-nom Saekki” sounds much more angry than “Migook-nom” (which might as well be a dismissive tone).
Btw, great to see that the tone of the MH comment section hasn’t changed one bit – “The Great Nation and People of Holy Korea shall rise again! Death to the infidels and the impure!” vs. “Korea is a fucking shithole where I can just take all my daily emotional diarrhea out on. Wah. Wah.” It’s like an American cable news channel, but only slightly less entertaining and misinforming.
썩을놈 is my personal favorite. And it’s even got a perfect translation into english — Rotten Bastard!
놈 자, 者
it’s not derogatory in the grand scheme of things, if 새끼 is to express the lowness of the subject by imbuing it with animal characteristics, then 놈, does this by drawing on the 계급 사회 archaic class system , where commoners were looked down on – someone without a title..
yes, i would say with the toned down offensiveness and friendliness of the word “bastard” used in english nowadays, “bastard” might be quite a close analogy..MOFO, NO! 바둑! NO!
what i thought was the most horrendous swearwords growing up:
상놈의 자식 sangnomui jasik ..translates as the child(lad) of a commer.
or 상놈의 기집애 sangnomui kijibe .. female child of a commoner..
that’s why until i was well into my adulthood, i didn’t think that the korean language had any sexual swearwords….little did i know..
Robert, I don’t think pawi is adding anything of value here, but instead is using your blog as a platform to spew antagonistic, racist hate. I request that if he continues to do this, you ban him quickly.
Well, this is interesting. If I recall correctly, pawi was banned because his vitriol was becoming increasingly personal and ad hominem. But what he’s saying on this thread is not that at all. He’s expressing a legitimate viewpoint shared by millions of people. Granted, it’s a viewpoint that is retarded and has been discredited by prettymuch every scientific discovery about human biology and sociology in the past hundred years, but it is a viewpoint nonetheless.
Ban or no ban? That’s Mr. Marmot’s call, and I wouldn’t dream of even advising him. S’funny, though, how pawi stepped up just as our favorite “black-haired foreigner” was banned. It’s almost as if seeing an opinionated ethnic Korean cast out by the white devils was too much for him.
Some future generation of archeologists ought to have a field day when they unfortunately stumble upon the remains of this drivel…er…discussion that was guided by the efforts of those false soothsayers pawi and baduk . I sure hope the avatars survive to help future Indiana Jones verify the sanity of this generation.
Funny, innit, that the moment WJK goes we get Pawi back. The more conspiratorially-minded amongst us would be inclined to think of it as a tag-team.
Word.
marmot gets a kiss on the cheek *chu* for bringing back the “older” button…
I don’t know how long it will last, though.
why? the button wears off?
If I recall, pawi wasn’t banned, but thankfully just stopped posting. And although his viewpoints might be “shared by millions of people,” that doesn’t deem them appropriate or worthy of time here by any stretch of the imagination.
Good, it was much better without the comment content preview and with a longer list of comments.
cmm, you’re right — he gave an impassioned speech declaring he’d “never be back” … LOL
I don’t think Pawi should be banned.
However, I do not appreciate him making up quotes to defame me. See 70.
There was a suspicious death in UN.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1224377/British-nuclear-experts-17th-floor-UN-death-plunge-suicide.html
This incident is very similar to former Huyndai president ChungMongHyun’s death. http://www.idoo.net/?menu=talk&sub=plaza&mode=read&no=13614&pno=7
There may be a North Korean assassin doing a subcontract work for Iran.
Chan-ho Park needs to shave his beard and get a hair-cut, methinks.
I don’t keep up with baseball so I’m suprised to see him pitching for the Philly’s right now at the World Series.
I thought he was going for the 산적 look, and I thought it was cool cuz he’s got the huge lower body that matches well with that look. I hope I’m not offending his super-attractive wife. Man…she is just butter.
His beard is impressive, I’ll admit, if one is going for the Sa-guk Grizzly look.
–
Paranormal Activity was such a tame-ass movie. Scary? Sure. As scary as a little girl.
I forget the impassioned speech. Must not have been memorable. No surprise there. I only remember his promise, and just wish he’d remember and honor his promise.
Mrs. Park isn’t bad judging by the following photo. But I don’t consider her super-attractive by any means:
Park’s wife
http://umpbump.com/press/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ParkRi-hye16.jpg
And,
Park’s beard:
http://readyandreach.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/chan-ho-park-best-asian-beard-award/
first, let me get this right out of the way:
i apologize to you, baduk. i misread what you had wrote. you didn’t say lankov was a nk agent. i apologize.
******
i was never banned from this board. i decided to leave on my own accord because i realized this place was making me absolutely nuts. i had to take a break. however, after seeing you yahoos drone on and on about korea for over a year, i decided to return. as for the timming, that’s just coincidence since i had been contemplating my return for more than a month prior to wjk’s ban. having said that, i will say that the comments dog, marmot, and sonagi made about me two open threads ago helped me make my final decision to return.
i’m glad to see so many of you are so elated to see me again.
lastly, i’d like to leave you with this quotable quote:
‘the average expat in korea is often complemented as having movie star looks (must be our noses) and can easily get the prettier korean girls–something the average locals (and probably you) must pay for.’ cmm, october 18, 2007 at 8:38 am
class, can we say ‘loser’? can we imagine which movie star cmm is mistaken for? that’s right, billy; will ferrell or george costanza seem like good choices. wish i could be a movie star like him. lol.
to jw: 폭규
didn’t get THAT ONE from babelfish.
it’s not that they are *complemented* so much as that they just identify the white men from watching movies..as a small child would say, “you look like the purple 텔레토비” ..
will ferrell or danny devito, it’s ok because if i remember correctly, cmm is the expat married to a grace park look alike. and i like grace park…제눈의 안경..
during the world series, a commercial for the movie ninja assasin was aired. commercial itself wasn’t enticing but check out this footage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63dfAPKVV1I&feature=player_embedded
the movie looks promising still. rick yune is in the movie too.
wjk gets banned and pawikirogii comes back? Just coinkidink or the altered ego? I vote for the altered ego because nobody with a strong opinion like Pawi can stay away from this board for one year. Unless he went blind, or lost connection. Does Pawi live in a communist country?
This reminds me of an old episode. There was an imposter about five years ago who impersonated several personalities. He was pro-Korea in his views. Is he still around? Is he Pawi?
Nah, he wrote much better English.
Compl*i*mented vs compl*e*mented…
yes. spellcheck off ..i just cut and pasted mentally from the comment above.. i wonder if he cut and pasted it from cmm’s original..
thanks dda.
Spellcheck wouldn’t have caught it
yes, i noticed that after that last comment. i meant a sapient spellchecker, not yet developed(or maybe it has but not used)
i’m going to say this one more time and then i’m done with it:
I NEVER ONCE POSTED HERE IN OVER A YEAR!
ok? you think marmot allows imposters? the guy is super smart. he went to gwu, afterall. he would have caught me long ago. get over it. it’s just a coincidence. alright? man!
ps grace park? well, on the net, you can have anybody you like. perhaps his vision is blurry due to excessive soju intake and sleeping past noon.
****
you’re offended by the word ‘tacoztion’? really? know what offends me, weiku boy? korea’s massive prostitution industry. that’s what offends me.
prostitution is about disrespect to women. moreover, their johns are on par with a stinking pile of sh*t.
you recently wrote of your troubles at a juicy bar, did you not, mr. boy?
And so it went, Amma’s little fascist climbed out of the bodega basement to debase himself online once more. The spittle-flecked mouth of the keyboard warrior curled upwards in a wry smile. THEY SHALL NOT INSULT THE KOREA! I WILL CORRECT THEIR THINK! SCHMARBLE BRGU’RKKKKK FNAAAAAAT!
Sonagi, someone lately told me that eating instant oatmeal was bad for me–is this credible? Or am I dealing with a misinformed health nut?
“you recently wrote of your troubles at a juicy bar, did you not, mr. boy?”
Not exactly. I wrote about something I’ve read about on several expat sites, collectively: that U.S. military personnel, who stand ready to give their lives for Korea, are excluded from patronizing Korea’s prostitution industry, which is, as you say, massive. Instead, they are relegated to a ghetto of juicy bars, which take advantage of their loneliness and make them spend tons of money in the hope that they might get lucky. (That last part is courtesy of, iirc, ROK Drop.)
That right there, if I choose to dwell on it, is enough to make me hate, and I mean really hate, Korea. When I consider the sacrifices the U.S. has made for this racist, xenophobic, and thoroughly ungrateful place. When I consider how women are treated generally in Korea, it makes me dislike ajosshis even more. Korea is a sick society, as you point out with your stinking pile of sh*t remark.
But it doesn’t apply to me personally. In fact, because foreigners are by all accounts excluded from Korea’s massive prostitution industry, your ilk cannot blame that particular social ill on the U.S. Yes, tacozation is offensive. Though I don’t wish to see you banned. The solution to free speech is more speech, not authoritarian control. And you, sir, are not only wrong, you are odious as well as offensive.
speaking as a korean woman and i’ve been waaay more offended at how some have expressed their feeling of being cockblocked as if the korean women are some sort of objects or, even worse, some sort of bounty that the grateful country must offer willingly than any of the possible cockblocking ajossis themselves.
‘In fact, because foreigners are by all accounts excluded from Korea’s massive prostitution industry…’
you’re dreaming. large numbers of english teachers partake in the system of prostitution that exists in korea. just cuz you’re white don’t mean you will get for free. just look what happened to matt/occidentalism. he got his blocked in seoul. and he’s australien!
‘is enough to make me hate, and I mean really hate, Korea. When I consider the sacrifices the U.S. has made for this racist, xenophobic, and thoroughly ungrateful place. When I consider how…’ wiekuboy
well, i’m glad you didn’t use the word ‘tacozation’. and i never said korea was a sick society, though it’s obvious there are some sick people there. ahem…
aaronm, if i recall correctly, you once told us what some thai prostitues told you about korean men, did you not? that’s all i need to know about you.
Pawi:
Please clarify on the “large numbers” of English teachers patronizing Korean prostitutes. Are you saying that English-teaching men, let’s say in their 30s, are more likely to patronize a prostitute than Korean men in their 30s? Or Americans teaching in Korea more likely than Americans in America? Or just that it happens alot? Please link to non-anecdotal support if possible.
#115: It’s not so much that they are excluded (it’s Korea man, if you’ve got money…), so much as the girls have found craftier ways to make money. Foreigners patronizing whore houses are one of the higher income activities by tourists, and girls seem treated pretty normally in Korea, just not enough job opportunities for the drop outs.
Anyway…I’m somewhat perplexed by your comments. Essentially… you’re incredibly angry that GI’s, none of which had anything to do with the Korean War, don’t get thrown their way free prostitutes or something because of the accomplishments of the previous generation? This is your gripe with the military treatment? Seriously… you’re that desperate for prostitutes? Yes, my wife and I…we’re so sad…my son doesn’t have prostitutes lined up for him, he’s a GI you know, so that means no social abilities, no charm, all he wishes for are prostitutes you know.
Honest to god, you kids these days are fucking retarded and I’m glad I never had to serve with any dip shits like you (assuming you had any relation with the military).
Wow, Pawi makes assumptions based on the flimsiest of evidence to form his view of individuals, if not the world. Who’d have thought it?
While that statement may be baseless, so is the one that sparked it, namely, the “foreigners are by all accounts excluded from Korea’s massive prostitution industry.” Given the relatively small number of foreigners here, I doubt they make up a substantial percentage of the clientèle, but they aren’t excluded, either, if they act appropriately, speak at least a little Korean and have the requisite amount of cash.
dry:
I have never patronized a prostitute, nor do I have any plans to. However, I find the notion that a prostitute would refuse service to me because she considered contact with me to a low debasement of herself, or because she feared being blackballed by people who find inter-racial sex offensive, to be very insulting. I believe that is Weiku Boy’s point, unless I am mistaken.
Misinformed health nut. Instant oatmeal is less nutritious than less processed forms, but no way is it bad for you.
#122 Granfalloon: yes, that was my point. Thanks.
#121 Robert: I can now no longer say “by all accounts”. Thanks.
#119 Dry: Para1: Huh? Para2: Why are you so angry? I certainly wasn’t advocating for prostitution, much less “free” prostitutes (which makes no sense, in any event). I just feel for the guys who are serving their country as strangers in a strange land. I doubt they have the free time to develop normal relationships with locals, especially in Korea where men “feel like their mother betrayed them when they see a foreign man walking with a Korean woman.” Para3: But I’ve never been in the U.S. military; maybe I have it wrong. Maybe our guys never get lonely for the female touch.
#116 Yuna: If I really believed you are a “Korean woman” I might care what you have to say “as a Korean woman.”
Well, there certainly is a(n) ( if one judges simply on the basis of the shrinkage of the base ‘villes exemplified by that in Itaewon over the past 15 years, increasingly dwindling) niche that caters to the big noses.
But the fact is its VERY small compared to the overall size of the industry in Korea and that, aside from a little slippage at the margins, most recesses of the industry are impenetrable to round-eyes and others of impure blood (no matter how good their manners or language skills) – an interesting discrepancy given the propensity of the local press to make-believe that prostitution is a problem that was foisted on innocent l’i ole Korea and persists only because of foreign patronage and the inertia of social instituions generally.
Not even close, but it is good to strive for self-improvement. Someday you may even be as coherent as wjk…
you think yuna is a man? are you serious? the lady’s got ‘woman’ written all over her posts. if she ain’t a woman, then she’s a man who wants to be a woman.
you owe her an apology.
And you owe us all an apology for boring us to tears.
It is a by-now well-known Korean face-saving device of blaming “foreign contagion” for any undesirable element of Korean society, while neglecting to credit foreign influence for the desireable elements. The self-deceit that Korean society was perfect before Western influence runs deep – it was the message of the film “Welcome to Dongmakgol.”
This shirking of responsibility is not unique to Korean society. In the US, people scapegoat politicians, bankers, Wall Street, liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, ACORN, the NYT, undocumented aliens, etc.
Blaming “others” is a convenient way to bitch about problems without taking actual responsibility for them.
A blog made you nuts? A blog?! On the big-ol’-stupid Internet?!
LOL.
Occurs to me your madness was a pre-existing condition.
Welcome back. Looking forward to your next meltdown.
‘A blog made you nuts? A blog?! On the big-ol’-stupid Internet?!’
well, it’s better than being made nuts by a country you leave because you hate it and then visit on a daily basis so you can make snide comments to those who care about the place.
how about you take a break? 씨ㅂㄴ…… (제이케이?)
i welcome you upon your return.
Interesting… an ABC News article on how China is adopting more Western cousine…
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/chinese-youth-give-chopsticks-foreign-food/story?id=8947641
Also, there is a link to an article about how there are fewer births of down syndrome babies because they are not able to diagnose it while in the womb and many parent(s) are deciding to abort.
Interesting food for thought… and I don’t mean to be controversial or anything, but suppose one can discover a test to see if a kid will be predetermined to have something that parent(s) may not like… for example will only grow to be 4-11 or be fat or…. gasp… gay… would we see more abortions?
Oh, sorry… here is the down syndrome/abortion link:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_ParentingResource/down-syndrome-births-drop-us-women-abort/story?id=8960803
People genearlly converse with others who have shared common interests or experiences. The expat experience is not surprisingly a life changing experience. Since few people have any interest of shared point of reference, is it surprising that people interact with one another at such a remarkable resource as TMH?
As expected, the comments range from glowing to factual to critical. The banter is mostly good-natured, but some opinions appear to offend people of Korean ancestry. This sometimes this leads to constructive egoless discussions that result in greater understanding, and sometimes it degenerates into ego noise.
I come here simply because I like to keep abreast of things back in Korea as well as because I enjoy the contributions of the various characters who interact here. If you don’t like what someone else writes, that’s life, really. Personally, I don’t see how it should bother or offend anyone too greatly considering (s)he’s only here for a spot of diversion. It’s when you start to take such things too seriously, that you need to get away and go find yourself.
Only X-Geners may care…
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/30/weird.al.yankovic/
Gratuitous generalization. That said, personal opinions, ipso facto, have the ability to offend, to unite, to polarize, to create empathy and understanding, inter alia, regardless of nationality or race. I personally, would like to see less racist generalizations, less nationalistic polarization and more thoughtful comments that transcend such facile and superficial constructs. In short, last national socialism and xenophobia, and more pluralism and cultural relativism please.
correction to #137…
I meant “less.”
Hey JW… maybe being North Korean will get you laid…
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_N1F0yeSxWBo/Sl3cNxCSNGI/AAAAAAAAANw/_wc5UHROoKg/s1600-h/shenanigang.jpg
Sidenote… FAIL… Manchu qípáo is NOT Korean…
Yes, I agree, 86 -“less” is definately more.
South Park and Japanese slaughtering dolphins!
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/251888
Replace dolphins with civilian Koreans and put this in 1592.
Stan Marsh is Yi Soon Shin!!!
“States Are Pondering Fraud Suits Against Banks ”
Go America Go America Go!! Get them sons of bitches!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/business/03suits.html?ref=us
The latest episode of 러브 인 아시아 has a story about a thuggish looking and sounding Busan woman married to a tall but thin and geeky looking soft sounding pushover of an Australian guy. And what is their daily life like as introduced in the show? Well, he does ALL the work — laundry, cooking, changing diapers — and she just sits around the table, eating cereal with the kids and chatting away with her friends. It’s so bad, that one of the MCs of the show jokingly asks her, just what is it that YOU do around the house? Heh heh heh.
WJK would be proud.
Ohhhhh OOOPs, my bad. She’s also pregnant with their third kid.
‘gay… would we see more abortions?’
yes. it would be the beginning of the end for gays.
“gay . . . would we see more abortions?”
I’m curious how evangelicals would react.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
I don’t know about 러브 인 아시아’s sad-sack Aussi husband, but the lazy Korean hausfrau phenom is nothing new. This is one area where the Western super-woman has it all over her over-educated, do-nothing Korean lay-about counterpart.
DLB
@133, et al. re: “…gay… would we see more abortions?”
Absolutely, and this is actually a huge (and devisive) issue in the gay community. It’s also why there’s a significant segment of the activist gay community that’s strongly against not only late-term abortions but also genetic research. In short, the thinking is that too many parents will test for a supposed “gay gene,” and if the test comes back positive, will elect to abort.
This is not that far-fetched. If parents already use gender and birth defects as the basis to abort, there’s nothing to suggest that homosexuality won’t be the next thing on the list.
Brave new world, indeed!
DLB
I’m only willing to go so far as to say that Busan peeps can get a little gangster. Heh heh. So please don’t blame me for instigating DLBarch’s crap non-sense that he seems to be able to pull out of his ass without any effort whatsoever.
Uh-oh, JW is on to me and my wiley ways. But I stand by my post – Korean hausfraus are singularly the least impressive aspect about an otherwise incredibly impressive culture. I especially like the unemployed layabout with kids in school all day who nonetheless still needs an ajumma to come in daily to “help” with the cleaning and cooking. I can think of a whole crew of former colleagues / disgruntled Korean husbands who will back me up on this.
DLB
DLB and JH,
Yes… interesting indeed. I don’t really have anything against homosexuals other then they insist that 95% of the population make special adjustments to their regular social norms to accommodate 5% of the population. Living in the state of Calfornia, sometimes I feel like it’s the tyranny of the tiny minority!
Some time in the future technology may render their population extinct. That’s not pro or anti anything. That’s just an observation.
“Tyranny”? Dude, say it ain’t so! Most of the gay attorneys and other professionals I know are, like, the most chill dudes you can image. And they throw fuckin’ awesome parties! (The hottest chicks you’ll ever meet are at gay parties, bro’.)
Of course, this is the Bay Area, so chill kinda runs in everyone’s blood, but still….
DLB
“I stand by my post-Korean hausfraus . . .”
D. L. Barch, you have post-Korean hausfraus? How did they become post-Korean?
Anyway, it must be one hell of a harem . . . but at least you stand by them despite complaints.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Uh, I’m not sure what to say. If I say to you, I can think of a bunch of rich American husbands who complain about their wives spending their hard earned money like its water, am I allowed to say that America as a cultural entity has a serious problem with its well off housewives being very ungrateful for their good fortune? Not that I’d actually say anything remotely as stupid as this, mind you.
You are confusing an “em dash”, or in this case, an “en dash,” with a hyphen. It shouldn’t be read as “post-Korean hausfraus.” Instead, follow the en dash as used by DL Barch in #151:
In Barch’s case, the en dash is correctly used as a colon — to introduce an abrupt change in thought. But b/c of how it’s justified, the en dash — or the shorter version of the em dash that is often used to demarcate parenthetical thought — can be easily confused with hyhenation. Regardless, em dashes can be achieved in MS applications simply by using CTRL + ALT + hyphen, or ALT 0151.
Evangelicals believe homosexuality is an acquired trait that can be cured, so no conflict there.
DLB,
This…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms0hugRkgv8
Just rubbed me the wrong way.
@156 Does anyone know if 8675309 also had his humor gland removed when he had his lobotomy done?
Sonagi,
So when the technology for genetic prenatal testing gets more developed, oh say 15-20 years, are you saying that the only people that are going to have kids who grow up to be homosexuals (and also Down syndrome and other typically undesirable traits) will be Evangelical couples?
Wouldn’t that be ironic…
Well… the U.S. could always make abortion illegal for gender selection and for sexual orientation… but that could cause another constituency to be upset.
The pro-choice constituency is much bigger than the gay constituency.
hey! we didn’t have korean suffragettes! we didn’t want the votes!
Just like the proverbial class clown — or a guilty person caught in a lie — people like spewer often allege humorous intentions as a cover for gross ignorance or for gaping holes in stories.
8675309 wrote:
“You are confusing an ‘em dash’, or in this case, an ‘en dash’, with a hyphen.”
Actually, I was “conflating” them, and Sperwer’s ‘allegation’ is on the mark, though for neither the “gross ignorance” nor the “gaping holes” that you allege . . . but thanks for the details on how to type em dashes. In the past, I’ve had to use two hyphens to approximate them.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
i thought 8675309 was being funny at #156 and it was sperwer who’d left his dry sarcasm detector at home today. maybe i was wrong.
JW,
I’m an equal opportunity elitist snob, bro. The Korean hausfrau with a degree from Yonsei or Ewha or SNU or whatever, or the American hausfrau with the degree from Yale or Dartmouth, are both equally the proper subject of ridicule in my book. But this is a Korean blog, so we talk about things Korean here.
If you want to make fun of those American gals who get MRS degrees from Smith or wherever, go right ahead. I’m on board. But there just still seem to be a whole lot more of them in Korea. I’m sure Sonagi or Yuna can help explain why that is, but it is.
I still stand by my post.
DLB
Possibly, Yuna. From such deep levels of irony, I sometimes get the bends upon reascent.
Perhaps 8675309 will let us know.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
i did. it’s because unlike sonagi’s great grandmothers, my great grandmothers didn’t go around campaigning for votes, because they knew back then that true happiness between a man and a woman arise when the woman controls the man from the inside and the man is subdued (bitch-whipped) (by the power of love or lust )
- no amount of studying particle physics at SNU is going to impart this primal wisdom, but maybe ewha hmmm..
Yuna,
I’m going to be a little more vulgar just for shits and giggles.
It’s called pussy power…
Was that you then whom I saw ROTFLHO at the the talk on the proper declension of the past perfect oblative at the recent congress of linguistic pedants of Middle Icelandic?
not dry enough, sperwer.
“p—-power” or 얼굴값?
DLB
@163
Someone please wake me up when 8675309 removes his pocket protector and takes off his visor and shirt cuff guards.
DLBarch, or in some cases 꼴값, that’s when you’re in real trouble
from the 43 계명 we had the other day:
잘생긴 놈은 얼굴값하고 못생긴 놈은 꼴값 한다.
have you got this guy’ s book wangkon @ #169
Wow, what a dilemma! Oh, hell, put me in the 잘생긴 놈 category and fork it over!
DLB
“If you want to make fun of those American gals who get MRS degrees from Smith or wherever, go right ahead. I’m on board. But there just still seem to be a whole lot more of them in Korea. ”
But but, forgive me if I’m being too simple here sir, as I already informed you, I wouldn’t be stupid enough to make positive assertions that negatively describe a fairly large number of people based on what *seems* to me to be the case. But let’s just assume here that you are right. Let’s say that Korea has more than its fair share of overeducated housewives sitting at home not doing anything useful. On what basis do you suppose that that the vastly larger cultural milieu that surrounds these people of high leisure can be blamed for their shortcomings? In other words, how do you know that the number of high status lazy housewives results as a function of variables that are completely separate from variables that govern the norms of the general culture?
…that *aren’t* completely separate…
Oh, goodie, a chance to deconstruct:
“I wouldn’t be stupid enough to make positive assertions that negatively describe a fairly large number of people based on what *seems* to me to be the case.”
– Of course you would, just as you resort to ad hominem attacks while hiding behind an alias. Thankfully, I’m thick-skinned.
“But let’s just assume here that you are right. Let’s say that Korea has more than its fair share of overeducated housewives sitting at home not doing anything useful.”
– Yes, let’s….
“On what basis do you suppose that that the vastly larger cultural milieu that surrounds these people of high leisure can be blamed for their shortcomings?”
– I don’t place the blame on the cultural milieu…I place the blame on the hausfraus themselves.
“In other words, how do you know that the number of high status lazy housewives results as a function of variables that are completely separate from variables that govern the norms of the general culture?”
– I don’t. You may be right…the general culture may be just as lazy as the hausfraus, but that’s a terrible thing to imply about Korea. You owe the country an apology, sir!
DLB
Cop out. Otherwise what’s the point in saying things like “there’s more of X over there than here”. What is the point in comparing numbers like immigration rates if it doesn’t in some significant way reflect immigration *policy*?
they would pray, instead of aborting, that is, if they thought that it was wrong in the first place.. religion relies heavily on aberrations for prayer topics.
Here’s what I don’t get:
If Korea (i.e., Ajosshi, Inc.) is going to continue to NOT allow women to have careers — that is to say, if Korea is going to continue to pressure (i.e., force) women to marry at 30 and have a kid and quit work at 31 — why then does it spend so much money on educating Korean girls?
From a different angle: will Korea be able to compete? if it stubbornly refuses to use (and relegates instead to the home) one of its greatest potential resources? (i.e., the creativity of its adult female population?)
increasingly, the younger generation of korean men don’t want women to be a homebody. they want women to work, and have a career. that’s why the no.1 choice for a potential bride (and bridegroom, but this is for a slightly different reason) is a school teacher…. it’s probably even better if they are a doctor or a lawyer i would imagine…
it’s a delicate balance of the men wanting to have the power/status of having a trophy wife vs not thinking there’s anything wrong being married to someone who have the feeding power for both parties if he doesn’t want to slog it – i.e. they want to have their cake and eat it too.. as there’s less and less importance placed on a concept called 내조.. has no one seen the drama 내조의 여왕?
it’s not unique to korea, but koreans tend to have most of their social phenomena polarized and trends change with sudden phase-transitions compared to the rest of the world, due to their bosonic nature..
as for the korean women being lazy, ajummas do have the feeding power. don’t you know that koreans run on 아줌마 배힘? all those 아줌마 busy weeding, cleaning, selling, doing hard shit work and saving up so that their kids do not have to do the same? i always laugh when i come back to korea and at the airport standing outside the plane are a gaggle of 아줌마s who look out of place stretching and getting ready to do their stuff (i don’t know what they do, clean?) on the plane..
i said goddamn, god, goddamn the shutter man.
The problem with this stereotype is that it is more reminiscent of social conditions in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan rather than Korea. Unlike the Arab cultures, education in Korea has always been, even before Joseon times, something that transcended class and gender. Obviously, upper class families with the resources had it easier in educating all their children regardless of gender, while lower class families with many children usually placed their bets on the eldest son. Neverthless, socioeconomic differences did not change the fact that in most Korean households from dynastical times till today, Korean mothers have held the purse strings and call the shots when it comes to the education of their children — of which girls have been included.
You misinformed comment indicates to me that you are not only confused, you are confusing Korea with muslim countries like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.
FYI, unlike conditions in muslim countries, Korean women have been free to participate in the work force, secure an education, choose a career, travel, drive a car, own property in their own name, start a business, remain single, etc. for quite some time now.
Your gratuitous generalization about Korean women is not only mistakenly applied, it suggests that you have either been out of touch with mainstream Korean society for some time now, or perhaps you have been brainwashed by some whiney and outdated tome on social conditions in Korea.
The other possibility is that you probably haven’t had the opportunity to meet a wide variety of Koreans from a broad spectrum of educational, professional and socioeconomic backgrounds — thus your narrow minded and anachronistic stereotypes.
The #1 wife choice is chemist/pharmacist. The prestige and income of a white-coat job, the power of being the boss, and the flexibility to set one’s hours to better take care of the
kiddieskid, home, and in-laws.Until a chaebol establishes a chain, slashes prices to knock off the independents, and turns ‘em into proles like most everyone else.
@ TommyTutone:
Yowza! You really informationed him. Schooled! Errr, Saudi & Turkey…same same?
The I-see-your-sweeping-generalization-of-a-country-of-50- million-and-raise-you-with-a-sweeping-generalization-of-a-world-of-1.4-billion gambit. Well played.
Shorter Jenny I Got Your Number: We treat Our women better than the Arabs treat theirs.
You are correct, sir. See the World Economic Forum’s annual ranking of rights and opportunities for women by country. Korea consistently ranks just ahead the Arab Islamic nations – and behind the rest of the planet.
Well, a society coming out of hundreds of years of Neo-Confucianism that’s to be expected a bit…
World Economic Forum’s country rankings for competitiveness Korea ranks 19th, just ahead of New Zealand at # 20 (take that kiwis!).
Strengths:
1) 11th in Macro Economic Stability.
2) 11th in (surprise, surprise!) Innovation.
3) 16th in Higher Education.
4) 17th in Infrastructure.
Weaknesses:
1) 108th labor flexibility
2) 100th in policy transparency
3) 98th in red tape
4) 92nd in labor relations
5) 90th banking sector strength
6) 67th in trust in government
http://www.weforum.org/pdf/GCR09/GCR20092010CountryHighlights.pdf
Wang Kong (re: 190):
Like I’ve often told my wife, Koreans must be really smart since they do so many things in such really stupid ways but still come out on top!
Or near the top, anyway.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
That’s what I think when I work with and/or encounter most ajosshis who grew up in the old country.
They do a few things in a very efficient and elegant way… but most of the things they do are rather messily done and inefficient. I think a lot of it has to do with superiors not caring/listening to subordinates who are closer to the problem. I blame neo-confucianism.
To their credit, Koreans work extremely hard and are dedicated to tackling a goal once they put their mind to it. Mix this all together and you get a lot of wasted work to solve simple, as well as complex, problems. Methinks they will figure it out… eventually.
Do you suppose, GS, that’s because of a propensity for fraudulent sharp dealing, and a dedication to using the latest methods of doing so, as suggested by the editorial writer of the Joongang Daily taking Korean NGOs [sic] to task not only for embezzling govt funds [please explain again what is non-governmental about an org that is funded by the govt] but, heaven forbid, doing it using obsolescent methods:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2912121
Some of the groups used digital technology to render past accounts as current transactions. One executive used a fabricated bank authorization to withdraw money and later transferred funds to his personal account. These are outdated methods.
Oops, that last paragraph should have been part of the blockquote.
Oh . . . I just realized that it’s “Wang Kon” instead of “Wang Kong”! Apologies. The “9″ fooled me into thinking that it was a “g.”
I guess that I am growing old and blind . . .
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
No worries… it’s not like I’m going to exile you to Patmos island for that…
“why then does it spend so much money on educating Korean girls?”
Marriage and Progeny.
A girl who wants a Doctor/PHD should preferably have a MSc. [but should not also be a Doctor/PHD unless from an inferior university] for making wonderful kids together…
“Korean women have been free to participate in the work force, secure an education, choose a career, travel, drive a car, own property in their own name, start a business, remain single, etc. for quite some time now.”
Weiku boy didn’t suggest any of these were out of reach, only that in mainstream few will continue in careers after having children.
Certainly mainstream is loosening up and many women want to maintain a career after marriage, and increasingly it is possible. However I would suggest you are one out of touch with mainstream Korean society if you think that korean women make up a good proportion of career professionals after child bearing.
This being the classic “education in Korea has always been, even before Joseon times, something that transcended class and gender.” followed by cancellation of you own argument “families with many children usually placed their bets on the eldest son.”
PS – before the ad hominen – I have had the opportunity to meet, and work with, a wide variety of Koreans from a broad spectrum of educational, professional and socioeconomic backgrounds.
Ron Artest of the Los Angeles Lakers basketball team shaves “Leh-Yi-Ko-Su” in hangeul into his hair…
http://twitpic.com/oanh4
Arghaeri either has A.D.D. or needs to go back to remedial reading and writing for his inability to comprehend let alone comment on my previous post. That being said, thank the gods for white knights like him and weikuboy, who’ve come to the peninsula to save disenfranchised Korean womanhood from a terribly oppressive, latte-sipping lifestyle — filled with endless overseas traveling, shopping and spa-dates with girlfriends galore — while having little or no pressure to be a dual-income earner, unlike their American counterparts who must work full-time in order to support a family of any size. And Arghaeri, unless you are Korean, I highly doubt that have had the opportunity to meet, and work with, a wide variety of Koreans from a broad spectrum of educational, professional and socioeconomic backgrounds. (That’s just the nature of being a foreigner in Korea on a temporary work visa though….)
“For a good time, call 867-5309″
For heaven’s sake, stop digging. It’s painful to watch.
You remind me of a line in a former Best Picture winner ‘A Room With a View”: “He doesn’t love you. He can’t love you. He doesn’t know what a woman IS.”
86, I liked it when you took up my message:
The racial generalizations about “white knights” is therefore ironic.
Your point in taking up the position of apologist for the lack of opportunities available to females in Korean society is unclear. Your argument appears to be that white foreigners “just don’t get” Korean culture, which is superior by virtue of the opportunities it denies its female citizens. Apologism, racial stereotyping, and wild suppositions about people you don’t know do not qualify as “thoughtful comments that transcend such facile and superficial constructs.”
“You are ignorant” is just not a valid argument. The old saw about “Korean women holding the purse strings” is tired, while referencing Korean womens’ constitutional rights is just a way of begging the question.
Your statement below was simply inaccurate and misleading:
“
That is not quite the reality of things yet. Although, as I said before, people of Korean ancestry tend to bridle at criticism of anything Korean, let’s at least keep the arguments honest.
Women are less happy.
“By many objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women’s happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women’s declining relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging — one with higher subjective well-being for men. “
Fascinating Economist piece on Japan’s dominance in technology sectors
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14793432&source=hptextfeature
Excellent article JW. Now, just change your gravitar…
Why, I love H-Mart. Ain’t taking it off till you can prove to me it really is controlled by Chun Doo hwan money.
Really?… I thought it was obvious. H-Mart kimchi is made from the blood of Gwangju protestors!
I’m also in denial about H Mart myself. Good place to shop.
I dunno, I can’t seem to find a single media source referring to the connection. If you’re a korean news reporter based either in korea or in the US, surely it would make for good scandal fodder? Did they cover up their tracks too well? Well, then how did the rumors start flying among the general population?
JW,
Koreans make up rumors like that all the time. Koreans can be the biggest haters sometimes. I’d chalk this up in the “urban legend” column for now.
Yeah, that’s what I was suggesting…ergo, HMART is my logo!!
ergo, my logo, that was totally intentional.
the book is better – i read it in my latte sipping, career-free hours to enrich my esl vocab in order to snag that perfect husband so that i don’t have to work for the rest of my several lives.
‘Japan’s technical success has its roots in old strengths. Its excellence in fine ceramics harks back to its expertise in pottery.’ economist article cited by poster
taught to them by koreans.
Taught? Taught pawi?
That would imply something voluntary. The great, uh… tech transfer of 1592-1598 was not exactly voluntary…
Ok, all together now; a one, anda two, anda three: “Thanks for the ceramics know-how, China.”
867-5309 Poor sad boy, one ad-hominen countered, then another substituted in its place. Totally unable to comment logically, following your totally fallacious references to islamic countries as if we’re unable to tell the difference. Your idiotic assertion that education was “even before Joseon times, something that transcended class and gender” totally condtradicted by your following sentence to prove that it didn’t. Education being avaialble to those who could afford it only, and priority given to men. Wow, that real transendence of class and gender.
No logical discourse is beyond you, fallacious personal attacks, full of the sweeping generalisations that you pretended to abhor but are happy to use yourself!!!
“Arghaeri either has A.D.D. or needs to go back to remedial reading and writing for his inability to comprehend let alone comment on my previous post.”
Absolutely no reference to what was not comprehended correctly, only personal attacks on my medical health and education.
“That being said, thank the gods for white knights like him and weikuboy, who’ve come to the peninsula to save disenfranchised Korean womanhood from a terribly oppressive, latte-sipping lifestyle — filled with endless overseas traveling, shopping and spa-dates with girlfriends galore — while having little or no pressure to be a dual-income earner, unlike their American counterparts who must work full-time in order to support a family of any size.”
More ad-hominen, sweeping not to mention insulting generalisations on the character of korean women. Absolutely no bearing my simple observation that korean women do not make up a good proportion of career professionals after child bearing. Exactly in what way, a simple observation on a blog, can be said to be a “White Knight” activist striving to save korean womanhood I do not know. Personally, I’m quite happy for the highly educated girls in my office to bring me tea. It does seem a bit of a waste of talent, but hey as long as I don’t have to do it.
“And Arghaeri, unless you are Korean, I highly doubt that have had the opportunity to meet, and work with, a wide variety of Koreans from a broad spectrum of educational, professional and socioeconomic backgrounds.”
There we have it the perfect korean racist ad hominen, “You are not korean, therefore you couldn’t possibly know anything meaningful” attack.
Lets see if facts can help, senior military officers, senior civil servants, entrepreneurs, lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, church ministers, biochemists, researchers, ….anyway enough about family.
As far as worked with, since your ad-hominen attacks are entirely juvenile, I would bet that if you have finished high school, you’re not even above the level of Juim yet let alone Teri. So given my professional experience in korea, it would be laughable if you came anywhere close in a pissing contest as to the “wide variety of Koreans from a broad spectrum of educational, professional and socioeconomic backgrounds” we’ve worked with.
“That’s just the nature of being a foreigner in Korea on a temporary work visa though….”. Exactly, how does this comment apply to me. NOT!!! [Moronic sweeping assumption that all native english speaking foreigners are on an E2.]
The final clincher proof of your immaturity and brainpower, but I guess that’s the nature of being a juvenile moron who thinks he’s superior just because he has a korean passport.
@ #217,
Yeah, but they still got it from the Koreans. Nothing will change that.
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