Somebody pinch me — I’m about to agree with something I read in the Hankyoreh. On Afghanistan:
Above all else, experts say that while the U.S. is in the midst of framing a new strategy for Afghanistan and some NATO nations are in the process of withdrawing troops, there is no need for South Korea to decide ahead of time to send troops. At a speech at a naval air station in Jacksonville, Florida, U.S. President Barack Obama said he would not rush the solemn decision of whether to send troops down a dangerous path.
Combat troops to Afghanistan would have made sense five years ago. Now, I’m not even sure if the United States should continue operations in Afghanistan, let alone having Korea come along for the ride.
{ 54 comments… read them below or add one }
Afghanistan’s history is littered with the corpses of their invaders; Greeks, Indians, Mongols, British, Russians … now the US. Without Iraq, the US had a slim chance of making a real difference. Now none.
Get out, seal their borders from the outside and leave them alone.
Hard to believe that’s a considered Hani position and not their stock stance on everything US, conveniently pegged to Obama’s deliberations.
“Combat troops to Afghanistan would have made sense five years ago.”
How, exactly?
Also, waaaay back in 2002-03 conservatives condescended to inform us that the U.S. was perfectly capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time, i.e. fighting successful wars there and in Iraq. Thus, we have had combat troops there — not just in the last five years but during the last eight years — and not just a few but rather more than enough to win (whatever “win” means in the context of Afghanistan). So said the folks on your team. THEY chose to send U.S. troops ‘down a very dangerous path” eight years ago, and then again a year and a half later in Iraq; and anyone who questioned their wisdom was labeled a fool, a traitor, and an appeaser.
Glad to see you starting to come around to the correct position, though.
I guess now that it’s Obama’s war, it’s OK to finally be against it.
They don’t call it “The Graveyard of Empires” for nuthin’.
Why didn’t we just concentrate all our power on Tora Bora, kill or bring to trial Osama bin Laden (for crimes he was never charged with, by the way), and leave? The 9/11 attacks were planned in Kuala Lumpur and Mohammad Atta lived in Hamburg, but we didn’t feel the need to invade Malaysia or Germany. Why are we still there? We do we care?
We have two big oceans between us and the Dar-al-Islam. Why not just stop taxing my parents to prop up Middle Eastern tyrannies like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Israel and leave them alone so that they’ll leave us alone?
We should “steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world” as our first president suggested and promote “peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none” as did our third.
Maybe that’s why Alexander the Great married an Afgan…
That makes too much sense, Western Confucian. No Democrat or Republican will ever buy it.
Western Confucian. Do you really think that AIPAC will let the US get out of any entangling alliances? Ever wonder why the US spends so much time fretting over Iran, a signatory of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, while Israel, which never bothered to sign the NPT, gets a free pass even as it was the country that originally provided the motivation for a nuclear arms race in the Middle East by introducing the weapons to the region.
Ever look at the profiles of the neocons? You will be surprised to find one thing in common with nearly all of them. I think I’d better stop before the Anti-defamation league sues me for daring to suggest that the interests of the United States are different from the those of the foreign power with which the US is entangled in an alliance.
And the anti-semitism begins! Now I know all I need to know about Kim SuBok.
DLB
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right…
hani prints 콜러. now i we know what 콜러 looks like ^^
btw. i found out about it via daum 깜짝뉴스 that’s going to get a lot of reads..i apologize for some of the 댓글s in advance..i read 30 so far and have found the one or two which is skeptical of anyone “waxing lyrical” of korea in a bad way.
btw shame on you. to get in the headline with “promoting dog-eating” …tsk tsk tsk.
i meant they are skeptical in a bad way (a la korean xenophobic netizen) of anyone waxing lyrical of korea
I say put a bunch of contracted North Korean troops in Afghanistan, take away all the cameras, give them two years and see what they can accomplish…
Machiavelli once said that you either need to be very nice or very cruel with occupied territory. The “in the middle” stuff doesn’t work in war… Americans are very good with half assed shit when it comes to combating guerrilla warfare. The last people to bulldoze through Afghanistan were the Mongols. Guess which policy they adopted?
I say these things knowing that none of it will be adopted…
DLB-
What exactly does “anti-semitism” mean, anyway? Does it mean collective punishment for the Palestinians in Gaza who are themselves semitic? Or does it mean breaking the taboo of questioning America’s relationship with Israel, a nation run by Ashkenazis who are certainly less semitic than the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation?
It seems that “anti-semitism” has lost all meaning as it is used not to describe people who are actually against Semitic peoples, but instead to intimidate those who question whether an Israeli-US “special relationship” actually benefits the United States.
I for one am against no people. Rather, I am against policies that are fundamentally unfair, and therefore not in the interest of the United States.
KimSuBok, you’re someone to watch.
#13 = classic sophistry
Slim, there are all kinds of sophistry. The kind that simply raise questions (as long as they’re not overly simplistic leading questions) are generally more benign than the kind that just spins on circular logic, which is what one generally finds.
16. Agree up to a point, but imagine having 15 minutes with Obama to make the case against sending more US troops to Afghanistan. Would you go in with trite, shopworn Jewish conspiracy theories? And then when eyes start to roll or you get called on that nonsense, defend that line with the equally trite semantic dodge about semitic peoples? Even in less important places like the Marmot’s Hole, that’s more an insult of readers’ intelligence than a productive use of anyone’s time I’d say.
Lol, no I would not, but I also would not need to. Remember that Obama is someone who has raised the same questions. Relating to Middle Easterners as actual human beings has been much heralded. Considering the pervasiveness of anti-Arab prejudice in the West, it has been long overdue.
That said, the realpolitic of Afganistan leads me to expect that Obama will send in more troops. Hope I’m wrong for a change.
It is indeed interesting that no one made an effort to define “anti-semitism” for me. Is it really that hard to do? If you are going to accuse someone of “anti-semitism” shouldn’t we at least be clear what such an accusation means? If not, doesn’t this simply amount to an ad hominem attack meant to impugn my character?
Why then don’t you answer the question? Accusations of sophistry are likewise an effort to distract from the important issues that I raised. That is, the United States must look after its own interests before those of other nations. If we are willing to entertain the idea that it may no longer be in the interests of the US to maintain the status quo of its postwar relationship with Korea, why aren’t we equally willing to examine the relative merits of maintaining relationships with other US allies? To merely resort to the emotive label of “anti-semite” without even addressing the issues discussed smacks of an unscrupulous trial lawyer who asks “How long has it been since you stopped beating your wife?”
Please let’s be honest and openly address the issue. How does the continued US-Israel alliance advance US interests in a world with a rapidly shifting balance of power from West to East? In a world where the US is losing clout? Where the US has a massive imbalance in trade with the rising powers? Where the dollars is continuing to lose strength? At what point does the US set aside the alliances it is a party to in order to address these mounting problems? If I am wrong in thinking that the alliance with Israel does not advance US interests, please set me straight in an intellectually honest way. I am willing to listen.
Do not, however, label me with an epithet you are unwilling to define.
I leave you with an exerpt from George Washington’s farewell address of 1796 where he warned of the dangers of foreign entanglements.
Let’s try that again.
Alas, that was before the military industrial complex.
WangKon936
“Maybe that’s why Alexander the Great married an Afgan”
You mean Rosario Dawson is an Afghan?
Israel simply does not have any bearing on Obama’s debate about US troop levels for Afghanistan, let alone on this thread’s topic of KOREAN troops for Afghanistan. If you could snap your fingers and make the Zionist Entity disappear tomorrow, the Taliban would still be trying to violently take over Afghanistan and Pakistan and Mullah-ruled Iran would still be a regional and aspiring global menace and a curse upon its own people. Ditto al Qaeda. The European countries that curry favor with the Arabs by holding Israel at arm’s length or worse have been no less vulnerable to Islamist violence.
Anti-semitism, we all surely know, has two usages: the etymologically accurate antipathy to all Semitic peoples and the common usage of anti-Jewish. I have to assume DL Barch was using the latter and (to me at least) it seems to be a disingenuous dodge to defend a position using the technical definition, even if that was not Kim Subok’s intention.
George Washington had the luxury of living in less complicated times.
the Taliban would still be trying to violently take over Afghanistan
So.
Pakistan and Mullah-ruled Iran would still be a regional and aspiring global menace and a curse upon its own people.
“Global” is a stretch. And there’s no reason why it would necessarily be “a curse upon its own people.” It could just as well be a great boon, as regional power status may result in better terms of trade with some countries, more economic activity, etc.
The European countries that curry favor with the Arabs by holding Israel at arm’s length or worse have been no less vulnerable to Islamist violence.
They also have very open borders and allow thousands of Arabs and Muslims to immigrate. They concentrate in enclaves and don’t/can’t assimilate in many respects.
It could just as well be a great boon, as regional power status may result in better terms of trade with some countries, more economic activity, etc.
You’re correct, but the key word is “Mullah-ruled”. Iran is a regional power already but won’t be a trusted or respected or even competent one until it sheds Islamic theocratic dictatorship.
Alas, this is a good deal of the problem — the terrorists we need to worry about aren’t in Kabul. They’re in Colorado, Dallas, New York, London and other places closer to home.
You’re correct, but the key word is “Mullah-ruled”. Iran is a regional power already but won’t be a trusted or respected or even competent one until it sheds Islamic theocratic dictatorship.
No.
Qualify your sloppy statements and reasoning.
No nation ever completely trusts another nation. And respect is also a function of power and fear.
It’s likely that Iran won’t be “trusted or respected” by, say, the US, Israel, the Saudis, etc. But there’s no reason why other regional powers such as China and Russia wouldn’t necessarily trust and respect it. And the US (and other anti-Iran nations) may just come around to “trust” and “respect” Iran if forced to by the circumstances, that is if, or rather as, the former declines in relative power and if the latter is able to develop nuclear weapons or something.
There’s no reason to believe that it must shed its “Islamic theocratic dictatorship” in order to become “competent.” And while it does have an ominous sounding “Supreme Leader,” it would be mistaken to simplistically characterize it as a “dictatorship.”
KimSuBok, I’m with you all the way. I know exactlly who these neocon Israel Firster traitors are.
Before we exclude anything from the equation, what exactly is the mission in Afghanistan, slim?
I guess you missed that whole election kerffufle thingie, then, ’cause that pretty much told us what we need to know about the nature of the regime — even accepting the complexity of things there.
I draw a distinction between the nation of Iran from their current government.
and their current government
I must say, though, I do find the obsession with Israel to be fascinating. It seems to me of our alliances in the Middle East, our alliance with Israel is by far the least repulsive. At least I don’t have to hold my nose with them — or the Turks, for that matter — like I do with the Saudis, Egyptians, Iraqis, Pakistanis and Afghans.
I point out the folly of dragging Israel into a conversation about Afghanistan and I’m an “Israel Firster Traitor”?
Put your head back in the sand, the place that world view of yours requires it to be, Joshua!
The “obsession” goes both ways, supporters and detractors.
You didn’t “point out the folly of dragging Israel into a coversation about Afghanistan” – you simply asserted it. However, until we can be sure what the mission is in Afghanistan, can isolate Israel from the equation?
Since the Taliban and drug lords did not cause 9/11, and Al Kaida is now in Pakistan, why is the US at war with them? The NYT calls it an “Aimless War”, even an “aimless absurdity”:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1865730,00.html
Since the mission is no longer Al Kaida, is the real strategy to establish stability in the region by preventing the rise of another anti-American, anti-Israeli, pro terrorist state? Aren’t the security concerns of the US and Israel intricately linked?
Is it perhaps
I guess you missed all the facts about “that whole election kerfuffle thingie.” You must make all your judgments based on hyped up CNN and Fox News video clips. That pretty much tells us what we need to know about your opinions.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/14/AR2009061401757.html
I watch neither Fox nor CNN (TV is a lightweight way to get news in most cases, even the BBC) and note that those pollsters’ piece was and remains widely disputed. In any event, I was referring to the shootings and rapes in the streets by Iran’s poor misunderstood non-dictatorship.
Deal with the world the way it is, not the way you wish it would be.
Silly me: I thought all this emotional ranting by the Euro left and their imitators elsewhere was supposed to abate when Bush moved back to Texas.
Well you just confirmed my point that you seem to “make all your judgments based on hyped up CNN and Fox News video clips.” Since you claim not to watch Fox or CNN, I guess you can substitute “hyped up CNN and Fox News video clips” with “hyped up news articles and Youtube videos.”
Deal with the world the way it is, not as the way it’s sensationalized in the media.
Wow, I had no idea I was imitating the “emotional ranting by the the Euro left.”
Silly me: I thought I was being right wing. I guess supporting interventionism, internationalism, the spread of liberal democracy, “human rights,” “women’s rights,” “gay rights,” urban revolutionaries, secularism, globalism, etc., is considered right wing these days.
@mkaplan:
What are your sources of information about what is happening in Iran and around the world?
The Marmot’s Hole blog aggregator, of course.
No, really, mkaplan. Inquiring commenters want to know which hyped up TV broadcasters, online media, and Youtube videos shape your understanding of the world.
I provided a link to one such source above.
Note, however, that the information therein has never been hyped. Most Americans aren’t even aware of such information. All they “know” is that a scary looking, crazy, Middle Eastern man with a long, weird, funny sounding name is “the next Hitler” who wants to nuke and kill Jews and Americans, and that the “evil” Iranian regime is against “freedom,” ’cause, you know, they saw the protesters demonstrate and clash with the police and stuff on TV.
sonagi, wapo is one see #37.
funny how if you actually looked at what each argument is based – slim is upset at us-israel being dragged into this thread because he thinks it does not have much place in the discussion of us-afghan stance – i.e. each us foreign policy implemented in each region is not (so) connected and can be isolated, whereas kimsubok is basing his let’s butt out and ease up on the intervention in general argument, is based on the no-man-is-an-island argument…it’s almost like their arguments support each other’s case.
i think the word anti-semitism had no place in this thread, but having thought about it, that word alone could actually explain the whole lot, this thread, that thread, all threads.
So you like the Washingon Post. Me, too. I read it every morning at breakfast. What else do you read or listen to, mkaplan?
even sadam, had his supporters in iraqi people, and by that i mean the everyday iraqi people who mainly thought that the west was being unfair. probably the same in iran.. the outside media’s one-sided portrayal of victimized people “under regime” sometimes has the something of the opposite desired effect – driving up this support..
the media would do better to acknowledge this support and address the fundamental issue behind the rise of such *dictatorships* at all, and most probably you don’t get this on the fox news.
but you don’t get it on bbc either, i must add, especially when it comes to mugabe.
Sonagi, just get it over with and get his email address…
When did Yuna stop pretending to be a Korean chick and start pretending to understand world events?
Soooo……skip the snit fest. Entangling alliances profit someone….WHO? Who profits from war (and in what ways)? Ask them why we are still there. Fuck your personal, and insignificant, political proclivities.
Also….ask “Them” why “They” haven’t allowed the capture or killing of Bin Laden. Really. We couldn’t take a coupla hunnert thousand GI’s through the mountains of the empire killer and flush the prick out? I’ll bet it’s more profitable to chase ghosts.
Indeed, wookinponub. While some fools are busy arguing over where they get their news, what are the real questions?
You can probably find them somewhere between Fox news and conspiracy theory. I don’t believe 3 comma money runs everything down to the minutest detail, but they sure can sieze an opportunity and run with it.
#49 that would be since you stopped pretending to be korean to let people think you’re not of korean ethnicity when actually you are, i say it’s just as dishonest as your first attempt.
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