ATEK has been working on refuting a claim by GNP lawmaker Lee Gun-hyeon that crimes by foreign English teachers are “serious”:
Rep. Lee Gun-hyeon of the Grand National Party recently published statistics from the National Police Agency involving crimes by foreign English teachers.
Lee stressed that these crimes have emerged as a social issue, escalating the anxiety of students and parents, who are calling for a stricter verification system to root out unqualified teaching candidates.
Lee also suggested criminal information should be made public to ensure students are not exposed to additional crimes.
To which ATEK replied:
The Association for Teachers of English in Korea (ATEK) countered the lawmaker’s claim. Dann Gaymer, communications director of the association, told The Korea Times Thursday that Lee’s comments don’t make sense and that they are making foreign English teachers look like the “enemy.”
[...]
In a press release, ATEK maintained that the statistics do not justify the claim that teacher crime is at a serious level, given that in 2008 there were 19,771 foreigners registered on E-2 visas.“We find Rep. Lee’s accusation very troubling. As we are an association of foreign teachers in Korea, any accusation against the foreign teacher community is an attack against our members by default,” said ATEK president Greg Dolezal, adding the foreign English teacher crime rate of 0.64 percent was more than five times less than the 3.5 percent among Koreans in 2007 and half the rate of other foreigners.
To which Rep. Lee’s office replied:
Regarding the complaints by the native English speakers, Hong Seok-in, chief staff of Rep. Lee’s office said the lawmaker focused on the kinds of crimes rather the frequency when he used the word “serious.” “There are various sorts of crimes. Especially, using drugs and committing sexual violations at schools are very serious compared to other simple crimes,” Hong said.
I suppose this is in contrast to committing sexual violations around schools, which reportedly isn’t very serious. But I digress.
The Department of Immigration jumps into the fray:
A director from the Seoul Immigration Office said there are also many criminal cases that are not recorded in the data. He said one foreign English teacher was caught having sex with a minor but was not prosecuted as the minor did not want to press the case.
Ooo… racially and sexually charged rumor-mongering. I love it!
Anyway, read the rest on your own.
{ 67 comments… read them below or add one }
I know a lot of people on this site are down on English teachers and Korean society in general despises them, but these accusations seem a bit unfair.
What is the obsession this country has with English teachers? They are small and meaningless group in terms of Korean society.
Korean society in general does not despise English teachers. And the country isn’t obsessed with them. Most people don’t care about them, except if you’ve got money and you’re looking for people to teach your kids or they make news getting busted for doing something stupid.
As an additional note, the issue of foreign English teachers also dovetails into the much more important issue of the government’s English education policies. So there are political factors at work, too. Although Rep. Lee’s concern, I believe, dealt more with law enforcement.
Coincidentally, a statistic I’d be keen to see is how foreign English teachers stack up vis-a-vis Korean educational professionals in terms of crime.
So they didn’t press charges because she was enjoying herself?
It is extremely rude for ATEK to try to get facts all mixed up with Rep. Lee Gun-hyeon’ truthiness. How gauche can you be to quote statistics when everybody knows that unreported or missing data actually supports their point of view anyway.
Rep. Lee Gun-hyeon use to be an English Teacher for many years at a high school. Sigh!
@ 2, I would say 98% of the time English teachers are discussed, Koreans have something negative or belittling to say, which leads me to believe society is not too fond of them. I am surprised anybody would try to refute that.
When you consider their relatively small numbers compared to Koreans as well as other groups in Korea and then the large amount of gov’t, news, and TV coverage they get, it sure seems like some sort of unhealthy interest that deserves some thought.
Nice Picture of Dann Gaymer.
I am sure he has the Sally Anne look down to a tee.
ATEK are idiots.
Compare this diatribe to what Grand National Party lawmaker Park Young-ah and Democratic Party lawmaker Choi Young-hee from the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology say about Korean teachers who commit sexual abuse in the school system and are given nothing more than a slap on the wrist (link here). Needless to say, the really serious crimes are committed by Koreans.
Lee Gun-hyeon is simply engaging in politics at the expense of foreign teachers, who are simply pawns.
I really don’t get the obsession over 20,000 people either. Sometimes what I read about foreign English teachers just seems so disconnected from the reality of my day-to-day job. I guess we are strongly connected to a billion-won industry, but it just seems odd that certain Koreans are so interested in our social lives but neither know nor care how effective we actually are in the classroom. I can only imagine what motivates them.
PS If Representative Lee was an English teacher I’d be very interested to find out how good his English is and if he knows a single thing about communicative TEFL theory and practice.
ATEK just wants attention and they will get their attention from South Korean government. Which going to be rainy day for ATEK. More ATEK counter attacks government the more they will face scrutiny. Korean government know how to manipulate the situation and they will always win. Stupid ATEK members are not going to get what they wanted rather they will get more “bad looks” for standing up against to current South Korean government. Because of this, the next Korean government will probably remove ATEK, and won’t be pretty sight.
“Among the 124 reported sexual crimes involving [Korean] educators between 2006 and May 2009, only 21 resulted in a firing or dismissal.”
!!!!!!!!
Chiamattt it’s clear based on this;
http://www.chiamattt.com/photo/index.php?showimage=157
that you are feigning outrage to cover your tracks.
!!!!!!!
I won’t go as far as Iwshim, but I do want to offer some unsolicited advice to Mr. Gaymer (yes, but is he a Player?):
PR-101 teaches that if you are the communications director of ANY respectable organization in Korea and you are going to release a a photo of yourself to the media, please take the time to shave, and wear a button-up shirt with a tie and suit jacket.
For heaven’s sakes man! You expect ATEK to be taken seriously?
Is there any link between any physical characteristic like National Origin and type of crime? Are Canadians more likely to be vegetarians? Are Italians more likely to eat pasta?
#hamel.
Innit. He looks like he’s just climbed off a Bangkok prostitute.
Also: Don’t use the red-eye correction tool on Photoshop. It’s totally obvious.
@ 12, 13, 14
chiamattt, KrZ … thanks for the porn. im off to commit some crimes now.
KrZ …
mental note: no clicky on KzZ name while at work
I’d be interested to see if there’s any truth behind Chief of Staff Hong Seok-in’s assertion that the types of crimes committed by English teachers all belong in the ‘serious’ category. I’d be particularly interested to see how many are sexual offenses, which I’m sure we’d all agree are very serious, and how many fall merely under ‘dope smoking idiocy’. It wouldn’t be surprising if most or even all are in the latter category, since they certainly like to get as much mileage as they can out of insinuation and/or isolated instances in the Korean media – but the facts would be good to know.
As for the director from Seoul Immigration saying many cases are unreported, the obvious comeback is the same is true of the Korean population.
if you write things like this, sure Koreans aren’t dumb. They know who to point fingers at.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/South_Korea
Are you suggesting, wjk, that witless, anodyne satire should be dealt with via legislation and demonization in the media?
@21
wjk, don’t be a petty bitch. and more importantly, don’t suggest that Koreans in general are petty bitches.
you did it to yourselves.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3743338&page=1
as an adult, with the superpower to read into things, I think I know why things went the way they did.
1/ Lynching in the south. White men got upset about white women either sleeping with black men with consent or rape. Talking about ‘petty bitches’.
2/ Discrimination against white men in East Asia. Obviously sex is involved. Korean men got upset about Korean women/children either sleeping with white men with consent or rape.
There are a lot of things they won’t say out loud in school.
Christ, what an embarassing picture.
Hong Seok-in, chief staff of Rep. Lee’s office said the lawmaker focused on the kinds of crimes rather the frequency when he used the word “serious.”
Either way, Rep. Lee, Gun-hyeon and/or Hong, Seok-in/Chief Staff of Rep. Lee’s Office are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
Yu BumSuk: I would say Rep. Lee Gun-hyeon of the Grand National Party(Former High School English Teacher for many years) doesn’t know much about Co-Teaching. If he was my C0-Teacher he’d probably offer non-constructive criticism by saying…”Your class is boring.” Which would be a perfect example of a simple mind, can anyone tell me what’s wrong with such a statement?
About Dan’s Photo, a picture doesn’n make a man. Neither does a shirt and tie. I think Dan wrote a fine piece here…
http://stafford.squarespace.com/journal/2009/10/13/atek-crime-statistics-prove-foreign-teachers-are-being-misre.html
What’s funny is that I’d bet Dan gets more “handsome” comments on a daily/weekly/monthly basis than any of those that attacked his appearance. Jealousy gets you NOWHERE!
“Korean society in general does not despise English teachers. And the country isn’t obsessed with them. Most people don’t care about them…”
Okay, so only the Korean Media(which of course has Zero affect on Korean society), Lawmakers, and the stalking Anti- English(Teacher) Spectrum group which consists of some thousands of Koreans are obsessed with them, Come down from CLOUD NINE Robert!
Robert is not on cloud nine. He simply said Koreans in general don’t despise you guys and aren’t obsessed with you guys. It’s true. If you existed here in a capacity other than as a teacher, you’d probably be able to see that. Robert is speaking as a long-term Korean resident with language skills and 10+ years of experience learning about Korea and their people.
That being said, your reputation, from my observations amongst my Korean friends and colleagues is unfairly low, and often in-line with the unflattering news stories. Sad but true.
“cmm”
“That being said, your reputation, from my observations amongst my Korean friends and colleagues is unfairly low, and often in-line with the unflattering news stories. Sad but true.”
Ha ha ha!!! How the hell do you or your friends know whether I’m a criminal, drug fein, or Korean female raper?
@25
First off, wjk, the only superpower you could possibly have would be via your little citizens on Starcraft.
Now, it gets boring listening to your same few lines of reasoning on whites and race. Yeah, 60 years ago there were lynchings on some scale. Before that there was slavery. Nowadays the more affluent of the white people like to live in safe, comfy suburbs (your favorite thing to draw accusing conclusions about). Big deal bodega boy.
Now specifically about your comment in #25.. what does the fact that some of the white Americans’ grandfathers and great-grandfathers were quite racist by today’s standards have to do with me and you? It’d be quite interesting if you were judged by your great-grandfather’s take on the world, wouldn’t it.
and for your retarded #24 “you did it to yourselves…” with the picture of that pedophile. Is it reasonable that you… a Korean student in the USA, start getting treated like you are Cho Seung-Hui? And if this happens, how about when you complain about it, some whiteboy says to you, “you did it to yourselves…” How would you like them apples?
I don’t expect an intelligent, coherent, direct response to this, as you normally ignore my challenging questions when answering would self-defeating for you. 당신도 꺼져^^
I thought, according to the Korea Times, that ‘Sex With Minor Not Crime If Not Forced’:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/07/113_47771.html
Foreign English teachers as a concept are often mentioned in the media in articles pertaining to English education in neutral terms, but most articles which mention foreign English teachers as actual people are articles about (mostly) drug arrests or molestation (4 reported cases in the last three years, though – of those four – the guy arrested in February this year had his case dropped for lack of evidence:
http://news.kbs.co.kr/article/society/200907/20090703/1804152.html
(I love the title of that article – it’s clearly influenced by Anti English Spectrum).
“Ha ha ha!!! How the hell do you or your friends know whether I’m a criminal, drug fein, or Korean female raper?”
Well, I don’t know if you are or not.
Maybe I wasn’t clear. I meant, simply, that to many of my coworkers, that’s your reputation. Reputation. Look it up 강사 님. Several of my coworkers, past and present, young and old, have described ESL teachers in a manner similar to the bad news stories to me and I’ve heard them discussing it amongst themselves–not to the point of obsessing, just occasionally when it came up that many of my friends are of the ESL teaching ilk. I usually say something to defend you guys. Usually.
By the way, here are charts breaking down the crime stats, brought to you by Anti English Spectrum:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_lxap4y0S1as/StgQqsB3pNI/AAAAAAAAFTI/m_7h6DI-B0Q/s1600-h/20091011+9862+e2+crime+stats+a.jpg
Those charts were not printed in the original Yonhap article, so I’m not sure if AES got them from the media or from Rep. Lee’s office.
One thing to note is how many crimes are under the category of ‘other’. It would be nice to know what those are.
If I had to guess, perhaps visa violations? Degree forgery usually comes under 지능범.
Can’t say I expected so many assault arrests. On a positive note, though, at least no rapes this year so far.
I’d still be keen to see how this stacks up against Korean educational professionals.
safe in a suburb from who?
Black people?
Black people in major cities aren’t in suburbs.
I want to make it perfectly clear that
I have never played Starcraft.
Not once.
When Starcraft began, I had many things to read that were
—printed.
In case you haven’t noticed, THIS is my starcraft.
I can’t be everywhere all at once, now.
since you started it, here goes again.
suburbia took off because politicians forced white people to have black people take up spaces such as Brooklyn, Harlem, Compton.
white people post world war II started driving a hell of a lot more. Sustaining suburbia was auto world.
do you realize how much a sin this is to mother earth?
Robert,
Here are stats for Korean teachers from 2003-2004:
http://www.ohmynews.com/NWS_Web/View/at_pg.aspx?CNTN_CD=A0000282133
Lots of driving offences. I’m not sure what the total number of teachers would have been then, in order to get a crime rate. I imagine it’s lower than foreign teachers by quite a bit, but I also imagine they get away with a lot more – not that hagwons don’t just fire problem foreign teachers – or Korean teachers for that matter – to make the problem go away instead of involving the law and risking a bad reputation. I wonder if stats are even kept on Korean hagwon teacher crime. There’s probably quite a bit there as well, though as a group I don’t think their morality is focussed on like Korean teachers or foreign English instructors.
“cmm,”
“Maybe I wasn’t clear. I meant, simply, that to many of my coworkers, that’s your reputation. Reputation. Look it up 강사 님. Several of my coworkers, past and present, young and old, have described ESL teachers in a manner similar to the bad stories to me and I’ve heard them discussing it amongst themselves–not to the point of obsessing, just occasionally when it came up that many of my friends are of the ESL teaching ilk.”
That’s right, you weren’t clear and now it sounds like you’re on both side of the fence. You blindly defend Robert by saying he’s not on cloud nine. The reason I suggested that he is, is because I feel Koreans generally do care about English Teachers and are at least somewhat obsessed. Some lawmakers certainly are and they represent the Korean people. The Korean people don’t say shit when stupid Korean lawmakers defame English Teachers. Hell, Korean employers don’t say shit when the media defames their employees. Go figure, Korean employers love to hate their Waygookin employees too.
Robert must have forgotten that he once said “English Teachers get paid too much money,” so ALL English Teachers got money according to him and if you compare English Teachers average income to the Korean average income then yes, English Teachers ALL have money(JEALOUSY brings on HATE which brings on OBSESSION).
Now, Robert is making it sound as though it would be an exception for English Teachers to have money by saying Korean don’t care about English Teachers “unless” English Teachers have money(as though more English Teachers than not don’t have money). So Robert, which is it?
I alone once discussed Korean Teachers with a group of almost 10 Korean men and they said…”Koreans hate English Teachers.” One man said it, the others didn’t disagree but they were all listening closely. I didn’t need them to tell me that since I usually feel the hate regularly enough.
cmm, first you agree with Robert that Koreans aren’t obsessed and/or that it would be an exception if they did care about us. One exception being if English Teachers have money.
Now, you explain that your past/present/young/old Co-Workers…”have described ESL teachers in a manner similar to the bad stories to me and I’ve heard them discussing it amongst themselves…”
Therefore, they think about English Teachers in the same way the typical Korean thinks/feels, aye?
I wouldn’t expect your Co-Workers to show their obsession at work would you?
cmm, don’t get caught on the top of the fence!
Robert, I think you got caught on top of the fence too. “English Teachers don’t have money” or “English Teachers got too much money.”
tbonetylr — Take a deep breath, relax and rewrite what you’ve written so I can understand what it is, exactly, that you are asking.
BTW, just curious — is there a reason why you capitalize the “t” in English “T”eacher?
<blockquote<wjk:"you did it to yourselves."
In fact, the anti-foreign national inferiority compex was already in full display before the influx of English teachers to Korea.
There is a kernel of rerverse truth in the statement of our misguided younger brother, however. Korean kyopo, a cohort about which there was formerly no particular impression in the US, have increasingly been earning their own bad reputation. I became aware of this a few years back when I overheard snippits of conversation among students, teachers and others in the NYC area. At first I was rather shocked at this since the same attitudes did not extend to other populous Asian nationalities such as Japanese, Chinese, Filipino or Vietnamese.
Considering that in comparison to minorities in the US, foreigners in Korea still represent a very miniscule population that few have any direct experience with, it is obvious that they have been unfairly scapegoated for socio-political reasons, much like undocumented Mexicans the US. Given the discrepency in the statistics and the general perception, this phenomenon is indicative of an emotional issue that is in fact rooted in the Korean racial identity complex. Nothing more, nothing less.
as much as i hate to give you the attention you so crave from me…mmm i think it’s just indicative of bullshit with wordplay complex by some, nothing more nothing less..
earning bad reputation by their own accord, yup. sounds exactly like what the koreans say about the english teachers.
gold.
and the same they say vice versa.
of not by. these damn esl speakers.
“A director from the Seoul Immigration Office said there are also many criminal cases that are not recorded in the data. ”
Probably true. But is the non-report rate of allegations against foreigners higher or lower than it is for Koreans? Probably the same, which makes it still true that the crime rate by Korans is higher than crime rate by foreign teachers.
You don’t say…
However, it would be category error to link the two instances without presuming an analogous sociocultural context which I have disproven in # 40. While it is indisputable of Korean kyopo, with foreign expats, it is in fact ex post facto rationalization.
Context is all. Focusing on the representations you are attempting to dispute is a prerequisite to a coherent response.
It’s pretty amusing that wjk got trolled by uncyclopedia. How stupid do you need to be to fail to realize that EVERY country on uncyclopedia is lampooned mercilessly, and less amusingly that on ED I might add?
WJK why do your posts always go back to black people versus white people even when it has nothing to do with the subject matter.
you guys are white, for the most part. you want to tell koreans this is racist. cmm said suburbia is a matter of safety.
it’s on topic.
I view uncyclopedia as a blanket cover to pretend someone is insane, and actually releasing what they truly wanted to vent about. The section on ‘asian chicks’ is no doubt written by a white person.
and this is more consistent with mental retardation than anything else.
Thats the problem, you view uncylopedia. That should have been the ringer right there. Uncyclopedia is not affiliated with any of the English teachers in Korea, nor do they have stock in it. Uncyclopedia makes fun indiscriminately. Not just of Korea.
Acropolis, when you get to arguing with that troll, don’t think logic will help you.
It is absolutely stunning to me the ridiculous frenzy an entire nation has worked itself up into over having to learn a second language. Entire villages around the world have been wiped out in plagues, earthquakes, genocidal purges and tsunamis, and it has gone off with less scapegoating and bellyaching than Korea puts up over learning English. I would not believe such a farcical situation could exist if I weren’t witnessing it firsthand.
Couldn’t WJK post off-topic material in the open thread?
“suburbia took off because politicians forced white people to have black people take up spaces such as Brooklyn, Harlem, Compton.
white people post world war II started driving a hell of a lot more. Sustaining suburbia was auto world.”
Explain suburbia in Canada or Australia.
Robert( Mr. thinks he KNOWS IT ALL ABOUT english Teacher), can’t you finger it out?
In your # 2 post “Korean society in general does not despise English teachers. And the country isn’t obsessed with them. Most people don’t care about them, except if you’ve got money…”
Another words, english Teachers i.e. “except” don’t have money.
Yet in one of your past diatribes you write…
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/02/25/english-teachers-and-korean-discrimination-in-lat/
“Not to put too fine a point on this, but English teachers get paid too well, have too much fun, bitch way too much and engage in too much nonsense (which invariably ends up in the news) while employed in an industry that wastes entirely too many resources while providing little of value for me to really feel that sorry for them…”
Finger it out, you suggest english Teachers don’t have money on this post but a few months ago said english Teachers “get paid too much.” So which is Mr. KNOW IT ALL?
Mr. tbonetylr (#55), could you clarify the contradiction that you see in Robert’s two statements? The first quote that you post is actually a bit longer in the original than what you’ve posted:
“Most people don’t care about them [i.e., English teachers], except if you’ve got money and you’re looking for people to teach your kids”
The “you” in “you’ve” would be the same as the “you” in “you’re,” and I take it that Robert is referring to Koreans who have money and are looking for native speakers of English to teach their kids.
Whether or not English teachers are paid too well is another issue. Some might be, for there are Koreans who have plenty of money and are looking for native speakers of English to teach their kids, but on the other hand, that’s the logic of this Korean marketplace driven by the Korean obsession with English test scores, and who are we to argue with the laws of the marketplace?
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
God, I hope you’re not an English teacher, tbonetylr. Sheesh…
Ew! I’m not going to visualize what that involves.
Robert, I actually have to wonder if Mr. tbonetylr is writing a parody of how an offended-but-incompetent English teacher might post a comment. No competent English teacher would seriously write like this:
“english Teacher” [sic. "English teacher"]
“can’t you finger it out?” [sic. "can't you figure it out?"]
“Another words” [sic. "in other words"]
So . . . I’m assuming satire — unless Mr. tbonetylr persuades me otherwise.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Robert and now another of his buddies chimes in, I don’t think either of you want to admit Robert speaks out of two holes. Robert clearly can’t finger out whether english Teachers “have money” or “get paid too much.”
Acropolis, It is pretty clear that the easiest to think of group of people that would frequent Uncyclopaedia (and therefore contribute) would be English teachers in Korea. People that have not been to Korea would be unable to have that knowledge of the country, it’s foibles and obsessions. And the two gropus that make up the 15-40 year old males that make Uncyclopaedia sites in Korea would be English teachers and Army personnel.
At first that page is funny, and some parts are. Then it gets repetitive, bitter and filled with invective. (why the part about BoA having AIDS? etc). The kind of bitternes often displayed by the Englush teacher in Korea. The rest of WJK’s points are crap, but using that as a barometer of some (or possibly many) English teachers opinion of Korea is valid.
i thought exactly the same, ink. the humour is just so english teacherish, but i couldn’t vent that thought lest it gets pigeonholed into my usual bunnyboiling-for-wjk. also, scanning the entry under japan, it’s not so bad or vicious.. the kenkanryu manga is featured(it’s funny) – but the korean flag-eater photo is on both entries under korea and japan..it’s as if the writers ran out of material to ridicule japan and had to use material from the more ridiculous korea kekekeke.
tbonetylr — Actually, I said neither.
Just a question, if I may. Are you a native English speaker (or a native (e)nglish (S)peaker)? Frankly, I can’t “finger” it out.
From Mr. Hodges:
One certainly hopes it’s satire.
“Trees barking up the underdog,” T-Bone.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Please don’t even try. If you must, in the bathroom with the door locked while the wife is out would probably be the safest setting.
ink and yuna,
You’re on dangerous ground, mes amis. It’s one thing to slam English teachers when they make vindictive and ignorant comments about Korea. It’s a whole ‘nother thing to find any old vindictive and ignorant comments about Korea floating out in cyberspace and assume they were made by English teachers. This is called “affirming the consequent.”
Well stated. It would also be a “hasty generalization” to make generalized representations English teachers as a group for the actions of a few.
For wjk, it comes down to race: “you guys are white, for the most part. you want to tell koreans this is racist.” However, he himself is the one who brought race into the debate (in #25). Despite his trolling (each of his comments thereafter were race baiting) nobody nibbled the bait, bringing race into the discussion.
In other words, wjk and yuna have attempted to be apologists for the comments of Rep. Lee Gun-hyeon based entirely on strawman fallacies, while failing to address the facts and statistics that clearly debunk his argument.
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