‘Go Back to Korea, Chosenjin’

by Robert Koehler on September 22, 2009

in Japan

These lovely gents welcome Korean tourists as they arrive on Tsushima Island.

{ 106 comments… read them below or add one }

1 WangKon936 September 22, 2009 at 2:01 pm: Are the nice nihonjin gentleman trying to say 개새끼?
2 WangKon936 September 22, 2009 at 2:08 pm: BUT… just in case ANYONE (shakuhachi) accuses me of being anti-Japanese let me share this:

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=112

However, it does not justify the rude asshole in the vid.
3 SomeguyinKorea September 22, 2009 at 2:12 pm: Amnesty International is behind this video/investigation? I doubt it. It aims to promote human rights, not petty nationalistic rivalries.
4 SomeguyinKorea September 22, 2009 at 2:16 pm: In any case, what does the Japanese law books have to say about hate speech and harassment? If it really is a problem, not just a one time inconvenience, the travel agencies and the Korean embassy should file a formal complaint with the proper authorities.
5 yuna September 22, 2009 at 2:19 pm: it’s very tame. they are are mostly just saying get out! and go back!(Kaeru) 出てけ ! かえる! and there is a hilarious bit where the woman says “we will (go back) after 2 nights (2bak or 2 paku in japanese) and the japanese guy says doesnt matter 2bak 3 bak go back!

there must be a reason. the koreans who visit temado should behave better, there can be some ugly koreans abraod who have no etiquette. i can imagine especially the older generation that go on cheap tours to temado would be guilty.
6 Curzon September 22, 2009 at 2:26 pm: “In any case, what does the Japanese law books have to say about hate speech and harassment?”

Basically nothing on both.
7 red sparrow September 22, 2009 at 2:40 pm: Looks like the former sex slaves who sit in front of the Japanese embassy on Wednesdays will have some back-up tomorrow.
8 Brendan Cochrane September 22, 2009 at 4:03 pm: Hi Robert,

I’ve been reading your blog for a while now and have enjoyed it. I’m fascinated to hear this story about this kind of behavior going on at the Tsushima port of entry… Anyway, I apologize if this comes off as a shameless plug, but I’m planning a trip to Tsushima for Chuseok weekend and plan to write about it on my Korea/Asia travel blog.

Its name is:
http://www.NotDeadYetBlog.com

If you get a chance, please check it out!
9 Koreansentry September 22, 2009 at 4:06 pm: What can I say, Japan is still backward country.
After 150 years of modernization and colonizing others during height of imperial Japan, that’s best they can come up with.

I remember, when one Australian boy told me to ‘Go back to your country!’ and this is almost 20 years ago from now.
10 red sparrow September 22, 2009 at 4:27 pm: Someone had better go grab a mop because already the responses to this post are starting to drip with irony.
11 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 September 22, 2009 at 5:25 pm: Matt of Occidentalism aka Shakuhahaci parody

Robert, they are simply asking them politely to return to Korea.
12 uno September 22, 2009 at 8:50 pm: Must be hard when the kettles and pots meet to sling name calling.
Vaguely reminiscent of the great “Yankee go home” uprising in Seoul in 2002.
I feel bad for the kids accompanying their parents though.
13 cm September 22, 2009 at 9:11 pm: “there must be a reason. the koreans who visit temado should behave better, there can be some ugly koreans abraod who have no etiquette. i can imagine especially the older generation that go on cheap tours to temado would be guilty.”

That’s not a valid reason to shout racial epithets at tourists just arriving at the port of entry, telling them to go back. Frankly, I wish they did go back and stop supporting the Japanese economy or any other economy where Koreans are not welcomed.
14 lupin_the_4th September 22, 2009 at 10:20 pm: Korean men treat me worse when I’m out drinking (with or without a Korean woman with me). What’s the fuss?
15 yuna September 22, 2009 at 10:22 pm: I don’t think it’s a valid reason, certainly “Kankokujin deteike 出て行け! would have been better But protests are rarely politically correct. I still don’t think it’s that bad. It’s a reaction to the ugly behaviour which should stop on the uneducated rowdy Koreans’ part. It’s not a manifestation of a deep racial hatred as such, in my opinion. These Korean ajossis and ajummas embarrass and infuriate other Koreans even in Korea.
16 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 September 22, 2009 at 10:27 pm: simple enough. Don’t buy a Japanese car. Dumb Koreans.
17 Mizar5 September 22, 2009 at 11:09 pm: Yeah, lump them with the dumb Americans who buy Korean cars.
18 Darth Babaganoosh September 22, 2009 at 11:14 pm: what does the Japanese law books have to say about hate speech

Nothing. No laws against hate speech nor against racial discrimination, so police will do nothing if you are shouted at or refused service somewhere. It IS unconstitutional, so if you want redress, you’ll need to file a lawsuit with the Constitutional Court. Such lawsuits have become Debito Arudou’s specialty.
19 NewYorkTom September 22, 2009 at 11:27 pm: Dont buy Japanese? I love your logic. I suppose I shouldnt buy a bimmer or a VW bc of their PAST association with Nazism huh? Maybe not buy American bc of Nogunri? or Vietnam? of Iraq? I suppose the Indians shouldnt buy anymore Hyundais bc of Mr. Bonojit Hussein.

Let’s see…What else should I not buy bc I must blame the entire country as a whole for the actions of a few right-wing dumbasses… Wow, it looks like I cant buy anything from anywhere!
20 WangKon936 September 23, 2009 at 12:18 am: wjk,

Most Korean products contain SIGNIFICANT Japanese parts… 30-50% in many cases.

Actually, as a way to stem Hyundai, Toyota asked their parts makers in Japan to stop selling to Hyundai!
21 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 1:22 am: SomeguyinKorea,

I did some googling. Amnesty is not behind the video. It is a re-edit of a video that originated 6 months from a rightist organisation called ‘Organisation for the Restoration of Sovereignty’. The video posted here misattributes the video to Zaitokukai, which is a different group that held a protest in 2008.

The edited video doesn’t show the full context, only the Korean go home bits. Even in full context the protest is a silly one. They are protesting to Koreans against Koreans claiming that Tsushima is Korean territory (including Korean tourists), and also responding to rumors of Korean crimes on the island. They also tell the Koreans not to litter the streets of Tsushima, and catch a Korean doing it on 3:17 of the first video, LOL. One of the protesters picks up the litter and gives it back to the Korean that tossed it on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCwvFav9vcc

AND

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOqLCc8nLI

The goal of the protest was to make Koreans feel unwelcome in Tsushima, and it was certainly successful. It seems a bit nutty, but the whole context of this issue is whacked out. Korean tour groups come into Tsushima fully believing that Tsushima is land stolen from Korea by Japan. They believe it is rightfully Korean territory, and the people running the tour groups them that that is so. The result is scenes like this at 2:11 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn4sbZwoYPc

Where Korean tourists (and the guide) enter a Japanese shrine and chant “Tsushima is Korean territory”. As this is a habitual happening, the rudeness of the rightwingers towards the tourists becomes a bit more understandable.
22 WangKon936 September 23, 2009 at 1:24 am: shakuhachi,

Question. Why are the Japanese here using the word chosenjin instead of kankokujin? All these tourists are, after all, South Koreans.
23 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 1:51 am: WangKon936,

Because they know that Koreans recognise the word as a racial slur, while the same recognition is not given in Japan. They get to annoy the Korean listeners, without the danger that they might alienate potential Japanese listeners by using a racial slur.

On 2:28 (this is the video of Zaitokukai from last years protests) of the video below, you can see someone using chousenjin, and another saying that he shouldn’t say it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLb3zy7P6s

The guy says “A Korean (chousenjin) is a Korean (chousenjin). What are you talking about?”

On the last thread I was talking about how this is like the niggardly issue. If they really wanted to use a slur (and alienate virtually every Japanese listener), they would have said “chon”.
24 DLBarch September 23, 2009 at 1:57 am: A Japanese journalist friend of mine in Fukuoka informs me that this is actually a shake down attempt by the local Yakuza to squeeze tour companies for a share of the Korean tourist industry. Stay tuned.

DLB
25 WangKon936 September 23, 2009 at 2:01 am: That sounds more believeable DLB. There are cases of ugly Koreans in Tsushima of course, but a lot of Korean money gets spent in Tsushima and I don’t think any native Tsushimaian wants all that to end anytime soon.
26 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 2:12 am: DLBarch and WK#,

They are not locals, they came from Tokyo to hold the protests. AFAIK, no locals were involved at all (remember, there are only around 30 000 people on this island, and they live all over).

There are various issues involved here. The huge numbers of tourists, land purchases, etc, have benefited a number of people, but it is pricing some locals out of their own island. There are winners and losers here. Large land owners are winners, renters, youth, and more marginal people losers. In the last video I posted towards the end, one of the announcers noted that a similar thing happened in Jeju Island in Korea, where an influx of Japanese tourists meant a man could not get a job as a taxi driver unless he was proficient in Japanese.

Oh, WK#, here is a list of chousenjin in use, conveniently in Japanese with English translations. Decide for yourself whether it is a racial slur.

http://eow.alc.co.jp/%C4%AB%C1%AF%BF%CD/EUC-JP/
27 WangKon936 September 23, 2009 at 2:30 am: Shak,

That link was not very helpful. The links to Korean sites you gave me in the past wasn’t very helpful either, fyi.
28 DLBarch September 23, 2009 at 2:32 am: Shak,

I’m not sure why you think the video is misattributed to the Zaitokukai. If you have information about that, then please share it.

But you and I know perfectly well that the Zaitokukai (actually the Zainichi Tokuken wo Yurusanai Shimin no Kai, or “Society of Citizens Allowing No Privilege for Foreign Residents in Japan,” is not just a well known rightist nativist group, but also has proven ties to the Yakuza. They often merge their shake-down efforts on behalf of their anti-foreigner movement.

DLB
29 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 2:33 am: DLBarch,

I don’t think this is a Yakuza shakedown, as it doesn’t fit their modus operandi. Reasons as follows -

1. They are operating in a completely open, and public place, outside public facilities, not private facilities. The Yakuza on the other hand would pose as a patriotic group blaring music outside a privately owned shop. There would be a handful of guys handing out flyers outside the shop, guys that look threatening. Sales go down and then the Yakuza sell the shop some patriotic books, at the cost of thousands of dollars each.

2. The protest is one day, and is directed towards Korean tourists, and not a private business. A Yakuza operation would be sustained harassment.

3. Yakuza based right wing organisations are virtually silent on Korean issues. That could be because up to a 1/3 of the Yakuza have a Korean background.
30 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 2:43 am: DLBarch,

The video is not 在日特権を許さない会 because another group called 主権回復を目指す会 made it. All you need to do is follow the links I posted here to confirm it.

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/09/22/go-back-to-korea-chosenjin/#comment-346703

I provided the 在日特権を許さない会 protest here -

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/09/22/go-back-to-korea-chosenjin/#comment-346707

Their protest was held last year – it’s a different group.

Do you have any proof that 在日特権を許さない会 is a Yakuza outfit?
31 DLBarch September 23, 2009 at 2:58 am: Shak,

You wrote: “Yakuza based right wing organisations are virtually silent on Korean issues. That could be because up to a 1/3 of the Yakuza have a Korean background.”

Forgive the vulgarity, but are you fucking kidding me? Do you or have you ever lived in Japan? Some of the most virulent anti-Korean demagoguery coming out of Japan is Yakuza-based.

As for the ethnic Korean membership of Yakuza groups, Japan’s own National Police Agency puts their stats at about 10 percent, not 30.

DLB
32 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 3:11 am: DLBarch,

Your translation of 在日特権を許さない市民の会 as “Society of Citizens Allowing No Privilege for Foreign Residents in Japan” is way off.

Let me spell it out for you 「在日・特権を許さない市民の会」

在日という表現は在日韓国人・朝鮮人の方々のことを示す。「foreign resident」ではありません。(The word zainichi is indicative of South and North Korean residents of Japan. It is not ‘foreign resident’).

[特権を許さない]とは「No privileges」じゃなくて「Not permit special rights」という意味合いである。(‘tokken wo yurusanai’ is not ‘no privileges’, it means ‘not permit special rights’.)

So the translation is ‘Citizen’s Society Against Permitting Special Rights for Koreans’, or any close equivalent. Of the special rights they are talking about, the main one is the Special Permanent Residency Right (特別永住権）。

Leave translation to the pros.
33 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 3:21 am: Forgive the vulgarity, but are you fucking kidding me? Do you or have you ever lived in Japan? Some of the most virulent anti-Korean demagoguery coming out of Japan is Yakuza-based.

As for the ethnic Korean membership of Yakuza groups, Japan’s own National Police Agency puts their stats at about 10 percent, not 30.

DLB

So less than 0.5% of the population makes up 10% of the members of organized crime syndicates? Well I guess I owe the Koreans an apology then!
34 DLBarch September 23, 2009 at 3:47 am: Shak,

So I guess 在日米軍 means “Korean Forces in Japan”?

There is nothing at all professional about your translation skills.

DLB
35 cm September 23, 2009 at 4:35 am: Koreans are often blamed for Japan’s increasing crime rate.
Does anyone have the crime stats by Koreans in Japan?
36 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 5:25 am: DLBarch,

Dude, that is funny. 在日 has an essential meaning of ‘in Japan’ so when you put American Army (米軍) beside, it becomes ‘United States Forces Japan’. There are also 在日ドイツ人(German residents in Japan) etc. But when 在日 is unmodified by any nationality, it always has the meaning of South and North Korean residents of Japan.

You asked me if I had ever lived in Japan. Now I ask you the same – people in Japan use 在日 when they mean South and North Korean residents.

Japanese wikipedia – http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9C%A8%E6%97%A5%E9%9F%93%E5%9B%BD%E3%83%BB%E6%9C%9D%E9%AE%AE%E4%BA%BA

本国での国籍によって在日朝鮮人または在日韓国人と区別されることもある。国籍を問わない呼称として在日コリアン、または単に在日[1]とも呼ばれる。韓国では日本国籍取得者を在日同胞とも呼んでいる[2]。

“Also simply called Zainichi”. The reason -

^ 本来「在日」とは日本に生活の本拠を置くという意味だが、さまざまな歴史的経緯から、在日韓国・朝鮮人だけを指して「在日」と呼ぶケースが多い

“Although originally zainichi meant basing ones life in Japan, because of various historical reasons, calling only South and North Korean residents of Japan ‘zainichi’ happens often”.

So zainichi means South and North Korean residents in Japan. When combined with a word like 特権 (special right), the meaning becomes utterly unmistakable. It indicates 特別永住権を有する在日コリアン (Zainichi Koreans with the Special Permanent Residency Visa). The Koreans holding the SPR Visa have all kinds of rights not enjoyed by a German or American permanent resident. It is these rights that they are talking about.

Anyway dude, people pay good money for this kind of teaching. Don’t make it a case of pearls to swine and take this lesson to heart. Yes, it is embarrassing to make a statement, then turn out to be wrong, but it would be worse to have never had someone correct you.
37 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 5:39 am: WK#,

I think my comment is lost in the spam filter. Would you mind restoring it? Thanks!
38 WangKon936 September 23, 2009 at 5:42 am: Actually, I’m not the administrator for this posting. I lost a comment too in the filter on this post. Robert is probably asleep right about now.
39 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 September 23, 2009 at 7:14 am: Would you look at the guilt ridden gyopo Nippon riders, trying to justify their loyal habits of riding the Nippon industrial cash machines.

Wangkon, old argument. But, you are wrong.
1/ Buying a Korean car benefits Korea, that is the bottom line. Bottom line means bottom line. With your false argument, Korea might have just as well just bought and consumed Japanese machines without ever assembling or manufacturing their own. You are just excusing your behavior, which is widespread among gyopos.
2/ How about this, Wangkon. Don’t consume Japanese porn products. Watch Korean porn. Start today.

New York wonjung choolsan Tom, Yoon Dohyun and Kim Janghoon ultimately have the welfare of the average South Korean man at the core of their hearts, and they make entertaining music. I have not heard of either yet going to North Korea, bowing to graven images of King Kim in Pyong Yang. Kim Daejung probably did. Relative to Yoon Dohyun and Kim Janghoon, You, on the other hand, is what I describe as 인간쓰레기.
1/ Majority of US gyopos, I lack respect for. Because their core behavior is not too different from this…which is you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vietnamese_refugees_on_US_carrier,_Operation_Frequent_Wind.jpg
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/specials/saigon/110599saigon-pix.5.html
and, 조선말이나 재대로 배워.

You can criticize my English, but believe it or not, it was good enough to score 1420 on the old SAT, and a 13 on the old MCAT verbal section. If you understand what level of written comprehension that requires, you are indeed pretty old and ‘in the loop’.

German war crimes do not affect Korea in a direct way.
British war crimes do not affect Korea in a direct way.
Russian, Japanese, and Chinese war crimes do affect Koreans in a direct way.
40 cmm September 23, 2009 at 8:46 am: @wjk
as I’ve said before, I love your parodies. it’s the only worthwhile thing that you post. ever.

@lupin_the_4th
“Korean men treat me worse when I’m out drinking (with or without a Korean woman with me). What’s the fuss?”

Are you wearing a shirt that says, “Takeshima is Japanese,” or “Korea sucks?”
41 Arghaeri September 23, 2009 at 9:03 am: Don’t leave out the Americans….
42 Mizar5 September 23, 2009 at 9:06 am: wjk:”German war crimes do not affect Korea in a direct way.
British war crimes do not affect Korea in a direct way.
Russian, Japanese, and Chinese war crimes do affect Koreans in a direct way.”

No they don’t. The source of the pain you feel originates in your own mind.
43 Mizar5 September 23, 2009 at 9:08 am: And, in the final analysis, what is the difference between war crimes committed by deceased Japanese and those committed by deceased Koreans?

The distinction originates in your own bifurcating mind.
44 WangKon936 September 23, 2009 at 9:21 am: Wangkon, old argument. But, you are wrong.

I’m just going to have to pull rank on you wjk. This is a resident urologist vs. an experienced banker situation and I just don’t think you are qualified enough to provide an educated and accurate assessment of the topic at hand.

Regarding porn… I’d think that you’d be the last person making recommendations on this topic.
45 Arghaeri September 23, 2009 at 9:35 am: a merchant banker v an experienced banker
46 Darth Babaganoosh September 23, 2009 at 12:23 pm: Don’t consume Japanese porn products. Watch Korean porn. Start today.

Ugh! For god’s sake, why?

The legal stuff is so fake, ridiculous and boring, it’s unwatchable.
The illegal stuff is so full of guys’ asses and bad camera angles, it’s unwatchable.
47 DB September 23, 2009 at 12:32 pm: This is sad to see – just as it is always sad to see nationalistic displays of hatred by ignorant people.

It should be pointed out though that the Japanese are more often on the receiving end of irrational prejudice from Koreans than the other way round. The average Japanese bears no hostility towards Korea or its people. (Neither are they really interested in issues such as ownership of a rock.)
48 cm September 23, 2009 at 12:42 pm: Ironically it was only few weeks ago when a Korean man was charged and sentenced for racially harassing an Indian expat. Now the tables have turned, and it’s the Korean tourists being harassed. Yay! Go Japan! Sock it to them!
49 DLBarch September 23, 2009 at 1:49 pm: Shak,

When I first read your early posts on this thread, I thought you might be a nisei or even sansei super patriot, but after seeing @ 36, I’m now sure you’re white. No Japanese fetishizes his translation ability the way white dudes do. Absolutely, utterly predictable.

But you’re wrong on zainichi just as you were wrong about the percentage of Koreans who make up the Yakuza, and again as you have been repeatedly wrong on the derogatory use of chosenjin. (Anybody else notice a pattern here?) Zainichi may have some recognized popular meaning as referring to Korean residents in Japan, but that is not its sole or even main definition; it broadly includes all foreign residents.

But this is all beside the point. The interest in this thread is the activities of this thuggish group of nativist rightists and their Yakuza ties. If you want to argue Japanese grammar, please look elsewhere.

Mata ne,
DLB
50 hamel September 23, 2009 at 2:12 pm: Shakuhachi in 36

You asked me if I had ever lived in Japan. Now I ask you the same

Interesting – he acknowledged the question, then threw it back. In another thread I asked him if he had ever lived in Korea. Silence.

Is it now safe to assume that Shak has lived in neither?
51 yuna September 23, 2009 at 2:18 pm: dlbarch, regarding the chosenjin argument, i gave him an answer from a nihonjin who lives in nihon – he said she was stupid and didn’t know what she was talking about. he has become that thing which is more that thing than that thing by his own power of attorney – it doesn’t lead to any conclusion apart from not to argue in the first place when one argues with such beings.
52 hamel September 23, 2009 at 2:52 pm: Yuna: do that thing you do!
53 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 2:55 pm: DLBarch, what I wrote about Zainichi is backed up by common usage and also by references on wikipedia. Even Sperwer uses Zainichi on this thread -

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/09/23/lets-use-expats-to-promote-korea/#comment-346792

Do you think he is talking about all foreign residents?

I asked you about the proven Yakuza ties of zainichi tokken wo yurusanai shimin no kai, and you didn’t provide any.

I have been posting here for about 5 years, so I assumed I didn’t have to explain again that I am not of Japanese descent, but a vanilla Australian. I lived in Japan, and while I was there managed to pick up Korean as a bonus.

Hamel, I haven’t *lived* in Korea, as I have said many times before.

Tell me, Hamel, how does it feel to live your life in a foreign country through the English language filter?
54 hamel September 23, 2009 at 3:03 pm: Shak: I wouldn’t know. Ask someone who does.
55 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 3:12 pm: Hamel, that is funny dude.

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/06/13/open-thread-104/#comment-247371

Kyopo wjk comes to your assistance to render for you the meaning of a simple Korean sentence.

http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/06/13/open-thread-104/#comment-247743

Hamel, your constant sniping is boring. If you have something to say, just say it.
56 Robert Koehler September 23, 2009 at 3:31 pm: Shak — Hamel speaks Korean. It’s just that robot Japanese-to-Korean translations can look a bit funny to those unused to reading them.
57 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 3:34 pm: RJ,

What do you mean robot?
58 hamel September 23, 2009 at 3:35 pm: Shak: egg-zaccary. Even Koreans to whom I have shown that sentence could not guess the meaning. Your word use and grammar are non-standard. Were you using Babelfish?
59 yuna September 23, 2009 at 3:37 pm: despite my own misgivings, here goes.
regarding the chosenjin argument:
let me be the first one to tell you here then.
the term 쪽바리, which came from 쪽발이 isn’t actually a slur. most japanese and some koreans, due to the fact that the japanese themselves think this, who have been influenced by them, think they are. 쪽바리 has its origin from the wooden jandals that the japanese wear. they wear those sandals, it divided their feet in two, therefore nothing wrong at all calling them divided feet. you can quote me here and link to this one comment as a comprehensive and concluding evidence when you explain to your incredulous japanese friends who don’t believe you. in fact, it’s a term of endearment as koreans get corn when they try to wear those jandals.

as for that link. where hamel couldn’t understand you, i’m sorry but your korean there sounds not quite. you know? the choice of words such as
“특정”한 사람 and “회답” made my head tilt by 45 degrees too, i can hazard a guess of what you are trying to say but it’s just strange and actually i still don’t know exactly what you were trying to say – If you were trying to say “A certain someone won’t reply because he cannot speak Korean if you write in Korean”.
한국말 못하는 사람한테 한국말로 해봤자 소용없어.
in my very broken japanese- kankokugo dekinai hitoni kankokugo wo ittemo shouganai.? (and i use no dictionary)
You should think in the most easy japanese you can think of and then just go straight into korean.
words like 특정 and 회답 – no one uses 회답 in everyday korean.. maybe 대답 sometimes.
60 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 3:50 pm: Yuna, I guess you could say I think in terms of Sino-Korean words. Differences in frequency of usage is where I most often go wrong.

Can you put in 특정한 사람 in there? It was meant to be an indirect reference.

You Japanese sentence is fine.
61 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 3:55 pm: BTW, does anyone know of a Han-Viet dictionary? Han-Viet words introduced in Chinese characters along with Vietnamese Romanization?
62 shakuhachi September 23, 2009 at 4:00 pm: Nevermind.

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/dang.tk/langues/hanviet.htm
63 hamel September 23, 2009 at 4:04 pm: Yuna to Shak

You should think in the most easy japanese you can think of and then just go straight into korean.

Actually, I think this is what let him down – translating from Japanese into Korean. Maybe the Japanese reading for 回答(회답) is the standard Japanese word for “reply” rather than the Japanese reading for 對答(대답).

On a sidenote, it amused me when I was in Hong Kong many years ago that the Chinese characters used on the subway for “be careful” were 小心 – literally “small heart/mind” – while in Korea those same characters are used to describe people who are faint-hearted or overly cautious. Here, the characters for “careful” are 操心(조심). Perhaps Sonagi could tell us if this combination of Chinese characters has any meaning in common every day Chinese today.

But back to Shak’s sentence of old:

특정한 사람이 한국어 못 해서 한국어로 써도 회답하지 않아요.

I hazard a guess that he might have been trying to say “some people don’t reply because they can’t speak Korean.” So I would probably write:
“어떤 사람은 한국어를 못하기 때문에 대답하지도 않아요.”

Now, to be fair, I did show that sentence above after writing it to two Koreans, and they said it was an okay sentence to use as is. For me in Korean the 이/가 vs 은/는 conundrum is one that I doubt I will ever be able to solve. Consequently, I tend to avoid both in conversation, unless I am absolutely sure that the usage is correct. And even then I get it wrong sometimes.

Shak’s hubris in dismissing me as Korean-illiterate is a “teachable moment” in a broader sense. Too often in Korea someone who thinks he is pretty sh*t-hot in English will write something and use it in the public sphere, decrying anyone who cannot make head or tail of it. That’s right – companies and government agencies put stuff out without even running it under the nose of a native speaker proofreader!

A couple of weeks ago I was signed into Yongsan Garrison to go eat at the Hartell House (what is the closest gate? gate 10?) . There was a ripper of a sign in “English” explaining something about leaving IDs at the gatehouse. I should have taken a photo of it and sent it to Stars & Stripes. To all who go on south post – check it out next time.

So to all of us who write in a second language (and I include myself): before we put something out in public and then insist it is correct, accurate and standard, let’s at least run it by a nativer speaker of that language, eh?
64 Arghaeri September 23, 2009 at 4:20 pm: Hmm, that not necessarily a given, certainly in England.
65 robert neff September 23, 2009 at 4:28 pm: Not sure how many of you have visited Tsushima (I have been there four times) but I did note that there were some Japanese who were not exactly pleased with the Korean tourist. A couple of examples of vandalism, some thefts, and a lot of drunken old Korean men prowling the streets singing at the top of their lungs at night. If I remember right, Marmot also did a post or two on this subject a couple of years ago.

Don’t get me wrong – there were a lot of people who did like Koreans and, in fact, it is the only place I have seen where the Korean flag and the Japanese flag were flown with the same respect at the airport. But, it wouldn’t stretch the imagination to find some local Tsushimians that at least emotionally supported the demonstration.

As a side note – I find it somewhat amusing that some of the Korean posters here refused to use the Japanese name for the island (Tsushima) and instead insisted on using Temado

Brendan Cochrane – it is a shame you are going now – the last time I went it was too commercialized and lost the flavor it had the first time I went during the 1990s. Still I think you should have a good time.
66 yuna September 23, 2009 at 4:30 pm: 누구누구한테, maybe? – *someone someone* without mentioning names.

so were you trying to imply jk by calling him sarcastically *that certain someone* ?
어느 사람 – aru hito(?) would be best.

as for 특정한 사람, no. 특정 definitely not in this case – that feels like it has more to do with exception in rules..

*someone special* literally would be 특별한 사람 or better 특별하신 분 (you can use honorifics in a sarcastic way) tokubetsuna kata(again a guess) but even then it would be pushing it to convey your meaning across.
don’t make the mistake that koreans make, when they speak english i.e. thinking in korean then translating into english. think in korean (or japanese if you speak it) straight.
67 Koreansentry September 23, 2009 at 4:44 pm: shakuhachi, aren’t you Island Chinese? Japan and Korea is nothing do with you.
68 Me, Gook September 23, 2009 at 5:04 pm: That “Chosenjin 개새끼” ojisan in the black jacket at 0:05 has one funky haircut, looks like he cut it himself, what a good job he did.
69 Darth Babaganoosh September 23, 2009 at 5:18 pm: shakuhachi, aren’t you Island Chinese?

I am not of Japanese descent, but a vanilla Australian

Japan and Korea is nothing do with you.

Except that he lived in Japan.
70 cm September 23, 2009 at 8:34 pm: “A couple of examples of vandalism, some thefts, and a lot of drunken old Korean men prowling the streets singing at the top of their lungs at night.”

Sarcasm on>

Meaning, Koreans responsible for all crimes in Japan (one of the beef in the video). So I guess it would be alright if Koreans harassed drugged up, AIDS carrying rapist English teachers and American tourists flying into Inceon airport. Shout them down with megaphones, “go home Yangkees! we don’t want Yangkees making crime in Korea!”. I love to see the reaction in here if that ever happened.

Sarcasm off>
71 cm September 23, 2009 at 9:16 pm: “Nishimura” named as the right wing leader is the guy in charge of the harassment of Korean tourists. Actually, his videos have been on the youtubes for over a year. I am only surprised that it took this long for South Korean media to catch up.

Nishimura says he’s doing it to make crime ridden Koreans obey Japanese law, and stop invading Japan.

http://news.kbs.co.kr/article/world/200909/20090922/1851275.html

My only fear is there will be some Korean nationalists who will use this excuse and copy the exact same thing against Japanese tourists as revenge. And then again, we’re going to end up with an international incident. As if we need it.
72 JohnT September 23, 2009 at 10:08 pm: cm:

Were you in korea at any time between the middle of 2002 and 2003? Tell me cm, what were koreans saying about Americans at that time.? Oh please tell me, I want to know!

Are you implying all those koreans screaming GO HOME YANKEE! and the NO AMERICANS signs hung in the doors of various business establishments in korea were just in a dream I had in 2002-2003?

Wow! I thought so!

I knew no korean would ever say to me in one of my classes, “I want to kill all Americans!”

I guess the song “Fucking USA” was never popular and US soldiers weren’t kidnapped and physically assaulted. I guess no one ever screamed, “GO HOME YANKEE!” in my face when I was in downtown Daegu. I guess none of those things ever happened at any time between 2003 and 2004.

That never happened in korea because koreans would never do such a thing…right?

I’d love to see the reactions of koreans if that happened to korean tourist in the USA, Canada, Australia, The UK, NZ or even South Africa even.

I can just hear the words to the song “Fucking korea” now as millions of Americans listen to it live.

But hey, the same things happened to koreans all across the US after V.Tech right? And look at the antikorean protests after a korean stabbed a teacher in New Zealand. Those protests were so horrible.
73 JohnT September 23, 2009 at 10:12 pm: Make that, I guess none of those things ever happened at anytime between 2002-2003.
74 robert neff September 23, 2009 at 10:16 pm: John -
I think cm was just being sarcastic……
75 hamel September 23, 2009 at 10:28 pm: So I wonder if I can stop holding my breath waiting for an apology or at least a retraction and a qualified statement of regret (“if I have caused offence…”) for this:

Tell me, Hamel, how does it feel to live your life in a foreign country through the English language filter?

I’ve never seen quieter backpedaling.
76 cm September 23, 2009 at 10:48 pm: JohnT, I was being sarcastic. If those things bothered you so much (and I have spoken up in the past about the mob mentality you’ve described), then you would be speaking up against all racism – regardless who is the victim. Correct?
77 NewYorkTom September 23, 2009 at 11:08 pm: WJK
*조선말*이나 재대로 배워
Hmmm…Now I’m starting to suspect you’re a 조청련.

“Yoon Dohyun and Kim Janghoon ultimately have the welfare of the average South Korean man at the core of their hearts”

Uh huh. Average South Korean? Prolly the hearts of the retards, liberals and the uneducated at best.

If I’m 인간쓰레기, 너는 모냐 앂새끼야? LOL.
78 JW September 23, 2009 at 11:56 pm: That should be 씹새끼 …or, you can just use the shorter version — 씹새 or 씹탱
79 NewYorkTom September 24, 2009 at 1:36 am: I stand corrected. Have fun with that one, WJK 씹탱아! Rolls right off the tongue.
80 VG866 September 24, 2009 at 5:43 am: Im surprised the kiddies at occidentalism and Japanprobe havent reported this incident. Then again if they did, it would look something like this.

Japan Probe James/Occidentalism Matt: Noble Japanese patriots defend Japan from rude Korean tourists. Japanese are not nationalistic.

On the contrary, if the roles were reversed. It would look something like this-

Japan Probe James/Occidentalism Matt: Rude, angry, racist and nationalistic Koreans attack Japanese tourists. Koreans are nationalistic.
81 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 September 24, 2009 at 6:01 am: isn’t it clear that New York wonjung choolsan Tom’s Korean language is subpar for a self proclaimed “Korean conservative”?

You don’t even have basic coverage of the language.

You spell worse than wjk and JW.

I bet you don’t even understand the meaning of the word you’re throwing around. Go ask Daddy.
82 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 September 24, 2009 at 6:04 am: and, furthermore,

조청련 이 아니라 조총련.

I am a true Korean and American conservative.
You are just shit.
Again, it’s not too late to start learning Korean. Or don’t.
83 wjk, 검은 머리 외국인 September 24, 2009 at 6:07 am: 세종대왕 made it. Thus, 조선말.

한국어 came about due to a variety of reasons, including the following.
1/ separation from a period under Japan.
2/ distinction from North Korean usage of the same language.
But, it’s the same language.
84 Sonagi September 24, 2009 at 7:35 am: the term 쪽바리, which came from 쪽발이 isn’t actually a slur. most japanese and some koreans, due to the fact that the japanese themselves think this, who have been influenced by them, think they are.

I have only ever heard Koreans, including elementary school children with no prior contact with Japanese people, use the term as a slur. Language usage changes over time. If it wasn’t an ethnic slur before, it certainly is now. I can believe that some adult Koreans are unfamiliar with the use of this word as an insult. A Korean Christian friend of mine in China had never heard of this word and a number of other colorful expressions used by the kiddies at the school.
85 yuna September 24, 2009 at 7:40 am: sonagi, i was just being shaku, because i have a low self-esteem.
86 Sonagi September 24, 2009 at 8:27 am: I skimmed your post and missed the sarcastic tone. Shak’s Babelfish translations are a hoot. Don’t help him out by teaching him real Korean.
87 yuna September 24, 2009 at 8:38 am: why, sonagi, how refreshing!
& here i was, thinking you were a goody-two-shoes, pc, egalitarian educator-for-all trapped in jennifer love hewitt’s body.
88 cmm September 24, 2009 at 8:58 am: So, is this right?:

Shaku thinks he got cockblocked by some Korean guys in Australia (whish is QUITE possible, but I’m starting to think equally possible that the Korean guys truly were saving the poor girl), hear’s about Korean nationalism, decides that’s the root of all his problems/rejection, and that the way to man up and deal with it is to devote all his free time to slandering Koreans and Korea?

I just haven’t figured out how his love for another racially natiolist country, Japan, came about in all of this. Maybe he scored a Japanese lady around the same time, and realized that they must be a great nation and culture?
89 shakuhachi September 24, 2009 at 9:08 am: Lol cmm,

I don’t love any country. It is the people that walk around saying they love this or that country that are out there killing people.
90 Sonagi September 24, 2009 at 9:20 am: It’s just that robot Japanese-to-Korean translations can look a bit funny to those unused to reading them.

Our friend is definitely not translating from Japanese, which uses the same Chinese compound word, 特別(とくべつ), for 특별 and a native Japanese word, 答える, for 대답. 회답 is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese semantic equivalent (回答) of 대답. Have no clue where he got 특정 as Chinese also uses 特別. 대답 and 특별 are common words that even a person with basic proficiency in Korean would know. I’m guessing Shak is translating from English.

특정
91 cmm September 24, 2009 at 9:23 am: “…It is the people that walk around saying they love this or that country that are out there killing people.”

Well said.
92 DLBarch September 24, 2009 at 9:25 am: Ya’know, I don’t know whether this applies to Shak, but I gotta say that the number of expats who’ve had great experiences living and working in Japan and terrible experiences with Korea is pretty high. I’ve met expats in Japan who swear they’ll never live in Korea again, and expats in Korea who can’t wait to get back to Japan. I don’t think I’ve ever run into the opposite case.

For whatever it’s worth….

DLB
93 inseoulent September 24, 2009 at 9:54 am: I would like to weigh in here regarding the comments by Shakuhachi and DLBarch,
The latter’s observations are something that the Korean Government would do well to investigate if they wish to improve the country’s profile overseas, given the number and vehemency of Korea haters such as Shakuhachi.
Perhaps Shakuhachi would volunteer to be a test subject for such research. Strap him into an MRI and subject him to flirting from Korean girls, only to have him ‘cockblocked’ by a Korean male. Any subsequent increase in brain activity would be detected by the MRI scan and show up in imaging. This would allow the Korean government to isolate that part of the brain that requires treatment.
Personally I find the dislike of any group of people irrational, but I am not exempt from irrational acts myself.
I love Korean people, society, culture, 등등. That’s not to say it is beyond criticism, but the Shakuhachi’s comments on this blog are evidence of an irrational dislike and campaign against a people, and it would be great to know the underlying causes for such a prejudice.
Maybe he is tired by being ridiculed by Koreans in Australia for being a white guy speaking Korean laced with babelfish-sourced phrases.
94 hamel September 24, 2009 at 9:54 am: Songagi:
Thanks for filling us in about Chinese and Japanese use of 회답/대답.

Do the Chinese characters 操心(조심) have any specific meaning in spoken Mandarin today? If so, what? (See comment #63 above for the discussion.)

Translating from English to Korean using a dictionary certainly has its limitations, as we saw here today.
95 inseoulent September 24, 2009 at 9:56 am: ~~tired by~~ tired of
96 hamel September 24, 2009 at 9:58 am: DLB:
Certainly, Korea tends to be a more polarizing country. Oranckay (ex-blogger and erstwhile moderator of these comment sections) used to explain that that was a lot to do with the fact that Koreans are a lot more direct, and will tell you when you are doing something “wrong,” whereas Japanese people are more likely to hide their real opinions. (Those who have lived in both countries – Coyner? DLB? Sonagi – might be able to over more opinions on this.)

This directness of Koreans can lead to annoying “helpfulness” like the restaurant ajumma who will come and move your rice and soup bowls to their “correct” positions, and tell you that eating with your left hand is not good. This can wear you down over time if it happens often enough.
97 Sonagi September 24, 2009 at 10:08 am: Do the Chinese characters 操心(조심) have any specific meaning in spoken Mandarin today?

Yes, it means to be concerned about, worry about. The first character is also the Chinese equivalent of the f-word.
98 cmm September 24, 2009 at 10:30 am: @94 I always hear this about Japanese, that they “hide their real opinions,” or as Koreans often say, “The Japanese have two faces!” Having never lived in Japan, I don’t have a feeling for this. But it always makes me wonder why what seems simply to be POLITENESS is spun as some kind of dishonest evil…that by keeping their negative opinions and comments to themselves, they are cunning, deceptive monsters. Is it because of the tendency that the locals have to demonize the Japanese and their intentions, or is the politeness of the Japanese actually a part of their passive-aggressiveness? Shouldn’t polite people be appreciated for their politeness? Surely there is more to this that can be explained.
99 hamel September 24, 2009 at 10:45 am: cmm: Well, politeness is one way to call it.
Back in Australia our company had some Japanese clients. One was a Japanese nurse with an Australian boyfriend. I said something to her, giving her some advice in a friendly but frank way. She smiled and went home, seeming to understand.

The next afternoon, the boss received a faxed complaint from the girl’s Aussie boyfriend saying that I had said something completely different. I was shocked. It is quite possible that she misunderstood me – her English wasn’t that good. But to act like nothing was wrong and go home and tell her boyfriend such that wrote a letter of complaint meant that (A) something bothered her a lot and (B) she wasn’t about to express that botheration to me.

From that, I can understand why some people might label that “two-faced.”
100 hamel September 24, 2009 at 10:48 am: Sonagi:

Do the Chinese characters 操心(조심) have any specific meaning in spoken Mandarin today?

Yes, it means to be concerned about, worry about.

Like 걱정하다?

The first character is also the Chinese equivalent of the f-word.

Now that *is* interesting. What is its literal meaning? And how do you imagine it became a curse word? I am interested in the etymological development of that.
101 Robert Koehler September 24, 2009 at 1:14 pm: Perhaps Shakuhachi would volunteer to be a test subject for such research. Strap him into an MRI and subject him to flirting from Korean girls, only to have him ‘cockblocked’ by a Korean male. Any subsequent increase in brain activity would be detected by the MRI scan and show up in imaging. This would allow the Korean government to isolate that part of the brain that requires treatment.

To borrow Shak’s turn of phrase, I use his comments as insight into the Japanophile characteristics (sorry, don’t know how to write that in Japanese) and I have adjusted to deal with Japanophile behaviors and social pathologies.
102 commander September 24, 2009 at 3:05 pm: I am enjoying this thread, seeing shakumahachi exposed. Carry on mates.
103 inseoulent September 24, 2009 at 8:11 pm: I only know a little Japanese ~~albeit with big tits~~, but what does shakumahachi mean? I know shakuhachi is a euphemism for blow job (very appropriate name) , but shakumahachi?
104 inseoulent September 24, 2009 at 8:13 pm: I only know a little Japanese ~~albeit with big tits~~, but what does shakumahachi mean? I know shakuhachi is a euphemism for blow job (ironic moniker for a cocksucker!) , but shakumahachi?
105 inseoulent September 24, 2009 at 8:18 pm: Sorry about the double post, something about a CGI 80 error? I don’t know what that means, first time I’ve ever seen one.
106 NewYorkTom September 25, 2009 at 1:17 am: WJK you are certifiably nuts. I love it!