The KT’s Bryan Kay went to Itaewon to ask foreign denizens if racism is a serious problem in Korea.
Then there’s Ye Olde Chosun, which deals with foreigners’ “constant struggle” with culture clashes. Culture clashes like this:
For a Canadian English teacher, one of the most challenging moments of living in Korea comes every morning in the changing room of the gym near his home. The Korean men in the shower often glance at his lower body, and some stare with explicit curiosity at his private parts. He feels “like a monkey” in a zoo whenever it happens, he says.
Hey, don’t take it personally — the Koreans are probably just surprised by your curious lack of a set.
Much, much more whinging where that came from.
{ 243 comments… read them below or add one }
The excuse for racism that Koreans are not used to dealing with foreigners is such a pile of shite. Isn’t this the same country that spends an awful lot of time whining about how throughout history it has constantly been invaded?
I’m sure that whatever faults we find here, there will be people who explain them through ridiculously shitty rationales. Which is all the more reason why we should be careful about finding fault. Lousy customer service, disregard for personal space, people staring at you . . . are these really battles worth fighting?
Well, Lankov put the “invasion” meme to rest, showing how Europe suffered far, far more wars and invasions than Korea in the last 500 years or so. It really was a Hermit Kingdom here.
Wedge, that’s right.
http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2006/09/koreas_notsotra.html
Can’t find the essay now though. Got a link?
Agreed. I thought the stories from the ‘victims’ in question were beyond farcical. Starin’ down your nads in the shower? Jesus. Then turn around and they won’t mock your twig and giggle berries.
Totally–the whole invasion excuse is a load, especially when spoken in the same breath as “We have 5000 years of history.”
For the documented 2000 year history, they sure don’thave that many invasions to speak of.
Lame excuses are lame.
because those of us with a prodigious hang low can’t wait to show it off in front of a group of naked men.
Maybe asking foreigners in Itaewon is not the best idea, many there don’t see the real Korea.
You need to ask foreigners who have ‘penetrated’ Korean society, socialise and converse with Korean people regularly and in Korean. Many foreigners tend to live in a ‘shell’ in Korea.
I know Itaewon provides foreigners of different nationalities, but wonder if answers might be a little different if the surveyed was asked elsewhere.
Here’s Marmot’s original post on the woe-is-me refutation:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/01/must-read-dont-believe-the-weve-been-constantly-invaded-hype/
I can’t find the original article searching on the KT site.
Compare Korea with China, Japan, Russia, Australia, America, Canada etc.. Which nation do you guys think more racist country than others?
Foreigners don’t get to experience Racial hate group(s) in Korea.
Get over it. Talk about KKK, Skinheads and Neo-Nazis and White supremacist in Russia, Europe, US and Australia.
Korea has a pretty good history, and perhaps voluntary subjugation along with invasion here and there more aptly fits the picture and the reason they hate foreigners from China and Japan.
I know how much you hate Korea, but I think it’s relatively good compared to say, Mexico.
I’m going to imagine I’m Mexican. I hope you have heard of our Aztec Empire, which basically invented everything, but buried and torn and raped by the Spanish of western Europe. As a Mexican, I’d like you to know that our Mexican Empire spanned not only present day Mexico, but our Gando, also known as California, Texas, Nevada, Mexico, Arizon, Utah and beyond. In fact, I think these states should come back to Mexico asap. Do you like corn? It’s basically Mexican. Spicy food is also our delicacy. You guys drink shit beer, some German bastardized and watered down piss water called Budweiser. Drink some Corona, Dos Equis, and make a bomb with the Tequila. Everything we have in Mexico has a little more zing to it. Swine flu is famous. Too bad, the Koreans can’t spread Kimchi flu around the world. Perhaps you are not aware, but despite us being not able to provide universal healthcare for our own, we are able to provide US tourists with discontinued medications in the US. Visit our Pharmacias when you tour Mexico. Have cash in one hand, our graduates who have obtained the “Doctorate” of Pharmacy are ready to HELP. Our physicians from our medical schools also have exceptional qualifications. Just look at how well we handled swine flu. We also produce Nissan cars for North America in Mexico. We also have oil, PEMEX. In our elections, only one party usually wins, but unlike the rest of Latin America, we are a stable democracy. And we love football, world version. We eagerly look forward to capture the World Cup one day, and beating USA in football is always special. Since Upper Mexico is trapped by the capitalists empire USA in present day, we have no qualms about our people moving into and occupying Upper Mexico. May they all gain citizenship of the US by birth and marriage and gradually control all of the US legislature. Then, and gradually Upper Mexico will be returned to Mexico proper. Too bad the stupid dumb shit Koreans can’t do that with the Chinese.
We expats should take the advice of Upstate New Yorker Bill Kauffman, from his article Aw, Canada:
“The rules of Canadian football are familiar yet awry, like one’s spouse sporting a fetchingly strange new hairstyle. The field is longer and wider (I never tire of hearing that the ball is on the 53-yard line), and a single point—a rouge—is awarded to a team that kicks an unreturned ball into or out of the elongated end zone. My favorite CFL score is 1-1. Most significantly, an offense gets three downs to make ten yards. Unlike four-down American football, teams are reluctant to either waste a down with a long pass or patiently build a drive on running plays, so a premium is placed on safe short passes. Not my bottle of Upper Canada ale, but I am a foreigner so I do what all foreigners should do when visiting a country: I shut up and enjoy it and then go home.”
[emphasis mine]
#10 Koreansentry
I’m not aware of KKK or Neo-Nazi or White Supremacist groups in Australia. I’m not saying there aren’t ANY…but never came across any major organistion or group with a spokesperson website, significant membership etc.
Could you please substantiate your claim with a website, or contact details?
a bit of googling is all you need or is your question a challenge to his statement because you don’t agree with his statement that it exists there.
didn’t a whole lot of white youths fight against the Muslims in some beach in sydney a few years back after the 911?
anyway koreansentry meant Russia, Europe, US and Australia, didn’t he?
#14
I’m not saying it does’nt exist but would like Koreansentry to substantiate such claims.
I’m sure if I did some research I could come across some crazy old joker with warped backward veiws. But..I wasn’t the one making the claims.
I agree with Koreasentry that there are no foreigner hate groups here (that I’m aware of, but tempted to list some media organisations and government ownership policies).
Racism in Australia is among a mere minority and people of all backgrounds can acheive success and equality in various echelons of society.
I don’t think Korea is overtly racist. But are vary levels of institutionalised prejiduce here toward those who are different (even women and disabled). If challenged I’ll be happy to provide some examples.
Regarding the Cronulla Beach riots, there were cause effect factors at play which led to the riots. They were focused toward ‘Lebanese Australians’ not Muslims per se and most Australians (from all backgrounds) are ashamed at the level the riots escaleted to.
Typo….”But there are varying levels of……….”
Oh, I don’t know. I would think Anti-English Spectrum qualifies.
Yeah, there are no gays in Korea either. Whatever happened to the racial hate groups (um ngos) who were behind the anti-foreign hate fests in 2003, and last year during the beef row?
wjk had better account for his whereabouts.
Why should they be any different from Koreans. who also tend to live in a “shell”?
Let me try that over, for the benefit of Brendon, who incessantly complains about my botched blockquotes:
Based on percentage of population, I suppose few in the know would argue against Korea taking the lead.
So far as I know, foreigners don’t get to experience them in the US, where they’re a pretty moribund, marginalized minority.
However, this is a fallacious reasoning based on an improper comparison, isn’t it? If racial hate is deeply enough ingrained in the culture, hate groups are redundant, aren’t they? There just isn’t as much of a need for them when everybody’s already on board.
Groups like these are at least honest about their feelings. Korean organizations, including the media, the teacher’s union and nationalist ngos have been doing a spectacular job of perpetrating an agenda of racial hatred without owning up to their racism.
“Denial – it’s not just a river in Egypt.” – A. Wag
Give me your address, Mizar5. I will personally book a flight, show up at your doorsteps, and verify your identity.
Nothing about you is Korean. You’re a racist white person who had a bad experience with Koreans and the best you can do is vent pretending to be a Korean. You sad, sad, sad, fucking idiot.
You know, tall tales are appropriate for children, not adults.
Whitey: Yeah, white supremacists exists in my country, but they are teeny tiny wheeny minority, whereas in Korea, everyone is racist.
Me: Allow me to point you towards US segregation laws intact up until 1964, South African Apartheid laws intact towards late 1980s, Russians celebrating Hitler’s birthday in Presentday Russia and Russian government’s best solution being telling foreigners to lock themselves inside home on Hitler’s birthday in the age of 2009. Fuck you. Who the hell are you to wag your finger and tell us who is racist? Go eat shit.
and I wouldn’t want to ever excuse black people from their racism, either.
In the US, riots in LA twice.
Riots in Cincinatti once.
Riots in Detroit at least once.
In South Africa, rape, murder, robbery of whites an everyday story.
In Zimbabwe, rape, murder, robbery of whites PLUS government sanctioned stealing of property.
Whites and blacks are more racist than Koreans. QED.
That’s just sad, wjk. An ad hominem attack, a strawman argument, a red herring argument, and an unsupported hasty generalization.
To paraphrase, your arguments: everyone else is more racist than Koreans, and if you disagree with this, you are a racist. Did I get that right?
I think there is a point here. Koreans, unlike say the welcoming people of South Africa (heard that during the Confederations Cup, the natives were teaching the foreigners dances and chants and being all gregarious), are a closer community. Thus you get the alleged “racism.”
That said, I’ve had numerous African American friends tell me that they think they are treated much better than 2.0 gyopos who don’t speak Korean. Which is prolly true.
# 25,
You forgot “non sequitur,” since we are throwing around fallacy terms here…
That Chosun Ilbo article may have a new date, but it’s quite old.
http://koreabeat.com/?p=650
wjk,
just because “many people elsewhere in the world” litter, doesn’t mean that i have to!
isn’t this the kind of thing one might have been taught in primary / elementary school??
the troubled and racist paradise called south africa produced one of the most amazing and celebrated (except maybe in asia?) human beings of the 20th century: nelson mandela
… who was of the opinion that one objects to racism where you find it, and that you object to it whether it comes from white people or black people (or any other people)… see his autobiography for more detail.
mandela’s “i have fought against white domination and i shall fight against black domination” speech is really well-known in south africa, and in many other parts of the world, and coming from someone who spent 27 YEARS OF HIS LIFE IN JAIL for believing that one race is NOT, and NEVER superior to another race, i think it means something.
regarding the title of this thread:
racism (korean or otherwise) is IMO never “blah blah blah” – too many people in too many parts of the world have died too many horrible deaths / suffered to much for that.
maybe if one realizes that ONE degrading and dehumanizing experience is ONE too many, then… maybe… change is possible.
Thanks for putting it in perspective, Alice. It’s self defeating when some people attempt to turn racism into a pissing match, isn’t it? To note that racism is clearly more pervasive in Korea than in the US is not a very profound or hurtful observation. There are a number of objective means by which we may verify such an observation, including the percentage of people who would marry outside their race, the number of people who harbor unfair sterotypes of other races, etc.
Pretty well known stuff. Koreans are well aware of their prejudices. However, they often have no valid point of reference, having heard so much about it in the Western media that they may assume that it much more pervasive than it really is. There is also a sterotype of white racism that derives largely from Hollywood.
Projection of Koreans’ own attitudes is also at work: “We feel this way; therefore, Westerners must as well.” That would be a hasty generalization. Attitudes are culture specific.
As for African Americans, I have not in my experience observed any marked racism aimed at Asians or Koreans on their part.
While this is not a valid or serious figure, I might posit a rhetorical guestimate that perhaps one in 300 Americans are racist, based entirely on the fact that one million out of a total population of 300 million were involved in the tea party march on Washington, a visible contingent of which display apparent racism. Limbaugh and Beck make racist statements, and they are the drivers behind the movement on the media side. To me, that’s a large number, and the fact that it’s considered a small number elsewhere in the world is no real consolation.
But then, these are people who are not really capable of analyzing information very effectively, which is a far more broad based problem that actual racism. The biggest bias in the US today is confirmation bias – the tendency to absorb only the data that confirms one’s own partisan bias. Critical analysis skills are generally lacking.
It is not hateful to note these things – it is liberating and compassionate to expose the truth for what it is. Prejudice is nothing to be ashamed of, but we need to expose it to face up to it within ourselves.
Finally, the reverse racism argument that wkj made above, which is similar to Rush Limbaugh’s latest odious remark, is pretty transparent incendiary rhetoric. There is no reason for penis boy to take any of this personally, and he should understand that nobody is representing Korean people as subhuman by pointing to their flaws.
To the contrary, it is a way of saying:
“Welcome to the club. You are not very much different from the rest of us, human and flawed but with unlimited potential for self-improvement. None of us have reached perfection, but rather than deny our faults or get into pissing matches about whose faults are greater, we can expend that energy in a sincere effort to improve ourselves, on an individual basis.”
By the way, here’s the link to Limbaugh’s latest racist-tinged remark.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/limbaugh-in-obamas-america-black-students-cheer-beatings-of-white-classmates.php?ref=fpblg
Someone put it to me this way today, in explaining the racial subext behind the term “socialist”: Since the president is African American, in the eyes of undereducated prejudiced people, he is seen as “the typical black guy who wants to steal from us hard working white folk to redistribute to poor, lazy black folk of his own kind.”
This is the typical Korean race totem pole based on my experiences with racist Koreans:
1. Educated whites
Jews (prolly one of few countries where Jews are not despised except for the 먼나라 이웃나라 bs)
Koreans
2. uneducated whites or from poor countries
rich arabs
Japanese
3. Chinese and/or 조선족
4. SE Asians
5. animals
6. blacks, south asians and any others considered “dark”
This is a country where they’re taught to hate other races as part of an education system. I still remember I was taught to hate the 쪽빨이s in an elementary school setting.
God forbid if you suggest something may be better than something Korean….Remember, Koreans invented everything.
I think I’ve heard more 깜둥이 this and 깜둥이 that more than I heard the word “nigger” in the states.
Koreans are nice to you if you are from a “good” country or you’re white but if you’re any hue darker than they want, you’re some sort of xx 새끼.
And I’ve heard so many times if they see some darker person who can surprisingly afford something in contrast to Korean expectations, Koreans are always quick to point out that that dark person must be royalty back in their own country or someone previleged.
Even in the states, Koreans are always talking about how when they want to find a lawyer or a doctor, they gotta find a Jewish/white one because their smarter. God forbid if they have a black doctor, they’ll change doctors in a heart beat even if the black doctor is the head of the surgery unit at Mass General with a degree from Harvard AND a Rhodes scholar.
WJK, I wait for your fucked up replies.
wjk…
Everybody’s strawman!
New York wonjung choolsan Tom,
Are you sure those are your thoughts, and not generalized to all Koreans?
You’re a fuck, you’re dad’s not a real doctor. Happy?
Well super. It is worse in other places therefore it is not a problem here.
Gawd, I’m so fucking tired of the “just because it exists somewhere else doesn’t mean you have to /can do ! ” argument thrown back AGAIN and AGAIN. Whenever some well-hung donkey of a Canadian teacher cries “Mommy they’re all looking at my thing like I’m some sort of a gorilla!” and that gets equated to racism, we are just answering back with “Let those without sin cast the first stone”..for fucks sake. Koreans have yet to form a prejudice with a bunch of foreigners who’ve settled in their country apart from the US army men and the English teachers (relatively a new thing) because the history of (economic) immigration into the country (which is ALWAYS related to racism) is short due to the fact that it itself hasn’t been completely out of being in that economic bracket for a long enough time.
Let’s just wait and see how the Koreans deal with it without saying stupid things like “racism in Korea is the worst in the whole world” which just makes me laugh.
Is wjk promoting racism in Korea? NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He’s saying 너나 잘하세요. It’s like someone who shits in the street only just having brought in anti-shitting law telling someone “oh, you dropped that piece of paper, PICK IT UP AT ONCE! Just because we used to shit in our country does that mean that you should drop that piece of paper, terrible, you are the worst littering country in the world”
half-baked analogies like that just make me cringe.
AGAIN no bloody Korean is defending racism, or defending it with instances of it in other countries, until and unless we are provoked with crazy shitty whinge accusations from former slave owning countries.
I support Darth Babaganoosh’s assertion that Anti-English Spectrum is a hate group. Further, to apply Mizar5′s argument, Anti-English Spectrum is more dangerous than skinhead hate groups, because mainstream Korea does not seem to recognize that Anti-English Spectrum is, in fact, a hate group.
New York Tom where do English teachers fit on your totem pole? It’s flawed according to the English teachers because they are educated whites.
I used to shave my balls specifically for the appearance of added penile mass at the gym in Korea. Ahhh, the stares of jealousy, how I long for those days.
Whew, that was quite a temper tantrum, yuna.
It’s basically the bunch of Koreans(2MB) who seem to think that learning English is the basic premise for joining the developed nations, at the expense of bringing in sub-standard english teachers into the country, that are responsible for the whole phenomena of English teachers (the one or two bad eggs) and the perception of them. However, I really don’t think there is such a unsubstantiated bad impression of them overall.
I agree that anti-english spectrum is a bad thing. Is it dangerous? Not yet in my opinion. I think the bunch of low life scums who were stupid enough to publish their scum-like thoughts on Korean women on the net whilst in the most wired country in the world, should be hung drawn and quartered by the many countless English teachers who have their quality of life in Korea suffer because of the stupid few.
… to people who have already done better? That makes no sense?
Such as Korea, which actually outlawed slavery later than the US?
Nobody said anything about defending racism, yuna. What people like that are doing is far more destructive than simply defending racism – they are denying it, thereby perpetrating its practice. It doesn’t hurt a bit to do a little honest self-evaluation. Nothing personal about the matter.
African slaves I meant. thereby sticking to the matter at hand, which is clearly not discussing the class system.
I am also waiting for Arg’s input. Usually his repertoire on this matter is the same. Korea is a racist country & cannot defend the accusation with instances of racism around the world.
Let’s not get carried away here. Korea is NOT a racist country. It is a wonderful country that, like any other country, has its challenges.
Mizar, oh, I know you are being funny. You must have figured out that it’s the sameness of the argument that I find offensive as much as the point itself.
I give you a gold star for that.
I hated going out to restaurants in public with my family because everybody stared at us, “Oriental family”. I absolutely hated going out to the public because of the hostile stares and name callings that will invariably come our way. When my father, in his thick accent, asked something to a sales clerk, the sales clerk rudely and angrily answered back in a deliberate “Oriental” accent that you saw in Kung Fu movies. Once when we (my mother, I, and my brother) were on a public transit bus, some white guy shouted at us “Chinks! LOL “. When I was in High school, and I was walking on the street bothering nobody, a white guy in his 30′s walking from my opposite direction, did a “hhhaaaaaakkkkkk spit”, right on my feet, and a courteous “fucking Chink!” with an angry disgusted look. In high school, while riding the bus, there was this white girl who happened to sit beside me. Some group of young guys in their twenties started making fun of the girl who was sitting beside a “good looking Chink”.
She got up and sat somewhere else. When our family moved to a new neighborhood, I was going home after school. These white guys who saw me walking… I heard one of them say “The Chinamen are starting to move in..”.
This was all back in the 1970′s and 1980′s, in major White dominated cities. Asian immigration was at their infancy, and it was just starting to pick up. In relative terms, it wasn’t even that long ago. There were many such incidents that happened to me while living as a gyopo in those days, but for some reason the incidents that I mentioned above have stuck with me. Frankly, it was hell, living as an Asian person during those days.
Of course, the picture is totally different today as the demographics has radically changed. The incidents I’ve described above is ancient history, from another era.
My point is this. It’s ludicrous to suggest that the West isn’t inherently racist as Korea is. The level of tolerance in the West didn’t just come out of a vacuum. It took decades for them to come up with racial sensitivity. And it wasn’t a smooth sailing all the way. There have been plenty of set backs and conflicts to get to where we are today.
I think Korea should be given the same opportunity to go through the same cycle as the West. As always, the first step is to recognize that there is a problem. I think Korea is there in that regard.
Well said.
there is a cycle that can form which is quite dangerous when it comes to being in a abusive relationship, i.e. 못된 시어머니 밑에 있던 며느리가 못된 시어머니 된다. without meaning to. That might also explain some of the claims that some of the Korean guards under the Japanese during the WWII were just as if not more cruel than the Japanese made by some prisoners.
Whether Korea learns from the experience of being on the traditionally receiving end of racism in other countries, and reduce that period of that same cycle down considerably, or stretches it out, remains to be seen but I have my money on the former.
“Koreans have yet to form a prejudice with a bunch of foreigners who’ve settled in their country apart from the US army men and the English teachers”
Yuna, I have worked in korean companies employing whites, and south east asian and south asians etc, having had that experience I can safely say your comment is complete horseshit.
Gawd, I’m so fucking tired of the “because I don’t acknowledge it it doesn’t exist”
that’s real cute.
In those companies, exactly how is racism manifest? I would like to know because my brother also works in one of those Korean companies and would like to compare notes.
And if you are going to say something along the lines of the Koreans don’t invite you to sit at the same table in the cafeteria everyday, I’m going to blow my top off.
“Korea is a racist country & cannot defend the accusation with instances of racism around the world.”
Don’t even know what you mean. Recognising that racism and prejudice exist in korea is a simple part of living in the real word. I equally recognise that racism exists in my home country. What exactly is your point.
“& cannot defend the accusation with instances of racism around the world.”
Definately do not know what this means. Why would I defend the accusation when it true. Why would I need to refer to events around the world when I could see it every day against south east asians or others in my own workplace.
in mid 80s, my family was driving from New York City to Niagara falls. On the way, we stopped at a KFC in upstate New York.
The white female KFC workers were talking amongst themselves about chink this chink that, and commented on how another one is coming, referring to my brother who was in my mother’s womb. As Koreans, at the time, we were offended, well I was, because I heard and understood everything they said, but had no thought about suing. If we had known better, we would have followed the lawyer’s first commandment. Sue where the big pocket is.
This is not horse shit. And how dare you wag your finger like you know any better. Your grandfather was a racist fuck. Your father is also a racist fuck. You, to your surprise, is still a racist fuck. How do I know?
How do you say that all Korean males are gay and or their dicks should be barred from Korean females? What the fuck? There’s your remnant racism. By the way, Japanese people are smaller in height and physical features all around, except prosthetic breasts. Where’s the comment on Japanese dicks, which are relatively smaller than Korean ones? Hey, I’ve seen a lot of dicks. Are all Japanese male singers gay, too? Must be, to whitey in East Asia. Just be glad that your dick is smaller than the black guy’s.
Let’s settle this once and for all. Present us with video footage of…
“My point is this. It’s ludicrous to suggest that the West isn’t inherently racist as Korea is. ”
So why didn’t you just say so instead of going off into a rant.
“I would like to know because my brother also works in one of those Korean companies and would like to compare notes.”
Your brother works in a korean company, is that supposed to be an argument supporting your case?
I have given numerous examples previously I do not need to repeat them ad infinitum for them to be valid.
“And if you are going to say something along the lines of the Koreans don’t invite you to sit at the same table in the cafeteria everyday, I’m going to blow my top off.”
Grow up, Yuna.
My point was that, this is your baby (like shaku’s baby is Japan) : racism in Korea and to show how racist Korea was. I remember you always came up with the same arguments along the lines of the “littering argument” made by Alice.
No, please, give examples.
I just don’t remember your instances of company racism. My brother works in a Korean company is not an argument in itself, but from what he tells me there are racism(prejudice) against Koreans in Korean companies rather than the non-Koreans. Also, I know of some other instances where a lot of non-Korean people who should not be qualified to do the jobs get the jobs plus the perks because HR hasn’t quite managed to figure out/weed out the CVs from other countries (especially the ones from non-US) properly. However, I am really curious as to know what exactly constitutes the practice of racism in such Korean companies in your opinion.
#61 Really, I didn’t know that not approving of prejudice was something to be scorned as “a baby”. Exactly what was your problem with Alices, point quoting Mandela, “who was of the opinion that one objects to racism where you find it, and that you object to it whether it comes from white people or black people (or any other people)… see his autobiography for more detail.
So you think just because prejudice exists elsewhere, then its OK.
“but from what he tells me there are racism(prejudice) against Koreans in Korean companies rather than the non-Koreans.”
Is it possible to be racist against your own race?
In fact, I’ll up you one further as I remembered.
I used to work for a brief while in one of the government funded agencies myself. When they were looking for a marketing manager in UK, they received many CV’s. However, they would penalize a Korean-origin applicant because they said the HQ preferred to have a token “non-Korean” person for the role.
So what is the practice of racism in the places you worked for?
Koreans don’t invite me to sit at the same table in the cafeteria everyday.
Have at it, yuna.
I do believe, Korea is on the right track to “open-mind” society. It will be a slow step by step progress. But, the wind of change is already blowing through Korean society.
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/data/html_dir/2009/09/07/200909070048.asp
#66 Well done, you have just demonstrated the opposite, i.e that the prejudice was in fact against the “non-korean” since that position was in fact reserved for a “token non-korean”, and therefore no other positions were available to “non-koreans”
Arg, you’re ok, but you should have stuck with my cafeteria argument than the one in #69 if you couldn’t think of any off hand.
“I have given numerous examples previously I do not need to repeat them ad infinitum for them to be valid.”
Here’s one then since you’re too lazy to look up any, how about the follow up phone call on receipt of my CV to check that my english nationality wasn’t of an coloured variety.
Yuna, calm down and think about where you are casting those stones. Korea was a slave owning country until 1894, and while in the case of western countries like Britain, in which slavery was abolished by soul searching, or the US, abolished through civil war, Korean slavery was abolished through pressure from an outside country, namely Japan. If Korea didn’t have foreign slaves it was only because Korea was so pitifully poor that they could only enslave their countrymen.
You also miss the point – I don’t know how you define racism, but most Koreans are significant enablers of Korean prejudice. An example – when I was 21 I went out to have a drink at a bar with a Korean female friend (just a friend and still friends now). While we were there she was approached by a young Korean man (under 25 I would say) that spoke to her in Korean. At that time I spoke no Korean at all. Anyway, I assumed they might be classmates because chance meetings of that sort happen in Sydney all the time. They spoke animatedly for a few minutes, then he left the bar. I asked her what the conversation was about. The conversation? Basically along the lines of “don’t disgrace Korea by dating foreign guys. He considers you a slut”.
At this time in my life, I had very little contact with Koreans and I was totally shocked by this. In time, I had the opportunity to poll Koreans about this and what I got was a lot of enabling. “Korea has been invaded so many times so Koreans are sensitive to outsiders”. “Japanese people made Korean women comfort women so Korean men are sensitive to losing Korean women to foreigners”. “Korean men just want to protect Korean women”. Even “you must have misunderstood the situation” wtf. This and other endless excuses, no ‘oh, that’s messed up’.
At this time, 10 years later, I have come to realise that Koreans possess a dual morality (이중도덕). One set of standards that applies to Koreans, and another set of standards for non-Koreans. If the above happened to a Korean by an Australian man, Koreans would no hesitate to call it racism – they wouldn’t be making excuses. However, Koreans consider it permissible if it happens to a foreigner.
On the idea that non-Koreans living in Korea lack sexual morals and should be criticised for it, well, Koreans are on extremely shaky ground here. Do Koreans have superior sexual morals compared with non-Korean residents in Korea? Well do they? And don’t talk about how Korean girls are criticised by the Korean media too – all that is just about enforcing Korean patriarchy on Korean women, because the patriarchy is right to fear that their inadequacies will be exposed through contact with non-Korean men.
I do not consider stares and the like to be racism. What is annoying however is Korean petulance and sense of self entitlement, where ever they are, whether in Korea or overseas.
“African slaves I meant. thereby sticking to the matter at hand, which is clearly not discussing the class system.”
So as well as slavery being irrelevant to the topic in hand, you display prejudice by apparently saying that korean slavers is OK, its only non-korean slavers that you have a problem with
Shak,
Most of what you said makes sense, except this:
Hard to get any other slaves when your neighbor countries are China, a sparsely populated Russian Far East and a Japan protected by an ocean.
Also, nations tend to end slavery when they have decent industrialization. Britain ended it voluntarily true, only because steam powered industrialization made slavery redundant and unnecessary in the home islands. Steam powered industrialization actually kept slavery alive in the U.S. because it only made cotton cultivation more profitable. It was easier to process cotton, but at that time it still needed human hands to pick said cotton.
The British and their colonies needed slaves to gather raw materials to support the mercantile system. Look at how many Indians are in South Africa and how many Africans are in North America. That is today’s legacy of this system. In this sense it’s good that the Koreans only had their own to enslave.
WK#,
What is interesting about slavery (according to what I have read) is the sheer inefficiency of the system. Slaves are free labor, true, but they must be fed, clothed, and housed, and the productivity levels of slaves is extremely low. Use of slaves also holds back mechanization of industry (increased productivity).
Wang Kon,
“Hard to get any other slaves when your neighbor countries are China, a sparsely populated Russian Far East and a Japan protected by an ocean.”
Somewhat riduculous statement when you go on to refer to all the slaves in the Americas which came from far more remote areas overseas.
What you mean is its hard to get them when you are pityfully poor and don’t have the ocean going respources to obtain them….
Oh, hold on a moment isn’t that exeactly the point Shak made that your obejcting to?
More rubbish, there was no slave work force in the home islands in the first place (there were some family slaves) and slavery was confirmed (note confirmed) as illegal in the home islands by the senior judiciary in 1772 when industrialisation was taking place. The transatlantic slave trade was slavery was later illegalised by statute in the UK as a result of an anti-slavery conscience movement.
As opposed to Japan, which apparently was so poor they had to man their munitions factories with drafted colonial labor.
Carry on as you were.
yuna,
something about the “just because they litter elsewhere..” thing really upset you, didn’t it?
what, exactly?
the fact that it suggests that people should try to accept individual responsibility for their individual beliefs & actions?
was that the part that made you cringe?
as mizar5 pointed out @44: nothing wrong with (constant – my addition – and sometimes really painful – my further addition) self-evaluation.
because that … is the only, and i mean only, way things really change in a society: when people honestly attempt to accept individual responsibility for their OWN WAY of being in the world.
please note: “attempt” – because we’re all human and we’re all going to fuck up somewhere along the line. them fuck-ups are ok though, IF you genuinely learn something from them.
i, for one, was GENUINELY shocked and surprised by the levels of racism and discrimination which i encountered in korea.
i admit that i did not do a one? two? three? year long research paper on the way society operates here before i accepted the invitation (?) to work here. (and woe is me.)
having traveled (rather extensively) through africa & europe – and having only been exposed to countries where racism and the acceptance / denial thereof is totally un-cool – i assumed things would be the same around this part of the world, that most people (and not only a select few) would be seriously concerned with challenging their biases and prejudices about race (and sex, and gender etc) – i mean, these have been hot issues in the rest of the world, sorry, global village, for A WHILE now.
i was wrong in my assumptions.
what have i learnt from this?
once again, NEVER make assumptions…. no matter how bloody hard that is!!
as for the debate on penises (you know, koreans, canadians, japanese etc): i speak only for myself when i say that size is ultimately not the determining factor….really…wake up.
great sex for me (don’t feel that i’m qualified to speak on behalf of all caucasian women
) depends on a /an
sense of humour?
ability to reflect, imagine, dream?
some proof that you are actually engaging with this process called life (even if it is in korea, yuna!) and are not just a spectator…
The indians your refer to were not slaves and were much generally much later immigrants.
There were a lot of indentured indians who immigrated to places like guyana, to work on plantations, and who’s descendants still form a large part of the population.
wow, white men ganging up on one Korean woman, indignantly to teach her a lesson that
Koreans are racists.
Fuck off.
try this.
Go fuck your Korean wifey, who seems to think that everything you say is gold.
You’ll penetrate her, and say, Koreans are racists, right?
And she’ll say, Yes, Yes, Yes.
Isn’t that what goes on most of the time anyway, when you refer to your Korean wife as validation for your puny thoughts?
And, um. Why did you marry a racist?
Arghaeri,
Okay, my bad. Britain had very little slavery in the home islands but sure sent a lot of “indentured servants” FROM the islands TO their colonies.
Britain had a bazillion slaves in their colonies also… until the late 18th/early 19th centuries because industrialization made slavery a little more redundant, thus making it illegal was economically more feasible.
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/solidarity/indiasa3.html
oh dear wjk, you’ve really lost the plot, haven’t you.
why are you so angry?
sexist pig too, inferring that poor girl is not capable of having a debate, and needs defending by the great defender wjk.
So a white girl in the US says to korean americans there is no racism in america, wjk is going to leap to her defense when the korean americans poijnt out the errors in her arguments.
Granfalloon@39,
Absolutely. Not only is AES a hate group, and not only does mainstream Korea not recognize they are a hate group, BUT they also have the ears of several people in congress and what they say is being taken seriously enough for legislation to be drafted.
Dangerous, they are.
“Britain had a bazillion slaves in their colonies also… until the late 18th/early 19th centuries because industrialization made slavery a little more redundant, thus making it illegal was economically more feasible.”
A bazillion, this is a statistic you can back up is it? In any case who was denying that british colonies participated in slavery, or britains apart in the triangular slave trade. However slavery was confirmed as illegal in 1772 in the home islands, the triangular slave trade was abolished in 1807, and the Bristih Navy then actively policed the seas to prevent other nations from shipping salves acroos the atlantic.
“because industrialization made slavery a little more redundant, thus making it illegal was economically more feasible.”
Your repeating the same stuff, you’ve admitted “my bad” to. Slavery was not an active part of industrialisation in the UK, and there was little industrialisation in the main slave colonies. The main slave colonies relied on slaves to do manual crop picking, such as sugar cane etc. Hence, industrialisation did not make slavery a little more redundant since crop picking did not become industrialised in that period. It is well recorded that the slavery trade was abolished as a matter of conscience by the anti-slavery movement epitomised by Wilberforce.
“http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/…..iasa3.html”
I know we may look alike to korean-aericans, but the boers were dutch, not british, and hence this your link no relevance to the indians you were referring too “britain and her colonies” and the much later indian immigrations into africa e.g. uganda even in this century.
that is why I find it irritating arguing with you because you have a habit of seizing upon something which is completely irrelevant and deflecting from the main topic, like last time with the “neighbourhood” argument. korean slaves or 하인 which is clearly different from 노예 system is more to do with the class and the caste system. When I said slaves, I meant the traditional African, or British slave trade which is to do with the topic at hand which is someone treating you like shit because of the colour of your skin.
As for you CV account, I can completely believe that. I admit then that’s indeed racist behaviour on part of the Korean company. I would imagine that they would employ the same way, of wanting a whitey Brit for a job, as opposed to a coloured one, by the same token as what I’ve said already. I guess I was just after how they would, once they hired you, proceed to treat you differently because of the fact that you were non-Korean.
Alice, nothing against your argument. It was just repeated so many times by the others before. It is bad to litter everywhere, as it is indeed bad to be racist everywhere. When we come to argue about what constitutes a racist behaviour, we bring up instances from other countries. It’s only natural. It’s not meant to be just a defense.
“wow, white men ganging up on one Korean woman, indignantly to teach her a lesson that”
seems to have failed to notice that alice is girl too….
http://slavetrade.parliament.uk/slavetrade/history
Here are some great links.
I don;t know what you’re trying to argue – that Britain didn’t rely on slavery as industrialization therefore ….?
Britain had slaves, they were the traders, perpatrators of the act until cleaning it up a little before their subjects in the US, who needed it for longer because of their cotton picking.
You know, in reading these comments, there were people eagerly awaiting other people’s opinions several times. And yet nobody eagerly awaits for my opinion. Why is that? Is it because I post irrelevant stuff like this all the time? Damnit!
Well let me try to be relevant: I think the gender, nationality, and penis size of the posters here are beyond irrelevant, and yet that’s what wjk always refers to when making arguments. Can’t you stick to the ideas at hand man?
You need to brush up on your comprehension skills then….merely rebutting false statements made by Wangkon….
First point….Wangkon was arguing that slavery was only abandoned when industrialisation rendered it redundant when this was clearly not the case. Therefore inferring it was an act of economic convenience rather than in fact a social conscience movement which actively pursued abolishment of the slave trade as a social ideal against economic interests of the time. In the light of the times quite an enlightened approach which goes somewhat against your inference that descendants of countries which were once involved are somehow not entitled to speak against prejudice in the modern age.
Second point, what is your point, That Britain colonies had slaves is not in dispute, in that they bought and sold they were indeed perpertrators for some time, until said social movement led to big changes. The point being we changed…we didn’t stay the same because other countries did it before us so why can’t we. We took a moral stand.
Thirdly, what subjects in the US? It may have escaped you notice but the US was not a Brtish subject when the slave trade was abolished.
Fourth, you still haven’t explained why you think its OK for koreans to be slavers but not non-koreans…..
that’s why wjk’s has taken on the moniker “penisboy.”
“that is why I find it irritating arguing with you because you have a habit of seizing upon something which is completely irrelevant and deflecting from the main topic,”
This is your problem, you raised the completely irrelevant slave trade which ended 200 years ago in the atlantic, in a discussion about prejudicial behaviour in Korea today.
Then you have the gall to complain that I irrelevantly comment on your comments irrelevance…. classic
If you stay on topic in the first place instead of dissembling all the time you might get irritated less often….
slavery = racism = title of this post = not irrelevant.
Arghaeri, Yuna is making the “Korean culture” argument. Korean slaves were the lowest part of the Korean class system, and thus slavery is Korean culture.
한국 노비제도 = not racism, class structure yes but not racism = off-topic = irrelevant
stretching to say that I think 한국노비제도 is OK because it’s Koreans discriminating against Koreans = wrong && irrelevant because I didn’t, and it isn’t.
“As for you CV account, I can completely believe that.”
There now, it really wasn’t so difficult to admit that koreans sometime display prejudicial behaviour was it……
“slavery = racism = title of this post = not irrelevant”
Disingenuous ommission again, title of this post is “Korean racism” and post is about currnet cultutal struggle in korea.
Hence european slavery more than 200 years ago is in no way relevant to contempory korean racism. Get your act together.
No, that’s never been difficult for me. We had this argument before. I was completely defending Bonojit Hossein that last time right? i.e. I completely believe that Koreans can be shit against the people of darker colour skin than themselves. It’s always been the whites crying racism in this country that I find harder to accept.
yuna, what happened to that Indian can and does happen to whites in Korea (there is a thread about it on this site and many people testified to it). When white people relate these experiences, they are not “crying about racism”, they are airing legitimate grievances. There is no reason that you should treat people of different races having the same experiences differently.
\
It almost certainly is everything relevant because it goes back to my “cast the first stone” argument. Last time I gave more up to date accounts of the white kids hanging outside Seven Elven shouting “Fuck off home chinks! ” it was also deemed as irrelevant. and the same old “just because it is so in other countries” argument thrown this way.
“Koreans have yet to form a prejudice with a bunch of foreigners who’ve settled in their country apart from the US army men and the English teachers”
So it was a different Yuna who said this was it?
“It’s always been the whites crying racism in this country that I find harder to accept.”
I’m curious, why is that?
Also, as a Korean woman myself, I have little sympathy for shaku (and others’) story about the stranger-koreans attacking their Korean female companions. As I’ve said before, I’ve been hanging around with whites and non-Koreans myself (and not in a group like someone said to me before) and I’ve not ever felt like I was judged or criticized, more often than not it was more of a curiosity sort and nothing I couldn’t handle anyway.
“There is no reason that you should treat people of different races having the same experiences differently.”
Exactly, but thats exactly what Yuna does, she iby admission is more able to accept a darker skinned person experiences as true, thereby again demonstrating her inherent prejudice against lighter skinned whites.
my “cast the first stone” argument.
What argument, did I miss it. In any case what relevance has a cast the first stone argument got to do whether people have experienced prejudice or not.
The cast the first stone argument was about punishment of sins, not denial of sins or recognising of sins and dispproving af said sins.
“I was completely defending Bonojit Hossein that last time right?”
No you focussed then on a it doesn’t happen to white why are they whinging meme as well.
yuna, if someone came up to a group of whites with Koreans and started warning them about Korean men beating wives and girlfriends, or that Korean men just consider white women sluts, and such things happened to many people so it was an obvious pattern, you would say that was racism and prejudice against Koreans. This reveals the dual morality held by you and other Koreans that I wrote about earlier in this thread. With Koreans, what is good for the goose is never good for the gander.
shakuhachi @ 98, slavery in past Korea is nothing do with racism. So please take your stupidity somewhere else. Btw, why do you even keep posting here??? what? to show up your stupidity?
Mizar5 @ 22, again your comments doesn’t have any credibility what so ever. There is no reported serious racial incidents in Korea ever. But there is plenty from Russia, Britain, Japan, China, USA, Australia, New Zealand. I take it you don’t read/watch/listen real news from globally.
Baek-du boy @ 13, White supremacists is live and kicking in Australia. Even KKK have recruitment agency in Australia.
There is even Pro-White political party like ‘One Nation’ once led by Pauline Hanson.
Can Mod ban this two shakuhachi & Mizar5 for making ignorant and biased comments. They have repeatedly made biased/stupid comments only to ignite fight. They sound just like these Japanese rightwinger and Chinese communist educated nationalist.
cm because most Koreans have (미국) 사대주의 사상 where they think the white men are superior, and the complaints from the newspaper article link on this thread doesn’t exactly make me think that they are being done wrong by the colour of their skin.
that makes me laugh, yep, I’m prejudiced against lighter skinned people!!! ..hahaha. (no arg, I’m being sarcastic)
So… you’ve never experienced the racist “stranger-korean attack” firsthand so you feel comfortable discounting others’ experiences with it? …or to stick closer to your words, you have no sympathy for such victims?
This is very interesting.
“I’ve not ever felt like I was judged or criticized”
Gawd, I’m so fucking tired of the “because I’t never happened in my presence it doesn’t exist” I’ve never seen anyone die in korea, but I’m still inclined to believe those who tell me it happens regardless of whether they are white or south asian.
“As a Korean woman myself, I have little sympathy for shaku (and others’) story about the stranger-koreans attacking their Korean female companions. ”
Hold on, is this the same person who just moments ago said “I was completely defending Bonojit Hossein that last time right” for lets remember “stranger-koreans attacking (and others’) korean female companions”
As far as I recall I didn’t ask for your sympathy that my korean female companion was verbally attacked and harrassed for being with me, but a simple benefti of the doubt that I’m not lying wouldn’t go amiss; but then of course it didn’t happen because you weren’t able to witness it.
Doing so would establish a slippery slope that definitely you and many others (myself included) would quickly slide down.
“cm because most Koreans have (미국) 사대주의 사상 where they think the white men are superior,”
I have never expeineced this, therefore I don’t believe you.
Where are your stats confirming “most koreans” beleive this.
Yuna, your dismissal of negative encounters by white people merely because they are white smacks of deeply held prejudice. Are white people asking for special treatment? No. Just to be left alone and not have to deal with encounters like this encounter described by Joshua Stanton.
Many similar stories on this thread – http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/06/09/professor-defends-his-woman-in-seoul-restaurant-lives-to-write-story-in-nyt-magazine/#comment-160015
Some people take these kinds of experiences harder than others, and the Korean women involved often feel intimidated. For myself, I use these experiences as insight into the Korean national characteristics (민족성) and I have adjusted to deal with Korean behaviors and social pathologies.
“that makes me laugh, yep, I’m prejudiced against lighter skinned people!!! ..hahaha. (no arg, I’m being sarcastic)”
Its no laughing matter. You openly admit you are not willing to believe white people accounts of their experiences, where in the same situation you are willing to beleive darker skinned persons accounts. If you can’t see the issue there…..then you have a problem…
@113 I suspected this answer, and I agree that it’s true. I’d be a liar if I didn’t admit that I benefit more from being a white American than I suffer for not being a Korean. But that’s not necessarily a guaranteed situation for whitey. And, it’s definitely not justification of dismissing the racism whites do face.
On a more light point, I’m cmm, not cm.
“Last time I gave more up to date accounts of the white kids hanging outside Seven Elven shouting “Fuck off home chinks! ” it was also deemed as irrelevant.”
Of course, its wrong, but what has it to do with the existence or otherwise of prejudice amonsts koreans in korean. Reminder again the topic is “korean racism”. Prejudice of others, does not justify prejudice by Koreans.
no doesn’t justify but doesn’t rob of its legitimate place in an argument when we are discussing what constitutes a racist behaviour.
it does to some of the retards here. in fact, they are happy to take it one step further. not only are the prejudices of others deemed as justification, but prejudices of others’ great great great great grandparents’ generation are also often used as justification.
I believe that canadian guy was stared in his jingle bells with awe and was made to feel like a gorilla. When did I say I didn’t? I just cannot feel sorry for him on the same scale I feel victims of racism that I know from other instances that’s all.
Yuna, as for you not being targeted by Korean men when you are with white male friends, that reminds me of my response on that thread at that time. In it I gave some reasons why some people are not targeted – maybe one of them applies to you.
but, that doesn’t seem to be what you were doing.
I too was angry that so many Koreans were looking at my unit when i was in the gym. When I finally got the nerve to ask somebody why they were all staring at me, he said very politely in Korean, “Dude…it’s because you have a raging erection. Seriously, man, knock it off.”
ohohohoho, Shaku, that was really good, thanks for a good laugh,
No you’re absolutely right – I don’t look like an itaewon prostitute out looking for getting it on only with the foreigners that’s true, as I have seen those, who could barely speak a word of English, strutting around with a sad-looking white guy like a trophy.
Disingenuous again, pick one funny item and say I never said I didn’t believe this (simultaneoulsy embriodering it) whilst ignoring your openly stated preference to believe south asians and defend them, but not whites in similar situations.
Was your CV incident not a racism against a non-white?
valkilmerisiceman, assuming you were not be facetious, it is totally funny that Korean men could consider a white man’s flaccid penis to be erect by Korean standards. Unintentional comedy gold, my friend.
#129 crikey you just can’t help yourself with the prejudice can you.
Where in #126 did shak suggest that girls hanging with foreigners are prostitutes?
#131 Not specifically non-white, someone of yellow or mediterranean origina may at that time have been acceptable to them.
Arghaeri, Korean women that date a western man default in Korean eyes as a 술집 여자 (a bar woman – hooker, more or less). If the Korean woman is pretty enough then they might just consider the woman as worth saving, leading to interventions by the Korean man.
Crikey! he did suggest that I was unattractive and that’s why I wasn’t accosted – it was a retaliation. I didn’t say that they were prostitutes, that I didn’t look like a prostitute.
His long cut and paste brings back, as always, what the Western people would think is attractive. If you want to play that low, yep, that’s why Koreans consternate over Suni and Woody Harrelson because a. she is so good looking or b. he is so good looking, sigh.
I should not have conjured you two to this thread it’s my own fault.
Woody Allen
And you know this how, Shak?
I gotta say that I have heard of korean girls getting accosted for hanging out with white guys. One of my Korean female friends told me, in shocked and conflicted tones, about an incident that had happened to her a week before. And yet I have never personally experienced this*. I tend to agree with the quote on #126, that its because I look like a killing machine. I shave my head and have a wildish goatee, and I’m also pretty big. Nobody messes with me. For instance, if I throw someone off the subway, they stay thrown. But not everyone has the same experience. Some of my white brothers (except Canadians, cuz they aren’t my brothers) do get the rough end of the Han-stick now and then. You you just gotta believe it yuna.
* (okay there was once at a club where some weaselly Korean dude tried to steal my girl by telling her I was an evil white guy that was going to rape her, but not quite the same. She left with me a few minutes later, which was the most exquisite fuck-you I’ve ever had the pleasure of participating in)
RJ,
See Yuna’s comment here, and you see the thought process in action.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/09/16/korean-racism-blah-blah/#comment-346121
No, Shak, you can’t see the thought process in action there… because it’s not there.
I don’t know how to even enter into this debate without someone like Shak asking for all kinds of personal details, like photos etc. So let me pre-empt that by saying that I am not going to satisfy your curiosity about my private life beyond what I will type here now.
I am a white foreign man living in Korea for some years now. Won’t say how long, but let’s say it’s long enough. I have been married to a Korean lady for quite some time, and she has Koreans and non-Koreans tell her and me that she is very attractive.
We don’t have a car, so we travel everywhere by public transport, on foot, or in a taxi.
While I am far from small, I am awkward and clumsy, and do not look like I could handle myself in a fight – lucky for me I don’t fight. I am far from tough and threatening.
Thus far (touch wood), nobody has ever said anything inappropriate to me or to my wife about our relationship (apart from her family, but we won’t go there either). I have never been attacked by a Korean.
I am not disputing that some people have suffered very nasty experiences. I am not saying they “asked for it.” I know that Metropolitican, somebody with whom Shak is very familiar, claims that there is a pattern of racism and racist attacks in Korea, and it is worsening.
I reject that, based on what I have seen and read, and on what friends and acquaintances have told me over my time in Korea.
In contrast, last night I watched a BBC documentary about racist attacks on gypsies in Hungarian villages. Molotov cocktails were used and in at least one case thugs entered a house. At least 5 Roma were killed in a string of attacks. That’s serious.
In Korea racism – such as it is – is a whole different animal. Yes, Koreans think in Ethnic terms. Yes, they often think culture is in blood/DNA. I know all that tribalist stuff.
And still, I will say, in the main, on balance, Korea is much safer than most countries, and the number of race-based physical attacks here is still very small. That could change if and when North and South Korea are united. But for now, it’s pretty good. (Caveat: I speak here as a white adult male. I know that things can be worse for people of other races and also women of any race.)
Shak, I dont’ know what to say to you. You won’t be convinced by anything that I say. But I find it amusing that you like to set yourself up as an impartial observer and arbiter, and a truly rational thinker, always calm. I don’t think you are that impartial at all.
Also, I find it curious that you occasionally like to throw in a Korean translation or two, like you have done for dual morality or national characteristics. Do you do this to show off your mad Korean skillz, or to condescend to any Koreans who might read it?
sorry to disappoint shak, but i was just joking. thought it would sound funny.
reading.Here’s the first: The biggest bias in the US today is confirmation bias – the tendency to absorb only the data that confirms one’s own partisan bias. -Mizar5
The worst qualities that the world’s animals, vegetables, and minerals have to offer must be concentrated in some areas more than others. Unfortunate when it’s a bad thing and you or your area has it.In my mind, this thread is described well by the above quote. The mindset that allows you to only see what pleases you as valid is related to selfishness and only exacerbates ridiculous snitfests like this one.We all have prejudices. You are a particularly STUPID animal (vegetable?) if you deny this. If we didn’t have them, there’d be NO borders, political parties, or segregation of any kind. The more advanced of the human race recognize this and regret behavior caused by it. That is a key component of personal growth. Some people(s) lack this self-recognition more than others. Prejudice and selfishness DO exist in Korea. Is it worse somewhere else? Maybe. Probably. But we aren’t there to experience it, so it doesn’t exist.
I did a stupid and left part of the beginning out of my post….
I’m starting to collect quotes from the Hole.Oughta be pretty entertaining reading.Here’s the first: The biggest bias in the US today is confirmation bias – the tendency to absorb only the data that confirms one’s own partisan bias. -Mizar5
Hamel, your post came up while I was typing (slowly) in notepad.
The prejudice does exist. My wife has related to me what was said TO HER by ajossi while we were out and about. It falls pretty much exactly in line with what was related in this thread. Is it racism? If the perp was thinking that his race’s purity was being sullied, I’d say it is. I’ve encountered some “Go Home Foreigner” street commentary myself.
“Crikey! he did suggest that I was unattractive and that’s why I wasn’t accosted – it was a retaliation.”
Retaliation by definition is against the aggressor, how does your calling “pretty girls” with white guys “prostitutes”, count as retaliation against Shak.
wookinponub: as I said, I don’t deny that it happens to some people some of the time.
As you sagely pointed out, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, “We all have prejudices.” It is a part of human nature. Groups that live together and share common bonds fear and distrust outsiders. I think it’s perfectly natural. I also think, as you do, that it is something people have to work through and actively fight against.
Korea has not yet found itself in a situation where there has been a stable and constant population of a large enough number of non-Koreans living here (post Japanese Colonialism) for it to be faced with that reality. It will ultimately happen, but it will take time.
“Is it racism? If the perp was thinking that his race’s purity was being sullied, I’d say it is. ”
Maybe so. These are fuzzy words to define. Is it the kind of racism that makes you fear for your life and leave the country? Not usually. I don’t think that anti-non-Korean prejudice (s0mething that exists, quite naturally) is bad enough as many make it out to be. I also don’t think it’s getting worse.
Hamel, you are making a whole bunch of assumptions here, starting with the idea that I am somehow curious about your personal life. I am not, and have never asked about it.
Yeah I know that it is much worse elsewhere, like the Congo or Rwanda or the middle east, and there are places where people get killed over race, ethnicity, or creed. Korea is in general not such a place. However, the people writing on this blog are in some way involved with Korea or Koreans, so messed up incidents in other places in the world seem far away and not so significant or relevant to their lives.
As for me, such incidents don’t bother me personally because they simply do not happen anymore. Why? Because I can speak Korean relatively fluently and they have to deal with me on a human basis, not someone they can dismiss as a stereotype. However, it still bothers me that other people have to deal with it. It bothers me more that a lot of the non-Korean speaking foreigners are completely oblivious to it happening too.
As far as you are aware, you have not had any negative incidents of this nature, and I do not dismiss your experiences. However, many people do have these experiences. Some people are very disturbed by them, while others like our host Robert tend not to take it hard.
As you for your opinion of me… well… I don’t share your animus. To me you are just another guy in front of a computer screen half way across the world.
As for Korean language usage – I translated it into Korean to make sure that we are on the same page. I don’t want to be jumped on because of a misunderstanding. BTW, no reason to show off, Koreans will say your Korean is good even when it isn’t.
Love reading this discussion. Lots of great points.
Laughing my ass off at how some posters can’t seem to make a logical
statement and prefer to give feelings and exclamation points as justification for their ideas.
Entertaining!
I can’t imagine a Korean guy will have more than a few chances in his life to see a penis more than an inch long, so I can forgive them that little treason. It does bug me when I’m trying to piss and they’ll take a good look. But shit, poor bastards ain’t got shit of their own to look at.
Except, of course, for the once relatively numerous Chinese, particularly in Incheon and Seoul and other port cities whom the Koreans summarily expelled in the 50s (or was it the early 60s?), acquiring most of their property and other assets at far less than fair value Kind of ironic that Seoul and Incheon now want to build plastic fantastic Chinatowns as instant
ghettostourist attractions.That canard has been answered by several here. You may recall that there were also “no reported serious racial incidents” in US either back when racism was accepted as the status quo. My point is about denial.
Can you cite a single “biased/stupid comment only to ignite fight”? Such as my statement in #47 , perhaps?:
Compare this to wjk’s hate-infused comment in #23:
And your own hateful comments in # 122:
Other people of Korean background, including cm and JiMong have been honest and forthcoming about the pervasiveness of racial prejudice in Korea. Yuna, with her international background is beginning to break through the pattern of denial.
Your comments, like wjk’s betray a rigid defensiveness that manifest as spiteful, hateful and personal rhetoric. Anyone who disagrees with you is racist and ignorant. Let me recommend the Buddhist practice of mindfulness: observe without judgement the emotion that wells up inside you and examine its nature, as it subsides. Look at others from an impersonal, dispassionate perspective in order to understand their perspective rather than projecting your own personal judgements onto them and imputing qualities to them that are not there.
What the posters here, Korean and foreign are attempting to explain to you is that deeply imbedded prejudice is difficult to detect in oneself, and leads to denial, which only perpetrates the the problem. Whether the subject is race, culture, nationality or any other form of group identification, prejudice is a subject that each individual needs to examine within him/herself.
Prejudice is not something new to Koreans, but frank and honest self-examination appears to be. By contrast, it is something Westerners have been doing for some time, and they have some helpful suggestions to offer. To disregard their comments based on their racial/cultural identification, is, frankly, an issue you need to question yourself about.
In another thread, I commented on a video that reveals how Arabs have been portrayed in an extremely prejudiced manner as the “other” in the American media. In this thread, I cited the racial prejudice of American conservatives, a troublesome minority.
In other words, the point people are making to you here is not that Koreans are prejudiced but that some Koreans are still in denial of their prejudices. I note this point with a sympathetic understanding, as I, myself, was guilty of not fully comprehending the extent of anti-Arab prejudice, but willingly investigated the issue and becoming aware of it, work to check the tendency within myself.
Join the human race. We would love to have you as a brother, which you are anyway – you just don’t realize it yet.
Regards,
Mizar5
don’t respond to Shaku. He is a notorious Korea hater and Japan lover.
For example, he will not even touch a subject that makes Japan look bad.
And Mizar5 is pretending to be Korean.
What are you pretending to be, wjk?
I would like to also invite you to join the human race, as well. Welcome, my brother from another mother!
I have another sock puppet.
don’t respond to penisboy. He is a notorious Japan and China hater and Korea and penis lover.
Korea has had the experience of being on the traditionally receiving end of racism in other countries? More so than any other nationality? Not sure what you are referencing here, but I have seen no evidence of any specific anti-Korean prejudice in the West. While there has been specific anti-Korean prejudice in Japan or China, this would not qualify as racism as such.
I am aware that there have been misunderstandings arguably caused by cultural conflicts, in which African Americans have percieved that they were treated unfairly by Korean shopowners, but these appear to be rather isolated incidents. African Americans do not generally espouse specifically anti-Korean sentiments.
I believe there is still a tendency to overgeneralize based on traditional animosities between Korea, Japan and China, as well as an overexaggeration of isolated incidents in the West, which tends to make Koreans oversensitive and insecure about their racial identification. But, while there are ignorant people everywhere, Koreans have not yet been singled out for prejudiced treatment in the West, so far as I know.
As for anti-Asian prejudices, the Koreans came to the West long after these practices had largely subsided, but I have observed that there is still a sense of paranoia among Korean diaspora. To be fair, many do not make the effort to fit in. Also, to be fair to the Korean diaspora, it is not always that easy to fit in in Western nations, which are not as group oriented as Korea – people generally keep to themselves and a small circle of closely knit friends. But even 2nd generation Korean Americans often exclude themselves from participation in non-Korean American circles, for better or worse.
But for those who are willing to interact with the larger community at large, friendships and associations are readily made. Again, much of what passes for racial prejudice against Koreans in the West are in fact imputed.
I’ve been called a chink countless times and got into many many uncomfortable incidents in the states. But the racism I faced was mostly in rural areas. In the cities, I definitely feel safer.
However, I think racism exists MORE in cities in Korea. The “racism” I saw in Korean rural areas was more out of ignorance than hate I thought. I see this as a problem not bc I think city folks are any smarter but bc despite the fact that they’re constant mixing with foreigners, they’re still racists.
Hagwon teachers in Korea are young, single, and not exactly rich…
Regardless of the tone of their skin, this puts them pretty low in the pecking order. You might want to consider that next time you feel slighted because you aren’t Korean.
Racism is a highly loaded term, and to a great extent has been used as a means of bashing white people who in fact are not racists by generalizing that they are, by virtue of their race, racist. In other words, the charge that “white people are racists” is a bogus and racist attack.
Perhaps some of the white people hearing this have countered similarly that Koreans, by virtue of being Korean are racist. From there it is easy for the discussion to devolve into an ad hominem pissing match of “who’s a racist?”
Damn… I get my customary 6 1/2 hours of sleep and it’s turned into a raging California brush fire in here…
It’s too late for me to dive in again, but I’ll make three responses.
1) @ red sparrow # 1,
Your view is a pretty common one here at TMH. I address it here and here.
2) @ Wedge #3,
If you care to take a look, I did a decent job of addressing what I view as flaws in Lankov’s views in the second part of here.
3) @ Arghaeri in #89 and 94,
Yeah, you are right. South Africa was a Dutch colony way before it was a British colony. To be honest with you, my European history is a bit spotty since I haven’t studied it in depth for awhile. Still, Britain’s role in slavery was extensive in the 15th to 18th centuries.
I guess my point is that no nation really had a clean hand when it comes to the issue of slavery. Hell, even Africans don’t. Africa is rich in resources but full of all kinds of nasty diseases for human beings. Europeans could not penetrate the interior of said continent so they needed, ahem… African partners to act as slavery middlemen.
15th century? Damn, I meant 17th and 18th centuries.
Lots of laughs on this thread for sure.
Stating that there is racism is Korea does not imply that it exists to a lesser degree or is non-existent elsewhere.
Stating that it does exist and is worse elsewhere does not trivialize and negate the fact that it exists in Korea.
“It never happened to me” does not mean it doesn’t exits.
“It happened to me” does not mean that it is prevalent.
Some dumbass who gives an account of racism (when he clearly has no idea what it means) does not discount or trivialize all other encounters that may truly be racist in nature. (For this last one, I don’t blame the dumbass, I blame the pussification of Western Society. Nobody can say or do anything anymore without some jackass claiming that it is racist or sexist or some other kind of “ist” in nature. Nobody knows what is acceptable anymore and by default claims ***ism if something happens that makes them feel bad or uncomfortable by a person who looks different.)
Suck it up, muffin.
The Goat,
Yes, it’s always interesting to see people bring American race politics into a discussion about Korean society.
I’ve not said it didn’t happen. I’ve not said I didn’t believe that it happened. What I have been saying from the beginning is that it sits like a pitiful whinge of a charge when compared to what I would term as racist attack. I wouldn’t classify the interest one gets sometime, going around with a non-Korean guy as a racist attack, but that’s probably because I take a more indulgent and understanding attitude towards busybody ajossis and halabijis. And it’s true, I haven’t exactly places where a young Korean guy would tell you don’t go out with this foreigner dude -he’s only using you straight to my face. I’m waiting for that day to happen so that I can set the offender straight, but it hasn’t yet.
halabijis -> halabujis.
When some taxi drivers try to raise the issues, I just joke them away flat. I’m sure I discussed this in another thread.
no not more so than any other coloured people.
Your still in denial Yuna, “I was completely defending Bonojit Hossein that last time right” followed by, “I wouldn’t classify the interest one gets sometime, going around with a non-Korean guy as a racist attack”. So why does Bonojit get your support, but whites suffering almost identical incidents do not.”
At the time my much earlier reflections on your admitted prejudice in eralier posts I wasn’t really serious, however I now realise that you are indeed full of ingrained prejudice.
Your still in denial, talking about the “interest one gets sometime” in what way do you classify verbal and physical attacks in public “mere interest”
Actually, you’re wrong wjk, he will touch it but he will touch it with a different ruler where he would dismiss debito crying racism, to be a whinger.
I blame the pussification of Western Society.
Great example on another post here, with the person who queried the term “sniggering” but edited it to “sni*gering” as if it somehow had racist connotations.
“Still, Britain’s role in slavery was extensive in the 17th to 18th centuries.”
Never denied, see above, but the point is cultures change and those who followed were at the forefront of a conscience movement to end it.
“Europeans could not penetrate the interior of said continent so they needed, ahem… African partners to act as slavery middlemen.”
They could but there was little need, african slavery was well established, just needed new delivery points on the west coast, as opposed to the traditional and long established arab slave routes eastward to western asia.
Let me be in denial then. I hang out with *men*. Korean *men* and non-Korean *men* They will not employ the term racism so easily.
In the case of Bonojit Hossein, I know that there really is a deep ingrained racist feelings towards South Asians and South East Asians, the Vietnamese brides, and yes, even the people of Chinese origin (Sperwer’s right) – the poor labourers and the coloured economic migrants people from poorer countries – that Koreans have, which they are trying hard to get rid of.
there we go again. Korean men, gay, micro dick, etc.
I’ve seen a lot of dicks in a clinical setting. The only kind that stood out was the dick I couldn’t find, a Viet dick, and the dick that looked like it was too long a dong, a black dick. And I’ve seen Korean dicks and white dicks. I think most of you white guys are grossly exaggerating your dick sizes while grossly undervaluing Korean dicks. The reason is clear. Calling Korean gasus gay, and constantly claiming your dick is the liberator to Korean women? You are after Korean pussy.
I look at my dick and I got plenty to rip into.
I look at the poor white guy, demented, and 85 years old, who needed another wound dressing change in his perinieum, and his dick is just about right about 1 inch long, completely flaccid.
Also, I’ve had a 35 year old white male, who asked an Indian female medical student to exit the room, while I examined his prostate, because as it turned out, his dick was about 2 inches long, flaccid, and his belly was classic beer gut.
Another 300 pound white dude, had a dick that looked a baby dick, and he was claiming he had ‘no sexual problems’ and he has ‘regular sex round the cycle’.
Post your dick pictures.
“I know that there really is a deep ingrained racist feelings towards South Asians and South East Asians, the Vietnamese brides, and yes, even the people of Chinese origin (Sperwer’s right)”
“Koreans have yet to form a prejudice with a bunch of foreigners who’ve settled in their country apart from the US army men and the English teachers”
Can this be the same Yuna?
paging href cleanup control for #171
yes I missed it out, well done for spotting You-Forgot-Poland Arg,
“I hang out with *men*. Korean *men* and non-Korean *men* They will not employ the term racism so easily.”
A the “real ***** fallacy”. You really are exploring the depths now aren’t you. It never happened in your presence, therefore it never happened to anyone else, and if it did they were not were not “real” men. So it doesn’t count.
You do realise that in the same comment you have supported Bonojit Hossein, whilst simultaneously declaring him not to be a “real man”, since a real man wouldn’t have declared his experience racism.
“touch it but he will touch it with a different ruler where he would dismiss debito crying racism, to be a whinger.”
Pot calling the kettle black?
Yuna, when are you going to answer #170?
“You-Forgot-Poland”
Que?
This is what you would write to
Are you calling Shaku black?
or you might say.
“Are you calling Shaku a kettle?? Oh no! it’s not retaliation. You weren’t attacked. ”
& that’s why I realize I ain’t getting anywhere arguing with you.
Your knowledge of english is far too good to expect to get away with that merely cause you’re korean.
You will touch it but with a different ruler whereby a white person relating experiences of prejudice is a whinger, but a coloured person is relating the same experience has your support and sympathy. i.e. “The pot calling the kettle black”
You aren’t getting anywhere because you don’t have an argument, and are resorting to more and more desperate rhetorical whimsy.
a parody.
I am a Korean woman with a white American boyfriend.
I have loved him long time.
Koreans are very, very racist.
Koreans in Seoul are the most racist.
In the US, there is no racism. I can walk in Harlem at night. No problem. No race issues at all.
I can walk inside Detroit, wearing a bikini top. No worries there.
In the US, there is no such thing as a ‘predominantly black American hospital.’ In Harlem Hospital, and Howard University hospital, there are lots of white people, too, I swear.
In Seoul, Samsung hospital is very racist. You only see Koreans there. No white people. In Thongtong hospital in Seoul, you see all the colored people, and they lack supplies.
As you can see, Korea is very racist. In Korea, they have racially segregated inner cities and housing projects.
My GI told me he will take me to America.
But, for tonight, I must love him long time.
I was being you arg to see if it was fun. It wasn’t fun.
Summary of argument:
Arghaeri:
Non-koreans, including whites experience prejudice in Korea from Koreans.
Yuna,
Only American GI’s and English Teacher experience prejudice in korea.
Several examples of prejudice follow:
Yuna’s argument:
Oh OK, not only American GI’s and English Teachers, but south asians and coloured and chinese too.
Yuna’s argument continues:
But whites do not suffer it, cause I’ve been with white people and its never happened in my presence.
Other examples of prejudice follow:
OK I accept things may happen but if it happens to whites its not prejudice they’re “not real men” they’re “whingers”.
Oh and anycase they’re not allowed to complain about it because they’re great, great, great, great, great grandfathers did something bad 200 years ago.
Yeah, I can see why your arguments are going so well….
a parody.
GI says my brother’s dick is too small.
GI is always right.
Sometimes I think GI misses American breasts.
Maybe if I love GI long time, my breasts will get bigger.
GI sometimes smells bad.
and can see why your self esteem is so low you feel the need to try be someone else…
and it wouldn’t be fun because you’re so far off from getting the real experience….now that you would find fun……
Europeans did not bring slavery to Africa. They merely piggybacked on an indigenous institution with a thousand + year history in which Arabs and Africans enslaved other Africans – just as “The West” did not bring prostitution to Asia or Korea, where it had long been practiced under the aegis of indigenous entrepreneurs especially the Chinese and the Japanese, who – it is true – even before the colonial Period pioneered the “industrialization” prostitution in Korea on the model already undertaken in Japan (of course the Chinese did too, but their influence was much less extensive and usually limited to “Chinatowns” and in any event was overtaken by that of the Japanese). But in doing so, it should be noted, prior to the Second Sino-Japanese War, they for the most part imported Japanese working girls, rather than “corrupting” local women) and restricted access to them to Japanese nationals and other foreigners. The long-existing Korean trade (each district magistrate e.g., was provided with a harem of ~10 party girls, paid out of the govt purse – see the diaries of Yun Chi-ho where it is documented that this was still going on in the early 20th century) on its own initiative then played follow the leader in the way it organized itself and, of course, it expanded as modernization facilitated the the growth and diversification of the market.
@#175. OH. MY. GOD. wjk. You never cease to creep me out.
I think that’s a FAIL in American political correctness 101.
Say that to Metropolitan’s face next time, vis a vis, s’il vous plait.
Yuna,
Look at what I have written. Do I employ the term racism easily? I have not used the word racism except to speculate that you would use it if white men were doing the same things to Koreans.
You are showing some serious double standards here. Basically you are saying that white people and their Korean female companions (whether they be girl friends, wives, or friends) that suffer harassment from Korean men are just girlie men and if they talk about it, then they are whining girlie men. If it happened to Koreans, you would employ the term ‘racism’.
I think the word for this is hypocrite. However, because such beliefs are widely held in Korea, I think it is the dual morality I was talking about before.
do you know what Liberia is?
It was supposedly a humane gesture to Africans in USA to return to Africa, where there will be no discrimination.
I can easily parallel that to Japan telling Koreans to go back to Korea, South or North.
Needless to say, those who went back and settled in Liberia should be probably regretting and grinding their teeth big time.
In contrast, South Korea has done pretty ok, although many Zanichis didn’t have the balls go back to Korea.
where’s Korea’s Liberia?
where’s Korea’s Harlem?
where’s Korea’s Compton?
where’s Korea’s Watts?
where’s Korea’s Oakland?
where’s Korea’s East St. Louis?
where’s Korea’s Gary, Indiana?
where’s Korea’s gated and armed residential complex?
help me out, white brother. Korea is so racist. Most racist country in the world.
So we agree Arg. Thanks for summing up my argument, and telling me I have a low self esteem as well. And no, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve written, therefore yes, I’m hypocritical and that makes me a Korean according to Shaku.
Still I would not conclude that Korea was a racist country towards the whites, based on the span of the long thread, (title, links to the article, instances given) which has been what I’ve been trying to say all along. If you cannot accept that by default the whites have a special (elevated) position when they come to Korea, which is nowhere near the position that the coloured people have, then I cannot add anymore.
Millions of Zanichi did return to Korea after WWII. Shortly afterwards there was a war on the peninsula and… who would want to return to a war torn South Korea or a war torn Communist north?
They thought it was better to go through the society that was racist but at least rebuilding and not torn apart like post 1953 Korea. Some Zanichis gave a lot back to Korea like Shin Kyuk-Ho.
I hope so!
I found this while trying to look for Taylor Swift and Kanye West.
Look what I found guys.
Chinese guy in Canada, pulling a William Hung and white people loving it !
http://www.youtube.com/user/pyrobooby
I don’t find anything particularly entertaining. Poor acting. Bad acting. Madea/Eddie Murphy/In Living Color/Chris Rock/John Leguizammo or whatever type of same race making fun of same race style self deprecication comedy that has a huge following among white people. It gives them a release for all their suppressed racist thoughts.
this guy is a shit head and another William Hung, shaming all East Asians, especially men. He should be dragged out and beaten to a pulp. He’s Canadian. Piece of shit William Hung.
Jamie Foxx used to do this and Wanda shit before, too. He curiously stopped after winning a golden trophy.
Eddie Murphy in my mind, was always a self race hating racist. Ditto Chris Rock.
Thanks for the link, wjk. Funny.
So, the lesson to be learned here is that Koreans aren’t particularly racist and that wjk looks at dicks for a living.
… in Alabama.
“If you cannot accept that by default the whites have a special (elevated) position when they come to Korea, which is nowhere near the position that the coloured people have, then I cannot add anymore.”
This is one of your problems, you make accusations without any foundation. Where have I denied that coloured people suffer korean prejudice more than whites. What I object to, and have argued against, is people like you telling us that prejudicial acts that I and others have seen and experienced first hand are not and cannot be prejudicial simply because we’re not coloured, and do not exist because you were not there to personally witness them.
If you actually bothered to remember the things that I have actually written, instead of your imagined memories of things based on the fact that I’m white and don’t automatically accept everything you say, you would remember the examples of prejudice I have seen in the workplace relating to my south-east asian staff. Such as having to instruct the administration staff to put in place the entitlements given under korean law or company rules. [This happened to less senior white staff also, but to a lesser degree].
Shakuhachi: I feel that you are being disingenuous. I seem to recall you asking enough times in previous threads for interlocutors’ (not necessarily my own) personal details such as race, etc. Then there was your zeal in finding out all you could about the Metropolitician and putting a pic of him on your blog. I don’t feel you are above board, and I don’t think my assumption was unwarranted.
I can see now why Robert, who has some pretty firm views on this, doesn’t get involved in these debates. Because they are long and ultimately pointless. People say things that are often – seemingly willingly – misunderstood, ignored or misconstrued by others.
It’s as if the heat of the feelings in this thread warps the coherence of the discussion, like a plastic trinket melting in an oven.
What I don’t always understand is why Robert posts these stories in the first place, when he knows that they will inevitably create more heat than light, and lead to these interminable snipe-fests. Is it all about the hits, Marmot?
“I think that’s a FAIL in American political correctness 101.
Say that to Metropolitan’s face next time, vis a vis, s’il vous plait.”
Happily, but then I scarcely think that Metro is so ill informed as not to know of the historical african slavery and the arab slave trade routes eastwards, and that later a great proportion of the africans slaves exported to the Americas were captured and subsequently sold to the slavers by other africans.
In point of fact, I don’t believe these posts actually lead to high hit counts. Higher numbers of comments, yes. More hits? Not so much. The ones that drive up the hit count are usually porn/prostitution-related, and then, only rarely.
The reason I post them is because they’re fun. And the comment snipefests can be fun, too. And besides, while they might create more heat than light, you can learn a lot from heat, too. Hey, Yuna’s comments alone are worth the price of admission.
Let’s go back to the basics shall we? The reason I started commenting was because I was so tired of your “Just because it happens elsewhere..” response with regards to racism in Korea that I heard in previous threads before. I was trying to say that we are not using “just because it happens elsewhere” to justify the prejudice in Korea, but rather, to put into perspective what constitutes a racist act in different places, which is what we have been discussing up till now.
I agree with RK. These flamewars are hilarious. I just like to sit back and bask in the warmth of the stupidity.
……constitutes a racist act in different places, which is what we have been discussing up till now .and whether that spans centuries, continents, is not irrelevant, that is the whole reason for history. Not to justify our prejudice today, which is what some accuse the Koreans of doing, but to learn from it. I apologize on behalf of the Korean guys who come upto you and your wife with “Lay off our women” …However, in that situ which seldom happened to me, (obviously because I am so unattractive, or because the friend I’m with is actually George Clooney) I can hold my own and usually get the Korean guy to back off having enlightened him with my humour and language skills and confidence, and therefore it just doesn’t bother me.
I forgot to add physical attractiveness and charm..
Robert, somehow, I am doubting that was a compliment..
Often I have urges to go all out like wjk. but I don’t have a penis – That’s one of the reasons I love him so much, not because he has one, but because he goes all out without any reserve.
Actually, it was.
Hamel,
The metropolitician was a worthy tar-baby for my opposition. You just aren’t there yet.
The metropolitician understands Korean, and you do not. How on earth do you think you deserve consideration on the level of the metropolitician when you cannot even communicate properly with the people around you, in a country you say you have lived in for years?
Anyway, everything with you is a personal attack. I am not interested in returning your hostility. I don’t discount your experiences, but how about not forcing your world-view on others.
Robert, *blush* – I’m still not sure though. I’m not that proud myself for these inane quips that I make, but sometimes it’s just like an illness, innit.
Hamel, don’t have to reply to Shaku. These flame wars, they’re like black holes- they suck you in, they do.
Oh no! Shaku, arguing you don’t understand the Korean language therefore cannot understand Korean is often what us Koreans are guilty of according to the non-Koreans. Watch out, you’re fast becoming a Korean.
If a Korean walks up to a foreigner and says a bunch of things the foreigner doesn’t understand, how is the foreigner going to have an understanding of what happened? Same for any other people/language. Are you disputing it, Yuna?
“The reason I started commenting was because I was so tired of your “Just because it happens elsewhere..” response with regards to racism in Korea that I heard in previous threads before.”
Strange how when one argument falls away, you claim to have been making another point entirely. Not to mention your disingenuousness considering you actually “started commenting” in support of of Koreansentry’s assertion that “it’s much worse elsewhere” (so thats alright then).
“I was trying to say that we are not using “just because it happens elsewhere” to justify the prejudice in Korea, but rather, to put into perspective what constitutes a racist act in different places, which is what we have been discussing up till now.”
Again disingenuous reinventing of the wheel, you started out denying that prejudice does not exist except GI’s and English Teachers. Denying somethin exists is not the same as putting it in perspective.
And again if you actually remembered what I have previous written instead of what you imagine I’ve written, you would know that I consider korea to be a great place to live, and generally physically pretty safe, in comparison to some places in my own home town/country, but as we’ve already established you’re too lazy to go back and check.
“Not to justify our prejudice today, which is what some accuse the Koreans of doing, but to learn from it.”
So telling us you won’t accept opinions from citizens of previous slave trading countries, is learning from history now is it?
Keep on establishing, Arg.
Sayonara.
“I apologize on behalf of the Korean guys who come upto you and your wife with “Lay off our women” …”
See more fakery, you have already amitted you have no sympathy, and then in a disingenuous act of “apologising” (which I might add was not requested, only accpetance that I might not actually be lying just because I’m white) you again twist words to play things down to “Lay off our women” white guy, not real man, whinging level, rather than the facts being; phyiscally in your face threatening and insulting agression “you fucking whore catch yourself a rich american….etc.etc…”
You established, I noted.
“(obviously because I am so unattractive, or because the friend I’m with is actually George Clooney) I can hold my own and usually get the Korean guy to back off having enlightened him with my humour and language skills and confidence, and therefore it just doesn’t bother me.”
See now you’re attriuting Shak remarks to me, and at the same time inferring that my wife has no skill in her native language nor any sense of humour.
“and therefore it just doesn’t bother me.”
It doesn’t bother you, because you’ve never experienced it.
Peace.
Time for the award ceremony.
To WangKon, and Marmot go the amazing aplomb award.
Aliceinwonderland, the compassion and common sense award.
Koreansentry, the good sense to back down in the face of overwhelming logic award.
Arghaeri, Shak, Yuna, the sincerity award for fighting the good fight with persistence, conviction and intelligence.
Wedge, Granfaloon, SomeguyinKorea, the wit and wisdom award.
Hamel, KrZ, the bemused spectator award.
red sparrow, Darth Babaganoosh, Bek-du boy, NewYorkTom, best supporting arguments.
To Gregory Curley, exit86, pbowers goes the just-couldn’t resist-a-penis-joke award.
wjk, the furious latent homo prize.
Mizar, the rare gem of dharma.
Arghaeri,
Good on you for not accepting the fake apology. To give an apology, one has to be qualified to give it.
Like Joshua Stanton said, there are good sides to Korea, and these should be known. However, these things should be made known to people before they come to Korea too, especially if their traveling companion is an Asian female.
Shakuhachi: yes Tom Sawyer, I would love to paint your fence for you. Here, hand me that brush!
That’s the funniest thing I have seen you say in a long time. Have you even actually lived in Korea? I mean, have you spent long periods of time living and working on the Korean peninsula? I think most of your “observations” extend no further than Campsie, Strathfield or Eastwood and a couple of trips here. Yet you try to pass that off as “knowledge.”
Just because I used to watch a lot of AFKN and have American friends doesn’t make me an expert on American culture – although I do pretty well in US pop culture trivia quizzes.
And what is it, again, that you think should be made known to people before they come to Korea, especially if their traveling companion is an Asian female? I’m keenly interested in what I should know, having spent over a decade in Korea, much of it with an Asian female.
RJ,
This -
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/09/16/korean-racism-blah-blah/#comment-346110
I see. For example, in the same way that you have used the experiences of, say, Debito as insight into the Japanese national characteristics (民族性), and adjusted to deal with Japanese behaviors and social pathologies?
Debito’s experiences are not useful to me as he is a perpetual victim. However, my own experiences have taught me how to deal with Japanese people.
Racism in Japan? Sure. But Debito identifies the wrong problems, or wrongly identifies problems.
In any event, playing turnabout on Japan doesn’t really bother me at all. I am not pro-Japan except in the sense that I often disagree with Koreans.
See my comment here for an example of something that could be problematic (but Debito doesn’t touch on).
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=12696
My experiences in Korea were pretty much like Hamel’s. Thanks to the internet I was always expecting something bad to happen but it never did. I do feel cheated, as if I never got to know the true Korea. But then there are other things that ought to be in the guidebook that I didn’t experience either, like climbing up Jirisan. I guess I’ll just have to go back.
Arghaeri, I don’t how I’d react to some angry ajosshi taking out his bad experiences on my girlfriend or wife. What do you think is the correct response?
WJK
I knew he’d be asking for my dick pic at some pt. All this time he keeps saying Koreans are not homos with microdicks but tells people to send their dick picks. 기가막혀. Now who’s ruining it for all East Asians now, you dipshit?
I dont know what you have against dentists but my pops an oral surgeon with a phD. Now, I know some holier than thou doctors feel like oral surgeons arent real doctors but I dont know why you think I should be ashamed of his job or something. That’s a typical fucked-up Korean view if you ask me.
“What does your dad do?” Why do Koreans always ask that? What does that have to do with anything? I’m my own man…and please dont tell me what your dad does. Obviously, he’s sexually molested you which explains your behavior.
I never asked for your dick pic.
You want to engage, at least use truth.
I would imagine there’s nothing really to look at.
Don’t tarnish my record.
As of today, the record for smallest is the Vietnamese guy.
“Dont tarnish my record” he says. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wait…HAHAHAHAHAHA. You do have some humor in ya.
Damn, how many Viet dicks have you SEEN?
Koreans are racists now. They have to be thoroughly educated that the golden rule applies to all human beings. Korean education system, being so nationalistic, has not address this point.
However, things are getting better. Anti-racism education is done through TV broadcasts. For example, a TV program like “MiSuDa”(Tattletale between beauties) can bridge much misunderstanding between peoples.
I expect that 10 years from now Koreans will be much more international in their thinking. Just give some time.
Koreans will soon catch to the Japanese. They always have.
“I dont know what you have against dentists but my pops an oral surgeon with a phD.”
Well, I sure hope so. Would you trust a high school dropout to do dental work on you?
““What does your dad do?” Why do Koreans always ask that? ”
Have fun with it. Tell them he’s the godfather…On second thought, maybe you should just nod and smile.
Hi, I am new and just passing by, don’t know the dynamics of the posters here, and don’t feel like taking sides in this “argument” (if there are sides, I’m on the non-racist side… Isn’t everyone? Why is this an argument?). This particular comment from Mizar5 [#158] in response to yuna, however, seemed to itch for a response.
“Korea has had the experience of being on the traditionally receiving end of racism in other countries? More so than any other nationality? Not sure what you are referencing here, but I have seen no evidence of any specific anti-Korean prejudice in the West.”
Why does it have to be specific anti-Korean prejudice? Acts motivated by prejudice against Asians, or people of color in general, affect victims regardless of their specific nationality. A Korean can be subjected to racism even if the motivation is not specifically anti-Korean. If as yuna hopes, Koreans experiencing racism abroad leads to a faster learning curve in Korea regarding the undesirability of racism, thus shortening the time they might have otherwise needed to reduce racism in their own system, then good for them. I don’t know if it will work that way, but I’m on the side of hoping for the speeding up of progress. At least I don’t see the value in laughing at the idea and dismissing it by making distinctions between Korean-specific and non-Korean-specific racism, which have little practical relevance.
“While there has been specific anti-Korean prejudice in Japan or China, this would not qualify as racism as such.”
What makes anti-Korean prejudice in Japan or China not racism (other than the technical distinction of race-based vs. ethnicity-based prejudice)? Is there something not as severe about anti-Korean prejudice in Japan or China that in your eyes does not raise it to the level of racism? If so, it seem that you are making the same argument as the Koreans here who argue that anti-white-foreigner prejudice, while a problem, does not rise to the level of racism, or may be motivated of factors other than racism (and I say “anti-white-foreigner” because Koreans seem to acknowledge that there is racism toward dark-skinned people and consider it a large problem).
Not all the comments pointing out that there are more extreme forms of racism in other parts of the world are “other countries are more racist, so it’s okay for Koreans to be a little racist” comments. Comparisons can be relevant in a discussion about what actually constitutes racism, although maybe not in a discussion about what forms and degrees of racism should be tolerated. Obviously, no form of racism is acceptable, although not all forms of racism can be made illegal.
Now, for my own comparison, bringing in America, I grew up thinking that America was the bastion of civil rights, and I still think that Americans have been educated to have more sensitivity toward racial issues than the rest of the world. However, even in America, it is not illegal for a private individual to call another person racial epithets in the street, unless doing so incites violence or amounts to assault. It is also not illegal for a private individual to call his co-worker racial epithets in the workplace, unless the pattern of harassment is so repetitive and severe that a hostile work environment has been created.
Thus, as a society, Americans allow some forms of racism to go unpunished, and despite the progress that has been made, some issues are still extremely difficult to resolve. Ultimately, the American experience shows that dealing with racism is an extremely complex process even in a country that has seen great progress. Knowing this, it frustrates me to see so many commenters (and I realize that these posters are not necessarily American, but there seem to be some Americans) to be quick to take on attitudes of moral superiority and to fail to acknowledge the issues are more complex than what their “Racism! Racist! How horrible, this country is so racist!” comments convey. Also, it is usually unproductive to accuse others of being racists, especially in an insulting, belittling manner – it just leads to people digging their heels in and become defensive. In my view, there is racism, but there is no such thing as a racist, a racist country, or a racist race. We all have implicit biases; some of us just recognize them and correct ourselves. Even those who try don’t succeed 100% of the time. All we can do is keep trying.
Good comments, greenstone. I appreciate your comments.
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