Mixed results for ROK’s KSLV-1 program. The rocket did indeed get to a desired altitude of 300+ km, but failed to launch its satellite at the appropriate time, thus it did not reach orbit. The problem was blamed on a software glitch.
The only possible silver lining in this cloud could be that South Korea showed North Korea certain regional neighbors that they could send 100 kg payloads deep into the atmosphere.
{ 129 comments… read them below or add one }
Mixed results for ROK’s KSLV-1 program. The rocket did indeed get to a desired altitude of 300+ km, but failed to launch its satellite at the appropriate time, thus it did not reach orbit. The problem was blamed on a software glitch.
The software glitch was responsible for the launch delay not the failure of the satellite to reach orbit. You’re conflating two different things.
Furthermore, I do not understand why they decided to put a satellite on an unproven rocket. This was supposed to be a rocket test not a regular mission.
However, it does sound rather Korean, doesn’t it? Instead of having seperate rocket and satellite tests, why not do both at the same time! The Russians must have gone ape shit when some high ranking ajosshi matter-of-factly said that.
The other problem lies in the fact that this two-stage rocket was developed by two different teams, a Russian team who completed the lower stage and engines while a Korean team did the upper stage, which held the satellite. Anytime you have a project being run like that there’s bound to be mismanagement and confusion. The Russians should have just provided the designs and expertise as consultants while the Koreans manufactured and assembled the rocket and it should have all been just one team.
The Russians should have just provided the designs and expertise as consultants…
Ah, there in lies the rub. The Russians didn’t want to give the Koreans ANY design specs for the first stage because they were afraid of reverse engineering by the Koreans.
I’m actually surprised at this failure. I would have thought that if any country was ready to join the ranks of the world’s aerospace powers, I would be Korea.
What I don’t understand though is why, a half century after sputnik, Korea can’t get a measly 100 kg satelite into orbit. It’s not like this stuff is rocket science.
Oh, wait…
DLB
Here’s a nice HD video of the launch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0JtHMGac2U
Ouch… this isn’t good:
NARO rocket was not insured!
#5, You are probably surprised because you have heard about “Korea is number 1!” many times.
It appears KARI was a bit over-ambitious with the second stage of the rocket as well. They opted for a three-axis stabilized upper stage instead of a single-axis spin stabilized design, which is less riskier.
Actually, the silver lining(s) are that Korea demonstrated that it can’t get anything of this sort off the ground at all – they had to buy the lift-off from the Russians – and that they can’t get anything into orbit on their own either (which also means they likely can’t effectively target anything).
It seems that the cause of the partial failure was the inproper separation of the fairing;
http://news.kukinews.com/article/view.asp?page=1&gCode=cul&arcid=0921399331&code=30807000&cp=nv1
I guess the Russians can breathe a sigh of relief.
# 10,
If true, it’s amazing that the Japanese even worry about North Korean missiles. They shouldn’t spend a dime on THAAD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_High_Altitude_Area_Defense
… but at the end of the day I think they will…
Interesting what that comment demonstrates about the author’s failure to distinguish between the DPRK and the ROK, his (at best) disingenuousness in his knee-jerk jibe at the Japanese, and what it implies about his views about the NORK nukes. Are you one of those not insignificant number of Koreans who don’t think it’s fair to denuke the NORKS, because its nukes are “Korea’s” nukes? And all from someone who’s nominally a US citizen, to boot.
Sperwer,
If the North Koreans in their paranoid bamboo curtain can build a rocket that the Japanese can be scared of, how is it that their infinitely more technologically advanced cousins down south can’t eventually “get anything of this sort off the ground at all..”?
Who’s the one breaking out with the knee-jerk jibe now?
Sure the South Koreans got help from the Russians to get the first booster phase unit built. The U.S. and the Chinese turned the Koreans down. Btw, did not the Americans and the Russians get help from German scientists for the Mercury and R-7 Semyorka projects?
hate to burst bubbles here but this effort is nothing short of an ‘epic failure.’ First off, purchasing technology that korea has no control or ownership of (russian rockets) and then seeing your home built satellite become another piece of orbital junk does not a great space-faring nation, make.
I’d agree it was an epic failure. Hell, it should be on fail.org.
Better luck next time? Hopefully so.
However, speaking of failure, I think this clip provides a little perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm5SZp7PGEg&feature=related
Possibly one of my top 5 Onion Article:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/47977
I thought of the Korean phrase “Kurumyun Kurutchi” as I’d had zero expectation when I saw that matt/mat/matte paint and the ugly font.
This was first space rocket launch for South Korea. Last I check first Chinese rocket launch killed 6 people.
Well you’re asking the right question for a change.
So? Korea still isn’t “just as good as” – that limp riposte of the Koreaphile when his rendition of Frank’s My Way turns out to be laughbaly false; there’s still a difference between getting some help from German scientists and buying the whole kit and caboodle outright – a distinction, I understand that – like almost any sort of critical ratiocination, the han-addled can’t get their heads around.
We won the space race because our Germans were better than the Sov’s Germans. Nothing to be ashamed of in that.
In terms of rocket technology, South Korea is still in 1958-60. They will have their failures. I’ve admitted this, how is that being a Koreaphile? Remember my comment about this whole fiasco should be on fail.org?
In addition to Dr. Wernher von Braun and his team, the U.S. had a lot of these lying around in Northern Europe to tinker with.
Anyways, all nations take logical steps along the way before they make a major technology practical. There are missteps along the way. There always are. Hopefully you learn from them. Your blatant sarcasm of the aforementioned obvious only serve to display you cultural insensitivity and historical ignorance, not any “han-addled” on my side. Han-addle? Like Dubya, you are making up words.
It was a total failure because we are just crap. We have no foundation in fundamental science, and rocket science needs foundation, which we are neglecting to invest in.
그러면 그렇지.. or another favourite of the Korean football commentators:
: 슈팅!! – and when it hits the post: “네~~, 그럴 줄 알았습니다..”
I think EVERYONE should de-nuclearize *including* N.Korea.
I do find it quite funny when Japanese have 호들갑/over-the-top reaction with regards to the North Koreans, but I think that’s just because their character is to be careful, cautious, and assume the worst, like they do with everything else, which is a good thing. I mean, come on, c.f. to not having an insurance on a rocket launch?
On the other hand, maybe the people of Daaah-win should get a large umbrella to protect themselves from these damned gooks. Up north, down south, sheesh what are they like?
LOL.
I regard countries and people who speak and behave like petulant adolescents for what they are, not opportunities for PC baby-sitting.
The Shrub (barely) got Cs at Yale, where he roomed with an acquaintance of mine. I got As at a respectable Ivy. I’m entitled to make up words, especially since, unlike the Shrub’s, my neologisms work.
Oh, and as far as historical ignorance is concerned please acquaint yourself with at least the Wikipedia article on Robert Goddard before you continue to blather on about the German origins of the US missile program.
I regard countries and people who speak and behave like petulant adolescents for what they are…
Well, South Korea is not Haiti or Somalia. It does not export refugees or terrorists. It’s a country that’s come a long way in the past 40 years. I think your summary judgment of 48 million people is at best incomplete and at worse vindictive. Hence, my inquiry in any other reasons more personal in nature to your predisposed bête noire towards an entire nation.
Btw, you shouldn’t assume just because I don’t mention Goddard that I don’t know who he is. Furthermore, I never said that the American rocket program was originated by the Germans. I said that they could not have gotten there without German help.
South Korea has come a long way in the past 40 years – with a lot of help from its increasingly unacknowledged friends. It no longer exports political refugees or terrorists, but still sees a exodus (albeit a diminishing one) of economic refugees and unwanted children. It has progressed precisely to petulant adolescent ethno-nationalism.
BTW, for a guy who presumes to criticize other’s neologisms, you really ought to learn the proper ordinary syntax of terms like bete noire. LOL.
But yeah, Korea, north and south, ARE a couple of America’s tar babies (I can’t wait to hear the pc reaction to that! Bring it!)
But you couldn’t bring yourself to provide the whole, balanced story, either, could you, since it would have taken the already stale gas out of your clumsy levelling rhetoric.
As for my “personal” motives, I simply have a physical aversion to cant, whatever its race, creed, color or nation. Happy now, Dr. Phil?
#20
“there’s still a difference between getting some help from German scientists and buying the whole kit and caboodle outright – a distinction, I understand that – like almost any sort of critical ratiocination, the han-addled can’t get their heads around.”
Yeah, there is also a distinction between me buying a new car someone else built, “the whole kit and caboodle outright” and someone else who built there own car in a garage. So what of it?
If you’re that dense Marc, I don’t have the time to explain it to you.
#27: Yeah, unappreciative allies is why I tell the blokes at McD’s I want freedom fries, and using the same metric, get me some freedom BBQ afterwards.
Also, rocket science has been pretty standardized since the 60′s (speaking of the Soviets, interestingly enough, a Jewish signals prof once joked about how if there were no Jews, they’d be fending off the Nazi’s with cavalry, let alone launching rockets); more science goes into planes and electronics these days. What is just as important are environmental predictors; ie. pressure, wind, etc as the rocket travels the atmosphere. This isn’t something you can just calculate, it has to be just be measured over a long period of time. Launch sites like Baikonur are chosen specially due to close to constant enviro patterns. The Russians can share all mechanical know how they want (which, you could probably pull off the net these days thanks to sloppy security), but it ain’t going to do squat. It’s a sad case of Koreans jumping the gun (most likely due to overeager superiors who want to brag or want to cut costs) and not letting the bookies take their time on calculations.
Well, ok, but i prefer the decisions not to let em have missile technology, apaches, etc.
#29
Calm down Sperwer. If you bothered to read:
“YEAH, there is ALSO a DISTINCTION between me buying a new car someone else built, “the whole kit and caboodle outright” and someone else who built there own car in a garage.”
I acknowledged that there is DISTINCTION. No one outside the voices in your head claimed otherwise. But if the origin of the rockets maker (Russia) has already been stated, and no one disputed that. And others have stated that it was a failure. which is the general consensus. Then why do you take this thread from:
“Yeah the koreans still have a lot to learn” and “This was the cause of the problem”
to
“Wangkon936′s Han addled head? korea “americas tar babies?” And of course Wangkon936 US citizens reminder.” The two of you took a fairly interesting thread completely off the rails. And it all started with “american rocket tech came from here and koreas rocket came, PREMADE from there.” comment. So what hidden Davinci code like double meaning, that only you can see, set you off. That’s what I need explained to me.
#30
Hi there dry. You sound like someone who know these things. How come the Russians or Americans don’t let playing clients launch their own rockets using sites like Baikonur for a fee? Is it do to safety concerns in case of rocket failure or what.
Sperwer conveniently neglects to mention the fact that for decades the US government prevented South Korea from developing any missiles with a range greater than 180 km until 2001. It was supposedly because of the fear that it might provoke North Korea into developing its own missiles and provoke an arms race. Turns out North Korea went ahead and did it anyway. Japan and China had already accomplished indigenous rocket development and satellite launches back in the 80s and 90s. Koreans fought against the US restrictions but even under the new Missile Control Regime, the cap on the range was raised to a measly 300 km.
If the restrictions and curtailment of national sovereignty were not imposed on an “unappreciative ally”, South Korea today would have a far more robust rocket program. But as it stands today, NK has a more advanced program than SK, thanks to the paternalistic meddling of the US.
#14
If the North Koreans in their paranoid bamboo curtain can build a…
For God’s sake, please don’t use the phrase “bamboo curtain”.
Hello Sperwer,
I don’t care to further hijack the thread any further. However, if you think that the Koreans are a fundamentally “cant” people, then it is my opinion that you don’t really know them too well. Considering your petulant reactions, maybe it’s just hard for people in general to get to know you all that well either.
Robert Goddard is of course important to the genesis and geneology of American’s rocket program but he died in 1945, meaning he did not play an active role in the development of rockets for the practical purposes of sending payloads into Earth’s upper atmosphere. Given that the aforementioned task was NARO’s stated goal, I thought I’d limit the discussion to research related to that field. In no way did I intend to purposely leave talk of Goddard out because I wanted to somehow show that Americans had no rocket expertise outside of the German scientists.
However, with that said, the Americans could not have send meaningful payloads (be it man, monkey, nuclear warhead or communications satellite) into space without German help. At the very least, America could not have done so at the pace of the Soviet Russians. If you disagree you can try to debate it, but it will be a debate that you would lose and lose badly. In any case, when you deride Koreans for seeking Russian help (btw, the Russians would simply not send engineers and schematics but insisted on building the boost phase themselves), I point out the irony and history to add balanced perspective and as a matter of fairness.
To close this comment, let me leave an interesting tid bit from the old Mad Magazine of my childhood. In a parody of the movie “The Right Stuff,” there is dialouge between two NASA researchers as to why the Russians got such a good head start since both the U.S. and the Russians had German scientists. One of the researchers said, “Well, yeah, but we make our German scientists work 40 hours a week. The Russians make their German scientists work 40 hours a day.” I share it purely for the sake of shits and giggles and nothing more…
sperwer’s angry old man antics aside, there’s little doubt that Korea will have a thriving space launch industry in a decade or two. It’s just a matter of committing the resources.
I mean, if the Norks can build a 3 stage ICBM…
#33: Most nations who get into the rocket building business intend to launch quite a few in the future, so they might as well invest in home turf (especially when it’s major dollars your dealing with). The actual satellite or whatever they want to put up really isn’t a priority in most cases.
However, one similar case I recall in this area was Italy getting the Indians to send up a load to space a while back, who I’m sure gave a much better deal than the Russians. Italy could have built the rocket too but it’d be more expensive and more risk in terms of handling and insurance on failure.
WangKon @ 36
I didn’t say that and don’t think that (all) Koreans are “fundamentally” a cant “people”. If you’re really sincrely psychologically-inclined, I recommend doctor that ye heal thyself first by asking and answering the questions why you instinctively choose to (i) interpret my very general statement as ascribing a characteristic to an entire group at the expense of the individuals that constitute it, and (ii) thereby slyly play the race card.
BTW, I do think that as a as a nation Korean discourse is infected with Babbitry to an extent and in a manner that is not exactly unique but unique in degree and the extent of ressentiment that it displays (and from which Korea as a collectivity draws so much of its energy). That is also true of (very) many Koreans, but I’m very far from indulging in the essentialist amd collective fallacies.
Actually, like a lot of US misbegotten meddling in Korean affairs, it was done to ensure that the South didn’t attack the North. I happen to agree that the US should not have bothered with Korea — then Koreans at least would have to accept unadulterated responsibility for the their peninsular messes.
Sperwer,
It looks like WK# has exposed you for the hater you are. He used up a whole deck of race cards on me so I am surprised he had any left for you.
My advice to you is to smoke or inject whatever drugs WK# takes, and just enjoy the trip. Turn on, tune in, drop out.
uh… it often takes many failures before they get it right. the reason why everybody flips out when North Korea pops a nuke is that if they keep on doing that, eventually they will succeed.
Just because it was done decades ago doesn’t mean that it would be done perfectly the first time by someone else. In many cases, they are reinventing the wheel.
Some think tank research associate told me that there are some problems in the US as the people who designed the hydrogen bomb are now all old, retired, and dying—the new generation of engineers didn’t design this from scratch. A lot of human knowledge is getting lost.
That’s pretty interesting comment coming from someone who thinks weed should be legalized:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2009/03/17/cullen-thomas-hashish-journey-on-natgeo-channel/
Derive from that what you will…
Shak: Thanks, but I can’t; I actually prefer my reality unvarnished.
Sperwer,
I request clarification. In # 40 you said that you don’t think that Koreans (as a whole?) are not a cant people. Okay, but you appear to have an overall opinion of Korea the nation and Koreans as a people. If it’s not cant or “petulant adolescents” is it babbitry? You know, the definition of babbitry isn’t really any better than cant or “petulant adolescents.” Why don’t you just let it all out in the open? Why hide behind layers of abstruse words?
So… correct me if I’m wrong, okay? You think a lot of Koreans are… whinny and hypocritical (cant), insolent or rude in speech or behavior (petulant) adolescents. Lastly, you think too many, if not most, are small-minded, provincial and smug (babbitry). You also think that the last description is the overarching characteristic of the nation as a whole?
Hey, I just want to make sure I got things right and I’m not make any undue assumptions. It’s certainly not like you’ve made any half-cocked assumptions about me.
Oh and for the record, I don’t think you are a racist or racial, but it appears very close to categorizing a lot of people under what is ultimately a presumption and generally that’s not very good.
WK#, all drugs should be legalized. Would President Obama be President now if he was put through the system like other black men that are in prison because of victimless drug crimes?
This is a no brainer. Anyone that would through a kid into prison with the butt slammers for smoking a joint or taking some MDMA is a tool.
*throw*
Shak, hey that’s fine. We are all entitled to our opinions. I just thought it was interesting that you would think that my views are tainted with drugs when you appear to be a declared fan. Per deductive logic, what does that mean about the quality and sensibility of your views?
Come ON there are no race cards what race cards ? I don’t see any, not coming from Wangkon. His haan has been diluted by the many drumfulls of 1% American milk or whatever he was raised on, and made him into a mild mannered Kyopo.
Let’s play the *age* card, for a refreshing change, because I am an adolescent.
Sperwer, are you really an angry *old* man? Why does everyone else say you are? Is your acquaintance the roomate of Dubya around your age? That make you older than my father.
Wangkon, you should just say 네 to Sperwer. Being han-addled but *respectful-of-elders* blood, age comes before everything in Korea, and ye old venerable Sperwer is right.
Seriously, he earned my respect with this that at least he doesn’t let his hate cloud his judgment from making true statements ^_^. A sign of true maturity,
Yuna, you are really an adolescent? Because that makes Hamel’s numerous attempts to take you out for a beer (ie, pick you up) absolutely creepy.
when did Hamel do that?
Yuna, probably on around 4 or 5 threads. You never responded. I guess he is beneath your notice.
Are you sure? I’ve never seen them.
Anyway, I was being figurative in more than one sense of the word.
I’m sure. But googling comments isn’t easy.
Never mind. Don’t try to.
It would be a pathetic story if you met your partner on Marmots Blog. Imagine…”When I met your father, we had opposing views on Tokdo….Then I managed to convince him I was right…”
Yuna: Yes, I’m older than your father (but I’m still a stud puppet
); but no, I don’t hate Korea or Koreans, even those elements of the culture of which (e.g., the matched vanity and insincerity that more often than not are components of the “Confucian” “respect” for elders), and those individuals, I find contemptible, and/or (in the latter case) comically ignorant and bumptious (not an occasion for anger – I very rarely get angry at anyone except myself and Korean motorists).
#57
Hey…um, stud puppet. I’m inclined to agree that “hatred” is too strong a word. Rather more like smug condescension, no?
What the hell is a stud puppet and which century was that “in”?
I’ve heard of a stud muffin but not a puppet.
If you are old, you shouldn’t be a stud anything.
Otherwise all I can imagine is those wrinkly loose skins hanging Granpa Simpson style around once well-built chest that the once-was-a-stud white men sport (like Micky Rourke)
Just being less grumpy would be enough.
WangKon @ 45
I’d like to oblige, were it feasible; but your education doesn’t seem to have equipped you with much more than an ability to look up dictionary definitions, which don’t begin to plumb the scope and subtlety of these concepts, e.g., for Babbitry (and cant) you could do – in fact you seem to have done – a lot worse than read Sinclair Lewis’ eponymously titled novel.
Ditto, for what I think is the Queen of Korean vices – han – which is just the local variant of ressentiment (resentment), for which being a wiki wanker isn’t completely useless; but you still need to read Beyond Good & Evil and On the Geneology of Morals and Scheler and Kierkegaard, and for the role of resentment in Korea’s sort of ethno-nationalism, Leah Greenfield (and then Giwook Shin’s book on Korean ethno-nationalism, so you can grasp how what Shin describes fits into the panorama of real history (instead of the blinkered academic social science perspective that Shin adopts)).
As for the other, (unlike most Koreans) I don’t think “Korean” culture is uni-dimensional, but only the ignorant, foolish or knavish would deny that there are one or two indigenous versions of what the academics would characterize as meta-narratives of Korean history (beginning with Sin Chae-ho’s mythologizing (on which see Henry Em’s interesting deconstruction)) that dominate both official and popular, as well as – in Korea itself – ostensibly critical academic – discourse. It’s meaninful to speak about such things, even if the weak-minded can’t distinguish between doing so and bogus racial stereotyping. Unfortunately, in order to do so, you need to use words and concepts that are not so much abstruse as simply the tools of discourse that is capable of making meaningful discriminations – or perhaps I should say distinctions, lest I’m misinterpreted.
oops. Maybe you’re not white. I’ve switched back to the wrong set of cards. Must get me me age cards back, leave the race cards out. must remember, must remember.
“I’ve heard of a stud muffin but not a puppet.”
Maybe he has a thing for Mizar….
Maybe he has a thing for Mizar….
Nah, he has a flaming man-crush on Brendon Carr. Or is it the other way around? A full-fledged bromance that. Sperwer’s talk of him getting pumped up at the gym and naked at the sauna gets Carr excited and vice versa.
#58
Smug, no; condescending, yes – at least towards those without the sand in their ballast tanks to lend them some gravitas when they attempt to get up on two legs — sort of like you, acting the vulgar, snout in the trough buffoon in #64.
Yuna @ 60: you are displaying an unseemly and very un-Confucian attitude toward your elders.
Re the substance; my wife, who is 15 years younger, would vigorously disagree with your assumption of what is becoming in a man (of any age).
As for appearances, I ain’t no simpson. This what i look like from the neck down; from the neck up I’m MUCH more handsome: http://www.fitren.com/
Yes I agree.. ^^ It’s the language, dangnam it. I would be much more polite if I had to use 존댓말 to you.
I dare not click on your link. Is it (elder) porn?
For the record, I’ve not seen our friend Sperwer at the gym or naked, nor do I hope to. I did see him once over lunch, bulging his way out of one of those UnderArmour shirts — which impressed me quite a bit as the man is nearly 60 (or is he 60?). Hanging around outside looking for Sperwer I saw him from the back and thought he was some 30 year-old GI and not my friend.
Anyway, I turn 40 on Saturday and I never was (or probably will be) in the shape this guy is in.
But I do think he’s lying to you about being “MUCH more handsome” than bodybuilder Tom Venuto from the neck up. That’s a lie. For one thing, Tom Venuto’s hair appears to be on his head and not sprouting from his ears, as Sperwer’s does.
B.Carr, do you have a notifier which emails/msgs you if someone mentions your name in a thread?
Maaaaan. FUCK. YOU.
If I was 30, 40 years old and this country offered me, a lowly immigrant, a decent native born wife 15 years my junior, I would be kissing the ground I’m standing on, on a daily basis. You are a true blue asshole of a person, SIR. That is all.
(if perchance your wife ain’t korean, please disregard this comment)
Actually, this one was due to Sperwer giving me a call for our daily phone sex circle jerk.
Sperwer,
It’s interesting that you claim a dictionary is not enough for me (or anyone else for that matter) to properly understand the “concepts” you are trying to convey. I’d wager that there are very few people here (or anywhere) that know what the three collective words of cant, petulant and babbitry mean without the help of a dictionary. Thus, it appears what you are saying is that you can’t convey your thoughts properly without using words that are not in the common English vernacular. Or it could be worse then that. The summary of your idea, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that I don’t have the education or mental capacity to understand what you are saying, thus why bother? Isn’t that a personal incredulity fallacy?
It’s odd though, but you don’t write like that on your blog. I’m guessing that your true rationale is that you like to be understood in your blog but you don’t want to be understood when you are presented with a difficult or uncomfortable question. It’s easier to punt.
Hahn as the “Queen of Korean Vices.” It is ironic that you believe that I have a problem understanding the previously mentioned non-vernacular words but you get the word “hahn” totally wrong. It doesn’t simply mean resentment and it is far more complex. There is an aspect of injustice to the word as well. Hahn rises because there was an initial oppression due to injustice or belief in an undeserved fate. Hahn in a modern setting and society can very well be counter productive. However, you either do not know or choose to ignore the positive aspects of hahn. Hahn keeps Koreans fighting Mongols, Jurchens or Japanese invaders behind a stone wall when all hope seems lost. Hahn rouses up farmers into guerilla units when invaders choose to rape the countryside. Hahn drives Korean entrepreneurs to crazy and ridiculous dreams to match Toyota or Sony only to see those dreams become reality. Hahn in years of brutal dictatorship and rigged elections roused up not only students, but also salarymen, housewives and grandmas to brave the riot police and demand Chun Do Hwan’s resignation. The hahn inside a Korean makes him say, “this isn’t right, I’m going to resist,” as well as “I’m not happy with where I am relative to the rest of my neighbors and I’m going to do something about it.”
Yes, hahn is primitive and even primordial. Essentially, it is a bit of a sociological vestigial tail. Korea will need to jettison it or at least its more primitive aspects as it dives deeper into the 21st century. However, hahn developed as a survival mechanism. It sprang into existence out of necessity. And although it may be a wholly inefficient vehicle, it drives Koreans to seek equality and equilibrium and try to reconcile a history that has certainly been difficult and often times unfair (be it by fate or design).
Well, I think you’re relatively intelligent; otherwise I wouldn’t be wasting time on you. But, yeah, you strike me as undereducated; the problem is not that I can’t express myself, but that you can’t readily understand what I’m saying because you lack the requisite cultural foundation. I’ve tried to point you in the right direction, but I’m not going to force you to drink.
I happen to agree with pretty much everything you say about han. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a vice of which, even as you suggest, Korean needs to rid itself to move forward in any possibly productive fashion.
Let’s see 30/15 — in other words you’re a short-eyed loser. Good luck in the joint.
Hope you remembered to shake the pom-pons when you wrote that.
Actually han is none of that. Han is “I resent you for forcing me to capitulate, to bend to your will, to accommodate your whims without complaint, but I have no choice but to do so. I’m a good sycophant. A collaborator beyond compare. And I despise you for rubbing my nose in my pitiful existence. But what can I do?”
I think that is another erroneous assumption on your end because my background is a lot more Western (or American, if you will) than you may think. But I also believe the above statement is more of a red herring too so whether you really believe it may be irrelevant.
@ # 75,
Selectively quoting to set-up your straw man is quite original considering this was in the paragraph immediately after:
WangKon @ 76
I really haven’t made any assumptions about your background; just a judgment based on your evident inability to understand and your persistence in clinging like a culturally drowning man to dead and dessicated dictionary definitions for all the concepts that are not really part of your life because of all the books you obviously haven’t read.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/08/113_50890.html
LMB hit just the right note in encouraging the Korean aerospace team to overcome the failure of the recent launch and not making the sort of hysterical claims about Korean prowess to which so many are prone in the MH.
Ok, if you insist, here are three more of your sentences that do nothing to define han, too.
‘Atta boy!
WK#,
How about not claiming special privileges on behalf of Koreans at all? Whenever there is something up, when Koreans are under the spotlight for something, there is always some sort of excuse for it followed by a demand for special treatment. Imagine other nationalities tried the same thing. It wouldn’t fly with Koreans. Koreans should stop trying to sell that kind of snake oil to foreigners.
# 78,
… or the books you obviously haven’t read either. Hey, it cuts both ways buddy.
Any ways, I don’t know if you are adding to the clarity. In one comment you said that I lacked “cultural foundation” and in another that I lack certain understanding of words you deem as salient. It appears that you alternate to whatever situation best suits your case. But seriously though, your belief that I lack the proper “cultural foundation,” what is that but an assumption of my background?
# 80,
You’re not worth it.
# 81,
I don’t recall ever claiming “special privileges” or asking for “special treatment” for Koreans. What I do recall is providing explanation in the historical and cultural context as to why Koreans act/behave the way they do. In other words, why not consider walking a mile in their moccasins? Hey, it’s a Koreancentric blog. I can ask people to consider it.
Back in college I needed to fill some bull crap elective units and instead of paying the hefty per unit sum at my university, I decided to fill the units at the local community college during the summer. I took a nebulously titled class called “Historical Sociology 20″ with Professor Steve Wallach and didn’t expect much. It was one of the best classes I had ever taken. Why? Because it helped open my mind.
Dr. Wallach was one of guys (got his PhD from Stanford) who taught at a community college because he didn’t want a gun to his head from the History Department to product “research” and working papers. He just wanted to teach. Any ways, he said that he wanted to teach world history from a “holistic” and “thematic” approach. In other words not just what certain groups did in certain periods of time but why they did it and why they did it in the manner it was done. So for example, why did the Sumerians have such a radically different view of the gods than the Egyptians? Why was the Sumerian ziggurat the center of religious life and the Egyptian pyramids just a big giant tombstone for dead kings? It all had to do with unpredictable flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates vs. the relative seasonal calm of the Nile. If Tigris and Euphrates floods quickly and destroys your home and kills family members, you are going to think that the gods are capricious and cruel. Since the ziggurat is the tallest thing in town, you are going to run to it, climb up on it and it will literally save your life. If a structure saves your life, it’s going to have a more emotional attachment with you. We also went into things like how were the Macedonians able to assrape the Persians, why is Islamic Fundamentalism the way it is, why did the Chinese always lose to the Northern Barbarians but how did the Chinese always end up winning in the end by making the Northern Barbarians Chinese, why did China become one big nation and Europe become a lot of little and medium sized nations, so on and so forth.
The biggest take away from the class for me was that people are people everywhere and start out being very similar and end up being very different from a cultural perspective because of the special and unique influences that these people go through over time. People are not inherently evil, stupid, mean or irrational, they just have a different definition of what evil, stupid, mean and irrational are from your definition (but it’s not to say there are not universal human standards either). When it comes to a bulk of comments on this blog about Korea I notice a lot of judging and not a lot of understanding. I think this is fundamentally flawed. If you judge a culture with a lot of initial prejudice you are doomed to never really understand it and if you don’t understand it, your credibility to judge it is seriously compromised.
As a side note, I think the Koreans (as a whole) do a terrible job in explaining themselves to the rest of the world. The many commenters here certainly take the time to point it out with many humorous (and sometimes mean) anecdotes. So at the end of the day the Koreans themselves certainly do share some of the blame for the low opinion that some circles have of them.
Name one that’s germane to the discussion at hand.
Sure, but first perhaps you can do me the favor of addressing the question I posed for you in # 45. I think I’ve been more than agreeable in addressing issues posed to me and being responsive. I’d like you to reciprocate.
So, please do tell me and everyone else here just how you feel about Korea and (too?) many Koreans in plain, understandable language. Please think in terms of “USA Today” style English so it can be understandable to a wide audience. Yes, I understand that it may be a challenge for you to stoop down to the level of the average English speaker and soil yourself in the koine lingua of the unwashed masses, but for clarity’s sake can you please take a stab at it for little ole’ us?
Ok, as a culture (not every individual, and other elements of the culture notwithstanding), Korea is “afflicted” with Han; it has chosen to follow and wallow in a state of stupefying resentment that, notwithstanding its undeniable contribution to the survival and relatively primitive development of the group, was not the only or necessary survival and development option but a choice that is now demonstrably counterproductive. Is that simple-minded enough for you?
Gong! Time’s up contestant WangKon; I’m gone for the weekend.
nice.
@Wangkon:
Community colleges are underrated. I attended one on a full-tuition scholarship after high school before transferring to a university and was very happy with the professors. A lot of university students would take math classes for transfer credit because learning math was easier in a class of 25 students taught by an experienced full-time professor compared to a lecture hall of 300 staffed by an overworked grad student with unclear English.
Where on the planet besides a certain campus in Philadelphia is a Princeton grad considered lowly?
Pony up with real pics, so I can compare your chest and abs to Mark Sisson’s. You can swirly blur your face and hairy ears.
WK#,
If you ACTUALLY did what you describe, then you would be an insightful commenter that spreads enlightenment among the unwashed masses. However, as far as I can see you are mainly a cheerleader for some of the most fucked up things that Koreans do or say.
Why do Koreans insist on renaming the Sea of Japan to the East Sea? I know – even though I do not accept the premise as rational or fair. Do you know? There are answers there that are helpful in understanding the Korean mentality. Anyway, I WISH you were the kind of person you describe in your comment.
#88: They’re probably underrated because the education quality isn’t consistent…some are indeed excellent and worth more than many undergrad programs in even Ivy league schools. Others might offer programs that are barely more comprehensive than similar offerings from a decent high school.
The concept of han has gone from a simple meaning of spirit to something far more ambiguous due to the mentally lazy ascribing random bullshit that is seemingly too difficult (which it is not) to rationalize. Must stop brewing and drinking the han-flavoured Kool-Aid guys…
#90: Also shak, perhaps it’s been awhile since you’ve had a conversation outside of the virtual word, and note that I’m not disagreeing on your stance about wk…just saying…but in general, when you ask someone a question to determine which ‘side’ they’re on, say the cheerleaders vs the bench warmers (excuse me if I screwed up the analogy, I never really concerned myself with parts that didn’t involve playing the damn sport), you usually wait for them to answer the question…not before the question is asked.
Well-read, book-quoting tossers, who brandish their elite education about, and who think everyone except themselves is wrong and stupid can be dunce-like, tiresome stubborn in everyday life, therefore considered lowly to live with by certain kind of women.
See? I read that, and I see absolutely no difference from what Wangkon’s been saying all along. Except he chooses more often than not to emphasize the bit that follows your “notwithstanding” most times to counter the other derogatory comments, i.e. there is no case for argument here.
Gong? I didn’t know I was in some sort of formal contest. Perhaps in your mind it is? My life does not revolve around yours so I can write up my response on timing that’s convenient for me. You can view my response on timing that’s convenient for you.
Here’s some books for you:
- The Idea of Human Dignity in Korea, Hyung-Kon Kim.
- Korea and Its Futures, Roy Richard Grinker.
- Home was the Land of Morning Calm, K. Connie Kang.
Some books that I have not read meaning pieces of but I hear are good:
- Writing the Body of Ghost: The Concept of Han in Contemporary Korean Literature, Jiwon Shin
- A Modern History of Korean Philosophy, Min-hong Chʾoe
Btw… have a nice weekend.
Yes Yuna… I almost thought it was borderline plagiarism!..
Which is why I think if Sperwer toned (like his toned abs) his tone down, then we’ll all get along like happy children in sunshine, but that won’t be so interesting for a blog, as “the sound of one hand clapping” demonstrated by Bart Simpson.
Hahaha. How much drug must you do to be convinced of such a fallacy?
# 92,
I have to agree with you on that a bit. Shak will state his view, then set-up a bit of a straw man that may not even apply to the situation. His last comment illustrates the point well. I accuses me of being the defender of Korean pride or what not and then he asks me about the East Sea thing. The problem is I haven’t even given the East Sea issue a whole lot of thought because I don’t agree with the Korean side. He really shouldn’t lump me (or anyone else for that matter) into packages that may not apply.
Yuna,
Based on his style of writing, I think Sperwer is just a crabby guy and at his age he’s not going to change. He’s either got a low opinion of himself and transfers it on to people he disagrees with or he has an overstated opinion of himself and disdains the people that dare to see things differently than his “superior” and correct viewpoint. In either case, from as far as I can tell, he doesn’t seem to respect people who disagree with him. In my opinion, that’s hardly democratic and might not even be healthy. Undue anger breeds hypertension!
WK#,
No, I don’t know what you think about the East Sea, nor did I make an assertion to that effect. What I did say was that you are a cheerleader for “some of the most fucked up things that Koreans do or say”. The question I asked about the East Sea still stands because the answer helps us understand the reason why you would insist that the Japanese tea ceremony is actually Korean, and was created by Koreans, as you do here -
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2008/06/12/japanese-also-get-a-kick-out-of-celebs-in-native-garb/#comment-161397
Why do Koreans and people of Korean heritage so willing to believe such fictions? It is a rhetorical question I do not really expect you to reflect upon.
Oops! You did it again!
Nowhere did I ever say that the Japanese tea ceremony is actually Korean and was created by Koreans. What I said was that Sen Rikyū contributed a lot to the development of the tea ceremony and at the time I believed him to be a third generation Korean Japanese.
However, today I will put what I thought a year ago into doubt because the book I cited from (written by non-Koreans Dr. Jon and Alan Covell) didn’t cite a primary source. However, the Covells did write a book entitled “Zen at Daitokuji” which was about the Buddhist temple that Sen had built to further develop his tea tradition so they may have relied on primary sources that they had compiled themselves. So today I’d doubt it but I wouldn’t discredit it entirely.
Shakuhachi, your argument shifting made me burst out laughing. East Sea, oh no, it’s actually the tea ceremony you meant…
And your 집착, it’s just, amazing. Such a waste to use it to badmouth a group of people.
I’ve come across three styles of arguing. Fair, dirty, and WTF-plain-wrong.
I think you only use the last two.
What’s it going to be next? Tado? Tokdo? Kendo? Aikido? Taekwondo? 붓글씨? Kimbab? Kimchi? Okonomiyaki? Omurice? The Do of wearing slippers in bathrooms?
Nobody is believing anything but that you are a twat if you insist on your crusade the way you carry on.
It’s basically the same thing. Giving Koreans credit for whatever the Japanese did. And don’t forget your baseless assertions about what Japanese people would say about Mas Oyama and Masayoshi Son. Stop projecting.
Read wikipedia. His history is an open book.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/千利休
By the way his real name is Tanaka. Sen is an assumed name. Using the characters of his name to try to create a link to Korea and Korean names is therefore pointless.
Yuna,
What I wrote is –
WK# was saying that he explains things thoughtfully. So I challenged him to explain why Koreans insist that the name of the Sea of Japan must be changed to the East Sea. I admit that I doubt he has any thoughtful explanation for it. Anyway, it is not a shift. WK# said he had never thought about the issue. So I gave him one that he couldn’t dodge.
Maybe you would care to explain why Koreans want to rename the Sea of Japan internationally into the East Sea?
Robert, one of my comments is lost somewhere. I tried to post again but it wouldn’t let me, saying it is a duplicate.
Because some of them have nothing better to do but a lot of 집념, like you ^^.
Yuna,
OK, I have a lot of 집념 but someone like WK# that searches obscure books for assertions of Korean superiority over Japan is completely normal and nothing odd at all.
By the way, I looked at the amazon page for the book he is talking about in this thread –
http://www.amazon.com/Korean-Impact-Japanese-Culture-History/product-reviews/0930878345/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
And WK# has a review of it. Interestingly, it contains a very condensed version of the reason why Koreans insist on changing the name of the Sea of Japan to the East Sea.
Bold emphasis added by me.
I think it’s because you clicked “submit” too quickly. The blog might think you are a bot.
Any ways, I’m not trying to dodge anything and I think I’ve been very consistent and responsive to all the questions presented by Sperwer and yourself. You also say that I’ve “never” given it any thought. Again, that’s not what I said. I said that I didn’t give it “a whole lot of thought.”
Personally, I think Korean attempts to get the world to change maps into the East Sea is a waste of time, energy and quite frankly, credibility. So I would agree with you that Korean attempts to do so do make them look somewhat comical to the rest of the world per my last paragraph in # 82.
Why do they persist? In my opinion I think it’s because they believe that due to Japan’s superior position vs. Korea in the early 20th century the maps were named at a time when Korea was unfairly dominated by Japan. Could this be linked to “han?” Probably. As I said before, there are negative and positive attributes of “han” and this example probably fits in one of the negative manifestations.
This is getting tedious shak. What’s your point?
The next sentence of that review says:
Why leave this next bit out which presents him as quite a level headed reviewer? That’s what qualifies you as a dirty arguer.
Anyway. Shaku, what are your views on the Chinese and Koreans dispute over the naming of Mount Paekdu vs Changbai and also the (dormant) territory dispute?
WangKon936, you need to go back further than the 20th century to find the reason for it. The reason you give is the ordinary Korean one, but it doesn’t really explain why. You gave the reason in your book review. The reason is the way Koreans perceive relationships in East Asia.
Yuna,
I wasn’t aware there is a naming dispute over the mountain, but how about Koreans call it what they want to call it, Chinese do the same, and we English speakers call the mountain by whatever we customarily call it (usually the name of a European that “discovered” it).
All I see is a whole lot of non sequiturs from you. I won’t respond to that.
I’m going to enjoy my weekend now and I hope you do too.
Lates.
Very interesting. that you were not aware that there was such dispute:
http://www.japanfocus.org/-Yonson-Ahn/2483
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baekdu_Mountain#Recent_disputes
and why such a laissez faire attitude compared to your usual one? I think you should add it to your collection of Koreans laying claim to ridiculous things and things which do not belong to them, otherwise, people might think you were just arguing from a Japanophile’s viewpoint. I implore you, please, side with the Chinese following your usual logic.. – there is no other name in which the Western people can call it by, not like the Liacourt Rocks or whatever.
Paekdu is the spiritual home/mountain of the Koreans (both N and S) and along with the East Sea, it appears on the first line of our national anthem,
“동해물과 백두산이 마르고 닳도록..
“Till the East Sea dries up, and Mount Paekdu flattens out”
As with all things, there are subtexts, what you see is not what you get.
For me, personally, I couldn’t give an rat’s arse if the East Sea was called Eau de Toilette, but I was rather shocked when the Chinese builder workmen I’d come across in London were smoking “ChangBaiShan” brand cigarettes….
http://kr.blog.yahoo.com/himggey/1320226.html?p=1&t=2
Yuna,
I spent the other day arguing with a Korean about “Gando” (Chinese Yanbian). If you insist on talk of ‘sides’, I suppose you could say I took the Chinese side on that occasion, although I prefer to see it as coming down on the side of the facts. As for this naming dispute between China and Korea regarding this mountain that you speak of, it kind of reminds me of what Henry Kissinger said about university politics – “University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small.”
Then what your(and Gerry’s) stakes are has been my question from the beginning.
Sounds good to me. I find it interesting that Koreans fuss over some foreign-language place names, even going to the extent of a public awareness campaign to get the Chinese to call Korea’s capital 首尔 (shou-er) instead of the Joseon era name of 汉城. Nobody in or from the US gives a toss that the Chinese call San Francisco 旧金山, or Old Gold Mountain. Korea is a country where the media sparred with former US Ambassador Vershbow over the Hangeul spelling of his name before he diplomatically caved in. Contrast this with the media in English-speaking countries, which usually respect the chosen English spellings of the names of public persons regardless of their phonological accuracy.
Koreans reserve the right to decide unilaterally all Korean-language names of people, places, and things foreign and Koreans want to determine unilaterally English or other foreign-language renderings of people, places, and things Korean. At least the Koreans are generous enough not dictate to foreigners how to spell people, places, and things foreign in their own languages.
Sonagi, is 旧金山 a reference to the California gold rush? If so, I find that quite charming and is a good vision of the Chinese mindset when the city was named by the Chinese.
Yuna, got around to reading the links you wrote. It isn’t really a naming dispute described, but rather differing views of history. Of this, I was already aware. South Korea apologised for their team politicizing the Asian games and holding up a sign saying that “Bekdu is our land”.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=488
It is hard to know what South Koreans want in this instance. They seem to be saying “it’s our sacred mountain. Screw your documents and books. There is no room for different points of view. Only our point of view is valid”. Korea will cave on this issue in the end anyway.
“…let me leave an interesting tid bit from the old Mad Magazine of my childhood. In a parody of the movie “The Right Stuff,…”
When I was a kid, they were spoofing “2001′ and “Clockwork Orange”. I’m old.
WangKon @ 95
I’ve read all those, including the ones you have not, except the Shin Ghost book, which I’ve never heard of and can’t find. Is there such a book?
Subject to the last qualification, they all are interesting and useful as sources of data about “han”, but none is particularly good in an interpretive/analytical sense.
BTW I’m disappointed that your only apparent reaction to my #85 is yet another petulent ad hominem slur – your #100 attempt to enlist Yuna in a circle-jerk of ethnic solidarity. I don’t object to ad hominem attacks per se, only such petty, weak and impertinent (i.e., irrelevant) ones as your puerile one.
1. http://books.google.com/books?id=JVhRHAAACAAJ&dq=Writing+the+Body+of+Ghost&client=firefox-a
2. I recommended them because based on your early description of “han” I thought you had a very superficial understanding of it. I still think you have an incomplete understanding of it, especially if you think it’s the Queen of Korean vices. Personally, I think the Queen of Korean vices is what Michael Breen calls the Disease of the White Envelope.
3. You are being a tad bit paranoid. I don’t care what ethnicity Yuna is. I was actually telling her that you won’t change who you are and that she shouldn’t waste her time making the attempt. For you to make the attempt to make an “ethnic” connection is an ad hominem slur on your end. It is beyond presumptuous and premature to make that kind of accusation just because two people communicating happen to share an ethnicity.
4. I did respond to your #85 with my # 96, which is a tongue and cheek way of largely agreeing with a good chunk of what you wrote. Now, for the benefit of all us “simple minded” folk, was that (# 85) so hard to write?
Not hard, just uninterestingly simple-minded.
That’s the King.
I mention you’re speaking to and trying to forge a connection with another Korean and you whine that’s an ad hominem racist slur? Classic despicable “han” conduct.
Observing ethnic coalition building is… racism. Koreans never organise along ethnic lines, or seek support from each other.
Well, your original accusation was false. So, I responded to it by pointing out the hypocrisy. What I was originally trying to do is help out an inexperienced MH commenter with what may be an inaccurate impression. Yuna thought you had more “mature” qualities than you may actually have for which I reminded her that she might be wrong.
If this example is the best you can find, it’s pretty weak. You’ll notice that I also get into cahoots, if you will, with dry in the comment immediately before. Too bad he’s not Korean otherwise Shak could bring up the “ethnic” coalition building accusation as well.
If this is a tactic of mine, I must use it regularly, right? Can you find any more examples of me closing ranks with other ethnic Koreans here at MH? How about this example? My response to KoreanSentry’s comment where I most certainly reject the invitation via a strong refutation.
What? Sneaky ad hominem attacks? From Japanophiles?
What is this world coming to…
Who are you calling a Japanophile? I trust it’s not me, ’cause I’m no partisan of any polity except the star-spangled banner one
Sorry — wasn’t referring to you, Sperwer.
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